Kyle & Vaush Team Up In Andrew Tate Discourse | The Kyle Kulinski Show
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- Опубликовано: 3 янв 2023
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"The first time I ever really listened to Kyle Kulinski’s show was in the back of a cab last summer. The driver had his phone hooked up through the stereo and was pumping out an episode through the car speakers - loudly, as if looking to convert a captive audience.
“Do you like Kyle Kulinski?”
The driver, Ahmed, was a recent immigrant and apparently a die-hard fan of Secular Talk, the political talk show that Kulinski broadcasts on RUclips. I told him, yes, in fact. I do like Kulinski, had come across his show several years ago, and, all things considered, he seemed pretty good.
“He understands what we’re up against,” Ahmed said. “Like Bernie.”
But I was surprised to hear Kulinski’s name mentioned in the same breath as Bernie Sanders, particularly with such adoration. Because what I did remember about Kulinski’s show struck me as mostly capital-P “progressive” takes on the news - the left wing of the Netroots crowd more than the democratic socialism Sanders has popularized.
It’s an impression that wasn’t entirely incorrect.
“I have no time for philosophical, airy bullshit,” Kulinski tells me from his home in Westchester, New York. “I don’t want to hear about Lenin. I don’t want to hear about Marx. I just want a super plainspoken, straightforward agenda with a straightforward way of selling it.”
With over 800,000 subscribers and nearly 670 million total views on RUclips, selling a progressive agenda is clearly something Kulinski knows how to do - even Democracy Now, the long-standing flagship of progressive media, cannot match his reach on the platform. Chapo Trap House can certainly boast a wildly devoted fan base (and a not insignificant degree of media influence), but their audience is roughly half the size of Kulinski’s.
While Secular Talk might be more likely to be looped in with the progressive networks around Air America and Pacifica alums like Sam Seder than the more resolutely socialist world, Kulinski’s fiery rhetoric, razor-sharp class instincts, and knack for withering takedowns sets him apart from his peers. Judging by his rhetoric alone, he’s closer to a Eugene Debs than a Chris Hayes.
But unlike Hayes, Amy Goodman, or his friend Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks - who began airing Secular Talk on his web network seven years ago - the thirty-two-year-old Kulinski is virtually invisible in the mainstream media. Despite his enormous fan base, his show has never once been mentioned in the obligatory trend pieces on “the Millennial Left” pumped out by the prestige media. Nor has Kulinski’s name ever popped up at all in the New York Times, Vox, the New Yorker, New York Magazine, or the Washington Post, despite his leading role in cofounding Justice Democrats, the organization widely credited with sweeping Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and the rest of “the Squad” to power.
Just last week, his Wikipedia page was deleted. The reason? “There is very simply no [reliable source] coverage of this person,” according to one moderator. In new media, he’s king - the Sean Hannity of the Berniecrat left. In old media, he’s nobody.
I suspect there are a few reasons for that. There is nothing “cool” about Kulinski’s show. (As a friend put it, “‘Welcome to Secular Talk’ sounds like something you’d hear on Egyptian radio.”) His no-nonsense social-democratic politics won’t get him much cred with the Full Communism crowd. He records his show not in Brooklyn or Los Angeles, but in a studio he built himself in his modest Westchester home. His hair is too groomed and his taste in clothes too preppy to qualify as “Dirtbag Left.” Nor has he ever attended an n+1 release party. “Not only have I not attended one,” he says, “I have no idea what that means.”
And yet he’s astonishingly plugged-in for a young man in the suburbs. Wondering how Sanders ended up on the Joe Rogan Experience? Kulinski, a frequent guest on Rogan’s wildly popular show, introduced them. “You make the most sense to me,” Rogan told Kulinski on a recent episode. “You’re a normal person.”
Much like Sanders himself, Kulinski’s show has a massive audience that just doesn’t compute with our media’s understanding of “what the kids want” or even “what the left-wing kids want.”
It’s probably for the best - the very woke and very WASP-ish decorum haunting much of the media world is nowhere to be found in Secular Talk. “Corporate Democrats over-focus on identity as a trick to divert you from the issues that unite us all - class issues,” he said on a recent episode. “That Raytheon decided they don’t hate gays or trans people - frankly, I don’t really give a shit what their take on that is..."
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I'll tell you this, Kyle -- I was 13 in 2013, which is when I first came across your channel. I never had the chance to fall down any sort of fascist pipeline because you helped set my critical thinking skills straight at a young age. Thanks for that.
Absolutely. Same for me
😂
I use 2 be a viewer of Sargon of Akkad. Many don't know this but he was pretty left wing at the start than ukip happened.
@@liberalsocialist9723
He was a liberal, not a leftist and your name is an oxymoron.
Please read more about leftist struggles and understand why liberals are not pro-labour and why leftists in the imperial core have reactionary biases against the third world.
Vaush is a liberal too, barely to the left of Kyle, actually Kyle is to the left of Vaush in some regards.
I learned to look beyond vaguely progressive politics, I believe you can too.
@@cezarcatalin1406Kyle more left than Vaush? That gave me a good chuckle. Good one.
I’m an older man. Me and my wife were going through a rough patch. I was looking for answers to my problems. There’s little to no resources for men’s relationships. So I went down the red pill rabbit hole. There’s a real need for healthy help in young men’s problems.
Just curious, if you do not mind telling more. Why didn't you and your wife seek the help of a professional marriage counselor? And what happened to your marriage when you swallowed the red pill?
@@darthbrandon2149 mistake were made on both sides. We talked about seeking professional advice. We decided to separate instead. We were separated for about a year. We’d seen what’s it’s like in the dating world. So we decided to work things out. My opinion on the red pill is. There are people I’d call well intentioned. I don’t agree with everything they say. At least they are trying to help. Then there are the Tate types. I’m older then most of his audience. So I can see the ignorance in his massage.
@@NickRedstar I understand. Thank you for sharing. I wish you the best of lasting happiness in your relationship.
*"There’s little to no resources for men’s relationships."*
The silly thing is that that's the right's fault. They're the ones pushing that men should be stoic and "man up", while the left are the ones who actually care about men's feelings but get ridiculed when they suggest that men should show them and share them. They're not going to solve the problem though, so I guess it falls to us.
A big part for the lack of emotional and counseling resources for men comes from that traditional masculinity mindset. "Since men aren't suppose to have feelings, there's no point in catering to that."
I remember watching conspiracy theory videos as early as 13 on RUclips, probably even info wars.
I fell to my lowest point in my life around when I started college and I remember being really into video games. That's when Gamer Gate started and I remember people like Anita Sarkeesian saying gamers were sexist and I felt attacked by that. I started watching anti feminist and anti sjw videos, MGTOW, libertarian videos, then RUclips started to recommend even more radical content.
Around 2016 I found Secular Talk and David Pakman on RUclips. That's when I started to become more leftist and voted for the first time ever for Bernie Sanders.
During this whole time I was single, lonely, and severely depressed. It's scary to think I would have fallen deeper into the hole with hardly any way out.
People like Tate prey on young men's insecurities in an ever changing world. The best I can think of is class solidarity and helping our brothers around us thrive.
Same here. When I was younger I was really interested in conspiracy theory shit like 9/11 and I look back, like damn, I was an idiot when I was young, but aren't we all.
“Oh no! Are you a BERNIE BRO???” -stupid libs
Lovely story despite the hard times, glad you have you, and go Bernie!
But isn’t true that feminism has pushed this thinking that all men are bad ? And the fact that lesbians love this so they can get a bigger chance at approaching women, it’s all about deleting the image of men period.
@@AntonioMartinez-xz3pt Bahahahaha. You need to talk to more women. #1 Feminism in general is male supportive because it recognizes that men have issues and that if men aren't taught better they will continue to assault and abuse women. Stop thinking a loud minority on the internet represents all women. #2 No idea where you got that absolutely nonsensical lesbian take, but lesbians don't need any help and just because many women are distrustful of men does not mean they will turn gay. How ridiculous.
