100% agree with the utility lands that have good effects in theory, but in practice are brutally overcosted. On the small note. filter lands are awesome with mana doublers (Mana reflection and nyxbloom ancient).
that was the whole idea behind my old golos deck before it was banned(and a planned kenrith deck i never built) where i used all 10 filters and all 10 bounce lands with extra land plays and mana doublers
I've started an experiment with running Myriad Landscape in basically all of my decks. I had kind of forgotten about it until the recent Command Zone podcast episode on lands where they mentioned it was the most common colorless-mana-producing utility land that they've run in their Game Knights decks. It has two big strikes against it: it not only taps for colorless but also comes into play tapped...but it does let you add a ramp spell "for free" to your deck, and it's land ramp that goes into any color of deck. That same Command Zone episode also convinced me that I needed to add more lands to most of my decks, so I decided I might as well throw in Myriad Landscape as one of those extra lands.
Tainted wood and Tainted Field are great for decks that only splash the green or white for Disenchant. Only because of the obvious reason of black not having a Disenchant in its toolkit.
I think this topic is a big part of 'the format has gotten faster' Gavony Township is another of those 'just not good enough' anymore. Blighted Woodland feels in the same camp. Spending '5 mana' to ramp once just really doesn't cut the mustard anymore. Temple was great 10 years ago when nothing meaningful happened till everyone had 4-8 mana, and the games would run very long. Now with commanders like Jetmir, you better have a dominant board position by T5-6 to be a dangerous beatdown deck, otherwise a combo deck is going to threaten to kill the table.
48:55 - "Effectively having to pay three mana to flash in one card" Matt, you're playing Simic wrong. You don't just flash in one card - you flash in 3-4. And tapping three lands is nothing when you've ramped to 20+.
The utility lands I refuse to cut are: Ghost Quarter, Scavenger grounds, and the pain deserts (because of scavenger grounds)! Quarter is just so nice as protection vs coffers nonsense, scavenger grounds is nigh needed if you're not playing a yard deck (as much as it pains me), and the deserts have very low opportunity cost with potential upside! If you've never killed someone who's trying to draw their deck exactly with an Ipnu Riverlet, you've never lived.
Deserts are nice for Hour of Promise too. Getting to put any 2 lands from your library into play is great.. getting a couple bonus zombies out of that is even BETTER.
If you want a flash granting effect on a land, go with Emergence Zone. It’s a regular land that taps for mana and also there when you actually need it. It’s unrestricted, the effect cannot be removed once resolved, and it lets you pull off combos outside of main phases. People routinely forget about it too so you can catch people off guard. I have it in every commander deck atm. We’ll see if it makes the cut for Kelsien, there’s a lot of instances in there already. Regarding Opal Palace, you need a commander that can reduce or pay alternative costs for command tax. Someone mentioned Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, but one that I have is Licia, Sanguine Tribune. Her deck is built to only pay RWB no matter how many times I recast her (current record is 3 times in a single turn).
This is one of your best discussions so far! Partly because you got through the puns portion faster, but, also, the nuances of land selection are super important.
I've been tinkering with mono cycle lands in some decks, and I'm liking them. The trick is that if you're playing lean enough on lands so that you'd basically never cycle them, they're garbage, because they're worse basics.
The filter lands that filter into two blue become useful in a blue deck because they can be used to convert a non-blue land into Counterspell mana. I wouldn't say they are spectacular, but I will say that I have had my butt saved more than once by the ability to turn that Mountain into 2U.
I love them. They make playing spells with two pips of a certain color much easier in 3-color decks, and I too have had the joy of playing a BB spell when all I had was a Forest and a Twilight Mire.
If you're looking for extra land destruction in mono black there are a couple stand out options. Helldozer tends to be the go to since it's a zombie and is repeatable. Demonic Hordes can also work- essentially a beta version o helldozer Minion of Leshrac is also mana intensive but can destroy lands AND creatures Herald of Leshrac TAKES lands as a cumulative upkeep cost There is however one card in particular that is quite effective at blowing up lands in mono black without being nearly as mana intensive.. Earthblighter^^ Do note that you WILL need Goblins to throw at the lands in question.. And yes... you read that correctly "A single dedicated mind can bring about the greatest destruction. That, or goblins-goblins work too." Almost worth it just for the flavor text^^
I think for the Snarl based lands the enemy color ones would make it into their two color decks then the ally ones. They haven't made several of the newer cycles into enemy color lands so you don't have a varient of the Battle for Zendicar or the Amoncat lands.
A niche case, but my most expensive deck intentionally plays filter lands and bounce lands. Once you have a mana multiplier like Mana Reflection or Nyxbloom Ancient, they net you way more mana as the output is doubled or tripled.
For context to those who did not get the first two jokes the boulder is a character from Avatar The Last Airbender they are a part of season 2 and help introduce one of the protagonists crew and the Zamboni is the vehicle that is used to redo the surface of ice rings before things like hockey games and other such events
I bought the fetchlands when the coof started because I got them in MTGO and they felt great. Recently I played with them in paper and soon after sold them. I do play Temple of the False God because I play Ancient Tomb often and like symmetry. It's been a problem less than 1% of the time I've drawn it, even less now that there's always either Urborg or Yavimaya in play. Both Guildless Commons and Crystal Vein are notably worse. All my decks start with Reliquary Tower, Scavenger Grounds, Wasteland and Strip Mine.
I know they're not great, but I love the slow fetch lands so much. They're ideal for powering down a deck because they slow your tempo down by a turn or two and that can let you keep playing bombs you love. They're also still legal in Conquest, and given how amazing that format is (normal Fetches are banned in it) - they have a welcome home there for me.
The filter lands definitely aren't worth 20+$ but they are very underappreciated. Being able to make 2 colors and colorless mana isn't super easy to find and they come in untapped
One big change I made recently was swapping out Check Lands for Slow Lands. It's far more likely for me to have 2 lands out than to have specific a basic type out consistently, especially in 3+ color decks. I also in general play more basics lately because so many effects my opponents are using come with me fetching a basic (Path to Exile, Tempt, Winds of Abandon, etc.) and my local meta has been banking on the prevalence of greedy multi-colored mana bases to not run enough of them.
