I think I speak for everyone here, we absolutely will watch every Wheel of Time review no matter what. The podcast listening experience isn't any less enjoyable because of your feelings towards the series, Austin. If you were to give all 15 books a 5 out of 10 and we were just listening to Richard rave and you be indifferent we'd all still absolutely watch. It's completely on you. If you genuinely want to keep going with the series despite your apathy, do it! If you really just aren't interested at all after book 4 and you have little to no motivation or desire to finish the series, then don't finish it. We just like to hear you guys talk about books. If I had to give an early prediction, I honestly doubt you will enjoy TSR. I imagine it will be more of the same for you. But I could be wrong. I don't want to set any expectations for you, but I think the ultimate key to this series is like Richard said, viewing each book as sort of installments or episodes in one long story. The 1000 page count and high praise surrounding the book might lead you to believe this is a huge, epic, memorable journey in the vein of a Sanderson book. That's what happened to me, at least. But it isn't really. It's just a really long Wheel of Time book. Don't expect to be floored; you will be disappointed that way. Also, HOW does the wolf stuff not interest you? It's like the best part of the series for me. I fucking love wolves. I'm reading Empire of SIlence by Christopher Ruocchio right now. Phenomenal book I know is probably somewhere on your guys' radar. The plot and protagonist and world-building stuff is all cool, but it's Ruocchio's prose that single-handedly sets him apart from the field. He is an incredible writer. Best thing I've read in months. Cheers to you both, and happy reading.
Glad I read this - thankyou for the preface going into book 4, I think thatll help a lot! And yes that’s absolutely in our radar - can’t wait to read it. As for the wolves part - Ill do my best to explain in the next character section why that is, I have a bit of a lengthy response that comes to mind! But Im eager to get into book 4 even with my prior apathy, I think itll be cool regardless to see if this one breaks out from the rest for me. Appreciate the comment, cheers!
I hope you guys continue even if Austin hates every minute of it... Richard's impassioned arguments are so damn inspirational I feel like I should start re-read number three. Lol
Austin! 1:37 When im having a rough time for whatever reason it may be. WoT is my comfort food if you will lol Wshs dishes, go for walks, mow the lawn, whatever task i can mindlessly do while listening , it just fades the pain away. And the series is SO long, you can be tucked into that comfort blanket for months while the brain heals.
I love the “newbie” takes! I’ve read the series like 30 times (mostly audiobook re-reads) and introduced several people to the series. These conversations are so great! I wish I was there. I wanted to note that yes, the pattern of the gang parting and getting back together gets very old and predictable in these first three books. But remember that it’s not just laziness. It happens on purpose. The Wheel picks the threads- and these are the strongest threads- to force events when need be. Ta’veren working together can help the Wheel shape the events (Pattern) that need to happen. Fortunately after this point Jordan relaxes the formula and deviates from it- arguably, a course has been set and the Pattern has a little wiggle room at times. ;) hahah
Austin, I agree with Richard that you should read book 4 and quit if you still dislike it. If only for your own enjoyment, since I like watching the discussion. I wasn't very invested in the characters until book 4. I was pretty apathetic about finishing the series. But there are several moments in The Shadow Rising that made certain characters click for me, and I became hooked. It's weird to say it took so many books to get me hooked, and now I've read it 4 times and it's my favorite series (besides Stormlight Archive).
If Austin doesn't like the next books, if he's willing to continue to read, I'd love to continue to have this series. I stopped reading half way through the first book, and based on some of Austin's critiques, I think I'd have a similar viewpoint as him, however I just love to consume fantasy and hear discussion on it. Austin's "negative" viewpoint doesn't detract from the vibe at all.
I am new to reading the WoT books. I watched the show first. I am so in love with them. I just want to live in this world. I am on book 6 now, and none of them have taken me more then a week to read. I think it is benefiting me to be reading them back to back, not reading other books in between so they are like really long chapters. I tried to do the audiobook for one of them so I could multitask, and I will say it is nothing like reading the books. I don't want someone else's emphasis on what I am reading. I think Austin should try reading one of the books instead of doing the audiobook. I also think book 5 has been my favorite so far. I know a lot of people like book 4 the best, but I liked 5 more. Maybe just hoping if book 4 still has not gotten Austin on board, that he will keep going for book 5 :) My enthusiasm level is the same as Richard's. I wish your podcasts would come out as fast as I am reading them so I could read along, but I know I will not pause now! I am too far down the rabbit hole.
Book 4 is definitely a big step up in my opinion over book 1 and 2 (i really like book 3) but i would say at the very least go through book 5. getting through book 5 really advances some of these story lines to a great place and gives us some great moments. "Until yesterday i have followed men of other lands because i must, you i will follow because i want to... and i pledge myself your man".
Love your discussion guys! I guess you guys are reading alot of other books in between, and that might be why its harder for Austin to get into it. When I read the series, I read all of them in a row, making it hard to seperate the books from eachother, but the whole series when its finnished is the best thing I ever read. Just like Richard is saying, the arcs does not play out over one book, but rather over the whole series. I think Austin really should try to listen to what Richard is saying. Also I would suggest that he reads The Wheel Of Time for what it is and stop trying to make it something its not. It is one long story divided into 14 books. Not 14 books with diferrent stories. Thanks for the episode :D
My favourite background thing in this book is Thom singlehandedly starting the Carien civil war. Started my third reread because of you guys, still so much fun. I hope you continue the series, let it be Austins comfy series and let it take as long as it may. Cheers 🍻
I could listen to Richard talk about the wheel of time for hours on end. If Austin truly continues to hate the series it would be cool if Richard would make a short summary/favorite parts of each book videos. I really enjoyed the plot part of this video where he goes through it and explains what happened. I’m currently reading along with you guys! Also side note - Richard, I’m currently reading name of the wind and I have to agree with you. It’s really not a good book
Listening to you guys talk is bringing back all the feelings of frustration I had with the characters. But also the thrill of the ending. (I think of red rising every week because I DNF’d the first book but I can’t walk 2 steps without running into it so I gotta try it again)
An interesting take on WoT vs LOTR, in that LOTR coneys so much in 3 books vs WoT taking much longer to convey. One difference I would point out regarding LOTR is that much of the history and descriptions that Jordan gives you in the main books, Tolkien gave in his other works like The Hobbit, the simarillian, etc. If someone has not read all of these other works, there is much in LOTR that does not make sense because there is a lack of context. An easy example of this is all the different names Gandolf goes by (or is referenced by) from various characters. In LOTR, you just accept and move on, which is fine...(it is what it is). Robert Jordan, on the other hand, included all of this other information into the main story through (largly) organic exposition dumps. By the end of the WoT, you will understand all of the story like if you have read all of the Tolkien works. And much of the history components are done more like a story versus a text book. Just my opinion.
From someone who recently finished The Dragon Reborn. During the scene where Rand beheads the Merchants im lime 90% sure he sensed a Grey Man. He said how he saw 7 people riding up, then got bad juju and realized he killed 8 people afterwards. Especially b/c grey men can pass by unseen, im pretty positive he killed like 7 innocents to get one Grey Man
I always loved the scene of the girls getting Mat to take the letter because it shows them practicing how to be full Aes Sedai. It’s kind of cringey and immature, but you can see them trying.
Thats how i viewed it too. I always found really funny and entertaining watching the girls "play at" being Aes Sedai. I can't wait for them to actually get there.
To be clear mat was a jokester speaking the old tongue and gambling in the first book. The transition after completely removing the dagger is not a leap at all to me. It’s just a natural transition after the corruption of the dagger is removed.
I'm on your side Austin. I enjoyed Eye of the World enough to continue, and I really did enjoy The Great Hunt. But for me, my interest waned with each book after, until I left off with book 5 in 2020 (my last read before the world shut down). I won't say that I quit, because in my mind I still plan to pick up Lord of Chaos. But it's not calling to me. Sorry Richard, if you happen to read this...
When do you think you’ll get to reading Lord of Chaos? Hoping my interest picks up, but it happens - cant love every book. Maybe the repetitive structure in the first 3 got to you by book 3 as well? Without spoiling, what caused your interest to wane over time?
@@2ToRamble great question, and I think a lot of it had to do with the padded out writing. I enjoy the story itself, so my issue wasn't with subject matter. I'm no stranger to said writing, but whereas many fans love just spending time in the world, I felt like it just took too long for me to read. I'll probably pick up LoC early 2024. I've read a lot, and varied books since 2020, so I may find new interest.
