Super Clean 3d Printer Support Removal (Combining Filaments)
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- Опубликовано: 7 апр 2023
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Many years ago someone told me they were combing PLA and PETG on their dual extrusion 3d printer and having really good success with it. Since then I have wanted to try it out but either forgot or didnt have a machine capable. Today we will take a look at how well this does or doesnt work.
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Try using the support for just the 1 interface layer so the head doesn't have to change too often. I create three parts in Simplify3d, the part, the support with the same material, and the interface layer, to minimize how much of the print would need changing the print head. I have the support part as an independent part so I can use 1 wall with no bottom and a low infill.
That's the way to do it and save a bunch of time.
Won’t the PETG not stick to the PLA though? So the interface layer won’t actually be attached to the support or to the part. Couldn’t this cause issues with the interface layer moving or slipping?
@@conorstewart2214 yes go read the other reply in the other top comment. PLA and PETG don't stick well together.
Came here to write the same. It’s no secret and also no idex is needed. Even BambuLab sells tuned material for this layer.
It is not possible because both materials do not stick to one another.
However there is a experimental feature in Cura to bond 2 material together by interlacing them layer by later. A combination of that with the support infill and interface could make that possible.
Although, PLA and PETG goes for the same price range. It does not matter one which you waste price wise. That would only be the case of using “support”, or soluble filament that are very expensive.
Support materials is a scam in case of PLA and PETG.
As long as the supports touches the build plate, there is no need for PVA and the PLA/PETG combo is the best option.
One trick that can save you a lot of time is to use the support material only in the top interface.
At least in Bambu Studio laminating software, I don't know about the other laminating programs. Let me explain.
You print a part in PLA and you are going to use PETG as support material. In the laminating program you just activate the PETG support material in the top interface. This causes PLA to be used as support material except for the part that touches the part.
This avoids having to make unnecessary filament changes. It only makes such a change when it reaches the top support interface.
Greetings to all.
Yes this works for the Bamboo Filament but not PLA+PETG, you can't really print one ontop of another. I tested this my self, by attempting to print a cube that was floating over the bed. Since it did not have a single connection to the print bed, if failed after 2 layers.
@@TeaObvious but if the part isn’t floating and has some anchor to the build plate, wouldn’t a couple of layers of PETG as interface material make the removal of supports easier and increase the finish quality of overhangs?
I printed with PETG as only an i terfave layer and everything was fine. I just set the max volumetric flow of PETG to 8 mm3 so it prints slower.
Just don't forget to set the purge volume to at least 700m3.
@@hologos_ why does the purge volume have to be so high? There is a purge tower already so won’t that take care of the transition?
@@realgoose because if you don't purge enough when switching PLA to PETG or vice versa, the filament can become too britle and you can get layer separations. That's why it's important to purge enough to clean the inside of nozzle. To reduce too much waste, set the PETG only as interface layer (I use 2 to be safe) for PLA prints and PLA for PETG prints.
I'm experimenting with printing a dedicated support block in PLA that can be inserted directly under overhangs at a certain layer height while printing PETG. It's a solution for single extruder printers owned by most people.
This is really cool! Multi colored prints are awesome but showing how an idex can be used like this is awesome, my supports never come out this nice
I discovered this by mistake and now it's my go-to. The Bambulab AMS makes life easy
I started doing this and I’m blown how clean my parts turn out!
Mate, this is a game changer for those who use ultimakers and struggle to keep their PVA supports dry. I’m going to try this out straight away!
THIS opens up a new world to me!!!
This is the first real reason to wanting a dual material 3D printer!!!
Absolutely awesome!
All my new printers will have dual material ability
That is very cool. Being able to use a less expensive filament (like a basic or recycled) PLA or PETG for supports would be much less expensive than specialty filaments. I also like the idea of using an idex machine to stitch together different filaments to make something combined, such as something stiff with a flexible joint. 😃
This is a game changer. Well done!
We have one IDEX printer in our farm and that never occurred to me. I will try it out. Thank you, as always.
Really interesting concept!!!!!💯
Combination of PLA with ABS supports and vice-versa would be amazing to see next.