I imagine for Winding Canyon and Alchemists Refuge they're probably quite potent if you're playing things like Seedborn Muse/Awakening. Also note that it' s effectively a tax of 2 or 3 no matter if you're putting out 1 creature/permanent... or 50.
No one will ever talk me down from using Temple of the False God in most of my decks. The number of times it’s helped me recast my commander far outweighs the number of times it has sat in my hand waiting for 4 other lands to be on my board.
Yeah, one of the worst things to happen to Commander was the lowering of the mana curve. This isn't Modern. Luckily, cEDH came about, and now the Modern players are quarantining themselves off.
It’s interesting seeing these arguments against some of my absolutely favorite budget land cards. As someone who builds almost exclusively budget model bases for his decks, I run quite a few of these in efficient dual lands. Also, opal palace is one of my favorite utility lands. However, I do only run it in two of my decks, because they can take advantage of the plus one counter it gives.
Man, nothing can completely make my head spin more than hearing how other people evaluate lands. I swear to god I've never heard two philosophies that are exactly the same. And when you start comparing the priorities of players from different groups it's frequently not even close.
Filter lands are fantastic in any deck that has a lot of double-pip mana costs, especially on their commanders. If you want to cast an Ultimatum or activate a Halo Fountain, I recommend them.
The tapped fetches are interesting, because while I would hardly run them for manafixing nor landfall, they do have their place still. Mainly for fetching the Eldraine lands (Mystic Sanctuary, Witch's Cottage etc) on a budget for decks that really care about their respective effect. This is preferably done in a multicolor deck, which heavily leans towards the color of the respective land, so that the fetch can manafix you or get you the Eldraine land effect later in the game.
I think of Temple of the False God the same way as Maze of Ith. Maze isn't a land, is a removal spell. Same goes for Temple, is not a land but a ramp spell
Alchemist’s refuge is a control powerhouse. Being able to spend your early turns holding up mana and not being greedy with developing your board gets rewarded when later you can develop your board while also not dieing. Heaven forbid you get to a point in which 3 mana is negligable🙄
That's actually really funny because a proper manabase is the absolute best thing that you can do to up your power level and smooth out the way the deck runs. It's the first thing that I do when deck building. If you can't cast spells on time you are going to have a bad time.
@@GrinningFeline I have a really hard time understanding why people choose MTG if they don't actually have the money to play the game or if they can't be okay with playing at a budget. There literally isn't a single person that plays the game that is blissfully unaware of how expensive the game is. Then people whine and whine but they knew what they were getting into. Why not choose a game that is less expensive? A game where literally no one can out spend another person to gain an edge. I don't know, it's the strangest thing.
@@Squee_666_9 There is a place to play a $50 deck and a place to play a $12,000 dollar deck. Unfortunately for me my friends got me hooked on EDH late in life, unlike them pulling alpha duals. FYI: that kind of thinking is gatekeeping, and unhealthy to the community as a whole. In casual EDH I say buy what you can or want to and proxy for the level of optimization you want. I don’t proxy to pub stomp, I proxy to match my playgroup’s collective power level for a fun time all around. Also I have an addiction to deck building around dumb restrictions for flavor purposes and have 6.5 very different decks all with a cat in the command zone spanning from precon to high power (~7/8? but well below tier 2 cEDH). Without proxies this would be impossible on most budgets.
@@Squee_666_9 doesn’t it seem predatory to you that, to a large degree, the game is pay-to-win? Especially in the context of lands. Maybe it’s just me, but when the prices of the cards you need to play other cards (read: play the game) are prohibitive, I think there’s something wrong. I say this as a person who has played the game for 12 years, and who has put in a ton of cash to build nearly 30 commander decks - so clearly, I’m willing to participate. I just can’t help but make the observation. And to answer your question, people choose to play magic because it’s simply one of the best games out there!
On a note about the creature lands, I remember running them all the time, and they were pretty good when I first started and didn't have a lot of card draw in my decks, and was a good thing to do when I had nothing else to cast. But i've gotten better about always keeping my hand relatively full, so they usually just went unactivated in like 99% of games that they just got cut at some point.
I like the shadow/reveal lands as budget-friendly options that are sometimes untapped. I *was* also under the impression that they worked together alongside other lands that care about basics or land types, such as the tainted lands, check lands, and tango lands. this makes for a nice little budget-friendly mana base. so I've tried to build with this in mind, which has forced me to run a reasonable number of basics, even in a 3-color deck, which is a good thing. I recently cut terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds (but not fabled passage. I don't have prismatic vista FYI) from my Inalla deck to make room for upgrades, but the mana base is also built to support the aforementioned cycles of lands that care about basics or specific land types. I thought I had a level-up moment regarding the basic fetches (I'd previously cut Grixis Panorama too), but now that I look at it, I could cut the Tainted Isle and maybe trim a Swamp. to support the Isle I've skewed the mana base to be more black-heavy compared to the color requirements of the deck. but looking at the change in a vacuum, cutting two untapped lands (Swamp, Tainted Isle) for two tapped lands that only make one color (Evolving, Terramorphic) makes the mana base slower. so I've talked myself out of the basic fetches again. if anyone followed that, I'd be curious on your thoughts on the basic fetches, which until very recently were auto-includes after sol ring, command tower, and arcane signet in 2+ color decks.
For Shorikai, I suggest the Forsaken monument. Gives your pilot +2/+2, adds another colorless to your mana that produces it (on my list I do have quite a number at least), and as a bonus - gains you 2 life per colorless spell you cast (most vehicles are colorless look at that).
I do think the mono colored green cycle lands are great in mono green. If you're running enough draw, and we all know green is great for doing so, getting mana flooded is an issue. That's why I run both them and MDFC lands.
I quite like the old Tainted lands from Torment, dirt cheap, only need a Swamp. So I have grown fond of the duals with basic land types, even if they are always tapped. This leads to a small cascade of looking for ways to fetch these duals. And since my favourite new creature is Perennial Behemoth, the cheap fetch lands like Terramorphic Expanse are handy. While in the dragon deck where very few lands come into play tapped I found Darigaaz Caldera perfect. As I avoid the overprices duals I find quite a lot of cute and useful alternatives all over the place.
