Anders Lind vs Noshad Alamiyan | Durban 2023 World Table Tennis Championships
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2023
- Denmark vs Iran
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What are your thoughts, is Anders right or not? Were the umpires able to resolve the issue correctly?
Anders looking for easy point here , just should have finished it like a man
a rule is a rule.. and that's it.. no need for debate
@@paulusantonius-vj8bq but you should know the rules? so your comment is inapropriate so read a book please and save me and the others from your nonsense thanks :)
That rule is that players cannot stop a rally, they should continue playing until the ball is out of play. It is up to the judge to decide whos point it is.
So, in this case, Lind should continue the rally. And when the ball would be out of play, he could come to the umpire or the judge and turn her attention to his opponent's behavior.
Saying that the player should not stop the rally.. is like saying a player could not ever stop a ball that it's obviously going to be out. A player should be alowed to stop a ball at any time.. and then decided if he was right or not. Is like saying that if the opponent would punch him in the face.. he would still be forced to play that ball.. cause that's the rule :))
Anders was totally in the right here. Rules are rules, accident or not.
Noshad playing 10pin bowling was the Highlight of the Match.
I should just have finished the point but his cheering sound made me think that my ball wouldnt hit the table and confused me.. i did however get a little bit too emotional which i regret. But in the rules it can never be his point. Its either a replay or my point
Omg real Lind
Yeah I think if it was unintentional then it should be replayed
Yeah, by rule, it should be your point although Noshad didn't mean to disrupt you. BTW, enjoy your play style, great touch and creative, reminding me another great player from the same country, Michael Maze.
Which rule(s) are you referring to? A lot of people seem very sure about this, but so far I haven't seen anyone being able to quote an actual official rule that supports the view that it should be your point. And ITTF's Laws of Table Tennis is very easy to find and only like 10 pages long. The umpire definitely could have (and should have, imo) called a let during play, though.
According to TT laws, if a player makes a disturbance sound during a point, the opponent should be granted the choice whether the point should be replayed. So I think you are right.
As a former professional table tennis player, during my early days I found all kind of "tricky" players who would do the unimaginable dirty tricks to have some advantage over you, Ex. switching the ball to a non-official one or broken ball, screaming out loud while serving, screaming out loud after making a point and staring at you in a defiant and disrespectful way, bad mouthing provocative/offensive remarks against you after making a good point without looking directly at you, hitting strongly the ball on purpose against your body specially when they are about to lose the match and acting innocent, stopping the game 2 or 3 times right after you serve claiming they weren't ready, intentionally wetting the ball before they serve, having their people staring at you maliciously and screaming you some names just to piss you off while the ball wasn't in play, illegal serving specially when players were penholders, purposely bad counting points or dishonestly claiming ball didn't hit the table, or calling off a good serve because it was supposedly a bad one, no sportsmanship at all with certain players who denied the use of an official alternative orange ball when opponent was purposely wearing an all-white attire, etc etc. Back then we would get one(1) referee only per table in National or international tournaments. Open tournaments didn't get one sometimes. Those were the times without cameras, smartphones and technology. In a few words, doing anything to break your concentration to get you mad so they could win, this applies only to certain players who knew would normally lose under regular circumstances against you and also with some veteran players specially during open tournaments with no age limits. Rules exist for a reason.
This also works in lower leagues ;) I hate when opponents take looooong time for a serve for example. Easy way to break the flow
I know exactly what you are talking about. My highest level was German 4th Division, where a lot of youngsters who are trying to go pro and a lot of veterans play. The amount of players who intentionally try to psychologically manipulate you is insanely high. You cant even do anything against it, when players from each team must do the job of the umpire. And even when you go higher on level, there are so many bad umpires, its insane. Its a huge issue in this sport, that so many players get away with unsportsmanlike behaviour because we dont have a decent way to punish it through umpires.
i play semi professionally for the under 18 club in denmark, and i cant help but agree with pretty much everything you said. Mostly the illegal serves and shouting either from the player or the bench is the most irritating.
Table tennis players can be the worst prima donnas; worse than injury faking futballers, worse than trash talking hoopsters, worse than mcenroe style tennis players. Takes the fun and status out of the sport, and even begs the question of whether a sport w/o rule enforcement is even a true sport.