Fantastic episode Daniel. Always enjoy watching or better put learning.
This is really cool, the results were absolutely amazing!
For simple parts i draw the supports myself then print it in petg then i print the main part whith supports disabled or block on the specific surface, then pause it on the right layerhight,put the support on the bed, let it warm up for a minute and resume the print! this works great for me and i had simlar results like u! u can even reuse the support because it pops off so easy! its very usefull when u have to print a part many times and u save filament when u reuse the support :)
if you want to separate support easily but don't have IDEX printer, you can try pausing the printer during the print and add a layer of glue stick right at the interfacing layer. I do this by adding a post processing g-code in CURA to stop and beep when the support roof is printed. However this is only suitable for design with simple geometry, but still useful in a pinch.
I've done this! I doing a pretty weird print in TPU that needed supports. I designed supports in PLA first and then had the print pause and placed it in place when it was time. Worked really well, even though I only have a single print head! The PLA supported the TPU without becoming fused.
This is brilliant. Makes me really excited for my PrusaXL with multiple toolheads.
Was JUST researching this earlier. Thanks for this!
Wow, Great idea and test.
Thanks for sharing your expirence with all of us 👍 😀
Disolable supports are most useful for putting supports on places where it is hard to get at (e.g..figurines) or places that need to be hollow for weight or storage and won't print without internal supports.
I’ve been doing this for a while now, interesting to see it’s being covered though. I’ve also been using nylon (technically cf nylon, I don’t have regular nylon) as an interface layer for polycarbonate and abs and vice versa. In theory, PP should work as a support for almost anything, but it might be too slippery. I have a half completed spreadsheet with a bunch of materials tested together, and I did want to try doing stuff with TPU but i don’t have a dual extrusion printer unfortunately.
how's your sheet been going?
TPU sticks to everything... everything LOL sheet complete!@@heartminer5487
Checking in once again, how’s the spreadsheet going?
Definitely cool to know. However, I just discovered 'Enable Support Roof' and it completely changed my one filament machine overhang game. Thanks!
A couple of months ago I tested this on the ultimaker S5 and had great results, I also tested CPE+ with the pla as a support and it worked great too, it just deformed a little because the cpe+ prints at 280 degrees and the bed was at 100 degrees.
I already tested TPU with PLA and it worked too, it stuck well but it was better than the support made with TPU, another advantage is by using PLA in the support, it was possible to print faster even.
Just tried this on my X1C, it actually works better than the Bambu support filament, I am using 3 layers, it is easier to break off in one piece, this is a great idea, thanks.
I have played around with this on my Bambu Labs X1C and it does work well with their AMS.
Been using this for a couple years now works great.
That's really interesting! I print a lot of miniatures and so do a lot of support removal (primarily with tree supports). I'm wondering if the interface between the two materials is strong enough to support something like a character's elbow where you might only have a small amount of contact point but then need to build a fair amount of the model off of there.
Works like a charm. PETG also does do work well with ABS, ASA and Nylon...... PC is a different animal and if you crank up PETG with 250C you better be printing fast and a bigger nozzle but it does do work. Another thing we did do is also do is if you do PETG parts and you need like a stand support like what Daniel just showed you can use PVA as a TOP layer on your support and the parts come out perfect.
Interesting video Daniel. Keep up the awesome content!
Even though i don't have a printer that can do this (Prusa Mini+), i love seeing whats possible! Great channel, leaving a comment to feed the algorithm monster
You're about the fifth RUclipsr I've seen this from. And I hear it works with ASA+PETG too. This is exactly what I want to try on my Bambu Lab P1S. I occasionally print difficult technical parts and this would be a life changer. 👍
And by the way, a much better practice is to make only the interface layers out of a different material. At least from what I've heard - I'm just about to experiment with this method myself. 😎
My snaomaker dual extrusion module finally arrived. Time to try this out
blown away, super useful, thanks
thank you very much for this great videos and work
I discovered this by accident years ago when I got my pallette 2. I was out of black pla for the base of a globe. Grabbed the petg instead. Popped right off, and the base had zero defects because it wasn't a support print, so it just had top layers printed normally.
