The history of the universe in Star Trek is indeed vast and increasingly complex as time progresses. So much that could be explored. I look forward to seeing how this timeline series continues.
Great video! I really like that you reference the star trek series or movies where this information is revealed. Then I can rewatch those episodes connecting the new and old series as a whole story
Our own knowledge of history on Earth as far as mankind is concerned is just over 2 million years - not even the blink of an eye in the history of our planet let alone the universe. Well done on creating a relatable scale to such an incredible amount of time. It’s a great marriage of fact and fiction.
well, 15 billion years from the big bang until now is a really short time in comparison to the possible infinite age of the universe. i mean we live in the absolute perfect time where there are enough stars, planets and galaxies to explore and settle upon. i hope that humanity will make it a reality someday. we could even be the first intelligent life form in the whole universe, who knows?
LOL first intelligent life. 15 billions years of the known universe. And you think you just happen to be born in the fraction of a fraction of that time, where your type of life just happened to be the first intelligent kind. Do you really not understand how extraordinary arrogant that is? 200 billion galaxies at the barest minimum estimate. 100 billion stars in each. Minimum 300 million habitable planets in each galaxy. And billions of years for life to have started in any of them, and yet you think YOU might be the first intelligent species EVER, in any of them. Ok
There was an alternative cosmological theory that hydrogen atoms were continually popping into existence spaced throughout the universe as it expands resulting in a more or less constant average density and process of galaxy and star formation. This now seems ruled out at least within the visible universe however if the expansion of space time really does exceed the speed of light at separations beyond ten billion light-years or so then a very small but nonzero fraction of all virtual particle pairs popping into existence would be permanently separated and avoid mutual annihilation. This may be what the source of the big bang was and while the distances would be quite extreme there could be other light cones with their own big bangs within reach of a sufficiently advanced civilization. Hopefully with very similar or identical physical laws.
I am happy to see that you have included lore and content from the animated Star Trek series. Are you familiar with the FASA (now defunct) Star Trek RPG? It had fabulous information (in my opinion) in its sourcebooks regarding the Orions, Klingons, Romulans, and the prehistory of the Milky Way Galaxy. Looking forward to part 2 of the ST timeline.
Loved it! One addition: When Q took Picard back to the primordial earth in the final TNG episode and showed him how the enterprise had stopped evolution.
The slavers and the cat like aliens from the cartoon are from Larry Nivens known space series. If anyone wants to learn more about that aspect of the trek universe it barrowed you should read Nivens books. World of Ptavvs it a good one to start if you want to learn about the slaver empire.
If you can I highly recommend the Star Trek book trilogy “the Q continuum”. Q takes Picard on a journey through Q’s past and It involves many of the ancient relics mentioned. Great read!
I like that you reminded us of the paradox of sufficiently advanced tech will look like magic to a less advanced species. Reminds me of a recent short story I was reading from a Pulp Fiction-esc publication, it was written from the point of view of one of the less advanced species for half of the story then from the point of view of the more advanced species. Essentially because the more advanced species is biomechanically enhanced and there are few physical markers of this the less advanced species mistakes the other for being some kind of metaphysical entities or gods. Reality is their tech is crazy advanced but still limited to processing power of data and the human (cause turns out they are the humans) brain's ability to assimilate the data so when they stare off and their eyes glow for a few seconds then snap out of it and know something in great detail they didn't a second before as their eyes stop glowing what is really happening is they are accessing a HUD projected on their retina using organic nano LEDs in the eye's fluid making a visual display.
9:49- according to Larry Niven's Known Space lore, the Slavers were brought down by a race called the Tnuctipun. The stasis box from the animated ep. 'Slaver Weapon' actually being of Tnuctipun, not Slaver origin as presumed, and likely belonged to a spy.
I think there is clear connection between Guardian of Forever, T'Kon (Icon?) Portal 63 from TNG, Iconians/Slavers, Ancient Humanoids/Preservers, Machine Race/Federation and Borg Transwarp Network (Borg was created by V'Ger).
