The Awful Reality of Batman in the Early 2000s
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- An honest look at the Batman comics in the early 2000s, with stories such as New Gotham, Evolution, Tower of Babel, Officer Down, Bruce Wayne: Murderer?/Fugitive and the unfortunate situation surrounding the retirement of Denny O'Neil.
Patreon: / salazarknight
Gotham Noir Spotify Playist: open.spotify.com/playlist/5ge...
Chapters:
00:00 Riddle me this...
00:53 New Gotham, Same Batman
05:32 Evolution't
14:54 Paid For In Blood
22:22 Commissioner O'Neil: Editor Down
29:36 2001: A Bat Odyssey
37:45 Murderer/Fugitive - The Awful Reality of Batman
Music by White Bat Audio, Black Chamber, Jesper Kyd, Radare, French Fuse, Bohren der Club of Gore, Godmode and Aaron Kenny
Sources:
Interviews with Greg Rucka:
Part 1: comicsalliance.com/greg-rucka...
Part 2: comicsalliance.com/paid-for-i...
Part 3: comicsalliance.com/batman-gre...
Joe Ilidge's Statement:
web.archive.org/web/202011010...
Chuck Dixon's Statement: (minute 23-25):
• Ask Chuck Dixon #163 T...
Abandoned Riddler Hidout concept art by Hamada: www.artstation.com/artwork/9m... 
Развлечения
In regards to what you have coming up: I was recently in my local comic shop with my 10 year-old grandson. By the register, was an illustration of Batman by Frank Miller from the Dark Knight Strikes Again. He said, "Is that supposed to be Batman?" I said, "A lot of us asked that question at the time."
are you referring to the cover art?
Frank Miller is an... interesting character. I just can't look past All Star Batman and Robin. Insanely good art, just plain insane writing
@@zehkiel8018 that's what makes it fun, though. 😄
i really miss the old style and look of Gotham City. although it's now modernized,the original version of Gotham will always have a special place in our heart.
I really miss the old Kanya!
Not to be pedantic but isn't it kinda funny to call it the "original version" of Gotham City when you're really describing the post-Silver Age version?
@@EdmondDantes224 Not only that, but it was really introduced after the 89 movie, so it lasted only like ten years.
The popularity of Adam West and the 1966 TV series saved Batman from being canceled by DC comics. So give some respect to that show.
He's already covered that
@@ItsOver9000Productions what are you talking about? Within the first six seconds of this video there’s a direct insult to Adam West and the TV show
@@richardmark9161 in earlier videos in this series I mean.
@@ItsOver9000Productions what does that have to do with the first six seconds of this video?
Was the proper acknowledgment given in earlier videos?
Were those acknowledgments undercut by the insult in this video?
@@richardmark9161 yes. He's made a great series acknowledging what has helped and hurt Batman over the years and Adam West Batman did both.
And he wasn't exactly disrespecting it on this video either. He's just saying that some people think it's the worst era. That's just some peoples opinions.
Tower of Babel works cause it's Batman's worst impulses of paranoia twisted by someone monstrous like Al Ghul. Hell even JL Doom did justice to that by the end line about his contingency plan: The League itself.
While I like the idea behind Tower of Babel, I hate the implications that came with it. This story plus the Dark Knight Returns made Batman in the eyes of writer and reader alike some infallible badass able to punch several weight classes above his weight. At least in Babel, the JL managed to get themselves out of those deathtraps. In Doom, Batman has to coach them out of the traps. It makes everyone look bad at the expense of making Batman 'look cool' also, the idea that it takes the JL to stop him is either the writer believes Batman's ego is that inflated or that that person greatly overestimates Batman's capabilities.
@@HillthugstaObviously you dont know much about Batman.
@@Hillthugsta They weren't 'deathtraps'. They were meant to neutralise(incapacitate) the JL, not kill them. It's where the video went wrong as well. It was never about killing anyone and that's what tripped up Ra's as well. In a world where there are like at least 15 evil versions of each superhero, and mind control via various means is hilariously common, it actually makes perfect sense. I stopped watching the video at this point though, as it seemed the video maker didn't bother to put in the effort to realise that much and capped it off with being condescending to people who liked it.
In regards to Batman's ego though, I think he fully believes the league can stop him, but if they go rogue, that's going to be a big problem for a 'mere' human like him to stop them. It's why he hates Amanda Waller, but realises there is some necessity to her.
@@ruekurei88I’m with you on this one. This video was a character study of Batman from someone who never studied Batman. Just a pretty bad take overall.
I mean I argue Tower of Babel is still bad because like over half of the plans make no sense logically.
With that I mean they rely on personality traits Batman learned about them.
However every sensible scenario in which these plans would be used by anyone other than brainwashed evil Batman would all of these plan fail.
Like how is making Wonder Woman keep fighting gonna work when she is actually remote controlled by Starro and so sees right through the trick?
The design of these plans makes it look less like "how to stop the Justice League if they are turned evil" and more like "How to take down the justice League if they get in the way of MY form of justice"
The early 2000s was the era of Hush as well as Under the Hood, which were two massively important storylines (even if Hush is a bit overrated). Then you had the Grant Morrison run in the late 2000s-early 2010s which I will honestly say is one of the best eras period.
Nah bro, the Zur-En-Arrh Arc of Grant's run on Batman was wild. I appreciate trying to reintroduce one of the wackier Batman lore elements in a more grounded setting, but TBATB show honestly did the best update on ZEA Bats.
Yeah but I think he was discussing the post-Cataclysm/No-MansLand era from about late 1999 until about September of 2002, right before Hush started.
Batman started getting good again after War Games ended. That was when you got Hush and Red Hood in the lead up to Infinite Crisis.
That's really sad to hear how O'Neil was treated at DC. Unpopular opinion but O'Neil did more for making Batman great than Frank Miller.
