Just watched several videos about Anglo Saxon rulers and battles but Catherine is more informative and detailed, a true Historian and virtual tour guide. 🏆 bonus 👍 for ducklings clip
Very interesting. I was reminded of all the drownings at the Battle of Tewkesbury, much later in time, but that was along part of the Severn, IIRC, which no one could accuse of being incapable of flooding. It's so interesting what you say about how history works and how the folk memory and the sources intertwine. Oswiu certainly is an interesting man and he must have been a hell of a leader to come back and overcome. I imagine his defeat of Penda changed the religious and political trajectory of the whole island, which just goes to show how finely balanced fate can be. Thank you for another fascinating video.
Great vid. I live near Wentbridge. I can confirm that the river does get very flooded at certain times of the year. In some areas it is extensive and very deep. Not sure how likely it is for the site of the battle but in terms of the ‘flooded’ account it is very possible. Especially in the fields to the east of the village.
A'reyt Catherine. I was up near that area of Leeds a couple of weeks back and passed through Castleford. It would not be much to change to battle ford and Allerton Bywater, next to it, is in Leeds district and certainly can be flooded. I pass through Wentbridge regularly and it does not seem like the description. My money would be on the area between Allerton Bywater and Selby, which floods and look for the Roman road. The fact that the Roman bridge had broken, giving rise to the later Norman French named Pontefract would point at this too, to me. Unlike some other commenters, I think of Saxons as folk down south and think more of Yorkshire's association with the later Norse settlers, who named much of it during the Danelaw. Alas poor Jorvik. Another battle you might check out is the Battle of Brunanburh. I first saw Michael Wood's explanation on TV, then came across an article in the Society of Ancients newsletter that said it was at Bromborough on the Wirral, where my university wargames pal lived. A fellow RUclips commenter from Bromborough later mentioned it after I suggested some channels with videos on Vikings. He reckons they have found archeological evidence now.
I haven't git a clue about 'Campus Gai' but I wondered if it's a corruption of a roman camp that was dedicated to Caligula? Dont worry, I'll see myself out...
This period is called the Dark Age for a reason you know. That's what makes it so fascinating. Still, a fascinating video about a battle I've never heard of. Thanks! By the way, these events took place 1500 years ago, the landscape will have changed quite a bit. I love that shirt by the way!
Leeds was probably just a tiny hamlet hugging a ford over the Rive Aire in Saxon times. However, I thought initially Loidis meant the area north of the Aire and this might be true given the villages of Ledsham and Ledston to the East. Buried deep in the area that was once the Forest of Elmete, these are far closer to Castleford/Pontefract and the Aire/Calder confluence which even after 400 years of Industrial draining is still an boggy stretch.
She is quite astute! As an investigator, I might look at ancient maps as the most plausible route of a march as everyone is walking or on horse, wagons…not easy. I might look at historical & scientific weather records … streams becoming rivers. I might look at any old artillery surveys and comments. Well done.
The crossing of the river Went on the main Roman road sounds like a reasonable guess for the location of the battle, as many similar encounters throughout history are associated closely with this & parallel routes. These include, in the same era, the battle of Maeserfield, while in the 12 century there was the battle of the Standard, & in the Wars of the Roses Towton lies on this same route, (also involving many drownings in the Cock Beck). After this there are several events along the same route during the English Civil Wars, with the major battle of Marston Moor closely associated. Similarly, but elsewhere, Stamford Bridge was at the crossing of a river by a main Roman road, & even the Battle of Hastings was fought where the English attempted to block the Norman invaders progress along a major Roman route to London. In Bede the battle took place in the 'Regio Liodis', that is an area not a city location, & Leeds was not a 'city' in any case at that time. Liodis is thought to have been a subdivision of the former Kingdom of Elmet, which is located east of modern Leeds, with the placename Sherburn 'in Elmet' etc pinning it down. The Roman road here crosses the river Went, making this the most likely site of the ancient battle of Winwaed.
I live in oswaldtwistle, a mile away is churchkirk. The only church church Saxon and Kirk viking. The story goes, that the army on its way back to Northumbria stopped at the well there and founded a church in memorial of st Oswald. The tongue of land belonging to Oswald, was it's defence land.
Or a Briton. Many Britons, perhaps the majority, were assimilated rather than slaughtered or driven out. My personal dna shows that I'm overwhelmingly Celt - Irish, Welsh and Scot.
Crazy i'm just reading up on Penda and this pops up, great video! I'm from nearby just up the beck on the towton battlefield, that beck has been connected to some crazy history regardless of the accuracy of bedes account - i have to say the went makes so muvh more sense.
It is! It's really hard to get images of people from this time as there's hardly any surviving paintings, so you're relying on stained glass windows or manuscripts...