Austin I feel so validated by your POV. This is EXACTLY what my experience with WOT was. I liked the first three even though I wasn’t crazy about them. Everyone said that WOT kicks into gear after book 4, and that’s where the series dropped off for me. I DNFd the series after book six. Dragon Reborn was the highest I ever felt through the series.
@@2ToRamble to be totally 1000% honest. Book 4 was my least favorite. The man needed a darn editor and half the book felt like Robert Jordan was retelling Dune. I mean A LOT like Dune. Once I saw it I couldn’t unsee it. If I find your characters to be ok at best, your plots to be recycled elements from better books and only your worldbuilding being top notch, it’s really hard for me to carry on.
One of the problems that might be happening is that listening to an audio book and reading a book arn't the same thing. They can convey different experiances depending on the peformance or the audio narrator.
I think you’re in a turning point. Richard is really doing a great job of pumping Austin up and giving the vibe of why fans love this series despite its flaws.
I think Austin will probably enjoy Perrin in book 4 but maybe not so much Rand and Matt. Just finished book 4 myself for the first time and i definitely felt it's the best so far
Just found your channel and I'm loving it! I'm also on my first readthrough of wot and although I think I'm liking it more than Austin, I can definitely see his criticisms, I'm also not absolutely in love with it yet but it feels so cozy and everytime I finish one book I find myself thinking about starting the next one more often than not (I like to read other things in between series to stop me from burning out).
I just looked back and Richard's previous ratings were 6.85 for EOTW and 7.4 for TGH. Looks like TGH barely eked out the higher rating even though Richard at 11:26 said this was his highest rated of the first three. Maybe the raw feelings from rereading this book made it seem like the book was rated higher despite what the combined categories ended up averaging out to?
I think regardless of how he feels about Shadow Rising he should continue. Additionally I'm also going thru WOT and i love seeing both perspectives and comparing it to the both of you. And lastly because I would like for this i continue to get to the Brando books!
Richard I understand you so much bc as much as I respect Austin's opinion (it is indeed really interesting and in the majority of times real), I really think there's something in Austin's way of reading that didn't allow him to connect with the little moments and interactions from the characters. I've been thinking about it since he said he didn't see where or when Nynaeve and Lan's romance came from Lol. Anyways it's so fun to watch you guys. Greetings from Argentina🇦🇷! (english isn't my first language so I apologize for any mistake in this comment)
That scene is important too because the girls always talk about how they are being used and how they hate it but then immediately do the same when they need help. Super dynamic character and character development
This is the series that got me into the fantasy genre. Books 4/5 was where I really fell in love with it. The characters start to take more control of their destiny rather than being pushed around by others/fate. You have to keep going. Sando brings everything to such a satisfying conclusion you just have to trust that he will get you to the top of that mountain.
I am in a very similar place to Austin ( Sanderson fan, clawing my way through Wheel of Time, not feeling the hype). I have almost all the same criticisms and observations. Regardless of how book 4 goes, I'd love to see you guys push through. Selfishly, I'd like to see if Austin feels the ending Sanderlanche is worth it. I'll also say it is nice to hear Richard explain scenes and their thematic meaning. I feel like he's the curator at a museum and to see someone else appreciate something makes me appreciate it more.
That thing about people having different perspectives is most obvious between men and women, but the next book should make it very clear with regard to Rand and Mat, at least, that different perspectives make a huge difference even when characters are the same sex. People keep secrets because "to fool your enemies, you must also fool your friends", and in that book, someone tries to also fool the reader. Which you might notice if you pay attention to when perspectives switch. Thinking Mat was suddenly different or that he changed in book 3 is understandable, but not if you pay attention. For one, book 3 is the first time we get Mat's perspective. Second, as Richard points out, the dagger made him not-well for the latter half of book 1 and the whole of book 3. We simply didn't get to see him a lot, but in book 2 we did see his humor/frustration, for example when he had to pretend to limp in Cairhien, as well as the nonchalant way he blew the horn in Falme. Not so sudden a change, just less things preventing you from seeing who Mat is. About continuing or not and Austin's enjoyment, it sounds like you should continue. It also sounds like the series is starting to grow on him, so even if it doesn't become a favorite it sounds like it should be fine.
If Austin likes book 4 at least as much as book 3, I suggest you guys power through until the end of book 6. Events at the end of book 5 and 6 may change his mind, especially given that he likes Red Rising.
So, i get where Austin may be coming from. Having read Stormlight most of the way through before starting Wheel of Time i kind of get the having false expectations kind of thing. Youre really wanting these big character moments and they just dont come. But afterwards i start to realize while i think about what ive read and realize that "wow these characters really have grown or changed a bit"
Late to the party but if Austin isn’t enjoying reading then I don’t see the point in continuing for him but if he likes the post discussion (as I do) and as long as it isn’t a chore then I say keep her goin
Okay I’m semi on board with both of you after book 3. I will say I’m really enjoying the series but no one book has really blown me away (I loved the book 2 ending though). That being said I loved Mat in this. I didn’t think his change was sudden because we waited so long for him to be fixed(?). He was my least favorite of the Emonds fielders, but now I’m on board with all three boys and loving it. I enjoyed the Rand break as well. I thought it added some intrigue to his character and made him seem like some sort of mythical character. I know the decision has already been made, but it’s okay Austin. I will try Red Rising soon when I need a break. It’s free on audible
I think I liked WoT slightly more than Austin and ended up giving it up after book 4 or 5. I thought they were good books but just not my personal taste and wasn't invested enough. Definitely keen for some Malazan reviews one day!
After hearing what he's got to say about the wheel of time books(at least these 3), I'm not even remotely excited to read red rising if this is how he views the books because i actually enjoyed every single one of them very much and I'm sad we won't be getting anymore of Richard enthusiastically talking about the books we love so much
I have so many thoughts! I just started book 12 yesterday... just for context. * On Mat, man, I absolutely despised his character. At the beginning I found myself mostly thinking "why is this guy such a fan favorite? he sucks so much" I hated everything about his buffoonery, but now I'm like "yeah, he is pretty awesome" some time along the way I changed my mind on Mat, and I didn't even notice! * Book 4 has some really interesting stuff in it. So I think you're onto something Austin. He (Robert Jordan) definitely feels more reserved all around in books 1-3. I didn't start getting invested until the Rhuidean chapters of book 4, and I think that's when Rand starts getting real interesting. * I still agree with Austin about everything, but I'll give it to Richard, that it seems like the character work gets better as the story goes on. It's just happening veeeerrryyyy slowly. * I'm not super invested still, here at the beginning of book 12, but I finally got to the Sanderson books, so I'm really curious to see if I have the same gripes still or if it sticks the landing. * I also have problems with the prose, and I find the repetitiveness of description annoying. Like at this point, I just groan out loud when I see/hear arms folding beneath breasts, or braid tugging. I can't stand it anymore, it drives me off the wall. That type of repetitive descriptor is my least favorite thing about these books. * Lastly, I think y'all should finish this read and series! I'm really curious to see if Austin changes his mind along the way on some stuff too. It makes me feel very validated to hear his thoughts on this, cause for a long time I felt like I was just not reading the same books as everyone else. Though I'll understand if he decides to not finish it.
Thanks for all the thoughts- we’re going to keep going, and glad to see you had similar thoughts as me and although it hasnt totally hooked you yet, seems like things are getting better. Hope the Sando books do it for ya 🙌
One more thing I can agree with Austin on emotional impact and how you really don’t connect with the characters…. It’s rover Jordan’s quirks he gives every character and just repeats it until the end of Time. Braid tugging for example… my goodness. Lana face of stone. Loials hot dog fingers. The lore and world building is so dang good that I look past most of this. But sometimes it creeps up and because EXAUSTING that it takes away from impactful moments.
Finishing the books faster than the postal service can ship them from ‘Murica to Denmark… Feelsbadman Having just finished Dragon Reborn, I gotta say that the ending felt a little flat to me, especially compared to the second book. Aside from that, I’m still completely hooked and interested in seeing where the series is going from here. It still very much feels like just the beginning at this point. Love to tune into these vids when I finish reading a book, Austin hurry up bruh! Plz
I keep looking at the Locked Tomb series on the shelf... would love to hear your thoughts on those books! I thought Harrow was the best sequel I've read since Golden Son.
I (Richard) liked the first book, but I have not read the second book yet due to comments about it being in 2nd person perspective and not really enjoyable till the end. Would you say otherwise? Should I give it a shot?
