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WotC was taking it very slow with Grief, but it is somewhat excusable and i want to give them the benefit of the doubt that the froggy is actually more powerfull thene expected. As someone who has played Legacy for a long ass time, we all need to take a step back and reevaluate how some of the "legacy stables" have infinite scaling with new cards and therefore deceptivly are much more powerfull then they ever were. In detail the main offenders are Reanimate and Daze. Reanimate is simply underpriced by one mana, and they was ok back when it was used to combo kill someone turn 2 or 3 but now it combo kills, is ultimate disruption, protection and tempo while also beeing a value play combined with the troll. This card will enable new creatures, getting those banned in the process of removing the actual problem. Its the power equivalent of counterspell costing only 1 mana. Daze is be cultprint of multiple cards getting banned while itself has reached such a phenomenal powerlevel its unreal. With the speed and power of the format ramping up, this card actually reads as "0 Mana, return a island back to hand, counter target spell". Its powerlevel is opperesive and progeressivly gets used to protect combo instead of stoping it. If its not banned together with Grief we will see UB delver bully the format after having already become used to Delver+Daze beeing the best strategy for the past one and a half decades. It has become more powerfull then then Gush as it got banned.
@@ZoRaNKaesebrot maybe, but what about reanimator? Considering it's the card that's actually causing a lot of trouble (alongside Grief), I honestly think banning it is more rational than banning Grief since it also contributes to the reanimator portion of the deck.
After 10 years of weekly legacy, I havent played in almost a year. Honestly not sure I am coming back at this point. The FIRE design broke it for me. 1 rings and bowmasters where kinda the end for me. This podcast makes me feel like I made that right call.
I ❤️ Psychic Frog. During MH3 spoiler season I know it got a bit of attention but sort of flew under the radar too. There was a guy named Max on eternal durdles podcast and he was the first guy I heard that was like this card is nuts and is going to supercharge rescanimator and he mentioned all the same things u guys did. UB for both grief/force, pitches fatties or unimpactful cards, makes for difficult combat steps, closes out games fast, AND draws u cards!
Gut shot doesn’t really work because they can play around it if they know it’s coming, but there are points on the chain where it’s much better to do it (I was testing this). Often doing it in response to the first manamorphose, borne, or Valakut causes them to not have enough left in hand to re-fire, especially if you are a deck that they might board out some protection against. It’s also nice to have something that pops the chancellor.
I also think this is only good if you’re at the first event after mh3 where you know ~50% of the local players want to play necro (which is what we did). There are better options if you aren’t playing 10 sideboard cards for storm.
What if strix serenade had a claus that said “ if you have no lands on the battlefield you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost. When this spell is cast this way, counter target creature spell if no mana was spent to cast it.” This way it’s not a dead card the rest of the time.
And yet again a card has to die because it is abused by the monolithic blue shell. Great idea. Wonder what non blue card will be next when this happens again. And again. And again.
Anyone here after the most recent weekly mtg stream where they doubled down on the B&R being in a few more weeks even when there are new RCQ seasons starting and other major legacy events?
I’d prefer Reanimate gone. I think with Grief gone, your black count can go down and the blue count can go up, improving the consistency (and the deck doesn’t need to worry about getting Grief’ed)
Grief was reprinted in MH3 and may be pushing sales because of its performance in legacy right now, so no way Wizards is going to shoot their prize pig in the foot this close to release. Let the set sell for a couple more months and then ban it, this is a business.
They said that there were no big Legacy tournaments coming up, but at know that's not true. There are over half a dozen 5ks between now and late August
While I do think Grief is currently a huge problem, the card was in the format for a LONG time and no one batted an eye at it. I take more of a Phil from Eternal Durdles opinion, in that, there are systemic problems in Legacy that are never on the chopping block, but maybe should be. Grief is an annoying card, and if it got banned, it would be justified, but that's only putting a band-aid on the bullet wound which is the Wasteland/Daze Tempo decks always coming back with a vengeance and making it miserable for everyone else.
