On conditioning | J. Krishnamurti
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2015
- Ojai 1981 - Question #1 from Question & Answer Meeting #1
'You talk about the ill-effects of conditioning. Yet many psychologists and philosophers say that only through proper conditioning can man think and act clearly. What’s your answer?'
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Transcript:
1st Question: You talk about the ill-effects of conditioning. Yet many psychologists, philosophers and so on say that only through proper conditioning can man think and act clearly. What’s your answer?
Now how would you answer that question if it was put to you and you must have thought about it, how would you respond to that? What would be your approach to it? How do you listen to a question of this kind? Do you, after having read many, or perhaps some philosophers and psychologists and books on all that kind of thing, you are ready to respond from your collected memory and answer that question? Or putting aside what others have said, how would you answer it?
First, isn’t it obvious, I think it is, that all human beings throughout the world, after so many millions of years, are conditioned. That’s a fact. They are conditioned by their religions, by establishments of governments, by the economic condition, climate, food, clothes, by their family, by their education, and so on. All human beings right through the world are conditioned. That’s an obvious, acceptable, reasonable fact. And there are those philosophers and psychologists who say that you must accept this conditioning. You have heard about that too. And they assert, some of them, that the conditioning can never be changed. The human condition can never be transformed. There can never be a mutation from this conditioning, and so make the best of it. And if you are a clever writer and have the gift of the tongue, you enlarge that, and you become famous. And we poor laymen accept the people who are clever, erudite and go on with their assertions. But if one can put all that aside and look at ourselves, how do we deal with this fact, which is that we are all conditioned? If you live in India, you are conditioned in a particular way: religion, superstition, ignorance, poverty, the climate, the food, the lack of space, over population; and as you come along West the same phenomenon is going on: the Christians are conditioned after two thousand years by their society, their culture and so on.
Philosophers and psychologists apparently do not investigate themselves. They have theories, they have experimented on pigeons, animals and from that they come to certain conclusions. But they never say, look, I am conditioned, my conditioning is my religion, my society, my family, my name, the tradition, and see if I cannot possibly undo all that and discover if it is at all possible to free the mind from this conditioning. Right? Now can we do that together now? Do you understand my question? Am I making myself clear?
We are conditioned to live in America, you are conditioned by an affluent society, by this enormous drive for pleasure, entertainment; and the fanciful religion and romantic East with their gurus and all that stuff. We are unfortunately conditioned. Now can we discover, become aware of this conditioning? I am conditioned - suppose - I was born in India with all the nonsense that goes on around religion, and they were very, very orthodox at the time the speaker was born, tremendously so-called religious, a Brahmanic class with their tradition and so on. Now if one is aware of that, can one actually free oneself from all that heavy, from two, three, five thousand years of so-called civilisation?
That’s the problem the questioner asks: can I, the questioner says, can I be free from all this? Who is speaking the truth, the philosophers, the psychologists, the people who assert that you cannot possibly change the conditioning of man; human nature can be modified but it can never radically be transformed. If you accept that, which is very convenient and happy, you can trot along for the rest of your life, living in a small circle of conditioning and say that is inevitable. But if one goes into it much more deeply, if one wants to find out what the conditioning is, and whether it is possible to really, very deeply, at the very root of, this conditioning, be free of all that. That’s the question.
Now how does one set about it? I see I am conditioned. What do we mean by that word ‘conditioning’? The brain being very, very pliable, subtle, has an extraordinary capacity to absorb, hold, confine itself to a certain limitation, feeling that it is safe in that limitation, which is really the conditioning - I hope you are following, am I going too fast? - and it feels safe in that conditioning, secure, protected, and it is unwilling to let go and look. Unwilling because of the long habit, the many thousand years of being confined, limited to a particular experience, knowledge and all the rest of it, so it feels completely secure in that conditioning. And it accepts what the psychologists, the philosophers, the other people say: live with it, be happy in it, make the best of it, better bathrooms, better relationship, always a little better, a little more convenient. And all the psychologists help us to be a little more happy, a little more adjustable, a little more accepting what this conditioning involves.
