Your bike is beautifull , your knowledge apparent . You have a spoken voice that makes your videos easy to watch . I still struggle trying to time my 87 EVO engine , although I ve not had to mess with it but a couple times. Timing lights in the hole do not work too well ,as many of you guys know. LOL .The little scew in clear plastic timing plugs are useless .Has anyone ever had success seeing timing marks thru a smeared oily plastic plug ? I don't know anyone who has . Your static timing method is time tested and works ! The best mothod for timing an evo while running with a TIMIN LIGHT , is to make a mark on the compensator that corresponds with the exact timing mark on your flywheel . That way you can shine the light thru the primary chain adjustment cover and see the mark without having crancase pressure shootin oil into your eye balls and everywhere else . I say the guy from S and S Cycle who does the videos on you tube , do that when timing an evo he had installed a Hi n-4 Ignition on . Hoep it helps someone out.
Thank you. Devising a way to correspond with the flywheel mark is basically it. Marking the compensator or marking the alternator rotor are good methods. Of course, the next time they are r&r'd, they'll have to be marked again. There are also electronic ignitions that handle all of this for you too. The deal is, to find what works for you and your bike. Doing the research you're doing is extremely informative. Thank you for your input.
Thank you Mike for another excellent video. This really helped me get the timing dialed in on my 61 FL. I think one of the most important things that you try to convey is it might not be perfect the first time so just keep after it, you learn a little each time you do it.
Thanks again Mike. By the way just picked up another project. Haven't finished the 68 from last year. Picked up a 65 that hasn't been cranked in 40 plus years. Can't wait to get her on the road.
I love it! That's the goal! '67 is one of the greatest units ever. Generator shovelhead, second year, all problems solved, smooth motor, last year of the mousetrap, ratchet lid transmission, on and on. About as good as it gets.
Ah wha a top bloke! Started my pan shovel today for the first time, its not quite right on the timing, but after watching this I now know how to get it perfect tomorrow.
I first learned this in Sturgis in 1997 or 99. when the points broke on my old 50 chopper fortunately I was with a friend that told me to set the points with a match pack cover and he said to set the timing mark back to the right side of the view hole follow the same procedure as you all the way. the only difference was that 1/4 inch earlier on the fly wheel. It worked and I have always viewed things like that as just another adventure since. Of course I have learned to carry a better selection of tools. That helps guaranties the end to be a happy adventure.
You bet. Check an old service manual and you'll see the picture of the old timing mark placement in the window. Matchbook was always close. Ask a kid for a matchbook today...Huh?
Thanks Mike, I forgot how much "FUN" Ignition POINTS were & I am old enough to REMEMBER Dual Point MALLORY Distributors ! COOP ..........................................
Points are a part of tuning. Dual points are a pain. Early Ford flathead V8's all had dual points. Harley Big twins from about 60-64 had dual points. Using a dwell meter to set points was high class. Nowdays, my only points are in my Knuckle, my Pan and the mag I'm gonna use on my Flathead Harley. Some things never change. We just get older.
I like the points on top of the motor better than in the cone type points. I have a 72 FLH that is running too rich and fouling the plugs some. It has a Bendex fixed jet carburetor on it. I lived in Florida fir 35 years and I did not have this issue there at sea level. I moved to Alabama and now I am running rich. I will rebuild the carb I have a kit. The last time I rebuilt the carb was in the mid 90's Would poor timing make it run rich. It starts on the first kick and runs fine so the timing seems good. I hope it is not an oil issue it only has 18.000 on a total over hauled engine and it has had good a maintenance with regular oil changes using only Harley oil.
You didn't say how high the altitude is where you live now. I lived at sea level for many years. And I thought I was a great tuner. Well, I moved way inland. About 2700 feet above sea level. Oh yah, there's no moisture in the air here either. Let's see now, high altitude and no air. Very humbling experience. It took a while to adjust my thinking and habits. A fixed jet Bendix is not hard to change. You can install an adjustable main jet kit, but that is a very rough adjustment. There are interchangeable main jets available. Tedd Cycle (V-Twin) still carries the jets in their catalog. If that 74" cone motor starts so easy with a kickstarter, you might be running a little retarded, but you get my vote as a competent tuner.
I'm 62 yrs old, I've been riding shovels since 1973, no bull, my older brother bought a new FLH in 73 and he let me ride it as a 16 yr old. Bought my 69 FLH in 1980, still riding it. Nobody cares about my story, I get that. My point is...guys like you have disappeared from my area, eastern PA. Keep it up for the next generation and thank you.
Well I've told you in the past I enjoy your videos and I do. This one is a video which helped me as I have a 68 shovel head I'm working on right now, putting a new clutch in. I wanted to put in new points, etc. and had gotten a little 'dim' on the subject. This was a big help. Thanks for what you do, I appreciate you.
Thank god for your channel that’s all I gotta say!! I’m a novice when it comes to doing all the engine work and wiring for my 1986 Harley FXSTC Softail. I know small engine repair so that helps understanding engines. Nobody wants to work on this Vintage of a Harley. Not Boston Harley Davidson. Not custom shops in Massachusetts. Parts are very very hard to find. I got the bike to have a hobbie that I much needed. That being said this channel is No bullshit no wasting time on instructions. Most of all real deal host. Not somebody trying to be funny or witty when they’re not. #oldschoololdtimersrule!
i have a 62 Ex Mexican cop bike and cant find any reference to using the manual advance , any pointers / help be muchly appreciated . you have a fantastic channel , great to see a real bike master at work thanks again
I'm glad it helped you. You probably know, unless it's been changed, the '63 came with a dual-point, dual-coil, system. Good idea and good design, for the time. However, after setting them up (using front and rear timing marks on the left flywheel, I normally change them over to a single point, single coil system. The reason being that I find it difficult to keep both sets of points adjusted properly at the same time. And when converting to 12 volts, only need to buy 1 coil. Just my way of dealing with it, but even though it's not stock, much easier to maintain. I'm really glad the video was useful to you.
Hi Mike: I know its a lot to remember, when you are trying to give people the Wisdom of Motorcycles. I am shore you know this, plugs tell you everything about the motors state of health. You could do a whole program on Plugs, like what each colour means and how plugs can whether your mixture is too rich or too weak. Being old school, we know these things. Anyway; I'm not going to steal your Thunder on PLUGS.
I really appreciate that. It does still work, kinda. With today's fuel, it ain't quite like it used to be. When is the last time you saw that "light chocolate brown" on your plugs or even in your pipes? About all we get any more is "that's way too dark" or "there's nuthin' on that plug." The manufacturers want you to buy a sparkplug flashlight and read the color on the ring way up inside the plug where the insulator meets the outer body. You don't steal my thunder. I appreciate what you have to say.
When I was 18 I bought my first basket case, thought I knew it all, my older brother was really good with motors,he would let me put it all together then say you forgot this,ahh had to tear her back down, wile he snickered, cursed him then love him now, hey I didn't make that mistake again, good teacher.
Hi Mike your a great teacher and I am Australian and understand you perfectly I’ve inherited a 1979 FLH in parts one of the problems I’m having now the original points have been replaced by Joe Hunt side mounted magneto and I can’t find anywhere except for the limited information provided by Joe Hunt on how to reinstall this and do the timing If you can help it would be much appreciated
Thank you. Did you contact Joe Hunt Magnetos directly? They are certainly still in business, even though "Joe Senior" passed many years ago. He personally built me a mag back in about 1978. Great guy building world class equipment. Sportster service manuals that deal with XLCH Sportsters from 1959 to 1969 explain magnetos pretty well. To begin with, always remember, "Never set your sparkplug gap wider than .018-.019." That will keep you out of serious trouble. Recheck them regularly. Now, if everything is good, it's a matter of timing. If the magneto is not functioning, I would contact Joe Hunt Magnetos. I beieve they are in Rancho Cordova California.
Thanks Mike magneto is working fine it’s just I’m not 100% sure how to install it and get the timing right ringing America is not really an option as you really need something down on paper or video there site is very vague on installation
I set time by shoving a paper towel down the spark plug hole, turn the motor til it pops. You are now at or very close to or at tdc. Timing mark would be in very very close proximity or at "the window". Thanks Mike.
I've mostly used my finger in the plug hole. When you turn the engine, compression will push past your finger. Compression only occurs on the firing stroke.
I also put my test light clip on the timer terminal post, place the light where I can see it from the left side, then rotate the engine so that the light comes on just when the flywheel mark arrives at the right spot. I ground the probe end of the test light with a jumper wire. Thanks for the instructive video.
I have a '52 FL and rather than use the rear wheel, I remove the derby cover and with a long screw driver through the fingers. shift the line about easily while parked on the side stand. (trans in neutral)
Hi Mike, I’m sooo glad to see this instruction!! Is there any reason to put gear four to get timing adjusted? Can it be done by putting it at first gear instead? Appreciate your response.
The best video on Timing I have seen, Im just awaiting a new curcuit breaker( Christmas /New Year you name it, all shops are closed) Got same as you a Knuckle -47, but I have a auto ditributor, and no mark on the cam. As I understand with an original distributor, you set the point gap at the narrow part of the cam, is that correct? Greatful for tips Brgds Lars
Yes. Front cylinder on compression stroke, small lobe on circuit breaker cam, timing mark on flywheel in proper position in window. Points just starting to open (just barely) with circuit breaker fully advanced (holding it advanced if automatic.