Hah. I was going to downvote your comment but then you added "Deathrite Shaman." That's the only one not broken of Grief, Shaman and Ragavan... and, honestly, it could probably fix the format a bit with the maindeck graveyard hate for Scam and passive ramp for midrange decks.
@@derekcline950its very hard to balance things when the whole format is filled with broken stuff. While i do agree free spells are obviously overly powerful theres multiple of them.
I'm obviously in the minority at this point, but I'm still not convinced Grief is too powerful or oppressive for Legacy. It was never remotely a problem for the 1.5 years before LOTR came out. I think other additions (*cough* Orcish Bowmasters *cough*) buffed the black shell around Grief and helped to suppress some of the card advantage decks that could check Grief in the metagame. It doesn't really matter that UB decks are sideboarding Orcish Bowmasters when everyone still has to play/build around it.
I think grief has just gotten more and more tools to support the scam shell over time, and those tools on their own aren't ban worthy. Troll is a land drop that can be another threat, bow-masters punishes decks that want to go longer than scam, and recently psychic frog has bolstered the shell, patching its main weaknesses. I dont think any of those cards are as ban worthy or degenerate as grief is.
Imo orcish bowmasters isn't op. It reigns in so many op cards it's a staple. It single handedly made gameplay more complex and less "insert brainstorm" delver shell centric That said I don't feel grief needs a ban in Legacy.
The difference imo is OBM actually creates dynamic gameplay and back and forth, I enjoy the gameplay patterns of the card even when I don't have it in my own deck (which is often) Grief does the opposite and I've never had a fun or engaging experience with or against the card. It goes out of its way to create non games and is just miserable on the draw especially when backed up with Daze + Wasteland to stop you from clawing back into the game
I'm not against the grief ban to be clear. I do feel like some of the points missed. If it's not fun so that is one of many reasons it should be banned. Necrodominance is not fun. Losing turn 0 is not fun. If a lot of people are playing it, there has to be a large group of people that like it, so they would need to be careful to not upset the other side of the isle.
Okay question, why doesn't anyone play Leyline of Sanctity in the side for Rescaminator? if you're a deck that can't handle getting double thoughtseized twice on turn one, wouldn't leyline just fix that? It's a pre-game effect, so it outracecs turn 1 Grief even on the draw. Now I get that this makes it harder to side in for the reanimation half of the deck, but plenty of white decks have good maindeck anti graveyard play. And I can especially see this working with all the good white cards in the format right now from MH3. Leyline doesn't even require you to cast it, so you don't need to warp your manabase around it all that often. this does leave red decks like Moon Stompy in a ditch, but if white decks can work against rescaminator even a little, there might be room for other decks to come in.
i would prefer Reanimate to go, as i agree with Brian that it's the flexibility to floop Atraxa into play on top of a grief 3-for-3 that really puts the deck over the top. but i've been playing Grief/Ephemerate in my black/white decks for years now, i know i'm biased. i do think if Grief gets banned there will be no viable black/white decks again (no, i am not counting bowmaster taxes :P)
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Lol not me about to search for pitch trap thinking it was a real card. Got me there Bosh.
~31min "waze and daistland"
Dr Spooner dites the bust again!
Leave my dyslexia alone! 😩😂
i heard it too
This is funny, Grief+Reanimate is a problem because it fits in many shells, but Brainstorm+Daze is perfectly fine:)
The daze wasteland shell doesn’t strip your best 2 cards before you can even play a land ...
@@joecheif3080 Force of Will doesnt need lands.
Same silly argument.
Daze ensures once you are ahead you always will.
Calling Grief “dummy thicc” is not something I was expecting to hear
WotC was taking it very slow with Grief, but it is somewhat excusable and i want to give them the benefit of the doubt that the froggy is actually more powerfull thene expected.
As someone who has played Legacy for a long ass time, we all need to take a step back and reevaluate how some of the "legacy stables" have infinite scaling with new cards and therefore deceptivly are much more powerfull then they ever were. In detail the main offenders are Reanimate and Daze.