I swear, after all the bs on my notifications, I am always happy to hear your voice and videos Brother. Always have been and always will be a fan. Always enjoyable entertainment
I have several suggestions for cultural index videos from a variety of new and old sci-fi series. It'd be great if you ever did any on these @CertifiablyIngame!: -Taelons, Jaridians, Humans, Atavus, Skrill (Earth: Final Conflict) -Minbari, Centauri, Earth Alliance, Narn, Vorlons, Shadows, etc. (Babylon 5) -Tenctonese (Alien Nation) -Chiggs, Invitros, Silicates, Humans (Space: Above and Beyond) -Kanamit (Twilight Zone: “To Serve Man”) -Visitors (V) -Robotic Humans (BBC Humans) -Castithans, Irathients, Indogenes, Sensoth, Liberata, Gulanee, Volge, Omec (Defiance) -Krogmags (Sliders) -Dune cultures -Farscape cultures -Stargate cultures -Any cultures mentioned in “Another Life”. -Each specific ethnic group of the 12 colonies of Kobal based on Zodiac signs (Battlestar Galactica Reboot) -Any cultures mentioned in “Andromeda”. -Precardians (Time Trax) -Native beings on Earth 2 (Earth 2)
Either the Great Kuala or the Nibblonians started the Big Bang. Wait a second, Kuala? The Furlings started the big bang, then evolved, like the ancients
Outstanding, I love this... yes I know Discovery and Strange New Worlds and Picard and stuff will be part of it, but that's fine, you also included TAS, so it's a fair cop ;)
@@andrewblanchard2398 did you.... actually watch Strange New Worlds? Cuz unlike Discovery and Picard it actually feels pretty thoroughly like classic Trek
@@Jeddostotle7, nothing wrong with Discovery or Picard either, besides Season 2 of Picard. They all still have the core framework of Star Trek shows whether people like the stories or not, I'm happy with Discovery due to pushing the series forward in time, we're always wanting to see how far the tech advances in these shows that go into new territory. As long as these shows tell all kinds of stories and some stories that push bigots or others to rethink their views and ideology so that we can have a world with no money,class,poverty and bigotry, like all the series have since the TOS, I'll be fine with the show.
@@weightlifting_socialist Eh, Iunno, I don't think they're travesties like the chuds think, but I don't think they're particularly good either (at least for Discovery's earlier seasons, it does seem to have been getting better). Just kinda that typical overdramatic, overserialized stuff without particularly great writing or particularly great need to have been a serialized story you see a ton of these days, in lieu of really good episodic stuff.
Looking forward to watching the rest of this! Something about your delivery at 4:20 cracked me up though xD "What-ever. life. was. like. in this time..." Sounded like a ship's computer for a second
The Doctor (Dr. Who): People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff. Good luck Rick! You'll need it for covering the history of Star Trek.
Great video, as always, but... if you want error feedback (on something that really won't matter for most viewers) at 3:30 you said "9 billion year later" not "9 billion years ago" which I presume is what you meant, unless I misunderstood the context.
It's both. A single point that expanded into everywhere simultaneously and continuously. Not only is the distance between galaxies expanding, so too is the space between atoms, and even the distance between electrons and even the nucleus. Once the distances become too great to translate physical properties will be when matter itself dissolves and all energy even ends. The universe from this point is a total unknown. The big rip, big crunch or big chill awaits.
The Voth come later, as the species they come from start evolving on Earth 240 MIllion years ago (MYA) and leave Earth circa 65 MYA. The subjects of the video happen in the order of billions of years ago.
The time line is weird... Some humanoid species are older than others, all well and good, but the odds of there being no incredibly advanced humanoids considering humanoid origins is just.. incredible. Others shoukd have risen before those we see.
I stress it is a speculation. But Star Trek has protoculture. Guardians of Forever (and Borg transwarp network) were created by T'Kon Empire, what terraformed numerous planets in the entire galaxy. When T'Kon challenged Q, it threaten stability of space time. As such they own machines rebelled against them and T'Kon capital Iconia was destroyed by orbital bombardment. But Iconians did not die. Some survived in alternative dimensions. But most was teleported around various planets, before system crashed and lost they knowledge. Those were first Humanoids. Over milenia they evolved into new species, but until discovery of Picard most assumed that they evolved naturally.
In the continuum book series.. Q takes Picard back to when he was born... Q meddles with quarks and muons changing their polarity, he gets chastised by the continuum who were watching him... This was supposedly at the start, the birth of the Universe. Giving Q an age of at least 16 billion years when he "died" of old age. But also note that this is when Picards Q was born and there already existed Q elders at this point...