"What this really shows (11:30)..." is that Early Medieval historical commentators (not proper historians, IMO) like to conjure up brilliant egocentric conclusions from an extreme paucity of reality, few primary sources and much imagination. I loved your style as an evidential historian. Subscribed.
I feel there is a solution to the location of this battle which bears no reference to Leeds. It may be that Bede's 'Leodis' was a mistaken form of LUGOVALIUM. I.E. Carlisle, not Leeds. Caer Gai could well be a mistaken form of CAER MAIS, the Roman fortress at Bowness, at the western termination of Hadrian's Wall. And the 'Winwaed' was an alternate version of SULWADE, i.e. The SOLWAY FORTH. 'Sulwade' is a Norse name and means some thing like 'the southern (sul) WADE'. Meaning a river so shallow it was used as a FORD, where people would regularly wade across it. If The Battle of Winwaed (or possibly more correctly 'Winwade'??) took place on the SOLWAY, possibly at Caer Mais, at Hadrian's Wall's western terminal, a flash flood caused by heavy rain upstream COULD INDEED be responsible for washing away many thousands of men who were fighting in the flood plain. The location of Leeds for the battle is derived solely from the mention of Leodis (Leeds). But if Oswiu was in the farthest northern part of his kingdom, this would place him somewhere in the region of EDINBURGH wouldn't it? That's to the north of the Solway. Therefore if Penda marched up to Edinburgh fought a battle and dealt Oswiu a blow, then was caught by a resurgent Oswiu whilst marching back south, Penda would be presumably using THE MAIN INVASION ROUTE used by both Scotland and England in their invasions of the other's territory for centuries - crossing the Solway, by fording it, around the vicinity of Carlisle. There is even a stone monument on the foreshore of the Solway in this very vicinity, dedicated to King Edward I, at Burgh (another of the Roman forts along Hadrian's Wall) at the place where he camped with his forces before wading across the Solway ('Winwade'???) in 1306. This was the place Edward chose to WADE across the Solway to fight the Scots. Penda would have presumably taken exactly the same route to head up to Dun Eideann (Edinburgh) which was, at that time, not in 'Scotland' (or it's precedent) but was the most northerly part of Bernicia, that is to say NORTHUMBRIA.
Very interesting theory! Lots to consider there. I agree that the connection to Leeds is rather ropey - a singular mention in a chronicle written 70 years later by someone who wasn't there and wasn't from the area...
@@CatherineWarr In addition, 1) The name Winwaed is supposed to derive from 'win' (meaning struggle, strife and battle, and is the origin of our word 'win' -meaning 'victory') and 'wade' - meaning to wade or ford. Therefore the name itself would be an entirely appropriate term to describe the main invasion route between 'England' and 'Scotland'. A modern interpolation of it could be 'The ford of victory'/'The ford of battle'/' The ford of campaign' etc. 2) Bede only stated that Oswiu's campaign ENDED at Leodis (Leeds) indicating the time when he ceased military activities and (presumably) headed back to Bernicia. He didn't say that the BATTLE took place at Leodis. So Oswiu presumably defeated Penda at Winwaed, and then proceeded further south into northern Mercia to quell resistance.
Brilliant. Driving my bus around west Yorkshire I often wondered about the place name's. Amazing history of these islands. 😮 Greetings from St Oswald's.
Great tee shirt and great content. As for Wentworth I went there in the floods a few years ago and it was nearly up to the church. But as for early, very early history, we can only guess.
"...a similar lack of evidence..." That pretty much sums up the vast majority of Dark Ages battles. At least until you get to the Viking Age, and even then you still don't have a lot of evidence.
That's because most of the "Dark Ages" didn't exist and was invented by monks in the 11th and 12the centuries. Read E. Scott, "Guide to the Phantom Dark Ages".
I grew up in seacroft and have a huge interest in this subject. As i used to travel up to whinmoor and the surrounding areas i were always tempted to scan the areas with a metal detector even as far as Bardsey
I think it was at Whinmoor - I’m from Whinmoor and grew up there. When we were kids we’d camp out around Chippy’s quarry - all of us lads; guys who were campers. Sooo … possibly that’s where earlier generations of local lads spent time under canvas together - Campers Guys = Campus Gais 🤔
The coastline was very different back then, with a tidal marsh reaching quite close to Leeds. If the Aire and Caldwell were breaching their banks, the crossing at Castleford would have been deep under water, especially at high tide. Oswiu would have caught his enemies strung out along the raised causeway of Roman Ridge, surrounded by water and unable to go forwards.
The Wentbridge area, The Sayles, is also the location of the Geste of Robin Hood and is in Barnsdale Forest not Sherwood Forest. The Geste of Robin Hood is the oldest complete ballad of Robin Hood. It is set in the time of Edward II just after the revolt by Thomas Earl of Lancaster.