Nice. I have a dual head printer I was given by a friend which isnt working so I am going to get that working and test it out. Really interested in trying it out with character models now I have seen this.
Been doing PETG to PEtg supports using tree in bambu labs and standard in ender 3 s1 pro ender set at 0.35 and 0.4 for xy bambu has presets which work great, keen to now try PETG with pla supports to get clean surfaces on both units Great video
Also works great with TPU (even better than PETG for me). Then you also have TPU always ready to go and can print either rigid or flex materials
thanks ModBot!
Oh yeah it's amazing how well it works once tuned. Anyone with an idex should give it a go
Note you really need a multi extruder machine to make this work efficiently. Any single nozzle multi-material switching system (Prusa MMU, Bambu AMS, Palette, etc.) will require an INSANE amount of purge after every switch, because even a tiny bit of mixing of incompatible plastics will make a very brittle blend with poor layer adhesion.
You only need to switch it twice at every layer interface-not every layer in the model. Also, just adjust the purge to be double the value so you get all the old filament out
Wow. Never thought of this. Definitely gonna try but it got me thinking. Surely the temperature and retraction differences between the materials must play a role in this. What if we further tune those results with higher and lower support temp? Minimal temp for less support adhesion. Maximal temp for further cooling retraction of the supports.
Oh my! Now I wish I had that option! Hate supports also. I do suspect that if you tuned the interface gap that the PETG would be better, but yes by default removing support on it is more difficult. I feel your pain. 😂
I have being doing that for about 5 years now,ABS with PLA, PLA with PETG, PLA with HTPS PETG with HTPS, the combo that doesen't really workis ABS with HTPS, they stick well together,also ABS with PLA sticks a bit more than PLA with PETG.
I also noticed the best support material is the one that has similar printing temp with the main part.
I also noticed the heatsink cooling with air is a bit of a problem so all my printers now are watercooled, all have enclosure.
I also noticed that priting with zero supports saves time and material in priting, and in post processing, hence I now build myself a 5 axis core XY machine, aiming to port it to 9 axis this summer, so by printing non planar from a (inexistent for now) non planar slicer, will be even better.
Broke three parts this morning not checking where the support was going using PETG. The walls are 0.4 so holding the bits while forcing supports off/out caused several squeezed to hard moments and split. I have a BTT Manta M8P coming, She's got a couple of spare driver spaces, Adding a extra extruder for this sounds like a plan.
NGL, this exact use case is why I built my Tridex Voron, it's like magic lol
honestly if I used my 3d printer as much as i thought I would, I would switch to one of those printers just to make the pain of support structures way less and easier to remove. Never thought about it until now, but makes sense and is a game changer.
Thank you! I wonder how abs pla combination would work. Also, print support material as cold as possible for better removal.
Mind Blown! Thank you!
holy crap, I'm gunna try this on my Bambulab. I know it's much more waste than idex but if it's just the interface layer and it happens to be flat, it should be only a couple changes necessary per print.
Nylon with another material would be amazing. Imagine the new capabilities of print in place mechanisms designed to slip against each other if you can find a material to print alongside nylon!
As an extension to this, depending on geometry of the model, you can print the support seperately, then start the main print and use an M600 command on the overhang layer to pause the print, allowing you to insert the pre-printed support, which you can then print ontop of, allowing you to use this same method on a single extruder machine
Funny, I was just mentioning this on @Maddy Deee Media, within a week ago. Happy to know others have also picked up on the fact!
Great idea!
The trick for using HIPS to support ABS seems to be keeping the support structure sparse and the roof thin enough so the HIPS can flex. Zig Zag support makes the most sense in that respect. HIPS will peel away easily if you can get under one edge and flex it away, almost like breaking surface tension. It doesn't work so well if you try to pull a big solid block off. Also keep the support distance a couple line widths wide so that nozzle offset errors don't result in the support fusing to the part. For flat parts no solvent is needed and HIPS doesn't absorb moisture any worse than ABS. I haven't used it enough to speak with any kind of authority, but that is what I have learned over maybe a dozen prints using it for support. I plan to give the PETG supports for PLA a test soon if my project will fit on the IDEX.