@@2ToRamble The second-person perspective is certainly a bit jarring at first, but Muir didn't just do it for fun. It's a plot-relevant stylistic choice which really pays off, in my opinion. I consumed Harrow in the span of about three days and found it super enjoyable throughout thanks to cool sci-fi worldbuilding and great characters. Based on your ratings of other books on this channel, I'd say that my own opinions generally track with yours quite closely and I loved this book. Give it a go!
I'll try to fit it into the schedule. No promises as yet. I believe the next sci-fi book after Lightbringer will be suneater. I'll see if I can read Harrow on the side.
I read 3 books of wheel of time but I’ll read shadow rising… I’ll agree that wheel of time is abit overwhelming so should read them then take a break before reading the next book.
Finished this today. My biggest complaint with the first three books is that the endings feel rushed. There were a lot of great parts in dragon reborn, good buildup to tear, but I just left it unsatisfied. In general I'm in the 6.8 neighborhood, but I'm into it. Great world building, mediocre execution. Looking forward to you guys doing book 4.
I just finished "The Dragon Reborn" and for me, every book has been better than the last, so I'm excited for "The Shadow Rising." Hopefully, Austin likes it so the reviews keep coming. I really enjoy watching them after I finish each book. P.S. If Austin didn't listen to Rosamund Pike's narration of the first three books, he’s missed out. She's the best narrator I've come across.
Totally agree with the less of bland Rand the better. I just finished this book last week and i hate to say it but I LOVED that Rand barley got POV's. Contary to you guys i actually really dislike Perrin's POVs along with Rand. I was so happy we got to spend a significant amount of time in the white tower this book. I feel like this series gains alot of life whenever we have Aes Sedai on screen. I felt a little bit robbed in book 2 as we had hyped up Tarvalon for so long only spend a couple chapters and then move on. Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne is defintley the standout group for me and i really enjoyed the hunt for the Black Aja storyline they are giving us. It's so engaging to watch the 3 of them really grappling with what it means to be Aes Sedai and trying to live up to that standard. Also Siuan is another seriously awesome character and I love watching the way she manoeuvres things. My hopes for future books, if it wasnt already clear, is a lot more Aes Sedai. Particularly i would like to see Rand in the tower. I want to see how he deals with all these factions of women trying to use him and how he battles against that. My current ratings are: EoTW-5/10, TGH-6.5/10, TDR-10/10
Wow, it's weird to see someone who has the exact opposite opinion of me. The three girls are probably my least favorite characters, though Elayne isn't too bad most of the time.
It’s not miscommunication it’s literally just more realistic. That’s every aspect of this series that you think it’s frustrating. From eye of the world to memory of light. Every time I’m like man wtf are these women doing. Or what’s this guy doing. Why don’t they just talk. Yea because all of that is more realistic. That’s what RJ set out to write.
Just finished book 3 for the first time. I liked it. But yes the formula just feels like stranger things/ monster of the week. I think the series will have so much more impact on a second read because how deep the foreshadowing goes. I’m excited to continue on!
It's interesting because I am on Richard side. I think about WoT more than I do than Red Rising. There are more memorable scenes that is interesting to digest.
I recently got my friend into WoT(she's at book 4) and shes having a blast! Arguably enjoying them more than me, and reading them 3x faster than i did. So these reviews (which are super fun btw) are complete whiplash from hearing my friend gush over the series, and my joy at living vicariously through her completely incorrect theories.... to Austin's lack of good taste 😜 But seriously Austin, hope you like book 4 (its one of my favs). I'm starting Red Rising this month based on your praise. Really looking foward to it!
I hope I do too! And hope you love Red Rising, let’s see a future where I come back praising book 4 and you’re praising Red Rising (or at least liking it a lot, im a bit of an insane fan) 🥂
I think you missed one crucial point as well. All these characters (the Emond's Fields 5) are basically teenagers as well. Just 16-18 years old (Nynaeve being in her early 20's). You gotta factor in their emotional immaturity in this too and how they're all forced to become more mature at a much faster pace than normal too. One big example of this is the Shadar Logoth dagger and Mat. That's why Mat followed Mordeth to the 'treasure'. He's a kid who has grand thoughts about the world and hasn't had the chance to determine right from wrong completely. Even though there are beasts and an evil incarnate character, the idea that another human would harm them is a foreign concept to them!
My first read through, I wasn't ready for WoT, and just wanted the big action moments. When I reread it, I liked it far better. It's not because I know what will come, it's because his character writing is so good that I could read it for each decade of my life and get something different. Prose is far better than you're giving it credit. He is way better at description, atmosphere, etc than Sando or Brown. Far better. Now you bring in other books like Dune or something, then we have a discussion
@@Rumham7291 There are layers and layers of payoff. Rand's arc is arguably the best I've ever read (I'll include movies etc). There's setup and payoff throughout. If one can read Dumais Wells and not be blown away, I'd be amazed. But, I don't think it's the best teenage or possibly twenties book unless you can read much further than surface level
Alright I was going to comment on the first video but then I binge watched the next two so here’s my thoughts on your guys thoughts on Robert Jordans thoughts he wrote down on paper. Highest rate was a 6 for world building through three books. This guy. The definition of modern fantasy over epic. Nothing wrong with that, but we’re being forced to sift through the same conversations for him to inevitably say that “as an epic fantasy, it’s thee standard.” This is the classic WoT fan vs the world, if someone isn’t hooked by book two just drop it. RJ doesn’t change and by the time you get to Sanderson you’ll rue the day you decided to suffer through an epic when you could’ve read something you like. It’s not that you won’t come to love the wheel of time, you most likely will. Your issue with the series is the presentation of the series and that doesn’t change. I’d imagine the fandom will give you plenty of views on here, and if you keep at this pace you’ll be able to constantly make content on Show vs Books, and I will probably listen to all of them- just know Black hair guy, you’re allowing Robert Jordan to be your deciding factor on epic fantasy in which you clearly could’ve chosen other authors more your speed- and hope that you’ll take the Tolkien glasses off to read this series at some point. Your EOTW critique- while fair- was a huge red flag in this journey lol. If you determined the works derivative, you would’ve done well to look into RJ a little bit before continuing! Your bald friend did very little on camera to assure you that RJ was intentional in his homage! Everything after that has seemed to be a comparison directly between authors you love, who write a style you love, against a pure epic fantasy which clearly isn’t your preference. Almost upsetting to see you read so much and not see what’s actually happening. That all probably sounded a little harsh and I apologize if you feel that way. Hopefully TSR will prove to you that often times it’s you who needs a change in perspective… flicker
I'm doing my first read of WoT and I've been listening to your episodes of the first three books the day after I finished them. I really love your conversations on the series because I'm definitely enjoying it more than Austin but not loving it at the level of Richard, so I share opinions with both of you, and is so much fun to listen to. Are you doing book 4? Or have you given up?
Maybe I'm being unfair because he's attacking a series I've spent the last 2 years reading, but it does feel like Austin is just saying "I didn't like the characters in Eye of the World, therefore there is no character development in all of the Wheel of Time"
If memory serves, Kaladan has a moment with a spren during a very low point, (is that what they’re called?). And while cool. I mean really cool. I loved it cool, it’s an external motivation in his life that brings him in from the edge. Jordan has his characters explore themselves in their evolution, while being assaulted by the dark one and his minions, and your bored? And you discount Jordan with scores so low? Maybe you need a different perspective? Or maybe I’m wrong? Kaladan’s journey from that low point is one of my favorites in fantasy, but he’s as good as Matt, Perrin, and Rand. The one thing I dislike about Kaladan: he peeks at book 2, and becomes … wait for it … boring. Dull. Jordan gives growth over 14 books, which makes those characters last throughout the series. He divides it out slowly.
Having never read this series as a 30 year old but definitely wanting to, could Richard please pitch me on the series? What am I in for? The only thing I know about it is that it's 14 books long. (15 with New Spring I'm aware) Long series don't bother me at all. I'm afraid if I research it I'll come across spoilers which I'd like to avoid.