If I remember correctly from reading 'A Universe from Nothing, there shouldn't have been anything resembling civilization even possible (past maybe energy beings) for a good while so I wonder how people would try to fit that in with the Trek timeline.
"...subspace IS kinda what existed before the big bang and is being overwritten by the laws of our universe, pushing those layers deeper." Please tell me there's going to be a video on this!
I think its cool that you included "Magus 2" and "The Slavers" (from probably the 2nd best episode of the original Animated Series, and a separate story by Larry Niven, a favorite author of my youth 😄). However, I'm guessing that this is 'Beta Canon' (as in not recognized by 'official' resources). Although you'll have to pardon me for saying that what is and isn't 'Official' Canon has become a bit muddied since the premier of "Discovery' 😏
Larry Niven did write the episode about the Slavers - Rick left out that they conquered the galaxy because they had the means to telepathically control other beings. Kind of hard to fight that. Their technology wasn't very advanced, once they took over a smarter race, they didn't need to invent things but could make their slaves do it for them.
This'll probably be your most extensive series yet! As a huge Star Trek fan, I am so looking for it to this!
The history of the universe in Star Trek is indeed vast and increasingly complex as time progresses. So much that could be explored. I look forward to seeing how this timeline series continues.
“The other reason is I am lazy.”
Truer words have never been spoken.
Galaxy Quest: "Activate the Omega 13!"
Star Trek: "Hey, that's cool!"
Galaxy Quest, shakes head: "We were making fun of you."
Great video! I really like that you reference the star trek series or movies where this information is revealed. Then I can rewatch those episodes connecting the new and old series as a whole story
There is one race missing: The Travelers from TNG. You know, the ones which took Wesley Crusher with them.
“Because I am lazy” love it. Work smarter not harder!
I hope the STO playthrough isn't over, but I'll love this series too.
Our own knowledge of history on Earth as far as mankind is concerned is just over 2 million years - not even the blink of an eye in the history of our planet let alone the universe. Well done on creating a relatable scale to such an incredible amount of time.
It’s a great marriage of fact and fiction.
I'm against fact and fiction marriages!
I never knew I always wanted this my entire life until now thank you RUclips algorithm.
2:16 An Oberth class explodes, just because
Finally not a history timeline of the production of the show or watch order
well, 15 billion years from the big bang until now is a really short time in comparison to the possible infinite age of the universe. i mean we live in the absolute perfect time where there are enough stars, planets and galaxies to explore and settle upon. i hope that humanity will make it a reality someday. we could even be the first intelligent life form in the whole universe, who knows?
We live in the "perfect time" for *us*.
Stephen Baxter's Xeelee andd Photino Birds would disagree.
LOL first intelligent life. 15 billions years of the known universe. And you think you just happen to be born in the fraction of a fraction of that time, where your type of life just happened to be the first intelligent kind. Do you really not understand how extraordinary arrogant that is? 200 billion galaxies at the barest minimum estimate. 100 billion stars in each. Minimum 300 million habitable planets in each galaxy. And billions of years for life to have started in any of them, and yet you think YOU might be the first intelligent species EVER, in any of them. Ok
@@jamesbizs You read a whole lot in to a 'could' and 'who knows' generic statement...
There was an alternative cosmological theory that hydrogen atoms were continually popping into existence spaced throughout the universe as it expands resulting in a more or less constant average density and process of galaxy and star formation. This now seems ruled out at least within the visible universe however if the expansion of space time really does exceed the speed of light at separations beyond ten billion light-years or so then a very small but nonzero fraction of all virtual particle pairs popping into existence would be permanently separated and avoid mutual annihilation. This may be what the source of the big bang was and while the distances would be quite extreme there could be other light cones with their own big bangs within reach of a sufficiently advanced civilization. Hopefully with very similar or identical physical laws.
Humanity is not intelligent.. We can breath, eat and shit and reproduce , that makes us a living organism, far from intelligent.
I am happy to see that you have included lore and content from the animated Star Trek series. Are you familiar with the FASA (now defunct) Star Trek RPG? It had fabulous information (in my opinion) in its sourcebooks regarding the Orions, Klingons, Romulans, and the prehistory of the Milky Way Galaxy. Looking forward to part 2 of the ST timeline.