Awesome video, would you mind sharing your the settings you used to get the nice twist off effect
Let's see a comprehensive review of the snapmaker j1!
How serendipitous, I just tried to complete a print by switching from PLA that ran out to PETG. Well those layers didn't stick...
I would love to see print in place things with the interfaces being different materials, like an axle or one of the octopus prints with the material changing every other link.
I'd be interested to see this in a non twist scenario. Most parts will not be able to be twisted to remove the support. I wonder how they function for purely normal forces.
I would be interested in seeing combinations of tpu, abs/asa, pla and petg as these are the most common materials I use. Maybe throw in there some kind of CF-Nylon 🤩
If we could add a option in slicer to change filament only for interface layer it is possible use this feature on a normal printer by manually changing filament
I just tried this on my X1 Carbon and the results were amazing! Thank you so much for the suggestion!
How to set this up with the difference in temperature for pla and petg? The bambu software keeps telling me to turn off the bed plate heating.
The object is pteg and trying to use pla as a transition layer with the supports as pet.g
@@dlee9174 I had a similar issue when I first tried it. After adding the PLA interface material, the build plate was changed to the cool plate. All I had to do was change the plate type back to Textured PEI, which is the one I originally intended to use.
@@dlee9174 The hotend will adjust the nozzle temperature automatically between interface layers. If it's telling you to turn off the bed plate heating, your bed plate selection may have been reverted to cool plate. Try selecting the option for your specific hot plate. For me, I had to reselect the Textured PEI Plate option under Plate Type.
I tried today to use TPU as a flexible joint between PETG parts but the adhession was not so great. Never thought about using different materials as support. :D
It's been long known that this works. It would've been more interesting to see some material combinations that haven't already been beaten to death. Maybe for another video.
Need to try this on my Bambu X1C
Thank You
Yep - been doing this on my ff creator pro 2 for a while. Idex has a lot of advantages.
Amazing !!!
The issue with this for me was contamination from stringing ruins the strength and creates a weak point. Which is why my Doot Eternal tool changer if I ever make one might have a hot part cooling fan.
this is the reason I'm getting a Prusa XL
This has me thinking about using pre-printed supports on non-multi-material printers. Kind of like how people pause a print to insert magnets or nuts, but with a support. Obviously it would depend on the model, and wouldn't be quite as clean as 0 gap, but could really help in some cases. Such supports might even be reusable.
I do that with tpu, pre print support in abs, works well.
And here I was, all happy thinking I don't need the AMS with my X1C. DAMNIT!
I guess I'm giving away my own trade secret but whatever 😆. For my business I use one extruder with PLA and one with TPU. Both work as supports for each other without using a z gap. Even better, with ideamaker I set the infill and inner shells to PLA, the outer walls to tpu, and the supports to pla. It makes impact resistant yet stiff parts with easily removable support. Effectively creating a built in shock absorbing layer on the outside. Only downside is tpu is hard to print cleanly. You need to tune the linear advance quite a bit to get good prints. I highly recommend overture highspeed TPU for that purpose.
if at some point IDEX or tool changers become standard features like ABL and coreXY have recently, I can see this becoming the new standard for supports.
Was literally talking about this today how i want to try this
This makes me want to add tool changers to my project 3D printer so I can use this feature
Would love to see some standardized strength testing on parts made where PLA/PETG are purged from one another. There isn't much info about this hanging around the usual internets.
Amazing! Thanks! How about a support material for ASA?? I love printing in ASA.
Interesting, but the geometry of this test seems to favor this method of supports. I’m curious how more typical support applications would fare and how to handle disparate bed temps of materials. Split the difference, use the temperature of the predominant material, or maybe print on a raft?
This is genius, I'm going to give it a try on my J1! If you don't mind me asking, what profile did you use on prusaslicer for the J1? Thanks!
awesome !
I accidently discovered this last week when I put accidently loaded a roll of PLA instead of PETG on a multicolor print. The part delaminated perfectly between the materials.
I found TPU supports really easy to remove!
I've managed to figure out a profile for zero z gap, that release fairly cleanly.
most impressive
Just read the title. If it's what I think, this is genius!