Richard here. The WOT is in tone the bridge between classic and modern fantasy. You will see troups and themes that are in modern fantasy now that was popularized by series like the WOT. The series itself is more than the sum of its parts. The character journey is over multiple books. So, each book won't feel like an end to a book but an end to a chapter. The worldbuilding feels alive, like tolkien. The characters are frustrating because they are understandable. You, as the reader, know more than the characters, so you know the right decision, but the character doesn't, which leads to conflict. With 14 books, I understand these characters more than any other series. This series is not for everyone. You have to be able to enjoy a slow paced read and trust that it goes somewhere. There are many points in the book that feel pointless, but trust me, it ties together. Overall, it has a great message on how men and women are different and valuable in their own way with their own short comings. They are unbeatable when they work together with honesty. I do hope you love it 😁
Thank you very much. I'm definitely interested in reading the series. I have The Eye of the World for now. Figured I'd read it and see how that goes. I definitely love the dynamic you guys have on here, it works well. Also nothing against Austin, but I mentioned Richard in my original comment because I know he loves the series, and has read it in its entirety. You both are awesome, and definitely entertaining to listen to. I look forward to your videos every week.
Lads can you please review The Shadow Rising, I am reading it in April as part of a monthly read-along on my channel and if there's no 2 to Ramble to watch afterwards I will be sad
Hi :) Can I use a clip of Austin saying the statistic about how long Rand is in the book for one of my videos? Thanks in advance! its ok if no :) Edit: I'm making a video ranking the WoT books***
I have only read the first 4 books and felt totally the same with Austin. I feel relieved listening him lol. 4th one was good but I feel like I hate so many thing in this series so I don't think I will ever continue with the 5th one.
Was the 4th a big step up for you or just a tiny step up from the first 3? Im curious going in if I’ll start to get real invested or not. Glad you found solace in my negativity 😭😂
@@2ToRamble I give 5/10 rating to book 3 but this rating is effected by the fact that it was structured the same way as the first two books. If the book 3 was some sort of standalone book, I would rate i a little bit higher. For the book 4, I give 6.5/10. Changing the structure helped it a lot for me. And the pacing issue you mentioned in this video is a little bit better in 4th book imo. Btw, I loved the solution you proposed for the pacing issue in the book 3 (starting a chapter with Mat saying "no" to the abusive hateful girl trio.) This does not only speed it up, it also adds a little bit more to the prose quality which I always felt lacking in wot books. Psycho girls could try to seduce/abuse/force him to do it after he refuses, it would still be better than the original. This type of problems happens a lot. Some people have the same thought and conversations over and over again.
I tried reading eye of the world and couldnt get into it. Instead ive been tearing through the farseer trilogy, you guys should try assassin’s apprentice sometime, i legitimately cannot put these books down they are incredible! I definitely plan to give EOTW another shot in the future though, i feel like im missing out😂.
I just found this lol. But if he doesn’t like the third book he probably doesn’t like the wheel of time because this is the book where the wheel of time takes off in my opinion
I tapped out of this series about 1/3 in of this book. I just couldn’t take it anymore. All three books felt EXACTLY the same. Characters spend most of the books traveling to every inn in the land, repeating the same dialogue, and then finally a crazy climax that just isn’t worth it at the end. Also, all three books that I read had the exact same opening to the characters journey with a trolloc attack. Can we do something different? Please?
You guys always make some good points on why you like or dislike something. In the cases of RR, WoT, and SA, I'm on the fanboys side everytime. Seeing y'all talk down on these series makes me wonder, who hurt you? Haha WoT is worth it, keep reading for Sanderson Austin. Believe in me who believes in Sanderson who believes in you (maybe).
I think it depends on what about Book 4 isn’t connecting with Austin. Though I agree that if he’s not in by book 4 it could get rough. At that point Id let him have the tap out button and decide. Since Im enjoying the episodes and would be interested in when/if he stopped.
Perhaps you have read the books in 2 different moments of your readers maturity and that's why you have such different ways of seeing the books. After reading many other series which are better written, are more modern and with better pacing, if I were to read the Wheel of Time for the 1st time AND have youtube channel where I have to be critical about books, I would certainly notice more flaws and perhaps I would not enjoy the series as much. Do you think you would be more critical to the books, Richard, if you were to read them for the first time now that you have a youtube channel about books? Same question in reverse for Austin. Would you dislike them less if you didn't have the critical eye developed because of the channel (I mean as a casual reader)? Not sure if it makes sense :D
(Richard here) that very well may be so. I read the wheel of time after stormlight but still early on in my fantasy book journey. I do feel I am more critical now compared to when I first read them. A lot of the enjoyment from these, or any, books to to properly manage expectation. If you go into a story wanting something that is not offered or given, you will be disappointed. If, instead, you treat the book as a mystery to discover its purpose and angle, you will normally have a better time. I believe that is part of why I liked red rising less than Austin and WOT more than him.
@@2ToRamble haha I finished it last year I mean it goes from “what is going on, to wow this is great, to this is damned masterpiece” it’s not possible to over hype it, I think it really is an experience everyone should have. Sure it takes some patience but my god Can Erikson write. The writing is incredible, the world is epic, it’s dark, it’s funny, and over thousands and thousands of pages you get to travel with these characters in a way where it’s impossible not to get attached to them along the way and feel some type of impact from the series by the end in my opinion. I’m not brave enough to re read it yet but even glancing over passages after having read it you are like holy shit the layering in the writing is incredible when you revisit and know things you didn’t know the first time around. It sets a high bar though for everything you read after it.
@@2ToRamble Yeah! Don’t be intimidated by it, it can be a rabbit hole, but I like rabbit holes. Ten very big books does a good two to three chapter read along podcast I followed as I read to get the summaries after the chapters. Also don’t consider giving up until you at least finish book 3.
Richard is me trying convince my imaginary best friend wot is high literature
😂😂
I love how Rich explaining the plot makes these books sound even dumber than they are.
As someone who loves the series its super interesting to hear someone who does not enjoy it as much. Its like listening to an alien talk lol.
😂😂
I think I speak for everyone here, we absolutely will watch every Wheel of Time review no matter what. The podcast listening experience isn't any less enjoyable because of your feelings towards the series, Austin. If you were to give all 15 books a 5 out of 10 and we were just listening to Richard rave and you be indifferent we'd all still absolutely watch. It's completely on you. If you genuinely want to keep going with the series despite your apathy, do it! If you really just aren't interested at all after book 4 and you have little to no motivation or desire to finish the series, then don't finish it. We just like to hear you guys talk about books.
If I had to give an early prediction, I honestly doubt you will enjoy TSR. I imagine it will be more of the same for you. But I could be wrong. I don't want to set any expectations for you, but I think the ultimate key to this series is like Richard said, viewing each book as sort of installments or episodes in one long story. The 1000 page count and high praise surrounding the book might lead you to believe this is a huge, epic, memorable journey in the vein of a Sanderson book. That's what happened to me, at least. But it isn't really. It's just a really long Wheel of Time book. Don't expect to be floored; you will be disappointed that way.
Also, HOW does the wolf stuff not interest you? It's like the best part of the series for me. I fucking love wolves.
I'm reading Empire of SIlence by Christopher Ruocchio right now. Phenomenal book I know is probably somewhere on your guys' radar. The plot and protagonist and world-building stuff is all cool, but it's Ruocchio's prose that single-handedly sets him apart from the field. He is an incredible writer. Best thing I've read in months.
Cheers to you both, and happy reading.
Glad I read this - thankyou for the preface going into book 4, I think thatll help a lot! And yes that’s absolutely in our radar - can’t wait to read it. As for the wolves part - Ill do my best to explain in the next character section why that is, I have a bit of a lengthy response that comes to mind! But Im eager to get into book 4 even with my prior apathy, I think itll be cool regardless to see if this one breaks out from the rest for me. Appreciate the comment, cheers!
I hope you guys continue even if Austin hates every minute of it... Richard's impassioned arguments are so damn inspirational I feel like I should start re-read number three. Lol
😁😂 we’ll keep at it
Well shadow rising is our last hope. It’s an amazing book sooooooo if Austin doesn’t like this one there is something wrong with him 😅
*totally not nervous*
Austin! 1:37 When im having a rough time for whatever reason it may be. WoT is my comfort food if you will lol Wshs dishes, go for walks, mow the lawn, whatever task i can mindlessly do while listening , it just fades the pain away. And the series is SO long, you can be tucked into that comfort blanket for months while the brain heals.
Fair!!
I love the “newbie” takes! I’ve read the series like 30 times (mostly audiobook re-reads) and introduced several people to the series. These conversations are so great! I wish I was there.
I wanted to note that yes, the pattern of the gang parting and getting back together gets very old and predictable in these first three books. But remember that it’s not just laziness. It happens on purpose. The Wheel picks the threads- and these are the strongest threads- to force events when need be. Ta’veren working together can help the Wheel shape the events (Pattern) that need to happen.