Loved it! One addition: When Q took Picard back to the primordial earth in the final TNG episode and showed him how the enterprise had stopped evolution.
That is the anti-time eruption that was mentioned.
The slavers and the cat like aliens from the cartoon are from Larry Nivens known space series. If anyone wants to learn more about that aspect of the trek universe it barrowed you should read Nivens books. World of Ptavvs it a good one to start if you want to learn about the slaver empire.
If you can I highly recommend the Star Trek book trilogy “the Q continuum”. Q takes Picard on a journey through Q’s past and It involves many of the ancient relics mentioned. Great read!
I like that you reminded us of the paradox of sufficiently advanced tech will look like magic to a less advanced species. Reminds me of a recent short story I was reading from a Pulp Fiction-esc publication, it was written from the point of view of one of the less advanced species for half of the story then from the point of view of the more advanced species. Essentially because the more advanced species is biomechanically enhanced and there are few physical markers of this the less advanced species mistakes the other for being some kind of metaphysical entities or gods. Reality is their tech is crazy advanced but still limited to processing power of data and the human (cause turns out they are the humans) brain's ability to assimilate the data so when they stare off and their eyes glow for a few seconds then snap out of it and know something in great detail they didn't a second before as their eyes stop glowing what is really happening is they are accessing a HUD projected on their retina using organic nano LEDs in the eye's fluid making a visual display.
Enjoyed the video and looking forward to the rest of the series!
9:49- according to Larry Niven's Known Space lore, the Slavers were brought down by a race called the Tnuctipun. The stasis box from the animated ep. 'Slaver Weapon' actually being of Tnuctipun, not Slaver origin as presumed, and likely belonged to a spy.
Yup. It is rather obvious in modern lore that Slavers were Iconians.
Great video as always. I've always been interested to know more about the Iconians and their gateways
I think there is clear connection between Guardian of Forever, T'Kon (Icon?) Portal 63 from TNG, Iconians/Slavers, Ancient Humanoids/Preservers, Machine Race/Federation and Borg Transwarp Network (Borg was created by V'Ger).
I swear, after all the bs on my notifications, I am always happy to hear your voice and videos Brother. Always have been and always will be a fan. Always enjoyable entertainment
Brilliant I love this series already. Thank you so much! I have been missing your STO episodes a lot
Fantastic story telling of the lore, looking forward to the next episode.
I have several suggestions for cultural index videos from a variety of new and old sci-fi series. It'd be great if you ever did any on these @CertifiablyIngame!:
-Taelons, Jaridians, Humans, Atavus, Skrill (Earth: Final Conflict)
-Minbari, Centauri, Earth Alliance, Narn, Vorlons, Shadows, etc. (Babylon 5)
-Tenctonese (Alien Nation)
-Chiggs, Invitros, Silicates, Humans (Space: Above and Beyond)
-Kanamit (Twilight Zone: “To Serve Man”)
-Visitors (V)
-Robotic Humans (BBC Humans)
-Castithans, Irathients, Indogenes, Sensoth, Liberata, Gulanee, Volge, Omec (Defiance)
-Krogmags (Sliders)
-Dune cultures
-Farscape cultures
-Stargate cultures
-Any cultures mentioned in “Another Life”.
-Each specific ethnic group of the 12 colonies of Kobal based on Zodiac signs (Battlestar Galactica Reboot)
-Any cultures mentioned in “Andromeda”.
-Precardians (Time Trax)
-Native beings on Earth 2 (Earth 2)
I see a fellow human of culture
I underestimated trek as a sw fan.
Impressive timeline. Need more of this.
Im very happy the blessed algorithm suggested this channel to me
Either the Great Kuala or the Nibblonians started the Big Bang.
Wait a second, Kuala? The Furlings started the big bang, then evolved, like the ancients
Since the Voth are from Earth, do they share the same genetic key fragment that humans have from the progenitors?
Thank you Rick, I'm looking forward to the eest of this series
Thanks Rick your always a pleasure you have such a relaxing voice.