I actually have several issues from this era. I used to be a big Rucka fan but over time I realized how disjointed the stories became towards the end
Is not an unpopular opinion, is a FACT.
I remember that one reason Bob Schreck probably got the job was because he was Frank Miller's editor on "Sin City" at Dark Horse Comics and Miller initially wanted Archie Goodwin to be his editor on "The Dark Knight Strikes Again"; after Goodwin passed away, Miller wanted DC to hire Schreck to be his editor on his Dark Knight Returns sequel. Reading between-the-lines, there was some fallout between Miller and Denny O'Neil that kept Miller from wanting to work with Denny. Regardless, this gave Schreck a lot of clout at DC when he came in - he was also going to edit Kevin Smith's "Green Arrow" book.
Denny's "illness" Rucka is referring to is most-likely the heart attack he had around that time, which he would confide about in interviews a few years later. I think O'Neil abruptly stepping down and Schreck taking over had more to do with O'Neil needing to take care of himself than anything else. It's a pity that his initial idea for the direction that the Batman books would take (Batman - superhero, Detective - crime/police stories, Gotham Knights - Batman's "Family") veered off and back into carrying crossovers again. Eventually, both the Superman and Batman lines started generating massive crossover storylines in an effort to cover up constant improvisations by making it seem like they meant it to happen the way they did - "Our World's At War", "Infinite Crisis".
I low key wished Doug Moench became O’Neil’s successor. With Darwin Cooke to being the main writer/artist the main Batman Title. Cooke’s art gives off the pulp noir/detective feel with which like you stated O’Neil was moving towards.
@@ebenezeronile interesting choices, but I remember some apocryphal stuff from a long interview with Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle - O'Neil had been delegating authority to his Assistant Editors for a long time in the late-90's and they were eager to fire Moench and Grant; they liked Chuck Dixon and Devin Grayson, though.
28:58, the two henchmen aren’t named Dennis and Neal for Dennis O’Neil but for Dennis O’Neil and Neal Adams!
I was delighted to see you rip this sordid era of Batman apart. Sadly the worst is still yet to come in terms of Bob Schreck’s catastrophic reign as Batman Group Editor.
We truly will never have another Dennis O’Neil again. 😞
Forgive me if I ask, but aren't you the owner of the Batlore wordpress blog ?
If so, your blog has been quite helpful !
@@saidi7975 why yes that is my blog. Glad it was helpful to you!
Is bob Shrek an all star😂
Ah, thank you for pointing out he hypocrisy of Batman's elaborate contingency plans for his friends yet simultaneously lacking the same dedication for his own villains.
I like Batman but sometimes he's written really for lack of a better word edgy.
That's what it sells i'm afraid, just like Spider-man living in never ending suffering. That's why i am a fan of the theory that Dark Knight Strikes again and all subsequent stories on that universe are a parody.
The 2000’s was a mixed era for DC and Marvel in general, on one hand you had stuff like New Avengers and Johns’ Green Lantern, on the other hand, you had stuff like One More Day and Identity Crisis.
New Avengers sucks. bendis ruined the team forever in Disassembled.
@@EvandroACruz I think it’s good, along with a lot of other people, at least the first volume
I guess I'm really GenX old school, but Spiderman was never meant to be part of a team. It was an unspoken rule from the 70s to the late 80s.
@@juniorjames7076 good point but the rest of the team worked
New Avenger was horrible. That era ruined Marvel Comics forever. All that bad stories just setting for next horrible clash between Heroes vs Heroes messed dynamic in Marvel Universe. Bendis is a hack.
You mentioned Larry Hama. He is under - appreciated writer. He created the original G.I. Joe comics that I liked as a kid. He was a Vietnam veteran, so he knew military stuff. He later wrote an excellent limited series called Nth man, which was one of the best ninja-style comics ever. He also wrote the Wolverine series for a while.
He also contributed to Marvel's excellent _The 'Nam_ anthology series about the Vietnam War.
I adore Hama's Wolverine.
I hope the batman 2004 gets a mention, that was my childhood
Mine too! It was my introduction to the greater Batman mythos
SAME
Still my favorite iteration
That opening theme remains in my head rent free! Also one of my favorite Gotham city designs!
Great show
Murderer and Fugitive were pretty good. The Sasha Bordeaux subplot was quite poignant.
I knew Schreck was a hack when, in an interview, he described getting the first script for Miller's disgraceful _All-Star Batman & Robin_ : "I'm a forty-year-old man giggling like a kid, 'Shucks, this great!'"
As for Larry Hama, it's fair to point out that the tone of the books was imposed on him by higher-ups... Looking back at his interview, it explains a lot...
Given how the man wrote the best Wolverine run and is famous for his work on GI Joe, I can totally believe that.
In the early 2000s I think Time Warner had a huge influence on what was published. That would explain the "new guard " power struggle with new "Yes Men". Also, the industry was drastically changing then. Writers quit working together as teams, and held back in pitch meetings, and writing on side titles because head title writers got all the glory. Once again you've made a extraordinary in depth peice. Bravo and thank you sir!!
Those early ‘00s issues of Detective from Rucka and Martinbrough were honestly some of the best Batman comics of all time. Great stories and visually inventive. Loved them.
Absolutely, that's one of my favourite runs
100%. Rucka, Brubaker, and Dini gave us some amazing Batman comics in the early-mid 2000s
Rucka also helped create the current Batwoman, though, which effectively cancels out any good he's ever done for the Batman imprint.
There was an issue where Batman called up Aquaman and had him fish the Giant Penny out of the water near the cave. Maybe all the major repairs were just favors from the Justice League.
Batman Murderer/Fugitive was the first ever “adult” comic I read. It still holds a place in my heart and I loved hearing everything about the storyline!