Hmmm, interesting, but your analysis relies upon the assumption that rivers and streams do not change their course. However, as a rowing historian I can say that this is not so. In the UK, rivers change their course frequently. For example, just three hundred years ago, the Thames had five different courses west of the city, the principal of which was the Bulstake stream which had a ferry across it, but which is nowadays not much bigger than the Cock Beck. I am not saying that the battle took place on the Cock Beck, but I am saying that the present day condition of the stream is not necessarily evidence of much at all. The key bit of evidence you should consider was that it had rained very heavily. Consider the recent flooding in England this last 12 months, and ask if this is what the chronicler meant. In that case, what is now a small stream, even if it had not changed course, could have drowned hundreds or thousands of men wearing armour. Good luck with your ongoing research.
Watch many of yer videos, glad to learn. Another way forward for you, perhaps, is teaching us about our names/surnames. Why are you Warr, why am I Winspear? Just an idea for you.
It's always tricky fathoming out the reality of that period. Bede, Nennius, and Gildas aren't the most reliable of sources, and maybe that's because they weren't historians in the same vein modern historians are. I wonder if history itself meant something different in those times, less a record of events and more like stories recorded for other purposes. Maybe not quite propaganda as we understand, but something along those lines - perhaps influenced by the style of history recorded by the Roman historians. But that whole period between the end of the Romano-British period to the late first millennium is fascinating - so much upheaval and change, kingdoms like Elmet and Rheged rising and falling into nothing more than myths and place names, the whole story of Anglo-Saxon settlement, great battles, legendary kings, a whole sweep of history centuries long - all lost now, recorded only orally, first as accounts, then as stories to slip into legend and myth, and then fashioned into something else altogether by venerable story compilers who we've mistaken for historians for a thousand years. In many respects you can imagine this period as an almost post-apocalyptic world, the order and relative peace of 300 years of Roman administration lost in an instant, falling into centuries of complex struggles for power, wealth, and simple survival, leaving behind a patchworked shroud over all those who lived in those times. History is a beautiful and romantic thing; a search for verity where little exists, an urge to connect with forebears we'll never know or understand, a need to find foundational stories upon which to set our modern feet. We'll never really know it, but perhaps that's the very reason we pursue it. Always good to see you put out new videos, Catherine - you seem to get history, that it's more of an evolving question than a quest for answers. Keep at it, lass.
The claimed and recorded number of men in each sides armies, must be overstated surely. The population of the British Isles could not repeatedly keep placing these numbers on the battlefield!
I think it's extremely important to acknowledge uncertainty as a component of knowledge. However, it can also be used as a bludgeon in acts of historical revisionism. I'm quite comfortable accepting established history and lore and naturally resistant to that limited certainty being undermined with conjecture which has no greater measure of certainty than that already established or proposed. How does the strength of Whinmoor's lore compare with the local lore of an alternative battle site, and if there is none, WHY is there none? In the absence of "it is written", there can still be something of value in "it is said". In Whinmoor's case, courtesy of Beade, there is both.
I think my main issue is the fact that the earliest written link between Whinmoor and Winwaed was from 1715, and that all of the legends can be traced back to one stroke of a pen.
Win-waed / wine-weed = berry-bushes, where the blue-berries grow. (ge-)waed can also mean garb/robe, wearing/clothing thus white-robe ? that can point to a baptising, inauguration or funeral (deathly garment/ shroud) in the aftermath of the battle. Or the enemy was surprised in the early morning still wearing only their night-robes , underwear ? dressing figurely translates as state, gestation, geste, gesture. maybe pointing to a peace-deal in the follow-up ?
5:19 'the languages spoken in britain at the time were all closely related' what do you mean by 'closely' here? welsh and old English are not what you'd normally call 'closely' related
@@CatherineWarr This would be very interesting to go into. I know the older or more traditional view is that there was almost no Brythonic brought in, and that you have basically the Romano-Celtic population that converted to speaking old English becoming the "English" and the same Romano-Celtic population but that never converted to old English (or only converted much later to middle or modern English) being the "Welsh" (or probably, with our Romano-Celtic hats on, the "Saxons" vs. the "Country-men".) I know that does not map to place names, where you have things intermixed within Yorkshire and not all converted to English name, e.g., you have Brythonic Pen-y-ghent right next to Old English Whernside.
Nobody in Leeds, or the rest of England for that matter spoke Welsh. There was no Anglo-Saxon invasion, the English people have been in Albion since the ice retreated. Anglo-Saxons are as mythical as the Celts.
Check the history of the Cock Beck. The battle of Towton. The beck was a river. A WIDE river when swollen. Why do you keep insisting that this battle was not fought at Whinmoor on the edges of the Cock Beck? After all, JUST COZ ONE BLOKE disputes what many who lived closer to the time claim doesn't make it so. 😜 So we all spoke Welsh or a form of, everywhere? The Old Kingdom of Elmet may well have been different. After all. The Romans couldn't conquer them!