I don't have one around. I do find them maddening, however. To set them up, time consuming, but not too difficult. I set them by the book (they were used from 61-64, I don't remember for sure). Hard to keep them set properly. I normally replace that setup with single points and coil at the same time I convert to twelve volts. The service manual covers it real well, although a dwell meter should be the way to go.
@@pacificmike9501 I have it set up like the service manual says, using a test light, but I have heard when using a dwell, you can really dial them in. I’ve not used a dwell before and there is no speck in the book for it either. Thank for the reply Mr Mike.. keep the chrome side up, and ride on.
We used dwell meters on cars a bunch in the old days. If you set your bike up by the book, you'll be fine. But, you'd really like single points and a good 12 volt system with a really nice hot 12 volt coil.
Hello Mike. you've made some great detailed videos for points adjustment. I have two generator shovels with auto advance distributors (factory stock). Perhaps some time you could cover the flyweights, springs and lubrication of them. Can you advise what you use to lubricate the pivot points on the flyweights on the base? Also, can you advise if you know of a company that sells stronger tensioned flyweight springs for '65 pan and '66-'69 shovels? I know there are three different tensioned springs available for '70 and up, but I never see anything for early models. Thank you.
Hi Mike, hopefully you are surviving the heat! When timing with a timing light for '65 - '69 FLH do you try to get the engine idling around 2000rpm? Do you have an idea of the rpm needed to get the flyweights to move the distributor into full advance on these bikes? I think I found in one of the manuals 2000rpm was the magic number to time 1970 and up FLH's, but oddly I could not find definitive numbers for '65 - '69.
Thankyou for this video,, I have a late model 1961 fl, dual points,, is it the same procedure with front cylinder, pushrods down, ign on, with grounded testing light ?
Yes, it's all the same. There is a very lengthy but complete, explanation in the HD 59-69 service manual. One set of points is timed to the Front cylinder mark on the flywheel and the rear cylinder set of points time to the rear mark. It will seem very involved and it takes a bit of time. Once you understand it, it's not too bad. Keeping both sets of points timed exactly right is a kind of a pain. I usually change them over to single points and time off of the front cyl. timing mark.
@@pacificmike9501 I’ve got an original bike with the advance- retard on the left grip- when I set the timing should that cable be disconnected from the circuit breaker?.. and should I move the bracket out of the way so it’s easier to loosen nut to change timing.. Thankyou
It looks like you like to set the timing mark almost in the middle of the window compared to how it’s shown in the manual (far right side of the window). Did I see that correctly? BTW, your videos are extremely helpful!
It depends on the model. The placement differs a little. This is one of the reasons I recommend using a "model specific" genuine Harley service manual. Harley's own specification should be your starting point. When you're playing with other cams, ignitions, compression ratios, it all plays a part. But, that staring point is generally pretty close.
Thank you.....very comprehensive video. Just to confirm, the goal is to have the points 'open' when the Cylinder #1 is at TDC, and the distributer (timer) is fully advanced?
This might sound like a dumb question, but if the old V-Twins ran a wasted-spark ignition system, why does the distributor have two lobes? Could they not just gear it so that it fires on one lobe? My second stupid question is why is the front distributor lobe narrow, and the rear cylinder lobe wide?
@@jjlad5037 You cant run 1 lobe because it is not a 180 degree engine. To do that both cylinders would have to be at tdc at the same time. One firing and the other at overlap on exhaust/intake. The lobe difference is because the cylinders have different timing specs. Thats why you set front cylinder to the narrow lobe if memory serves and the fat lobe is for rear. If you set front to the timing marks on the flywheel, then the rear will be correct. Atleast that was for my last two shovels with points in the cam cover. And if i remember correctly my pan, iron sportsters, and wla were the same even though some had distributors the points and lobes were the same. Someone will correct me if i have fat and narrow lobes reversed but that is why the different lobes. Different timing front vs rear.
Hey Mike. I have a 1979 FXS shovelhead (74 cubic inch) and I am trying to replace the HI-4N electronic ignition on it. Should i be setting the new ignition while the Line or the Dot is in the inspection hole? I am confused on which one is TDC and which one is the advance mark for 1979 shovelheads. Thanks!
The dot is TDC on the front cylinder. The line is the advanced timing mark. Don't forget to position the valves so the no. one cylinder is on its compression stroke.
so the alternative method would be you have a timing light, and with the engine running, you could aim your timing light at the mark on the other side and then move your distributor so that you see the mark centered in the window correct? but i like your method as you can do it with the engine off and its nice and quiet :)
Thank you. Ideally, a timing light would be the way to go. But, it's a very difficult process at best on the old engines. These are not my ideas. This is the way it is done. Pay attention to the manual as to the actual position of the mark in the timing hole. Then, you can shift it slightly to find the optimum position for the timing of your bike's ignition system.
Hello Mike, I am working on a '64 DuoGlide with stock 6v system and dual points. Front cylinder gap set to .022 (as per service manual) and timing is set as per manual as well. When working on the rear timing, gap on the RC points needed to be set to .016 so timing mark would align properly. .006 seems to be a pretty wide spread. In the service manual for '70 - '78 Shovelhead it notes that in this single point system the point gap may vary between fc/rc by a range of .004. Using this to get a frame of reference for what an acceptable rage for the difference in gap between the two. Using the comparison between the two to get a feel for weather .006 is OK or not. I am thinking I have to get to the bottom of the .006 difference. your input appreciated.
Just keep on going. Your logic is good, butgetting those points angled to the point of matching the gaps is quite difficult. I normally change them to single points for easier tuning. On the 70 and later, you can match the openings quite easily by tapping on the through bolt that the points cam runs on. You can match those exactly. You just keep rotating the engine and tapping that bolt until they match. The dual points? not that easy. You'll get there, just very time consuming. It will however, run very smoothly, once you get them to match. Same thing on the 70 and later with single points. These were not some of Harley's brightest moments.
@@pacificmike9501 thanks. I think I can get them to match by setting the front cylinder to .019 and then I will assume that the rear will move out by .003, and end up at the same thing, 019. That's my thinking on it anyway. And also the recommendation of a close friend who does a lot of this work as well. Wanted to confirm that that is what you meant versus trying to get them both to . 022. That I would be scratching my head a bit longer over, up to and including taking the timer out and rebuilding that to make sure I don't have any gaps or glitches in there. So looking for confirmation, setting them both to the same. As in both at .019. Thanks. Appreciate your feedback.
Thank you. The original was a 6 volt cutout relay mounted to the case. There is however, a 12 volt generator with a solid state regulator mounted to the left end of it.
Why not electronic ignition Mike? Are u just trying to Stickney original stock because if so I get that. Ibe got a bone stock 1 family owned 65 SS Impala 409 that I took the points out of and installed a cool little product called pertronix electronic ignition, fits right in ola e of the old points and u woukd never know. Can u not get a product like that for a motorcycle?
I really get a lot of service out of my original "point type" ignition. However, there is a gentleman (I can't remember his company name) that makes just such a unit as you describe.
Mike, Im about to resurect a Pan with magneto. Could you do a points video to refresh my brain? I think I remember most of it but a refresher would be nice. Thx, Great series by the way.
I'll get around to a magneto when I put the project bike together. Back in the day, when I first messed with them, I used the info from an early Sportster manual. XLCH Sporters ('59-'69) all had mags. This information is perfect.
Harley Davidson refers to it as a "clutch booster assembly." It is an assembly comprised of a spring and bellcrank which (by using leverage and rotation) makes the clutch lever much easier to operate and requires much less effort to hold the lever in to keep the clutch disengaged at a stoplight. This is a whole assembly that I'm sure was quite expensive to produce. Today they do it quite easily with little parts and a diaphragm clutch spring. People had a hard time learning to adjust them, but believe me, when they're adjusted properly, they are awesome.
Hi Mike, hopefully you are surviving the heat! When timing with a timing light for '65 - '69 FLH do you try to get the engine idling around 2000rpm? Do you have an idea of the rpm needed to get the flyweights to move the distributor into full advance on these bikes? I think I found in one of the manuals 2000rpm was the magic number to time 1970 and up FLH's, but oddly I could not find definitive numbers for '65 - '69.
Is the timing mark (67' single point automatic adv) supposed to be in the middle of the window or to the right side just in view? (have a manual on order)
The answer to your question is the center of the window.. Don't forget: "Circuit breaker cam must be fully advanced clockwise against stop when checking alignment of mark with fiber cam follower." That should do it. It's the same for '65-'69 big twin distributors, which are all automatic advancing units.
It's just that they don't color up like they used too. Then, the manufacturers wants you to read the plug way deep inside where there"s a flat ring where the insulator and the outer casing go together. It's a skinny little flat surface. They sell little flashlights with magnifiers on them so you can see inside the plug. About all I can tell about a plug any more is if the condition is real obvious like,"wow, there's nothing on it." or "That plug is dark." Then there"s the usual, "They sure don't match," indicationg a vacuum leak. I think the fuel is tough to read and I'd like to think we build our motors better. Just ain't like it used to be. Nowdays, I'm pleased to have just a little color, my old bikes, a little more color than the newer stuff.
Mike I have a 1983 fxr shovel stroker 98". S&S internal fly wheels, crank & jugs. What mark should I look for through the timing hole to make sure its top dead center
Hey Mike I'm having some real trouble getting this 52 pan ive been working on to start easy any I just did the timing how you did, except for I have an auto advance distributor, any suggestions? It's got points and a super e carb.
Be sure you set your advance timing with the dist cam held in the advance position. I know that's a good carburetor, but, there's an enrichener and not a choke. Sometimes it takes more prime kicks without a choke plate.