Fortunately after this point Jordan relaxes the formula and deviates from it- arguably, a course has been set and the Pattern has a little wiggle room at times. ;) hahah
Austin, I agree with Richard that you should read book 4 and quit if you still dislike it. If only for your own enjoyment, since I like watching the discussion.
I wasn't very invested in the characters until book 4. I was pretty apathetic about finishing the series. But there are several moments in The Shadow Rising that made certain characters click for me, and I became hooked. It's weird to say it took so many books to get me hooked, and now I've read it 4 times and it's my favorite series (besides Stormlight Archive).
Hoping this happens for me, that’s encouraging 🙏
Don’t stop, I’ve been reading along with y’all and I look forward to yall discussing the series and finding things I didn’t notice.
If Austin doesn't like the next books, if he's willing to continue to read, I'd love to continue to have this series. I stopped reading half way through the first book, and based on some of Austin's critiques, I think I'd have a similar viewpoint as him, however I just love to consume fantasy and hear discussion on it. Austin's "negative" viewpoint doesn't detract from the vibe at all.
If Austin doesn’t like the next one, it’s joever
👀 *nervously reads every page of book 4*
I am new to reading the WoT books. I watched the show first. I am so in love with them. I just want to live in this world. I am on book 6 now, and none of them have taken me more then a week to read. I think it is benefiting me to be reading them back to back, not reading other books in between so they are like really long chapters.
I tried to do the audiobook for one of them so I could multitask, and I will say it is nothing like reading the books. I don't want someone else's emphasis on what I am reading. I think Austin should try reading one of the books instead of doing the audiobook.
I also think book 5 has been my favorite so far. I know a lot of people like book 4 the best, but I liked 5 more. Maybe just hoping if book 4 still has not gotten Austin on board, that he will keep going for book 5 :)
My enthusiasm level is the same as Richard's. I wish your podcasts would come out as fast as I am reading them so I could read along, but I know I will not pause now! I am too far down the rabbit hole.
Maybe book 5 will do it, but lets hope it’s book 4 😂 - and cheers, we’ll try to pump these videos out quicker and keep up with ya!
Book 4 is definitely a big step up in my opinion over book 1 and 2 (i really like book 3) but i would say at the very least go through book 5. getting through book 5 really advances some of these story lines to a great place and gives us some great moments. "Until yesterday i have followed men of other lands because i must, you i will follow because i want to... and i pledge myself your man".
Malazan is next? Finally, can't wait. Witness!
Witness!
Love your discussion guys!
I guess you guys are reading alot of other books in between, and that might be why its harder for Austin to get into it. When I read the series, I read all of them in a row, making it hard to seperate the books from eachother, but the whole series when its finnished is the best thing I ever read. Just like Richard is saying, the arcs does not play out over one book, but rather over the whole series.
I think Austin really should try to listen to what Richard is saying. Also I would suggest that he reads The Wheel Of Time for what it is and stop trying to make it something its not. It is one long story divided into 14 books. Not 14 books with diferrent stories.
Thanks for the episode :D
Cheers - appreciate it
Please don’t stop with these reviews! It makes them 100% more interesting because you don’t always agree!
Perfect timing! I finished book 3 last week for the first time! Excited to stay in sync
🤝
My favourite background thing in this book is Thom singlehandedly starting the Carien civil war.
Started my third reread because of you guys, still so much fun. I hope you continue the series, let it be Austins comfy series and let it take as long as it may. Cheers 🍻
Cheers 🥂 - glad you joined us on a reread!
I could listen to Richard talk about the wheel of time for hours on end. If Austin truly continues to hate the series it would be cool if Richard would make a short summary/favorite parts of each book videos. I really enjoyed the plot part of this video where he goes through it and explains what happened. I’m currently reading along with you guys!
Also side note - Richard, I’m currently reading name of the wind and I have to agree with you. It’s really not a good book
Listening to you guys talk is bringing back all the feelings of frustration I had with the characters. But also the thrill of the ending.
(I think of red rising every week because I DNF’d the first book but I can’t walk 2 steps without running into it so I gotta try it again)
Im guilty. Spamming people into reading Red Rising 😭
I been waiting for this ! Just got done with The shadow rising and loved it .
An interesting take on WoT vs LOTR, in that LOTR coneys so much in 3 books vs WoT taking much longer to convey. One difference I would point out regarding LOTR is that much of the history and descriptions that Jordan gives you in the main books, Tolkien gave in his other works like The Hobbit, the simarillian, etc. If someone has not read all of these other works, there is much in LOTR that does not make sense because there is a lack of context. An easy example of this is all the different names Gandolf goes by (or is referenced by) from various characters. In LOTR, you just accept and move on, which is fine...(it is what it is).
Robert Jordan, on the other hand, included all of this other information into the main story through (largly) organic exposition dumps. By the end of the WoT, you will understand all of the story like if you have read all of the Tolkien works. And much of the history components are done more like a story versus a text book. Just my opinion.
From someone who recently finished The Dragon Reborn.
During the scene where Rand beheads the Merchants im lime 90% sure he sensed a Grey Man. He said how he saw 7 people riding up, then got bad juju and realized he killed 8 people afterwards.
Especially b/c grey men can pass by unseen, im pretty positive he killed like 7 innocents to get one Grey Man
I always loved the scene of the girls getting Mat to take the letter because it shows them practicing how to be full Aes Sedai. It’s kind of cringey and immature, but you can see them trying.
Ahh I see your point!
Thats how i viewed it too. I always found really funny and entertaining watching the girls "play at" being Aes Sedai. I can't wait for them to actually get there.
To be clear mat was a jokester speaking the old tongue and gambling in the first book. The transition after completely removing the dagger is not a leap at all to me. It’s just a natural transition after the corruption of the dagger is removed.
Me before watching: Praying Austin will start liking the series 😭😭
Me after watching: Praying Austin will start liking the series 😭😭
I'm on your side Austin. I enjoyed Eye of the World enough to continue, and I really did enjoy The Great Hunt. But for me, my interest waned with each book after, until I left off with book 5 in 2020 (my last read before the world shut down).
I won't say that I quit, because in my mind I still plan to pick up Lord of Chaos. But it's not calling to me.
Sorry Richard, if you happen to read this...
When do you think you’ll get to reading Lord of Chaos? Hoping my interest picks up, but it happens - cant love every book. Maybe the repetitive structure in the first 3 got to you by book 3 as well? Without spoiling, what caused your interest to wane over time?
@@2ToRamble great question, and I think a lot of it had to do with the padded out writing. I enjoy the story itself, so my issue wasn't with subject matter.
I'm no stranger to said writing, but whereas many fans love just spending time in the world, I felt like it just took too long for me to read.
I'll probably pick up LoC early 2024. I've read a lot, and varied books since 2020, so I may find new interest.
Austin I feel so validated by your POV. This is EXACTLY what my experience with WOT was. I liked the first three even though I wasn’t crazy about them. Everyone said that WOT kicks into gear after book 4, and that’s where the series dropped off for me. I DNFd the series after book six. Dragon Reborn was the highest I ever felt through the series.
Hey there we go 🤠 - but damn, I hope I do like it as it goes on, which book was your least davorite of the first 6?
@@2ToRamble to be totally 1000% honest. Book 4 was my least favorite. The man needed a darn editor and half the book felt like Robert Jordan was retelling Dune. I mean A LOT like Dune. Once I saw it I couldn’t unsee it.
If I find your characters to be ok at best, your plots to be recycled elements from better books and only your worldbuilding being top notch, it’s really hard for me to carry on.
One of the problems that might be happening is that listening to an audio book and reading a book arn't the same thing. They can convey different experiances depending on the peformance or the audio narrator.
Wot Audio books are classic though. Most fans love them.
I think you’re in a turning point. Richard is really doing a great job of pumping Austin up and giving the vibe of why fans love this series despite its flaws.
I think Austin will probably enjoy Perrin in book 4 but maybe not so much Rand and Matt. Just finished book 4 myself for the first time and i definitely felt it's the best so far
Also relate to being more invested in Richard's descriptions haha
Who is your favorite character at the moment?
I’m almost halfway through The Shadow Rising. Looking forward to that video!
Just found your channel and I'm loving it! I'm also on my first readthrough of wot and although I think I'm liking it more than Austin, I can definitely see his criticisms, I'm also not absolutely in love with it yet but it feels so cozy and everytime I finish one book I find myself thinking about starting the next one more often than not (I like to read other things in between series to stop me from burning out).