CAN you rely on monks like Bead giving an accurate account of a battle was he even on the site . He's bound to be bias to the christian view . Even WW2 history is often inaccurate and there is many archival and contemporaries to consult . Although Medieval history can be interesting in terms of stories you have almost no chance of getting factual information . Imagine in the future if Historians came across Republican documents or other media and thought it was evidence . Still you have already covered the issues .
You think Democrat documents are any more reliable? The fact is there's ALWAYS a bias. Remember the old adage, "History is written by the Victor". By bringing up modern politics, you are showing a political bias yourself. Personally, I think it's important to see documents from all sides of an argument because then, somewhere in the middle you might just find the truth!
To be fair to Cath, that's why she's taking a multi-disciplinary approach - walking the ground and reviewing the etymology to see if the sources can be corroborated in any other way. If we had the budget, we'd need some archaeology along the Went and Cockbeck to see how they were in the 7th Century. It's possible that drainage and redirecting of water course during industrialisation have drastically changed their size. To be fair to Bede as well, he had some biases (coming from the northeast he always seemed to link every important event to that region), but he was fairly rigorous in his approach. His works contain referenced primary and secondary sources, for example. His is a lot closer to what we would recognise as a historian than, say, Geoffrey of Monmouth who includes a range of myths and legends in his work. Interestingly, Geoffrey of Monmouth's reference to Winwaed is almost identical to Bede (possibly got his info from Bede). However, Geoffrey specifically says that Penda's army crossed the Humber to get to the battle.
@@rfirth1 I did not mean to be unfair to Cath . i like her slightly alternative view challenging myths and looking for different aspects to the popular narrative . Many points I was making about Venerable Bede ect. came up in her narrative . Even in modern times myths have grown up around WW2 and other historical events and it's interesting to fid out more accurate details or lesser known stories and local history .
@@AnthonyBrown12324 absolutely a big eye opener for me was my A Level history teacher did his Masters on the logistics of the Battle of Towton. He calculated that the blacksmiths, farriers, fletchers, armourers, cooks, etc, etc needed to support a Yorkist army of the size it was supposed to be would have meant a wagon train that stretched nearly to London. But there's no record of it, either in archaeology or contemporary documents.
The Catholic church predates the Protestant church by well over a thousand years! The King James Bible was written in England in the 17thC well after the dissolution of the monasteries in the reign of Henry VIII. Before the Schism, England was devoutly Catholic so, yes, devout Christian because EVERYONE who was Christian was Catholic.
@PercyPruneMHDOIFandBars The vain babblings of a god eating satanist. You know the ones with 2 fake christs. One at the breast of Semiramis, the Babylonian goddess. The other still nailed to a cross. My Lord Jesus Christ reigns in glory in heaven.
This was probably the most relevant algorithm suggestion RUclips has ever given me. Subscribed without hesitation.
This video just turned up on my phone. Have now watched. Excellent work.
Am now subscribed and will be watching your previous output.
👏👍⚘🙂
Just watched several videos about Anglo Saxon rulers and battles but Catherine is more informative and detailed, a true Historian and virtual tour guide. 🏆
bonus 👍 for ducklings clip
Very interesting. I was reminded of all the drownings at the Battle of Tewkesbury, much later in time, but that was along part of the Severn, IIRC, which no one could accuse of being incapable of flooding. It's so interesting what you say about how history works and how the folk memory and the sources intertwine. Oswiu certainly is an interesting man and he must have been a hell of a leader to come back and overcome. I imagine his defeat of Penda changed the religious and political trajectory of the whole island, which just goes to show how finely balanced fate can be. Thank you for another fascinating video.
This is an excellent video. The development of the evidence, the points you want to make, and the video dovetail seamlessly. Expertly done!
Great vid. I live near Wentbridge. I can confirm that the river does get very flooded at certain times of the year. In some areas it is extensive and very deep. Not sure how likely it is for the site of the battle but in terms of the ‘flooded’ account it is very possible. Especially in the fields to the east of the village.
Excellent video, thanks a lot.
WOWIE ZOWIE 10,000 VIEWS!!! I'm so happy for you Catherine!!
It's all coming together!
*skelly cackle 💀
Just subscribed, great video (and shirt). Cheers from Virginia USA!
Love your videos - engaging and clearly well researched. Keep it up :)
Great video and yet another story i knew never existed....Thanks for the education 😁
“I’m too Saxon for my shirt” wow so cool
Also liked the sign behind the chair in the closing statement, "If you want the best seat in the house you'll have to move the CAT!!!" 😹😹
A'reyt Catherine. I was up near that area of Leeds a couple of weeks back and passed through Castleford. It would not be much to change to battle ford and Allerton Bywater, next to it, is in Leeds district and certainly can be flooded. I pass through Wentbridge regularly and it does not seem like the description. My money would be on the area between Allerton Bywater and Selby, which floods and look for the Roman road. The fact that the Roman bridge had broken, giving rise to the later Norman French named Pontefract would point at this too, to me.
