Just a thought, so with a tapered board, your front foot will be higher than your back foot when tilting the board on edge (further away from the snow). This rotates your body in the opposite direction to the turn! Meaning the momentum of your body is not actually following your edge direction, its offset, pulling you down the hill! Like understeer!
It only is a small movement and your body's opposing movement carries a lot of momentum tha will not be reversed, just decelerated earlier and more. I would think all that results in is an extra bit of pressure on the front section of the edge. 🤔
@@warrens4808 You must be riding channel boards! 😂 But seriously, the millimeters of extra lever to your disadvantage for the front foot on a tapered (and wide) board would be something I would acknowledge to potentially affect a (especially not front foot heavy) rider. But above comment was about the momentum it would cause, which is the fractional change in angle resulting from a few millimeter (half the taper) change at the end of what would be half the stance width of "lever". Now, if you managed to simulate that movement on a non-taper board a very introspective rider, like some pro racer on his training hill will indeed likely feel at least "something being off". But what I am saying is, that compared to the other effects of the taper, it is (just from a physics standpoint) rather insignificant.
Hi Lars, can’t tell you how much I love your channel and how educational you are for the whole community so thank you. Having been based in Japan for 20 years I have ridden A lot of gentems and counter-intuitively they generally require a lot of front foot weight. The progressive sidecut in the tail as you mentioned can be quite sharply progressive so overweighting it can create a strange washing on the tail. They are a board more sensitive to weighting than anything else. The TT still exists which is basically a cult board here because of its lack of sidecut and the need for the driver to do everything through weighting. In Japan they often call boards manual (stick shift in the US) or automatic. The idea of the manual board is the driver is doing the input and not being guided by the sidecut and they love the process of managing and learning the manual boards like the TT. It is like a craftsman not relying on their tools and that is the beauty of a TT as it gives the rider freedom to express his turn but completely dependent on his skill. But definitely boards, like you say, the hornet not for the steeps, but that is why they have boards like the floater, magic 38 and speed master. As you say all an excuse to build a quiver. Thanks so so much
That is so interesting to hear about the front foot thing!! Wow!! I've only ever experienced tail wash on such boards when really riding the front. The progressive sidecut would definitely change that a bit. Dang.... now I want to try more Gentems!!! :-) I can totally relate to manual vs. automatic!!! Beautifully put! If the TT came in a wide, I'd own one. Been staring at that board forever!! I love a larger radius and making things happen myself. Thanks for such a thoughtful comment! Love it!
Yes I have bigger feet too so can’t ride the TT but the Slasher ii came out and is a similar board but with more sidecut. Definitely a learning process. Have a Makrill, tree surfer and pipeliner 2 (mainly from your influence) and I definitely find myself more backfoot (and lazy) on the Makrill as it turns so well than with my gentems which need this very gradual shift through the turns. If you have a chance watch videos featuring Kazushige Fujita a gentem rider who makes some of the most beautiful turns but definitely isn’t back foot like the Moss snow stick riders. The other thing that the international riders don’t understand about Gentem is they are designed to be tuned by artisans shops like T-tune in Hokkaido or Relax Snowsurf north of Tokyo. How they tune the boards brings it alive and they talk with the rider about how they want the board to turn. An amazing culture around this. If you ever come to Japan you would love the culture around tuning and shaping
Thank you so much Lars. I feel I have a good understanding of board shapes and how that effects their characteristics, but this went so much deeper and really opened my mind so much more. This is the snowboard content RUclips/the internet needs. Happy Trails!
Didnt get time to watch this video until now, but YES! This is what i was looking for! Did try riding my board on center of sidecut yesterday and that worked so good, it was so much easier to engage the front fot! Gonna ride it like this for a while and then start to progressivly move the bindings forward to see what feels best! 👍 You make me(us) think about how i snowboard and why i do it a certain way, and that have made me advance so much more in snowboarding! Too bad RUclips wasnt what it is today 25yrs ago! 😉 Keep the content up, its very good!
Thank you!! This is great. Some people here wrote comments with other theories or questioning my idea about this. And it might be wrong scientifically… but exactly what you said: something just feels so much better… and I tried to get behind what that is… You give me hope that I’m not totally tripping… 😉! 🙏🙏🤙
Just a thought I had while watching and I might be wrong here, but since pressure and speed are not static throughout a turn, a board with a radial sidecut and no taper will not produce a round turn shape because as the pressure increases throughout the turn it will flex more and tighten up the turn shape. So adding taper and a larger sidecut radius in the tail of the board could actually help keep a rounder turn shape by accounting for the increase in pressure towards the end of the turn when the rider is weighted more to the back foot. Korua boards might be on the far end of this spectrum with the amount of taper, but I don't know if the "double whammy" of taper plus a progressive sidecut is so bad for finishing turns across the slope.
You’re 100% correct about all of this!! And because that radial sidecut actually tightens up to a not so round turn, the Korua type sidecut/ taper feels like it’s more work to bring it across the slope in comparison. As someone else stated, I too can do it. It’s more about the effort it takes and considering that most people are not expert carvers but buy the boards because of marketing hype and then find themselves working harder than they can or should. Love your comment!!
Front foot weight is something I'm thinking about basically continuously on the snow. My carving board is a true twin with 0 setback, and the more even I can keep the pressure front to back the better the carves are. On soft snow with my 18mm tapered board I also need to focus my weight forward, but for somewhat different reasons. These volume-shifted and stance-adjusted boards float so well that you can ride them just fine in the backseat, but the more weight you put on the front the faster they go and the more edge is engaged, up until it's finally too much and they start to submarine. Front foot weighting also makes them better on cat-tracks, and certainly better at carving. Carving that short board on hardpack is hilariously fun and manic, but ultimately hamstrung for the reasons Lars mentioned. I think however they are so fun and easy to carve that they would make a great gateway drug for future serious carvers, since few have interest in a hardpack quiver board but many are interested in powder shapes.
Awesome. Watch that video till the end! Couldn't say more. Didn't expect to learn so much about board shapes even regard different riding/carving styles. You must have been standing so much time on the board to feel and understand all the differences. And then you're able to explain that to us noobs. You're a genius! Thanks!
Oh.... that is so nice to hear!! :-) Thank you!! Yeah.... I've ridden many, many snowboards, and I'm generally very receptive and in tune with stuff / my body. And I keep asking why... and I try not to blame my gear!! Once I had understood this, I was able to carve on just about anything. A look at the shape and stance location, and you know what to focus on when riding, where to apply more pressure... It's a beautiful thing! :-) I do also ride a ton. Today was day #40 of the season.... that's just disgusting! Hahahaha!
You've got me wheels turning again! Great vid. Next video idea... throw in board flex as a design choice to compensate for the various offsets. For example, in your twin flex board, if the nose and tail were on a sawhorse and you stood in the middle, it would bend in the circle. If you did the same with a directional flex with a softer nose it would bias forwards, so in order to get back to that circle you would need to shift the stance back. Etc. But now, are you behind the center of your side-cut vs the center of flex, and how does that interaction work? Don't forget to throw in more of * you * riding because we love that too!
Great thought! One mistake. Forces in a turn are not static! -Turn radius changes through board angulation, which is less at the beginning and end of a turn and more at the apex. - Speed changes through the turn, changing force pushing onto the board. - Ride - in an ideal world - performs fore aft movement! Turn entry: less speed, less force, less angulation, less help from those factors to bend the nose: hence, softer nose!! // Fall line to exit: more speed, more angulation, tighter radius, more g-force, rider moves back to disengage nose: hence, stiffer tail! 🙂
Lars thanks for another awesome video. I recently got a ride berserker and after a few runs my brain just said you have to move your stance back like 1 insert and then it just rode so much better I felt like my front foot engaged the sidecut way better. I make it about 30 seconds into your video then have to pause as my mind is expanding at red line rpms I have to let it go back to idle before resuming.
Sorry after an hour or so I made it to the end and you got me thinking about the Korua Otto. I had a 160ish that on paper should have been great for me but in practice I could not ride it. I swear though the reference stance was marked something nonsensical. I remember the reference stance mark being an X on the front insert basically at the forward most binding insert on the front foot. Because it had more nose surface area I took it to mean that was centered and they intended you to only move your stance back for powder since it was a directional twin with no taper. But riding on icy Midwest hills felt like death. My back foot slid all over and I couldn’t engage my edge properly nor torsionally flex the board the way I was familiar with on other boards. I chalked it up to bad technique on my part and it massively shook my confidence at the time. I think my back foot was close to being in the middle of the camber basically or very close to it. I thought I bought too big a board and I started riding softer shorter boards. But looking back on it I really wish I would’ve tried to center it on the sidecut more vs possibly a misprinted ref stance mark. If any of this incoherent rambling makes sense to you and you are familiar with that I would love to hear your thoughts on that board and how you are supposed to setup bindings for it. Again thanks for a great video.