Temple of the false god is a good card in certain casual decks. If your ramp is land based and your mana curve tops out at 8 or more, this card is legit. This is a casual card, but commander is a casual format
1 Joey loved the intro reference. 2 opal Palace is basically the old school way of saying "{t}: put a +1/+1 counter on a commander that entered the battlefield this turn, if it were cast" because the mana cost and produced by its ability cover each other. It just seems worse due to 2013 wording
Alchemist's Refuge and Winding Canyons are explicitly for decks that run Seedborn Muse. I don't run Winding Canyons in my Seedborn Muse decks anymore though.
The common one-mana cyclers like lonely sandbar are good in pauper commander but I've never considered playing them in EDH outside of specific synergies. Same goes for cards like cave of temptation and opal palace, or really any other common utility land.
To mention an obvious one: Bojuka Bog is a tapland that only produces one color and lowers your basic count. I still run it in everything with black including 5 color decks and mono black extraplanar lens decks. Free graveyard hate is just that good. It's often more used like a spell than a land though.
I like the Filter lands primarily for decks where one color is much heavier than the other, or otherwise the particular colors are demanding. For instance, I run an Akiri Fearless Voyager deck that is 60% white and 25% red (and a fair amount of colorless). That, and Akiri's activated ability costing W, I want as few mountains as possible, so being able to turn a mountain and Rugged Prairie into WW is something I like that a normal dual can't do.
I'm only running the mono-colored cycling land for a mono-red deck. Helping get an extra card type for Delirium or adding additional fodder for Underworld Breach, and getting a card to do so, is helpful, especially when I find I'm petering out in card velocity quite frequently. Is it worth the tempo hit, like Dana says? Probably not. There's more than likely better ways to achieve the same goal, but it's a slight synergy that at least works on paper.
The one time I've ever really got to play Alchemist's Refuge it won me the game. Flashed in a Biovisionary on the end step before my turn, then on my actual turn I Demonstrated a Replication Technique with Adrix and Nev on the battlefield to get four Biovisionary tokens and win. Had I played Biovisionary on my turn and let it sit on the table, it would have no doubt been removed before it got back to my turn.
Regarding Snarls I found that their performance hinges on the curve of your deck. Because you're way more likely to also have other lands in your hand at the start of the game, they play somewhat like the Kaladesh "two or fewer other lands" cycle. So in my Ghyrson Starn list, which really wants to get pingers out on the first few turns, they feel great! Don't need the mana as much for the midgame turns, so having them be tapped then is ok. Looking at my high cmc Yennett Sphinx tribal deck on the other hand, I hardly have stuff to cast early anyways, so I struggle to benefit off of Snarls. While it seems quite obvious in hindsight, figuring out why the same type of land felt so good in one and terrible in the other deck, was actually quite a challenge.
For me, opal palace is a mid game include for hand commanders that run Ozolith. When you have the mana that a counter matters, you want it to still matter when the commander is gone.
The temples that tap for 2 colorless if you control 5 or 7 lands have spectacularly allowed me to play my Gargos Vicious Watcher 5-6 times a game from the command zone
I like the Filter Lands, they are particularly good for 2 and 3 color decks where you have a notable amount of cards that require multiple mana of the same specific color. Particularly notable for blue decks that want to run Counterspell and Friends. But yeah, the price point on them is kinda... prohibitive. I was theorycrafting a 5 color deck today, a fun themed little 5 color deck, which would also be pretty cheap... but the problem is, since I want to keep it cheap, I cannot run any of the good dual lands. In a 5 color deck. So half the lands come into play tapped. Which, when trying it out solitaire, has such an absolutely crushing effect on the earlygame. It would be so much better if I replaced the tricolor lands with the newer, fetchable, cyclable ones, and the regular duals with shocklands. But then the deck would go up from 30 bucks to like 200...
Lol 🤣 this intro was fantastic time to start mimeing going down a escalator! It was cool seeing what lands aren't being played! I know in standered I find it tough keeping in basics I only got 3 basics in my deck
The best way to play Dust Bowl is if you WANT specific lands from your deck to get replayed. F.e. I run it in my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis deck that wants to sacrifice its own lands. The first land that almost always gets sacrificed with my Dust Bowl, is my Mystic Sanctuary. That I can later replay for value. And then sacrifice it again. And replay it. See where this is going?
I recently cut tolaria west because always want to cast spells rather than grab a utility land In my riku deck. Two land I'm now think about cutting from decks are alchemist refuge (riku of two reflection) and inventors fair (boros equip)because of how little I use them
I definitely don’t think of myself as an Opal Palace fan, but I run it in my Liesa, Angel of Dusk deck where I can recast Liesa as much as I want, and the counters help me gain life to fund it. Not having a commander tax in mana makes it a lot more viable, but it still doesn’t feel especially strong.
if you're on a budget and in a 2 color deck, the snarl lands perform really well, especially if you're running a lot of basics. I kinda compare them to the fast lands that come in tapped if you have more than 2 lands. You guys have access to all the fetches and all the shocks but the average casual player doesn't.
If you can find someone way to tap/untap opal palace and use all that mana to cast your commander, it will come in with a number of counters on it equal to it's current mana value times how many times you cast it from your command zone. I think I worded that correctly. I'm aware it would take a lot of resources to make it work, but it's a fun stupid thing that would be cool to see if someone could make it work.
I run the filter lands in my Jeskai spellslinger deck, but not really in much else. And that's only because the rituals only make red, but I need a lot of blue, so I run everything I could get my hands on that can turn red into not red
When I make my mana base, I also look at my curve and how competitive the deck is. My curve is important because I can play tapped lands for the turns im usually not going to play anything anyway. Competitiveness is somthing I learned the more untapped lands the better the decks get.
Winding canyons is huge in zombie tribal when you get to the point you can cast zombies from the yard and even better with rooftop storm out. Yes vedalkan orrery would do the job but canyons feels very on theme for tribal.
Filter lands and signet lands are two woefully underappreciated cycles. Signet lands turning mana crypt or sol ring or ancient tomb mana into colored mana has won me a lot of games
Love me the filters, hate the Signet lands. Lands do not make the cut in any deck of mine if they can't produce mana by themselves, that's a rule I've never broken or even bent.