I play table tennis for a long time but I was never in a club or tournament because of the testosterone and the non sportsmanship of so many young players. I have a good level ( but way not enough to pretend anything outside a regional amateur tournament) and I have some non academic moves ( obviously). I live in Japan and I play sometimes in a double and once I had to serve and my ball was in ( clearly) however the opponent said no and the referee ( a friend of the opponent) said it was out… worst, my teammate said also it was out 😂 … meanwhile both opponents served without 16 cm between ball and hand and the referee never said something ( I tried to say but he responded « it is ok, we are in a non official competition « )
As far as I know, the rule is not that if you speak or make a noise during the point then you lose the point right away. You have to cause disturbance and the umpire has to call it. That's their job, if each player stopped the game based on how she or he sees fit then the whole sports games are in big trouble. You play till told otherwise and that's the rule.
In here, Lind casually continued the play but also decided to make the call himself. I think if he had stopped playing altogether to show that he was actually disturbed would have worked but since the noise was minimal and seemed unintentional, it leaves it to the umpire to decide and not the player. Moreover, the fact that he casually continued the play, played a part in showing that he wasn't really disturbed.
☝️🤓
Intentional or unintentional cannot make noise except a natural grunt. Disappointed in umpires as well.
@@shujajafar105 bro💀💀
A fair sportsman would have given the next point volontary to his opponent. Alamiyan did not show fairness here. His reaction at the end shows it again. A pity.
absolutely correct. even if anders did NOT raise his hand, as he had suggested. the supervisor is a moron, as always they support their umpires, a pity. and a reasonably fair player, which Noshad apparently isn't, would have given the point back. Anders could have played the "roller" (it was not nearly a roller) way better, if it had been in a normal rally. any comment here suggesting otherwise has no clue about how good these players are!
@@Enritsche Thank you. Absolut correct! Other players would have react differently.
Alamiyan was making a sound when he hit the ball, is that the problem?
I've done it many times when it was my time as TT player.
Best comment of the day!
Two of the most exciting players to watch right now, and when they play each other they end up arguing. What a pity
It reminds me the double game of FZD/Wang Chuqin and Lebrun brother
There is no doubt about it. The rule says if one player makes any disturbing noices while playing, that player looses the point. It's alright if the referee didnt't know the rule but the supervisor should've known that.
It's not okay for the referee
this rules exists but no it isnt the point for the one who speaks the judge decides
So you're saying that Ovcharov should lose the point every time he grunts?
@@bengtbengt3850the rule says no not natural sounds
I am an umpire and just know the rule 😊
I learned the rules of table tennis.
I tossed the ball as vertical as possible.
Never hid the ball after the toss was completed.
Never disturbed the opponent during the match.
Played as fair as possible.
Lost many times to persons who played to win and followed no rules.
but you can sleep at night!
Right man,
Tks
The balance is to find ways to make your game impossible to deny. Every winning point you score matters more than the person "cheating". At some point, the "cheater" will be outed, then their career is over ... while yours will KEEP IMPROVING!
Skills do not have an upper limit until you hit the limits of the human body. So keep training! And WIN with SKILL!
honestly, just play until the umpire calls for a stop, or the ball is out of play
complain AFTER the point, if the umpire doesn't give the right call
ITTF rules are not all specific. Noise disturbance is too broad, what about exhausted and grunt or Ovtcharov on every ball return, that is more disturbing than one sound at one time by Noshad. Anyway, it is the Umpire decides whether the rule applies to the situation, not the player. Player is a player not Umpire. Rule is a guide, not rule. Who throw the ball vertical in serving, almost nobody. "vertical" in the rule just means not too much deviation from vertical, when excessive the rule will apply.
Noshad expected the ball to go long out of bounce thats why he wanted to scream Cho-le, instead hit the netroller and he realized at "CHO!"...in my opinion it is clear foul since cheering while the ball is still in game. unlucky situation but still clear i guess
Noshad was weak by saying he did not know the rule. How could he not know after playing for 30 years!? TT has, like, 3 rules to know! A respectful player would have known the rule, admitted he broke it, and grant the point to the opponent.