You pulled me out of the alt-right pipeline. You are my favorite commentator now
You're not alone king. I hope you find happiness and peace.
@@abhinandanbanerjee5471 ONLY I AM THE KING !!!!!!!!!! you heathens leaving the right will be YOUR DOOOOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey man. Curious what videos did it for you? I have a friend who’s quote deep into the pipeline and wanna show him some of Kyle’s videos
Glad you made it out, buddy. I never fell down that particular rabbit hole - but only because I'm basically a boomer (turning 42 in a couple of months, lolsob), and the Internet during my angsty teen phase simply wasn't nearly as much of a radicalization machine as it has been for the last ~15 years or so. I was always vaguely antifash, but I didn't know anything, really, about politics in my youth. I shudder to think how I'd have turned out if I had been born only 10 years later.
That's awesome man.
Thanks for having this discussion. The left needs to maintain a consistent sociological and empathetic approach to people and their problems. I can't stand it when "leftists" become right-wing "bootstrappers" as soon as we are discussing the issues and problems of young men.
Big time. It's so incredibly easy to be pulled into that way of thinking. You're a young man just coming into their body, managing new testosterone amounts. It happened to me, and I've always had a left wing way of thinking even before i knew what that was.
The entire left is like that
This is..... Exactly what moderates have been trying to tell you for years now. And now when Vaush says the exact same thing, you're all clapping and agreeing with the exact same thing you shot down for years and years. Unbelievable. If that's not cult behavior, I've never seen cult behavior. Valuing the speaker over the content.
@They wouldn't have to censor me if I wasn't right moderates also push for moderation. That hasn't really been working out too well either
@@theywouldnthavetocensormei9231 well said!!
The first time I saw an Andrew Tate video I literally thought it was a parody and a fake character like Colbert used to play on the Colbert Report. It was that insane to me.
It's almost the exact same bit that Dick Masterson was doing trolling Dr.Phil like 15 years ago.
Same here
You know we're in hell when it's getting harder to discern which are joking, which aren't, and how it doesn't seem to matter
I'm a white male who use to be conservative. But I'm lucky enough to have come from a nation with very strong socialist roots. Things would've played out very differently for me if I had come from an American small town equivalent to where I'm from. Vaush is 1000% right in that comment in my opinion. I was very close from falling into the alt-right stuff, but I had friends who didn't give up on me, I was lucky.
What conservative values does rate promote? He promotes hedonistic values. I guarantee most of his followers would show up to vote for recreational weed and a $25 minimum wage.
@@daniellove162 if anything he's a lefty because of his conversion to islam. Leftists love mustafas
I’m not really a guy who wants to accept fully the left I just can’t
@@Illixmezgsvdudb Accept fully what? Explain what you mean.
@@Illixmezgsvdudb By "the left" are you referring to the people that Kyle is criticizing in this very video? To use your words, the so-called "woke" faction? Because good news, we here are against that shit too.
A friend showed your videos and over the course of a few months we became best friends debating policy. I’m now very much a progressive populist. Thank you, I will always appreciate the challenge to my mindset and the friend I acquired from it.
it's always good to be open minded
The ability to thoughtfully and seriously reconsider things and change your mind is really undervalued as a virtue in our culture, but it’s also a big advantage for being successful, in health, relationships, business/career, personal development etc. Good for you. I used to be a right wing libertarian and Kyle, Noam Chomsky, the existence of the nordic countries, and Bernie’s 2016 run brought me all the way over to left social democrat on the verge of socialism.
I am the opposite, I was a progressive, and now I'm not
So great to hear!
Welcome to the family. Glad you had an open mind to engage.
I have been so badly mistreated for saying this for the last 8 years.
@@dannyslag Goddamn dude. I had a teenage girl stalk my accounts, because I said she was misusing the term "toxic masculinity" (she was trying to say that any man who doesn't like the color pink is an example of toxic masculinity). Anyways, she stalked my RUclips and Facebook, causing a lot of issues, but I have nothing compared to your story. These people are batshit crazy, and it's the absolute worst part of being a liberal.
@@dannyslag You guys are indeed losers for this. The end.
@@dannyslag well, your interests are only on the economic axis so maybe you have some bad takes on gender, ethnicity, etc that triggers people off, idk.
i haven't crossed such insane IRL behavior, but in university i was on a feminist class and the professor (even if she was super cool and all) had this attitude of disregarding men, which wasn't a big deal but was a little disappointing.
@@dannyslag I cannot believe you graped those women. Seriously though these...sound a little far fetched. I know there's some crazy af radfems but there's at least more to the story here lol.
Welcome to leftism. Your identity politics created this monster. You liked it when it benefited you.
You, Vaush and Xan pulled me away from this pipeline. Thanks!
Awesome! That’s why I love Kyle, he’s a regular guy whose been through some stuff. A lot of “leftist” figures tend to be a bit out of touch w regular dudes I think. I’m saying this as a woman but I think I’m right. ;)
@Anonymous Thoughts Straw man. I didn’t label the pipeline I fell down. I was referring to the manosphere not fascism.
@@Lordofthefliess Now you're down the anti white and anti man pipeline. That's Kyle's ideology, give women and non whites special rights for "equality". He said to give "first dibs" to black people when it comes to business licenses for weed dispensaries. Total racism.
@Anonymous Thoughts Okey-dokey 👍🏾
@@threeofeight197 Same! Kyle is literally the only person who I don’t feel like might have a hidden agenda. He’s just an honest dude. Just concrete facts and direct as hell speech & logic.
people on the left need to learn that you can protect and promote equality for minorities and women while also giving support to young men, specially in the current economic crisis.
YES. I found out today that 80% of men 18 to 24 cant afford to go on a date either some or most of the time...
Then we wonder why they believe the INCEL idea that only rich guys get girls
That's fine, but nothing will change unless we get rid of the capitalist elite. Voting for the true left wing (not corporate dems or libertarians) in elections would help the most people, including men.
Thank you for actually addressing this! Been screaming about it for ages, until this gets properly dealt with it’s going to be a battle. Just want better lives for all!
Secular Talk specifically helped move me towards progressive ideology and away from these type of conservative grifters. Around Gamer Gate I was watching the typical Sargon of Akkad and similar anti-feminist infotainment, and held the standard Libertarian ideology. Fortunately I've always been interested in the talking points on all sides so I would watch Secular Talk and other leftist youtube personalities. It was a combination of that exposure, and my education in computer science that moved me far left very quickly. I dropped the Libertarian pipe-dream when I saw how abstract digital assets are worth more than any amount of labor or work one can do, and how corporate money always is self preserving and not interested in enriching anyone but themselves. Additionally when all those anti-feminist grifters started Trump dick riding in 2015 I saw them for the Fascists they are. So keep doing what you're doing good sir.
Damn man, I have almost the same exact experience as well. I was a teenage edgelord for some time, Typical anti sjw libertarian during Gamer Gate. Also studied computer science in university at the time.
I voted for Bernie in 2016 and lost all respect for the people who went hard for Trump and fascism. It was a scary precipice.
I am going to do better on this. Thanks Kyle for bringing it to the forefront of my attention.
If you do it in the way Vaush does, by using the feminist rhetorical device of framing male problems under the label masculinity, that would be doing wrong. In my personal opinion.
@@oraz. Curious what you mean by male problems in this context. There are both male and female problems that I would consider part of masculinity and femininity respectively, but I'm wondering if you have a particular case you're referring to here. In my view, an example of a male problem being inseparable from "masculinity" as it exists today, would be social isolation among men coming downstream from the broader social expectation of men to be independent & emotionally "strong". For women, I'd point to beauty standards within femininity & the negative effects they have on women who don't measure up to them - these are both problems that uniquely effect a lot of men or women that are caused by traditional gender expectations of being masculine or feminine. Importantly, I don't think these things are inherently part of masculinity or femininity (nor does vaush or others imo), but I do believe these are a part of the expectations we have in place in the world today so I think it's valid to point out problems with that.