@@TrueTgirl they do produce +1 mana as long as you have at least 1 mana to pour into them. You should never keep a 1 land hand, and unless you have only signet lands in your opening hand, these work. But you aren't alone in your dislike for this cycle, which is fine because it keeps this cycle affordable for me :)
@@andrewpeli9019 I'm not saying I'm logical, just that I'm weirdly particular sometimes lol. And hey that's how I feel with temples and reveal lands like the snarls. Honestly I think it's healthy if we don't all agree on the best land cycles both in a budget way and format diversity/balance way.
@Andrew Peli I’m with you on these! I love the signet lands, especially because I love three color decks and like to be able hit all the colors I need fast. Plus the fact that they are from Odyssey is a big win.
okay so besides the usual fetchlands/color fixers such as Myriad Landscape, Evolving wilds/terramorphic expanse, the fetchlands I own, I typically use a small list of utility lands in most of my decks. I do avoid stuff like Opal Palace unless I care about my commander's power being larger, and Study hall is good but it's a bit slow. Path of ancestry comes to mind as a usual include, as it still produces colored mana despite entering tapped i'll play it in most multicolored decks. Im also a huge fan of Field of Ruin over Ghost Quarter, the card advantage math works out better in my opinion (you're not down a land and same with the player you hit with the field if they're not you, so if everybody has the same amount of lands you're only down a land compared to two opponents instead of three like with GQ.
Arcane Lighthouse is one that becomes worse and worse, esp cause ward is actually pretty good ^^. one land that i like is Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. just an additional option to draw cards if your unlucky is insane to get out of your bad situation :D
I have one deck that uses creature lands as a staple. It also has ways to make all lands be creatures and spells that can be used if the lands left untapped aren't utilized during opponents turn(s). I use the occasional creature land as a backup for if i have no other creature in play sometimes. Creature lands are useful in destroy all creatures all the F'n time decks. I don't find those decks very fun though TBH.
I stopped using Cavern of Souls in my non-tribal decks, no point in using it if you only have 1 or 2 creatures to use it on and 1 of those will most likely be the commander so it generally just sits there as a colourless land most of the time
Personally I actually still like running the monocolor cycling lands but I tend to run only 1 or 2 color decks. It probably is the wrong choice but I do value the ability to pitch for a single mana and "reroll" my draw.
Lol, I start with dual lands then shock then fetch, and then command tower/mana confluence/city of brass/orchard/ then battle bond lands and then maybe utility land, and if theres room maybe 1-2 basics, but rarely make it past 30 lands in a deck ^_^
I use to play the snarl lands in my standard decks for awhile then tried it in commander and realized how bad those lands could get especially when you're drawing into any basics
Weird, i play the Reveal / Snarl Lands in all my two colored, Non-Cedh Decks. Most of the time they come into play untapped. In my Experience in 90 percent of the time, but maybe i am lucky. I tend to play not many Lands, that enter the Battlefield tapped. Never put them in a three color Deck though.
@@lanevisual well and also there's pretty massive upside with the reveal lands where the consistency of one life or a scry I feel like is not worth never coming in untapped personally
You guys are nuts if you're going to put signet lands over filter lands. Signet lands can be dead draws earlier on or if you mistap mana. Filter lands come in untapped and can give you a wide swath of mana options. Signets only give you one of each. I only put signet lands in if I've got nothing better for untapped nonbasics.
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The filter lands are not top tier, but still better than checklands. Especially in red and black where they can convert ritual bursts of single colored mana. If you have effects like that, or need colorless mana, they're really good. Otherwise they're still like checklands but with slight upsides.
I love the cycling lands like Secluded Steppe depending on the color. Probably need some extra deck synergy to make them worth in blue or black but in colors like boros I think they're very helpful. I run 3 cycling lands in my Kemba deck because it helps with flooding and mono white doesn't have a ton of draw so being able to turn a later land draw into something else can be so helpful. They also work well with Sun Titan.
Hard disagree on filter lands, Oddysey ones are basically unplayable if not bound by budget, and Shadowmoor ones are great at fixing colours as pips get more specialised for higher powered cards, especially when things in white and blue often require a lot of pips. If not for cost of allied colour ones I would use them wherever possible if for 2 and 3 colour decks.
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I do have a Creeping Tar Pit in my Yuriko deck. When it animates it's unblockable. Surprise, the land was a ninja the entire time!
That’s honestly the only land from that cycle I like.
100% agree with the utility lands that have good effects in theory, but in practice are brutally overcosted.
On the small note. filter lands are awesome with mana doublers (Mana reflection and nyxbloom ancient).
that was the whole idea behind my old golos deck before it was banned(and a planned kenrith deck i never built) where i used all 10 filters and all 10 bounce lands with extra land plays and mana doublers
Let’s take a second to appreciate how fast and accurately he pronounced asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar lol
I've started an experiment with running Myriad Landscape in basically all of my decks. I had kind of forgotten about it until the recent Command Zone podcast episode on lands where they mentioned it was the most common colorless-mana-producing utility land that they've run in their Game Knights decks. It has two big strikes against it: it not only taps for colorless but also comes into play tapped...but it does let you add a ramp spell "for free" to your deck, and it's land ramp that goes into any color of deck. That same Command Zone episode also convinced me that I needed to add more lands to most of my decks, so I decided I might as well throw in Myriad Landscape as one of those extra lands.
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Tainted wood and Tainted Field are great for decks that only splash the green or white for Disenchant.
Only because of the obvious reason of black not having a Disenchant in its toolkit.
I think this topic is a big part of 'the format has gotten faster'
Gavony Township is another of those 'just not good enough' anymore.
Blighted Woodland feels in the same camp. Spending '5 mana' to ramp once just really doesn't cut the mustard anymore.
Temple was great 10 years ago when nothing meaningful happened till everyone had 4-8 mana, and the games would run very long.
Now with commanders like Jetmir, you better have a dominant board position by T5-6 to be a dangerous beatdown deck, otherwise a combo deck is going to threaten to kill the table.
I'd say blighted woodland is still to be considered in landfall because you get two triggers. Anything else it's just doo doo.
@@sawderf741 and if you have splendid reclamation, or other "land from the grave" effects.