Otto is a directional twin. Zero taper, supposedly 20mm setback at reference marks. measured one and it was actually 30mm set back. Never ridden one! Can't really comment.
Great example!! That board would not turn for me at all on groomers!! Moved everything as far back as possible and barely made it happen. I'm just not a back foot rider.... and that thing would not work any other way. Fun in pow, though! :-)
Great video! The snowboard nerdery is deep in this one! I can't help but think that some of this topic is directed at me from the discussion in the comments of your last video! 😆 Your point about Korua boards not 'closing' their turns doesn't resonate with me. I haven't found it an issue on my Korua Pin Tonic 172 in the steeps here in Whistler. Even in steep varied snow conditions. As an expert level rider of 35+ years maybe I'm able to adapt to the board and make it do my bidding. I definitely feel that I need to adapt my technique for carving on groomers on the Pin Tonic. Thats where I notice the most that the board really wants to be driven by the back foot. Especially through the last half of the turn. So far the only place I feel the Pin Tonic lacking is going mach chicken through cut up groomers and varied snow conditions. It feels twitchy in those situations. Manageable but twitchy. All that being said I do have a quiver of boards for a variety of snow conditions, terrain and mood. So, I'm not lacking equipment to be able to ride what I want. The Pin Tonic is a new addition so I'm putting it through its paces to see how it rides everything. It's definitely a pow board first but is a very competent all-mountain board too. It's definitely not my first pick for digging trenches on a groomer day! Thanks for all the thought provoking snowboard videos!
Not aiming at you but at someone else’s comment. Anyhow, it’s not about what’s possible, but how much effort it takes. I’m perfectly fine on big taper Koruas as well - as you said: after adjusting the way I ride. So they’re not intuitive!! How many people have the level of reflection and expertise to adjust to a board that needs a weight shift with accurate timing?!
Isn't it just a mind blowing topic once you throw in weight shifting dynamics and rider placement?! Snowboarding is so bloody awesome, and the vast amount of content out there is just about what's cool and on trend........ Thanks for watching! Share the love, spread the word!! :-)
It really is! So much of it we all experience on the snow and that we can't put into words and you're really extracting all the mystique. There's so much depth to it. Every one of your videos I watch makes me love snowboarding more and more. Getting a couple of my buddies on board with the channel!
This was a helpful intro to board shapes. Thank you! I'd like to better understand how the width of a board, all other variables being equal, affect steering dynamics. I think I'm on quite a narrow board now, am new to carving and loving it, but have a hard time getting steeper edge angles. Thinking perhaps I need to try a wider board.
Hi Lars, and thanks again for all this info. I would like to hear you out about how running lenght affects center of sidecut and all the other important things you need to take into account for a turn. There will be less pressure on the edge closer to the nose for a lot of board with a softer nose and early rise/rocker. The way I see it, it is really hard to say exactly where center of sidecut is and it would maybe alos affect the way the taper come in play? It's changing through out a turn because of mentioned factors and what angle your board is tilted in a turn. A lot of changeable factors giving a board it's special feel and experience for the rider.
Great nerd session once again, Lars! I prefer tapered boards, but like you have found that too much taper messes with carving characteristics. My boards have 5 to 20mm taper. I always call the centre of sidecut the “waist,” as it describes the narrowest part of the board, and it’s also one of the most referenced measurements on a board. Perhaps using that term would clarify communication with the masses. Cheers!
Yay yetanother nerdy video! 😀 Still, I remain unsure about the theory. I do believe your observations on snow and agree to the riding techniques (and other more obvious things explained, like center of effective edge and sidecut being two different things), but can not follow the not obvious reasons for some conclusions. One confusing thing I did overcome by thisking about it is the transformation of the cardboard twin to a tapered board by chopping of the tail, which I find so counterintuitive that all I could think of watching the first time was "no way this is how a tapered board is designed". My naive intuitive approaches would be to 1) cut out a narrow trangle out of board along the full length of ins long axis and glue the two halves back together, yielding a board that is the same width at itsnose and narrower by the width of tho the base of that trangle at the tail (thus tapered) while the sides and sidecut have not changed at all, except being at a slight angle to the axis of the board. Or 2) do an elliptic sidecut where the long axis of the ellipsoid is slightly angled to the long axis of the board and set back from the center. 2 makes the difference in EE an SC center very obvious and also would result in a degressive sidecut (like you described for Korua) as a consequence of tapering that way. Given cicular, single radius sidecuts I did realize that your cut of tail, moving the center of the sidecut circle back and my 1 all yield basically the same shape and if you ignored inserts (or placed them anew in the same way) the same board. (Now my non-naive approach would be calculating sidecut curve and flexpattern backwards from the desired shape of the actual carved line in the snow that results from the "blend" of both sidecut shape and bending shape of the board being flexel. Unclear what this would yield. 😀 I sure would set the variables for weight on the inserts to be front foot hoavy. 😉) Back to naive tapered twin 1, carving that, it sits on its edge in the snow making contact all they way from contact point te contact point (perfect groomer, no rocker or anything going on), so this edge and the one of the original twin would sit on edge the exact same way. Just the back foot would be a bit closer to the edge. In other words, if on a true twin you moved your bindings sideways so the front one sits closer to the frontside edge and the back one closer to the backside edge, it should feel riding frontside turns like it was tapered twin and backside turns as if you rode a tapered twin switch. Apart from feeling "unusual" up to a point of getting used to, I see no obvious mechanical reason why the (carved) turn shape had to be different. Now you say the best spot to weight the board to decamber it was the "center". Makes perfect sense when talking center of effective edge (assuming twin flex for now), as when tilting the board, it sits on the contact points which are the "hinges" and you press in the center between those. Now with directional flex, the best spot probably would be the "weighted" (no pun intended) center of the flex pattern, ie. with stiffer tail you need to press closer to the tail to make the board bend evenly instead of just a nose. Thus to me directional flex first of all is the consequential result of having to counter the unwanted effect of a set back position on a directional board (on non-pow). Later you do say the center of the sidecut was the perfect spot to press into, but none of above initial thoughts lead me to that conclusion nor explains why and how being offset to the sidecut makes the ride worse, when you still are in the bend/flex related perfect spot? The very interesting other viewer's comment on how many Gentemsticks do ride fine frontfoot heavy despite extreme shape also hints against that conclusion, I guess. Your example of tail-less half cardboard extreme taper -as you noticed per the subtitles - does not make sense based thoughts on my board 1 above. But the subtitle conclusion that it would m/wash out I think only makes sense to result from there being no tail, not due to the taper - if you placed the inserts anew centered among effective edge, you had a (much shorter) tapered twin, that had as much tail as nose and not wash out (only have less edge hold for being so short).