Unlike some other commenters, I think of Saxons as folk down south and think more of Yorkshire's association with the later Norse settlers, who named much of it during the Danelaw. Alas poor Jorvik.
Another battle you might check out is the Battle of Brunanburh. I first saw Michael Wood's explanation on TV, then came across an article in the Society of Ancients newsletter that said it was at Bromborough on the Wirral, where my university wargames pal lived. A fellow RUclips commenter from Bromborough later mentioned it after I suggested some channels with videos on Vikings. He reckons they have found archeological evidence now.
I haven't git a clue about 'Campus Gai' but I wondered if it's a corruption of a roman camp that was dedicated to Caligula?
Dont worry, I'll see myself out...
@@NathanEllisBodi (sternface) Caligula was long deceased by the time any Romans had penetrated this far north. Shut the door behind you.
Ahh, lovely Catherine! A wonderful sight to see on a Sunday morning here in NZ!
This period is called the Dark Age for a reason you know. That's what makes it so fascinating. Still, a fascinating video about a battle I've never heard of. Thanks!
By the way, these events took place 1500 years ago, the landscape will have changed quite a bit. I love that shirt by the way!
Great informative video thanks.
Leeds was probably just a tiny hamlet hugging a ford over the Rive Aire in Saxon times. However, I thought initially Loidis meant the area north of the Aire and this might be true given the villages of Ledsham and Ledston to the East. Buried deep in the area that was once the Forest of Elmete, these are far closer to Castleford/Pontefract and the Aire/Calder confluence which even after 400 years of Industrial draining is still an boggy stretch.
Greetings from St Oswald's.
Where ya been? Not seen you in notifications for a while. Keep it going you are a great researcher.
Thank you - so interesting!
She is quite astute! As an investigator, I might look at ancient maps as the most plausible route of a march as everyone is walking or on horse, wagons…not easy. I might look at historical & scientific weather records … streams becoming rivers. I might look at any old artillery surveys and comments. Well done.
I hope to see you produce more videos on medieval battles in the future! ❤❤
The crossing of the river Went on the main Roman road sounds like a reasonable guess for the location of the battle, as many similar encounters throughout history are associated closely with this & parallel routes. These include, in the same era, the battle of Maeserfield, while in the 12 century there was the battle of the Standard, & in the Wars of the Roses Towton lies on this same route, (also involving many drownings in the Cock Beck). After this there are several events along the same route during the English Civil Wars, with the major battle of Marston Moor closely associated. Similarly, but elsewhere, Stamford Bridge was at the crossing of a river by a main Roman road, & even the Battle of Hastings was fought where the English attempted to block the Norman invaders progress along a major Roman route to London. In Bede the battle took place in the 'Regio Liodis', that is an area not a city location, & Leeds was not a 'city' in any case at that time. Liodis is thought to have been a subdivision of the former Kingdom of Elmet, which is located east of modern Leeds, with the placename Sherburn 'in Elmet' etc pinning it down. The Roman road here crosses the river Went, making this the most likely site of the ancient battle of Winwaed.
Why the importance of bridges, even over small creeks, is not the troops but the baggage train! Armies can only travel as fast as their supplies
I live in oswaldtwistle, a mile away is churchkirk. The only church church Saxon and Kirk viking. The story goes, that the army on its way back to Northumbria stopped at the well there and founded a church in memorial of st Oswald. The tongue of land belonging to Oswald, was it's defence land.
A breath of fresh air in history stuff, have you done one on the battle of Hatfield?
Love the t-shirt!
I want one!
I was just going to comment that..and then saw your comment! Yes, I definitely want one!
Yes but if she's a Yorkshire lass she would have been an Angle not a Saxon. For more Angles than Saxons. Don't forget us Angles!!!
@@RobertJackman Or a Viking, the danelaw and all that!
Or a Briton. Many Britons, perhaps the majority, were assimilated rather than slaughtered or driven out. My personal dna shows that I'm overwhelmingly Celt - Irish, Welsh and Scot.
Loved this. Great video! 👍
Love the T shirt as I am a Saxon at the very least by surname!
Great video too.
Crazy i'm just reading up on Penda and this pops up, great video!
I'm from nearby just up the beck on the towton battlefield, that beck has been connected to some crazy history regardless of the accuracy of bedes account - i have to say the went makes so muvh more sense.
Thank you x
thank you
Fascinating stuff! I hadn't heard of this. That portrait of Oswy is *amazing* - where is it from? It looks almost like a stained glass window?