48:55 - "Effectively having to pay three mana to flash in one card" Matt, you're playing Simic wrong. You don't just flash in one card - you flash in 3-4. And tapping three lands is nothing when you've ramped to 20+.
feels kinda win more at that point though. if you already have that much mana hopefully you've got a winning board state regardless of a flash land.
The utility lands I refuse to cut are: Ghost Quarter, Scavenger grounds, and the pain deserts (because of scavenger grounds)! Quarter is just so nice as protection vs coffers nonsense, scavenger grounds is nigh needed if you're not playing a yard deck (as much as it pains me), and the deserts have very low opportunity cost with potential upside! If you've never killed someone who's trying to draw their deck exactly with an Ipnu Riverlet, you've never lived.
I have strip mine and tec edge in Mina and Denn. I may have stip mine locked my friends once or twice oops.
Deserts are nice for Hour of Promise too. Getting to put any 2 lands from your library into play is great.. getting a couple bonus zombies out of that is even BETTER.
Something tells me the podcast next week are lands they keep in the majority of their decks and a few of those kaboom lands are certainty there.
If you want a flash granting effect on a land, go with Emergence Zone. It’s a regular land that taps for mana and also there when you actually need it. It’s unrestricted, the effect cannot be removed once resolved, and it lets you pull off combos outside of main phases. People routinely forget about it too so you can catch people off guard. I have it in every commander deck atm. We’ll see if it makes the cut for Kelsien, there’s a lot of instances in there already.
Regarding Opal Palace, you need a commander that can reduce or pay alternative costs for command tax. Someone mentioned Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, but one that I have is Licia, Sanguine Tribune. Her deck is built to only pay RWB no matter how many times I recast her (current record is 3 times in a single turn).
This is one of your best discussions so far! Partly because you got through the puns portion faster, but, also, the nuances of land selection are super important.
I've been tinkering with mono cycle lands in some decks, and I'm liking them. The trick is that if you're playing lean enough on lands so that you'd basically never cycle them, they're garbage, because they're worse basics.
The filter lands that filter into two blue become useful in a blue deck because they can be used to convert a non-blue land into Counterspell mana. I wouldn't say they are spectacular, but I will say that I have had my butt saved more than once by the ability to turn that Mountain into 2U.
I love them. They make playing spells with two pips of a certain color much easier in 3-color decks, and I too have had the joy of playing a BB spell when all I had was a Forest and a Twilight Mire.
If you're looking for extra land destruction in mono black there are a couple stand out options.
Helldozer tends to be the go to since it's a zombie and is repeatable.
Demonic Hordes can also work- essentially a beta version o helldozer
Minion of Leshrac is also mana intensive but can destroy lands AND creatures
Herald of Leshrac TAKES lands as a cumulative upkeep cost
There is however one card in particular that is quite effective at blowing up lands in mono black without being nearly as mana intensive.. Earthblighter^^
Do note that you WILL need Goblins to throw at the lands in question..
And yes... you read that correctly
"A single dedicated mind can bring about the greatest destruction. That, or goblins-goblins work too."
Almost worth it just for the flavor text^^
I think for the Snarl based lands the enemy color ones would make it into their two color decks then the ally ones. They haven't made several of the newer cycles into enemy color lands so you don't have a varient of the Battle for Zendicar or the Amoncat lands.
A niche case, but my most expensive deck intentionally plays filter lands and bounce lands. Once you have a mana multiplier like Mana Reflection or Nyxbloom Ancient, they net you way more mana as the output is doubled or tripled.
For context to those who did not get the first two jokes
the boulder is a character from Avatar The Last Airbender they are a part of season 2 and help introduce one of the protagonists crew
and the Zamboni is the vehicle that is used to redo the surface of ice rings before things like hockey games and other such events
THE BOULDER IS HURT THAT MR. MORGAN HAS NEVER HEARD OF HIM.
THE BOULDER PREFERS TO TALK ABOUT THE BOULDER IN THE THIRD PERSON.
I bought the fetchlands when the coof started because I got them in MTGO and they felt great. Recently I played with them in paper and soon after sold them.
I do play Temple of the False God because I play Ancient Tomb often and like symmetry. It's been a problem less than 1% of the time I've drawn it, even less now that there's always either Urborg or Yavimaya in play. Both Guildless Commons and Crystal Vein are notably worse.
All my decks start with Reliquary Tower, Scavenger Grounds, Wasteland and Strip Mine.
I know they're not great, but I love the slow fetch lands so much. They're ideal for powering down a deck because they slow your tempo down by a turn or two and that can let you keep playing bombs you love. They're also still legal in Conquest, and given how amazing that format is (normal Fetches are banned in it) - they have a welcome home there for me.
The filter lands definitely aren't worth 20+$ but they are very underappreciated. Being able to make 2 colors and colorless mana isn't super easy to find and they come in untapped
One big change I made recently was swapping out Check Lands for Slow Lands. It's far more likely for me to have 2 lands out than to have specific a basic type out consistently, especially in 3+ color decks.
I also in general play more basics lately because so many effects my opponents are using come with me fetching a basic (Path to Exile, Tempt, Winds of Abandon, etc.) and my local meta has been banking on the prevalence of greedy multi-colored mana bases to not run enough of them.
I imagine for Winding Canyon and Alchemists Refuge they're probably quite potent if you're playing things like Seedborn Muse/Awakening. Also note that it' s effectively a tax of 2 or 3 no matter if you're putting out 1 creature/permanent... or 50.
No one will ever talk me down from using Temple of the False God in most of my decks. The number of times it’s helped me recast my commander far outweighs the number of times it has sat in my hand waiting for 4 other lands to be on my board.
Yeah, one of the worst things to happen to Commander was the lowering of the mana curve. This isn't Modern. Luckily, cEDH came about, and now the Modern players are quarantining themselves off.
It’s interesting seeing these arguments against some of my absolutely favorite budget land cards. As someone who builds almost exclusively budget model bases for his decks, I run quite a few of these in efficient dual lands.
Also, opal palace is one of my favorite utility lands. However, I do only run it in two of my decks, because they can take advantage of the plus one counter it gives.
I love it in Marath.