Soo good! Hearing all the behind the scenes was a real treat!
I want to thank you for explaining these later years of Batman for me, and putting it all in context. Hey, I'm happy for people who discovered Batman in the 2000s and enjoyed it , but by 1997 I was completely DONE with his comics- you perfectly explained why. Batman in the comics became unrecognizable to me, and personally I took it as a signal to maybe "grow up" and move on. I vividly remember just browzing over new issues at comic shops and Barnes & Nobles Bookstores and actually being disgusted with the sloppy cheap writing. By 2002 I was done with both DC and Marvel Comics, and was only buying small indie press and foreign books from Europe and Asia. On the bright side Indie publishing had literally taken over by 2000s and I had adult friends who NEVER read comics in the 90s who were now reading Saga, Love & Rockets, etc.
Agree to disagree
I think you got the Scott McDaniel and Brubaker dynamic wrong.
Brubaker had an interview years after he left DC and he talked about how frustrating his time on the main Batman title was. He didn't like that he was put on the ''action/Superhero book'' because he cared more about slower more dialogue driven stories that focus more on psychology and inner turmoil, but he was forced to do action most of the time because McDaniel is an action artist whose style didn't really mesh well with the type of slow paced noir stories he wanted to tell.
Brubaker also talked about his frustration with his Catwoman run and how it was derailed by tie-ins with bigger line-wide events and by DC turning down his pitch for the second half of the series (before using elements of that same pitch after he left).
The first issues and up until #24 of his Catwoman run were great, and they simply played to his strenghts as a writer. Strengths that he would take to a whole other level during his time on Captain America and Daredevil when he left and went to MARVEL shortly after as he was done with DC's bullshit.
Brubaker also got to writer actual noir and detective, dialogue focused stories with smaller scale and slower pace during his short run on Detective Comics (e.g Dead Reckoning and Made of Wood) which were pretty good before him and Rucka worked on Gotham Central which was also dialogue based and way less action heavy and it was one of the brightest spots in the Batman books of the early 2000s. There is a reason Nolan's Joker was inspired from a storyline from this series (Soft Targets) and it's no wonder that people are excited for him being a head writer on the new Batman animated series that is supposed to be noir driven.
You're 100% right. I abolutely loved Brubaker's Gotham Noir Elseworlds and Gotham Central is pretty good too. And although that interview you mentioned might explain a lot of things, it still doesn't take away from the fact that the main Batman run was not good. I will admit that Dead Reckoning is indeed better than his main Bat run, but still lacking in some areas.
@@SalazarKnight I'm not saying that his main Batman run was great. I'm just saying that you got the reason for why it wasn't great and the dynamic between him and McDaniel wrong.
Great video - the office down story/Denny Neil retirement makes perfect sense! Chuck Dixon has stated on his channel that the Azrael series was a retirement severance for Denny - guaranteed to run 100 issues with him no matter what sales levels were (cool of DC to do that).
Already watched the whole thing, four times
Awesome!! But let's make it to 10 next time lol
Yeah do better lol
DC comics and Bob Shreck deserved the DKSA story after how Denis was treated. So for that reason I can enjoy the story unashamedly.
Dude this comment made my day XD
Hell yeah!
I find it AMAZING that you have a low opinion of JLA: Tower of Babel. 12:40-13:45
Its deserved. That story did a lot of 'damage' to Batman.
@@Hillthugsta How did it damage him?
@@Christ2010Gradmake Batman a paranoid,piece of sht
@@Christ2010Grad It popularized the idea that Batman can beat anyone with enough prep time...Ironic, given that the story was trying to show why the idea of Batman having contingency plans to take down the Justice League was a bad thing for someone who's supposed to be working on a team dedicated to doing good in the world.
@@Hillthugsta Batman acted like his The New Batman Adventures counterpart at that moment.
I personally loved this era of Batman! Devin Grayson's Gotham knights run and the Bruce Wayne murderer/fugitive saga are some of my favorite Batman comics!
Gotham Knights! Omg so good!
Yeah they were so good
Devin grayson, didn't she write nightwing???
@@PizzaTime1983 yes she did I haven't read that run yet.
Yes! The ones that include the whole family are so good!
I disagree about Tower of Babel. How many times did the JL fought against villains like Starro or Eclipso, who could control their minds? How many times did they fought evil versions of themselves who took over their planet? I don't think Batman would go through this experiences and just simply say "Ok, we solved this today so it will never happen again".
Also, Batman does has a history of allies turning against him and becoming villains (ex: Harvey Dent and Jason Todd), so it' understanble he would have trust issues, specially with his friends, who are all super-humans. Sure, we can argue that Batman could at least tell the members of the JL about his plans, but this could take away one Batman big advantage in the team, that everybody understimate him, thinking he's just a guy in bat-suit when he a genius and strategic (a detail that help him save the JL in some adventures). If he told the heroes about his plans, then, whenever one of them turn against the JL, Batman would be his/her first target.
One problem is that he should've TOLD them he had contingencies. Especially with the fact that some later comics imply he'd only be able to use certain contingencies if other teammates could help him execute them.
@@somethingwithultra7231It's hinted that Tim Drake was doing the same thing in the Titans.
I suspect that Tower of Babel might be partially responsible for the whole "Batman can defeat anyone with prep time" discource, which can fuel the hate towards the storyline
@@greyish7212This, plus the Dark Knight Returns story gave power to that mindset.
You completely missed the point Tower of Babel it's not meant to be celebration or condone Batman's contingency plans. Showcasing overly control freak and paraniod nature will eventually lead to the dissolution of team since there's no communication and a lack of trust. Even worse the plans ended being exploited from nefarious purposes.
Writers ran with this concept more than once, making Batman naive and not thoughtful in anyway.