Great video Mike. Thank you. I have a 1959 Panhead and the distributor is too tight, some times it is difficult to retard the spark with the grip. How can I fix that?. Thank you in advance. Appreciate your response.
Well, it's hanging up somewhere. The grip should be removed and the internals lubed with grease occasionally. The cable should be disassembled and lubed. The distributor (circuit breaker) should be taken apart and lubed too. This is normal maintenance. The bike is over sixty years old. I'll bet that stuff needs attention. It's all in your service manual.
Plus, my rear wheel is tight as hell against the trans, I can barely spin it in second gear to even try to get it in fourth. Brake isn’t dragging and clutch is fine on adjustment. Ideas?
@@pacificmike9501 no, not a fat tire rubbing or the chain too tight, 3/4” deflection at center of run. No dragging when spun in neutral. I’ll keep looking though. Thank you sir!
Hello Mike, Question unrelated to THIS video ... Last weekend I made a stop into my local Harley-Davidson DEALERSHIP ( on 12/19/2020) not noticing anything different - I made my way back to my favorite section of the STORE ( the PARTS DEPARTMENT) & asked - what happened to all the NEW MOTORCYCLES ? There were generally FIFTY (50) New bikes displayed ... now there might have been SEVEN (7) bikes on the entire showroom floor Ken, the Parts Manager, looked at me somberly & simply stated: "We are no longer a H-D Dealership" !!! ( I thought he was pulling my leg & glanced at another customer standing near bye & he was slowly shaking his head - in agreement) INDIANA lost over 35 Harley-Davidson DEALERSHIPS as of 12/01/2020 /// H-D CORPORATION simply REVOKED their FRANCHISES !!! Simply stated - if a FRANCHISE did NOT sell at least 300 NEW H-D Motorcycles each year = they were DIS-Enfranchised ! Did this happen in your STATE too ? CURIOUS ... My "old" dealership is now simply known as "SHADE CYCLES" after the owners last name ,,, COOP ............................................
If you're on full advance, it's most likely going to kick you harder than you kicked the starter pedal. You need a service manual. Setting the magneto is in the book. It is very touchy and exacting. Once you get it right, it will work great. Plugs and points must be set according to the service manual. That means according to the book on a magneto equipped XLCH.
Is the timing mark supposed to be directly in the center on the window or slightly right or left? Because my manual is showing that the timing mark on my FLH should be to the right of the window. Im not sure what u did i couldnt see the timing mark in the video.
Do what your service manual (correct position of the mark in the window for your year and model) says. This is with the ignition fully advanced and your front piston on the compression stroke. The only difference could be, if your ignition system is an aftermarket unit, follow their specific instructions.
Ya know Mike, Im trying to do my 75' shovel and these videos are misguiding on the timing mark, I have the Line AND the punch mark, Which one is it?? Ive watched several videos and they are all contradicting each other.... .. Im replacing the points/condensor, and wanna make sure its right, Thanks in advance,
Heck, Mike, I was waiting for you to whip out a rolling paper (i wonder how many folks know what i'm talking about ^) On my circuit breaker housing there's a timing mark that should align close to the outside edge of the strap the lock nut tightens down. Are you familiar with that?
Sure, it is so, so that you can rotate the housing to give yourself the adjustment you require. And, I've become so civilized that I use a feeler gauge. Out on the road, under a tree, that's something a little different. Actually, back in the day, a matchbook cover was real close on point settings.
I recently bought a 38 UL and started it however the front cylinder did not fire. Only the rear cylinder fired. Is this due to timing? It appears to have spark for both cylinders.
Congratulations! Fun bike. I have a '40 Flathead 80 that will come up soon. Before trying to start it. I suggest you check and make sure the valves are operating. Open the lifter covers and make sure the valves are opening and closing. Set the proper clearance on those valves (providing they are operating). Then, set points and timing. If everything checks out, (you have spark at the right time, the valves are set properly and functioning, the plugs are clean enough to fire, and you have fuel), she should, at least, talk to you. If the valves are seized, stop, and remove the cylinder. If the valves are set too tight, no compression. Refer to your book for proper settings. Let me know how it goes, just proceed with caution. That's a great motor, torque monster, way cool.
Thanks for the info Mike ,one thing I don't get though , my panhead manual 1948 to 1965 says to set the points to .022 , not .020 . Also do you know if my 1948EL timing procedure is the same on the EL as it is on the FL motors . MY manual doesn't mention the EL motor at all when adjusting the timing .
.020 on Knuckles, .022 on Pans. I forget. EL and FL time the same. Unless everything is bone stock and stock low compression, you'll be playing around with degrees and things to get your motor running the way YOU want it to. Have fun.
Swiss army knife and a matchbook. My points closed up on a ride those two items got her running. My buddy on his Kawasaki shook his head in disbelief..
@@pacificmike9501Welcome. Great. Just got my 58 pan started after having it sit for a couple years. Followed your procedures. Seems the timing is not as critical as your fine-tuning suggests as it's just going to be changed while running anyway, after starting. Just to Get it in range? ruclips.net/video/gUmniRyfNuM/видео.html Idle didn't come down so it shut rr down. Will worry about that next.
Hi Mike. On a cone shovel motor, how do you make an adjustment to the cam to get the large and small lobe to open the points equally within the proper gap specs? In other words, my small lobe is .020 and my large is .017 and I want it opened up some. I hope this makes sense, buddy. Thank you!
Something I figured out for myself about 35 years ago. Your bike will now idle prettier than anyone around. The long skinny bolt that holds it all together, is so skinny and long, that it can be bent, just a little. Okay, plugs out, now setting points and rotating engine. One lobe gives me a big gap and the other a small one. Not to worry. Take a small metal hammer. I think mine is about a two ounce. Smack the bolt lightly from the side with the smallest gap. Now check both gaps and repeat until you get them even. Set it at the desired gap (memory says .018). Check again and again until you get it. Be very gentle with the little hammer on the side of the bolt head. This is a cone motor, with points ignition, fact.
Mike, thank you so much for taking time to answer this question. I can't wait to give it shot. The bike starts and runs well, but anything I can do to refine it even more is great for peace of mind. Anthony
Start setting it up all over again and check each thing. Gaps, plugs and points, battery voltage, voltage going in to coil, ignition timing, fuel flow to carburetor, and is the float bowl filling up. Just go step by step all the way through it. You'll get there.
@@pacificmike9501 Yea I'm not sure where to time it, I did the round as tdc but with this S & S super E it doesn't. wanna run unless the enricher knob is pulled up. IDK if thats a timing issue or the Carb since I tore it apart to clean it out
Look at your service manual. They describe the location of the advance timing mark. I'll bet it's there (7/16" before TDC on the front cylinder compression stroke).
Not at the moment. Don't have a centrifugal advance distributor around Good idea though I'll have one of my friends bring one ove once it's running. We will have a mag coming up in the future.
Good video but where are the serial numbers on your bike? I use the plastic plug and it has to be very close to the flywheel without touching it. I then have to hold the timing light at an angle to the side of the plug. Done it this way many times. If the plug gets scratched you can touch it up on the buffing wheel.
Mike my names Nathan Morgan I'm from fayetteville Arkansas I have a 95 heritage Softail Springer built by American street dreams I now live down in Texas and my bike has a 38mm Edelbrock Quicksilver carburetor my dad had it sitting for about five years I finally brought it home got it running now it's running super rich fouling out the plugs could u give me any pointers by any chance brother
You're probably looking at the right place. I have not even seen those carburetors in years. They were distributed by Edelbrock, mostly through (maybe even "exclusively,'" not sure) Rivera Engineering. I doubt, if you're careful, that you will require parts to disassemble and clean it out real well. Also, clean out the tank and be sure you're running a clean fuel filter. Be sure you're running a clean air filter. If the air filter is real dirty, the carb will run way too rich.
HI Mike , I have a Generator shovel set up.The barrels and heads have been installed on a 1954 case/bottom end by owner at some point in the past. The flywheel only has a line on it and the piston is not at TDC when timing line is at middle of timing hole so I believe this would be the 35 deg BTDC mark ( or full advance).There is a mechanical advance distributor installed. I am not sure how best to set the timing of distributor breaker cam at the points. My idea is set 35 deg BTDC line in timing hole , turn points breaker cam to full advance ( flyweights fully extended) and the points should just start to open???? Do you have some guidance for me please? Your help is greatly appreciated.
I think you mean "automatic advance distributor." If so, advance the breaker cam to set the timing with the timing mark in the window. If it is a "manual advance distributor," advance it all the way to set it with the "advance timing mark" in the window. Check your 1959-1969 service manual for the position of the mark in the window. You can adjust this slightly for your own fine tuning.
@@pacificmike9501 Yes the distributor uses flyweights to advance the timing at speed. Are these distributors meant to be advanced by hand after being started? I thought that if there were flyweights then there was no need to change timing by hand. Do you know if there is only one mark on the flywheel for full advance (I only see one line and it is well before TDC) I can confirm this with the heads off.
Mike: Brought my 56 back up after a decade down, initially because of a bad trans. All back together, several successful/40 miles each test runs. But she’s running rich as hell, adjust the super e back and forth not solving it. I know my valves are set right /perfect, but I’m going to recheck timing from scratch anyway. Too much oil being swept up by the flywheel preventing easy visual for when the timing mark comes up. Aftermarket oil pump, if I drain the horseshoe, then disconnect the lower feed oil line from the tank, to use it as a drain line to drain the cases (as much as it may), is there going to be a check valve in the oil pump that will prevent this tactic anyway?