Now if one says, I really want to find out, not what the psychologists, others say, but I really want to find out if this conditioning can ever be resolved. First, what are the results of this conditioning? What happens to a mind, or to a brain that is conditioned, before we can say, I will be free of conditioning? Please, are we meeting each other or shall we go on with this? You are doing it yourself, I am not doing it for myself. This is not group analysis, or group therapy, all that kind of nonsense. But we are trying to find out whether it is possible to free the brain from its heavy conditioning. When one is conditioned, when the brain is conditioned, that conditioning brings various forms of conflict. Right? I am conditioned as a Hindu, suppose, or a Catholic, or a Protestant, or whatever it is. Naturally the brain being so conditioned becomes atrophied. Right? Are we following each other? Have you noticed if you keep on repeating that you are a Christian, that you must behave this way, that you must be like that, that there is only one saviour and so on, so on, so on, this very repetition, this constant acceptance of something unreal, which has no factual actuality, then the brain must inevitably become more and more atrophied. Right? That’s so obvious, you can see them all. When you are constantly repeating, ‘I am a British’, you know, or ‘I am Catholic’, I am this, I am that, then naturally the brain will inevitably become mechanical, will inevitably become narrow, and gradually wither, become atrophied. That’s what is going on. Right?
That is one of the results of conditioning. There are many other factors of this conditioning, which are, separation, division, where there is division there must be conflict. Right? Please we are examining ourselves, looking at our conditioning and investigating that conditioning. The speaker is not investigating but you are doing the investigation, only I am verbalising it. Right? Let’s be clear on that point. You are not listening to the speaker and so accepting what he is saying but you are actually looking at your own conditioning - if you are aware of it, if you want to go into it, if not, it’s all right. But if you are enquiring into it you can observe the results and the consequences of this conditioning.
Then the next question is: is it possible to be free of all this? Why, why should one be free of it? Because the very examination and the reason, sanity, points out one cannot live constantly in a narrow little groove - right? - which emphasises naturally the egotistic, egocentric activity. Right? So what is one to do? I am conditioned, if I am, and I realise the consequences of it. Then is it possible to be free of all that conditioning? Is it possible bit by bit? You understand? Little by little. That may take me for the rest of my life. I may be free of it just as I am dying. That’s not very amusing. That has no meaning. So I ask: is it possible to be aware without any prejudice, without any choice, just be aware of my conditioning? And then is it possible, not allowing time as a factor to dissolve this conditioning - not allowing time - you understand? - am I making myself clear? Time being, I will do it gradually. So is it possible to look at this conditioning without the time element at all? Are you following?
This is not something cranky, some new fad, something you have to accept but you can see, reason points this out. Reason says, you are conditioned, and reason points out that if you take time over it, many years, you have other forms of conditioning going on. Right? So there is only one act that must absolutely dissolve the totality of the conditioning. Right? I am putting this question to you. Look at it first, don’t say, is it possible, it is not possible, and brush it aside.
I am born as a Protestant, or a Catholic, or I have a particular conditioning with regard to nationalism, or I am conditioned to the pursuit of only pleasure at any price - which is what is happening in this country, entertainment. Now can I, not allowing time, which is asking a tremendous question - you understand? - because our brain which has evolved through time - right? - through millions and millions of years, we have come to this point, which is a great tragedy, because look at ourselves, and the brain has evolved in time, and we are asking something, we are demanding the brain to act totally differently. Are we following each other in this? Which is reasonable, you understand? The question may be unreasonable, the question being not to allow time, that may be unreasonable, but we see if we allow time there are other forms of factors entering which will also condition, so the mind can never be free from conditioning if the mind allows time to interfere with the dissolution of conditioning. Is this clear? So I must be absolutely - the brain must understand this, that it has evolved through time, and it is being challenged, a crisis is being brought to it, saying you must be free of time. And that says, that is impossible. That is your natural reaction, isn’t it?
Can we go on from there? I can go on, but you understand? See what takes place when the future is now. I wonder if you see that. The future is time, isn’t it? Tomorrow is time. And if there is no tomorrow, I have to act so completely now, or invite the future now. So that the brain has to face this fact that though it has been trained, educated, conditioned, shaped in the process of time, and now it is facing a challenge which says, think or act totally differently which is not of time. I wonder if you see all this. Are we asking this too much? Qu’est-ce que vous dites? I mean, what do you say?
So that is the real question. The philosophers and the psychologists and others have said, accept human conditioning, modify it, give time, so that it becomes more and more cultured through knowledge, and knowledge becomes all important, knowledge is time, because knowledge means accumulation which means time. I don’t know if you follow all this. And we accept all this because it is very convenient, very natural - apparently very natural. And also it is very convenient, comforting that I have many, some years and so on and so on. Now when the brain is challenged that it is not through time that the condition can be dissolved, then it says, it is impossible and it is stuck there. That’s what is happening to you now. I don’t know if you observe, if you are aware of the fact. Right? Can we go on from there a little bit? The speaker can go on verbally, explain, but that is of no value unless you yourself actually perceive it, see the truth of this fact that if you allow time, and time is not a factor that can dissolve or uncondition the mind, as when the mind is conditioned the consequences are what we live with: our struggle, conflict, misery, all the rest of it, which is part of our conditioning.