I just looked back and Richard's previous ratings were 6.85 for EOTW and 7.4 for TGH. Looks like TGH barely eked out the higher rating even though Richard at 11:26 said this was his highest rated of the first three. Maybe the raw feelings from rereading this book made it seem like the book was rated higher despite what the combined categories ended up averaging out to?
Ahh thats probably it - hope Rich sees this to respond, Ill have to ask him next time when this comes up
Loved this podcast, can´t wait to watch your Shadow Rising review!!!!!!!!
Finished reading the 3rd book today. So far enjoying all of them with every book being better than the last!
I think regardless of how he feels about Shadow Rising he should continue. Additionally I'm also going thru WOT and i love seeing both perspectives and comparing it to the both of you. And lastly because I would like for this i continue to get to the Brando books!
Awesome - we will continue!
Richard I understand you so much bc as much as I respect Austin's opinion (it is indeed really interesting and in the majority of times real), I really think there's something in Austin's way of reading that didn't allow him to connect with the little moments and interactions from the characters. I've been thinking about it since he said he didn't see where or when Nynaeve and Lan's romance came from Lol.
Anyways it's so fun to watch you guys. Greetings from Argentina🇦🇷! (english isn't my first language so I apologize for any mistake in this comment)
Greetings!! Ill try to keep a keener eye - appreciate the feedback 👊
@@2ToRamble Wow! Thanks for the answer and (especially) thanks for continuing the series!
I still wanna see these videos even if Austin doesn’t get on the wheel. The disagreement is pretty fun! #TeamRichie
That scene is important too because the girls always talk about how they are being used and how they hate it but then immediately do the same when they need help. Super dynamic character and character development
This is the series that got me into the fantasy genre. Books 4/5 was where I really fell in love with it. The characters start to take more control of their destiny rather than being pushed around by others/fate. You have to keep going. Sando brings everything to such a satisfying conclusion you just have to trust that he will get you to the top of that mountain.
In Sando we trust
I am in a very similar place to Austin ( Sanderson fan, clawing my way through Wheel of Time, not feeling the hype). I have almost all the same criticisms and observations.
Regardless of how book 4 goes, I'd love to see you guys push through. Selfishly, I'd like to see if Austin feels the ending Sanderlanche is worth it.
I'll also say it is nice to hear Richard explain scenes and their thematic meaning. I feel like he's the curator at a museum and to see someone else appreciate something makes me appreciate it more.
Will hopefully push through - glad youre getting this perspective put of the review 👊
That thing about people having different perspectives is most obvious between men and women, but the next book should make it very clear with regard to Rand and Mat, at least, that different perspectives make a huge difference even when characters are the same sex. People keep secrets because "to fool your enemies, you must also fool your friends", and in that book, someone tries to also fool the reader. Which you might notice if you pay attention to when perspectives switch.
Thinking Mat was suddenly different or that he changed in book 3 is understandable, but not if you pay attention. For one, book 3 is the first time we get Mat's perspective. Second, as Richard points out, the dagger made him not-well for the latter half of book 1 and the whole of book 3. We simply didn't get to see him a lot, but in book 2 we did see his humor/frustration, for example when he had to pretend to limp in Cairhien, as well as the nonchalant way he blew the horn in Falme. Not so sudden a change, just less things preventing you from seeing who Mat is.
About continuing or not and Austin's enjoyment, it sounds like you should continue. It also sounds like the series is starting to grow on him, so even if it doesn't become a favorite it sounds like it should be fine.
If Austin likes book 4 at least as much as book 3, I suggest you guys power through until the end of book 6. Events at the end of book 5 and 6 may change his mind, especially given that he likes Red Rising.
Rand really starts becoming great in book 5 imo
Interesting - good to know and will keep reading on!
If he doesn’t like the early wheel of time books, he’s going to have a bad time with the middle books.
Which book is generally the least liked in the fandom?
@@2ToRamble Book 10 easily
I'm waiting for him to randomly give the slog a 9 or something. I doubt it will happen, but it would be hilarious.
lolol@@shughes5778
So, i get where Austin may be coming from. Having read Stormlight most of the way through before starting Wheel of Time i kind of get the having false expectations kind of thing. Youre really wanting these big character moments and they just dont come. But afterwards i start to realize while i think about what ive read and realize that "wow these characters really have grown or changed a bit"
Late to the party but if Austin isn’t enjoying reading then I don’t see the point in continuing for him but if he likes the post discussion (as I do) and as long as it isn’t a chore then I say keep her goin
Richard doing his best gleeman . Love the wot talk guys. Eagerly awaiting 4th installment.
I agree with Richard. I'm sorry, Austin, but The Dragon Reborn is a really good book lol. I'm hoping you like The Shadow Rising more than a 4.8 lol.
Started reading today 🫡
Okay I’m semi on board with both of you after book 3. I will say I’m really enjoying the series but no one book has really blown me away (I loved the book 2 ending though). That being said I loved Mat in this. I didn’t think his change was sudden because we waited so long for him to be fixed(?). He was my least favorite of the Emonds fielders, but now I’m on board with all three boys and loving it. I enjoyed the Rand break as well. I thought it added some intrigue to his character and made him seem like some sort of mythical character.
I know the decision has already been made, but it’s okay Austin. I will try Red Rising soon when I need a break. It’s free on audible
YES THE EPISODE IS HEREEEEE
Austin just gaslight yourself into liking it 😢 😂
😂😂
Thinking of Red Rising counts as thinking of the Roman Empire.
Truth
This was his first world building books
I think I liked WoT slightly more than Austin and ended up giving it up after book 4 or 5. I thought they were good books but just not my personal taste and wasn't invested enough. Definitely keen for some Malazan reviews one day!
I could not get through book 1. But I am all in on this meta plotline of Austin and book 4.
Will you be continuing the wheel of time or is it over
After hearing what he's got to say about the wheel of time books(at least these 3), I'm not even remotely excited to read red rising if this is how he views the books because i actually enjoyed every single one of them very much and I'm sad we won't be getting anymore of Richard enthusiastically talking about the books we love so much
I have so many thoughts! I just started book 12 yesterday... just for context.
* On Mat, man, I absolutely despised his character. At the beginning I found myself mostly thinking "why is this guy such a fan favorite? he sucks so much" I hated everything about his buffoonery, but now I'm like "yeah, he is pretty awesome" some time along the way I changed my mind on Mat, and I didn't even notice!
* Book 4 has some really interesting stuff in it. So I think you're onto something Austin. He (Robert Jordan) definitely feels more reserved all around in books 1-3. I didn't start getting invested until the Rhuidean chapters of book 4, and I think that's when Rand starts getting real interesting.
* I still agree with Austin about everything, but I'll give it to Richard, that it seems like the character work gets better as the story goes on. It's just happening veeeerrryyyy slowly.
* I'm not super invested still, here at the beginning of book 12, but I finally got to the Sanderson books, so I'm really curious to see if I have the same gripes still or if it sticks the landing.
* I also have problems with the prose, and I find the repetitiveness of description annoying. Like at this point, I just groan out loud when I see/hear arms folding beneath breasts, or braid tugging. I can't stand it anymore, it drives me off the wall. That type of repetitive descriptor is my least favorite thing about these books.
* Lastly, I think y'all should finish this read and series! I'm really curious to see if Austin changes his mind along the way on some stuff too. It makes me feel very validated to hear his thoughts on this, cause for a long time I felt like I was just not reading the same books as everyone else. Though I'll understand if he decides to not finish it.
Thanks for all the thoughts- we’re going to keep going, and glad to see you had similar thoughts as me and although it hasnt totally hooked you yet, seems like things are getting better. Hope the Sando books do it for ya 🙌
One more thing I can agree with Austin on emotional impact and how you really don’t connect with the characters…. It’s rover Jordan’s quirks he gives every character and just repeats it until the end of Time. Braid tugging for example… my goodness. Lana face of stone. Loials hot dog fingers.
The lore and world building is so dang good that I look past most of this. But sometimes it creeps up and because EXAUSTING that it takes away from impactful moments.
Finishing the books faster than the postal service can ship them from ‘Murica to Denmark… Feelsbadman
Having just finished Dragon Reborn, I gotta say that the ending felt a little flat to me, especially compared to the second book. Aside from that, I’m still completely hooked and interested in seeing where the series is going from here. It still very much feels like just the beginning at this point.
Love to tune into these vids when I finish reading a book, Austin hurry up bruh! Plz
I keep looking at the Locked Tomb series on the shelf... would love to hear your thoughts on those books! I thought Harrow was the best sequel I've read since Golden Son.
