@@chungang7037 bro I have no issues with the graphs. I have harman tuned, if based, and completely neutral headphones. I just don't get enough "me time " you know? It's like that meme; I desperately need some sleep, but when I sleep tomorrow will come and I'll lose that little time period where I don't have to focus on my responsibilities.
Good takes! I really like the breakdown of different possible meanings of "detail" and their explanations, I agree with a lot. I hadn't considered your final suggestion that tasteful coloration of tuning can be pivotal in creating a sense of detail, but your description does remind me of processing photographs and being intentional with contrast to draw attention to details. Though a big difference here is that processing photos like that typically requires manual response to the source material -- whereas a headphone tuning acts more like a film simulation that operates the same regardless of the photo it's applied to. The effects can be similar still.
In photography, if you wanna touch on detail retrieval you have to talk about the camera sensor and its characteristics at some point. Similarly, in IEMs you have to talk about the drivers. Yet no audio reviewer seems to be doing that; possibly because of the lack of knowledge on the tech aspect of audio. Interesting takes in the video sure, but I think they only partially cover the topic.
@SuperReview It seems like my previous comment wasn't posted, probably something wrong with my phone. But I do agree with you and with @codyghind. I think precog barely scratched the surface in this video. What I'd love would be a drawn out video (well structered podcast?) about subcjective views on this topic by the headphones show crew and additional hifi youtubers, like yourself or Sajid for example, not necessarily limited to IEMs
@@codyghind “Quality of the drivers” is a meme, no one talking about driver quality has any idea what variables contribute to a good quality driver vs a bad quality driver, we only know what we can hear and the same drivers in one headphone can sound worse in another. Unless you’re in manufacturing, I think “driver quality” discourse is a waste of time.
@@SuperReview Not sure about the meme characterization, but what you described is true and the status quo. This doesn't mean of course it couldn't change in the future, or we shouldn't even mention it as a variable (including other variables like acoustic design). Otherwise, what we're left with is the reviewer's impressions and a graph; and I'm not sure if this is even useful, since you know, "your concha is different to my concha".
Psychology studies not only human behaviour, but also cognitive processes like Attention, Perception and memory. Psychoacoustics is studied in the perception field. So yeah, we do investigate how sound is perceived by the human brain.
This is possibly @precogvision's best video to date. The amount of science backed evidence along with clear and understandable explanations is an absolute flex of brain power from someone who has very clearly put a lot of time, effort, and dedication into the field. Gonna need some more of this from you, Theo.
YES! I've come to a similar conclusion! Detail, speed, soundstage, all that is just frequency response (I can hear 80% of the Head-Fi forums screaming in rage). Since this realisation, I've stopped lusting after kilobuck IEMs. Now, I just look for cheap, comfortable and well built IEMs that have a good FR response. Now I spend my money on ear tips to ensure max comfort!
Great simple explanation about cutting off frequencies aboves 10khz causes loss in details, there is a sumilar effect on soundstage loss when you cut off bass frequencies below 60hz
Open a photo in an editor and dial up the “sharpness” slider. You’re shifting the frequency response of the photo and emphasizing the high spatial frequencies. Your perception is of “more detail” as it’s “sharper”. The detail was always there. You just emphasized a component of it.
I'll definitely be using this is my videos in future man. I did had similar ideas as yours but nothing is a succinct and straightforward as your comment.
Thanks all - and, yes, it certainly will slide over to the “unnatural”. Precog talks about that here too. As the boost goes from a small bit, leading to the perception of detail to something more, it sounds like a shift in tone.
6:20 You nailed it. Excessively bass is the culprit for diminishing the perception of details. That is why I prefer a neutral signature. However, in my decent time in this hobby, I have observed our ears get adjusted to the excessive bass after a while and then one tends to hear the details better in a long listening session.
I agree with a lot here. One thing I see popping up in the comments here and around this topic often is the misconception that the upper end of the FR is where detail lives and dies. Also, I think left-to-right level matching plays a huge role in the perception of detail, sound stage and coherence generally--maybe as much as FR overall.
I am starting to see a trend of some sorts when it comes to reviewing iems on this channel, it's like there is a much greater emphasis on the frequency response of iems rather than the subjective qualities, which I'm honestly all for
honestly, detail = coloration makes so much sense. if you're at the mixing board and you want additional focus on a specific track, you simply boost its volume. that's it. that's your detail - the coloration in the iem just happened to match that individual track. i mean i still do think that not all drivers are created equal, of course. but this, just makes sense
In sports psych, I was taught that we don’t “lose focus” but simply our attention is shifted elsewhere. Appreciate the video talking about that as I don’t see many (as I recall) who do. Regarding constantly changing HRTF, variable frequency hyperacusis is a bitch 😂😭
Drivers are not weightless that travel at the speed of light. For me, the time it takes a driver to start and stop moving and follow an input signal is what accounts for resolution. Detail retrieval is much more frequency response based, because if a high-resolution driver is rolled off above 10Khz, you will not hear certain sounds in the music loud enough, even though those quiet sounds are being reproduced at a high resolution. The highest resolution headphones I've heard are planars like the LCD-X, Arya, Susvara, electrostats like STAXX, Warick, and a couple dynamics like the HD 800, Utopia, and to a less degree Clear, K712 Pro, and TH900.