People wonder how Frank Miller Batman ended up screen
This is the period I'm must interested in because just like you said nobody remembers or care about of these years in the Batman comics. I always wanted to know who Sasha was and the implications of Bruce Wayne Murderer in the continuity. I was really surprised how you compared the Dennis O' Neil situation and the Officer Down storyline as well as the writers feelings towards the new editorial changes. I feel so lucky of having found your channel and following you for all these years. You are THE Batman channel in RUclips as I always say.
Thank you Salazar for your hard work ❤️🦇.
Seconded.
Outside of red hood no one really talks about or cares for 00s Batman
@@MILDMONSTER1234 or Hush.
Ed Brubaker was my first Batman comic, OUR WORLDS AT WAR one shot. I wondered why a black man was Commissioner, what happened to Gordon. Honestly, despite Brubaker being responsible for my discovering Batman comics when I was a boy, I just didn't have nostalgic feelings for him.
But this video had served me to understand why Batman's comic fell apart despite having great writers like Devin Grayson and Greg Rucka.
Hey, I'm happy for people who discovered Batman in the 2000s and enjoyed it , but by 1997 I was completely DONE with his comics. Batman in the comics became unrecognizable to me, and personally I took it as a signal to maybe "grow up" and move on. I vividly remember just browzing over new issues at comic shops and Barnes & Nobles Bookstores and actually being disgusted with the sloppy cheap writing. By 2002 I was done with both DC and Marvel Comics, and was only buying small indie press and foreign books from Europe and Asia. On the bright side Indie publishing had literally taken over by 2000s and I had adult friends who NEVER read comics in the 90s who were now reading Saga, Love & Rockets, etc.
To be fair, Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) didn't even know Bruce Wayne = Batman until her first crossover issue (#24). And then she didn't even have time to process anything because she had to deal with a certain death duel with Lady Shiva in #25. Once that's all cleared up, she's the one that started the ball rolling. She's the key to it all ironically in Bruce finding the humanity lost because she's the reason he was targeted to begin with.
In all honesty, I love Batman: Murderer?/Fugitive because of the depth it gives EVERYONE in this story. Bruce, Sasha, Dick, Alfred, Babs, Cass, Tim, and Steph are all on point here. Great characterizations. It's a superior version of "Gotham War".
The grand problem is, sure the main Batman comics got "better", but then the opposite happened. The Bat Family comics lost their drive or got canceled due to inept leadership and editing. Look at Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Gotham Knights, and Birds of Prey (once Simone left).
Just problem after problem. Along with a hidden agenda after hidden agenda (aka Dick being slated for death or Cass being axed because some higher-ups wanted Babs back). Denny O'Neill was the glue and sadly though many praise it, "Batman: Hush" was the grand downfall of the Bat Family comics. It's a problem that still afflicts the Bat Fam today. I think the only two Bat Fam characters who recovered are Dick Grayson and Cassandra Cain. But that could change at a drop of the dime with another bad run ("Ric") or being pushed into limbo (or multiple pushes in Cass's case because higher-ups wanted Babs back as Batgirl).
This was such a fascinating video. Thanks for putting it together. I would love to hear more behind the scenes of DC Comics from the 90’s-2000’s.
Chuck Dixon has spoken a few times about how he wanted Wayne manor being rebuilt on one site and then mysteriously moved over the Batcave overnight being too much for Denny O'Neill. It shouldn't have been a problem when you already have villains like Ra's al Ghul, Clayface and Manbat, and Clark Kent and Lex Luthor had visited Gotham earlier in the storyline.
Spiderman also didn't recover in the 2000s after the events of the infamous Clone Saga. Although we were given the first movie and the Ultimate comics, four men came to destroy Spiderman: Joe Quesada, Michael Straczynski, Kevin Smith, and Mark Miller. They are the ones who created stories so abysmal that they ruined the Spiderman mythos like Evil That Men Do, Sins Past, Civil War, and of course, One More Day. The Achilles heel that destroyed Peter and MJ's marriage by making a deal with the devil himself to save Aunt May's life after being shot by one of the Kingpin's assassins.
My opinion....Hollywood destroyed DC and Marvel comics IP's in the 2000s. Mind you indie published books were having a golden age during this time like Dark Horse. I had friends who NEVER read comics in the 90s suddenly were reading Saga or Love & Rockets. But Marvel and DC became trash trying to capitalize on movies.
@@juniorjames7076 That explains why their stories seemed lackluster after the success of the Dark Knight trilogy and the MCU.
@@juniorjames7076 when the films stopped adapting stories and just took story titles, it was a wrap. The comics conformed to match the aesthetic and sensibilities of the various films and shows to create dreaded *corporate synergy*
Stackzynski run was so bad that made me drop Spider-man books for the first time.
JMS gets a pass from me. The first half of his run did a lot to move the character forward. Gave Peter a job that made sense for him, restored his marriage after they separated after MJ's fake death, made good use of Aunt May's stupid resurrection. While I wasnt a fan of him attempting to incorporate magic into Spidey's origin, I did appreciate all of the other magic related stories he put Spidey in. As for the second half of his run, well I chalk that up to editorial influence. Sins Past was a misstep for sure, but prior to that, JMS was doing solid work. Everything after Sins was clearly an attempt to move Spider-Man in a situation he got in for OMD, which JMS wanted no part in.
Also what was so bad about Kevin Smith and his The Evil Men Do story? 🤔
Murderer/Fugitive was great tho. Probably one of the very best Batman arcs ever made, if not the best.
It was the best arc to come out that period. It has its flaws, but it's still a pretty solid batman tale.
Tower of Babal makes perfect sense.