You may have a vacuum leak at the manifold. Check your carburetor out as per S&S instruction sheet. If you don't have one, it is online under "SSCycle."
Drain your oil out of the tank. The plug is on the bottom of the tank, on the right side. If too much oil is feeding, it's probably not returning from the engine to the tank. Better look into the oil pump. If you need to drain the crankcase, the plug is on the left side, below the inner primary cover. Be gentle with it. Be sure not to overfill the system. There has to be air in the top of the tank.
@@pacificmike9501 thanks, boss. I have a little too much oil in the tank, not much, but I’ll suck some out. I checked upon initial start up to make sure the pump was not cavitating and had return flow, I have a return current in the tank. Since the backfiring through the carb is new, I checked the alignment of the carb spacer more carefully, I think you’re right (as usual... only one reason why we love ya!) I’ll reattach it in the am and report back. You rock boss. Like one guy said about watching your videos... it is church for some of us. Very zen. I’ll watch videos about stuff I’ll never even deal with... they’re just that relaxing.
Pretty involved. It's explained very well in the HD 1959-1969 FL Service Manual. Normally, unless someone really wants to preserve that system, I change over to the earlier (single points, single coil) system. It's much easier to maintain and, in practice, gives a more "consistent" tune. I don't mean to knock it. But, when in the middle of nowhere, I really prefer simplicity. Whenever I tune one of those, they run beautifully, but they seem to require more maintenance to hold both sets of points to play well with each other.
With the flywheel timing mark in the right place and the points cam tiiming mark in the right place , the ignition should spark at the points lighting the test light.
Just had to say great video! First time watching your channel and yes i did subscribe. I have a 75 FLH with a 93" all S&S style shovel. It came with an electronic distributor but I'm thinking of switching it to points since i don't have everything i need to make it work and the parts to do so are expensive. Not sure whether to go single fire or dual as well as whether to go single or dual on the points. Just looking to build a reliable daily rider. Nothing more. Any help at all would be much appreciated. If your answers are to long for here i can provide my email address. Thank you sir and keep up the great work!
I hate to say it, but dual points are awful! Getting them to sync properly and stay that way is somewhat maddening. A 93" Shovelhead is a serious motor. Be careful in your decisions and gear it very high. It has the torque to pull tall gears and it will keep it at low rpm's. When you can afford it, and I don't usually plug products, Dynatek is the answer.
On my 1966 shovelhead when the line is dead center in the window my intake valve has light pressure on it you cannot turn the pushrod. Should I loosen the pushrod so both valves are completely closed in that position?
Turn the engine over by hand with the sparkplugs out. When the intake drops, keep going until it has gone down as far as it is going to. Now adjust it. I'm assuming you have solid lifters. If you do, you should be able to turn the pushrod with your fingers. The limne on the flywheel is your advance timing mark, not TDC. Those marks are for timing ignition, not adjusting valves.
@@pacificmike9501 When my rear exhaust push rod is fully extended my front cylinder exhaust push rod is loose and vice verse. When my rear intake pushrod is fully extended my front intake push rod is loose and vice verse At no point on the front cylinder is the intake and the exhaust loose for me to do timing. I’m trying to understand if I’m timed correctly at top dead center and not on overlap. The bike is running fine just a question. 1966 shovelhead
Question Mike, tuning up my 58 FL, I wanted to check spark on the plugs, turning the engine over I notice that both plugs sparked at the same time, once at the timing mark on distributor then 180 degrees off for rear cylinder, is it normal that both plugs spark at the same time ?
Hi Mike, appreciate the instruction vid! Just wanted to let you know that the original instruction (per manual and Palmers restoration book) for single points early big twin is to set the timing with the line on the flywheel on the right side of the window and not the center. Unclear how close it should be to the right side (I've read 1/16th" and 1/8th") Also for Dale Marcus. So my question for you Mike is how did you get to setting it in the center? According to the manual thats retarding the timing. Are you running unleaded fuel without ethanol? Also the cam that is in the bike is important of course. Was it running hot at more advance? Just trying to figure it out for my own bike. Thanks in advance for a reply.
Make sure you're looking at the right manual for your bike. The location of the advance mark on your flywheel should appear in the window where it is supposed to according to your size and model, automatic or manual advance. You start out with the factory recommendation, then "minor" adjustment from there. I don't know what your bike is. But, there's a picture of that window in the right book.
@@pacificmike9501 Hi Mike, I own a '50 pan that I've completely rebuild from the crankcases up, yes got the service manual and it describes the timing as I stated above. Palmer just mentioned timing for OHV's 1936> and describes it the same as the service manual for the pans. Therefore I assume that knuck timing is the same as pan timing. I find it interesting that your timing is that much retarded compared to the service manual for pans. I am not yet in the ballpark of being completely confident about the timing position of my flywheel mark and thus seek info on what leads you to advance or retard the timing. What do you take in to account when tuning? Personally I have never heard an engine "ping" on too much advance so got no reference for that. Thanks for getting back to me so far. Best regards, Tristan.
Thank you 5 years later and still the best video I found on this thank you
Glad it helped!
Absolute legend and a gentleman to boot always very informative and kind to the amateur motorcycle mechanic a great teacher thanks again pacific mike
Thank you kindly
Finally a good video on how to set the timing
Thank you. It's rewarding to know that it helped you.
Your bike is beautifull , your knowledge apparent . You have a spoken voice that makes your videos easy to watch . I still struggle trying to time my 87 EVO engine , although I ve not had to mess with it but a couple times. Timing lights in the hole do not work too well ,as many of you guys know. LOL .The little scew in clear plastic timing plugs are useless .Has anyone ever had success seeing timing marks thru a smeared oily plastic plug ? I don't know anyone who has . Your static timing method is time tested and works ! The best mothod for timing an evo while running with a TIMIN LIGHT , is to make a mark on the compensator that corresponds with the exact timing mark on your flywheel . That way you can shine the light thru the primary chain adjustment cover and see the mark without having crancase pressure shootin oil into your eye balls and everywhere else . I say the guy from S and S Cycle who does the videos on you tube , do that when timing an evo he had installed a Hi n-4 Ignition on . Hoep it helps someone out.
Thank you. Devising a way to correspond with the flywheel mark is basically it. Marking the compensator or marking the alternator rotor are good methods. Of course, the next time they are r&r'd, they'll have to be marked again. There are also electronic ignitions that handle all of this for you too. The deal is, to find what works for you and your bike. Doing the research you're doing is extremely informative. Thank you for your input.
Thank you Mike for another excellent video. This really helped me get the timing dialed in on my 61 FL. I think one of the most important things that you try to convey is it might not be perfect the first time so just keep after it, you learn a little each time you do it.
Exactly, thank you.
Thanks! This type of information is getting lost with the old timers. I really appreciate the video.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks again Mike. By the way just picked up another project. Haven't finished the 68 from last year. Picked up a 65 that hasn't been cranked in 40 plus years. Can't wait to get her on the road.
That is awesome!
Great video Mike. Worked great on my 67 genny. Running strong. Keep em coming. Thanks.
I love it! That's the goal! '67 is one of the greatest units ever. Generator shovelhead, second year, all problems solved, smooth motor, last year of the mousetrap, ratchet lid transmission, on and on. About as good as it gets.
Ah wha a top bloke! Started my pan shovel today for the first time, its not quite right on the timing, but after watching this I now know how to get it perfect tomorrow.
Cool
I first learned this in Sturgis in 1997 or 99. when the points broke on my old 50 chopper fortunately I was with a friend that told me to set the points with a match pack cover and he said to set the timing mark back to the right side of the view hole follow the same procedure as you all the way. the only difference was that 1/4 inch earlier on the fly wheel. It worked and I have always viewed things like that as just another adventure since. Of course I have learned to carry a better selection of tools. That helps guaranties the end to be a happy adventure.
Oh, there was a bike shop almost right across the street. Thanks again Mike and Mike
You bet. Check an old service manual and you'll see the picture of the old timing mark placement in the window. Matchbook was always close. Ask a kid for a matchbook today...Huh?
Excellent. Thank you. This info never ages.👊 Your a legend!
Nah, just an old guy who loves this stuff. Glad you like it too.
Thanks Mike,
I forgot how much "FUN" Ignition POINTS were
& I am old enough to REMEMBER Dual Point MALLORY Distributors !
COOP
..........................................
Points are a part of tuning. Dual points are a pain. Early Ford flathead V8's all had dual points. Harley Big twins from about 60-64 had dual points. Using a dwell meter to set points was high class. Nowdays, my only points are in my Knuckle, my Pan and the mag I'm gonna use on my Flathead Harley. Some things never change. We just get older.
Mike I really like the way you explain the proccess,another great video.Thankyou.
Thank you.
Few guys know the critical importance of this subject Mike ! And when all you have is a kicker, you best watch this and learn !!!
Not a bad idea.
I like the points on top of the motor better than in the cone type points. I have a 72 FLH that is running too rich and fouling the plugs some. It has a Bendex fixed jet carburetor on it. I lived in Florida fir 35 years and I did not have this issue there at sea level. I moved to Alabama and now I am running rich. I will rebuild the carb I have a kit. The last time I rebuilt the carb was in the mid 90's Would poor timing make it run rich. It starts on the first kick and runs fine so the timing seems good. I hope it is not an oil issue it only has 18.000 on a total over hauled engine and it has had good a maintenance with regular oil changes using only Harley oil.