I'"m so happy ander lind win this match xd
Throwing the racket out of anger at the end of the game 😂😂 really shows maturity and sportsmanship 👏
Oh right, you obviously know a lot about sports 👏👏👏
@@sinakhamene5635 What does knowing sport have to do with anything? The manchild threw his racket, so that was immature. Go take your nonsense elsewhere fool
It is a trendy special technique of Truls Moregard! Many young players start using it😅
8:50 head shot 🎉
He didn't apologize. What a shame.
@@parham7234 good done
@@nelsonduarte1979 It's not english.
There are no thoughts about it here. The player who stopped the point after his opponent yelled cho-le is right. Anything that a player does that annoys or bothers his rival, by modifying the normal development of the match, is a point for the latter.
Wow awesome first game, Anders killed it 👍🏻.
That racquet abuse by Noshad after the game is another video on its own 😂
Both players spoke during the point
devastating decision, poor Anders, a shame for the umpire and his supervisor, I can't stand it!
The ball were already in the Alamiyan’s side when hi shouted.
he didn't intentionally did it. no offense but when you reach this level of competition, there should be one first rule on your mind - and this is for every sport not even table tennis - never take the job of the umpire/referee.
I thought Lind is a much more relaxed boy
Lind was wrong to stop play, but the shout apparently broke his concentration. So he stopped the point. He was right, and he was wrong.
Having said that, the official missed the call. And it was pretty hard to miss.
Table tennis has a worldwide problem with the few rules it has. They are easy to follow, but players abuse the lack of enforcement. Illegal serves, white clothing, intentionally distracting the opponent. Until the USATT, ITTF, WTTC, etc can learn that following rules means respecting the opponent, the problems will continue. Their passive attitude trickles down to club play worldwide. And those that respect end up on the losing end.
Most of thé empires are 'ot perfect. Some of them are juste empire for that particular compétition juste because they are Host of thé compétition. Am an empire since 2005. Presently am still a compititon player
Umpire vs Empire lol
1:06 the point!
Noshad should have given the point to Anders
It's true, you can not talk during a point then the point belongs to the other player. However it doesn't sound like Noshad Alamiyan is talking but merely some sounds to himself. Or what do you think? 1:10
It was a sound to himself as he made a huge effort. The ball was on his side and there was plenty of time between when he made the sound and he managed to scoop the ball up off the floor. Think of all the grunts people make when hitting hard.
yeah well its stil disturbed the point
Anders is right but it's not his job or authority to call it during the point. How he handled it ultimately cost him the point even though he was right. Afterwards say something to the official. Really it's just bad officiating. The Lebrun brothers also had this happen to them against FZD in a doubles match. The officials need to call chos that get returned. Players will learn to either not do it or be sure to wait until the point is actually over.
I gotta agree with Noshad here. It did look out and it was not intentional. Most players would not call it out anyway so a replay was fair.
According to this rule Ovtcharov should lose every point because his incessant grunting is a hindrance.
I doubt that he spoke intentionally, but if the opponent felt disturbed, the point should have been replayed.
Actually you can't replay the point. You have to award the point one way or the other. It should have been rules to Lind. The umpire wasnt doing her job
I think it was completely fine if the opponent has no issue with the talking. As he has objection, the rules must be followed. Rules are created for this very reason, to be followed.
I love how Noshad's serve motion looks like 3fps 😂
Firstly I'm surprised the umpire didn't know the rules clearly. Second when they called over the ref why didn't HE know the rules either???
2:51 nein nein nein nein nein!😂
one main rule is simple when there is a modification of the conditions of the game the umpires have to decide if this changed the result of the point or not .
like fan zedong vs lebrun brother! the point go to lebrun!!
im dealing with this every match i play LOL
You know, I just focused on their game afterwards and to be honest, I am starting to feel a little concerned about Noshad’s game. I see him grab his shoulder blades and i wonder if it has anything to do with his backhand dominant style. Don’t get me wrong, he is an elite player, but I don’t know if this style is good for him as far as longevity goes.
He can’t play forehand because of neurological problem
Congratulations!
Lebrun brothers have gotten points because of the opponents shouting before the point was over, it is a rule
It's written he can't use his fh due to a disorder but he made plenty of fh shots. So hmmm...
Rules are the rules……. Anders point 👍🏻
this kind of match give TT a bad name, bad attitude and BOTH players throwing their racquet at the end.