We appreciate all of the shout outs during this episode! 🧚♀️
Both their jokes were hilarious! It's only better that neither of them understand each other's
Man, nothing can completely make my head spin more than hearing how other people evaluate lands. I swear to god I've never heard two philosophies that are exactly the same. And when you start comparing the priorities of players from different groups it's frequently not even close.
Part of what makes it such an interesting game
I saw the title and knew the Dana not playing basics joke was inevitable. I was not disappointed.
Filter lands are fantastic in any deck that has a lot of double-pip mana costs, especially on their commanders. If you want to cast an Ultimatum or activate a Halo Fountain, I recommend them.
The tapped fetches are interesting, because while I would hardly run them for manafixing nor landfall, they do have their place still. Mainly for fetching the Eldraine lands (Mystic Sanctuary, Witch's Cottage etc) on a budget for decks that really care about their respective effect. This is preferably done in a multicolor deck, which heavily leans towards the color of the respective land, so that the fetch can manafix you or get you the Eldraine land effect later in the game.
I think of Temple of the False God the same way as Maze of Ith. Maze isn't a land, is a removal spell. Same goes for Temple, is not a land but a ramp spell
That's my general approach to it, too, in the (very few) times I put it in a deck.
Alchemist’s refuge is a control powerhouse. Being able to spend your early turns holding up mana and not being greedy with developing your board gets rewarded when later you can develop your board while also not dieing. Heaven forbid you get to a point in which 3 mana is negligable🙄
"Good on the budget" explains why most lands I run are in my decks. Expensive lands are my least favorite part of the game.
That's actually really funny because a proper manabase is the absolute best thing that you can do to up your power level and smooth out the way the deck runs. It's the first thing that I do when deck building. If you can't cast spells on time you are going to have a bad time.
if your play group is cool with proxies, yeah the mana base is huge if you are looking to tune up a deck
@@GrinningFeline I have a really hard time understanding why people choose MTG if they don't actually have the money to play the game or if they can't be okay with playing at a budget. There literally isn't a single person that plays the game that is blissfully unaware of how expensive the game is. Then people whine and whine but they knew what they were getting into. Why not choose a game that is less expensive? A game where literally no one can out spend another person to gain an edge. I don't know, it's the strangest thing.
@@Squee_666_9 There is a place to play a $50 deck and a place to play a $12,000 dollar deck. Unfortunately for me my friends got me hooked on EDH late in life, unlike them pulling alpha duals.
FYI: that kind of thinking is gatekeeping, and unhealthy to the community as a whole. In casual EDH I say buy what you can or want to and proxy for the level of optimization you want. I don’t proxy to pub stomp, I proxy to match my playgroup’s collective power level for a fun time all around. Also I have an addiction to deck building around dumb restrictions for flavor purposes and have 6.5 very different decks all with a cat in the command zone spanning from precon to high power (~7/8? but well below tier 2 cEDH). Without proxies this would be impossible on most budgets.
@@Squee_666_9 doesn’t it seem predatory to you that, to a large degree, the game is pay-to-win? Especially in the context of lands. Maybe it’s just me, but when the prices of the cards you need to play other cards (read: play the game) are prohibitive, I think there’s something wrong. I say this as a person who has played the game for 12 years, and who has put in a ton of cash to build nearly 30 commander decks - so clearly, I’m willing to participate. I just can’t help but make the observation.
And to answer your question, people choose to play magic because it’s simply one of the best games out there!
On a note about the creature lands, I remember running them all the time, and they were pretty good when I first started and didn't have a lot of card draw in my decks, and was a good thing to do when I had nothing else to cast. But i've gotten better about always keeping my hand relatively full, so they usually just went unactivated in like 99% of games that they just got cut at some point.
I like the shadow/reveal lands as budget-friendly options that are sometimes untapped. I *was* also under the impression that they worked together alongside other lands that care about basics or land types, such as the tainted lands, check lands, and tango lands. this makes for a nice little budget-friendly mana base. so I've tried to build with this in mind, which has forced me to run a reasonable number of basics, even in a 3-color deck, which is a good thing.
I recently cut terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds (but not fabled passage. I don't have prismatic vista FYI) from my Inalla deck to make room for upgrades, but the mana base is also built to support the aforementioned cycles of lands that care about basics or specific land types. I thought I had a level-up moment regarding the basic fetches (I'd previously cut Grixis Panorama too), but now that I look at it, I could cut the Tainted Isle and maybe trim a Swamp. to support the Isle I've skewed the mana base to be more black-heavy compared to the color requirements of the deck. but looking at the change in a vacuum, cutting two untapped lands (Swamp, Tainted Isle) for two tapped lands that only make one color (Evolving, Terramorphic) makes the mana base slower. so I've talked myself out of the basic fetches again.
if anyone followed that, I'd be curious on your thoughts on the basic fetches, which until very recently were auto-includes after sol ring, command tower, and arcane signet in 2+ color decks.
For Shorikai, I suggest the Forsaken monument. Gives your pilot +2/+2, adds another colorless to your mana that produces it (on my list I do have quite a number at least), and as a bonus - gains you 2 life per colorless spell you cast (most vehicles are colorless look at that).
I do think the mono colored green cycle lands are great in mono green. If you're running enough draw, and we all know green is great for doing so, getting mana flooded is an issue. That's why I run both them and MDFC lands.
I quite like the old Tainted lands from Torment, dirt cheap, only need a Swamp. So I have grown fond of the duals with basic land types, even if they are always tapped. This leads to a small cascade of looking for ways to fetch these duals.
And since my favourite new creature is Perennial Behemoth, the cheap fetch lands like Terramorphic Expanse are handy.
While in the dragon deck where very few lands come into play tapped I found Darigaaz Caldera perfect.
As I avoid the overprices duals I find quite a lot of cute and useful alternatives all over the place.
Temple of the false god is a good card in certain casual decks. If your ramp is land based and your mana curve tops out at 8 or more, this card is legit. This is a casual card, but commander is a casual format
1 Joey loved the intro reference.
2 opal Palace is basically the old school way of saying "{t}: put a +1/+1 counter on a commander that entered the battlefield this turn, if it were cast" because the mana cost and produced by its ability cover each other. It just seems worse due to 2013 wording
Alchemist's Refuge and Winding Canyons are explicitly for decks that run Seedborn Muse. I don't run Winding Canyons in my Seedborn Muse decks anymore though.