You didn't say how high the altitude is where you live now. I lived at sea level for many years. And I thought I was a great tuner. Well, I moved way inland. About 2700 feet above sea level. Oh yah, there's no moisture in the air here either. Let's see now, high altitude and no air. Very humbling experience. It took a while to adjust my thinking and habits. A fixed jet Bendix is not hard to change. You can install an adjustable main jet kit, but that is a very rough adjustment. There are interchangeable main jets available. Tedd Cycle (V-Twin) still carries the jets in their catalog. If that 74" cone motor starts so easy with a kickstarter, you might be running a little retarded, but you get my vote as a competent tuner.
Can’t believe your not in the double denim in this vid! Your still a legend though. Luv it
Gee thanx. That's an early video. I try not to wear shirts that advertise products.
Wisdom and knowledge... Passing it on To others is True Brotherhood...Thank you
We're trying to help. Thank you.
I'm 62 yrs old, I've been riding shovels since 1973, no bull, my older brother bought a new FLH in 73 and he let me ride it as a 16 yr old. Bought my 69 FLH in 1980, still riding it. Nobody cares about my story, I get that. My point is...guys like you have disappeared from my area, eastern PA. Keep it up for the next generation and thank you.
Just like the ole vw bugs back in the day....remember my pan and bug timed the same way ....great vid.
Old machinery, great stuff. Thank you.
Well I've told you in the past I enjoy your videos and I do. This one is a video which helped me as I have a 68 shovel head I'm working on right now, putting a new clutch in. I wanted to put in new points, etc. and had gotten a little 'dim' on the subject. This was a big help. Thanks for what you do, I appreciate you.
Glad to help. You made me feel good.
just tuned in great instructions on old school bikes very professional hope to see more
Thank you. We'll keep 'em coming.
Awesome video! Just a little tough to see the points open when adjusting timing, but get the concept (what I was in search of). Thank you sir!
Glad if it helped you.
Wow, a 47 knucklehead, this guy is lucky to have and own such a cool bike!!!
Thank you.
ВЛД Фледхэд тоже очень крут такой модель!)
I needed this video 20yrs ago
Thank You.
Straight to the point. Well filmed easy to understand. Thank you sir
Thank you.
Thank god for your channel that’s all I gotta say!! I’m a novice when it comes to doing all the engine work and wiring for my 1986 Harley FXSTC Softail. I know small engine repair so that helps understanding engines. Nobody wants to work on this Vintage of a Harley. Not Boston Harley Davidson. Not custom shops in Massachusetts. Parts are very very hard to find. I got the bike to have a hobbie that I much needed. That being said this channel is No bullshit no wasting time on instructions. Most of all real deal host. Not somebody trying to be funny or witty when they’re not. #oldschoololdtimersrule!
Thank You. Glad you enjoy it.
Thanks Mike: I never new that before, but it sounds like a excellent way of getting the best out of your engine.
Tuning is fun.
Thanks Mike nice to see your way of doing it, cheers
Thanks 👍
I remember learning points on an old KZ900. It got converted to electronic soon after.
Just a little different and they're really great for teaching how things work.
@@pacificmike9501 For sure. It is becoming a lost art!
i have a 62 Ex Mexican cop bike and cant find any reference to using the manual advance , any pointers / help be muchly appreciated . you have a fantastic channel , great to see a real bike master at work thanks again
Thank You. Harley Davidson service manual 1959-1969. And, look at some of our earlier videos. It's all there.
Awesome thank you for sharing your knowledge
My pleasure!
Good job. I shared this with a friend trying to figure his 63 FL out
I'm glad it helped you. You probably know, unless it's been changed, the '63 came with a dual-point, dual-coil, system. Good idea and good design, for the time. However, after setting them up (using front and rear timing marks on the left flywheel, I normally change them over to a single point, single coil system. The reason being that I find it difficult to keep both sets of points adjusted properly at the same time. And when converting to 12 volts, only need to buy 1 coil. Just my way of dealing with it, but even though it's not stock, much easier to maintain. I'm really glad the video was useful to you.
Hi Mike: I know its a lot to remember, when you are trying to give people the Wisdom of Motorcycles.
I am shore you know this, plugs tell you everything about the motors state of health.
You could do a whole program on Plugs, like what each colour means and how plugs can whether your mixture is too rich or too weak.
Being old school, we know these things. Anyway; I'm not going to steal your Thunder on PLUGS.
I really appreciate that. It does still work, kinda. With today's fuel, it ain't quite like it used to be. When is the last time you saw that "light chocolate brown" on your plugs or even in your pipes? About all we get any more is "that's way too dark" or "there's nuthin' on that plug." The manufacturers want you to buy a sparkplug flashlight and read the color on the ring way up inside the plug where the insulator meets the outer body. You don't steal my thunder. I appreciate what you have to say.
Good to know the gap is 20 thousand,I was taught to use a cigarette selafane, but we didn't have many tools, thanks for the info.
Cellophane was for timing, points gap was a matchbook cover. We probably went to different schools together.
@@pacificmike9501 well whatever school we went to they both worked. Thanks
When I was 18 I bought my first basket case, thought I knew it all, my older brother was really good with motors,he would let me put it all together then say you forgot this,ahh had to tear her back down, wile he snickered, cursed him then love him now, hey I didn't make that mistake again, good teacher.
You are a wealth of knowledge.. Thank you for sharing this.
Thank you.
Thanks Mike another great video .I needed that little lesson.
Glad it was helpful!
10-4 gonna try that on my 59 panlhead, thanx mike
Cool.
Hi Mike your a great teacher and I am Australian and understand you perfectly I’ve inherited a 1979 FLH in parts one of the problems I’m having now the original points have been replaced by Joe Hunt side mounted magneto and I can’t find anywhere except for the limited information provided by Joe Hunt on how to reinstall this and do the timing
If you can help it would be much appreciated
Thank you. Did you contact Joe Hunt Magnetos directly? They are certainly still in business, even though "Joe Senior" passed many years ago. He personally built me a mag back in about 1978. Great guy building world class equipment. Sportster service manuals that deal with XLCH Sportsters from 1959 to 1969 explain magnetos pretty well. To begin with, always remember, "Never set your sparkplug gap wider than .018-.019." That will keep you out of serious trouble. Recheck them regularly. Now, if everything is good, it's a matter of timing. If the magneto is not functioning, I would contact Joe Hunt Magnetos. I beieve they are in Rancho Cordova California.
Thanks Mike magneto is working fine it’s just I’m not 100% sure how to install it and get the timing right ringing America is not really an option as you really need something down on paper or video there site is very vague on installation
Professional craftsman, children watch and learn
Thank you.
I set time by shoving a paper towel down the spark plug hole, turn the motor til it pops. You are now at or very close to or at tdc. Timing mark would be in very very close proximity or at "the window". Thanks Mike.
Make sure both valves are closed on your front cylinder or you'll be 180 degrees off.
Yep. But if the towel pops, you are pretty much there.
Great idea.....
I've mostly used my finger in the plug hole. When you turn the engine, compression will push past your finger. Compression only occurs on the firing stroke.
I also put my test light clip on the timer terminal post, place the light where I can see it from the left side, then rotate the engine so that the light comes on just when the flywheel mark arrives at the right spot. I ground the probe end of the test light with a jumper wire. Thanks for the instructive video.
Thanks for a great video!
Thank You.
Very nice video on mousetrap !!!!
Thank you very much!
I have a '52 FL and rather than use the rear wheel, I remove the derby cover and with a long screw driver through the fingers. shift the line about easily while parked on the side stand. (trans in neutral)
Interesting way to do it. Be very careful not to stress the fingers. They're not made to use in that manner.
Hi Mike, I’m sooo glad to see this instruction!! Is there any reason to put gear four to get timing adjusted? Can it be done by putting it at first gear instead? Appreciate your response.
Much easier to turn the engine over in top gear by turning the wheel by hand with the spark plugs out.
The best video on Timing I have seen, Im just awaiting a new curcuit breaker( Christmas /New Year you name it, all shops are closed)
Got same as you a Knuckle -47, but I have a auto ditributor, and no mark on the cam.
As I understand with an original distributor, you set the point gap at the narrow part of the cam, is that correct?
Greatful for tips
Brgds Lars
Yes. Front cylinder on compression stroke, small lobe on circuit breaker cam, timing mark on flywheel in proper position in window. Points just starting to open (just barely) with circuit breaker fully advanced (holding it advanced if automatic.
Mike, I appreciate you, is there anyway you could show us a dual point set up, using a dwell for perfect dual point timing?
I don't have one around. I do find them maddening, however. To set them up, time consuming, but not too difficult. I set them by the book (they were used from 61-64, I don't remember for sure). Hard to keep them set properly. I normally replace that setup with single points and coil at the same time I convert to twelve volts. The service manual covers it real well, although a dwell meter should be the way to go.
@@pacificmike9501
I have it set up like the service manual says, using a test light, but I have heard when using a dwell, you can really dial them in. I’ve not used a dwell before and there is no speck in the book for it either. Thank for the reply Mr Mike.. keep the chrome side up, and ride on.
We used dwell meters on cars a bunch in the old days. If you set your bike up by the book, you'll be fine. But, you'd really like single points and a good 12 volt system with a really nice hot 12 volt coil.
