My opinion is that the average mechanic is way more likely to mess up using and reading a micrometer than they are to mess up reading plastigauge. For example, If your crankshaft is a tenth of a thou too big, just warm your mic up 10 degrees f by holding it in your hand for a couple minutes. Now your crank measures perfect!
Upon mock up I use plasie gauge . Before machine I always double check it with my equipment(so i know exactlywhat they did after). 99% of the time the plastie gauge works great. On my high RPM stuff, I like to know what the change between vertical radius and horizontal radius of the bearings are. My own stuff is don't care if the rings are +-2thou. Customer stuff is like to make them all the same.
I can’t put into words how valuable your videos are. Rarely can the average person get a look into the mind and methods of a person with your level of experience. Whether someone agrees with your methods or not doesn’t actually matter. The proof is in your results. And it’s not a one off, you show time and again that your methods work, and not just on one brand or size of engine.
Zinc-This shearing force on the face of the camshaft and the tops of the lifters causes a lot of stress on the motor oil. In the past, motor oils had a lot of Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP in them to combat this shearing force. This is called an extreme pressure additive. Most modern camshaft setups have rollers on their lifters and rocker arms, and aren't subject to the shearing forces that our cars were made with. In 1996, ZDDP levels started to be reduced and around 2005, API SM grade oils significantly reduced the zinc content even more in order to protect modern 3-way catalytic converters. In the 1980s, the design life of catalytic converters was around 50,000 miles. On modern cars - it's more like 150,000 miles. In order to last this long, ZDDP had to be reduced. Most people don't realize that a catalytic converter is a wear item, but it will eventually run out of the catalyst that causes the chemical reactions that clean up the emissions
So before you pull out the plastic gauge and buy a turbo Take a piece of paper And put your best plan together Oil - type Bearings- type/ needs Build - today and tomorrow Then think of clearances Check/ dlb check Plastigauge is your best friend You will have peace of mind Great lead Richard , it’s a tool, and you must understand why it’s best to check We have all “ spun a rod” Or heard the “ knock knock jokes” It’s possibly the most cost efficient return in a build (then pre lube) before start up
Ah the memories... I was (un) fortunate enough to get rod knock on my first car in 1990 while I was in high school auto shop class. My teacher taught me how to use plastiguage and I was able to just replace the stock rod bearings and be back on the road causing trouble.
Any check, dlb check Triple check is great Plastigauge Will tell you if a journal is out of square and out of round on a used motor and lets you check any parts machined Many times I took a very well used motor and swapped in fresh bearings just cleaned up crank( bearings wear first) LS motors way tighter- check then you know- to tight sheers oil or can spin a rod bearing Great Content again Richard!
Re post- understanding why you need to check • 1y ago • Edited 1y ago • The aluminum matrix bearings have been used by GM as OEM since maybe the early to mid 1960s that I know of. These have an aluminum alloy fused to a steel backing. They have very good embeddability and conformability, with good strength between babbitt and tri metal bearings. They last a long time in stock, street engines. Use them. Tri metal bearings are made with a steel back, copper cast onto the backing, and a lead over plate. These are strong, can take more load than aluminum bearings. But they are harder, and don't have the level of embeddability of the aluminum bearings. They don't last quite as long, and are less forgiving of things like improper clearance or infrequent oil changes. They do work well, but in your case the aluminum bearings are a better choice.