Details also depending who we are talking to, like from someone that use mass market earphones and pass them some hobbyist IEM and they will say wow lots of details but matter of fact it’s just trebles and high boosted
Precog, thank you, excellent presentation, very informative, I very much appreciate your effort to present information that is at times difficult for me in such a clear way. Thank you again.
Yes. Audio is super subjective and some people hear better or different. But some audiophiles think that their hearing is holier than thou and what they hear is the “standard”
@@Non-y3s are you lost? None of these deceptions are controversial or need super ears to hear them. Everyone hears it, but the deception of what you heard is subjective.
Those are a part of "perceived detail " For example boost the 3 to 4 kHz and vocals will pop out from the rest and iem will sound more spacious. Or boost the 10k abd you'll hear more detail in high hats etc.
They’re not mistaking anything because they are indeed related. Instrument separation is in the source material aka music. The less details are masked by the IEM/headphone, the less information you lose, including the positional cues within the soundstage. These can be correlated to measurements of frequency response plus waterfall plots (resonances mask details).
Well said Theo, that’s coming from my personal stance of being a comparative rationalist in audio/iem’s. I’ve been in the hobby of personal audio since saving up for a Walkman DC2 as a teenager in the 80’s and I sometimes despair at the talk of reviewers (online and on forums) comparing the sound of one iem to another that they previously listened to, paragraph after paragraph of flowery prose that very often contradicts itself time and time again, and don’t get me started on silver vs copper cables. Sit me down with two iem’s of relatively similar response and I’d be hard pressed to distinguish much, if anything different between them. Sony XBA - N3’s and Symphonium Meteors for the win btw, ;)
@@jefryions5657you’re a bit of a cheeky twat, . At no point did I mention headphones yet you bring these into the discussion, perhaps pay attention to what people write before jumping on your keyboard like an excited terrier. I’ts true I’m 50 and can only hear to 15khz but why the attack mode and insults?
@@jefryions5657 It shouldn't always come down to actual hearing acuity or whatever. Attentiveness matters A LOT. It's the same for all senses. For example, I have trouble discerning some colours (dunno how's that condition called in English, but it's not colorblindness proper) and dwindling eyesight, yet I'm more "sensitive" to hue and tone differences than most people simply due to the fact that I pay more attention to such things, oftentimes involuntarily as well (OCD). I tend to easily perceive the slightest changes in FR when it comes to audio, but only when there's not much time between assessments and no refitting of IEMs/headphones (EQ, digital reconstruction filters etc).
Detail as a term is currently hopeless since almost any change to fr can cause a user to call it more detail. Mist of the time it's also "detailed compared to my old headphone" and mainly translates as "better" in general. Detail could and should refer to the lack of or matching coloration in the sound so that you feel you hear more music than headphone. That said current practical accuracy of EQ's still leave major difference between headphones especially. A 7506 sounds grainy (to me at least) while LCD-5 sounds uniquely detailed.
I've started going through my IEMS and modding them by ear. No measurements. I love data so that part kills me but I love how amazing I'm getting my budget and ultra budget sets to sound. I've yet to hear a really pricey IEM, until then, I'm not convinced they will sound much better than what I've tuned myself. I do look for gems and good drivers but there is no lack of those these days in budget land. Looks to me like more expensive IEMS have put the attention to detail with filters and foams which give should give you a better plug and play exoerienxe. Where as budget sets are more of a one size fits, YMMV.
Its a good topic , I just started to mention my "Treble Sensitive" after buying the Beyerdynamics. At first it was the pure shrill Sound that pierced my Eears but after Eq the Treble a bit down and the lower part a bit higher it felt comfortable. The same applies for my Iem list , I just tried the Shanling UA3 as my first Amp/Dac and thought about how shouty some Iems are but after switching the Dac/Amp it was all gone. Ears are weird sometimes. And I noticed over the Years that I can hear more Frequency than my Family or Friends. Needed to swap my Monitor & Case because some components are to loud in the High Frequencys at least for me. I would love to try more Iem´s to experience more of these unique things.
I find treble extension very important on multidriver IEMs. You don't implement EST drivers which roll off too quickly. They're just too expensive to use without utilizing their whole potential. For example Shuoer EJ07m got 4 ESTs for treble but has way too much treble roll-off. Imho it's like driving with tightened handbrake 😌
@@dirty_dan75158 I know that they're one of the best regarding proper treble extension. I have Monarch Mk3 and I'm also very satisfied with its treble.
Part of this video / theory, makes me wonder how much X order harmonics influence other frequencies or something of that nature. Like a more granular/detail look at auditory masking. Is it just the amplitude of the timbre shift or is there spillover into other frequencies perceptually? In the example of the cymbal, there were frequencies below the "bulk" of the sound also, so larger amplitude bass could impact the perception of cymbals hits same as treble frequencies. When doing measurements would doing a sweep with complex tones rather than pure tones provide a more objective realistic to ear response?
