I agree, but let’s not forget times are getting faster again because there is a new generation having growing up with Garmin Devices, heartrate zones and better training methodology.
The best testing can't catch the best dopers. It's not for a lack of effort. It's easier to take things that bypass tests than test for substances there aren't tests for yet
Once a cyclist gets past 15kmh the biggest impediment to performance is wind resistance. The amount of technology change over the past 5 years to combat that is insane. Guys who were racing 10 years ago - and now - will tell you that the power output hasn’t changed that much - and probably is on par with what the likes of Stadler and Leito were putting out 20 years ago. Similarly carbon plated shoes are worth 5 minutes for a typical pro Ironman athlete. Take out the technology gains and there is nothing more remarkable than what Mark and Dave did back in 1989. Only there is a dozen - or more - guys now as capable of doing that on their day. 300W NP rides and 2:50 marathons in carbon plated shoes isn’t that special when looked at in that light. Certainly not a ‘canary in the coal mine’ evidence of wide spread doping.
@andrewmetcalfe9898 diminishing returns as people get better. But guys are racing a lot these days and racing fast. That's a canary in the coal mine. Bikes are tricky to account for without knowing everyone's exact CDA. But running is easier to guage and they're running very fast and very fast runners aren't rare anymore. *I'm confident Dave and Mark could keep up with the top guys today with modern equipment, even without modern training methods. The difference is that there would maybe be 10 guys that could beat them if they had an outstanding day and Dave and Mark had an average day. They were the only people capable of competing with one another back then because they were superior athletes and there was no depth in the sport.
@ A little bit of inside info. Back in early 2004 Norman Stadler came to Australia for a 2 month training block with Mark Newton - a mate of mine and Peter Robertson’s coach (3 time ITU WC and dual Olympian). Norman was sponsored by Nestle (via their power bar brand) and Mark was working with Nestle athletes at the time including Norman. Before coming to Australia Norman was invited to attend the T-Mobile pro tour team training camp in Majorca. He did a lot of testing with both T-mobile on camp and with mark in Australia. mark was also privy to Norman’s numbers for 2003 - when he finished 4th in Hawaii with the fast bike split. Norman went on to win Hawaii that year and in 2006. His average power for his 4.17 record bike split in 2006 would have been on par with what Laidlow did last weekend for his 3:57 record. So there is that. You are 100% spot on about depth in the sport. There are obvious reasons for that. ‘Back in the day’ Mark and Dave effectively invented the standard for the professional sport. They did so largely by combining their collegiate level swim back ground (so already they were at a high level in that discipline) with Maffete philosophy run training based on heart rate (so still the gold standard all these years later). They did not have access to power metres - something that Mark has often referenced as the biggest technological change as a training aid since he has retired. This explains why both their swim standards and run splits still hold up as good benchmarks 35 years later. But not their bike splits. These days there are probably 100 junior triathletes world wide coming into World Triathlon elite racing every year. 10 years later something like 10 or so per year survive that system and graduate into middle distance and long course triathlon and each of these athletes are as genetically gifted as mark and Dave were back in the day. In addition to those World Triathlon alumni there are also one or two athletes with a limited or non existent World Triathlon background who are as gifted as Mark and dave who do straight into long course racing (ie. the Sanders, Longs, Ditlevs and Laidlows of the sport). Each of those guys can be expected to race long course for between 5-10 years at the highest levels. That’s like having 100 Mark and Daves on the long course circuit right there. Especially with TWO long course series carrying around $5 million in total prize money each, bonus pools and contract fees and about 100 other 2nd and third tier pro races as well.
Listen to Joe skippers podcast where he explains Rodriguez dropped out injured just before a race only to lodge mammoth training sessions the next day. Sure does look like he knew he would fail a pi$$ test
Biggest group of dopers in the sport is the AG’ers. Big egos with cash to burn. And ZERO testing. Doesn’t suit Ironman commercial model To test AG Athletes because they’ll chase them all away.