OK.... that is just too long.... Holy crap! I'll answer anyways! You owe me 10 coffees for an hour and a half out of my day... :-) To your first point: Of course nobody ever designed a tapered board by chopping the tail off!!!!! It is THE SIMPLEST and quickest visual for people who have no clue what taper is and have no concept of any of this, which is the majority!! Then about elliptical sidecut: yes, some boards are like that, and others are different.... There are radial sidecut tapered boards out there, and this is what I'm talking about in my cardboard twin demo. Sidenote: the very point of this cardboard demo was to show how the rider placement didn't change over the sidecut!! Your triangle cut out does change where the waist is, and therefore it changes rider placement - if you leave the inserts where they were before, which again, was the whole point!! Flex and all that is a different subject and would make this video into a 2h thing. That's insanity! Please understand who this channel is for and what the idea is: making people realize that 'It's not just a snowboard!". I'm not touching on another whole bucket of stuff here that technically would have to be discussed.... The part where you speak of moving the feet around makes no sense to me. Can't follow! By cutting off the tail (just as a demo......) I removed a chunk of the curve that guides me through a turn!! The tail has less turn shape! (BTW I also say at that point that one can counter this with a progressive sidecut!!). The turn shape is not being changed!!! But it requires more effort to get that tail to finish the turn because the curve in the tail is less pronounced! You don't have to believe me. Buy a board like that and try to carve across the hill (on your heels in particular) in steeper terrain. You'll feel this instantly! No, I'm not saying to decamber it!! I'm saying to compress the sidecut! Camber curve and sidecut curve are different!! And it is obvious that pushing into the centre of the sidecut arc compresses the arc in the most efficient way. That's just logical. Forget about the camber here! It's another variable that should be taken into account, but that was not the goal of this video!! You're now bringing in directional flex. I agree, but there's a thinking mistake, which is the biggest part of what's missing ibn this video: What you consider is all static!! There's multiple variables at play that change constantly throughout a turn: board angulation - having direct impact on turn shape - changes from little to lots from turn entry to exit... Speed and therewith force changes with it. And then, because that's not complex enough yet, there's rider movement fore-aft (in an ideal world). We always enter turns on the front foot, and depending on terrain and board design we move back through the turn with a particular timing, which changes with board and conditions....... So directional flex follows this!! Here's the video for that: ruclips.net/video/wK6qYIN89rI/видео.html Then your confusion about pushing into the sidecut centre... I think I make perfect sense by saying here's a twin, to compress the arc think of where skiers are mounted on a ski - well, in the centre of that arc! But we're not skiers, so in theory it's most efficient to mount a rider's feet an equal distance away from the narrowest spot of the board, which on a radial sidecut would measure equal width under each foot. Not sure how that's not true or confusing. We're mixing two things that both are true. I'm solely talking about sidecut and rider placement over that. I am also not saying that one shape or setup is better. I'm saying a certain setup needs to be ridden in a certain way. I've had no success at all riding my 22mm tapered Simple Pleasures front foot heavy on groomers. I've messed with it and my technique for a full week to figure it out. If I want to ride it more neutrally, placing myself further back, which puts me more into the centre of the sidecut, is perfect. If I ride it at reference marks, I have to shift onto the back foot very, very early in the turn. Still initiating through the front foot, but moving back really early. It depends on riding style and timing. This video is supposed to give people answers to potential things they experience on certain boards. It should empower people to experiment and take my notes into consideration. Since NOBODY in the snowboarding industry is telling us how these things work, I'm on my own with my own experiences, which I'm trying to share as best as I can. You are bringing in more theories but no examples from experience. We may both be wrong!! But I do believe that this video - as incomplete as it is - gives a very easy to understand visual. From all your previous comments I can only assume that you're just like myself very much a thinker and very analytical - probably worse than me... (I don't want to put anyone into me head. They'd instantly freak out and go insane!). Please remind yourself of who this is for. Technically there needs to be one single 10 hour long video about board design, if you want the completeness you keep demanding under many of my videos. That just can't be done! Every design aspect links up with another.... It only shows how difficult it must be to design a really good snowboard! Sorry, I didn't even answer your comments fully. It's too complicated! I can just about follow your train of thoughts - while seemingly most people could follow mine here, which shows you how bloody difficult it is to make these videos in a digestible manner!! Come to Fernie. Let's sit down and you explain to me again what you all mean here. That took a full hour to write this! I feel like an idiot! It's 9.30am and the hill is open.... what am I doing here?! Can you please make a video to correct my mistakes? That would be helpful! Happy turns!!
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel So, how many coffees for the 10h video ? 😂 Seriously, thank you very much for taking the time answer, appreciate it! You are correct, I am very analytical and I am a curious nerd. Thus my comment(s) do(es) not aim to criticize nor question the goal of your video(s), but to gather additional knowledge or clarify things that I am not sure I correctly understand yet. In fact, I also thought that you are a bit like me and enjoy nerding out deeper and deeper on things e.g. here in the comments, even when you have to compromise to go less deep in the video. Like you said, we both could be wrong with the theories, but some brainstorming and challenging them might lead to better ones. Funny thing, I am aware of and did think of the extra factors and dynamics of a turn like the fore-aft movement, but did not mention in my comment to not add yet more complexity. 😆 For now, just two simple questions, that may clear up a lot already: 1. Are you saying that the "Korua effect" of a turn being hard to close is the otnly/main adverse effect of taper on turning? (You can answer this Yes/No) 2. What do you mean by "sidecut compression"? I can only think of tightening the turn by putting more weight/higher angulation in, but that would be the decambering that I am supposed to ignore for now... 😬 A snowboarding trip to Canada sure is on the bucket list and it would be a blast to incorporate the opportunity to ride and nerd out with you! 😀. For this season, I am happy when that can finally start at all (torn a muscle fiber end of fall 🙄). You do not happen to plan another Europe visit this season?
Thank you for illuminating why I love my korua powder board (pintonic) at my mellow local hills (Monarch & Cooper in CO) and why it stresses me out on steep terrain at Arapahoe Basin! Is there any board you would recommend more than the Stranda Descender for technical steep terrain?
Don't get me wrong! Korua is fine. They work everywhere. But it is just more work on them in steep terrain and requires more skill. Just saying this here, because I don't want to come across like I'm saying something 'negative' about the brand. Just pointing out a difference... :-) The Descender is great. But it is also on the stiffer side of things - which most freeride boards are. The best alternative is a Jones Flagship, which I find too stiff in the nose and just not quite as damp and versatile as I find my Descender. But I've ridden Flagships for 10 years prior to Stranda, and I always liked that board.
This is great insight! I've watched this video twice back to back, and I'm still kinda puzzled. I think I know I no longer want Korua for "traditional" carving, but I am unsure about what to buy. Those very long boards (like Stranda) scare me, I want something more classic. And this got me thinking and wondering. There's Jones Freecarver 6000 and 9000. Do the same principle for tapered boards also apply to different sidecut radiuses? I.e. will it be so that the 9000 will be less useful/more difficult on steeper terrain when compared to the 6000, due to higher radius and more difficulty in putting it on edge and bending to have a tight turn on steeper terrain?
That's a whole new video...... Depends on ability level and the general rule: tighter sidecut has a lower speed limit since you just can't go high speed through tight radii - too much g force! Chatter!! The 9000 is clearly better for steep terrain, but can you ride it???? Larger radii need to be put high on edge to bring them around. That requires skill! Not everybody can just hop on one of those and go down everywhere... Hope that makes sense! And no, taper and radius in this regard don't connect on that same level. And in regards to Stranda and length: you can't apply the same thoughts about length that you've developed with say Burton boards to Stranda! Stranda designs the boards to be ridden longer without having to fight them! Longitudinally softer, torsionally stiffer!! They're meant to be put on edge instead of sliding around. And once you do that, that flex and length of the effective edge will give you so much more confidence than a shorter board ever could. Trust me on this one! I've seen it over and over again with people I put on a Stranda. If the rider is past the skidding stage and wants to carve, these boards will assist you more than anything I've ever ridden!
Lars, I ride a short fat, I am tall and leggy so my stance width is wider than the ref stance markings. My question is, should I narrow my stance to match the reference stance markings on the board, or should I keep my back foot on the reference mark and move my front foot forward, or should I move both feet equally fore and after of the reference stance markings? Thank you sir 🙏
Taper really bothers me on my race boards. I had a Donek MK and preferred my old 158 Madd but in soft boots I actually don’t mind my Cafe Racer at all. I’m 27.5 boot so I think the extra room up front helps me with boot out that I have with less tapered shapes. The rear foot can get away being closer to the edge since the board has made a trench for the back foot.
Great video, loving the attention to detail. I have a question though: does it not matter that taper might shift the centre point of our radial turning circle? In other words: on a true twin with radial sidecut the centre of the circle created by the sidecut is equidistant to both my feet. In your example where you cut off a twin this is still true. But on a tapered board with a radial sidecut that same centre point could be at an angle slightly behind me - imagine if you cut your twin in half longways and widen the front only, now you have a tapered board but you’re in the middle of the effective edge still - in this case I’m drawing a circle but my board is not perpendicular to the circle, it is pointing a little outwards because of the taper. I hope that makes some kind of sense 🤷♂️
When you do what you said, making the board wider in the tip, you're shifting the waist of the board backwards and the rider is then - if you don't change the position of the inserts - standing in front of the centre of the sidecut / waist. The purpose of my example, which is of course not real life (tapered shapes surely aren't made by chopping off tails, hahaha....) was to simply show how you can be set back on the board while still stranding in the centre of the sidecut with equal distances between each foot and the waist of the board.
@ thanks for the response Lars this makes sense. I guess I was thinking that in this example we would still be centred on sidecut, because the waist (i.e. narrowest part of board) is now behind the centre of the sidecut? Loving your work. I have no idea if me overthinking sidecut ellipses will make be a better snowboarder, it’s fun to understand why boards and skis behave differently though.
Very interesting. I have a ton of korua boards and have always found them perfect on the steep...but i will just akid a bit to scrub some speed. I went to them because their stiffness matches my hefty 260lb weight. Andything from stranda for that weight you consider for carving the steeps?
The gentemstick has this thing they call accel camber where the highest point of the camber is much closer to the back foot. I guess that helps with back foot heavy riding? The japanese snow surfing style seems to be very back foot heavy at least visually. Opinions?
I would agree. But someone here said that he's ridden a whole bunch of Gentems and that they work quite well on the front foot. Super interesting this whole thing
@@Justaride-Snowboard-ChannelThe gentemstick chaser for one (which has the same shape as the hornet basically) needs front foot heavy riding on groomers to not fel washy. The opposite of the very similarly shaped elevated surfcraft red tail hawk. I have booth and they are very different on groomers. If you mount the red tail hawk forward shifted it actually rips on groomers.