One of the things rarely discussed is that what sounds “harsh” to our ears really has more to do with resonances in the frequency response. Sudden changes come off as harsh to the ear, so having a smooth chart is important to help avoid that, as well as having the proper slope as direct energy up top comes off as too bright to us. A smooth gentle slightly downward slope should sound the best to us. The other factor is where these changes occur as some audio bands really aren’t as important because they contain less “essential” content.
4:51 Strange, I think people who have a hearing loss above 10khz prefer the iem with extension or exaggeration in the higher frequencies. A friend who is a retired chopper pilot, without exception, prefers iems or headphones which have exaggerated air frequencies.
@@En_Joshi-Godrez I say largely inaudible beacuse it will always be audible, but to an incredibly miniscule extent which is unlikely to be caught by human perception.
Hey Theo, I really want you to try the Fir Audio Radon 6 and hear your take on the IEM before it’s sold out completely. I think it’s a contender for the best bass response maybe even besting the IE900. It has to be the kinetic bass technology with a bone conduction effect of displaying the bass but I’m not qualified to say otherwise. It’s an interesting tech reminiscent of the bone conduction drivers inside the MEST but instead is more forward acoustically. Could be revolutionary but not many big reviewers have got their hands on it. Thanks!
One thing I noticed when listening to very loud music for a couple of hours my hearing get's blocked and I feel that I have to pump up the volume more in which when I'm walking outside people look at me to turn it down, also I've noticed sometime my hearing is more sensitive like I can hear more detail and think WOW this IEM/Headphone/Speaker sounds amazing and other times with the same type of audio equipment think this sounds awful, so for me just as recently I stopped worrying about detail, resolution, imaging, soundstage and so on because our hearing is untrustworthy because that a was topic was driving me crazy.
@@juanblanco7898 Yes definitely, I've noticed at times my hearing is sometimes better than others, like sometimes in the same listening session with the same audio equipment my ears become blocked and my perception of the clarity and , resolution & detail of the music sounds muddy after a while, but then when I listen to music later on in the day and give my ears a couple of hours to settle down and rest my hearing goes back to normal and I can hear the music with clarity and detail but that never lasts too long and then I keep pumping up the volume which isn't good for my hearing.
@@robertobuatti7226 I know it's hard to do, but you should do your best to avoid turning the volume up in such cases. Instead every time you feel the need to do so, you should give your ears a break, even if for a couple of minutes. Best to have all your music normalized, since it may have differing digital levels and you may not know whether it's just that the actual musical track is quiter or the auditory fatigue has settled in. It's best to avoid or be really careful when listening to music when you're sick or drunk, for example, because your hearing might get muffled, which will incentivise you to turn the volume up in order to compensate. If the fatigue always comes quick, even when you're being careful with volume, most likely the issue is with the FR of your -phones. Many, if not the most IEMs and headphones will produce sound that's overly sharp/bright/gritty (even if it might not necessarily be readily apparent to the untrained ear) due to peaks or simply incorrect overall tonal balance (treble biased). Though you can get fatigue from bass as well, but that usually takes a lot. It's paramount to get the smoothest head-/earphones possible. And then there's in-ear length mode resonances, but that's a whole different story that's far harder to tackle, if at all possible.
@@juanblanco7898 Oh thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it, yes I need to get smooth IEMS and headphones because I do get a bit of listening fatigue after a while, which is why I turn up the volume because of the sharpness of the FR my ears gets blocked and then music starts to sound muffled which at first the extra sharpness with the music to my ear gives me a perception of clarity, resolution and detail but that doesn't last long. I wonder if you can get apps that measure db on how loud you listen to music, that would be very helpful for me not blowing out my hearing.
@@robertobuatti7226 As far as I'm aware therefore no reliable way know the actual SPL you're listening at. I would LOVE to have such a tool. Last time I checked was probably two years ago, so maybe there's something now, but honestly I doubt it. I kind of already screwed up my hearing so I don't listen to music much anymore. Maybe with TWS you can get close to what you want, at least potentially. There was also a feature in the FiiO Control app for BTR5 (I'm willing to bet it's the same with BTR7 and BTR15) which calculated the expected volume level based off the specs of BTR5 itself and specs of your headphones. Don't know how accurate it is, though, and there's still no way to account for different track mastering levels (you can overcome this, I believe, but that may require you to learn quite a few things) .
Imo I related detail to dynamic range, the difference of the quietest sound to the loudest ones, and the capability of the iem or headphones to have as wide as possible dynamic range. I thought that detail was lost in the compression of dynamic range. Like in photography as an exemple.
Hi Theo ! U named SUBTONIC STORM as"one of most detailed iem"-but is over expensive! Can u name it-"acording to your hearing" -very detailed iem around 1000$ ? Is there any very detailed iem around 500$-or even around 100$ that you can name it ? Biggest thanx in advance for your answers !!!!!
1:43 not all ppl listen to 20khz either way. Even kids can struggle to listen to 20khz. I dont think we need that higher bands to listen to a good treble either way. And there is not a lot of music info in there is mostly the ambience the air of the headphones.