Hello Mike. you've made some great detailed videos for points adjustment. I have two generator shovels with auto advance distributors (factory stock). Perhaps some time you could cover the flyweights, springs and lubrication of them. Can you advise what you use to lubricate the pivot points on the flyweights on the base? Also, can you advise if you know of a company that sells stronger tensioned flyweight springs for '65 pan and '66-'69 shovels? I know there are three different tensioned springs available for '70 and up, but I never see anything for early models. Thank you.
V-Twin carries the springs for your units, but I don't know of any custom tensions available for them. I use antisieze to lube the advance mechanisms.
Hi Mike, thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.
Hi Mike, hopefully you are surviving the heat! When timing with a timing light for '65 - '69 FLH do you try to get the engine idling around 2000rpm? Do you have an idea of the rpm needed to get the flyweights to move the distributor into full advance on these bikes? I think I found in one of the manuals 2000rpm was the magic number to time 1970 and up FLH's, but oddly I could not find definitive numbers for '65 - '69.
Thankyou for this video,, I have a late model 1961 fl, dual points,, is it the same procedure with front cylinder, pushrods down, ign on, with grounded testing light ?
Yes, it's all the same. There is a very lengthy but complete, explanation in the HD 59-69 service manual. One set of points is timed to the Front cylinder mark on the flywheel and the rear cylinder set of points time to the rear mark. It will seem very involved and it takes a bit of time. Once you understand it, it's not too bad. Keeping both sets of points timed exactly right is a kind of a pain. I usually change them over to single points and time off of the front cyl. timing mark.
@@pacificmike9501 I’ve got an original bike with the advance- retard on the left grip- when I set the timing should that cable be disconnected from the circuit breaker?.. and should I move the bracket out of the way so it’s easier to loosen nut to change timing..
Thankyou
Mike,
I hope you feel there are no stupid questions 😁
Will this same principle apply to a shovel cone motor?
Thanks, Stoney
Pretty much, just different locations. And the Shovel has an automatic advance mechanism. Get your hands on a proper Harley service manual.
It looks like you like to set the timing mark almost in the middle of the window compared to how it’s shown in the manual (far right side of the window). Did I see that correctly? BTW, your videos are extremely helpful!
BTW, I’m working on a ‘48 FL with an FLH cam.
It depends on the model. The placement differs a little. This is one of the reasons I recommend using a "model specific" genuine Harley service manual. Harley's own specification should be your starting point. When you're playing with other cams, ignitions, compression ratios, it all plays a part. But, that staring point is generally pretty close.
That word was "starting"
Very informative.
Glad you liked it
Thank you.....very comprehensive video. Just to confirm, the goal is to have the points 'open' when the Cylinder #1 is at TDC, and the distributer (timer) is fully advanced?
You got it, except, at that time, the points have just BARLEY opened. That's why we use a test light to get it accurate.
This might sound like a dumb question, but if the old V-Twins ran a wasted-spark ignition system, why does the distributor have two lobes? Could they not just gear it so that it fires on one lobe?
My second stupid question is why is the front distributor lobe narrow, and the rear cylinder lobe wide?
@@jjlad5037 You cant run 1 lobe because it is not a 180 degree engine. To do that both cylinders would have to be at tdc at the same time. One firing and the other at overlap on exhaust/intake. The lobe difference is because the cylinders have different timing specs. Thats why you set front cylinder to the narrow lobe if memory serves and the fat lobe is for rear. If you set front to the timing marks on the flywheel, then the rear will be correct. Atleast that was for my last two shovels with points in the cam cover. And if i remember correctly my pan, iron sportsters, and wla were the same even though some had distributors the points and lobes were the same. Someone will correct me if i have fat and narrow lobes reversed but that is why the different lobes. Different timing front vs rear.
@@Big.Ron1 ...thank you..of course that begs the question...why different timings for front & rear cylinders?
Hey Mike dig the shirt bro love those guys
Yes, I've done business with them for many years.
Hey Mike. I have a 1979 FXS shovelhead (74 cubic inch) and I am trying to replace the HI-4N electronic ignition on it. Should i be setting the new ignition while the Line or the Dot is in the inspection hole? I am confused on which one is TDC and which one is the advance mark for 1979 shovelheads. Thanks!
The dot is TDC on the front cylinder. The line is the advanced timing mark. Don't forget to position the valves so the no. one cylinder is on its compression stroke.
so the alternative method would be you have a timing light, and with the engine running, you could aim your timing light at the mark on the other side and then move your distributor so that you see the mark centered in the window correct? but i like your method as you can do it with the engine off and its nice and quiet :)
Thank you. Ideally, a timing light would be the way to go. But, it's a very difficult process at best on the old engines. These are not my ideas. This is the way it is done. Pay attention to the manual as to the actual position of the mark in the timing hole. Then, you can shift it slightly to find the optimum position for the timing of your bike's ignition system.
Is the timing mark the TDC or the timing advance?
The slash or "line" is the advance timing mark.
Hello Mike, I am working on a '64 DuoGlide with stock 6v system and dual points. Front cylinder gap set to .022 (as per service manual) and timing is set as per manual as well. When working on the rear timing, gap on the RC points needed to be set to .016 so timing mark would align properly. .006 seems to be a pretty wide spread.
In the service manual for '70 - '78 Shovelhead it notes that in this single point system the point gap may vary between fc/rc by a range of .004. Using this to get a frame of reference for what an acceptable rage for the difference in gap between the two.
Using the comparison between the two to get a feel for weather .006 is OK or not. I am thinking I have to get to the bottom of the .006 difference.
your input appreciated.
Just keep on going. Your logic is good, butgetting those points angled to the point of matching the gaps is quite difficult. I normally change them to single points for easier tuning. On the 70 and later, you can match the openings quite easily by tapping on the through bolt that the points cam runs on. You can match those exactly. You just keep rotating the engine and tapping that bolt until they match. The dual points? not that easy. You'll get there, just very time consuming. It will however, run very smoothly, once you get them to match. Same thing on the 70 and later with single points. These were not some of Harley's brightest moments.
@@pacificmike9501 thanks. I think I can get them to match by setting the front cylinder to .019 and then I will assume that the rear will move out by .003, and end up at the same thing, 019. That's my thinking on it anyway. And also the recommendation of a close friend who does a lot of this work as well. Wanted to confirm that that is what you meant versus trying to get them both to . 022. That I would be scratching my head a bit longer over, up to and including taking the timer out and rebuilding that to make sure I don't have any gaps or glitches in there.
So looking for confirmation, setting them both to the same. As in both at .019. Thanks. Appreciate your feedback.
Sounds like you have a handle on it. Keeping it in tune is kind of a pain. As I said before, I generally change them to single point.
Hi Mike, Did I miss something with the voltage regulator or did you remove it for the video? Nice Knuck, by the way!
Thank you. The original was a 6 volt cutout relay mounted to the case. There is however, a 12 volt generator with a solid state regulator mounted to the left end of it.
Why not electronic ignition Mike? Are u just trying to Stickney original stock because if so I get that. Ibe got a bone stock 1 family owned 65 SS Impala 409 that I took the points out of and installed a cool little product called pertronix electronic ignition, fits right in ola e of the old points and u woukd never know. Can u not get a product like that for a motorcycle?
Nevermind Mike i found a video u did explaining well enough to understand. Thanks dude!
I really get a lot of service out of my original "point type" ignition. However, there is a gentleman (I can't remember his company name) that makes just such a unit as you describe.
Mike, Im about to resurect a Pan with magneto. Could you do a points video to refresh my brain? I think I remember most of it but a refresher would be nice. Thx, Great series by the way.
I'll get around to a magneto when I put the project bike together. Back in the day, when I first messed with them, I used the info from an early Sportster manual. XLCH Sporters ('59-'69) all had mags. This information is perfect.
@@pacificmike9501 Thanks for the input
Mike, can you explain the mouse trap, what it does, and why modern bikes don't have one?
Harley Davidson refers to it as a "clutch booster assembly." It is an assembly comprised of a spring and bellcrank which (by using leverage and rotation) makes the clutch lever much easier to operate and requires much less effort to hold the lever in to keep the clutch disengaged at a stoplight. This is a whole assembly that I'm sure was quite expensive to produce. Today they do it quite easily with little parts and a diaphragm clutch spring. People had a hard time learning to adjust them, but believe me, when they're adjusted properly, they are awesome.
Hi Mike, hopefully you are surviving the heat! When timing with a timing light for '65 - '69 FLH do you try to get the engine idling around 2000rpm? Do you have an idea of the rpm needed to get the flyweights to move the distributor into full advance on these bikes? I think I found in one of the manuals 2000rpm was the magic number to time 1970 and up FLH's, but oddly I could not find definitive numbers for '65 - '69.
Close enough. I find it very difficult with a light, but when I use one, it has a tach on it. Around 2000, it should be fully advanced.
Thank you Mike for your confirmation! Much appreciated.
Is the timing mark (67' single point automatic adv) supposed to be in the middle of the window or to the right side just in view? (have a manual on order)
The answer to your question is the center of the window.. Don't forget: "Circuit breaker cam must be fully advanced clockwise against stop when checking alignment of mark with fiber cam follower." That should do it. It's the same for '65-'69 big twin distributors, which are all automatic advancing units.
Pacific Mike thank you!!! , Again.. very helpful.. look forward to more videos!
@@dutch385 See my latest response Dale, perhaps it helps you.
Hey Mike, any chance you could give some input on setting timing with an auto advance distributor?
Same as the manual advance. Bring up the marks the same way, with the ignition cam advanced all the way and held in place.
Hi Mike, thanks for getting back. So since 'unleaded fuel' you suggested that plugs are not so easy to read without the newfangled gizmo?