I used plastic guage for years and it works fine, it puts ya in the ballpark and if it plastic guage says it`s ok your motor won`t end up in your lap. It took me a good while to afford a sunnen bore guage. It`s an expesive tool but its convient and incredibly accurate. Now as usual ya have to use the plastic guage properly,, ie, don`t tap on the parts to split the caps, it will give you a false reading. I used a big channell locks to pull the caps (rods) usually
One more thing to add If your trying to test the rods for out of round- 4 strips each 90 degrees the thrust side wears first Any high kms engine will make better oil pressure with fresh ( stock) replacement bearings Mains seem fine
Yes absolutely it works. Once we've made our parts and are happy with the readings from the cmm and surface finishes/hardness are within spec, it's always worth using plastigauge on final assembly just to make sure no error has been made when bearings are being installed. Yep like every company building anything, we have had problems with parts that are not what they are said to be, in our case bearings. And yes plastigauge has been used within Cosworth in the UK
2 sides of the street: I'm at the machine shop and John, the machinist engine builder, is putting a bottom end together. He grabs is oil can lays a squeeze of oil on the main saddles then lays the bearings. I say " John, you cant do that." He giggles and said, it doesn't matter. This way or that way, oil will find it's way into everywhere in the crank case.
I’ve rebuilt way more motors using the plasti-gauge that with measuring tools it’s so much faster when you are in a shop trying to get stuff out the door… I’ve also never had any of those motors come back. I have had multiple autozone reman engines blow up after they “rebuilt” it lol so it definitely works
You totally blew my mind with saying you re-use 3rd Gen HEMI rod bolts. You are the very first I've heard this from. Others are so solid on the claim that they are torque to yield one time use and then trash, that I am actually scared to re-use. I wish we could discuss thus further.
@@TomSmith-cv8hkyeh for sure but I know in most cases TTY is just jargon to sell bolts or whatever, BUT in some cases it's really a thing. I tore down a motor that someone else had been inside of and found loose rod bolts. I know it was reassembled with used bolts. So I believed those particular bolts were actually junked. So I've been replacing them every time since. This new information is just causing confusion in my brain.
There can be differences, some are one time use only (though some have success ignoring this), and some have a maximum amount of recommended cycles. I have no experience or knowledge about this particular one, so this is general.
17:45 actually i know one 😊. Early 90's i knew a engine builder doing motorcycle roadracing engines on the side, when i asked about plati- guage, shrurged his shoulders and said that he uses it. He leaves Ford as an engineer to work for Harley Davidson to develope the v-rod cylinder head. He spent most of his time in germany at Porsche and England at, drum roll.. Cosworth in developing the engine😂.
As long as you get measurement over the whole length it can work. But something tells me that most don't measure that accurately as then some of the most popular brands of crank/rods wouldn't still be in business. 😆
@jonathangehman4005 Yeah, except it's like using a tape measure, not giving the right reading to a half thou or less. It's open to interpretation, or it has different thicknesses for different clearances and can be mis- packaged or mis-identified.
@richardholdener1727 Yes, as I have said the entire time, within the scale of approximately a thousandth, you can infere that it's between say .002 or .003, but as I said, the tolerance and room for error are higher when using plastigauge. That said, it does work. I don't know why people get so hostile about differing but accurate opinions.
Re post Getting ready to do some pre-assembly so I was wondering if I could get some idea of what numbers would be good for the main and rod bearing clearances using a plastigage as I can't seem to find any for an LSX Iron Block. Crank, Rods, Pistons all forged. FI as well (TVS2300). Thx! I always use .001:1 clearance to journal size as a general rule of thumb. So about .0025" on the mains and .0021" on the rods for the LS engines. Factory LS1 specs are: Crankshaft Bearing Clearance (P): 0.018-0.054mm / 0.0007-0.00212" Rod Bearing Clearance (P): 0.015-0.063mm / 0.0006-0.00248" I would stick to the looser end of these tolerances. I stay between .002 - .0028 Crank and Rod manufacturer can give you specifics of what they prefer for their specific parts.
Sure. If you are building a cup engine, or F1, or something, micrometer measurement is more accurate, but plastigauge has always done me well. Several S85 V10's .......