I (Richard) liked the first book, but I have not read the second book yet due to comments about it being in 2nd person perspective and not really enjoyable till the end. Would you say otherwise? Should I give it a shot?
@@2ToRamble The second-person perspective is certainly a bit jarring at first, but Muir didn't just do it for fun. It's a plot-relevant stylistic choice which really pays off, in my opinion. I consumed Harrow in the span of about three days and found it super enjoyable throughout thanks to cool sci-fi worldbuilding and great characters. Based on your ratings of other books on this channel, I'd say that my own opinions generally track with yours quite closely and I loved this book. Give it a go!
I'll try to fit it into the schedule. No promises as yet. I believe the next sci-fi book after Lightbringer will be suneater. I'll see if I can read Harrow on the side.
If Austin doesn't like Book 4 I say make him read the rest of the series as a punishment and a lesson on why you should always appreciate art.
😁😂
I read 3 books of wheel of time but I’ll read shadow rising… I’ll agree that wheel of time is abit overwhelming so should read them then take a break before reading the next book.
Finished this today. My biggest complaint with the first three books is that the endings feel rushed. There were a lot of great parts in dragon reborn, good buildup to tear, but I just left it unsatisfied.
In general I'm in the 6.8 neighborhood, but I'm into it. Great world building, mediocre execution. Looking forward to you guys doing book 4.
I just finished "The Dragon Reborn" and for me, every book has been better than the last, so I'm excited for "The Shadow Rising." Hopefully, Austin likes it so the reviews keep coming. I really enjoy watching them after I finish each book.
P.S. If Austin didn't listen to Rosamund Pike's narration of the first three books, he’s missed out. She's the best narrator I've come across.
Totally agree with the less of bland Rand the better. I just finished this book last week and i hate to say it but I LOVED that Rand barley got POV's. Contary to you guys i actually really dislike Perrin's POVs along with Rand.
I was so happy we got to spend a significant amount of time in the white tower this book. I feel like this series gains alot of life whenever we have Aes Sedai on screen. I felt a little bit robbed in book 2 as we had hyped up Tarvalon for so long only spend a couple chapters and then move on. Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne is defintley the standout group for me and i really enjoyed the hunt for the Black Aja storyline they are giving us. It's so engaging to watch the 3 of them really grappling with what it means to be Aes Sedai and trying to live up to that standard. Also Siuan is another seriously awesome character and I love watching the way she manoeuvres things.
My hopes for future books, if it wasnt already clear, is a lot more Aes Sedai. Particularly i would like to see Rand in the tower. I want to see how he deals with all these factions of women trying to use him and how he battles against that.
My current ratings are: EoTW-5/10, TGH-6.5/10, TDR-10/10
Sweet - are you starting book 4 soon 👀
@@2ToRamble I actually started book 4 yesterday!
Wow, it's weird to see someone who has the exact opposite opinion of me. The three girls are probably my least favorite characters, though Elayne isn't too bad most of the time.
It’s not miscommunication it’s literally just more realistic. That’s every aspect of this series that you think it’s frustrating. From eye of the world to memory of light. Every time I’m like man wtf are these women doing. Or what’s this guy doing. Why don’t they just talk. Yea because all of that is more realistic. That’s what RJ set out to write.
Just finished book 3 for the first time. I liked it. But yes the formula just feels like stranger things/ monster of the week. I think the series will have so much more impact on a second read because how deep the foreshadowing goes. I’m excited to continue on!
It's interesting because I am on Richard side. I think about WoT more than I do than Red Rising. There are more memorable scenes that is interesting to digest.
Fair!
I recently got my friend into WoT(she's at book 4) and shes having a blast! Arguably enjoying them more than me, and reading them 3x faster than i did. So these reviews (which are super fun btw) are complete whiplash from hearing my friend gush over the series, and my joy at living vicariously through her completely incorrect theories.... to Austin's lack of good taste 😜
But seriously Austin, hope you like book 4 (its one of my favs). I'm starting Red Rising this month based on your praise. Really looking foward to it!
I hope I do too! And hope you love Red Rising, let’s see a future where I come back praising book 4 and you’re praising Red Rising (or at least liking it a lot, im a bit of an insane fan) 🥂
I think you missed one crucial point as well. All these characters (the Emond's Fields 5) are basically teenagers as well. Just 16-18 years old (Nynaeve being in her early 20's). You gotta factor in their emotional immaturity in this too and how they're all forced to become more mature at a much faster pace than normal too.
One big example of this is the Shadar Logoth dagger and Mat. That's why Mat followed Mordeth to the 'treasure'. He's a kid who has grand thoughts about the world and hasn't had the chance to determine right from wrong completely. Even though there are beasts and an evil incarnate character, the idea that another human would harm them is a foreign concept to them!
My first read through, I wasn't ready for WoT, and just wanted the big action moments. When I reread it, I liked it far better. It's not because I know what will come, it's because his character writing is so good that I could read it for each decade of my life and get something different.
Prose is far better than you're giving it credit. He is way better at description, atmosphere, etc than Sando or Brown. Far better. Now you bring in other books like Dune or something, then we have a discussion
so how far in the series is part that you "know will come" lol? where is the payoff?
@@Rumham7291 There are layers and layers of payoff. Rand's arc is arguably the best I've ever read (I'll include movies etc). There's setup and payoff throughout. If one can read Dumais Wells and not be blown away, I'd be amazed.
But, I don't think it's the best teenage or possibly twenties book unless you can read much further than surface level
Interesting - prose wasn’t a highlight for us but totally get it, glad you love it 🫡
Alright I was going to comment on the first video but then I binge watched the next two so here’s my thoughts on your guys thoughts on Robert Jordans thoughts he wrote down on paper.
Highest rate was a 6 for world building through three books. This guy. The definition of modern fantasy over epic. Nothing wrong with that, but we’re being forced to sift through the same conversations for him to inevitably say that “as an epic fantasy, it’s thee standard.”
This is the classic WoT fan vs the world, if someone isn’t hooked by book two just drop it. RJ doesn’t change and by the time you get to Sanderson you’ll rue the day you decided to suffer through an epic when you could’ve read something you like. It’s not that you won’t come to love the wheel of time, you most likely will. Your issue with the series is the presentation of the series and that doesn’t change.
I’d imagine the fandom will give you plenty of views on here, and if you keep at this pace you’ll be able to constantly make content on Show vs Books, and I will probably listen to all of them- just know Black hair guy, you’re allowing Robert Jordan to be your deciding factor on epic fantasy in which you clearly could’ve chosen other authors more your speed- and hope that you’ll take the Tolkien glasses off to read this series at some point.
Your EOTW critique- while fair- was a huge red flag in this journey lol. If you determined the works derivative, you would’ve done well to look into RJ a little bit before continuing! Your bald friend did very little on camera to assure you that RJ was intentional in his homage! Everything after that has seemed to be a comparison directly between authors you love, who write a style you love, against a pure epic fantasy which clearly isn’t your preference. Almost upsetting to see you read so much and not see what’s actually happening.
That all probably sounded a little harsh and I apologize if you feel that way. Hopefully TSR will prove to you that often times it’s you who needs a change in perspective… flicker
Black hair guy here - not harsh at all, your thoughts make sense and will do best to keep an open mind - cheers!
Min is my favourite character so far. I like them all now but Min I wish she had bigger parts.
I need to catchup with you guys... on my third reread but at eotw.
Nice!
11:27 Richard's Great Hunt-Rating was higher. 😂
Thank you for fact checking 😂😂
I'm doing my first read of WoT and I've been listening to your episodes of the first three books the day after I finished them. I really love your conversations on the series because I'm definitely enjoying it more than Austin but not loving it at the level of Richard, so I share opinions with both of you, and is so much fun to listen to. Are you doing book 4? Or have you given up?
Book 4 review coming in next 2 weeks!
@@2ToRamble OMG I'll have to read quick!
Maybe I'm being unfair because he's attacking a series I've spent the last 2 years reading, but it does feel like Austin is just saying "I didn't like the characters in Eye of the World, therefore there is no character development in all of the Wheel of Time"
If memory serves, Kaladan has a moment with a spren during a very low point, (is that what they’re called?). And while cool. I mean really cool. I loved it cool, it’s an external motivation in his life that brings him in from the edge. Jordan has his characters explore themselves in their evolution, while being assaulted by the dark one and his minions, and your bored? And you discount Jordan with scores so low? Maybe you need a different perspective? Or maybe I’m wrong? Kaladan’s journey from that low point is one of my favorites in fantasy, but he’s as good as Matt, Perrin, and Rand. The one thing I dislike about Kaladan: he peeks at book 2, and becomes … wait for it … boring. Dull. Jordan gives growth over 14 books, which makes those characters last throughout the series. He divides it out slowly.