Cool vid can't wait to see you play the latest STO mission
Outstanding, I love this... yes I know Discovery and Strange New Worlds and Picard and stuff will be part of it, but that's fine, you also included TAS, so it's a fair cop ;)
What's wrong with Strange New Worlds?
@@Jeddostotle7
EVERYTHING'S WRONG WITH
KURTZMAN DREK
@@andrewblanchard2398 did you.... actually watch Strange New Worlds? Cuz unlike Discovery and Picard it actually feels pretty thoroughly like classic Trek
@@Jeddostotle7, nothing wrong with Discovery or Picard either, besides Season 2 of Picard. They all still have the core framework of Star Trek shows whether people like the stories or not, I'm happy with Discovery due to pushing the series forward in time, we're always wanting to see how far the tech advances in these shows that go into new territory. As long as these shows tell all kinds of stories and some stories that push bigots or others to rethink their views and ideology so that we can have a world with no money,class,poverty and bigotry, like all the series have since the TOS, I'll be fine with the show.
@@weightlifting_socialist Eh, Iunno, I don't think they're travesties like the chuds think, but I don't think they're particularly good either (at least for Discovery's earlier seasons, it does seem to have been getting better). Just kinda that typical overdramatic, overserialized stuff without particularly great writing or particularly great need to have been a serialized story you see a ton of these days, in lieu of really good episodic stuff.
Looking forward to watching the rest of this!
Something about your delivery at 4:20 cracked me up though xD
"What-ever. life. was. like. in this time..." Sounded like a ship's computer for a second
I am definitely here for this Timeline series! Thank you for this! 🖖🏻
It will be interesting to see how this series evolves as Trek does
Unfortunately star trek is dead, the story ended when kurtzman decided to kill off the cannon timeline
I love the "history of the future" of Trek lore and this vid is no exception.
Another great video thanks, God's creation truly is awesome
I like multi-part videos. Glad this isn't one hour long video.
In the beginning there was darkness, 2 gods and an annoyed Capitan
Before the Big Bang is the favorite hiding spot of Quinn from the Q Continuum
Thanks for taking the time for researching and making this video.
so, this is an attempt to shoe horn everything from every Star Trek into a singular - of sorts - timeline.
I can't say that I envy you this task.
I love the guy who does these videos
Amazing job on the video!
Really looking forward to this. Great video
Cant wait to see how you deal with the Temporal Cold War and the timeline mess it made, along with creation of alternate universes.
Really thrilled you're doing this!
WoW, youre good at this. Somehow youre weaving the narrative comes trough better in this then in fact ridden techonology explanation videos.
I miss this kind of lore for fictional worlds
You should be the voice of the next mass effect codex.
Wow that I am lazy line made me cry laughing 😂beautifuly done sire
The Doctor (Dr. Who): People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
Good luck Rick! You'll need it for covering the history of Star Trek.
"the other reason is that I'm lazy" Love it :)
Great video, as always!!! Thank you for doing what you do!!! 👍👍👍
Interesting video. Must have taken you along time to compile. Good work!👍
_TOTALLY_ enjoyed it! Thank you, _Kiptin!_ lol! \m/
It must be time consuming to put everything together.
respect
🖖
Fantastic! Looking forward to this series.
Now this is a "small", but excellent topic. Have at it
yesssss im glad you are covering Megas Tu very bonza awesomes m8,
Great review
Great video, as always, but... if you want error feedback (on something that really won't matter for most viewers) at 3:30 you said "9 billion year later" not "9 billion years ago" which I presume is what you meant, unless I misunderstood the context.
I have been waiting for this!
waiting for a 1 hour part 2 lol
I WANT EVERYTHING!!!
I seem to recall that the Redjac entity claimed to be eternal, and had existed at the very beginning of the universe and would outlive it;s end.
This is great stuff!
Subspace being the universe that existed before the Big Bang, being slowly overwritten by it, is a damn fascinating theory.
In the real world the big bang wasn't a single point, but rather was everywhere. The Star Trek universe does seem to have a physical edge though.
It's both. A single point that expanded into everywhere simultaneously and continuously.
Not only is the distance between galaxies expanding, so too is the space between atoms, and even the distance between electrons and even the nucleus.
Once the distances become too great to translate physical properties will be when matter itself dissolves and all energy even ends.
The universe from this point is a total unknown.
The big rip, big crunch or big chill awaits.