Anders is ABSOLUTELY correct here. Umpires job is to enforce the rule.
Wow that was so unfair! I think the rules allow for "natural" sounds like grunts etc, but in this case the CHO is so clear! Lind did the right thing by calling out to the umpire and putting the ball back on the court. How could this happen at a prestigious world event?
Clear point for Anders, bad decision by the umpires. Alamiyan's serves are highly illegal btw.
7:53 Why sorry?
Нandshake at the end of match was or not?
Obviously, strange match
In the ITTF umpire's exam study guide, it states that a let is to be called when the opponent accidentally obstructs or prevents the player from making a good return. Since Anders made an attempt at the ball (which was also successful) and Noshad's actions were not intentional, the point must be awarded to Noshad. In a case where the decision is a matter of interpretation of law and regulation 9such as Anders believes here), then he player may request the referee, but then after that, the referee's decision is final. A point is also never replayed in table tennis.
Two freaky guys
Is there not an argument for the fact that he made a sound during his point? As he thought the point was over but it indeed wasn’t.
Noshad tought that got the point but noshad couldnt think that andrew can get that
İ think that was a reflex scream
I am an empire (refferi) thé players was really right. You cannot talk when the ball is still on
Wrong, the game continues, and only when the umpire detects evil intention the match is stopped - important: its stopped by the umpire and not by the payer ! - and a yellow card is given
@@1xXNimrodXx1the sounds disturb the player, not the umpire. Those umpires don't give two shits about disturbing noises
Can someone please cite the exact rule everyone is referring to?
There is no "no speak" rule, but feel free to prove me wrong.
And neither is screaming considered "speaking". Otherwise Apes could speak, which is obviously wrong.
They don't know the rules themselves, normally it should be obstruction of sorts - there is no mention of speaking anywhere in the guidelines. it's up to the umpired to decide if there was a hinderance or not. In this case the umpire decided against it so the point isn't for Lind - The only rule close to it in the handbook would be:
4.3.2 If either the umpire or the assistant umpire decides that a player’s service action is illegal,
that a player obstructs the ball, that the ball in service touches the net or that the conditions
of play are disturbed in a way that could affect the outcome of the rally, that decision stands.
I mean it's right, but let the judge/umpire make the call...
Noshad has some medical issues. A really fighter. Anders made good use of it by receiving his serves in a way that is very difficult for Noshad to attack with backhand
Medical issues is no reason to refuse fair play. But really weird that the iranian changes hand to play forehand killer😅
@@sebribo1873 he can't forehand well with his dominant hand so he changes hands to smash
this is so shocking that the umpires and supervisors are not up-to-date with the rules!!! Feel sorry for Anders and also as an international player Noshad should have been aware of this rule too.
So is it about rules, now ? I think focus should be sports. And Anders should be pro enough to get over this not very loud noise made by Noshad.
@@4irmann name one sport that doesn’t have rules !! Bottom line is rules have to be respected and followed.
@@maxlondon7644 Yes, but shouldn't the focus be on the sport instead on the rules ? Rules are usually far from perfect. It's often not just black and white, but somewhere in between. Therefore, umpires / refererees have to decide. In this case they made a good decision regarding the sport -- just my opinion.
@@4irmann ignorance cannot be an excuse to hide behind. Sport rules are there to be followed whether one like it or not. Focus is irrelevant if you don’t follow the rules one can also say that’s the definition of cheating.
@@maxlondon7644 IMO no excuses or ignorance by the umpires, just evaluation of the situation and final decision. isn't it the same in all sports ? Basketball, soccer - you name it. Rules are always applied to different situations/circumstances. The sports channels are full of controversies regarding referee decisions. As I mentioned, it's not black and white. In this case the umpires decided not to give the point. And I like it.
😅it was just the scream of a .an doing an extra effort, no big deal at all. This incident simply shows that Anders Lind is emotionally fragile.
All that fuss about a rule every player should know since age 10 (the umpire decides, NOT the players... ever...!!), made Lind lose his fokus and his game... and the points are just running away from him. Fortunately he catches up againg.
ma man noshad doesnt have a forhand iguess
So was the umpire biased or is there actually a rule
Both were bad, first Lind for taking too much time complaining and Alamiyan in the end for making a Filus.