Super cool, didn't know this! With PLA you're lucky that the adhesion strength between support material & base material isn't as important since PLA doesn't warp.
With ABS/PC, it's really hard to find a good support material that has high enough adhesion strength to prevent warping on large parts, but is easy enough to remove. The many "universal high temp" ones out there kind of suck. They either don't dissolve well or they have poor adhesion strength for large parts...although they would work for a small print like the one you tested.
After tons of testing we ended up just using Stratasys SR30 for warpy materials - which you can buy in Makerbot spools.
Of course. He just demoed it on a tiny part made out of toy plastic. Real functional parts are a different story
@@alejandroperez5368 functional parts in PLA are probably fine since PLA doesn't warp much. Just saying it's a much harder problem for warpy materials unfortunately.
I'm very interested in the snapmaker J1 for this very use, I wonder if its possible to use the support material for the interface layer only as others have suggested with the setup you have? To save on changes and print time.
PLA dissolves in saturated NaOH or KOH water solution at 60 degree C. Pieces of PLA filament completely dissaper in this solution in less than 3 hours. So use 2-3 layers shell interface supported by regular supports which then can be from either material and just drop the part in that solution after printing. Ocasional stirring or an aquarium water pump with nylon mesh filter can reduce dissolving time. Important: To remove any alcaline remnants from the porous spaces between layers after that, rinse in citric acid solution at the same solution at the same temperature for the same amount of time. Then like 10 minutes in hot water. Or, use diluted HCl (3-5%) and then baking soda solution to neutralize it then hot water rinse (HCl penetrates deeper to remove alcaline remnants because it is a gas dissolved in water and can jump air bubles between layers).
I already have used PETG to print a raft for a PLA print, using a single extruder printer. I was having a lot of trouble with bed adhesion with this specific roll of PLA, so I sliced the model with a raft and put a filament change right after it, also with zero gap. The print finished with no issues and the raft came off perfectly clean!
TPU doesn't stick well to PLA, so it might work as a good support material. I'm far more excited about the mechanical possibilities. If I print those cool herringbone gear "bearings" they weld up super tight. Printing them in PLA for the hub and outer race, PETG for the "bearing" gears, it should come off the printer and just work. Print-in-Place models just got much cooler.
Ring bearing with surrounding rails. I'm wondering if the tiny gap might make it an air bearing.
Would love to see experimentation with dissimilar supports for ASA. I’ve tried using HIPS with 0 gap as people have suggested in the past, but it only works well under flat surfaces. On sloped or curved overhangs, single lines of the HIPS tend to fuse to the ASA. Printing on X1C
Dissolve away the HIPS lines with limonene.
You ever figure out a good material for ASA I been searching and searching and finding nothing.. Most of anything is to much of a drastic temp change for asa with the ams
As others have said, super cool. Just need an IDEX now😂
Besides this topic, witch is a very good solution, especially with a Dual Extruder Printer - speaking of ... - you own a Snapmaker J1, could you please do a deep review with tipps how to make this machine running without having issues? As they are now shipping more of these, there should be a community to help each other and I´ve heard a lost of problems coming up with SM J1, especially part cooling, slicer "Luban", clogging,...
I would be interested to see if this worked with one of them being abs
I've been doing this for years at work to get good internal profiles..
I have tried this recently on my X1C with good results, but a question I would pose is what bed temperature to use? Selecting PLA + PETG caused the slicer to default to 80 Celcius bed temperature, which is beyond PLA's glass transition temperature. I've read warnings about PLA smushing in the extruder due to heat softening due to high bed & chamber temps, where the PLA balls up enough to plug the extruder and prevent retraction or extrusion. An in-depth study of the ideal compromise settings would be useful, particularly testing open frame and enclosed printers. On the Bambu they recommend printing PLA with the lid off and lots of cooling, due to the potential for blockages in the extruder. To date, I have never run with the lid off or door open for PLA, and the only plugged extruder I've had was due to speckle filament in a 0.4mm nozzle. Weather is getting warmer, though, and up to now my office has been cool so my luck may be coming to an end.