No substitute for good measuring especially after getting a crankshaft machined. plastigauge won't tell you reliably if your crank guy is sloppy after a few bad shops I learnt not to trust.
mehh,. seems like extra work tbh. + plastigauge does have a shelf life... but id want to use them on my next build because im rusty ., and dont trust my tools or myself anymore
Ok I have used pg will still use pg I have worked on some extremely expensive engine's like hundred thousand dollars engine's ( this will be good) if the FAA walks in and sees you using pg all kind of bad things will happen to you seriously. Just saying your friend the Bloody Knuckle
who is going to spend hundreds of dollars on tools to use one time. plasti gauge has worked for many many years. I only know my own my own experience i happen to know plasti gauge works for what I've used it for. from what I've seen there are some folks that just wanna be right. they say bla bla bla my way is correct and you are wrong. there are way to many internet engineers out there. who decides whats right way or wrong way.
Does plastigauge work? Yes Does a dial bore gauge work? yes Does plastiguage replace a dial bore gauge ? No Will plastiguage tell you the main housing bore dimensions after a line bore? RUclips is full of engine building gurus. Some big names out there. No offense but I don’t see Richard’s name on the side of race cars. It’s a fun amateur boutique channel.
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My opinion is that the average mechanic is way more likely to mess up using and reading a micrometer than they are to mess up reading plastigauge.
For example, If your crankshaft is a tenth of a thou too big, just warm your mic up 10 degrees f by holding it in your hand for a couple minutes. Now your crank measures perfect!
100%
Upon mock up I use plasie gauge . Before machine I always double check it with my equipment(so i know exactlywhat they did after). 99% of the time the plastie gauge works great. On my high RPM stuff, I like to know what the change between vertical radius and horizontal radius of the bearings are.
My own stuff is don't care if the rings are +-2thou. Customer stuff is like to make them all the same.
I can’t put into words how valuable your videos are. Rarely can the average person get a look into the mind and methods of a person with your level of experience. Whether someone agrees with your methods or not doesn’t actually matter. The proof is in your results. And it’s not a one off, you show time and again that your methods work, and not just on one brand or size of engine.
Zinc-This shearing force on the face of the camshaft and the tops of the lifters causes a lot of stress on the motor oil. In the past, motor oils had a lot of Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP in them to combat this shearing force. This is called an extreme pressure additive.
Most modern camshaft setups have rollers on their lifters and rocker arms, and aren't subject to the shearing forces that our cars were made with.
In 1996, ZDDP levels started to be reduced and around 2005, API SM grade oils significantly reduced the zinc content even more in order to protect modern 3-way catalytic converters. In the 1980s, the design life of catalytic converters was around 50,000 miles. On modern cars - it's more like 150,000 miles. In order to last this long, ZDDP had to be reduced. Most people don't realize that a catalytic converter is a wear item, but it will eventually run out of the catalyst that causes the chemical reactions that clean up the emissions
So before you pull out the plastic gauge and buy a turbo
Take a piece of paper
And put your best plan together
Oil - type
Bearings- type/ needs
Build - today and tomorrow
Then think of clearances
Check/ dlb check
Plastigauge is your best friend
You will have peace of mind
Great lead Richard , it’s a tool, and you must understand why it’s best to check
We have all “ spun a rod”
Or heard the “ knock knock jokes”
It’s possibly the most cost efficient return in a build (then pre lube) before start up
Ah the memories...
I was (un) fortunate enough to get rod knock on my first car in 1990 while I was in high school auto shop class. My teacher taught me how to use plastiguage and I was able to just replace the stock rod bearings and be back on the road causing trouble.
Any check, dlb check
Triple check is great
Plastigauge
Will tell you if a journal is out of square and out of round on a used motor and lets you check any parts machined
Many times I took a very well used motor and swapped in fresh bearings just cleaned up crank( bearings wear first)
LS motors way tighter- check then you know- to tight sheers oil or can spin a rod bearing
Great Content again Richard!
Re post- understanding why you need to check
•
1y ago
•
Edited 1y ago
•
The aluminum matrix bearings have been used by GM as OEM since maybe the early to mid 1960s that I know of. These have an aluminum alloy fused to a steel backing. They have very good embeddability and conformability, with good strength between babbitt and tri metal bearings. They last a long time in stock, street engines. Use them.