The common one-mana cyclers like lonely sandbar are good in pauper commander but I've never considered playing them in EDH outside of specific synergies. Same goes for cards like cave of temptation and opal palace, or really any other common utility land.
To mention an obvious one: Bojuka Bog is a tapland that only produces one color and lowers your basic count.
I still run it in everything with black including 5 color decks and mono black extraplanar lens decks. Free graveyard hate is just that good. It's often more used like a spell than a land though.
Joey! That was great. I laughed. I laughed very, very hard.
I like the Filter lands primarily for decks where one color is much heavier than the other, or otherwise the particular colors are demanding. For instance, I run an Akiri Fearless Voyager deck that is 60% white and 25% red (and a fair amount of colorless). That, and Akiri's activated ability costing W, I want as few mountains as possible, so being able to turn a mountain and Rugged Prairie into WW is something I like that a normal dual can't do.
Slow fetches are great for budget 3+ color decks that run the Battle lands (Cinder Glade, etc.)
I'm only running the mono-colored cycling land for a mono-red deck. Helping get an extra card type for Delirium or adding additional fodder for Underworld Breach, and getting a card to do so, is helpful, especially when I find I'm petering out in card velocity quite frequently. Is it worth the tempo hit, like Dana says? Probably not. There's more than likely better ways to achieve the same goal, but it's a slight synergy that at least works on paper.
The Shadowmoor filter lands are also great for Jegantha decks (both as companion and as the head commander).
The one time I've ever really got to play Alchemist's Refuge it won me the game. Flashed in a Biovisionary on the end step before my turn, then on my actual turn I Demonstrated a Replication Technique with Adrix and Nev on the battlefield to get four Biovisionary tokens and win. Had I played Biovisionary on my turn and let it sit on the table, it would have no doubt been removed before it got back to my turn.
Regarding Snarls I found that their performance hinges on the curve of your deck. Because you're way more likely to also have other lands in your hand at the start of the game, they play somewhat like the Kaladesh "two or fewer other lands" cycle.
So in my Ghyrson Starn list, which really wants to get pingers out on the first few turns, they feel great! Don't need the mana as much for the midgame turns, so having them be tapped then is ok. Looking at my high cmc Yennett Sphinx tribal deck on the other hand, I hardly have stuff to cast early anyways, so I struggle to benefit off of Snarls.
While it seems quite obvious in hindsight, figuring out why the same type of land felt so good in one and terrible in the other deck, was actually quite a challenge.
The zamboni joke was GOLD!
For me, opal palace is a mid game include for hand commanders that run Ozolith.
When you have the mana that a counter matters, you want it to still matter when the commander is gone.
The temples that tap for 2 colorless if you control 5 or 7 lands have spectacularly allowed me to play my Gargos Vicious Watcher 5-6 times a game from the command zone
I like the Filter Lands, they are particularly good for 2 and 3 color decks where you have a notable amount of cards that require multiple mana of the same specific color. Particularly notable for blue decks that want to run Counterspell and Friends. But yeah, the price point on them is kinda... prohibitive.
I was theorycrafting a 5 color deck today, a fun themed little 5 color deck, which would also be pretty cheap... but the problem is, since I want to keep it cheap, I cannot run any of the good dual lands. In a 5 color deck. So half the lands come into play tapped. Which, when trying it out solitaire, has such an absolutely crushing effect on the earlygame. It would be so much better if I replaced the tricolor lands with the newer, fetchable, cyclable ones, and the regular duals with shocklands. But then the deck would go up from 30 bucks to like 200...
I like the slow fetches, but I don't have many decks where they actually work
They're fine in most two-color landfall decks. My Omnath, Locus of Rage deck ran Mountain Valley as fetchland #10.
I wish that for sessions like this one, you would provide a "decklist" with all the land cards mentioned as no longer played.
Lol 🤣 this intro was fantastic time to start mimeing going down a escalator! It was cool seeing what lands aren't being played! I know in standered I find it tough keeping in basics I only got 3 basics in my deck
The best way to play Dust Bowl is if you WANT specific lands from your deck to get replayed. F.e. I run it in my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis deck that wants to sacrifice its own lands. The first land that almost always gets sacrificed with my Dust Bowl, is my Mystic Sanctuary. That I can later replay for value. And then sacrifice it again. And replay it. See where this is going?
I've got it on my ashaya deck because everything is a land.
Matt is literally an earthbender but doesn't even remember Earth Rumble VI.
Joey, I got your intro and was my favorite one thus far. ❤️
I recently cut tolaria west because always want to cast spells rather than grab a utility land In my riku deck. Two land I'm now think about cutting from decks are alchemist refuge (riku of two reflection) and inventors fair (boros equip)because of how little I use them
I definitely don’t think of myself as an Opal Palace fan, but I run it in my Liesa, Angel of Dusk deck where I can recast Liesa as much as I want, and the counters help me gain life to fund it. Not having a commander tax in mana makes it a lot more viable, but it still doesn’t feel especially strong.
if you're on a budget and in a 2 color deck, the snarl lands perform really well, especially if you're running a lot of basics. I kinda compare them to the fast lands that come in tapped if you have more than 2 lands. You guys have access to all the fetches and all the shocks but the average casual player doesn't.
If you can find someone way to tap/untap opal palace and use all that mana to cast your commander, it will come in with a number of counters on it equal to it's current mana value times how many times you cast it from your command zone. I think I worded that correctly. I'm aware it would take a lot of resources to make it work, but it's a fun stupid thing that would be cool to see if someone could make it work.
I run the filter lands in my Jeskai spellslinger deck, but not really in much else. And that's only because the rituals only make red, but I need a lot of blue, so I run everything I could get my hands on that can turn red into not red
When I make my mana base, I also look at my curve and how competitive the deck is. My curve is important because I can play tapped lands for the turns im usually not going to play anything anyway. Competitiveness is somthing I learned the more untapped lands the better the decks get.
Winding canyons is huge in zombie tribal when you get to the point you can cast zombies from the yard and even better with rooftop storm out. Yes vedalkan orrery would do the job but canyons feels very on theme for tribal.