To me, "detail" is just the absence of distortion. Which is why i like the word "resolution", a low-resolution IEM sounds like a low-resolution image looks (grainy?). I'm a guitarist, so i like to test this by listening to specific metal tracks. Electric guitars often sound... mushy through IEMs (or headphones). Many IEMs also distort in busy tracks (e.g. "The Airbuster" theme from FF7). I guess some of that might be attributable to frequency response, but some IEMs just distort when you push them, especially in the lower price range.
Why we just dont make a flat frequency iem? So we can hear everything. Just compensate hrtf. And that hrtf, we need to create self sine sweep to fit everyone's ear
I feel like the detail discussion is missing one factor - that detail _might_ be measurable, we just can't with our current tech/understanding, especially because I find it hard to see why a research company would invest into something only a handful of people would be passionate about. Detail certainly isn't as subjective as other aspects (e.g. imaging), as anyone would be able to hear extremely bad detail, accounting for all other aspects, and I'd imagine non-audiophiles could still hear good detail, even if they're not actively trying to spot it. Even intuitively, different drivers are gonna produce different sound waves, which our ears are more than capable of picking up on. Things like attack/decay, drivers continuing to move after a signal stops, reverberation, etc. aren't currently measured, but would likely play a role in determining detail retrieval, right?
Lets go to extremes here. If we compare similarly tuned headphones, but first one costs 20 bucks and second 2000, then there well definitely more details in the latter, even though they are both v-shaped. So, i presume that difference is in the driver that is lighter and able to vibrate faster with better control over when it stops and starts vibrating on a micro level. So, i reckon that mostly detail depends on how fast and controlled the driver is.
@@kajetan9550 it is still in the frequency response. however, we don't have a good enough way to tell from the fr whether something has good detail or not. what we have are just crude heuristics, which will fail sometimes. but that doesn't mean that such information isn't contained in the frequency response. we just don't have a reliable way of interpreting the response into subjective perception of detail yet.
You are really discrediting your own $1100 iem in this video. If FR is all that mattered (which isnt true, go listen to a stax 007 or LCD 4), then why didnt you design a iem with your preferred FR for $150 or less? The tuning you selected is perfectly possible from cheaper drivers. No excuse there.
It got cut out of this video, but I DO believe there is a correlation between 1) more expensive IEMs and 2) more detailed IEMs. It’s primarily based on more expensive IEMs having access to more drivers (which afford greater tuning granularity) and better tuning techniques. In this vein, it’s not possible to achieve Mirai’s tuning with cheaper drivers or conventional tuning techniques. I don’t understand where the assumption that it could be done for under $150 came from - and if this is true, I’d love to be pointed to an example that measures identically to the Mirai ;) FWIW, I have heard both the Stax 007 and LCD4 and dozens of other headphones most would consider detailed. I would gently suggest not getting wrapped up in this whole tuning vs technicalities debate. It’s the subjective experience that matters most, to you, whether it all stems from FR or a variety of other factors 🙂
Exactly. The 007 and lcd 4 are both very dark and not a detailed oriented signiture by any definition, yet they are the exact opposite. Driver quality matters regardless of FR. Almost all audezes are a testament to that.
the bad new is what people don't know how that should sound. and manufacturer gives them awfully made IEMs and saying 'it's s Gem'! and their untrained ears starts learning with this sound. when audio engeniers can say - all this IEMs overcolored and you should listen all this details. and I confirming this cos' I worked with mixes on studio monitors - they didn't produce this awfully sound signatures where highs drops on you like w tropical rain. and after this I hearing about 'bad mixes'. in the era where everyone can afford usb interface for sound production. change my mind audiophiles.
I sometimes imagine Audiophiles losing sleep at night, thinking "Another day, another bit of lost detail [that I'll never hear again!]"
I feel like this about my lifetime :D
@@mehmetgurdal Trick is forgetting the gear and graphs and enjoying music in the moment. Easier said than done though~
@@chungang7037 bro I have no issues with the graphs. I have harman tuned, if based, and completely neutral headphones.
I just don't get enough "me time " you know?
It's like that meme; I desperately need some sleep, but when I sleep tomorrow will come and I'll lose that little time period where I don't have to focus on my responsibilities.
@@mehmetgurdal I feel ya, we need to enjoy what time we can~
Good takes! I really like the breakdown of different possible meanings of "detail" and their explanations, I agree with a lot. I hadn't considered your final suggestion that tasteful coloration of tuning can be pivotal in creating a sense of detail, but your description does remind me of processing photographs and being intentional with contrast to draw attention to details. Though a big difference here is that processing photos like that typically requires manual response to the source material -- whereas a headphone tuning acts more like a film simulation that operates the same regardless of the photo it's applied to. The effects can be similar still.
In photography, if you wanna touch on detail retrieval you have to talk about the camera sensor and its characteristics at some point.
Similarly, in IEMs you have to talk about the drivers. Yet no audio reviewer seems to be doing that; possibly because of the lack of knowledge on the tech aspect of audio.
Interesting takes in the video sure, but I think they only partially cover the topic.