Umpire should know the rules
It's amazing how Anders Lind recover the point and reach round 8 despite his opponent going against the rules
Shame that the people officiating don't know the rules 🤷🏼♂️
What world are these umpires living in?
NICE GAME ANDERS. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
what kind of problem hat Noshad with his forehand?
Sorry. I have found out later in the video: shoulder injury.
13:14 😂
Anders tried to blind him but failed
He was right. Talking during the point because it was an unfortunate net ball is really disturbing.
It would be different if he moans due to the stress to reach it though.
Lind is big kid 👦he needs to grow up , the rule says players can not stop the game, they must continue until the end of the point then they can protest if they disagree 😮
Alamiyan has a forehand? 😂
Lind had true
The RULE is that the opponent may not disturb INTENTIONALLY. Noshad didn't disturb intentionally as he thought the point was over. Therefore, it was indeed Noshad's point.
How can you tell if something is intentional or not? Humans can be very deceptive
You break the rules - you receive penalty. Your intentions do not matter.
Wrong. It does not have to be intentional. If you bump the table or hit the playing surface with your off hand unintentionally, same thing. You lose the point.
It's not the same thing. Making an unintentional sound will likely never cost you the point.@@daverbook
@@ensontaylor4836 If you can't, what's the point of distinguishing intentional from unintentional? And Whose judgment applies if the intentionality can't be detected that clearly? Isn't Anders at fault in any case the? BTW here is clear that it was unintentional, if you think otherwise, you are paranoid.
The rules say u cannot speak.
But u can make voices..
And u shuldnt stop playin if the ball is on and the ampire didnt stop.
I say point goes to wierd backhand player!
Any body notice that 1 time he smashed the ball with his right hand.. very interesting
Anders was 100% right. Very strange that the umpires don’t know the rule. However, always be smart and play the point. Discussion is for after.
Do not spread bullshit. The umpire decides weather someone speaks during the point to distract the opponent and therefore interrupts the match, the player does not have the authority to do so. Imagine I stop the game because I play against Dima and his moaning distracts me so I stop the game and declare its my point.
Anders with small D energy in this match, pretty sad.
@@1xXNimrodXx1 what you say is just not true. Shouting ‘cho’ is very different than moaning. The player does have the right to stop the point when it is such a clear case as this, just like when the ball touches the t-shirt
@@Fluyts the only thing you can do to signal it, is raise your hand and wait for the umpire to call for "let" , trust me, if the umpire detects an evil intention when someone wants to distract a player he will act, this was not the case here, so you have no right to claim the point - let me know the rule if you want to prove me wrong
@@1xXNimrodXx1 yes that’s true. Not take the ball, but raise the hand and continue to play like Anders did. Noshad quickly made the point, although he knew he was wrong. A bit sad.
@@1xXNimrodXx1 it was cold in the hall. Thats why small d energy ahaha
Honestly, in the court Anders wouldn‘t have any chances. Saying, that speaking during the point is disturbing holds no water, because Anders couldn’t have evidence, that his opponent was “speaking”. Was he cheering? Or was it just a noise? Is any noise that you produce prohibited? I truly doubt it, otherwise neither D. Ovcharov nor almost any female athlete must play. Saying that anything disturbing is prohibited is pure BS, because disturbing is a subjective. Moreover, only am umpire is allowed to stop the game. Hence, Anders’ behaviour is one of the bad looser.
Noshad has medical issues, Lind argued about 1 Point really long, choled every second point , hit Noshad at 8:54 with the ball in the face and didn’t apologized… regardless of whose point it was, there was no good sportsmanship by Anders Lind in this game
At least Anders didn’t throw his racket after he lost and Noshad choed equally as much as Lind. And I don’t think it is bad sportsmanship to clarify his statement about why that point (that he won by the rules) is his. And maybe he didn’t notice that the ball hit Noshad because the score were so tight and you can see he turned around quickly and got upset.
the speak in point was absolutely accident. andres tried to get a free point
Saying a sound like that should IMO not be interpreted as "speaking". It could as well just have been the usual grunt or sound they make when they hit the ball
Yes but saying chole or Cho is considered speaking because it is marking the point is over when clearly the ball has not finished bouncing however I also see how it was a mistake seeing as it was a net ball with trajectory showing it was going to fall off the table so in my honest opinion he did speak but Lind shouldn’t have argued
What about the moaning sounds players make in rallies?
unintentional, rule doesnt apply
Technically, it was unintentional here too. Ander was being a bitch imo. The return was very slow, so even of there was really a disturbance, there is more than enough time to recover and continue the play.