@@sebastiangronkvist3897 that is so interesting!! I've literally only ever experienced heavily tapered boards that wash out when power onto my front foot... Damn! Gotta buy some Gentems! :-)
@@jaybartlett2561 I have the very first with the Cherry Wood top sheet, Simple Pleasures. I don't believe the Niseko is actually different. I saw them back in the day together at a trade show and played around with them. Everything looked and felt identical... Yeah, the base is great!! Graphite sintered...
All the boards I have designed, the set back was based on the effective edge. My guess is, some companies that make boards are having factories do the engineering and the marketing/development department of said company comes up with the specs and basically have zero concept of what they are doing.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I'm curious why do you think softer tail than nose is bad? I never understood the traditional stiffer tail design. A stiffer nose sticks out more in pow and gives more stability when riding on the front foot, and a softer tail makes the board move maneuverable and helps absorbing bumps and shutting down speed.
@ stiffer nose absorbs less vibration and is stubborn when you want to bend it into a turn shape. It also rises less in pow than a softer nose, since the resistance against the snow doesn’t flex it upwards to get to the surface but rather makes it try to plough through. Then, forces increase throughout a turn while the weight moves onto the backfoot simultaneously. Hence a stiffer tail goes with the dynamics of a turn. Xavier’s take is seemingly different, and I think he’s got his own reasons for that. Of course stiffness and softness can always be too extreme, so it’s a bit relative. 🤷♂️
@ I’m 100% sure that Xavier’s idea behind it makes just as much sense as my logic. It’s preference and riding style and how you perceive and interpret your whole snowboarding approach. 🙂
I'm sorry but are you saying there are boards where the recommended stance is in front of the sidecut? Cause I don't think so.. Actually most powder boards are set back on sidecut and board.. I'm a little confused by your point. I think you're not taking in account most of these boards have a multi radial sidecut and that's why you're not actually in front of the sidecut..
Trust me on this one and watch this and my previous video again. It's so obvious! :-) Just look at the Hornet graphic I put into the video!! K2's Cool Bean for example stated: "Set forward by x amount".... I know it seems weird, but once there's taper it can make sense. You might be confusing sidecut and effective edge, which, to prevent that from happening I've explained again in this video and had already explained in many others. Important difference!! Yes, multi radial sidecuts change this to a degree. But on that Hornet - as the graphic shows - you're literally standing on the waist with your back foot. No tighter tail radius can make up for that! Sidenote: in that graphic where I state "Centre Of Sidecut" it says "(on a radial sidecut)" right underneath. Might not have been that visible, but anyhow, I feel strongly that my point is beyond an opinion. My brain can't look at it in a different way... that board's outline and insert placement tell the story!
Im not sure i see the point of determining the center of sidecut. You are only riding one side at a time. Your board doesn’t care where the other sidecut is when on edge. Its still just a part of a circle(or sort of). I agree that it feels weird to have that much taper, but i think of it like your sidecut is angled away from your front foot. Its probably just a different way of thinking about the same thing though.
I think it's physically important to understand whether one should apply more front foot or back foot pressure on different boards. That's definitely a noticeable thing.
@ I definitely agree with the extra back foot weight that a tapered board needs from my experience. I can see how showing the center line can represent how much. Im just thinking that from the sidecut itself, it shouldn’t be any different lets say on a toe side than if you shifted your front binding to the heel and your back binding towards the toe side. Interesting stuff
Thnx Lars, the cardboard "wiggle stick" really works for explaining, I'm ridin groomers on a 1'61 pow carve Nidecker and some days on a Capita 1'56 twin camber, here in Spain the terrain changes a lot, wider, steeper, icy, etc, doin' my best to find the good lines and apply your tips 🙏🏂⚡️
Interesting!! Did they?! I like taper! Anything between 4 and 15mm depending on length of effective edge. But yeah, maybe they made it more user friendly. 🙂
The Korua’s took me some time to adapt to as I have been a fan of progressive sidecuts for decades. Great video, great channel. Keep up the good work and happy turning! 😊
I think the way Gentemstick describes their taper is actually the right way to do it and the industry should follow suite. This is because the taper comes into effect on a turn, which takes place on one edge, so recording taper based on one edge makes sense to me. One could push back on this and say taper affects the ride while you’re flat basing it. But for this, maybe we need another Justaride vid hehe
That is a good point! However, the reason I disagree is that nobody looks at a longitudinal half of a board when they see a board, and the common definition of taper is tail narrower than nose. And then the specs talk about nose width and tail width in numbers... So people go "Ah, I see, the tail is narrower than the nose by say 10mm!" And then they read "Taper: 5mm". It's just confusing the heck out of the average rider.
Ridden more than 20+ years on boards WITHOUT "progressive sidecut", that is still the hardest part for me on a new board. Where are the two radius blending...? Where is the real center of this blended radius...? Am I feeling two different center points...? Then have to adapt to these 2 different radius in hard and chunked or steep terrain and figure out where to position the weight... Was the hardest adaption of the past years for me. Tapered boards or setback riding... No problem to adapt my body movement to, if the radius of the edge is consistent... But progressive two radius... Not so easy for me and a 20plus year learned muscle memory. Maybe a topic for a different video.
Yes!! Video is on the list! It's much more subtle and often doesn't require much change. Like... on this Hornet in the video the 7m radius in the tail may well just be blended into the last 15cm of the effective edge... The blends have to be super drawn out in order for the sidecut to not show any abrupt direction changes. Hence, it often just aids with a certain behaviour of the board rather than totally changing the way it should be ridden. I'll try to make a video to my best abilities. ;-)
Doesn't both exist? That is, boards that blend it smoothly into what I rather would describe as an elliptic or non-circular sidecut, as well as boards that do use abrupt radius changes to implement their flavour of traction tech? PS: I do second (once again 😉) the request for a video on more complex sidecuts. 😀
@elho001 of course they blend it in. Just a bit hard for me as a German native speaker to describe this in English. The feeling for my motion is just weirder. Weight on frontfoot... Entering with a 10m radius... Then weight transferred more to the back foot while in the same moment the radius is powering down to the 5 or 6m radius. Just completely not so predictably in complicated or steep conditions as if you operate just with a fix 8m radius from entering til exiting. Even getting weirder if the board is high angled in a deep carve. Or maybe I'm just getting old or my muscle memory tries to fool me a bit...
I wish you had a real profile name and pic. I can’t get an idea of who you are. Seemingly you’ve been snowboarding for a very long time and you’ve got a lot of experience. But I just don’t understand what most of your comments mean or what they’re aiming for. What is steepwater 179? A board I assume? And then what is this supposed to express? Would love to interact, but I mostly don’t know how.
Anyone else watching this whilst measuring dimensions of their snowboard on the kitchen table? Thanks Lars .Great videos .
It should definitely be "The Card Board"!
Lars, you have a PHD in snowboarding. The channel should be called the Science of Snowboarding. So insightful.
@@kuoloonchong2127 this episode wasn’t even complete…. It’s more complicated than this! 😂
Spill the beans dude @@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel
Keep them coming!
Just a thought, so with a tapered board, your front foot will be higher than your back foot when tilting the board on edge (further away from the snow). This rotates your body in the opposite direction to the turn! Meaning the momentum of your body is not actually following your edge direction, its offset, pulling you down the hill! Like understeer!
@@charley1326 I know!! I didn’t wanna open that hole…. Hahahaha… it’s wild! 😅
It only is a small movement and your body's opposing movement carries a lot of momentum tha will not be reversed, just decelerated earlier and more. I would think all that results in is an extra bit of pressure on the front section of the edge. 🤔
@@elho001 We are a group of people exploring changes in millimeters... there are no small movements! 🙂
@@warrens4808 You must be riding channel boards! 😂
But seriously, the millimeters of extra lever to your disadvantage for the front foot on a tapered (and wide) board would be something I would acknowledge to potentially affect a (especially not front foot heavy) rider.
But above comment was about the momentum it would cause, which is the fractional change in angle resulting from a few millimeter (half the taper) change at the end of what would be half the stance width of "lever". Now, if you managed to simulate that movement on a non-taper board a very introspective rider, like some pro racer on his training hill will indeed likely feel at least "something being off". But what I am saying is, that compared to the other effects of the taper, it is (just from a physics standpoint) rather insignificant.
Hi Lars, can’t tell you how much I love your channel and how educational you are for the whole community so thank you.
Having been based in Japan for 20 years I have ridden A lot of gentems and counter-intuitively they generally require a lot of front foot weight. The progressive sidecut in the tail as you mentioned can be quite sharply progressive so overweighting it can create a strange washing on the tail. They are a board more sensitive to weighting than anything else.
The TT still exists which is basically a cult board here because of its lack of sidecut and the need for the driver to do everything through weighting. In Japan they often call boards manual (stick shift in the US) or automatic. The idea of the manual board is the driver is doing the input and not being guided by the sidecut and they love the process of managing and learning the manual boards like the TT. It is like a craftsman not relying on their tools and that is the beauty of a TT as it gives the rider freedom to express his turn but completely dependent on his skill.