Realizing some advances in shoe and bike technology, what else could possibly explain the unbelievable increases in speed at the Ironman distance in the last several years? Are you aware of any new, previously unknown workouts that are being done now that weren’t done before? Is there a special protein powder or other nutritional supplement that explains these improvements? 8:02:38 was the women’s winning time at Challenge Roth in 2024 with 12 other women under 9 hours. For the men it was 7:23. In Hawaii, it was 7:35 here in 2024 under good conditions. Women’s record is a very fast 8:24. Also, now the women’s marathon record is 2:09, run in Chicago, with a 4 minute PR over her previous best. Are bicycles that much more aerodynamic and efficient? Can the newer “super shoes” account for such running speed increases? Mark Allen, Dave Scott, Peter Reid, Craig Alexander, Paula Newby-Fraser, Lori Bowden, Marinda Carfrae, Michellie Jones, Natascha Badmann, etc., etc. are looking like slackers compared to today’s incredible triathletes. It couldn’t be possible that they are doing something illegal could it? Maybe today’s coaches are just better at getting the most out of their athletes.
I think advancements in setup optimization has really contributed to some of the mind numbing bike splits we’ve been seeing. The top pros and even AGers who can afford it are going so much faster for the same power output because they’ve been able to drastically reduce their CDA. Looking at someone like Leon Chevalier’s position/ setup and comparing it to the Uber bikers of the mid 2010s, it’s ridiculous to see how much more dialed in Leon is compared to even the most innovative guys in the field back then. Also since the average speed has increased so drastically in recent times, the draft effect from being just 12 meters back is relatively more than it would be if they were moving at slower speeds. I also think fueling plays a huge role in it. I heard that some pros were consuming up to 180g of CH per hour, theoretically allowing them to maintain a higher percentage of their thresholds for longer periods of time. Advancements in hydrogel technology has made this easier on their GI system (compared to athletes who came before. I heard the great Jan Frodeno mention that in his first Kona, he only had 2 gels on the run!)
I would add to the previous comment that if you compare positive tested athletes they do look like they are on a completly other level. So either they are doing a really bad job at doping which seems unlikely. Or they are taking much smaller doses or they are just clean. As a mechanical engineer I don't find any improvements in performances unexplainable. Could they be doping? Absolutely, do I think so? No I don't assume it.
I just assume all endurance athlete pros are doing peds. and I also assume the ones that aren't, which is probably a small percentage, are likely doing things that will be considered peds in the coming years. similar to the blood doping you mention being used pre-ban. but I'm also not ignorant to the fact that these top pro athletes are still absolute freaks of nature and if I, or any normal person, did the same stuff they did, it wouldn't magically make us win Kona and they still work unbelievably hard
no, i've been assured that it's the europeans who dope. when americans win without testing, it's because they ate their wheaties and recited the pledge of allegiance.
Contradictory for me to say be “sceptical” if seen something unbelievable and still celebrate it. I mean, what suppost to define an Athlete, are the “moral codes,” no?? Then why do we hear many people saying Larms A was my role model? "He Was" being an pro athlete first is a privilege and second more than just doing amazing times etc... if "cheating.” What’s the whole point of being one? We forget that we, as AG, seen the pros, we get inspire by them to be equal or better than them, but if they cheat, I mean clearly they are only selling us a lie. I wanna hear different opinions, guys 👍🏻🙏🏻
It's not even fun racing my local age groupers who, with one guy at age 41, beating the pros over the Olympic distance. This was his third year and something "magical" happened early this spring 🤔.
I totally hear you but for myself for example I’m 38 years old just started training with a proper training regiment. This season about three months out before my major race in Sag Harbor Olympic distance. I have never trained for triathlon Before this year. I got 21st to my age group 35 to 39 and I suck at running. I’m not at all. If I was just a little bit better at running, I would beat a lot of the pros too, and I was sure amateur. It’s because I’m an excellent swimmer and destroy the field with swimming and it really good Biker. What I’m saying is just because someone years old and 20 year-old pros that doesn’t automatically mean something. Look at their individual times and see where they’re really really good at. They may be there getting pushed past the field so much and that one part. But I do understand what you’re saying, saying as well. I’m just looking ahead because at 39 I plan to be easily top 10 next year and maybe even top five. And that would mean I would be beating some really really good athletes. I’m just an average Joe that does not take any supplements other than protein shakes and some green grass shit in the morning.
Question. What is the value proposition of diamond bikes, and why should someone buy one over a mainstream competitor such as Trek, Cervelo, or Canyon?
-People have different physiology - length of each limb, trunk, etc. For some, Dimond may be the best fit -They're made for triathlon specifically, unlike the bikes of brands that sell mostly to non-triathlon cyclists who need UCI-legal frames (not affiliated with Dimond bikes).