So can the brain be free, able to look at this problem, this challenge, without any fear, without any choice, face it? Then the brain becomes extraordinarily active, doesn’t it? I wonder if you notice it. You have broken the tradition. And then one asks, what is freedom then? You understand? The freedom that we have taken for granted, to do what we like to do, that is what we call freedom - right? - especially in this country, we are all free to do what we like - and immediately, if possible. The consequences of that, you know what it is. That’s not freedom, obviously. So freedom then means the brain being free of the conditioning and is incapable of thinking in terms of time. Just a minute, go into it slowly.
I need time to learn how to drive a car. I need time to learn a language, a month, six weeks, or three months. I need time to learn any skill. There I need time. But I discover that time psychologically is not necessary. The time has conditioned us. Right? I wonder if you see all this. And the question of time, both the physical as well as psychological time: the physical time is necessary to go from here to where one lives, but time as the future, of me getting better and better and better, me trying to become somebody, psychologically, is it a fact? Or is it an illusion which thought has created: I am not happy, but I will be happy; heaven is in that hole and ultimately I will go there. All the evangelistic promises, you know all that is going on in this country.
So can the brain be free of conditioning as time? You understand my question? And the philosophers and the psychologists say that is impossible. And there have been specialists having written books, published, sell it, they become famous and we, laymen, accept it, we accept the specialists. Right? That is one of our conditionings.
So when you look at all this, sensitively aware of what the others are saying, and sensitively aware of one’s own conditioning, and seeing that time is a factor that really shapes the brain to a particular conditioning - it has taken two thousand years for Christians to accept all that tremendous propaganda which is going on now; and the Hindus with their propaganda three thousand, four thousand years. It has taken time. The constant repetition: Jesus is the saviour; and they have their own pattern in India, in Japan, in China, repeat, repeat, repeat. Obviously the brain becomes atrophied and probably that is what is happening to humankind. Right?
Sorry one has taken so long about one question.
Only when one is open to questions, one can really find the truth, the real one
the moment you question everything!!!!
you stop accepting lies and start find the truth
"A belief is a practiced thought." Abraham Hicks
Thank you so much for your transcription!!!
a conditioned mind is an empty mind, it is only the mind that is free from conditioning thats a free thinking mind, and anyway, the mind shoukd not be in charge, nor the ego, when your not conditioned you can know this, the heart is so much more powerfull and atronger than the mind, society teaches us the heart hurts when we have emotions, nonsense, the heart is so
much more stinger and piwerfull than we are taught, the heart itself speaks, the brain is noise as its constantly helping ego and visa versa, the heart does not have ego, and the gut never liies.
Michelle, ImanGamer and Inam YellowGamer I never thought about it in that sense. I completely agree with these words of wisdom, " The heart has no ego, and the gut never lies" Wow!
Sir can we have a pdf file of this talks...since some words seem unclear 🙏🙏plz also tell from which books of jk are these tasks?
If interpretation through conditioning was an accurate representation of truth, we would all interpret things in exactly the same way!
Keep uploading 👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤😊💪💪🤝🤝🤝🤝❤❤❤❤❣❣❣
Hey guys, you already have so many subtitles translated from different languages, when are you going to upload them on youtube?
Alex Khouri It is one of our projects for the future, but at the moment we are focussing on making available unreleased material.
J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel yes,yes need translated subtitles
+J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel thank you
Conditioning may be related to heridity. What all my ancestors did, their body structure and thinking is continuing to manifest in us, maybe.😔
So you think it has more to do with Biology then psychology ?seriously🤔he said here about tradition ,religion , family/ mind conditioning and explained it!!!
What is conditioning
It's all the things we are taught that usually are not based in Truth of any sort...you're a man and men do this or you're a woman and women sfo this or you're born in america so you're an american and americans do this... basically we can't trust ourselves bc we've been taught a bunch of lies and all thinking decisions are made with our mind but our minds have been created and formed off of lies...the heart is where to make decisions from but we get taught or conditioned to think our minds know better than our hearts so the people who have been controlling this world for thousands of years can keep control...if we can get past the mind nothing would be operating the way it is now...it would be pro human instead of anti human...