@SuperReview It seems like my previous comment wasn't posted, probably something wrong with my phone. But I do agree with you and with @codyghind. I think precog barely scratched the surface in this video. What I'd love would be a drawn out video (well structered podcast?) about subcjective views on this topic by the headphones show crew and additional hifi youtubers, like yourself or Sajid for example, not necessarily limited to IEMs
@@codyghind “Quality of the drivers” is a meme, no one talking about driver quality has any idea what variables contribute to a good quality driver vs a bad quality driver, we only know what we can hear and the same drivers in one headphone can sound worse in another. Unless you’re in manufacturing, I think “driver quality” discourse is a waste of time.
@@SuperReview Not sure about the meme characterization, but what you described is true and the status quo.
This doesn't mean of course it couldn't change in the future, or we shouldn't even mention it as a variable (including other variables like acoustic design).
Otherwise, what we're left with is the reviewer's impressions and a graph; and I'm not sure if this is even useful, since you know, "your concha is different to my concha".
As a psychologist, I appreciate how true to psychoacoustics and perceptionism your information is. Very objective in general.
Psychology studies not only human behaviour, but also cognitive processes like Attention, Perception and memory. Psychoacoustics is studied in the perception field. So yeah, we do investigate how sound is perceived by the human brain.
@@yin-fire3263 Shush. That guy clearly knows better.
This is possibly @precogvision's best video to date. The amount of science backed evidence along with clear and understandable explanations is an absolute flex of brain power from someone who has very clearly put a lot of time, effort, and dedication into the field. Gonna need some more of this from you, Theo.
YES! I've come to a similar conclusion! Detail, speed, soundstage, all that is just frequency response (I can hear 80% of the Head-Fi forums screaming in rage). Since this realisation, I've stopped lusting after kilobuck IEMs. Now, I just look for cheap, comfortable and well built IEMs that have a good FR response. Now I spend my money on ear tips to ensure max comfort!
For all audio gear, go listen to it for yourself. Excellent point! Learned a few new things today, thank you.
Great simple explanation about cutting off frequencies aboves 10khz causes loss in details, there is a sumilar effect on soundstage loss when you cut off bass frequencies below 60hz
Open a photo in an editor and dial up the “sharpness” slider. You’re shifting the frequency response of the photo and emphasizing the high spatial frequencies. Your perception is of “more detail” as it’s “sharper”. The detail was always there. You just emphasized a component of it.
Spot on comparison👌🏻
Yes, and sometimes is a bit unrealistic or unnatural
I'll definitely be using this is my videos in future man.
I did had similar ideas as yours but nothing is a succinct and straightforward as your comment.
Thanks all - and, yes, it certainly will slide over to the “unnatural”. Precog talks about that here too. As the boost goes from a small bit, leading to the perception of detail to something more, it sounds like a shift in tone.
Wow. As someone who has previously been a "detail is seperate from FR" person this kind of blew my mind
6:20 You nailed it. Excessively bass is the culprit for diminishing the perception of details. That is why I prefer a neutral signature. However, in my decent time in this hobby, I have observed our ears get adjusted to the excessive bass after a while and then one tends to hear the details better in a long listening session.
I agree with a lot here. One thing I see popping up in the comments here and around this topic often is the misconception that the upper end of the FR is where detail lives and dies. Also, I think left-to-right level matching plays a huge role in the perception of detail, sound stage and coherence generally--maybe as much as FR overall.
Excellent honest take. Thanks Precog!😎
I am starting to see a trend of some sorts when it comes to reviewing iems on this channel, it's like there is a much greater emphasis on the frequency response of iems rather than the subjective qualities, which I'm honestly all for
honestly, detail = coloration makes so much sense. if you're at the mixing board and you want additional focus on a specific track, you simply boost its volume. that's it. that's your detail - the coloration in the iem just happened to match that individual track.
i mean i still do think that not all drivers are created equal, of course. but this, just makes sense
tysm for the great content! well articulated and put across!
I could watch an hour long video on this topic. thanks for this
In sports psych, I was taught that we don’t “lose focus” but simply our attention is shifted elsewhere. Appreciate the video talking about that as I don’t see many (as I recall) who do.
Regarding constantly changing HRTF, variable frequency hyperacusis is a bitch 😂😭
Finally you’re back! Love your content, man :)
And that Glowup shouldn’t be under appreciated too hehehe
Indeed
Drivers are not weightless that travel at the speed of light. For me, the time it takes a driver to start and stop moving and follow an input signal is what accounts for resolution. Detail retrieval is much more frequency response based, because if a high-resolution driver is rolled off above 10Khz, you will not hear certain sounds in the music loud enough, even though those quiet sounds are being reproduced at a high resolution.
The highest resolution headphones I've heard are planars like the LCD-X, Arya, Susvara, electrostats like STAXX, Warick, and a couple dynamics like the HD 800, Utopia, and to a less degree Clear, K712 Pro, and TH900.
Details also depending who we are talking to, like from someone that use mass market earphones and pass them some hobbyist IEM and they will say wow lots of details but matter of fact it’s just trebles and high boosted
Precog, thank you, excellent presentation, very informative, I very much appreciate your effort to present information that is at times difficult for me in such a clear way. Thank you again.