If what you're saying is we should avoid framing like "toxic masculinity" I would agree, to an extent, seeing as how the well is very much poisoned there. Personally, I've had a lot of success just describing what the left means when they say toxic masculinity, but avoiding the actual term, when discussing these issues with men who fit the target demographic here.
@@oraz. that’s not what Vaush did in these tweets or in the interview he just did on TYT. He explicitly said there should be more discussions of how masculinity can be embraced in ways that align with leftist values, very clearly saying that he thinks masculinity does fit with it in some ways and doesn’t in others. Remember that masculinity is defined by the place and time, the culture, not some objective static thing across all points in time and places. A lot of things considered masculine in other places and times are seen as very feminine or even outright super gay by our standards in the US today lol
One of them btw is andrew tates extreeemely European and metrosexual style. The shortest shorts, effeminate ornate slippers, if he was a regular dude in the US he’d be made fun of for seeming gay constantly lol
@@lithill4739 Even the constantly repeated focus of men's problems being a function of them living up to being "Strong" is a problem and myopic in my opinion. So I think the entire framing is an issue, not just the phrase toxic masculinity itself. To a certain kind of feminist that is the primary way to understand men, in terms of internalized masculinity and that is becoming a self serving trope, and the dominant narrative. I think what you are saying is nothing new and and your commitment to understanding male problems as inseparable from masculinity is itself the problem.
@@Unclejamsarmy I'm sorry, but the entire framing of masculinity as being the underlying issue it hand is wrong in my opinion, and leftists should be more self critical of why they are committed to and ficated on that rhetorical framing. Vaush has pretty vehement about defending the framing of feminist masculinity rhetoric, defending things like the Gillette prime time ad for example. So I don't think we are on the same page, I don't think the framing in terms masculinity is good at at all. I'm much more critical of it.
Great take! People need to recognize the difference between making themselves feel like they are fighting the good fight and actually solving the problem.
I think they want to solve the problem without seemingly accepting right-wing hatred that is central to all these Tate types. It has always been hard on us Black and brown folks but no one gives a shit. But disaffected white men, we need to have real conversations, as we should. But you need to show love when it is us POCs. Also call out the hate all the time when it comes up
@@kylefenwrick5706 I know right. The Democratic party takes black and brown skinned Americans for granted. The former "republican party" hates black and brown skinned Americans. Unfortunately, whites sill make up a majority of American voters. I think it is also fair to say whites donate more $$$ to politicians to control the political sphere on the local, state, and federal levels.
If you are not white, the way to look at this is whites are extremely dangerous when they believe they have nothing left to lose. So yeah, it is a good idea - for everyone concerned - to see if we can reach a few of these disaffected white boys before they grow up to buy three AR's and ten thousand rounds of ammunition. Because if there is anything we know for sure, it's white men with guns and a brain full of hate, are not something we want more of in America.
@@kylefenwrick5706 It just becomes performative at the end of the day. You can't legislate love.
@@kylefenwrick5706 We ALL just need to realize that everyone needs help sometimes, that there are issues to be solved and that there are plenty of us to work on those issues all at once. Doesn't always mean we need to give into the "wants" because that isn't always healthy for the individual or society, but it does mean that we need to actually be looking to help out of a desire for compassion, and acknowledge that others also have problems that might not be the same ones we have, that people we don't always agree with still have issues to be solved and maybe some of that is actually part of the problem to start.
The only way we get through all this is to stop the hatred all around, no more demonizing, no more blaming people just because of something they have no control over or where they were born. Most people are out there just trying to survive everyday, they don't hate anyone or any group specifically, they don't want to hold anyone else back, they just want to be able to live their lives peacefully. Most people are like that, but many of those people might start picking the wrong side if they are constantly demonized because of things they didn't choose, never did, or aren't taking part in. They might start to look at the radical of the "other" side as a better choice if that side isn't constantly demonizing them. And history always shows nothing good comes from turning one specific group into the scape goat for everything, eventually it comes to a breaking point.
We just have to put aside any old hate and actively show that we are working together, if all we do is bitch about things then no one else will think we actually want change. "Be the change you want to see in the world", even if that isn't easy to do.
We as Progressives need to learn how to let people into our club
I don't want to be part of any godamn club lol
I wanna rebuild the club, after I watch it burn down.
@@marcomoreno6748 I get the impulse, but it’s a bad one imho. That’s how you build and wield power
Glasgow bawbag.
It's pretty easy to be in the progressive club, just whine and cry all day and blame all your problems on some invisible entity working against you. Nothing is ever your fault, it's always someone else's fault, and it's always someone else's responsibility to fix everything bad that's ever happened to you. That's progressivism. Oh yea, and always pretend like you actually want to help someone else, because you're so empathetic and altruistic, but you actually only care about personal gain.
Agree completely. Keep doing what your doing
That first tweet ugh. Exactly the kind of thing that alienates these dudes in the first place.
People like the person in that tweet believe that the only thing that Leftists should say to men is, "don't rape women". Like no shit.
Now I need to see the Schwarzenegger / Carl Weathers handshake meme with Vaush and Kyle.
I always like it when you and Vaush team up - you and him should have another wholesome, level-headed conversation soon.
My introduction to RUclips politics was Jordan Petersen. Not sure why the algorithm pointed me that way, being a Midwesterner born and raised in the boonies. I watched a couple of his lectures and was half paying attention but he sounded sincere and intelligent. I hate to think of what would have happened if I didn’t search his name on YT. I ended up clicking on a Michael Brooks video and found my people.
God I miss Michael brooks…
Rest in power, king!
I never went down that route but oh yeah RUclips has this weird right to far fight stance. Where I don't watch anything like that but 90% of political ads I get are from guys like Jordan Peterson, Ben Shaprio, and PragurU especially. So if thats the case then other people also will be exposed to that kind of crap even when they're not looking for it
Same. Although I still think Peterson has some valuable incite. Let's try not to be quick to discredit anyone with different views. It's important to hear intelligent people from different perspectives. Although the lefts initial attacks on him, really jaded him. The black and white characterizations is what drive a bunch of influential people to the right.
Vaush is wrong to say that blacks are an oppressed group'
systematic racism has been abolished in America
racial inequality is not the cause of high crime rates in the black community
the causes are the war on drugs and soft policing chosen by black residents
It's bizarre to me that some leftists can believe that:
a) restorative/rehabilitative justice in the context of criminal justice is a good thing
b) doing more outreach to help teenagers who accidentally watched the wrong content on the internet and formed some wrong beliefs is not worth it and a bad thing because they are somehow inherently bad people
Cognitive dissonance is a trait of all people, not just the ones we politically align against.
It’s not that bizarre when you realize that the “woke” left is actually a hate movement against straight white men more than a movement for diversity or inclusion. In that context there is never any empathy or understanding for straight white men or even boys who fall down the alt-right rabbit hole because it’s already accepted that they were evil to begin with.
They "believe" both because that's what they're told to believe. People often don't take the time to make sense of their own compartmentalized thoughts.
A leftist thing that helped me sex-wise is the consent movement. I learned how to ask women what they want, and after becoming good at that (took me a couple of years, granted) I find dating easy and fun!
That first tweet is terminally online personified, so completely disconnected from reality and how people actually think and behave. I'd wager most teenage boys aren't thinking "AH yes, I must become a fascist misogynist so that I may maintain my privileged position in society and keep those pesky minority groups in their place!" You come to this conclusion when you exist in a bubble. The people who get dragged down this incel rabbithole usually don't believe they're in position of privilege in the first place let alone actively think that they need to maintain it by aligning with and pushing specific political and social prescriptions. They think women and minorities have it easier than they do and that they're being lied to, and rather than address this at the root too many seem to just want to completely validate the delusion.
Kyle is right that effective politics are separate from creating specific social spaces, but creating those social spaces isn’t just a “hobby” - sometimes people want to build communities to get away from specific Bs that they face day-to-day, and that’s important for them to be able to do
Hobbies are important for people to be able to do too. That’s the roses part of bread and roses (leftist phrase coined I think by Emma Goldman and the reason DSAs logo is a rose). But also just psychology/sociology. But it’s not politics or revolutionary
I'd agree broadly with what you said, but I don't think it's an accurate interpretation of what the original tweet they were responding to (or the broader trend on the left in general) was getting at to say they were building communities here.