Reanimate is simply underpriced by one mana, and they was ok back when it was used to combo kill someone turn 2 or 3 but now it combo kills, is ultimate disruption, protection and tempo while also beeing a value play combined with the troll. This card will enable new creatures, getting those banned in the process of removing the actual problem. Its the power equivalent of counterspell costing only 1 mana.
Daze is be cultprint of multiple cards getting banned while itself has reached such a phenomenal powerlevel its unreal. With the speed and power of the format ramping up, this card actually reads as "0 Mana, return a island back to hand, counter target spell". Its powerlevel is opperesive and progeressivly gets used to protect combo instead of stoping it. If its not banned together with Grief we will see UB delver bully the format after having already become used to Delver+Daze beeing the best strategy for the past one and a half decades. It has become more powerfull then then Gush as it got banned.
I like this take. I play Delver and I enjoy Dazing spells, but it is clearly a power level outlier.
Go ahead and playtest the format without Daze in it.
Daze is a net positive.
@@ZoRaNKaesebrot maybe, but what about reanimator? Considering it's the card that's actually causing a lot of trouble (alongside Grief), I honestly think banning it is more rational than banning Grief since it also contributes to the reanimator portion of the deck.
After 10 years of weekly legacy, I havent played in almost a year. Honestly not sure I am coming back at this point. The FIRE design broke it for me. 1 rings and bowmasters where kinda the end for me. This podcast makes me feel like I made that right call.
I ❤️ Psychic Frog. During MH3 spoiler season I know it got a bit of attention but sort of flew under the radar too. There was a guy named Max on eternal durdles podcast and he was the first guy I heard that was like this card is nuts and is going to supercharge rescanimator and he mentioned all the same things u guys did. UB for both grief/force, pitches fatties or unimpactful cards, makes for difficult combat steps, closes out games fast, AND draws u cards!
I'm excited to play Frog in Delver once Grief is banned :)
Gut shot doesn’t really work because they can play around it if they know it’s coming, but there are points on the chain where it’s much better to do it (I was testing this). Often doing it in response to the first manamorphose, borne, or Valakut causes them to not have enough left in hand to re-fire, especially if you are a deck that they might board out some protection against. It’s also nice to have something that pops the chancellor.
I also think this is only good if you’re at the first event after mh3 where you know ~50% of the local players want to play necro (which is what we did). There are better options if you aren’t playing 10 sideboard cards for storm.
What if strix serenade had a claus that said “ if you have no lands on the battlefield you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost. When this spell is cast this way, counter target creature spell if no mana was spent to cast it.” This way it’s not a dead card the rest of the time.
I hope Grief stays. I play Rescaminator in paper
And yet again a card has to die because it is abused by the monolithic blue shell. Great idea. Wonder what non blue card will be next when this happens again. And again. And again.
Exactly! As long as blue is the strongest colour everything is fine.
Leyline of Sanctity is a turn 0 answer that has broader value against discard, burn, edicts, tendrils
Anyone here after the most recent weekly mtg stream where they doubled down on the B&R being in a few more weeks even when there are new RCQ seasons starting and other major legacy events?
I’d prefer Reanimate gone. I think with Grief gone, your black count can go down and the blue count can go up, improving the consistency (and the deck doesn’t need to worry about getting Grief’ed)
Grief was reprinted in MH3 and may be pushing sales because of its performance in legacy right now, so no way Wizards is going to shoot their prize pig in the foot this close to release. Let the set sell for a couple more months and then ban it, this is a business.
They said that there were no big Legacy tournaments coming up, but at know that's not true. There are over half a dozen 5ks between now and late August
17:04 what a juicy Bosh pack just popping OFF
I love Frog in Timeless but man, it misses wasteland I think
Couldnt agree more, Grief is incredibly obnoxious to play against
While I do think Grief is currently a huge problem, the card was in the format for a LONG time and no one batted an eye at it. I take more of a Phil from Eternal Durdles opinion, in that, there are systemic problems in Legacy that are never on the chopping block, but maybe should be. Grief is an annoying card, and if it got banned, it would be justified, but that's only putting a band-aid on the bullet wound which is the Wasteland/Daze Tempo decks always coming back with a vengeance and making it miserable for everyone else.