It's just that they don't color up like they used too. Then, the manufacturers wants you to read the plug way deep inside where there"s a flat ring where the insulator and the outer casing go together. It's a skinny little flat surface. They sell little flashlights with magnifiers on them so you can see inside the plug. About all I can tell about a plug any more is if the condition is real obvious like,"wow, there's nothing on it." or "That plug is dark." Then there"s the usual, "They sure don't match," indicationg a vacuum leak. I think the fuel is tough to read and I'd like to think we build our motors better. Just ain't like it used to be. Nowdays, I'm pleased to have just a little color, my old bikes, a little more color than the newer stuff.
Mike I have a 1983 fxr shovel stroker 98". S&S internal fly wheels, crank & jugs. What mark should I look for through the timing hole to make sure its top dead center
The single dot should be TDC for the front cylinder (with both front cylinder valves closed). Go to sscycle.com for S&S instruction sheets.
@@pacificmike9501 thank you Mike
Hey Mike I'm having some real trouble getting this 52 pan ive been working on to start easy any I just did the timing how you did, except for I have an auto advance distributor, any suggestions? It's got points and a super e carb.
Be sure you set your advance timing with the dist cam held in the advance position. I know that's a good carburetor, but, there's an enrichener and not a choke. Sometimes it takes more prime kicks without a choke plate.
Old y golden lol
There's a whole bunch of it out there. Thank You.
Will this Work for an Evo man? I love your channel thank you. I bought a 97 lowrider man and it's my first vehicle. Trying to tune her up. Thanks man.
Has someone installed an ignition points system in your Evo? If so, use an HD service manual that shows the procedure for 70-77 Big Twins.
Great video Mike. Thank you. I have a 1959 Panhead and the distributor is too tight, some times it is difficult to retard the spark with the grip. How can I fix that?. Thank you in advance. Appreciate your response.
Well, it's hanging up somewhere. The grip should be removed and the internals lubed with grease occasionally. The cable should be disassembled and lubed. The distributor (circuit breaker) should be taken apart and lubed too. This is normal maintenance. The bike is over sixty years old. I'll bet that stuff needs attention. It's all in your service manual.
Plus, my rear wheel is tight as hell against the trans, I can barely spin it in second gear to even try to get it in fourth. Brake isn’t dragging and clutch is fine on adjustment. Ideas?
Is your wheel and tire too large? Is your chain too short? It should adjust.
@@pacificmike9501 no, not a fat tire rubbing or the chain too tight, 3/4” deflection at center of run. No dragging when spun in neutral. I’ll keep looking though. Thank you sir!
Hello Mike,
Question unrelated to THIS video ...
Last weekend I made a stop into my local Harley-Davidson DEALERSHIP ( on 12/19/2020)
not noticing anything different - I made my way back to my favorite section of the STORE ( the PARTS DEPARTMENT)
& asked - what happened to all the NEW MOTORCYCLES ?
There were generally FIFTY (50) New bikes displayed ... now there might have been SEVEN (7) bikes on the entire showroom floor
Ken, the Parts Manager, looked at me somberly & simply stated: "We are no longer a H-D Dealership" !!!
( I thought he was pulling my leg & glanced at another customer standing near bye & he was slowly shaking his head - in agreement)
INDIANA lost over 35 Harley-Davidson DEALERSHIPS as of 12/01/2020 /// H-D CORPORATION simply REVOKED their FRANCHISES !!!
Simply stated - if a FRANCHISE did NOT sell at least 300 NEW H-D Motorcycles each year = they were DIS-Enfranchised !
Did this happen in your STATE too ? CURIOUS ...
My "old" dealership is now simply known as "SHADE CYCLES" after the owners last name ,,,
COOP
............................................
Wow. That's one on me. I'll have to ask around.
what a nice fucking motorcycle. holy cow.
Thank you
Can this be done on a magneto equipped XLCH 900?
And is it true that an xlch starts in advance only?
If you're on full advance, it's most likely going to kick you harder than you kicked the starter pedal. You need a service manual. Setting the magneto is in the book. It is very touchy and exacting. Once you get it right, it will work great. Plugs and points must be set according to the service manual. That means according to the book on a magneto equipped XLCH.
Is the timing mark supposed to be directly in the center on the window or slightly right or left? Because my manual is showing that the timing mark on my FLH should be to the right of the window. Im not sure what u did i couldnt see the timing mark in the video.
Do what your service manual (correct position of the mark in the window for your year and model) says. This is with the ignition fully advanced and your front piston on the compression stroke. The only difference could be, if your ignition system is an aftermarket unit, follow their specific instructions.
Ya know Mike, Im trying to do my 75' shovel and these videos are misguiding on the timing mark, I have the Line AND the punch mark, Which one is it?? Ive watched several videos and they are all contradicting each other.... .. Im replacing the points/condensor, and wanna make sure its right, Thanks in advance,
The punch mark is TDC for the front cylinder. The line is the advanced timing mark. That's where it fires the front cylinder with the timing advanced.
@@pacificmike9501 Thank you Mike...
Heck, Mike, I was waiting for you to whip out a rolling paper (i wonder how many folks know what i'm talking about ^)
On my circuit breaker housing there's a timing mark that should align close to the outside edge of the strap the lock nut tightens down.
Are you familiar with that?
Sure, it is so, so that you can rotate the housing to give yourself the adjustment you require. And, I've become so civilized that I use a feeler gauge. Out on the road, under a tree, that's something a little different. Actually, back in the day, a matchbook cover was real close on point settings.
I recently bought a 38 UL and started it however the front cylinder did not fire. Only the rear cylinder fired. Is this due to timing? It appears to have spark for both cylinders.
Congratulations! Fun bike. I have a '40 Flathead 80 that will come up soon. Before trying to start it. I suggest you check and make sure the valves are operating. Open the lifter covers and make sure the valves are opening and closing. Set the proper clearance on those valves (providing they are operating). Then, set points and timing. If everything checks out, (you have spark at the right time, the valves are set properly and functioning, the plugs are clean enough to fire, and you have fuel), she should, at least, talk to you. If the valves are seized, stop, and remove the cylinder. If the valves are set too tight, no compression. Refer to your book for proper settings. Let me know how it goes, just proceed with caution. That's a great motor, torque monster, way cool.
Thanks for the info Mike ,one thing I don't get though , my panhead manual 1948 to 1965 says to set the points to .022 , not .020 . Also do you know if my 1948EL timing procedure is the same on the EL as it is on the FL motors . MY manual doesn't mention the EL motor at all when adjusting the timing .
.020 on Knuckles, .022 on Pans. I forget. EL and FL time the same. Unless everything is bone stock and stock low compression, you'll be playing around with degrees and things to get your motor running the way YOU want it to. Have fun.
@@pacificmike9501 thanks
Needed these videos 40 years ago.👍
Swiss army knife and a matchbook. My points closed up on a ride those two items got her running. My buddy on his Kawasaki shook his head in disbelief..
Way cool.
Awesome! Thanks!
Thank you for watching. More coming.
@@pacificmike9501Welcome. Great. Just got my 58 pan started after having it sit for a couple years. Followed your procedures. Seems the timing is not as critical as your fine-tuning suggests as it's just going to be changed while running anyway, after starting. Just to Get it in range? ruclips.net/video/gUmniRyfNuM/видео.html Idle didn't come down so it shut rr down. Will worry about that next.
So in the fully advanced position it should be light on?
Just coming on (points just starting to open, light just at the point of lighting).
Hi Mike. On a cone shovel motor, how do you make an adjustment to the cam to get the large and small lobe to open the points equally within the proper gap specs? In other words, my small lobe is .020 and my large is .017 and I want it opened up some. I hope this makes sense, buddy. Thank you!
Something I figured out for myself about 35 years ago. Your bike will now idle prettier than anyone around. The long skinny bolt that holds it all together, is so skinny and long, that it can be bent, just a little. Okay, plugs out, now setting points and rotating engine. One lobe gives me a big gap and the other a small one. Not to worry. Take a small metal hammer. I think mine is about a two ounce. Smack the bolt lightly from the side with the smallest gap. Now check both gaps and repeat until you get them even. Set it at the desired gap (memory says .018). Check again and again until you get it. Be very gentle with the little hammer on the side of the bolt head. This is a cone motor, with points ignition, fact.
Mike, thank you so much for taking time to answer this question. I can't wait to give it shot. The bike starts and runs well, but anything I can do to refine it even more is great for peace of mind. Anthony
The refining of a bike can last the rest of your life. We get better, as do our bikes.
Any advice for a fresh bill everything seems to be time bride but keeps sputtering out the carburetor will not start
Start setting it up all over again and check each thing. Gaps, plugs and points, battery voltage, voltage going in to coil, ignition timing, fuel flow to carburetor, and is the float bowl filling up. Just go step by step all the way through it. You'll get there.
On my 59’ FL has a Round notch as a timing mark on the Crank, could that be a Aftermarket or did some years do that ?
The round mark should be TDC. The straight slash is your advanced timing mark.
@@pacificmike9501 Yea I'm not sure where to time it, I did the round as tdc but with this S & S super E it doesn't. wanna run unless the enricher knob is pulled up. IDK if thats a timing issue or the Carb since I tore it apart to clean it out
Sounds like it's too lean.
I have a 66 shovel but i see no timing marks om the flywheel just one hole.help
Look at your service manual. They describe the location of the advance timing mark. I'll bet it's there (7/16" before TDC on the front cylinder compression stroke).