But definitely boards, like you say, the hornet not for the steeps, but that is why they have boards like the floater, magic 38 and speed master.
As you say all an excuse to build a quiver.
Thanks so so much
That is so interesting to hear about the front foot thing!! Wow!! I've only ever experienced tail wash on such boards when really riding the front. The progressive sidecut would definitely change that a bit. Dang.... now I want to try more Gentems!!! :-)
I can totally relate to manual vs. automatic!!! Beautifully put! If the TT came in a wide, I'd own one. Been staring at that board forever!! I love a larger radius and making things happen myself.
Thanks for such a thoughtful comment! Love it!
Yes I have bigger feet too so can’t ride the TT but the Slasher ii came out and is a similar board but with more sidecut. Definitely a learning process.
Have a Makrill, tree surfer and pipeliner 2 (mainly from your influence) and I definitely find myself more backfoot (and lazy) on the Makrill as it turns so well than with my gentems which need this very gradual shift through the turns.
If you have a chance watch videos featuring Kazushige Fujita a gentem rider who makes some of the most beautiful turns but definitely isn’t back foot like the Moss snow stick riders.
The other thing that the international riders don’t understand about Gentem is they are designed to be tuned by artisans shops like T-tune in Hokkaido or Relax Snowsurf north of Tokyo. How they tune the boards brings it alive and they talk with the rider about how they want the board to turn. An amazing culture around this.
If you ever come to Japan you would love the culture around tuning and shaping
@ my dream!!! Yeah, the tuning part resonates with me. I do this to a degree, too. But I think those guys take it to another level!!
Love your content. Riding is sortoff easier when I understand what is going on and why! Thank you for taking the time to make these videos!
Thank you so much Lars. I feel I have a good understanding of board shapes and how that effects their characteristics, but this went so much deeper and really opened my mind so much more. This is the snowboard content RUclips/the internet needs.
Happy Trails!
Amazing!! Thanks for sharing this! 🙂🙏🙏
Didnt get time to watch this video until now, but YES!
This is what i was looking for!
Did try riding my board on center of sidecut yesterday and that worked so good, it was so much easier to engage the front fot! Gonna ride it like this for a while and then start to progressivly move the bindings forward to see what feels best! 👍
You make me(us) think about how i snowboard and why i do it a certain way, and that have made me advance so much more in snowboarding! Too bad RUclips wasnt what it is today 25yrs ago! 😉
Keep the content up, its very good!
Thank you!! This is great. Some people here wrote comments with other theories or questioning my idea about this. And it might be wrong scientifically… but exactly what you said: something just feels so much better… and I tried to get behind what that is… You give me hope that I’m not totally tripping… 😉! 🙏🙏🤙
Just a thought I had while watching and I might be wrong here, but since pressure and speed are not static throughout a turn, a board with a radial sidecut and no taper will not produce a round turn shape because as the pressure increases throughout the turn it will flex more and tighten up the turn shape. So adding taper and a larger sidecut radius in the tail of the board could actually help keep a rounder turn shape by accounting for the increase in pressure towards the end of the turn when the rider is weighted more to the back foot. Korua boards might be on the far end of this spectrum with the amount of taper, but I don't know if the "double whammy" of taper plus a progressive sidecut is so bad for finishing turns across the slope.
You’re 100% correct about all of this!! And because that radial sidecut actually tightens up to a not so round turn, the Korua type sidecut/ taper feels like it’s more work to bring it across the slope in comparison. As someone else stated, I too can do it. It’s more about the effort it takes and considering that most people are not expert carvers but buy the boards because of marketing hype and then find themselves working harder than they can or should. Love your comment!!
Thanks Lars! o and I think 'Bob' is pretty apt!
Front foot weight is something I'm thinking about basically continuously on the snow. My carving board is a true twin with 0 setback, and the more even I can keep the pressure front to back the better the carves are. On soft snow with my 18mm tapered board I also need to focus my weight forward, but for somewhat different reasons. These volume-shifted and stance-adjusted boards float so well that you can ride them just fine in the backseat, but the more weight you put on the front the faster they go and the more edge is engaged, up until it's finally too much and they start to submarine. Front foot weighting also makes them better on cat-tracks, and certainly better at carving. Carving that short board on hardpack is hilariously fun and manic, but ultimately hamstrung for the reasons Lars mentioned. I think however they are so fun and easy to carve that they would make a great gateway drug for future serious carvers, since few have interest in a hardpack quiver board but many are interested in powder shapes.
Awesome. Watch that video till the end! Couldn't say more. Didn't expect to learn so much about board shapes even regard different riding/carving styles.
You must have been standing so much time on the board to feel and understand all the differences. And then you're able to explain that to us noobs.
You're a genius! Thanks!
Oh.... that is so nice to hear!! :-) Thank you!!
Yeah.... I've ridden many, many snowboards, and I'm generally very receptive and in tune with stuff / my body. And I keep asking why... and I try not to blame my gear!! Once I had understood this, I was able to carve on just about anything. A look at the shape and stance location, and you know what to focus on when riding, where to apply more pressure... It's a beautiful thing! :-) I do also ride a ton. Today was day #40 of the season.... that's just disgusting! Hahahaha!
You've got me wheels turning again! Great vid. Next video idea... throw in board flex as a design choice to compensate for the various offsets. For example, in your twin flex board, if the nose and tail were on a sawhorse and you stood in the middle, it would bend in the circle. If you did the same with a directional flex with a softer nose it would bias forwards, so in order to get back to that circle you would need to shift the stance back. Etc. But now, are you behind the center of your side-cut vs the center of flex, and how does that interaction work? Don't forget to throw in more of * you * riding because we love that too!
Great thought! One mistake.
Forces in a turn are not static!
-Turn radius changes through board angulation, which is less at the beginning and end of a turn and more at the apex.
- Speed changes through the turn, changing force pushing onto the board.
- Ride - in an ideal world - performs fore aft movement! Turn entry: less speed, less force, less angulation, less help from those factors to bend the nose: hence, softer nose!! // Fall line to exit: more speed, more angulation, tighter radius, more g-force, rider moves back to disengage nose: hence, stiffer tail! 🙂
Wow that's a pretty flexible board you got there.
Wow ! What a great video ! Your explanations are so clear and the subject is so interesting ! You are really going deep into board design….Loved it !
@@martinbailly573 thanks. It’s not even complete….. too much!! 😅
Lars thanks for another awesome video. I recently got a ride berserker and after a few runs my brain just said you have to move your stance back like 1 insert and then it just rode so much better I felt like my front foot engaged the sidecut way better. I make it about 30 seconds into your video then have to pause as my mind is expanding at red line rpms I have to let it go back to idle before resuming.
Sorry after an hour or so I made it to the end and you got me thinking about the Korua Otto. I had a 160ish that on paper should have been great for me but in practice I could not ride it. I swear though the reference stance was marked something nonsensical. I remember the reference stance mark being an X on the front insert basically at the forward most binding insert on the front foot. Because it had more nose surface area I took it to mean that was centered and they intended you to only move your stance back for powder since it was a directional twin with no taper. But riding on icy Midwest hills felt like death. My back foot slid all over and I couldn’t engage my edge properly nor torsionally flex the board the way I was familiar with on other boards. I chalked it up to bad technique on my part and it massively shook my confidence at the time. I think my back foot was close to being in the middle of the camber basically or very close to it. I thought I bought too big a board and I started riding softer shorter boards. But looking back on it I really wish I would’ve tried to center it on the sidecut more vs possibly a misprinted ref stance mark. If any of this incoherent rambling makes sense to you and you are familiar with that I would love to hear your thoughts on that board and how you are supposed to setup bindings for it. Again thanks for a great video.
Otto is a directional twin. Zero taper, supposedly 20mm setback at reference marks. measured one and it was actually 30mm set back. Never ridden one! Can't really comment.
Yeah, you can't argue with direct on snow experience. It's subjective, but if it works for a person it can't be wrong. :-)
@@Rancor39 Had a pretty similar experience with the Otto 61. After selling it, I also went softer...but now want a longer, more capable board.
neato, great to nerd out on this stuff
K2 overboard of a couple years ago 165 and 44m of taper Super unique turning experience but really rad once u got used to it. Love the channel:)
Great example!! That board would not turn for me at all on groomers!! Moved everything as far back as possible and barely made it happen. I'm just not a back foot rider.... and that thing would not work any other way. Fun in pow, though! :-)
Great video!
The snowboard nerdery is deep in this one!
I can't help but think that some of this topic is directed at me from the discussion in the comments of your last video! 😆
Your point about Korua boards not 'closing' their turns doesn't resonate with me. I haven't found it an issue on my Korua Pin Tonic 172 in the steeps here in Whistler. Even in steep varied snow conditions.
As an expert level rider of 35+ years maybe I'm able to adapt to the board and make it do my bidding.