It is! It's really hard to get images of people from this time as there's hardly any surviving paintings, so you're relying on stained glass windows or manuscripts...
"What this really shows (11:30)..." is that Early Medieval historical commentators (not proper historians, IMO) like to conjure up brilliant egocentric conclusions from an extreme paucity of reality, few primary sources and much imagination. I loved your style as an evidential historian. Subscribed.
I feel there is a solution to the location of this battle which bears no reference to Leeds. It may be that Bede's 'Leodis' was a mistaken form of LUGOVALIUM. I.E. Carlisle, not Leeds. Caer Gai could well be a mistaken form of CAER MAIS, the Roman fortress at Bowness, at the western termination of Hadrian's Wall. And the 'Winwaed' was an alternate version of SULWADE, i.e. The SOLWAY FORTH. 'Sulwade' is a Norse name and means some thing like 'the southern (sul) WADE'. Meaning a river so shallow it was used as a FORD, where people would regularly wade across it. If The Battle of Winwaed (or possibly more correctly 'Winwade'??) took place on the SOLWAY, possibly at Caer Mais, at Hadrian's Wall's western terminal, a flash flood caused by heavy rain upstream COULD INDEED be responsible for washing away many thousands of men who were fighting in the flood plain.
The location of Leeds for the battle is derived solely from the mention of Leodis (Leeds). But if Oswiu was in the farthest northern part of his kingdom, this would place him somewhere in the region of EDINBURGH wouldn't it? That's to the north of the Solway. Therefore if Penda marched up to Edinburgh fought a battle and dealt Oswiu a blow, then was caught by a resurgent Oswiu whilst marching back south, Penda would be presumably using THE MAIN INVASION ROUTE used by both Scotland and England in their invasions of the other's territory for centuries - crossing the Solway, by fording it, around the vicinity of Carlisle. There is even a stone monument on the foreshore of the Solway in this very vicinity, dedicated to King Edward I, at Burgh (another of the Roman forts along Hadrian's Wall) at the place where he camped with his forces before wading across the Solway ('Winwade'???) in 1306. This was the place Edward chose to WADE across the Solway to fight the Scots. Penda would have presumably taken exactly the same route to head up to Dun Eideann (Edinburgh) which was, at that time, not in 'Scotland' (or it's precedent) but was the most northerly part of Bernicia, that is to say NORTHUMBRIA.
Very interesting theory! Lots to consider there. I agree that the connection to Leeds is rather ropey - a singular mention in a chronicle written 70 years later by someone who wasn't there and wasn't from the area...
@@CatherineWarr In addition, 1) The name Winwaed is supposed to derive from 'win' (meaning struggle, strife and battle, and is the origin of our word 'win' -meaning 'victory') and 'wade' - meaning to wade or ford. Therefore the name itself would be an entirely appropriate term to describe the main invasion route between 'England' and 'Scotland'. A modern interpolation of it could be 'The ford of victory'/'The ford of battle'/' The ford of campaign' etc.
2) Bede only stated that Oswiu's campaign ENDED at Leodis (Leeds) indicating the time when he ceased military activities and (presumably) headed back to Bernicia. He didn't say that the BATTLE took place at Leodis. So Oswiu presumably defeated Penda at Winwaed, and then proceeded further south into northern Mercia to quell resistance.
Brilliant. Driving my bus around west Yorkshire I often wondered about the place name's. Amazing history of these islands. 😮 Greetings from St Oswald's.
Very good
Good video Cath. thanks. I like the Anglo Saxon. (still like the tee shirt too)
I love this age of history ty c
Great tee shirt and great content. As for Wentworth I went there in the floods a few years ago and it was nearly up to the church. But as for early, very early history, we can only guess.
"...a similar lack of evidence..." That pretty much sums up the vast majority of Dark Ages battles. At least until you get to the Viking Age, and even then you still don't have a lot of evidence.
That's because most of the "Dark Ages" didn't exist and was invented by monks in the 11th and 12the centuries. Read E. Scott, "Guide to the Phantom Dark Ages".
I grew up in seacroft and have a huge interest in this subject. As i used to travel up to whinmoor and the surrounding areas i were always tempted to scan the areas with a metal detector even as far as Bardsey
I have NEVER even heard of this battle. I think you just made up this entire battle out of your head.
I think it was at Whinmoor - I’m from Whinmoor and grew up there. When we were kids we’d camp out around Chippy’s quarry - all of us lads; guys who were campers. Sooo … possibly that’s where earlier generations of local lads spent time under canvas together - Campers Guys = Campus Gais 🤔
Fantastic Jacket
The coastline was very different back then, with a tidal marsh reaching quite close to Leeds.
If the Aire and Caldwell were breaching their banks, the crossing at Castleford would have been deep under water, especially at high tide.