Taking down the league is a simple enough matter for a guy reputed for his intelligence. Let's be honest he's kinda holding back with not using any tech from the leagues Adversaries for this. And not having similar plans for his villains has to do with the fact he fights these guys on a bi-weekly basis, elaborate plans only work once or twice, eventually your opponent will adapt.
it's boring
I think that might just be a comic problem. Lot of the reason why some variants give Batman like a decade of hero time before the JL is because of that. He'd still not be as experienced against meta-humans & with containment plans. But as he has to face higher enemies in the league, he similarly starts upgrading in tech a bit & his standard rogues become a bit easier to manage. Although I do disagree with Salazar, and if anything he should be able to handle a ton of his villains as well.
The art of Detective Comics was definitely bold and different compared to the other titles, but I much preferred it to the awful art McDaniel was doing in the main Batman line. Gotham Knights was my favorite of the books, for the beautiful art and for the stories. But after dealing with the landscape of No Man's Land for a year, it was REALLY jarring to open the books to find a 6-month time jump and the whole city is rebuilt? Seriously? ALL of it?
That was more than a little unrealistic to me unless the JLA came to Gotham and helped out. Yeah, Bats threw Supes out early into the onset of the NML, but once the NML order was lifted and things were being rebuilt, is there any reason he wouldn't have come _back_ to help out? Or Green Lantern? I mean, what's the point of having these heroes exist in the same universe if they aren't going to help rebuild after disasters? Isn't that what they do?
It surprises me that Denny didn't want ANY DC superhero crossover in the Bat books, but I do agree with not bringing the entire JLA in to help rebuild the manor because that would have revealed who Bruce was. The fact that he kept his identity secret from the JLA and that he has these deep-seated trust issues about revealing his identity--as well as being a compulsive planner with pessimistic leanings regarding what can happen to the world if superheroes go nutty--set up the wonderful Tower of Babel storyline over in JLA, and the ultimate resolution of both Bruce AND Clark revealing their identities to the team was compelling reading.
I did see a panel somewhere of Alfred bulldozing the remains of the manor into the cavern to cover up the old cave since there was a deep chasm open underneath the house that took down a lot of the structure. A coffee table book I bought explains that Bruce had an old Scottish manor belonging to the MacDubh clan (I believe he is the last surviving member) shipped over to the states in sections and rebuilt on the old house foundations. But no one explains what the hell they do to make the proper foundations for it. I mean, yeah, he can buy off inspectors and whatever, but houses (and in this case, a freaking castle) NEED a foundation, and somehow he has to seal up that chasm. Ok, so what did he do, dig it back out again in order to restore the cave? It made no sense.
And yes, there was a concerted effort on O'Neill's part to get rid of all the "silly" trophies and props that had become part of the Batcave back in the 60s. O'Neill wanted to take him in a more serious direction and get away from the crazy props like the giant penny and the T-Rex, and he didn't think Batman would be the type of guy to save stuff like that. But there was such a clamor from fans that it was decided to ultimately add a trophy room to one of the levels of the new Batcave.
You can find cross sections of the new Batcave by searching 2000's Batcave pre-crisis, or check out the Cass Cain mainframe wiki casscain.fandom.com/wiki/2000%27s_Batcave_(Pre-Crisis)
Fantastic video! I never put much thought into why I stopped reading Batman when I did and thanks to this video i have my answer: Dennis O'Neil got fired. It it wasn't for Grant Morrison, I probably never would've picked up a Batman comic again.
Great to hear your thoughts on all this. This period was messy at points but I think it has some of the best Batman stories.
I don't hate Officer Down on its own, but the O'Neil connection you mentioned makes it a lot more interesting.
I think Murderer/Fugitive is enduring in large part because of its refutation of Bruce being nothing more than a mask, a viewpoint still held by droves and droves of Batman fans to this day. I think the mystery itself is engaging enough, though I do take issue with the degree to which Batman becomes detached from the case. I get that he might not feel motivated enough to clear his own name if he's come to think that he doesn't need to be Bruce Wayne, but the fact that he seemingly stops caring about solving Vesper's murder is just too much for me. And then you throw Sasha into the mix and it's just unfortunate. I still really enjoy the story though, Rucka's coda with Bruce and Sasha in the park is great. And you're right to point out Vesper's change in portrayal. She's good in both incarnations, though I miss her 90s personality. I am, I guess, glad that Vicki didn't get killed off instead because I like her, but Vesper dying sucks too.
Grayson on Gotham Knights and Rucka on Detective are some absolute highlights for this period for me. Just really great stuff all around in my eyes. And I appreciate the shout out to Orpheus Rising and The Hill at the end, both of those are really awesome too.
Also, I think a lot could be said on how Tower of Babel has negatively influenced both perceptions and portrayals of Batman in the years since.
33:39 That's Taskmaster, Luigi, you didn't make him
I think calling a two-tone colour scheme bizarre is exactly the kind of closed mindedness that turned vertigo into 'bat' label. Any experimentation with the medium of comics is immediately written off by the irritatingly loud and omnipresent batman fans, leaving us with the meaningless pulp that DC has been shitting out for two decades now
Was just wondering when you’d upload again. Good to see you, king
I’m glad someone has the same disdain for Hammas Batman run as I do. It’s the worst Batman/detective comics run from post crisis up until flashpoint. And I’ve read every one of them.
Why is it everytime I watch A comic vid I see you in the comments.😂
@@stephentheshywarrior2759 I guess we watch the same videos ?😂
Tower of Babel wasn’t presenting the idea that Batman being an edgy cold person is cool but rather criticizing Morrisons and others modern idea of who Batman is, it deconstructed Batman and blatantly tells you his behavior was immoral and gross. If you read ahead past that arc he apologizes for his behavior and admits he was wrong for it.