Pointing out the personal choice angle of why men go down those pipelines isn't community building, it's emphasizing moral failures on the parts of that group (which I don't even necessarily disagree with on individual levels). It is, however, not intersectionality and it's not progressivism. To the point, if the left was better about reaching out to disaffected young men that wouldn't threaten those social spaces in any way. The only "social spaces" it would threaten are "the left" - if these people view "the left" as their social space and the existence of men who have changed their minds is a threat to that. I think it's unhealthy to treat online politics as a social space. I don't think Kyle or Vaush or anybody on that side of the issue are advocating that everybody on the left needs to do outreach and stop talking about other issues, I think they take issue with moral grandstanding by many on the left against demographics they would like to see more lefties come out of.
Since it's at least somewhat relevant, I understand the impulse for people to want a social space that accepts them/doesn't force them to deal with the same bs they face every day. I'm a trans woman. I just think the most effective way of building those spaces is not to sit on a moral high ground and shit on people, which I unfortunately think is a common trend in the left in general. I don't think the left broadly doing a better job of countering reactionary outreach to young men would prevent trans spaces from serving their communities, or any other similar social spaces.
I agree, but oftentimes this 'BS' they have to deal day by day is not some inhumain behaviors of racist and bigoted people, but rather perfectly normal human interactions perfectly commonly sprinkled with a bit of ignorance, awkwardness, silly questions or remarks and I don't know, weird looks and incoherent gestures. You know, all those things people come across in their social life. But those online spaces often reassure people that it is not normal for anyone to be wrong and awkward, but offensive to the brink of tragedy. And there is a whole bunch of books explaining why those people around us are terrible! So better get closer, it is WE you can only trust... unless of course you do something terribly wrong showing everyone else YOU'RE the part of the problem too, then you're expelled. Because it happens too often, it is MUCH WORSE than a hobby in my opinion; that kind of escapism from 'bullshit around them' breaks people, not helps them in the long run. Bullshit will always exist, but it is for our own good to try to actively reduce it disputing with people and staying active part of society.
@@blinski1 I take it you consider the concept of “safe spaces” to be a bad thing in general then? Asking genuinely because we might just have to agree to disagree haha
@@Unclejamsarmy Oh yeah I agree it’s not really “politics,” but I think how “revolutionary” it is can be debated depending on the degree to which the broader system seeks to prevent those communities from existing/forming. You’re right in that it wouldn’t be revolutionary in the socialist sense of the word
There are so many young dudes that could be swayed by leftist principles instead of right wing dogma if the left actually put in the effort to appeal to them properly. I know this because I was one of those disaffected young guys that got swayed by the right wing during 2015-16.
You leftists need back your old tough guys like George Meany and Huey Long.
Or George Wallace
He was a great Democratic leader
@@A_r78 no he was one of the prominent dixiecrats during civil rights. While there was a huge difference between some stste democrats and federal ones. The federal democrats had begun to go towards larger government powers with FDR and The New Deal, meanwhile the Republicans stared moving further to the right. I dare you to call any KKK member today a democrat. It'd be a good way to get your teeth knocked out.
@@kyle-ld2gh Makes sense why Biden is the way he is
Lord crime bill himself
@@A_r78 and how was able to do something that you morons never can. Admit he was wrong and made a mistake and changed his position based on current evidence. Try again though halfwit
It's the crossover we've be waiting for!!
Kulinski and Kochinski here with the good takes
19 year old me would have definitely followed Andrew Tate today. I was depressed for a few years and the only experience I had with dating was a 1 month relationship where the girl I fell deeply in love with cheated on me. But I’m 25 now and I’m not as impressionable as I was
Good on you
There is no benefit of the doubt given to teenage boys. They need help as much as anyone else and to ascribe blame to disaffected young men, who have been begun to drop out of the job market according to one study. It seems these guys are being lumped in with the patriarchy when in reality they are directionless and are hurting. I was lonely and disaffected as a early 20-something when the "Me too" movement was happening. Partly because my job was terrible, difficult work where I was being abused and underpaid but I was terrified as being seen as a creep or much worse, as a predator. It's difficult enough trying to find one's way in the world and to exclude someone because they mistakenly found answers in a conman is victim blaming. This only makes the problem worse and you don't want a population of angry, misogynistic men.
I try to build up the younger guys around me because they need big brothers and men to look out for them rather than some flashy, douchebag on the net. Part of becoming a man is learning to operate in a system, succeeding at said system, and finding one's individuality aside from the system; you don't have to be a dickhead for this to be done.
@JumpinJoe THANK YOU! for understanding your role as an American male. As a former businessman in retail for 15 years, almost every single customer I had was a young man under 30 years old. Many of my customers were in the military. It was not something I consciously did, but looking back, I know I made a positive impact on many of my customers. They all saw that I made something of myself in business. As of today, I know of three of my former customers who are following in my footsteps in business, in the same retail industry, as they are now retail store owners.
I sincerely understand what Kyle and Vaush are saying. But at the same time, I believe it needs to be said that the business model of the online "left" new media is not geared to a niche audience. Online "left" new media does not have unlimited funding like online "right" new media. In my opinion, the discussion should be about "How are we going to fund online "left" new media to address this important issue?".
Even a lot of the "we need to build healthy masculinity" guys are fucking weirdos and creeps and really playing to women, not men.
It's also crazy how much man hating is so mainstream now. It's actually scary for young men who haven't built up any sense of self esteem or confidence.
Too little too late now. After years of abuse, most of the young men the left has alienated will never want any part of what the left is doing. Even if you try to reach out to them now, it's going to come across as just an attempt to add another tribe to your push for power. Because that's exactly what it is.
Trying to help men? Are you a rapist apologist?
I’d argue removing the system and replacing it is more attractive and more revolutionary thus the message to push to young men.
As a feminist and woman on the left, I agree that we have failed young men. Most right wing popular figures have gotten to these groups primarily from recognizing their struggles in modern society & giving them basic life advice for how to deal with it. All of the political stuff comes after they've already been hooked in.
We could be doing the same but better because we have sustainable solutions that actually lead to healthy social relationships across society. Men are lonely; what better way to help them get a date than explaining how to create a safe environment for women, how to communicate in a way that makes women happy & comfortable with you (hint -consent, respect, taking in their perspective), and how to feel good in the relationship yourself (spotting toxicity, self-care, negotiation instead of manipulation, etc).
Like it's really gotten to a point where legitimate misandrists are welcomed in feminist-leftist circles. Like....? I understand those feelings, however it should be recognized for what it is ~ a trauma response, not legitimate political theory that will change things positively. At this point it's wrapped itself up with so many mental gymnastics that people within these groups have begun to vilify other women for their choice in lifestyles or hobbies. It's ironic, and definitely harming how men feel in leftist spaces when larger content creators legitimize harmful and/or false rhetoric & without investigating the cause of the problem (beyond the generic "the patriarchy") or providing solutions on a systemic & individual scale. There's totally a place for complaining, don't get me wrong ~ but it doesn't do anything on its own, and definitely doesn't help men (or any other group in question) do better.
And people wonder why men don't respect or treat women equally. Why treat children(women) as same as men? Men aren't marrying and most are going elsewhere. Even when men leave to go overseas or don't want to work. Women and society still wants to complain.
When men drop out of society. Oh I can't wait to see all the hateful crap people will say.
Kyle, a man who actually, understands the difference between talking to your base, and talking to the audience you want to understand you. You can't talk to a hopeful audience the same way you do people who already understand you because it will be too in their face, too out of the box, and even confrontational, for a new audience to care to listen to.
We appreciate what you do Kyle.
This was an EXCELLENT video
AMEN: a good Leftie wants EVERYONE to be fulfilled, not just minority groups.
THANK YOU, KYLE for everything you are saying here.
🤡
Wow he's back in the studio and not laying in bed! 😂
Welcome back to work, my man!