The video justifies the name of my channel pretty well. Very good video for everyone in the hobby, and who wants to start. Good one Precog.
Is it possible people are also mistaking instrument separation, or staging, as detail retrieval? Are those values you can measure?
Yes. Audio is super subjective and some people hear better or different. But some audiophiles think that their hearing is holier than thou and what they hear is the “standard”
@@Non-y3s are you lost? None of these deceptions are controversial or need super ears to hear them. Everyone hears it, but the deception of what you heard is subjective.
Those are a part of "perceived detail "
For example boost the 3 to 4 kHz and vocals will pop out from the rest and iem will sound more spacious. Or boost the 10k abd you'll hear more detail in high hats etc.
They’re not mistaking anything because they are indeed related. Instrument separation is in the source material aka music. The less details are masked by the IEM/headphone, the less information you lose, including the positional cues within the soundstage. These can be correlated to measurements of frequency response plus waterfall plots (resonances mask details).
Well said Theo, that’s coming from my personal stance of being a comparative rationalist in audio/iem’s.
I’ve been in the hobby of personal audio since saving up for a Walkman DC2 as a teenager in the 80’s and I sometimes despair at the talk of reviewers (online and on forums) comparing the sound of one iem to another that they previously listened to, paragraph after paragraph of flowery prose that very often contradicts itself time and time again, and don’t get me started on silver vs copper cables.
Sit me down with two iem’s of relatively similar response and I’d be hard pressed to distinguish much, if anything different between them.
Sony XBA - N3’s and Symphonium Meteors for the win btw, ;)
Then your ears a broken. Very noticeable subjective differences between planars, dynamic and estate headphones.
Oof, I just realised you are in your 50s and like iems with overly bloated and warm sounding mushy bass. Yes, seems your ears are.
@@jefryions5657you’re a bit of a cheeky twat, . At no point did I mention headphones yet you bring these into the discussion, perhaps pay attention to what people write before jumping on your keyboard like an excited terrier.
I’ts true I’m 50 and can only hear to 15khz but why the attack mode and insults?
Have a nice day nonetheless
@@jefryions5657 It shouldn't always come down to actual hearing acuity or whatever. Attentiveness matters A LOT.
It's the same for all senses. For example, I have trouble discerning some colours (dunno how's that condition called in English, but it's not colorblindness proper) and dwindling eyesight, yet I'm more "sensitive" to hue and tone differences than most people simply due to the fact that I pay more attention to such things, oftentimes involuntarily as well (OCD).
I tend to easily perceive the slightest changes in FR when it comes to audio, but only when there's not much time between assessments and no refitting of IEMs/headphones (EQ, digital reconstruction filters etc).
new precog video, nice!
Detail as a term is currently hopeless since almost any change to fr can cause a user to call it more detail. Mist of the time it's also "detailed compared to my old headphone" and mainly translates as "better" in general.
Detail could and should refer to the lack of or matching coloration in the sound so that you feel you hear more music than headphone. That said current practical accuracy of EQ's still leave major difference between headphones especially. A 7506 sounds grainy (to me at least) while LCD-5 sounds uniquely detailed.
Makes perfect sense. Great video.
I've started going through my IEMS and modding them by ear. No measurements. I love data so that part kills me but I love how amazing I'm getting my budget and ultra budget sets to sound. I've yet to hear a really pricey IEM, until then, I'm not convinced they will sound much better than what I've tuned myself. I do look for gems and good drivers but there is no lack of those these days in budget land. Looks to me like more expensive IEMS have put the attention to detail with filters and foams which give should give you a better plug and play exoerienxe. Where as budget sets are more of a one size fits, YMMV.
good effort Precog.
Great video, you guys are the digital foundry but for headphones!
Great video, make more like that. well done.
Its a good topic , I just started to mention my "Treble Sensitive" after buying the Beyerdynamics. At first it was the pure shrill Sound that pierced my Eears but after Eq the Treble a bit down and the lower part a bit higher it felt comfortable. The same applies for my Iem list , I just tried the Shanling UA3 as my first Amp/Dac and thought about how shouty some Iems are but after switching the Dac/Amp it was all gone. Ears are weird sometimes. And I noticed over the Years that I can hear more Frequency than my Family or Friends. Needed to swap my Monitor & Case because some components are to loud in the High Frequencys at least for me. I would love to try more Iem´s to experience more of these unique things.
I find treble extension very important on multidriver IEMs. You don't implement EST drivers which roll off too quickly. They're just too expensive to use without utilizing their whole potential. For example Shuoer EJ07m got 4 ESTs for treble but has way too much treble roll-off. Imho it's like driving with tightened handbrake 😌
The Elysian Annihilator discredits what you just said with the very same Sonion EST drivers. Most detailed treble I have ever heard lol
@@dirty_dan75158 I know that they're one of the best regarding proper treble extension. I have Monarch Mk3 and I'm also very satisfied with its treble.