People misunderstand Tower of Babel the same way people misunderstand killing joke
I completely agree with your observations about the modern batman. he seems to have strayed so far from the old more grounded batman written by Denny O Neil. He always seems to be able to do anything and fight anyone these days just using his convenient plot armor. It feels like they've lost sight of who batman is supposed to be a grounded superhero with more grounded conflicts and villains.
Batman has never been the same since Denny's departure. I wonder if we'll ever see another editor like him again who manages to wrangle the bat books into top form the way he did.
I did love Scott McDaniel’s Nightwing! He and Chuck Dixon really developed BludHaven 🐳 and had a Killer monthly book!
03:06 Your criticism is they didn't explain why Batman changed his shirt?
Shawn Martinbrough's art being "polarizing" for that run is insane when it looks that good
Officer Down wasn't a Batman story, it was a Commissioner Gordon/Danny O'Neil story 🥲
You often see a lot of people bring up Tower of Babel as some big feat or triumph for Batman that he could totally beat anyone, but it's as you pointed out, one of Batman's lowest points in his career. Indeed, if Batman is so invested in creating formulaic plans to take down his own friends, why can't he do the same against his enemies in his own turf, whom only a few of have powers but nowhere near the level of the League?
But people aren't willing to entertain the idea that Batman could do wrong for whatever reason despite claiming him as "flawed and relatable". Though in my experience, the "flawed and relatable" is just referring to him having no superpowers and being grimdark.
"Superheroes get possessed and they have superpowers" And Batman doesn't? Because people seem to operate under the foregone conclusion that Batman isn't susceptible to brainwashing. If anything, his paranoia would highlight he should be the first to be taken out for willingly betraying the trust of his colleagues. Not to mention he has a lot of money, which obviously went into funding these plans. Being rich is in itself a superpower as well.
The Bat family had outside help. Hell, Bruce called on Aquaman to try and get the penny up.
The Batman comics from this time are the flip side of what DC was doing with Superman. While Batman was moving farther from his Silver Age roots for grim and "realistic" stories, the Superman went all in on the Silver Age: Krypto and Supergirl were back, General Zod was a big enemy, and Krypton was revealed to be exactly like how it was in the comics from the '60s with retro-future architecture and Flash Gordon tech. Strangely, a few years later Grant Morrison devoted his Batman run with Silver Age motifs while Superman got progressively darker and more violent in the name of "maturing" the character.
I hold Greg Rucka's and Ed Brubaker's time writing Batman comics up there with Denny O'Neil's and Steve Englehart's tenure.
Me worrying we're gonna run out of Salazar's videos
insane to put the cover of Batman Murderer to try and say this was a bad era for Batman
like c'mon dawg
When you comment before watching the video
@@kamekakarot He fundamentally misunderstands both Murderer and Fugative even after watching the video. He manages to miss the fact that because Bruce was isolating himself from others, he was also heavily sleep deprived. That's the reason he wasn't sure if he killed Vesper or not. He was so dissilusioned that he lost himself and with Bruce Wayne being a lost identity, he fully commits to the batman persona. The fall to becoming Azreal is purposeful and was used to reset Batman after turning into the fully serious, hyper control freak he was complaining about in the video before.
This is all very easy to realise while reading the story and the 2000s was honestly a very great time for Batman but it seems like he missed all of this oddly enough.
@@ShockWithoutFearThe problem is there never should have been a situation where Murderer and Fugitive happened. And it still not a good Batman comic
@@notthefbi7015 Why not? The natural growth of a Batman that is constantly obsessed with being ahead and planning everything is to be so obsessed with his work that he loses sight of what he's really doing this for.
There's a reason it's widely considered to be a fantastic story both in and out of comic spaces. This video is an outlier
I agree that crime noir music enhanced batman comics so much, whenever I read batman I just put the GTA 3 theme looping in the background
Early 2000’s was great. Don’t know what you’re talking about. Grant Morrison came out of this.
Sadly, most of my two longboxes of Batman comics are from the late 90s to early 2000s. They're basically worth their cover price, if that.
THAT FRAME AT 6:15. I read that comic as a kid and have been looking for it. It's the guy with the hammer, right? Is there a name? I've been looking for it for literal years
Found it. Batman vol.1 issue 578. Read this when I was like, eight and actually did find it pretty scary.
Gotham city really needs that gothic edge to bring out that surreal touch to batman
Was it? Because I feel like everything since Grant Morrison's 7 yr reign of damage was just that
Wait who thinks Tom King was the worst era of Batman? I love most of his batwriting.
man the contingency plans, the start of the whole "prep time batman" cliche which just ruins the character for me.
like i don't hate batman v superman scenarios where batman manages to win a hard fought battle utilysing every advantage ie the dark knight returns, but him just having these plans for everybody just ready to go and some evil batmen being so effective they take down the justice legue singlehandedly is just way too much.
like even ignoring the abilities which range from creating anything from your mind, full intagability, faster than light speed and all the members having godlike strength and durability... the whole point of a team is to cover eachothers weaknesses, even if this was 60's cartoon justice legue where aquaman literally just has his fish telepathy and flash can't time travel. it still goes against the reason why you'd make them a team, they are simply stronger than the sum of their parts so making one member just flat out stronger moreso makes them a boss than a team member, it unbalances the team, like why have superman when wonder woman is just as strong without the weaknesses? why have flash if superman is also ultra fast? kinda goes into why i think the justice legue is a bad superhero team in itself but having one member be able to solo them is just an insane writing decision.
Tbf, this era had the JL animated series and Batman Begins. So, it wasn't all bad .