Lying* in bed. "Laying" is like "laying bricks" or "getting laid in bed", it needs an object.
@@marcomoreno6748 incorrect. Kyle can never be found lying in bed because he only tells the truth! 😂
what kyle and vaush are talking about is one of the biggest reasons why i was conservative as a younger man, now that i’ve grown up i’ve realized my beliefs don’t align with conservative ideas but more with progressive ideas. i was just tired of feeling like the “bad guy” as a straight white man for just existing
And you still don’t fit into the more “woke” faction of the left. To them you are still a member of a group of people who are inherently bad. This bigotry of the “woke” left is absolutely killing the left in this country and is one of the right’s biggest sources of supporters.
I honestly think that a lot of people are in the same boat that you are. They just assume that they *must* be conservatives, because they don’t buy into the idiotic anti-white/anti-male nonsense, but like, if you go policy for policy, left-wing policies are a lot more beneficial to regular people. Unfortunately, a lottttt of people in the “online left” (not Kyle, but most of the other lefty RUclipsrs, honestly) are really bad at messaging, and are really bad at reaching out to the “other side.”
@@johnsykes3970 exactly what i realized when i started looking into the specific policies each party was promoting, i feel like conservatives just like to pretend to care about the working class but don’t support policies that would help them
Vaush sometimes irritates me with how sanctimonious he can be, but he's right on the money with those tweets. Couldn't have said it better!
💯
His video on it was based too.
Vaush is often based but cringe about it lol
Explain what is acceptable masculinity in 2023? Dominating women? As in telling women what they can or can't do with their bodies? That is conservative ideology. Vaush threw a bomb out there and then ran away like a bitch and didn't have the guts to explain what is acceptable in 2023 when it comes to how males treat each other and how they treat women and what it is that he thinks upsets males in 2023. The reason why he didn't explain himself fully is because he doesn't have a clue.
He can be cringe as hell but he is right about alot.
Kyle dude this segment was spot on. I'm an army vet and it really hurts to serve then later realize that most Americans see people of different political views as an enemy.
This attitude towards our neighbors makes us dysfunctional as a whole.
Back in the Army in out off time we would debate politics sometimes and because we saw the person who speaking to as our brother or sisters in arms we always walked away from those conversations having learned something new about a perspective of life we never saw before. Doesn't mean we didn't disagree or that we always agreed but the attitude came from a place of mutual respect. We need more of that.
There is no way Vaush could be any more correct on this. Absolutely phenominally put with precise wording, an easily understandbale conclusion and no unnecessary antagonism.
you are indeed some ok dude.
@@Pistolita221 Thank you. And you are indeed a John's hairy son. ;)
I was really expecting Vaush to be a guest on this clip given the title and thumbnail... Aside from that, great vid, food for thought
Cool stuff. I agree with you and Vaush here.
When I started my transition and really did more of a deep dive into feminism and the rules men and women play in perpetuating stereotypes, it led me to one idea.
"When does a boy become a monster, and what are you doing to help him not become that?"
It takes a village to raise a child. When the village that the child's parents have cultivated to raise the child in does not reflect values that will help them in life, then the parents need to reassess and do what they can to help that child have a productive life. To create an environment that support them and help them understand what they are going through and their own emotions. People who are disaffected and don't know where to go, often because someone down the road has made them feel ashamed of themselves without giving them a way to assess and understand what needs to be done to improve. This is what fascists, corporatists, and people who like the concept of disaffected men go after and maintain from a power imbalance in society. If we want to see this change it has to be from a ground up because governments benefit from disaffected men who will go to war for them.
Just my two cents having gone through the male puberty pipeline and a late in life female transition.
At the same time i think us men on the left need to show we are here, that we support equality for all including fellow men. You,caush, david pakman, etc,etc are good example of men who can think for themselves, lead others to a better conclusion. Thank you kyle, dont ever change ,my dude!
Thanks for sharing and discussing Kyle. It’s a really important topic.
subscribed dawg
I started to fall the right wing pipeline at higschool (Crowder), but thanks to TYT, David Pakman and other youtubers like you, I've been on a constant movement to the far left, now I'm part of the Vaush and Hasan comminities (Also, College has reinforced those ideas).
I'm a middle aged woman, I have three daughters, no sons, but I agree with this. I've been thinking about this since the Johnny Depp trial. Like, how would men come away from some of these conversations without the idea we hate them and they're just not welcome no matter what they do? That they're problems and victimization means nothing. Everyone has problems and it does no good to look at someone with a broken leg and say, 'hey, be happy you HAVE legs." I mean...true...but not very helpful.
You will be a great Vaush fan. Please try to get into his content his commentary is spot on and will give u insights on many different subjects such as trans rights issues and worker coops
Well its worse than you think vaush is also part of the problem as long as feminist insist on talking about the patriarchy theory and using terms like toxic masculinity, the problem will continue to grow and will never be solved. Feminists have to understand that empathy cannot be extended to men on a systematic level while continue to believe that we live in a patriarchy (system created by men to benefit men to the expend of women) as long as they continue to speak of men as the oppressive privileged class this will continue like this, a few months ago 130 feminist organizations (the largest and most influential on the planet) signed a letter in support of amber heard and thus telling the world that all the people who pay attention to the systematic problems that affect men already know that the feminism is a hate group that has not even tge slightest empathy for men and only says that men can be victims when it suits them and as I said vaush is part of the problem he did not pay attention to the trial of johnny and amber and of course he doesn't talk about the letter of support and many other things that the most powerful feminists have done and do around the world that hurt men, do you want to help men? start by abandoning patriarchy theory and then we'll talk but telling a feminist to stop believing that we live in a patriarchy is like telling a catholic to stop believing in jesus christ
@@MrSaxokeet Vaush is also a sex pest and harasser
Lots of left wing channels didn't cover the trial because it didn't fit their narrative. I'm a progressive woman and I watched it with no expectations. I found out that Amber Heard is a Liar. We got justice for Johnny. That's a big step. We need to think independently.
It cracks me up how I'm seeing leftists in these comments FINALLY starting to acknowledge the failures of their ideology in the treatment of men, but I'm not seeing anyone connect that final dot and realize that identity politics just by it's very nature IS the problem, it's the problem with all of these double standards and hypocritical positions. Remember that whole "judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin" thing, that pretty much all Americans used to agree on? Yea let's do that again. Obviously not everyone actually adheres to that standard, all the time, but we at least used to agree that it was a solid standard.
gatekeeping doesn't help a thing. Good on you for this.
HECK YEA. Kyle and Vaush, one of the best duos on the left. Get ‘em
It's a bit weird how we on the left will say "drug addicts made bad decisions but still deserve help" but now all of a sudden bad decisions or even the future possibility of bad decisions is a disqualifier simply because it's about politics...
It's not about politics. This is a cult.
@@waltergrace565 Not the point...
You should have vaush on and talk about how to better the lefts communication in this regard, think it would be super helpful
Its called compassion. Intellectual discourse that's presented in a compassionate manner is always going to be more powerful than writing someone off simply because you disagree with their opinions.
I’ve literally only met one person in my entire life that was “gatekeepy” about leftist ideologies and even they ended up growing out of it. It could just be that the area I live in isn’t like that but to me this mentality seems like a very online thing to me. Maybe it has something to do with how online spheres seem to have this need to preserve “safe spaces” while people in real life don’t really have that desire, idk.
I think it is undeniably true that people are more gatekeepy on the internet. I'm sure it happens in real life too, but it is a lot harder to be a jerk to someone's face for sure
@@hughquigley5337 100% people are so quick to be assholes online and would never step to that person in real life. Because there’s actual potential consequences to just being a dick in person. So that safe space of the internet gives people the illusion of power and confidence. That’s why we have all these arm chair leftists who will talk for an hour but won’t ever be in the frontlines of any type of actual leftist work, even if it’s to serve as a critic for the overall movement in order to introspect on it. Vaush is good at doing that type of criticism but always gets wokescold by these internet “leftist” influencers…
This is definitely an online thing. I've never had any somewhat informed leftist in person argue from essentialism when talking about changing people's opinions, especially young people. There's certainly always going to be some people beyond help but you have to at least try.