I definitely feel that I need to adapt my technique for carving on groomers on the Pin Tonic. Thats where I notice the most that the board really wants to be driven by the back foot. Especially through the last half of the turn.
So far the only place I feel the Pin Tonic lacking is going mach chicken through cut up groomers and varied snow conditions. It feels twitchy in those situations. Manageable but twitchy.
All that being said I do have a quiver of boards for a variety of snow conditions, terrain and mood. So, I'm not lacking equipment to be able to ride what I want.
The Pin Tonic is a new addition so I'm putting it through its paces to see how it rides everything. It's definitely a pow board first but is a very competent all-mountain board too. It's definitely not my first pick for digging trenches on a groomer day!
Thanks for all the thought provoking snowboard videos!
Not aiming at you but at someone else’s comment. Anyhow, it’s not about what’s possible, but how much effort it takes. I’m perfectly fine on big taper Koruas as well - as you said: after adjusting the way I ride. So they’re not intuitive!! How many people have the level of reflection and expertise to adjust to a board that needs a weight shift with accurate timing?!
🤯 Awesome, as always, thanks Lars!
Isn't it just a mind blowing topic once you throw in weight shifting dynamics and rider placement?! Snowboarding is so bloody awesome, and the vast amount of content out there is just about what's cool and on trend........
Thanks for watching! Share the love, spread the word!! :-)
It really is! So much of it we all experience on the snow and that we can't put into words and you're really extracting all the mystique. There's so much depth to it. Every one of your videos I watch makes me love snowboarding more and more. Getting a couple of my buddies on board with the channel!
@@spqm that's my goal... making conscious what riders have somehow been experiencing already ;-)
This was a helpful intro to board shapes. Thank you! I'd like to better understand how the width of a board, all other variables being equal, affect steering dynamics. I think I'm on quite a narrow board now, am new to carving and loving it, but have a hard time getting steeper edge angles. Thinking perhaps I need to try a wider board.
@@ShannonCoen browse through my content! Lots more about board design and carving tips. 👍
Hi Lars, and thanks again for all this info. I would like to hear you out about how running lenght affects center of sidecut and all the other important things you need to take into account for a turn. There will be less pressure on the edge closer to the nose for a lot of board with a softer nose and early rise/rocker. The way I see it, it is really hard to say exactly where center of sidecut is and it would maybe alos affect the way the taper come in play? It's changing through out a turn because of mentioned factors and what angle your board is tilted in a turn. A lot of changeable factors giving a board it's special feel and experience for the rider.
@@catkoala totally agree. Putting that into understandable, relatable videos blows my own mind.
Great nerd session once again, Lars! I prefer tapered boards, but like you have found that too much taper messes with carving characteristics. My boards have 5 to 20mm taper.
I always call the centre of sidecut the “waist,” as it describes the narrowest part of the board, and it’s also one of the most referenced measurements on a board. Perhaps using that term would clarify communication with the masses. Cheers!
@@lukedesaulniers5943 good call.
Yay yetanother nerdy video! 😀
Still, I remain unsure about the theory. I do believe your observations on snow and agree to the riding techniques (and other more obvious things explained, like center of effective edge and sidecut being two different things), but can not follow the not obvious reasons for some conclusions.
One confusing thing I did overcome by thisking about it is the transformation of the cardboard twin to a tapered board by chopping of the tail, which I find so counterintuitive that all I could think of watching the first time was "no way this is how a tapered board is designed". My naive intuitive approaches would be to 1) cut out a narrow trangle out of board along the full length of ins long axis and glue the two halves back together, yielding a board that is the same width at itsnose and narrower by the width of tho the base of that trangle at the tail (thus tapered) while the sides and sidecut have not changed at all, except being at a slight angle to the axis of the board. Or 2) do an elliptic sidecut where the long axis of the ellipsoid is slightly angled to the long axis of the board and set back from the center.
2 makes the difference in EE an SC center very obvious and also would result in a degressive sidecut (like you described for Korua) as a consequence of tapering that way.
Given cicular, single radius sidecuts I did realize that your cut of tail, moving the center of the sidecut circle back and my 1 all yield basically the same shape and if you ignored inserts (or placed them anew in the same way) the same board.
(Now my non-naive approach would be calculating sidecut curve and flexpattern backwards from the desired shape of the actual carved line in the snow that results from the "blend" of both sidecut shape and bending shape of the board being flexel. Unclear what this would yield. 😀 I sure would set the variables for weight on the inserts to be front foot hoavy. 😉)
Back to naive tapered twin 1, carving that, it sits on its edge in the snow making contact all they way from contact point te contact point (perfect groomer, no rocker or anything going on), so this edge and the one of the original twin would sit on edge the exact same way. Just the back foot would be a bit closer to the edge.
In other words, if on a true twin you moved your bindings sideways so the front one sits closer to the frontside edge and the back one closer to the backside edge, it should feel riding frontside turns like it was tapered twin and backside turns as if you rode a tapered twin switch. Apart from feeling "unusual" up to a point of getting used to, I see no obvious mechanical reason why the (carved) turn shape had to be different.
Now you say the best spot to weight the board to decamber it was the "center". Makes perfect sense when talking center of effective edge (assuming twin flex for now), as when tilting the board, it sits on the contact points which are the "hinges" and you press in the center between those. Now with directional flex, the best spot probably would be the "weighted" (no pun intended) center of the flex pattern, ie. with stiffer tail you need to press closer to the tail to make the board bend evenly instead of just a nose. Thus to me directional flex first of all is the consequential result of having to counter the unwanted effect of a set back position on a directional board (on non-pow).
Later you do say the center of the sidecut was the perfect spot to press into, but none of above initial thoughts lead me to that conclusion nor explains why and how being offset to the sidecut makes the ride worse, when you still are in the bend/flex related perfect spot?
The very interesting other viewer's comment on how many Gentemsticks do ride fine frontfoot heavy despite extreme shape also hints against that conclusion, I guess.
Your example of tail-less half cardboard extreme taper -as you noticed per the subtitles - does not make sense based thoughts on my board 1 above. But the subtitle conclusion that it would m/wash out I think only makes sense to result from there being no tail, not due to the taper - if you placed the inserts anew centered among effective edge, you had a (much shorter) tapered twin, that had as much tail as nose and not wash out (only have less edge hold for being so short).
OK.... that is just too long.... Holy crap! I'll answer anyways! You owe me 10 coffees for an hour and a half out of my day... :-)
To your first point: Of course nobody ever designed a tapered board by chopping the tail off!!!!! It is THE SIMPLEST and quickest visual for people who have no clue what taper is and have no concept of any of this, which is the majority!!
Then about elliptical sidecut: yes, some boards are like that, and others are different.... There are radial sidecut tapered boards out there, and this is what I'm talking about in my cardboard twin demo. Sidenote: the very point of this cardboard demo was to show how the rider placement didn't change over the sidecut!! Your triangle cut out does change where the waist is, and therefore it changes rider placement - if you leave the inserts where they were before, which again, was the whole point!!
Flex and all that is a different subject and would make this video into a 2h thing. That's insanity! Please understand who this channel is for and what the idea is: making people realize that 'It's not just a snowboard!". I'm not touching on another whole bucket of stuff here that technically would have to be discussed....
The part where you speak of moving the feet around makes no sense to me. Can't follow! By cutting off the tail (just as a demo......) I removed a chunk of the curve that guides me through a turn!! The tail has less turn shape! (BTW I also say at that point that one can counter this with a progressive sidecut!!). The turn shape is not being changed!!! But it requires more effort to get that tail to finish the turn because the curve in the tail is less pronounced! You don't have to believe me. Buy a board like that and try to carve across the hill (on your heels in particular) in steeper terrain. You'll feel this instantly!
No, I'm not saying to decamber it!! I'm saying to compress the sidecut! Camber curve and sidecut curve are different!! And it is obvious that pushing into the centre of the sidecut arc compresses the arc in the most efficient way. That's just logical. Forget about the camber here! It's another variable that should be taken into account, but that was not the goal of this video!! You're now bringing in directional flex. I agree, but there's a thinking mistake, which is the biggest part of what's missing ibn this video: What you consider is all static!! There's multiple variables at play that change constantly throughout a turn: board angulation - having direct impact on turn shape - changes from little to lots from turn entry to exit... Speed and therewith force changes with it. And then, because that's not complex enough yet, there's rider movement fore-aft (in an ideal world). We always enter turns on the front foot, and depending on terrain and board design we move back through the turn with a particular timing, which changes with board and conditions....... So directional flex follows this!! Here's the video for that: ruclips.net/video/wK6qYIN89rI/видео.html
Then your confusion about pushing into the sidecut centre... I think I make perfect sense by saying here's a twin, to compress the arc think of where skiers are mounted on a ski - well, in the centre of that arc! But we're not skiers, so in theory it's most efficient to mount a rider's feet an equal distance away from the narrowest spot of the board, which on a radial sidecut would measure equal width under each foot. Not sure how that's not true or confusing.