My Night Oblivion Butasturs are like this amazing everywhere else, but even with eq, not enough upper treble
Nice gains, mate... we share the same two hobbies
Part of this video / theory, makes me wonder how much X order harmonics influence other frequencies or something of that nature. Like a more granular/detail look at auditory masking. Is it just the amplitude of the timbre shift or is there spillover into other frequencies perceptually? In the example of the cymbal, there were frequencies below the "bulk" of the sound also, so larger amplitude bass could impact the perception of cymbals hits same as treble frequencies.
When doing measurements would doing a sweep with complex tones rather than pure tones provide a more objective realistic to ear response?
One of the things rarely discussed is that what sounds “harsh” to our ears really has more to do with resonances in the frequency response. Sudden changes come off as harsh to the ear, so having a smooth chart is important to help avoid that, as well as having the proper slope as direct energy up top comes off as too bright to us. A smooth gentle slightly downward slope should sound the best to us. The other factor is where these changes occur as some audio bands really aren’t as important because they contain less “essential” content.
4:51 Strange, I think people who have a hearing loss above 10khz prefer the iem with extension or exaggeration in the higher frequencies. A friend who is a retired chopper pilot, without exception, prefers iems or headphones which have exaggerated air frequencies.
I also want to add distorsion to the factors thats into to the mix for detail. Low dist will enhance detail in my opinion.
distortion is largely inaudible for the absolute majority of iems and headphones at reasonable listening levels
@@timothylai8483 "largely" "majority". You couldn't be any less scientific if you were in the flat earth society. Lmao
@@En_Joshi-Godrez I say largely inaudible beacuse it will always be audible, but to an incredibly miniscule extent which is unlikely to be caught by human perception.
Hey Theo, I really want you to try the Fir Audio Radon 6 and hear your take on the IEM before it’s sold out completely. I think it’s a contender for the best bass response maybe even besting the IE900. It has to be the kinetic bass technology with a bone conduction effect of displaying the bass but I’m not qualified to say otherwise.
It’s an interesting tech reminiscent of the bone conduction drivers inside the MEST but instead is more forward acoustically. Could be revolutionary but not many big reviewers have got their hands on it. Thanks!
One thing I noticed when listening to very loud music for a couple of hours my hearing get's blocked and I feel that I have to pump up the volume more in which when I'm walking outside people look at me to turn it down, also I've noticed sometime my hearing is more sensitive like I can hear more detail and think WOW this IEM/Headphone/Speaker sounds amazing and other times with the same type of audio equipment think this sounds awful, so for me just as recently I stopped worrying about detail, resolution, imaging, soundstage and so on because our hearing is untrustworthy because that a was topic was driving me crazy.
Yeah, our sound perception is just too unstable. There's SO many factors influencing it at any given point.
@@juanblanco7898 Yes definitely, I've noticed at times my hearing is sometimes better than others, like sometimes in the same listening session with the same audio equipment my ears become blocked and my perception of the clarity and , resolution & detail of the music sounds muddy after a while, but then when I listen to music later on in the day and give my ears a couple of hours to settle down and rest my hearing goes back to normal and I can hear the music with clarity and detail but that never lasts too long and then I keep pumping up the volume which isn't good for my hearing.
@@robertobuatti7226 I know it's hard to do, but you should do your best to avoid turning the volume up in such cases. Instead every time you feel the need to do so, you should give your ears a break, even if for a couple of minutes. Best to have all your music normalized, since it may have differing digital levels and you may not know whether it's just that the actual musical track is quiter or the auditory fatigue has settled in.
It's best to avoid or be really careful when listening to music when you're sick or drunk, for example, because your hearing might get muffled, which will incentivise you to turn the volume up in order to compensate.
If the fatigue always comes quick, even when you're being careful with volume, most likely the issue is with the FR of your -phones. Many, if not the most IEMs and headphones will produce sound that's overly sharp/bright/gritty (even if it might not necessarily be readily apparent to the untrained ear) due to peaks or simply incorrect overall tonal balance (treble biased). Though you can get fatigue from bass as well, but that usually takes a lot.
It's paramount to get the smoothest head-/earphones possible. And then there's in-ear length mode resonances, but that's a whole different story that's far harder to tackle, if at all possible.
@@juanblanco7898 Oh thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it, yes I need to get smooth IEMS and headphones because I do get a bit of listening fatigue after a while, which is why I turn up the volume because of the sharpness of the FR my ears gets blocked and then music starts to sound muffled which at first the extra sharpness with the music to my ear gives me a perception of clarity, resolution and detail but that doesn't last long. I wonder if you can get apps that measure db on how loud you listen to music, that would be very helpful for me not blowing out my hearing.
@@robertobuatti7226 As far as I'm aware therefore no reliable way know the actual SPL you're listening at. I would LOVE to have such a tool. Last time I checked was probably two years ago, so maybe there's something now, but honestly I doubt it. I kind of already screwed up my hearing so I don't listen to music much anymore.
Maybe with TWS you can get close to what you want, at least potentially. There was also a feature in the FiiO Control app for BTR5 (I'm willing to bet it's the same with BTR7 and BTR15) which calculated the expected volume level based off the specs of BTR5 itself and specs of your headphones. Don't know how accurate it is, though, and there's still no way to account for different track mastering levels (you can overcome this, I believe, but that may require you to learn quite a few things) .