To simplify.
It was everywhere, and in the beginning was a single, it's still that point, it's just expanding.
?(I dunno of that's simplified...)
@@damenwhelan3236 no, there's no evidence for it having ever been a single point
Great start. I look forward to the rest. I'm curious where the Cytherians fall in this timeline. Maybe the don't exist til later?
You forgot the Voth.
Other than that, thanks for remembering the Kzinti, and I have to reawatch your video on subspace predating the Big Bang.
The Voth come later, as the species they come from start evolving on Earth 240 MIllion years ago (MYA) and leave Earth circa 65 MYA. The subjects of the video happen in the order of billions of years ago.
hello Captain Admiral Rik its a Huge massive universe with so much Lore Trekkies need refreshing memory Alpha
Nice timeline. I am also writing a timeline for a novel that is involved like Star Trek. Good job. :)
I enjoyed it eminencely.
Oh damn... Here we go.
looking forward to the others.
Awww part one? I wish I'd been further along the timeline so I could binge the episodes 🙄😂
Love those vids; thanks m8
Awesome idea for a series
exelent video.
Thank you
Ambitious...
Well this will be interesting to watch :)
I'm expecting to hear in the next episode about the dinosaurs of ancient Earth whose descendants Voyager meets
Good video
NOW we're talking, or rather you are, Rick! 😆
The time line is weird...
Some humanoid species are older than others, all well and good, but the odds of there being no incredibly advanced humanoids considering humanoid origins is just.. incredible.
Others shoukd have risen before those we see.
I stress it is a speculation. But Star Trek has protoculture. Guardians of Forever (and Borg transwarp network) were created by T'Kon Empire, what terraformed numerous planets in the entire galaxy. When T'Kon challenged Q, it threaten stability of space time. As such they own machines rebelled against them and T'Kon capital Iconia was destroyed by orbital bombardment. But Iconians did not die. Some survived in alternative dimensions. But most was teleported around various planets, before system crashed and lost they knowledge. Those were first Humanoids. Over milenia they evolved into new species, but until discovery of Picard most assumed that they evolved naturally.
Correction. It was Supernova. But it align with series of slave rebellions and attack of mysterious machines.
felbercarb Do b5 time line being thats the best sci fi show so far
Interesting that you're bringing in a taste of Larry Niven and the Slavers
The Q could also have emerged closer to the end of the universe, given that they appear to be effortlessly capable of time travel.
This will be cool
In the continuum book series.. Q takes Picard back to when he was born... Q meddles with quarks and muons changing their polarity, he gets chastised by the continuum who were watching him... This was supposedly at the start, the birth of the Universe. Giving Q an age of at least 16 billion years when he "died" of old age. But also note that this is when Picards Q was born and there already existed Q elders at this point...
I assume that at some point you've read _Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future_ by Denise and Michael Okuda?
Welp, I guess you better update this now given all the timeline shenanigans of DISCO Season 5.
If I remember correctly from reading 'A Universe from Nothing, there shouldn't have been anything resembling civilization even possible (past maybe energy beings) for a good while so I wonder how people would try to fit that in with the Trek timeline.
"...subspace IS kinda what existed before the big bang and is being overwritten by the laws of our universe, pushing those layers deeper." Please tell me there's going to be a video on this!
What if Q are the most powerful being from previous universe? Like Starfield main plot but on abowe and beyond cosmic scale?
What is this music in the beginning? I hear it on a lot of channels, but I haven't been able to find it.
I think its cool that you included "Magus 2" and "The Slavers" (from probably the 2nd best episode of the original Animated Series, and a separate story by Larry Niven, a favorite author of my youth 😄).
However, I'm guessing that this is 'Beta Canon' (as in not recognized by 'official' resources).
Although you'll have to pardon me for saying that what is and isn't 'Official' Canon has become a bit muddied since the premier of "Discovery' 😏
Larry Niven did write the episode about the Slavers - Rick left out that they conquered the galaxy because they had the means to telepathically control other beings. Kind of hard to fight that. Their technology wasn't very advanced, once they took over a smarter race, they didn't need to invent things but could make their slaves do it for them.
Good luck..pre Kurtzman trek such a trek timeline travel would have been cool...but after discovery and Picard it becomes a real cluster fuck.