We're mixing two things that both are true. I'm solely talking about sidecut and rider placement over that. I am also not saying that one shape or setup is better. I'm saying a certain setup needs to be ridden in a certain way. I've had no success at all riding my 22mm tapered Simple Pleasures front foot heavy on groomers. I've messed with it and my technique for a full week to figure it out. If I want to ride it more neutrally, placing myself further back, which puts me more into the centre of the sidecut, is perfect. If I ride it at reference marks, I have to shift onto the back foot very, very early in the turn. Still initiating through the front foot, but moving back really early. It depends on riding style and timing.
This video is supposed to give people answers to potential things they experience on certain boards. It should empower people to experiment and take my notes into consideration. Since NOBODY in the snowboarding industry is telling us how these things work, I'm on my own with my own experiences, which I'm trying to share as best as I can. You are bringing in more theories but no examples from experience. We may both be wrong!! But I do believe that this video - as incomplete as it is - gives a very easy to understand visual. From all your previous comments I can only assume that you're just like myself very much a thinker and very analytical - probably worse than me... (I don't want to put anyone into me head. They'd instantly freak out and go insane!). Please remind yourself of who this is for. Technically there needs to be one single 10 hour long video about board design, if you want the completeness you keep demanding under many of my videos. That just can't be done! Every design aspect links up with another.... It only shows how difficult it must be to design a really good snowboard!
Sorry, I didn't even answer your comments fully. It's too complicated! I can just about follow your train of thoughts - while seemingly most people could follow mine here, which shows you how bloody difficult it is to make these videos in a digestible manner!! Come to Fernie. Let's sit down and you explain to me again what you all mean here.
That took a full hour to write this! I feel like an idiot! It's 9.30am and the hill is open.... what am I doing here?!
Can you please make a video to correct my mistakes? That would be helpful! Happy turns!!
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel So, how many coffees for the 10h video ? 😂
Seriously, thank you very much for taking the time answer, appreciate it!
You are correct, I am very analytical and I am a curious nerd. Thus my comment(s) do(es) not aim to criticize nor question the goal of your video(s), but to gather additional knowledge or clarify things that I am not sure I correctly understand yet.
In fact, I also thought that you are a bit like me and enjoy nerding out deeper and deeper on things e.g. here in the comments, even when you have to compromise to go less deep in the video.
Like you said, we both could be wrong with the theories, but some brainstorming and challenging them might lead to better ones.
Funny thing, I am aware of and did think of the extra factors and dynamics of a turn like the fore-aft movement, but did not mention in my comment to not add yet more complexity. 😆
For now, just two simple questions, that may clear up a lot already:
1. Are you saying that the "Korua effect" of a turn being hard to close is the otnly/main adverse effect of taper on turning? (You can answer this Yes/No)
2. What do you mean by "sidecut compression"? I can only think of tightening the turn by putting more weight/higher angulation in, but that would be the decambering that I am supposed to ignore for now... 😬
A snowboarding trip to Canada sure is on the bucket list and it would be a blast to incorporate the opportunity to ride and nerd out with you! 😀. For this season, I am happy when that can finally start at all (torn a muscle fiber end of fall 🙄). You do not happen to plan another Europe visit this season?
Thank you for illuminating why I love my korua powder board (pintonic) at my mellow local hills (Monarch & Cooper in CO) and why it stresses me out on steep terrain at Arapahoe Basin! Is there any board you would recommend more than the Stranda Descender for technical steep terrain?
Don't get me wrong! Korua is fine. They work everywhere. But it is just more work on them in steep terrain and requires more skill. Just saying this here, because I don't want to come across like I'm saying something 'negative' about the brand. Just pointing out a difference... :-)
The Descender is great. But it is also on the stiffer side of things - which most freeride boards are. The best alternative is a Jones Flagship, which I find too stiff in the nose and just not quite as damp and versatile as I find my Descender. But I've ridden Flagships for 10 years prior to Stranda, and I always liked that board.
This is great insight! I've watched this video twice back to back, and I'm still kinda puzzled. I think I know I no longer want Korua for "traditional" carving, but I am unsure about what to buy. Those very long boards (like Stranda) scare me, I want something more classic. And this got me thinking and wondering. There's Jones Freecarver 6000 and 9000. Do the same principle for tapered boards also apply to different sidecut radiuses? I.e. will it be so that the 9000 will be less useful/more difficult on steeper terrain when compared to the 6000, due to higher radius and more difficulty in putting it on edge and bending to have a tight turn on steeper terrain?
That's a whole new video......
Depends on ability level and the general rule: tighter sidecut has a lower speed limit since you just can't go high speed through tight radii - too much g force! Chatter!!
The 9000 is clearly better for steep terrain, but can you ride it???? Larger radii need to be put high on edge to bring them around. That requires skill! Not everybody can just hop on one of those and go down everywhere... Hope that makes sense!
And no, taper and radius in this regard don't connect on that same level.
And in regards to Stranda and length: you can't apply the same thoughts about length that you've developed with say Burton boards to Stranda! Stranda designs the boards to be ridden longer without having to fight them! Longitudinally softer, torsionally stiffer!! They're meant to be put on edge instead of sliding around. And once you do that, that flex and length of the effective edge will give you so much more confidence than a shorter board ever could. Trust me on this one! I've seen it over and over again with people I put on a Stranda. If the rider is past the skidding stage and wants to carve, these boards will assist you more than anything I've ever ridden!
Lars, I ride a short fat, I am tall and leggy so my stance width is wider than the ref stance markings. My question is, should I narrow my stance to match the reference stance markings on the board, or should I keep my back foot on the reference mark and move my front foot forward, or should I move both feet equally fore and after of the reference stance markings? Thank you sir 🙏
@@stufish73 watch my previous video. 👍
Perfect 👌
Ha! My confusion inspired an episode!
Nice.
100% did!! :-) I had this video on my list anyways, but your comment created the spark to directly connect it to the last one. Thanks for that! :-)
I am happy to be your nerdy snowboarding muse! 🤣
Thanks for the good work, and I hope you get plenty of coffees!
@@FazeredTube hahahaha, nice one! 🙂
Taper really bothers me on my race boards. I had a Donek MK and preferred my old 158 Madd but in soft boots I actually don’t mind my Cafe Racer at all. I’m 27.5 boot so I think the extra room up front helps me with boot out that I have with less tapered shapes. The rear foot can get away being closer to the edge since the board has made a trench for the back foot.
I love my cafe racer!
Great video, loving the attention to detail. I have a question though: does it not matter that taper might shift the centre point of our radial turning circle?
In other words: on a true twin with radial sidecut the centre of the circle created by the sidecut is equidistant to both my feet. In your example where you cut off a twin this is still true.
But on a tapered board with a radial sidecut that same centre point could be at an angle slightly behind me - imagine if you cut your twin in half longways and widen the front only, now you have a tapered board but you’re in the middle of the effective edge still - in this case I’m drawing a circle but my board is not perpendicular to the circle, it is pointing a little outwards because of the taper.
I hope that makes some kind of sense 🤷♂️
When you do what you said, making the board wider in the tip, you're shifting the waist of the board backwards and the rider is then - if you don't change the position of the inserts - standing in front of the centre of the sidecut / waist. The purpose of my example, which is of course not real life (tapered shapes surely aren't made by chopping off tails, hahaha....) was to simply show how you can be set back on the board while still stranding in the centre of the sidecut with equal distances between each foot and the waist of the board.
@ thanks for the response Lars this makes sense. I guess I was thinking that in this example we would still be centred on sidecut, because the waist (i.e. narrowest part of board) is now behind the centre of the sidecut?
Loving your work. I have no idea if me overthinking sidecut ellipses will make be a better snowboarder, it’s fun to understand why boards and skis behave differently though.
@ the waist is the centre of the sidecut. At least on a radial sidecut. Don’t confuse effective edge with sidecut!
Very interesting. I have a ton of korua boards and have always found them perfect on the steep...but i will just akid a bit to scrub some speed. I went to them because their stiffness matches my hefty 260lb weight. Andything from stranda for that weight you consider for carving the steeps?
@@horacionochetto8454 Pipeliner 185! 😅🤙 Korua is not that stiff.
The gentemstick has this thing they call accel camber where the highest point of the camber is much closer to the back foot. I guess that helps with back foot heavy riding? The japanese snow surfing style seems to be very back foot heavy at least visually. Opinions?
I would agree. But someone here said that he's ridden a whole bunch of Gentems and that they work quite well on the front foot. Super interesting this whole thing
@@Justaride-Snowboard-ChannelThe gentemstick chaser for one (which has the same shape as the hornet basically) needs front foot heavy riding on groomers to not fel washy. The opposite of the very similarly shaped elevated surfcraft red tail hawk. I have booth and they are very different on groomers. If you mount the red tail hawk forward shifted it actually rips on groomers.