I've met more than one but you're right it's everyone online and they're so obviously mentally ill. You'll go "being mean to people is bad" and they'll reply "okay so we're just supposed to be nice to next Hitler when he comes, I guess?" I just reply "yes"
@gotmilk5899 Back in my day we did not have the internet and smart phones. But all of us knew who the "village idiot" was. Most villages had multiple idiots. For the most part, members of the community would attempt to engage the village idiots, and hopefully work with them to have a decent life.
But in 2023, every single village idiot is connected by the internet. Every single village idiot has an online presence. And every village idiot believes in their heart that their opinion is the only opinion.
With regards to the subject at hand, I see a ton of hand wringing from right wingers and neo-libs about their stereotypical vision of what "the left" is. What almost none of these people are realizing, nor acknowledging, is the fact that online trolls are NOT the representatives of "the left".
Just because someone virtue signals at you, or pretends to be aghast at something you posted, does NOT remotely mean that person is a leftist. It has been common for decades now on message boards - now social media - for crazed right wingers to create "lefty" accounts, just so they can stir the shit online.
So my best advice is ignore what most people tell you online, or in the fakeass world of social media. If you want to know what Progressives really believe, then listen to Kyle.
*YESTERDAY I SPOKE TO AN ANDREW TATE STAN** His dad died last year, he is an amazing musician, he has struggled with depression all his life and what did the left offer him...???
People who mocked him for not being able to define Marxism correctly or something. Like it or not [and I DONT] he is probably alive today cos Andrew Tate told him he was worth something.
This is OUR problem, as a society and as leftists.
*I'm an author on psychology and i am collecting Tate fans stories
Definitely poor guy :(
We as leftist need to stop bullying these young men they obviously need help
@@X0gossipgirl I just spoke to my sister today. Her 14 year old boy said the other week "men should be able to hit women" - IMAGINE what would have happened to him if he said that on a left forum - he would be torn to shreds. And on a right forum - they would have agreed and talked to him
My sister asked WHY do you feel that? "Cos girls hit boys all the time and we cant hit them back" Sister "Are they hitting you?" He showed her his shin where a girl in DrMartins had kicked him that hard she had taken the skin off and he had a massive welt.
Why have you not told anyone "cos if you do all the girls gang up on you and take the p!ss and its embarrassing"
Teenage boys are famously bad communicators
"men should be able to hit women" MEANT "Im being bullied by the girls at school"
IF he had gone on line for help - he would have got it from the right not the left...! I dont have a solution, Im working on it, it is something I care very deeply about.
@@piccalillipit9211
Very common but I wouldn't say it's an issue of bad communication from the boy.
It's an issue of assumption.
A GOOD communicators tries to understand what a person is saying and why they are saying it. A bad communicator just leads with their own assumptions.
I work in care and I see it ALL THE TIME.
Staff will assume they know best, or that they can guess the intent of a speaker based on their own previous experience.
It drives me mad bc a LOT of them are VERY poor communicators and their assumptions are faulty.
("this must be because of dementia" "this person said a single word and from that I assume they mean all this other stuff, so pretty much make my assumptions come true." The latter happened recently bc a resident wanted some belongings that were upstairs. The staff on assumed he wanted to go upstairs himself, so they kept telling him he wasn't allowed (accurate, he really isn't) You'll NEVER guess what happened though. And literally all he wanted was some dvds and a stuffed animal which would have taken me 30 seconds to fetch. ONE WORD caused an awful lot of grief bc people were SO ready to believe the worst)
I find a LOT of what feminists say offensive and incorrect. (and there's a LOT of nonsense feminists continue to push, all excused because of genuine women's issues that deserve advocacy)
When I speak to feminists I disagree with them and explain why.
When I speak to *conservatives* I try to explain what feminists (the good ones) are TRYING to say and they're a LOT less prone to extremely negative responses.
Things like "white privilege" "intersectionality" and "objectification" all have valid expressions and reasonable applications. But by and large they are misused and applied in the wrong circumstances... and people are SHOCKED that they're misunderstood? ("mansplaining" is a good example. Describes a very real, gendered problem where female experts aren't always taken as seriously as male experts. But it is OFTEN used to criticise men for explaining anything at all. And even IN context, it's not an automatic win. Just because somebody is an expert, or authored a paper on a subject, does NOT mean they are correct or above other interpretations. "Death of the author," and also "student surpasses master")
The solution to the problem YOU outline is to stop dismissing or excusing female violence. Women ARE violent and they often get away with it (we already criticise "boys will be boys" even when it is being used appropriately... but even SUGGESTING that women be held accountable for hitting men is seen as misogyny by many)
Teach little girls that if that hit a man, and he hits them back... then that's equality, baby. Don't want to get hit? Don't hit first. Simples. (and I got more than a few beatings from and at the behest of girls when I was a kid, it frustrates the fuck out of me when violence is boiled down to a "male problem")
Your story struck a chord with me. There's good gatekeeping but the left has more than its fair share of bad gatekeeping.
Beau said something to the effect of- it's a bitter pill but we need to win the culture war with good morality before we can hope to win the class war. Otherwise you just have a socialist GOP but only if you're in the right "club"
@@piccalillipit9211 thank you for sharing. I hope leftists here are taking notes
I could imagine this Tate guy in “I Spit On Your Grave II”. Yep, perfect casting!
He'd also be a great character in Idiocracy
Well said!
From my anecdotal experience, I 100% agree with Vaush and Kyle. I was lost when I was younger and I looked for answers online.
The online representation I saw of the left was the typical “Male privilege” and “White men have it easy” talking points. As a poor white suburban kid it infuriated me, since I didn’t feel any of that white privilege everyone was taking about
Then I started watching “SJW roast” type vids. That lead to me watching Steven Crowder, Ben Shapiro and eventually Jordan Peterson.
But now that my life is going much better and I have matured a lot, I got away from that. I don’t remember the exact turning point, but I actually think it started with your videos Kyle
Did you have any self-awareness about how privilege is often invisible to the privileged? "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression", and all that?
Being a white kid in the suburbs sounds pretty fucking privileged to me. I understand you were poor, but that's often subjective. Poorer than your neighbors maybe, but did your parent's own their own house?
I guess what I'm asking is if there was a way for you to self-reflect and gain a more objective view about your own privilege relative to minorities and such?
@@APaleDot I gained more perspective on that subject later in life once I got stuff figured out. But as much as white priviledge is a thing, class priviledge is also a big factor.
I was raised by a single mom working minimum wage since my dad is a drug addict. Eventually I got a step dad, but he got a serious work injury which made him disabled.
But yes, there’s definitely situations where I would have been treated worse if I was a minority. But class priviledge is also a big thing
Too many people like to use their political views as evidence of moral superiority. That’s the real turn off.
This goes for right AND left (and I’m very much on the left, but still).
It is takes like this that makes me realize how much I appreciate Kyle’s take on politics. Great commentary!
Really really good video Kyle
Kyle you are spot on with this, couldn't agree more! Greetings from Switzerland
I think one of the main issues with Andrew Tate and people like him are that he says so much good things that young men need to hear when it comes to personal development, mental health, gaining confidence and an ethic where you don’t run from pain and suffering, but then the next sentence he will mix in some things about how climate change isn’t real, and trump is awesome. Someone who is trying to find their identity will struggle to parse through what to believe and will often go “all or nothing” with certain charismatic individuals. I struggled with this when I was younger with lots of characters where I would agree with some things they said and therefore think they have it all figured out on everything (Sam Harris most notably). I think the left struggles with finding charismatic people to lead young people. It’s hard to look up to twitch streamers who clearly don’t do much else but stream, lack physical development and seem negative about everything. We need more people that have the aura of an Andrew Tate but without the right wing politics. Just my thoughts!
Great commentary.
I've always thought of Vaush as being someone who would be on the other side of this argument, so I'm pleasantly surprised to see him say something so decent and smart. Good for him.