Filter lands and signet lands are two woefully underappreciated cycles. Signet lands turning mana crypt or sol ring or ancient tomb mana into colored mana has won me a lot of games
Love me the filters, hate the Signet lands. Lands do not make the cut in any deck of mine if they can't produce mana by themselves, that's a rule I've never broken or even bent.
@@TrueTgirl they do produce +1 mana as long as you have at least 1 mana to pour into them. You should never keep a 1 land hand, and unless you have only signet lands in your opening hand, these work. But you aren't alone in your dislike for this cycle, which is fine because it keeps this cycle affordable for me :)
@@andrewpeli9019 I'm not saying I'm logical, just that I'm weirdly particular sometimes lol. And hey that's how I feel with temples and reveal lands like the snarls. Honestly I think it's healthy if we don't all agree on the best land cycles both in a budget way and format diversity/balance way.
@Andrew Peli I’m with you on these! I love the signet lands, especially because I love three color decks and like to be able hit all the colors I need fast. Plus the fact that they are from Odyssey is a big win.
When it comes to the lands with cycling, I prefer the tri-lands the most to fetch and the moni-color ones to cycle.
okay so besides the usual fetchlands/color fixers such as Myriad Landscape, Evolving wilds/terramorphic expanse, the fetchlands I own, I typically use a small list of utility lands in most of my decks. I do avoid stuff like Opal Palace unless I care about my commander's power being larger, and Study hall is good but it's a bit slow. Path of ancestry comes to mind as a usual include, as it still produces colored mana despite entering tapped i'll play it in most multicolored decks. Im also a huge fan of Field of Ruin over Ghost Quarter, the card advantage math works out better in my opinion (you're not down a land and same with the player you hit with the field if they're not you, so if everybody has the same amount of lands you're only down a land compared to two opponents instead of three like with GQ.
Arcane Lighthouse is one that becomes worse and worse, esp cause ward is actually pretty good ^^.
one land that i like is Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. just an additional option to draw cards if your unlucky is insane to get out of your bad situation :D
I have one deck that uses creature lands as a staple. It also has ways to make all lands be creatures and spells that can be used if the lands left untapped aren't utilized during opponents turn(s).
I use the occasional creature land as a backup for if i have no other creature in play sometimes.
Creature lands are useful in destroy all creatures all the F'n time decks. I don't find those decks very fun though TBH.
Absolutely agree. Immediately thought of Hour of Reckoning for Shorikai.
I stopped using Cavern of Souls in my non-tribal decks, no point in using it if you only have 1 or 2 creatures to use it on and 1 of those will most likely be the commander so it generally just sits there as a colourless land most of the time
Personally I actually still like running the monocolor cycling lands but I tend to run only 1 or 2 color decks. It probably is the wrong choice but I do value the ability to pitch for a single mana and "reroll" my draw.
The one dual color creature land I do like is Creeping Tarpit when I equip it with Sword of Feast and Famine. 😂
What's the best way to challenge the stats.
Lol, I start with dual lands then shock then fetch, and then command tower/mana confluence/city of brass/orchard/ then battle bond lands and then maybe utility land, and if theres room maybe 1-2 basics, but rarely make it past 30 lands in a deck ^_^
Two lands that I took out in all of my decks are Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse. Is anyone playing these anymore?
The snarl/shadow lands seem amazing in a budget deck or any deck where you're still running quite a few basics.
I play Shadow Lands in 60 cards format with Basic + lands that have types... Never had a problem with them
I use to play the snarl lands in my standard decks for awhile then tried it in commander and realized how bad those lands could get especially when you're drawing into any basics
Weird, i play the Reveal / Snarl Lands in all my two colored, Non-Cedh Decks. Most of the time they come into play untapped. In my Experience in 90 percent of the time, but maybe i am lucky. I tend to play not many Lands, that enter the Battlefield tapped. Never put them in a three color Deck though.
@@lanevisual well and also there's pretty massive upside with the reveal lands where the consistency of one life or a scry I feel like is not worth never coming in untapped personally
I think temple of the false god is really good in artifact/vehicle based decks like shorikai/greasefang or jan jansen for sure
Amulet of Vigor makes any tap land amazing as long as you get it early game.
the monocolor cycle lands are pretty alright im happy with them like with asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar...
I will never understand the temple of the false gods hate
You guys are nuts if you're going to put signet lands over filter lands. Signet lands can be dead draws earlier on or if you mistap mana. Filter lands come in untapped and can give you a wide swath of mana options. Signets only give you one of each.
I only put signet lands in if I've got nothing better for untapped nonbasics.
Oh, High Market! Gold, 10/10
How do I add a Deck to the list of decks on EDHREC?
As long as your decklist is legal & public (instead of private) on one of the websites we pull data from, you're good to go! No extra input, it'll happen automatically :)
The filter lands are not top tier, but still better than checklands. Especially in red and black where they can convert ritual bursts of single colored mana. If you have effects like that, or need colorless mana, they're really good. Otherwise they're still like checklands but with slight upsides.
I love the cycling lands like Secluded Steppe depending on the color. Probably need some extra deck synergy to make them worth in blue or black but in colors like boros I think they're very helpful. I run 3 cycling lands in my Kemba deck because it helps with flooding and mono white doesn't have a ton of draw so being able to turn a later land draw into something else can be so helpful. They also work well with Sun Titan.
Yaaaayyy Tainted Wood made the cut!
Vedalken Orrery - the most impactful card to do absolutely nothing!
So what im hearing is, i should be running amulet of vigor often.
Too bad it’s like $20 now. Although I suppose one card at that price level is better than a full mana base worth of $8-10 cards.
I think the manlands are SUPER good in decks that want creatures like ninjas or sacrifice
avatar reference lets goooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
Big fan of Survivor's Encampment on a budget. Especially if your deck goes wide.
It's also good in Kalamax to help copy instants without needing to attack.
I never liked the creature lands. But inkmoth I can see still making its way into a deck.
Hard disagree on filter lands, Oddysey ones are basically unplayable if not bound by budget, and Shadowmoor ones are great at fixing colours as pips get more specialised for higher powered cards, especially when things in white and blue often require a lot of pips. If not for cost of allied colour ones I would use them wherever possible if for 2 and 3 colour decks.