It actually doesn’t seem like you listed very many people at all that have been Caught doping in this sport. How many was that that you named so it doesn’t seem that prevalent even though a lot of age groupers complain about other age groupers speed.
The Olympics and Ironman Are Full of Cheaters and Dopers....but Soccer is perfectly clean. Some hard fact for you: Triathlon is the cleanest sport of all compared to doping effectiveness and number of athletes. Go drop your hate elsewhere
@leslie7922 the sport has lost popularity as athletes have gotten faster. We had a long window of very rare records with very old performances leading the pack. The sport was even more popular then. *Yes, they were still doping, they just weren't as good as Mark Allen and Dave Scott
But he's done under 2:40 his entire career, especially in the last 2-3 years. It was 2:37, not 2:32 like he did in Israel. Need a lot more evidence, especially for a Tri-athlete who's best sport far and away the run. Maybe it was the Swim. Not that is a little anomalous.
I agree, but let’s not forget times are getting faster again because there is a new generation having growing up with Garmin Devices, heartrate zones and better training methodology.
Over half the field is on the hot sauce. 16 guys went sub 8 at Kona! Testing is a joke and you'd be dumb not to take EPO.
The best testing can't catch the best dopers. It's not for a lack of effort. It's easier to take things that bypass tests than test for substances there aren't tests for yet
@@veganpottertheveganthis
Once a cyclist gets past 15kmh the biggest impediment to performance is wind resistance. The amount of technology change over the past 5 years to combat that is insane. Guys who were racing 10 years ago - and now - will tell you that the power output hasn’t changed that much - and probably is on par with what the likes of Stadler and Leito were putting out 20 years ago. Similarly carbon plated shoes are worth 5 minutes for a typical pro Ironman athlete. Take out the technology gains and there is nothing more remarkable than what Mark and Dave did back in 1989. Only there is a dozen - or more - guys now as capable of doing that on their day. 300W NP rides and 2:50 marathons in carbon plated shoes isn’t that special when looked at in that light. Certainly not a ‘canary in the coal mine’ evidence of wide spread doping.
@andrewmetcalfe9898 diminishing returns as people get better. But guys are racing a lot these days and racing fast. That's a canary in the coal mine. Bikes are tricky to account for without knowing everyone's exact CDA. But running is easier to guage and they're running very fast and very fast runners aren't rare anymore. *I'm confident Dave and Mark could keep up with the top guys today with modern equipment, even without modern training methods. The difference is that there would maybe be 10 guys that could beat them if they had an outstanding day and Dave and Mark had an average day. They were the only people capable of competing with one another back then because they were superior athletes and there was no depth in the sport.
@ A little bit of inside info. Back in early 2004 Norman Stadler came to Australia for a 2 month training block with Mark Newton - a mate of mine and Peter Robertson’s coach (3 time ITU WC and dual Olympian). Norman was sponsored by Nestle (via their power bar brand) and Mark was working with Nestle athletes at the time including Norman. Before coming to Australia Norman was invited to attend the T-Mobile pro tour team training camp in Majorca. He did a lot of testing with both T-mobile on camp and with mark in Australia. mark was also privy to Norman’s numbers for 2003 - when he finished 4th in Hawaii with the fast bike split. Norman went on to win Hawaii that year and in 2006. His average power for his 4.17 record bike split in 2006 would have been on par with what Laidlow did last weekend for his 3:57 record. So there is that.
You are 100% spot on about depth in the sport. There are obvious reasons for that. ‘Back in the day’ Mark and Dave effectively invented the standard for the professional sport. They did so largely by combining their collegiate level swim back ground (so already they were at a high level in that discipline) with Maffete philosophy run training based on heart rate (so still the gold standard all these years later). They did not have access to power metres - something that Mark has often referenced as the biggest technological change as a training aid since he has retired. This explains why both their swim standards and run splits still hold up as good benchmarks 35 years later. But not their bike splits.