He gets a real bad reputation online (some parts deserved, much not) and can be a little overly edgy with his jokes at times, but he’s almost always really good on issues like this and often tries to give good healthy life advice
@@HandsWithLegs I’ve never really gotten the whole “Vaush is edgy” thing… like, at all really. Anytime the topic of “edgy” comedy comes up, he’s always the one being a crybaby honestly. Like, just to use one example, he unironically thinks that South Park is “problematic” and has “ruined our discourse” (something along those lines). 😆 Like, dude, it’s a friggin’ cartoon. Sometimes stuff is just funny.
@@johnsykes3970 He is willing to attack anyone he disagrees with and is if we are real often quite aggressive about it. It may often be justified but it's also not that surprising that he would have gotten a bad reputation.
You also have to understand that to people who are only aesthetically left wing such as Flowers, Maupin or Luna Oi being called out by someone who on the face of it shares their aesthetics is not something they can allow.
People like Tate and Shapiro only exist because everyone else is so terrible. I remember after the Depp trial Shapiro was like one of the only big media figures telling the truth about it whereas the usual suspects of CNN, NYT, Wapo, etc. were clutching their pearls saying "this is so terrible for women everywhere"
Now if you're impressionable and you watched even a milisecond of the trial you're going to go to Shapiro because he reflected reality in that one instance. There's also about a million instances that reflect this, covington kids, Kyle Rittenhouse, Jussie Smollet. Mainstream media lied on all of them and that shit pushes people away.
Very well said
Agree COMPLETELY!
9:58 that's actually such a darn good point and as someone who watches Vegan Gains on a regular, I tend to really look down upon the redpill blackpill community because projection of insecurity in a toxic way projected at a group - It's repulsive. But I definitely am in favor of trying to convince people because the practical can have better results than the idea, making the practical the morally superior approach to go down, and well. I'm glad you made that point. I'll reflect on it.
I followed some of VG's content, but it seems like he doesn't want to bring everyone together because that would destroy his niche
If you watch Vegan Gains on the regular then you're a terrible person
@@bobbysmith9298 wow virtue signaling much? I like the guy's ideology, I believe that holocausting animals for our personal pleasure is wrong especially when we're doing it to the determent of our own health, but tell me. You're, I'd imagine since you watch Secular Talk, in favor of standing up for the rights of the disenfranchised. The poor, they have rights too - If it's health-wise superior not to do that and we can just prevent MASS MURDER, I'm just in favor of standing up for the rights of all of the disenfranchised. That doesn't mean animals should get to vote, clearly you wouldn't think someone severely mentally ill should get to, not that they might dilute the vote but in practice, the right to life doesn't mean equal rights.
What the guy's offensive? It's the internet, get over it. What's worse, offending people or mass murder.
If you're going to call me a bad person simply for watching someone you dislike, you don't seem that intelligent anyway.
@@_robinmc__-thesteve5380 The person who can't write coherently is questioning someone else's intelligence 🤣 just shut your mouth and don't talk.
@@bt9704 I do hate how he'll go after his own more than anything, but, we can't assume his intentions. He has high standards for what it means to be a good person, he's talked about it in a vlog once, how he found it outrageous that any parent would raise their child around unconditional love, because he thinks it inherently spoils them because they have to earn any respect or recognition they might get - The thing is, we can't assume his intentions or we'd be making the same mistake he is - When people who fall closer to his ideology say/do things he considers morally wrong, it will resonate with him on a more personal level and he'll feel like 'this person gets my principles, they should understand why this is immoral' and he doesn't open his mind further because he feels a sense of betrayal from it - He takes it more personally because he's true to his movement's values, and I'd imagine he feels that the ones amongst them making the movement unpure of its ideological meaning, say by adding in profit or stretching the position of veganism to suit one's personal interests - He believes that if people who lead in the movement aren't motivated by the values behind the movement- compassion and empathy - The movement is bound to crumble. It will be weak if it refuses to challenge and call out its own - Transparency. Thing is, he overexagerates this and overemphasizes the practical benefits in terms of effective activism of staying pure to your moral compass, and underemphasizes that of dividing the movement. Then again, he might also not see this at all from a practical lens, it's entirely possible he only sees it from a strictly moral standpoint.
Ok but like how was this a team up? other than kyle just reporting on the tweet thread?
He didn't show it but Kyle replied to Vaush's tweet agreeing with him
He's agreeing. It's not literally teaming up. Obviously.
Thanks for referencing that PBD podcast. I'm probably going to watch this whole thing. I really love to see the way professionals like you and Cenk and Ana not only get invited into hyper Right-Wing spaces, but always go in and scoop out a good chunk of their audience and take them with you. No other commentators or journalists are able to do that.
Good discourse, good take.
100% true I managed to get one of my friends out of this mindset he was falling for it. Alot of it has to do with them being lonely and when you're loney you tend to focus your attention on things that might be negative thus leading people down this rabbit hole.
Just curious. Can you point to any one thing that seemed to snap your friend out of manosphere hell?
@@darthbrandon2149 Destiny debating and deconstructing red pillers and their arguments.
The thoughts not "I need to oppress others to maintain my hierarchy" it's "my life sucks and I need to follow these people who are doing well so I can do well like them"
And for some it's "I need someone else to look down on to feel better about my own problems and insecurities."
@@collaide for some, but I feel that's not the case for most.
@@billdipperly6435 You're likely correct, most people aren't like that, and some who are it won't even admit it to themselves.
Have you ever seen some of those clips from female streamers etc? Where some men get really angry and scream things like "At least I'm not a woman". It's scary how some could see that as a "comeback" in a verbal spat...
@@collaide yeah some people are garbage people, I feel that stems from further alienation or bad mental health though.
@@billdipperly6435 Yep, I wish there were more help available and less social alienation 😕
good one!
Grew up conservative. Took a long break from politics in my early twenties. When I came back in 2016 I was shocked at the party I’d somewhat associated with. Being a moderate made me a communist in my families eyes. Crazy shit
Subreddits like r/MensLib and r/bropill are good for this kind of outreach. There's also TheBurgerKrieg's video "The Emotional Objectification of Men" and a few videos from Shark3ozero like "How Society Breaks Men and How to Fix It".
I find MensLib to be moralistic at times. I've also been on LeftWingMaleAdvocates but I'm skeptical about it, as I think there's too much feminist bashing
Best segment in a long time.
WELL SAID!
I'm so glad that people are finally starting to talk about this. I'm 31 now and I can say that this really started 8 years ago with the rise of Shapiro and other prominent right wing figures. I lost a lost of friends and watched a lot of them go down the right wing path. Their main point for doing so was that the Left wanted to constantly act like men had everything meanwhile my peers were thinking how is that possible when we're more broke than you. It's all economic and it's really that simple.
" Hope is a Verb! "
'A Call to Action!' --
Greta (Thurnberg) 👍
Your also forgetting the divorced population. Divorce in this country leads men to losers like Tate. I’ve seen it a with a bunch of men I know. The court system makes these men hate women.
I was a liberal when I was young, and became more of a social democrat because of Bernie's movement. After Bernie lost I started to think Libertarians had a point, my mentality was "if the government isn't going to do anything for us, maybe it is best if we limit their power". So neoliberals shoving down the left was almost responsible for me becoming a right winger. The only real reason I was pulled out of it was because in 2018 great progressives were elected and it restored my faith that we can make the government work for the people like it's supposed to.
You got me out of the pipeline Kyle when I was 19 or 20. People can always change their minds, especially at a young age. Now I'm a demsoc at the ripe age of 25.
The best argument for: "changing hearts and minds" is that it *saves lives.* Andrew Tate sells nothing but lies, and disaffects already ostracized kids. These are the children in danger of hurting themselves or others, so we should be promoting an accurate vision of reality; so they can actually have a chance at life!
TY, i view them as cult members. They're lost, and it's sort of their fault, but we should still help them.