Great video! This era of Batman is one that I missed out on because I wasn't buying new comics very often. When I did buy comics it was mostly back issues of Batman and Detective Comics from the Knightfall era, or back issues of DC's Star Trek comic book series from the '80s and early '90s. And collected editions were just starting to be taken more seriously as a way to get storylines to people who weren't able to buy comics on a weekly or monthly basis. The same thing was happening with TV shows at the time too with the advent of DVDs and the realization that a season of a TV show could be released in a multi-disc DVD box set after the season had finished airing on whatever network it was on. The same thing kinda happened with comics around this time too. You also have to factor in the changes that society was undergoing with 9/11 happening in 2001, and the constant threat we were under from terrorist organizations at that same time. So I think that had something to do with the change in the Batman comics, and comics in general, around that time. Police Procedurals had also become a phenomenon at this time. Alot had changed and those changes were reflected in the comics that were coming out.
love your videos dude, just read the fugitive arc and was looking for a video talking about this era of batman in depth. i quite like this era of batman, but mostly because I love Scott McDaniel's art
32:00 does anyone know this comic here. I love azreal and nightwing and would love to read this story line.
Gotham Knights #14
Appreciate the captions, I'm very hard of hearing and it's difficult to make out words at the best of times.
I'm actually a pretty big fan of a lot of the stories you covered in this video.
The 2000s era of Comics were mostly just edgy edgebait where all the heroes had to have something terrible happen to them, including grape, lots of grape, Batman getting graped, and a few others getting graped... I fucking hate most of the 2000s comics...
Also the creation of the ultimate universe for marvel which hasn’t really aged well lol
@@MILDMONSTER1234 I think that a lot of the Ultimate Universe shows the problems with the 2000s era of comics... Like Quicksilver and Wanda getting into an incestuous relationship...
Thank you for the music playlist Mr.Knight I will thoroughly enjoy it right after I'm done with this video :)
I started the video dreading that someone with a clear preference and nostalgia for the 90s would rip apart the more sophisticated 00s. And while I did get some of that, I genuinely appreciate the look at the behind the scenes regarding Denny and the metaphor of Officer Down, which I hadn't noticed before. Now, some criticism of your criticism. The reconstruction of the cave and the lost trophies wasn't ignored. In the lead up to Murderer, there's an issue where Batman calls Aquaman to retrieve the giant penny from a lake in the cave. You criticise Officer Down because Batman doesn't do anything, claiming it shows poor execution. But what you're describing is actually the concept of the story, and you don't say anything about its actual execution, the detective work carried by the bat-family, the art, coloring, prose, etc. You say Batman doing the job "would have been an opportunity for character growth" but the entire point of the story was to put Bruce in a bad place where he'd slowly alienate anyone around him until they payoff of Fugitive. It was a long arc, meticulously planned. This criticism is like saying Batman is too smart to tire himself out fighting in Knightfall, and that it would show character growth if he took a break and relied on others more. In both stories the point is to take the character down so that he can raise back up again. The only difference is there's less action in Officer Down, which I think is the heart of your problem. It kind of goes with the territory of a 90's focused channel, but it's disappointing. Claiming that "it might be one of the worst Batman stories ever made" is too rich when you praise Legacy, a story that is little more than mashing action figures together with zero substance. It's also a bit grating that in all of your videos you present your opinion and then add something along the lines of "the general consensus is that the story is bad" like that's even quantifiable. I always wondered, where do you get these general consensus from? I'll grant that you acknowledge Rucka and Grayson being great, and I completely agree on Zeiss being the worst. But too often in this video you seem to quantify whether a story is good depending on whether Batman is happy and triumpanth, and have too little to say about things like the script, the dialogue, the technical execution.
Thanks for the feedback. Allow me to explain a couple of points raised here:
I base my statements on people's reviews of the stories posted on multiple sites including goodreads, kindle/comixology, reddit, etc. These online resources are great to quantify public perception about different stories.
I've never praised Legacy. I just made a whole dedicated video to if because it was far more enjoyable, if not necessarily a good story.
I don't believe for a split second that these stories were meticulously planned. Chuck Dixon has said multiple times on his videos, he had no idea what kind of stories the new editor wanted from him or any of his writers. They were all just very competent in making stuff up as they went along.
The story about the penny was a complete afterthought and still doesn't explain how the cave was rebuilt. Just what happened to the trophies.
I can't spend too much time dissecting the script, dialogue and execution of each story presented here because the video would be a couple hours too long. I do my best to give a good idea of the story, presenting the facts as I see them and adding personal commentary with my own thoughts and opinions of the material.
And it seems the majority of people do enjoy these videos as they are generally well received, according to my statistics.
Again, thanks for the feedback. Constructive criticism is always appreciated!
@@SalazarKnightI can't wait for you to talk about the dark knight trilogy.
@@SalazarKnight I grew up with the dark knight trilogy.
@@SalazarKnight The Dark Knight trilogy is awesome.
Does anyone know - where is the best place to read Rucka’s run on Batman Detective Comics?
Rucka's entire run in Detective is collected in 2 volumes called "Batman: New Gotham".
Ah brilliant, thank you so much and awesome video btw 😄
David Caine otherwise known as Nick Fury.
Absolutely love these videos. I binge them all the time. Hope when you catch up to current Batman, that you cover either Dick Grayson, Superman, or The Flash
I have a much bigger complaint about the spikes on Batman's gloves disappearing one month after the big rollout of Batman's new costume without explanation than the disappearance of the New Look oval without explanation. There were readers who called for its removal 20 years before, so my reaction was "Finally." I thought the Roger Robinson Gotham Knights issues were consistently good, including the story with the Australian and the issue with the roaches. I had a lot more interest in Bruce Wayne: Murderer and Bruce Wayne: Fugitive than the crossover events during the Denny O'Neil era, like No Man's Land and Knightfall.
A big problem with "Bruce Wayne: Murderer" is how Bruce had no agency except when he had to be hyper-competent. He's discovered with the body right away with no chance to either hide the body or report it (Imagine if he tried moving the body someplace it would be discovered so as not to incriminate him). His secret identity is at risk only somehow he's careful enough to leave no evidence in the manor connecting him to Batman and his latest partner completely refuses to talk. It sets up an appearance of the status quo being radically altered except it goes back to relatively normal by the end.