These days there are probably 100 junior triathletes world wide coming into World Triathlon elite racing every year. 10 years later something like 10 or so per year survive that system and graduate into middle distance and long course triathlon and each of these athletes are as genetically gifted as mark and Dave were back in the day. In addition to those World Triathlon alumni there are also one or two athletes with a limited or non existent World Triathlon background who are as gifted as Mark and dave who do straight into long course racing (ie. the Sanders, Longs, Ditlevs and Laidlows of the sport). Each of those guys can be expected to race long course for between 5-10 years at the highest levels. That’s like having 100 Mark and Daves on the long course circuit right there. Especially with TWO long course series carrying around $5 million in total prize money each, bonus pools and contract fees and about 100 other 2nd and third tier pro races as well.
Listen to Joe skippers podcast where he explains Rodriguez dropped out injured just before a race only to lodge mammoth training sessions the next day. Sure does look like he knew he would fail a pi$$ test
This is giving 8th grade presentation. I’m here for it
Sub 9 hrs In 50-54 AG in Kona this year?! Great weather, but c’mon man.
@keithschumann4859 never had a tailwind for +8hrs of an out and back? 😅
Biggest group of dopers in the sport is the AG’ers. Big egos with cash to burn. And ZERO testing. Doesn’t suit Ironman commercial model
To test AG Athletes because they’ll chase them all away.
Realizing some advances in shoe and bike technology, what else could possibly explain the unbelievable increases in speed at the Ironman distance in the last several years? Are you aware of any new, previously unknown workouts that are being done now that weren’t done before? Is there a special protein powder or other nutritional supplement that explains these improvements? 8:02:38 was the women’s winning time at Challenge Roth in 2024 with 12 other women under 9 hours. For the men it was 7:23. In Hawaii, it was 7:35 here in 2024 under good conditions. Women’s record is a very fast 8:24. Also, now the women’s marathon record is 2:09, run in Chicago, with a 4 minute PR over her previous best. Are bicycles that much more aerodynamic and efficient? Can the newer “super shoes” account for such running speed increases? Mark Allen, Dave Scott, Peter Reid, Craig Alexander, Paula Newby-Fraser, Lori Bowden, Marinda Carfrae, Michellie Jones, Natascha Badmann, etc., etc. are looking like slackers compared to today’s incredible triathletes. It couldn’t be possible that they are doing something illegal could it? Maybe today’s coaches are just better at getting the most out of their athletes.
I think advancements in setup optimization has really contributed to some of the mind numbing bike splits we’ve been seeing. The top pros and even AGers who can afford it are going so much faster for the same power output because they’ve been able to drastically reduce their CDA. Looking at someone like Leon Chevalier’s position/ setup and comparing it to the Uber bikers of the mid 2010s, it’s ridiculous to see how much more dialed in Leon is compared to even the most innovative guys in the field back then. Also since the average speed has increased so drastically in recent times, the draft effect from being just 12 meters back is relatively more than it would be if they were moving at slower speeds. I also think fueling plays a huge role in it. I heard that some pros were consuming up to 180g of CH per hour, theoretically allowing them to maintain a higher percentage of their thresholds for longer periods of time. Advancements in hydrogel technology has made this easier on their GI system (compared to athletes who came before. I heard the great Jan Frodeno mention that in his first Kona, he only had 2 gels on the run!)
I would add to the previous comment that if you compare positive tested athletes they do look like they are on a completly other level. So either they are doing a really bad job at doping which seems unlikely. Or they are taking much smaller doses or they are just clean. As a mechanical engineer I don't find any improvements in performances unexplainable. Could they be doping? Absolutely, do I think so? No I don't assume it.
Bikes and shoes are definitely better but drugs are too
@buffdraven8824 it's not always about dose. There are drugs that simply won't show up on tests.
I just assume all endurance athlete pros are doing peds. and I also assume the ones that aren't, which is probably a small percentage, are likely doing things that will be considered peds in the coming years. similar to the blood doping you mention being used pre-ban. but I'm also not ignorant to the fact that these top pro athletes are still absolute freaks of nature and if I, or any normal person, did the same stuff they did, it wouldn't magically make us win Kona and they still work unbelievably hard
We know many have doped. But I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
Steve Larsen's Kona bike time in 2002, in the really bad windy conditions. A little suspicious.
no, i've been assured that it's the europeans who dope. when americans win without testing, it's because they ate their wheaties and recited the pledge of allegiance.