I think I can see the cogs starting to turn with Austin.
*the cog weaves as the cog wills*
Having never read this series as a 30 year old but definitely wanting to, could Richard please pitch me on the series? What am I in for? The only thing I know about it is that it's 14 books long. (15 with New Spring I'm aware) Long series don't bother me at all. I'm afraid if I research it I'll come across spoilers which I'd like to avoid.
Richard here. The WOT is in tone the bridge between classic and modern fantasy. You will see troups and themes that are in modern fantasy now that was popularized by series like the WOT. The series itself is more than the sum of its parts. The character journey is over multiple books. So, each book won't feel like an end to a book but an end to a chapter. The worldbuilding feels alive, like tolkien. The characters are frustrating because they are understandable. You, as the reader, know more than the characters, so you know the right decision, but the character doesn't, which leads to conflict. With 14 books, I understand these characters more than any other series. This series is not for everyone. You have to be able to enjoy a slow paced read and trust that it goes somewhere. There are many points in the book that feel pointless, but trust me, it ties together. Overall, it has a great message on how men and women are different and valuable in their own way with their own short comings. They are unbeatable when they work together with honesty. I do hope you love it 😁
Thank you very much. I'm definitely interested in reading the series. I have The Eye of the World for now. Figured I'd read it and see how that goes. I definitely love the dynamic you guys have on here, it works well. Also nothing against Austin, but I mentioned Richard in my original comment because I know he loves the series, and has read it in its entirety. You both are awesome, and definitely entertaining to listen to. I look forward to your videos every week.
Looks like i'm early. I have been waiting for this one hahaha
Lads can you please review The Shadow Rising, I am reading it in April as part of a monthly read-along on my channel and if there's no 2 to Ramble to watch afterwards I will be sad
7 hours of audiobook left 🙏
@@2ToRamble 🥲 this has made me so happy. The Rosamund Pike audiobook for this one was dope too.
Hi :) Can I use a clip of Austin saying the statistic about how long Rand is in the book for one of my videos?
Thanks in advance! its ok if no :)
Edit: I'm making a video ranking the WoT books***
Go ahead. Go nuts!
@@2ToRamble thanks I ended up using a screenshot of your RUclips page :))
I have only read the first 4 books and felt totally the same with Austin. I feel relieved listening him lol.
4th one was good but I feel like I hate so many thing in this series so I don't think I will ever continue with the 5th one.
Was the 4th a big step up for you or just a tiny step up from the first 3? Im curious going in if I’ll start to get real invested or not. Glad you found solace in my negativity 😭😂
@@2ToRamble I give 5/10 rating to book 3 but this rating is effected by the fact that it was structured the same way as the first two books. If the book 3 was some sort of standalone book, I would rate i a little bit higher. For the book 4, I give 6.5/10. Changing the structure helped it a lot for me. And the pacing issue you mentioned in this video is a little bit better in 4th book imo.
Btw, I loved the solution you proposed for the pacing issue in the book 3 (starting a chapter with Mat saying "no" to the abusive hateful girl trio.) This does not only speed it up, it also adds a little bit more to the prose quality which I always felt lacking in wot books. Psycho girls could try to seduce/abuse/force him to do it after he refuses, it would still be better than the original. This type of problems happens a lot. Some people have the same thought and conversations over and over again.
What is Richards opinion on books 6? That’s my next one
Book 6 is awesome. Some of the most exciting moments in the series, with some devastating characters moments.
I tried reading eye of the world and couldnt get into it. Instead ive been tearing through the farseer trilogy, you guys should try assassin’s apprentice sometime, i legitimately cannot put these books down they are incredible! I definitely plan to give EOTW another shot in the future though, i feel like im missing out😂.
Rich has read the Farseer trilogy (or at least book 1) - Ill still have to check it out, heard Robin Hobb is amazing
Mat was carrying a dagger out of Hell. Then he wasn't. That's why change...
Love to see the discussion! I love wheel of time, I'm reading it the second time too. Better then Lotr. Are you guys listening or reading it?
(Richard here) I am listening to the audiobook this time around.
(Austin here) - Im also listening to the audiobook
I just found this lol. But if he doesn’t like the third book he probably doesn’t like the wheel of time because this is the book where the wheel of time takes off in my opinion
I tapped out of this series about 1/3 in of this book. I just couldn’t take it anymore. All three books felt EXACTLY the same. Characters spend most of the books traveling to every inn in the land, repeating the same dialogue, and then finally a crazy climax that just isn’t worth it at the end.
Also, all three books that I read had the exact same opening to the characters journey with a trolloc attack. Can we do something different? Please?
Oh my sweet summer child.
The repetition was one of the weakest points for me (austin) as well - hoping book 4 breaks out of that
Have you gentlemen read Blood Song by Anthony Ryan? He authored The Pariah, but Blood Song is by far the superior book.
I (Richard) have read the first 2 books. Really liked the first book but thought the second book was just ok.
@2ToRamble agreed, and the third is nothing to write home about either, but does close up some of the ideas introduced in the second book well enough.
Iv just started book 5 for the first time but mat is my favourite so far, perrin and rand have had better moments but Mat is so relatable and fun
Mat is amazing in five. And rarely for WoT, there ist this one of these big character-moments, Austin wished for in the video.
You guys always make some good points on why you like or dislike something. In the cases of RR, WoT, and SA, I'm on the fanboys side everytime. Seeing y'all talk down on these series makes me wonder, who hurt you? Haha
WoT is worth it, keep reading for Sanderson Austin. Believe in me who believes in Sanderson who believes in you (maybe).
😂😂. Now I must read them all. Great comment
I think it depends on what about Book 4 isn’t connecting with Austin. Though I agree that if he’s not in by book 4 it could get rough.
At that point Id let him have the tap out button and decide. Since Im enjoying the episodes and would be interested in when/if he stopped.
Fair!
Perhaps you have read the books in 2 different moments of your readers maturity and that's why you have such different ways of seeing the books.
After reading many other series which are better written, are more modern and with better pacing, if I were to read the Wheel of Time for the 1st time AND have youtube channel where I have to be critical about books, I would certainly notice more flaws and perhaps I would not enjoy the series as much.
Do you think you would be more critical to the books, Richard, if you were to read them for the first time now that you have a youtube channel about books? Same question in reverse for Austin. Would you dislike them less if you didn't have the critical eye developed because of the channel (I mean as a casual reader)?
Not sure if it makes sense :D
(Richard here) that very well may be so. I read the wheel of time after stormlight but still early on in my fantasy book journey. I do feel I am more critical now compared to when I first read them. A lot of the enjoyment from these, or any, books to to properly manage expectation. If you go into a story wanting something that is not offered or given, you will be disappointed. If, instead, you treat the book as a mystery to discover its purpose and angle, you will normally have a better time. I believe that is part of why I liked red rising less than Austin and WOT more than him.
It’s been three months please please please review book 4😭💀 I need to know if he changes his mindddd
I'm really curious to know what you guys think of the five warrior angels trilogy by brian lee durfee!!
We’ve been hearing that lately - is it one of your favorites?
@@2ToRamble definitely. Highly underrated. Binged the entire series.
If Austin is patient with malazan, and makes it through that series I can promise you it will be the best thing he has ever read.
👀👀
@@2ToRamble haha I finished it last year I mean it goes from “what is going on, to wow this is great, to this is damned masterpiece” it’s not possible to over hype it, I think it really is an experience everyone should have. Sure it takes some patience but my god Can Erikson write. The writing is incredible, the world is epic, it’s dark, it’s funny, and over thousands and thousands of pages you get to travel with these characters in a way where it’s impossible not to get attached to them along the way and feel some type of impact from the series by the end in my opinion. I’m not brave enough to re read it yet but even glancing over passages after having read it you are like holy shit the layering in the writing is incredible when you revisit and know things you didn’t know the first time around. It sets a high bar though for everything you read after it.
What a pitch! Thank you for pushing this on higher on the TBR!!@@Spock800
@@2ToRamble Yeah! Don’t be intimidated by it, it can be a rabbit hole, but I like rabbit holes. Ten very big books does a good two to three chapter read along podcast I followed as I read to get the summaries after the chapters. Also don’t consider giving up until you at least finish book 3.