The issue is that there's a lot of talk of 'toxic masculinity' which fair enough, it's a thing worth talking about, but the flip side is, there's no talk of positive masculinity, or what that would look like. We need positive male role models on the left, like you, and Vaush, and others, and we need to talk about what would be good for helping young men understand what would be helpful to them and those around them. They don't want to be bad people, no want thinks of themselves as bad, but if you're not helping them to become better, well you're basically part of the problem.
I agree. I think this goes to a deeper issue of two things: debunking but also reinforcing good examples of masculinity, and second is the audience willing to learn and accept different points of view. If an impressionable minds sees a video that debunks Tate, but then doesn't give example of good masculinity then the person is left confused and agitated. If a person just refuses growth and acceptance of new perspectives that mind make them think, then what's the point? Engagement is a two way street and it's hard to change minds when the mind is set in stone with their beliefs.
@@boycemallas8190 Masculinity isn't ever really the issue at hand, it's kind of a double standard to accept that rhetorical frame in the first place, I wish the left where ore critical about that instead of just accepting it.
Vaush vehemently defended the Gillette "toxic masculinity" prime time ad, and the rhetorical framing of feminist "masculinity studies" in general. I think he is a hypocrite for taking this pivot without criticizing his own stance.
@@oraz. You can change your mind without publicly disavowing every previous opinion you've changed on. This is petty at best.
Plus talking about toxic masculinity and examples of positive masculinity are different things.
@@bacaestrife3615 That's not petty at all. It's a major position of his that's in contradiction to what he's saying, unless you don't think masculinity rhetoric deserves any criticism. If he offerd some, you could assume ge changed his mind, but letting that go uncriticized and then pivoting makes it superficial and doesn't address the problem. I really think it is hypocritical. After all it's him and other breadtube figures that popularized masculinity rhetoric. If you don't that that stuff needs to be critized all all, that you be another case, but I just disagree.
Does anyone have the link to the interview he mentions?
"If you're just interested in your niche subgroup and don't do outreach, you're not doing politics." NAILED IT. These are complicated issues but we've got to be able to find a way to talk about difficult things like the intersection of privilege, class struggle, marginalization, racism, feminism, LGBTQ+ issues, all of these problems, without immediately resorting to assuming everyone is acting in bad faith, or assuming everyone should already know what you know. It's really hard and nobody seems to have the magic bullet on how to talk about these things without it devolving into an argument. It's people talking past each other and not being able to discern who you should talk to (like people who are on the fence about issues, or have only had access to right wing talking points) versus people who are not changeable (don't waste your time trying to change Ben Shapiro's mind). I get it that people get tired of trying to explain why their problems should matter to other people (eg black people explaining why policing is racist) but those conversations still need to happen. All while keeping it in the back of your mind that while we're fighting with each other, the powers that be are still running the world for their benefit.
I would also add that it is just not very left wing. If you are just out for your in group and want to get benefits for yourself thats not exactly progressive thought. You might do so within left wing aesthetics but if you are not attempting to remove *all* injustes for *all* groups are you really fundamentally different from a conservative?
I'm on the left side of politics but I can't stand some of the messaging. A year or so ago in the UK there was a number of unconnected but pretty horrific murders of women that started a big debate over how to ensure the safety of women and girls. This is a real problem but the discussion just stoked up people's real concerns to bizarre levels. There were even people arguing seriously about whether there should be male curfews at night to protect women- just think how unimaginable it would be to apply that to any other group in society.
Progress on barriers that women face can't be solved by women alone but they don't seem to recognise that they're alienating young men at a time when we should be coming together.
I frigging love Vaush. As sardonic and as dry as he is....he's such a progressive thinker. Much respect to the guy.
Im Muslim and if I had the opportunity I would 100% give him the death penalty for being a total coomer. And im not kidding.
Spitting facts
I find the mindset behind Le Madre de Los Gatos's comments is something I have encountered amongst some co-workers I've had born around the late 80's and later on (mid-pack Gen X here). There is a weird assumption that people never change, people never grow - that you are person you will ALWAYS be. So anyone they disagree with gets written off and otherized. There is also an unwillingness to engage with people who think differently. And there is no hope for a society when its citizens, especially so-called progressive ones, start behaving that way.
I really want to make my own video about my perspective on this problem. I think mine is unique because I somewhat ran through both the man-o-sphere online and the left at the same time. I've struggled with relationships for a long time, and largely still do, and what I can say on this matter in simplistic terms is that the main reason young men gravitate toward spaces like the audience of Andrew Tate is because they find people there who share their experiences. Men can talk about their feelings of inadequacy and being undesired and invisible to women in man-o-sphere spaces because those spaces are, in large part, built for that purpose, and of those areas of the internet, the content creators echo lonely young men's feelings and concerns. The reason that the left is at a disadvantage in this discourse is because...THE LEFT DOESN'T HAVE ANY SPACES THAT ARE SUPPORTIVE OF MEN WHERE THIS PROBLEM IS CONCERNED. Places don't exist in the online left for men to connect with the like-minded and the sympathetic with regards to sex and relationships.
This comment is spot on. There are no left leaning spaces for a man struggling with dating sex and relationships to turn to. I’ll go a step further and say that given the current hostile and intolerant mindset a lot of the left has, it is currently damn near impossible for a straight masculine male to attempt to fill this void on the left without getting cancelled and disavowed. What Kyle talked about in this video is pretty much proof of that.
I subbed. Make a video on it I would be interested. I’m largely in the same boat
If the left is gonna appeal to young men, it'll definitely be these two titans who do it. I've turned on more moderate/libertarian male friends to Kyle in the past and shifted their political compasses.
As a leftist all the recent debates makes me want to go back to basics, re-read old text books, and probably find ways to better communicate why the world needs us. As much as people find Christian preaching off putting, they also find the "moral superiority" of leftism just as off-putting despite being open to being on our side.
YES
Thank you so much for this take Kyle, this was direly needed. I was having this exact discussion with the people in my circle and making similar arguments about Andrew Tate and how to engage with his fans and with his character but sadly most organized, visible leftist groups in my town (mid sized German university town called Göttingen) fall in the echo chamber category where even their active organized attempts at leaving their bubble largely fulfills only a performative function to convince themselves their political mode is anything other than masturbation. They are quick to demonize and create antagonists because they need a constructed 'other' to preserve their group integrity, as they don't actually have real enemies because they're not a threat to anyone - because at their core, they're no more than an expression of adolescent petite bourgeoise narcissism. That's what fills the modern leftist niche in developed western countries, sadly. They're also the same demographic you find on leftist and liberal twitter circles.
Yup, same types that will scream about institutional racism on twitter all day will never put their cart up at the grocery store and never clean their table at a resteraunt, while treating every "unskilled" labour worker like trash because they could be white or cis
Kyle, thank you so much. As a feminist, I'm always trying to be cognizant of men's issues and non-cis-women's issues, and honestly what is frustrating about people like Tate is that they don't seem to understand that other than very superficial things like height distribution and some physical characteristics and very slight trends towards certain preferences (which are not black or white by any means), men and women are 99% the same, in fact I'd say I'm more like some men than I am some women, easily. The gender chasm that misogynists (and misandrists, to be fair) describe is just not reflective of objective reality but has been over-reinforced by society. My point being that, oftentimes by making it "us vs them" among ordinary people, rather than dismantling harmful narratives, we're just prolonging our own suffering, and so I'm grateful for people like yourself (and even Vaush, though I don't care for him so much), who take the time to dismantle these false narratives that people have been fed, and for making people question their paradigms (myself included, in fact). I know you're not a religious man but you're doing the Lord's work, so to speak.
As a feminist you are supporting the entire framing of men's issues being an issue of masculinity which is it's self a narrow trope coming from institutional feminist. It's both a rhetorical double standard and a kind of fake-benevolent typecasting. How feminists, including Vaush, can simple pivot to saying they are empathetic toward men and not criticize their own movement (which is now clinical policy toward men), I don't understand. I think it's pretty self indulgant and hypocritical
A supposed 'feminist' praising "the Lord"... *gag*
Exactly right!!!