Tri metal bearings are made with a steel back, copper cast onto the backing, and a lead over plate. These are strong, can take more load than aluminum bearings. But they are harder, and don't have the level of embeddability of the aluminum bearings. They don't last quite as long, and are less forgiving of things like improper clearance or infrequent oil changes. They do work well, but in your case the aluminum bearings are a better choice.
I used plastic guage for years and it works fine, it puts ya in the ballpark and if it plastic guage says it`s ok your motor won`t end up in your lap. It took me a good while to afford a sunnen bore guage. It`s an expesive tool but its convient and incredibly accurate. Now as usual ya have to use the plastic guage properly,, ie, don`t tap on the parts to split the caps, it will give you a false reading. I used a big channell locks to pull the caps (rods) usually
It is more important to decide on the proper clearances than battling what measuring method should be used.
Great video Richard! The dirty little secrets to grassroots hot rodding.
One more thing to add
If your trying to test the rods for out of round- 4 strips each 90 degrees the thrust side wears first
Any high kms engine will make better oil pressure with fresh ( stock) replacement bearings
Mains seem fine
Yes absolutely it works.
Once we've made our parts and are happy with the readings from the cmm and surface finishes/hardness are within spec, it's always worth using plastigauge on final assembly just to make sure no error has been made when bearings are being installed. Yep like every company building anything, we have had problems with parts that are not what they are said to be, in our case bearings.
And yes plastigauge has been used within Cosworth in the UK
2 sides of the street: I'm at the machine shop and John, the machinist engine builder, is putting a bottom end together.
He grabs is oil can lays a squeeze of oil on the main saddles then lays the bearings. I say " John, you cant do that." He giggles and said, it doesn't matter. This way or that way, oil will find it's way into everywhere in the crank case.
I use both. Same results. Precision enough for SBC BBC Chevys
I’ve rebuilt way more motors using the plasti-gauge that with measuring tools it’s so much faster when you are in a shop trying to get stuff out the door… I’ve also never had any of those motors come back. I have had multiple autozone reman engines blow up after they “rebuilt” it lol so it definitely works
You totally blew my mind with saying you re-use 3rd Gen HEMI rod bolts. You are the very first I've heard this from. Others are so solid on the claim that they are torque to yield one time use and then trash, that I am actually scared to re-use. I wish we could discuss thus further.
Torque to yield just means they're are stretched beyond the plastic limit, not to destruction. They will simply measure longer after use.
@@TomSmith-cv8hkyeh for sure but I know in most cases TTY is just jargon to sell bolts or whatever, BUT in some cases it's really a thing. I tore down a motor that someone else had been inside of and found loose rod bolts. I know it was reassembled with used bolts. So I believed those particular bolts were actually junked. So I've been replacing them every time since. This new information is just causing confusion in my brain.
There can be differences, some are one time use only (though some have success ignoring this), and some have a maximum amount of recommended cycles. I have no experience or knowledge about this particular one, so this is general.
Plasti Guage was brought about by the advent.of sbc bbc and fomoco. Has severed me well for forty years.
What are your thoughts on rod bolts? Reusing vs new OEM, vs ARP without resizing rods?
17:45 actually i know one 😊. Early 90's i knew a engine builder doing motorcycle roadracing engines on the side, when i asked about plati- guage, shrurged his shoulders and said that he uses it. He leaves Ford as an engineer to work for Harley Davidson to develope the v-rod cylinder head. He spent most of his time in germany at Porsche and England at, drum roll.. Cosworth in developing the engine😂.
Both ways work. One is just more professional than the other. Just the bore gauge will give a more precise measurement.
As long as you get measurement over the whole length it can work. But something tells me that most don't measure that accurately as then some of the most popular brands of crank/rods wouldn't still be in business. 😆
THANK YOU
Plastigauge is adequate to give you an idea of clearances, but when you are liable for that motor, I'd rather measure and know.