Mike, what would be the cause of a properly timed distributor not sparking consistantly.
Possibly a bad wire or bad connection. Most likely would be a bad condenser. Very few parts to an old Harley ignition system.
@@pacificmike9501 thanks turned out to be a bad connection.
Cool.
Good video! Do you happen to have one on setting a late model centrifugal advance distributor and possibly one on a Joe Hunt or Morris magneto?
Not at the moment. Don't have a centrifugal advance distributor around Good idea though I'll have one of my friends bring one ove once it's running. We will have a mag coming up in the future.
Same thing with cenrtif dis..just have to hold the points cam advanced while checking .centrifugal adv dis is the way to go
Nice to see that your vin # is blanked out. Great video Mike.
Those are "new old stock " cases. The vin# is on a tag on the frame. It was applied by a state police department.
Good video but where are the serial numbers on your bike? I use the plastic plug and it has to be very close to the flywheel without touching it. I then have to hold the timing light at an angle to the side of the plug. Done it this way many times. If the plug gets scratched you can touch it up on the buffing wheel.
Thank You. And, she has NOS cases.
Mike my names Nathan Morgan I'm from fayetteville Arkansas I have a 95 heritage Softail Springer built by American street dreams I now live down in Texas and my bike has a 38mm Edelbrock Quicksilver carburetor my dad had it sitting for about five years I finally brought it home got it running now it's running super rich fouling out the plugs could u give me any pointers by any chance brother
You're probably looking at the right place. I have not even seen those carburetors in years. They were distributed by Edelbrock, mostly through (maybe even "exclusively,'" not sure) Rivera Engineering. I doubt, if you're careful, that you will require parts to disassemble and clean it out real well. Also, clean out the tank and be sure you're running a clean fuel filter. Be sure you're running a clean air filter. If the air filter is real dirty, the carb will run way too rich.
I really appreciate ur advise brother I will keep u posted on how things are going with it God bless
HI Mike , I have a Generator shovel set up.The barrels and heads have been installed on a 1954 case/bottom end by owner at some point in the past. The flywheel only has a line on it and the piston is not at TDC when timing line is at middle of timing hole so I believe this would be the 35 deg BTDC mark ( or full advance).There is a mechanical advance distributor installed. I am not sure how best to set the timing of distributor breaker cam at the points. My idea is set 35 deg BTDC line in timing hole , turn points breaker cam to full advance ( flyweights fully extended) and the points should just start to open???? Do you
have some guidance for me please? Your help is greatly appreciated.
I think you mean "automatic advance distributor." If so, advance the breaker cam to set the timing with the timing mark in the window. If it is a "manual advance distributor," advance it all the way to set it with the "advance timing mark" in the window. Check your 1959-1969 service manual for the position of the mark in the window. You can adjust this slightly for your own fine tuning.
@@pacificmike9501 Yes the distributor uses flyweights to advance the timing at speed. Are these distributors meant to be advanced by hand after being started? I thought that if there were flyweights then there was no need to change timing by hand. Do you know if there is only one mark on the flywheel for full advance (I only see one line and it is well before TDC) I can confirm this with the heads off.
Mike: Brought my 56 back up after a decade down, initially because of a bad trans. All back together, several successful/40 miles each test runs. But she’s running rich as hell, adjust the super e back and forth not solving it. I know my valves are set right /perfect, but I’m going to recheck timing from scratch anyway. Too much oil being swept up by the flywheel preventing easy visual for when the timing mark comes up. Aftermarket oil pump, if I drain the horseshoe, then disconnect the lower feed oil line from the tank, to use it as a drain line to drain the cases (as much as it may), is there going to be a check valve in the oil pump that will prevent this tactic anyway?
You may have a vacuum leak at the manifold. Check your carburetor out as per S&S instruction sheet. If you don't have one, it is online under "SSCycle."
Drain your oil out of the tank. The plug is on the bottom of the tank, on the right side. If too much oil is feeding, it's probably not returning from the engine to the tank. Better look into the oil pump. If you need to drain the crankcase, the plug is on the left side, below the inner primary cover. Be gentle with it. Be sure not to overfill the system. There has to be air in the top of the tank.
@@pacificmike9501 waiting for the new o rings to show up, figure the old ones dried out enough in a decade to crack. Got the brown viton jobs.
@@pacificmike9501 the two on the spacer and the e body are ok. Probably swap em out anyway if all this doesn’t do it.
@@pacificmike9501 thanks, boss. I have a little too much oil in the tank, not much, but I’ll suck some out. I checked upon initial start up to make sure the pump was not cavitating and had return flow, I have a return current in the tank.
Since the backfiring through the carb is new, I checked the alignment of the carb spacer more carefully, I think you’re right (as usual... only one reason why we love ya!) I’ll reattach it in the am and report back. You rock boss. Like one guy said about watching your videos... it is church for some of us. Very zen. I’ll watch videos about stuff I’ll never even deal with... they’re just that relaxing.
how would you set dual points with hand timing adjustment on a 62 fl ? ..thanks
Pretty involved. It's explained very well in the HD 1959-1969 FL Service Manual. Normally, unless someone really wants to preserve that system, I change over to the earlier (single points, single coil) system. It's much easier to maintain and, in practice, gives a more "consistent" tune. I don't mean to knock it. But, when in the middle of nowhere, I really prefer simplicity. Whenever I tune one of those, they run beautifully, but they seem to require more maintenance to hold both sets of points to play well with each other.
When you set it on the timing mark is distributor all the way advanced ? Im trying to set my panhead up
Yes.
I am having a hard time understanding what you are doing with the test light in conjunction with the timing marks.
With the flywheel timing mark in the right place and the points cam tiiming mark in the right place , the ignition should spark at the points lighting the test light.
Just had to say great video! First time watching your channel and yes i did subscribe. I have a 75 FLH with a 93" all S&S style shovel. It came with an electronic distributor but I'm thinking of switching it to points since i don't have everything i need to make it work and the parts to do so are expensive. Not sure whether to go single fire or dual as well as whether to go single or dual on the points. Just looking to build a reliable daily rider. Nothing more. Any help at all would be much appreciated. If your answers are to long for here i can provide my email address. Thank you sir and keep up the great work!
I hate to say it, but dual points are awful! Getting them to sync properly and stay that way is somewhat maddening. A 93" Shovelhead is a serious motor. Be careful in your decisions and gear it very high. It has the torque to pull tall gears and it will keep it at low rpm's. When you can afford it, and I don't usually plug products, Dynatek is the answer.
On my 1966 shovelhead when the line is dead center in the window my intake valve has light pressure on it you cannot turn the pushrod. Should I loosen the pushrod so both valves are completely closed in that position?
It’s the same on 180 and 360 revolution
Turn the engine over by hand with the sparkplugs out. When the intake drops, keep going until it has gone down as far as it is going to. Now adjust it. I'm assuming you have solid lifters. If you do, you should be able to turn the pushrod with your fingers. The limne on the flywheel is your advance timing mark, not TDC. Those marks are for timing ignition, not adjusting valves.
@@pacificmike9501 When my rear exhaust push rod is fully extended my front cylinder exhaust push rod is loose and vice verse.
When my rear intake pushrod is fully extended my front intake push rod is loose and vice verse
At no point on the front cylinder is the intake and the exhaust loose for me to do timing.
I’m trying to understand if I’m timed correctly at top dead center and not on overlap. The bike is running fine just a question. 1966 shovelhead
Yes I have solid lifters
Question Mike, tuning up my 58 FL, I wanted to check spark on the plugs, turning the engine over I notice that both plugs sparked at the same time, once at the timing mark on distributor then 180 degrees off for rear cylinder, is it normal that both plugs spark at the same time ?
Yes. There is a "wasted" spark that goes to the "other" cylinder while the piston is on its exhaust stroke.
Unless you have 2 coils and dual points.
I have seen this
Hi Mike, appreciate the instruction vid!
Just wanted to let you know that the original instruction (per manual and Palmers restoration book) for single points early big twin is to set the timing with the line on the flywheel on the right side of the window and not the center. Unclear how close it should be to the right side (I've read 1/16th" and 1/8th") Also for Dale Marcus.
So my question for you Mike is how did you get to setting it in the center? According to the manual thats retarding the timing. Are you running unleaded fuel without ethanol? Also the cam that is in the bike is important of course. Was it running hot at more advance? Just trying to figure it out for my own bike. Thanks in advance for a reply.
Make sure you're looking at the right manual for your bike. The location of the advance mark on your flywheel should appear in the window where it is supposed to according to your size and model, automatic or manual advance. You start out with the factory recommendation, then "minor" adjustment from there. I don't know what your bike is. But, there's a picture of that window in the right book.
@@pacificmike9501 Hi Mike, I own a '50 pan that I've completely rebuild from the crankcases up, yes got the service manual and it describes the timing as I stated above. Palmer just mentioned timing for OHV's 1936> and describes it the same as the service manual for the pans.
Therefore I assume that knuck timing is the same as pan timing.
I find it interesting that your timing is that much retarded compared to the service manual for pans. I am not yet in the ballpark of being completely confident about the timing position of my flywheel mark and thus seek info on what leads you to advance or retard the timing. What do you take in to account when tuning? Personally I have never heard an engine "ping" on too much advance so got no reference for that.
Thanks for getting back to me so far. Best regards, Tristan.
looks like you set it to spark at exactly top dead center and not a bit advanced. Am I missing something?
The mark on the flywheel is the advance mark. If you're timing to it, it is fully advanced.