Salazar, i have a few questions.
First of all, do u have a pet?
Second of all, have u ever written a fan fiction?
And last of all, did u actually read all of the comics in the original golden/silver/bronze age series to check if any of them had something important in it? Cuz if u did, you deserve the medal of honor.
I can tell you from what he’s said in the videos and as someone who has read every Batman book from the 90s up until recently, no he hasn’t because he’s said some things that doesn’t line up like saying the mid 90s Batman comics were bad. I think he’s read some comics and wiki pages and probably videos but actually reading every single issue? No.
I read most of the Golden Age as a kid, I thought I was reading 4 color snuff at the time. It's actually really boring, and only a helicopter parent would stop their kid from reading all this.
I feel both Batman and the Batfamily peaked in this era. However, It all goes downhill with Hush and hits the nadir with the infamous War Games
WHAT?!?!?!?! The early 2000s was a GREAT time for Batman! You can't be serious. The New 52 was the historic low for Batman. Started strong with Court of Owls and then almost *immediately* devolved to garbage. Sure -- there were some mediocre and even bad stories in the early 2000s, but there was also plenty to enjoy. This is peak Batman to me -- right before Grant Morrison and New 52 changed everything (for better and for worse). Sure -- Officer Down was lame. But what about Turning Points?!?!?!?! One of the best Batman/Gordon titles ever released. Gotham Knights was fantastic, one of the best Batman series, with so many deep emotional moments and giving so many of the supporting characters a chance to really shine. Granted -- the early 2000s also gave us Hush -- a really terrible comic everybody pretends is good because it's by Jeph Loeb and Jim Lee. But it also gave us The man Who Laughs! Think of all the downright PHENOMENAL writing done by Greg Rucka and Paul Dini during this period. Think of all the great content about Cassandra and Stephanie. I feel like you read a handful of books you weren't crazy about and made a reactionary video with a bold claim to get people to click on it. Couldn't be more off base.
Completely agree, and I'm glad we're not alone since I see a lot of people mentioning this too on Twitter. No hate to the guy that created the video and he's entitled to his own opinion but it feels disingenuous the way he leaves out critcal parts that show the stories work very well. It's like a spread of misinformation about books that are genuinely great (Murderer and Fugitive)
Hush is one of those comics that newer fans love but a lot of older fans constantly mock. I think the 00s gave us a lot of both good and bad, we got red hood and Cassandra Cain but also got all star and odyssey.
@@MILDMONSTER1234 Definitely the best way of putting it.
Snyder’s run as a whole was the diamond in the rough for the New 52. I think it’s one of the best Batman runs.
"Officer down" was the last of the batman comics published in Mexico by "Vid editorial", the publisher that carried both DC and Marvel in Mexico for about 30 years, i found it mediocre.... but now? now i know, now i think its awesome. Thanks dude!
I legit had no idea about all of these new/reused additions to the storylines of the new millennia. These videos are really passionate and well-put together.
I can't wait for the next video for the dark knight trilogy: first two installments (batman begins and the dark knight) for the 2000s since I was born in march of 1999.
I can't wait for that video too. Those movies really inspired me
@@ItsMe_Andre there are some of my favorite movies
@@ItsMe_Andre How old were you when the trilogy came out?
@@ItsMe_Andre My favorite trilogy of all time and Bale is my batman.
great video and amazing playlist!
Incredible work!! and In the end you really struck a chord, I bought DK2 and will always regret it
Adam West deserves your respect and so does his work.
Gotham was an average city for much of its comic book history, it was based on New York. It didn't become an art deco nightmare until Anton Furst's concept art for Burton's 89 film changed it forever. It became the de facto style and carried over into the comics and the Animated Series, until the early 2000's.
Can't wait for you to get to the grant morrison batman and paul dini detective comics runs
Excited for this one! batman books from this era were some of the first batman books that I collected
Every era can be a mixed bag but there were some fantastic Batman stories in this era. The Matches Malone story was great! Bruce Wayne wanted was also a good one. Brubaker and Vaughn told some top notch Batman stories in my opinion
Gods, the art of Tower of Babel is... horrendous. Like what I'd expect from some fan content on Deviant Art rather than a professional comic artist.
According to Chuck Dixon, Denny O'Neil wanted HIM to replace him as group editor but he declined
Just discovered this channel via Owen Likes Comics. Really enjoyed this video even though I feel it’s a bit harsh on the Rucka and Brubaker issues. I thought they were great.
Will definitely check out your other videos!
You've really become the new definitive lore master of comic book Batman; also love that you included Azrael's Gotham Knights and Bruce Wayne: Fugitive storyline, it's nice to remember is few glory moments in the 2000s before they made him go completely insane afterwards for basically no reason
Were you even reading the Bat books in the late 90s early 2k's? There were some epic stories in those years. I collected all of the Bat family titles from '97 through '06. Great stuff.
No. Tom King and the current storylines are way worse because DC had editors in the early 2000s. There also hadn't been 6 attempts to reboot the entire DC Comics line in the last 10 years
tom king is the WORST
two of my favorite comic storylines is Batman: Hush and Under the Hood. They came out in 2002 and 2005, and were both pretty mature. They were both very solid. I believe they were both part of Detective Comics rather than the main Batman story you mentioned. It was weird how tonally Detective comics and Batman switched places.
As someone who enjoyed Rucka's run on Detective Comics, before seeing this video, I had no idea about what happened behind the scenes.
I didnt care for No Mans Land, but i actually liked Bruce Wayne:Fugitive .
Sal…you did it again! Awesome video!