Using plastigauge IS measuring.
@jonathangehman4005 Yeah, except it's like using a tape measure, not giving the right reading to a half thou or less. It's open to interpretation, or it has different thicknesses for different clearances and can be mis- packaged or mis-identified.
if you used plastic gauge-you know what the clearance is
@richardholdener1727 Yes, as I have said the entire time, within the scale of approximately a thousandth, you can infere that it's between say .002 or .003, but as I said, the tolerance and room for error are higher when using plastigauge. That said, it does work. I don't know why people get so hostile about differing but accurate opinions.
@@lucascb750 Dude. You're arguing with Richard Holdener. It doesn't make you look good
Re post Getting ready to do some pre-assembly so I was wondering if I could get some idea of what numbers would be good for the main and rod bearing clearances using a plastigage as I can't seem to find any for an LSX Iron Block. Crank, Rods, Pistons all forged. FI as well (TVS2300). Thx!
I always use .001:1 clearance to journal size as a general rule of thumb.
So about .0025" on the mains and .0021" on the rods for the LS engines.
Factory LS1 specs are:
Crankshaft Bearing Clearance (P): 0.018-0.054mm / 0.0007-0.00212"
Rod Bearing Clearance (P): 0.015-0.063mm / 0.0006-0.00248"
I would stick to the looser end of these tolerances. I stay between .002 - .0028
Crank and Rod manufacturer can give you specifics of what they prefer for their specific parts.
those will work
Sure. If you are building a cup engine, or F1, or something, micrometer measurement is more accurate, but plastigauge has always done me well. Several S85 V10's .......
What about cast/forge piston to bore clearance?
they are different-forged generally requires more because of growth rate vs temp
I like the plastic Guage there's one measurement. Measuring you have two measurements and math to work out clearance three chances for error
With the proper tools you won’t mess up
man! I missed the livestream. Frigging youtoob doesn't fire off notifications for your channel. How am I supposed to win that m90?
I’ve built hundreds of motors and always used plastigauge , never had a issue with any of them,
Of course it does
If it’s been verified with a dial gauge then measured with plastigage it should be good.
Its been around for ever. It's close enough. Usually.
No substitute for good measuring especially after getting a crankshaft machined. plastigauge won't tell you reliably if your crank guy is sloppy after a few bad shops I learnt not to trust.
plastic gauge will indeed tell you if the crank guy is bad
mehh,. seems like extra work tbh. + plastigauge does have a shelf life... but id want to use them on my next build because im rusty ., and dont trust my tools or myself anymore
Ok I have used pg will still use pg I have worked on some extremely expensive engine's like hundred thousand dollars engine's ( this will be good) if the FAA walks in and sees you using pg all kind of bad things will happen to you seriously. Just saying your friend the Bloody Knuckle
I eat plastigauge for breakfast.
If it DIDN'T work, It would have been pulled years ago!
Plastigauge works, but assembly grease splattered everywhere is disgusting and unnecessary.
Doesn't take an hour of bs, of course Plastiguage works.
who is going to spend hundreds of dollars on tools to use one time. plasti gauge has worked for many many years. I only know my own my own experience i happen to know plasti gauge works for what I've used it for. from what I've seen there are some folks that just wanna be right. they say bla bla bla my way is correct and you are wrong. there are way to many internet engineers out there. who decides whats right way or wrong way.
I lost $6000 on a motor to a machine shop in Gilbert Az. Always advise them before they accept your work you are fully prepared to sue them.
You get your food spat in every time you go out to eat!😅
Does plastigauge work? Yes
Does a dial bore gauge work? yes
Does plastiguage replace a dial bore gauge ? No
Will plastiguage tell you the main housing bore dimensions after a line bore?
RUclips is full of engine building gurus. Some big names out there. No offense but I don’t see Richard’s name on the side of race cars. It’s a fun amateur boutique channel.