All the power is in blue. Grief is not broken. Its a 2 for 1 and its a 3/2.
Bring back Ragavan and Deathrite Shaman. Let other colours have fun.
Hah. I was going to downvote your comment but then you added "Deathrite Shaman." That's the only one not broken of Grief, Shaman and Ragavan... and, honestly, it could probably fix the format a bit with the maindeck graveyard hate for Scam and passive ramp for midrange decks.
@@derekcline950its very hard to balance things when the whole format is filled with broken stuff.
While i do agree free spells are obviously overly powerful theres multiple of them.
I'm obviously in the minority at this point, but I'm still not convinced Grief is too powerful or oppressive for Legacy. It was never remotely a problem for the 1.5 years before LOTR came out. I think other additions (*cough* Orcish Bowmasters *cough*) buffed the black shell around Grief and helped to suppress some of the card advantage decks that could check Grief in the metagame. It doesn't really matter that UB decks are sideboarding Orcish Bowmasters when everyone still has to play/build around it.
Completely agree. Grief was just fine until til it was jammed into decks with brainstorm and ponder .
I think grief has just gotten more and more tools to support the scam shell over time, and those tools on their own aren't ban worthy. Troll is a land drop that can be another threat, bow-masters punishes decks that want to go longer than scam, and recently psychic frog has bolstered the shell, patching its main weaknesses. I dont think any of those cards are as ban worthy or degenerate as grief is.
Imo orcish bowmasters isn't op. It reigns in so many op cards it's a staple.
It single handedly made gameplay more complex and less "insert brainstorm" delver shell centric
That said I don't feel grief needs a ban in Legacy.
The difference imo is OBM actually creates dynamic gameplay and back and forth, I enjoy the gameplay patterns of the card even when I don't have it in my own deck (which is often)
Grief does the opposite and I've never had a fun or engaging experience with or against the card. It goes out of its way to create non games and is just miserable on the draw especially when backed up with Daze + Wasteland to stop you from clawing back into the game
@@TheGingervit1s 100%
"No changes" was a big miss from Wizards. I'm just lucky that no one at my LGS plays Rescam
Good time to play Premodern
Hey hey. No no. This grief has got to go. (To the tune of a high school cheerleading chant)
I'm not against the grief ban to be clear. I do feel like some of the points missed.
If it's not fun so that is one of many reasons it should be banned. Necrodominance is not fun. Losing turn 0 is not fun.
If a lot of people are playing it, there has to be a large group of people that like it, so they would need to be careful to not upset the other side of the isle.
I may be wrong , but I think a lot of people are playing it because it’s objectively good , not necessarily because they like it
Okay question, why doesn't anyone play Leyline of Sanctity in the side for Rescaminator?
if you're a deck that can't handle getting double thoughtseized twice on turn one, wouldn't leyline just fix that? It's a pre-game effect, so it outracecs turn 1 Grief even on the draw.
Now I get that this makes it harder to side in for the reanimation half of the deck, but plenty of white decks have good maindeck anti graveyard play.
And I can especially see this working with all the good white cards in the format right now from MH3.
Leyline doesn't even require you to cast it, so you don't need to warp your manabase around it all that often. this does leave red decks like Moon Stompy in a ditch, but if white decks can work against rescaminator even a little, there might be room for other decks to come in.
i would prefer Reanimate to go, as i agree with Brian that it's the flexibility to floop Atraxa into play on top of a grief 3-for-3 that really puts the deck over the top. but i've been playing Grief/Ephemerate in my black/white decks for years now, i know i'm biased. i do think if Grief gets banned there will be no viable black/white decks again (no, i am not counting bowmaster taxes :P)
This one gone be good
Been waiting for this
team ban reanimate!!
Team ban Brainstorm and Daze