To everyone saying "the rule says if one player makes any disturbing noises while playing, that player looses the point. "
Yes that's the rule however there is a big discrepancy on what is considered disturbing
- During dima's matches he is known to grunt several times during a rally and this is never called up.
- During this match both players several times stomped their feet to cover up the sound of the ball on the contact - you could argue this is distrubing but it's never pulled up and a common occurrence.
The fact is someone grunting has not been considered to be disturbing going by the president that has been set.
Ball bounced twice on Anders table. Umpire should've noticed the double bounce and know this rule or at least agreed with player.
1. It bounced once.
2. Anders stopped the point after Noshad shouted during the rally, so it doesn't matter how many times it bounced anyway.
3. If the ball bounces twice (or multiple times) on your side, you normally lose the point. But did you know that there is actually no official rule that says this should be the case?
When the ball bounces twice, the player A was unable to return the ball properly and B gets the point.
@@sebastianhocht6286 Captain Obvious.
@@_.Madness._ Captain Obvious is disguised for most.
the female umpire was clueless haha. it was not on purpose she says. now thats funny.
Clearly it was not intentional he just celebrated too early it happens dont be an ass
1:11 Noshad made the pre-mature cheering right after the ball hit the net, then he had to dive and save the ball. Anders had plenty of time to react to that and didn't seem to be disturbed by the cheering at all, but he chose to not return the ball and wanted to claim the point by the rule for an easy win. This is the REAL lack of sportsmanship IMO.
Doesn’t matter the tule states that if you scream you lose the point
@@alvarobenitezdelafuente6569 Rule 2.09 states - The rally shall be a let if the conditions of play are disturbed in a way which could affect the outcome of the rally.
So no. You definitely not lose a point when you accidentally shout. It's a let at most. In this case the play wasn't even disturbed because Anders was clearly not startled by that half a "cho" and had PLENTY of time to react to Noshad's return. He just chose not to, thinking Noshad already lost the point when he shouted.
I was playing an international match doubles and in the middle of the point my partner shouted chole but the point didn’t finish, so the umpire stopped the point and give it to the rival , if you shout you lose and it’s not about concerning the rival or not , in a game of pure concentration shouting will always bother the player
@@alvarobenitezdelafuente6569 Again the rule clearly states that it shall be a let and replay the point at most. Giving the point straight to the other side is not written in the rules.
What do you don’t understand I lost the point for shouting and your rules didn’t do nothing
Also in my country the rules says if you shout you lose the point
It was not intentional so the rule does not apply clearly. Anders know it. He messed up in this point. Hate these kind of dishonest player when they knowingly lose a point and trying to argue out... He completely lost my respect.
I´m glad Lind won the match, his opponent clearly not only "spoke", but shout during the rally. Besides that he displayed tons of unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the match. Umpire and supervisor looked like a joke in this decision.
Noshad is a cheater, not fair play at all. Right after the point you can try to get it but once you recover your mind just play fair play and leave your point to your opponent
Not easy to win by backhand only.
🤣
Pretty bad ruling
imagine being entitled enough to stop a great rally midway because you think you can sneak a point on a technicality. that shit is ridiculous, imagine basketball with no speaking allowed during gameplay
It is interesting that Anders said he was put off "by talking" during the point, when at match point he follows the trend to groan like a person in a poor 1970's porn movie (and at other times) when playing a shot. If this is not a distraction nothing is. Strangely when players are getting beaten easily they no longer need to make the noise 🤔
Yeah, there's a rule about it. But honestly, that's a stupid rule. It was clearly an accident, he didn't do it on purpose to disturb the opponent. That rule needs to be regulated. Cause the players are thinking that any sound is disturbing nowadays.
And for me that's a stupid rule cause in all the sports there are provocations an it's ok. But in table tennis u can't even scream for a point accidentally that you are considered a cheater 😂😂 lol
Can you please cite the official rule you are referring to?