@@sebastiangronkvist3897 that is so interesting!! I've literally only ever experienced heavily tapered boards that wash out when power onto my front foot... Damn! Gotta buy some Gentems! :-)
My K2 Niseko Pleasures has 20 mm of taper and I mount my bindings set back about as far as I can while maintaining a 20 inch stance width.
Thoughts?
Same here on the same board! Hahaha.... :-)
@ that’s hilarious 😂 I love this board. Carves great, solid float, fast black base, top sheet never scratches. Checks all the boxes that I care about.
@@jaybartlett2561 I have the very first with the Cherry Wood top sheet, Simple Pleasures. I don't believe the Niseko is actually different. I saw them back in the day together at a trade show and played around with them. Everything looked and felt identical... Yeah, the base is great!! Graphite sintered...
Your cardboard buddy should be called Gumby because he's so bendy, Timmy because he's so abused, or Peter.
Hahaha, nice one!! 😅
That's the boarding business card
Awesome video, great explanation. Thank you!!!
Btw, every new chapter of the video with the cashier machine sound... kind of weird...
@@cinnabon888 thanks for the feedback. Yeah, just playing with stuff…
All the boards I have designed, the set back was based on the effective edge. My guess is, some companies that make boards are having factories do the engineering and the marketing/development department of said company comes up with the specs and basically have zero concept of what they are doing.
Going by EE is pretty much what the vast majority of companies does. But then some don't... hahahahaha! :-)
What do you think of the Rossignol XV?
@@Antox68 Magnetraction….. softer tail than nose….. double no! 🙂
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I'm curious why do you think softer tail than nose is bad? I never understood the traditional stiffer tail design. A stiffer nose sticks out more in pow and gives more stability when riding on the front foot, and a softer tail makes the board move maneuverable and helps absorbing bumps and shutting down speed.
@ stiffer nose absorbs less vibration and is stubborn when you want to bend it into a turn shape. It also rises less in pow than a softer nose, since the resistance against the snow doesn’t flex it upwards to get to the surface but rather makes it try to plough through. Then, forces increase throughout a turn while the weight moves onto the backfoot simultaneously. Hence a stiffer tail goes with the dynamics of a turn. Xavier’s take is seemingly different, and I think he’s got his own reasons for that. Of course stiffness and softness can always be too extreme, so it’s a bit relative. 🤷♂️
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel You made some interesting points there, I haven't thought about it that way.
@ I’m 100% sure that Xavier’s idea behind it makes just as much sense as my logic. It’s preference and riding style and how you perceive and interpret your whole snowboarding approach. 🙂
How about calling the board Cardy B 😜
I'm placing my vote on this one ☝️
Awesome suggestion
I'm sorry but are you saying there are boards where the recommended stance is in front of the sidecut? Cause I don't think so.. Actually most powder boards are set back on sidecut and board.. I'm a little confused by your point. I think you're not taking in account most of these boards have a multi radial sidecut and that's why you're not actually in front of the sidecut..
Trust me on this one and watch this and my previous video again. It's so obvious! :-) Just look at the Hornet graphic I put into the video!!
K2's Cool Bean for example stated: "Set forward by x amount".... I know it seems weird, but once there's taper it can make sense.
You might be confusing sidecut and effective edge, which, to prevent that from happening I've explained again in this video and had already explained in many others. Important difference!!
Yes, multi radial sidecuts change this to a degree. But on that Hornet - as the graphic shows - you're literally standing on the waist with your back foot. No tighter tail radius can make up for that!
Sidenote: in that graphic where I state "Centre Of Sidecut" it says "(on a radial sidecut)" right underneath. Might not have been that visible, but anyhow, I feel strongly that my point is beyond an opinion. My brain can't look at it in a different way... that board's outline and insert placement tell the story!
This channel is the new bible.
I'm creating a cult to take over the world! Hahaha....
"potato deck" because of the color
Justacardboard😅
Epic!
Im not sure i see the point of determining the center of sidecut. You are only riding one side at a time. Your board doesn’t care where the other sidecut is when on edge. Its still just a part of a circle(or sort of). I agree that it feels weird to have that much taper, but i think of it like your sidecut is angled away from your front foot. Its probably just a different way of thinking about the same thing though.
I think it's physically important to understand whether one should apply more front foot or back foot pressure on different boards. That's definitely a noticeable thing.
@ I definitely agree with the extra back foot weight that a tapered board needs from my experience. I can see how showing the center line can represent how much. Im just thinking that from the sidecut itself, it shouldn’t be any different lets say on a toe side than if you shifted your front binding to the heel and your back binding towards the toe side. Interesting stuff
Card board twin should be called rental.
Hahahaha! Maybe I should then also rent it out! Seemingly a very versatile deck!! :-)
The Mental Rental - One size fits all, fold as needed. 😂
@@elho001 hahahahahaha.....
Thnx Lars, the cardboard "wiggle stick" really works for explaining, I'm ridin groomers on a 1'61 pow carve Nidecker and some days on a Capita 1'56 twin camber, here in Spain the terrain changes a lot, wider, steeper, icy, etc, doin' my best to find the good lines and apply your tips 🙏🏂⚡️
So that’s why Nitro eliminated the taper on the Pantera.
Interesting!! Did they?! I like taper! Anything between 4 and 15mm depending on length of effective edge. But yeah, maybe they made it more user friendly. 🙂
The Korua’s took me some time to adapt to as I have been a fan of progressive sidecuts for decades. Great video, great channel. Keep up the good work and happy turning! 😊
"Wilson"
Hahahahaha!!! Nice one :-)
"100% of riders found the Wilson to ride better than a Gilson"
@ hahahahaha
Why not just call it the Card-board. Or maybe the Hobo board.
I love "The Card Board"! :-)
If you glue on some carbon fiber rods, you could even call it the "Card Board Pro" ... 😜
I think the way Gentemstick describes their taper is actually the right way to do it and the industry should follow suite.
This is because the taper comes into effect on a turn, which takes place on one edge, so recording taper based on one edge makes sense to me.
One could push back on this and say taper affects the ride while you’re flat basing it. But for this, maybe we need another Justaride vid hehe
That is a good point! However, the reason I disagree is that nobody looks at a longitudinal half of a board when they see a board, and the common definition of taper is tail narrower than nose. And then the specs talk about nose width and tail width in numbers... So people go "Ah, I see, the tail is narrower than the nose by say 10mm!" And then they read "Taper: 5mm". It's just confusing the heck out of the average rider.
Nerd alert!
Ridden more than 20+ years on boards WITHOUT "progressive sidecut", that is still the hardest part for me on a new board. Where are the two radius blending...? Where is the real center of this blended radius...? Am I feeling two different center points...? Then have to adapt to these 2 different radius in hard and chunked or steep terrain and figure out where to position the weight... Was the hardest adaption of the past years for me. Tapered boards or setback riding... No problem to adapt my body movement to, if the radius of the edge is consistent... But progressive two radius... Not so easy for me and a 20plus year learned muscle memory. Maybe a topic for a different video.
Yes!! Video is on the list! It's much more subtle and often doesn't require much change. Like... on this Hornet in the video the 7m radius in the tail may well just be blended into the last 15cm of the effective edge... The blends have to be super drawn out in order for the sidecut to not show any abrupt direction changes. Hence, it often just aids with a certain behaviour of the board rather than totally changing the way it should be ridden. I'll try to make a video to my best abilities. ;-)
Doesn't both exist? That is, boards that blend it smoothly into what I rather would describe as an elliptic or non-circular sidecut, as well as boards that do use abrupt radius changes to implement their flavour of traction tech?
PS: I do second (once again 😉) the request for a video on more complex sidecuts. 😀
@elho001 of course they blend it in. Just a bit hard for me as a German native speaker to describe this in English. The feeling for my motion is just weirder. Weight on frontfoot... Entering with a 10m radius... Then weight transferred more to the back foot while in the same moment the radius is powering down to the 5 or 6m radius. Just completely not so predictably in complicated or steep conditions as if you operate just with a fix 8m radius from entering til exiting. Even getting weirder if the board is high angled in a deep carve. Or maybe I'm just getting old or my muscle memory tries to fool me a bit...
steepwater 179
I wish you had a real profile name and pic. I can’t get an idea of who you are. Seemingly you’ve been snowboarding for a very long time and you’ve got a lot of experience. But I just don’t understand what most of your comments mean or what they’re aiming for. What is steepwater 179? A board I assume? And then what is this supposed to express? Would love to interact, but I mostly don’t know how.
I think Steepwater is an older Arbor snowboard m.ruclips.net/video/LUoTfvpcxkM/видео.html
@@ionescuff Arbor happened afterwards
the 179 was my first tapered board
YT took down my page long response
This channel is sooo good. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, it doesn’t go unnoticed. 🫡
Thank you!! I appreciate this!! :-)