Oswiu would have caught his enemies strung out along the raised causeway of Roman Ridge, surrounded by water and unable to go forwards.
Basically “Northumberland” is the Old English/Anglo-Saxon for Northern England. I’m always surprised that NO One seems to mention this tbh…
The Wentbridge area, The Sayles, is also the location of the Geste of Robin Hood and is in Barnsdale Forest not Sherwood Forest. The Geste of Robin Hood is the oldest complete ballad of Robin Hood. It is set in the time of Edward II just after the revolt by Thomas Earl of Lancaster.
Hmmm, interesting, but your analysis relies upon the assumption that rivers and streams do not change their course. However, as a rowing historian I can say that this is not so. In the UK, rivers change their course frequently. For example, just three hundred years ago, the Thames had five different courses west of the city, the principal of which was the Bulstake stream which had a ferry across it, but which is nowadays not much bigger than the Cock Beck. I am not saying that the battle took place on the Cock Beck, but I am saying that the present day condition of the stream is not necessarily evidence of much at all. The key bit of evidence you should consider was that it had rained very heavily. Consider the recent flooding in England this last 12 months, and ask if this is what the chronicler meant. In that case, what is now a small stream, even if it had not changed course, could have drowned hundreds or thousands of men wearing armour. Good luck with your ongoing research.
Watch many of yer videos, glad to learn.
Another way forward for you, perhaps, is teaching us about our names/surnames.
Why are you Warr, why am I Winspear? Just an idea for you.
Good idea, but with the last name Orear? Frankly I don't want to know.
NGL I followed you on twitter thought you were that posh southern woman should have realised from the @ but I'm enjoying this
Penda is believed to have been 80 years old when he was killed,, he was certainly very old for the time, judging from the date of his earlier battles
Well, that was unexpectably nice. Have a subscribe n like.
It's always tricky fathoming out the reality of that period. Bede, Nennius, and Gildas aren't the most reliable of sources, and maybe that's because they weren't historians in the same vein modern historians are. I wonder if history itself meant something different in those times, less a record of events and more like stories recorded for other purposes. Maybe not quite propaganda as we understand, but something along those lines - perhaps influenced by the style of history recorded by the Roman historians.
But that whole period between the end of the Romano-British period to the late first millennium is fascinating - so much upheaval and change, kingdoms like Elmet and Rheged rising and falling into nothing more than myths and place names, the whole story of Anglo-Saxon settlement, great battles, legendary kings, a whole sweep of history centuries long - all lost now, recorded only orally, first as accounts, then as stories to slip into legend and myth, and then fashioned into something else altogether by venerable story compilers who we've mistaken for historians for a thousand years.
In many respects you can imagine this period as an almost post-apocalyptic world, the order and relative peace of 300 years of Roman administration lost in an instant, falling into centuries of complex struggles for power, wealth, and simple survival, leaving behind a patchworked shroud over all those who lived in those times.
History is a beautiful and romantic thing; a search for verity where little exists, an urge to connect with forebears we'll never know or understand, a need to find foundational stories upon which to set our modern feet. We'll never really know it, but perhaps that's the very reason we pursue it.
Always good to see you put out new videos, Catherine - you seem to get history, that it's more of an evolving question than a quest for answers. Keep at it, lass.
Thought provoking. 😊
Anyone else find Nennius a depressing old git?
The claimed and recorded number of men in each sides armies, must be overstated surely. The population of the British Isles could not repeatedly keep placing these numbers on the battlefield!
What a great video, I had never heard about any of this before, great to know
Always love your stories and facts. But haven’t you done any for a while.
I think it's extremely important to acknowledge uncertainty as a component of knowledge. However, it can also be used as a bludgeon in acts of historical revisionism.
I'm quite comfortable accepting established history and lore and naturally resistant to that limited certainty being undermined with conjecture which has no greater measure of certainty than that already established or proposed.
How does the strength of Whinmoor's lore compare with the local lore of an alternative battle site, and if there is none, WHY is there none? In the absence of "it is written", there can still be something of value in "it is said". In Whinmoor's case, courtesy of Beade, there is both.
I think my main issue is the fact that the earliest written link between Whinmoor and Winwaed was from 1715, and that all of the legends can be traced back to one stroke of a pen.
Win-waed / wine-weed = berry-bushes, where the blue-berries grow.
(ge-)waed can also mean garb/robe, wearing/clothing thus white-robe ?
that can point to a baptising, inauguration or funeral (deathly garment/
shroud) in the aftermath of the battle. Or the enemy was surprised in the
early morning still wearing only their night-robes , underwear ?
dressing figurely translates as state, gestation, geste, gesture.
maybe pointing to a peace-deal in the follow-up ?
Deira …. Named because of the Irish influence from St Aiden..?
Me again some rivers are not what they used to be due to water abstraction
nice cat!