Contradictory for me to say be “sceptical” if seen something unbelievable and still celebrate it. I mean, what suppost to define an Athlete, are the “moral codes,” no?? Then why do we hear many people saying Larms A was my role model? "He Was" being an pro athlete first is a privilege and second more than just doing amazing times etc... if "cheating.” What’s the whole point of being one? We forget that we, as AG, seen the pros, we get inspire by them to be equal or better than them, but if they cheat, I mean clearly they are only selling us a lie. I wanna hear different opinions, guys 👍🏻🙏🏻
It's not even fun racing my local age groupers who, with one guy at age 41, beating the pros over the Olympic distance. This was his third year and something "magical" happened early this spring 🤔.
I totally hear you but for myself for example I’m 38 years old just started training with a proper training regiment. This season about three months out before my major race in Sag Harbor Olympic distance. I have never trained for triathlon Before this year. I got 21st to my age group 35 to 39 and I suck at running. I’m not at all. If I was just a little bit better at running, I would beat a lot of the pros too, and I was sure amateur. It’s because I’m an excellent swimmer and destroy the field with swimming and it really good Biker. What I’m saying is just because someone years old and 20 year-old pros that doesn’t automatically mean something. Look at their individual times and see where they’re really really good at. They may be there getting pushed past the field so much and that one part. But I do understand what you’re saying, saying as well. I’m just looking ahead because at 39 I plan to be easily top 10 next year and maybe even top five. And that would mean I would be beating some really really good athletes. I’m just an average Joe that does not take any supplements other than protein shakes and some green grass shit in the morning.
Bike aero positioning and frame could account for 15 to 20 minutes. Super shoes maybe 7 minutes.
Great report TJ , Keep up the good work, ALEC Rukosuev
Question. What is the value proposition of diamond bikes, and why should someone buy one over a mainstream competitor such as Trek, Cervelo, or Canyon?
-People have different physiology - length of each limb, trunk, etc. For some, Dimond may be the best fit
-They're made for triathlon specifically, unlike the bikes of brands that sell mostly to non-triathlon cyclists who need UCI-legal frames
(not affiliated with Dimond bikes).
The lack of a seat post makes the bike very aero.
What percent have TUEs?
Sadly I feel like it’s part of the sport and sport in general. Coming from baseball and football there is a pretty high amount of accepted drug use
It actually doesn’t seem like you listed very many people at all that have been Caught doping in this sport. How many was that that you named so it doesn’t seem that prevalent even though a lot of age groupers complain about other age groupers speed.
Long time no see!!
The Olympics and Ironman Are Full of Cheaters and Dopers....but Soccer is perfectly clean. Some hard fact for you: Triathlon is the cleanest sport of all compared to doping effectiveness and number of athletes. Go drop your hate elsewhere
Do you guys have youth size bikes??
Picture you show of the first doper in 68 is David Hemery.....don't think he'll be very happy with you!😂
If they didn't take drugs nobody would watch the sport and no records would be broken
@leslie7922 the sport has lost popularity as athletes have gotten faster. We had a long window of very rare records with very old performances leading the pack. The sport was even more popular then. *Yes, they were still doping, they just weren't as good as Mark Allen and Dave Scott
Very easy for these guys to micro dose.
It’s one of a few keys to successful doping
Patrick Lange just crushed everyone and didn't even look tired...
Hussein Bolt didn't look tired too. Does Messi look tired after a 90min soccer game?
@@bluesparrow-hx5qf those aren't the good examples you think they are
@@TheTrailRabbit and you will tell me why, because otherwise your argument is exactly what?
Triathletes dope!!! Especially age groupers and a bunch of pros.
Nice bike btw
Those Ironman world champions wouldn’t need to dope if they were just riding that Diamond bike!
They are doping. I’m pro-doping.
Patrick Lange is 100% blood doping I’m convinced. Bro is 38 and ran like a 2:35 off the bike in the booming heat
100 percent
Same with Jan Frodeno! Only Lionel Sanders is so naive to believe,that he was racing clean! All the Germans are on the same program !
Same with Jan Frodeno! Only Lionel Sanders believes,that he was racing clean! All Germans are on same program!
But he's done under 2:40 his entire career, especially in the last 2-3 years. It was 2:37, not 2:32 like he did in Israel. Need a lot more evidence, especially for a Tri-athlete who's best sport far and away the run. Maybe it was the Swim. Not that is a little anomalous.
@@Spartan1293-w3u or maybe he was blood doping even back in 2016 when he got on the podium at Kona for the first time
Pretty simple way to even the playing field. Make it all legal.