5:19 'the languages spoken in britain at the time were all closely related' what do you mean by 'closely' here? welsh and old English are not what you'd normally call 'closely' related
They all share Brythonic roots
@@CatherineWarr This would be very interesting to go into. I know the older or more traditional view is that there was almost no Brythonic brought in, and that you have basically the Romano-Celtic population that converted to speaking old English becoming the "English" and the same Romano-Celtic population but that never converted to old English (or only converted much later to middle or modern English) being the "Welsh" (or probably, with our Romano-Celtic hats on, the "Saxons" vs. the "Country-men".) I know that does not map to place names, where you have things intermixed within Yorkshire and not all converted to English name, e.g., you have Brythonic Pen-y-ghent right next to Old English Whernside.
@@CatherineWarr many place-names may, but the languages themselves do not
Whats the archaeology say? Battles are messy.
There isn't any that I know of. No large scale excavation has taken place because nobody knows where to look.
👍🏻
Ah the crap Yorkshire weather plays it's part in the outcome of a battle once more
Nobody in Leeds, or the rest of England for that matter spoke Welsh.
There was no Anglo-Saxon invasion, the English people have been in Albion since the ice retreated.
Anglo-Saxons are as mythical as the Celts.
Check the history of the Cock Beck. The battle of Towton.
The beck was a river. A WIDE river when swollen.
Why do you keep insisting that this battle was not fought at Whinmoor on the edges of the Cock Beck?
After all, JUST COZ ONE BLOKE disputes what many who lived closer to the time claim doesn't make it so. 😜
So we all spoke Welsh or a form of, everywhere?
The Old Kingdom of Elmet may well have been different.
After all. The Romans couldn't conquer them!
Why are you so emotionally attached to the idea that Winwaed was at Whinmoor? You have failed to provide any evidence that it took place there.
CAN you rely on monks like Bead giving an accurate account of a battle was he even on the site . He's bound to be bias to the christian view . Even WW2 history is often inaccurate and there is many archival and contemporaries to consult . Although Medieval history can be interesting in terms of stories you have almost no chance of getting factual information . Imagine in the future if Historians came across Republican documents or other media and thought it was evidence . Still you have already covered the issues .
You think Democrat documents are any more reliable?
The fact is there's ALWAYS a bias. Remember the old adage, "History is written by the Victor".
By bringing up modern politics, you are showing a political bias yourself. Personally, I think it's important to see documents from all sides of an argument because then, somewhere in the middle you might just find the truth!
By the way, it's the Venerable Bede, not Bead.
To be fair to Cath, that's why she's taking a multi-disciplinary approach - walking the ground and reviewing the etymology to see if the sources can be corroborated in any other way. If we had the budget, we'd need some archaeology along the Went and Cockbeck to see how they were in the 7th Century. It's possible that drainage and redirecting of water course during industrialisation have drastically changed their size.
To be fair to Bede as well, he had some biases (coming from the northeast he always seemed to link every important event to that region), but he was fairly rigorous in his approach. His works contain referenced primary and secondary sources, for example. His is a lot closer to what we would recognise as a historian than, say, Geoffrey of Monmouth who includes a range of myths and legends in his work.
Interestingly, Geoffrey of Monmouth's reference to Winwaed is almost identical to Bede (possibly got his info from Bede). However, Geoffrey specifically says that Penda's army crossed the Humber to get to the battle.
@@rfirth1 I did not mean to be unfair to Cath . i like her slightly alternative view challenging myths and looking for different aspects to the popular narrative . Many points I was making about Venerable Bede ect. came up in her narrative . Even in modern times myths have grown up around WW2 and other historical events and it's interesting to fid out more accurate details or lesser known stories and local history .
@@AnthonyBrown12324 absolutely a big eye opener for me was my A Level history teacher did his Masters on the logistics of the Battle of Towton. He calculated that the blacksmiths, farriers, fletchers, armourers, cooks, etc, etc needed to support a Yorkist army of the size it was supposed to be would have meant a wagon train that stretched nearly to London. But there's no record of it, either in archaeology or contemporary documents.
Such a battle should have left enough traces for archaeologists to identify at least the period.
Oswald . A devout Christian ? or a Roman catholic ? The latter I suggest. There's nothing in my King James Bible regarding monasteries.
The Catholic church predates the Protestant church by well over a thousand years! The King James Bible was written in England in the 17thC well after the dissolution of the monasteries in the reign of Henry VIII.
Before the Schism, England was devoutly Catholic so, yes, devout Christian because EVERYONE who was Christian was Catholic.
@PercyPruneMHDOIFandBars
The vain babblings of a god eating satanist. You know the ones with 2 fake christs.
One at the breast of Semiramis, the Babylonian goddess.
The other still nailed to a cross.
My Lord Jesus Christ reigns in glory in heaven.