Imo I related detail to dynamic range, the difference of the quietest sound to the loudest ones, and the capability of the iem or headphones to have as wide as possible dynamic range. I thought that detail was lost in the compression of dynamic range. Like in photography as an exemple.
Hi Theo !
U named SUBTONIC STORM as"one of most detailed iem"-but is over expensive!
Can u name it-"acording to your hearing" -very detailed iem around 1000$ ?
Is there any very detailed iem around 500$-or even around 100$ that you can name it ?
Biggest thanx in advance for your answers !!!!!
7:25
When one flaw is masking another flaw 😁
1:43 not all ppl listen to 20khz either way. Even kids can struggle to listen to 20khz. I dont think we need that higher bands to listen to a good treble either way. And there is not a lot of music info in there is mostly the ambience the air of the headphones.
Precog, what watch are you wearing?
To me, "detail" is just the absence of distortion. Which is why i like the word "resolution", a low-resolution IEM sounds like a low-resolution image looks (grainy?). I'm a guitarist, so i like to test this by listening to specific metal tracks. Electric guitars often sound... mushy through IEMs (or headphones). Many IEMs also distort in busy tracks (e.g. "The Airbuster" theme from FF7). I guess some of that might be attributable to frequency response, but some IEMs just distort when you push them, especially in the lower price range.
Whatever happened to Chrono?
He probably quit the hobby after trying the IE900 lol
Why we just dont make a flat frequency iem? So we can hear everything. Just compensate hrtf. And that hrtf, we need to create self sine sweep to fit everyone's ear
An android app called sound id, does just that if i remember well but result was not impressive in the end
I feel like the detail discussion is missing one factor - that detail _might_ be measurable, we just can't with our current tech/understanding, especially because I find it hard to see why a research company would invest into something only a handful of people would be passionate about. Detail certainly isn't as subjective as other aspects (e.g. imaging), as anyone would be able to hear extremely bad detail, accounting for all other aspects, and I'd imagine non-audiophiles could still hear good detail, even if they're not actively trying to spot it. Even intuitively, different drivers are gonna produce different sound waves, which our ears are more than capable of picking up on. Things like attack/decay, drivers continuing to move after a signal stops, reverberation, etc. aren't currently measured, but would likely play a role in determining detail retrieval, right?
Censored LOL.
Is that the Campfire Saber?
ah yes. elysian diva. something we have all heard and have a common reference to /s
Holy crap, you workout a lot and it shows. Nice!
You’re like a fine IEM. 😂
Bass + lover
Are you changing opinion on something that is judged in all of your reviews, detail and resolution?
Speaking of detail retrieval; That dog vanished into thin air. Hope you got him back. 🤔
Lets go to extremes here. If we compare similarly tuned headphones, but first one costs 20 bucks and second 2000, then there well definitely more details in the latter, even though they are both v-shaped. So, i presume that difference is in the driver that is lighter and able to vibrate faster with better control over when it stops and starts vibrating on a micro level. So, i reckon that mostly detail depends on how fast and controlled the driver is.
Resolve here - that would then also show up in FR, specifically in the upper frequencies.
@@TheHEADPHONEShow I remember in the lcd-5 review you claimed how they’re an example of FR not telling a anything about detail, as they measure dark..
@@kajetan9550 That's right, the issue isn't that it's not all being measured, the issue is that the analysis for these things is lacking.
@@kajetan9550 it is still in the frequency response. however, we don't have a good enough way to tell from the fr whether something has good detail or not. what we have are just crude heuristics, which will fail sometimes. but that doesn't mean that such information isn't contained in the frequency response. we just don't have a reliable way of interpreting the response into subjective perception of detail yet.
Good point but planars are said to be faster than DD but i did not hear more details on my s12 vs my olina ( similar price range)
That mirai money got my man looking a lil yoked in this video lol
You are really discrediting your own $1100 iem in this video. If FR is all that mattered (which isnt true, go listen to a stax 007 or LCD 4), then why didnt you design a iem with your preferred FR for $150 or less? The tuning you selected is perfectly possible from cheaper drivers. No excuse there.
👏
True. And that's why you don't pay for tuning.
Damn, you really went mad at the first instance of hearing Frequency Response
It got cut out of this video, but I DO believe there is a correlation between 1) more expensive IEMs and 2) more detailed IEMs. It’s primarily based on more expensive IEMs having access to more drivers (which afford greater tuning granularity) and better tuning techniques.
In this vein, it’s not possible to achieve Mirai’s tuning with cheaper drivers or conventional tuning techniques. I don’t understand where the assumption that it could be done for under $150 came from - and if this is true, I’d love to be pointed to an example that measures identically to the Mirai ;)
FWIW, I have heard both the Stax 007 and LCD4 and dozens of other headphones most would consider detailed. I would gently suggest not getting wrapped up in this whole tuning vs technicalities debate. It’s the subjective experience that matters most, to you, whether it all stems from FR or a variety of other factors 🙂
Exactly. The 007 and lcd 4 are both very dark and not a detailed oriented signiture by any definition, yet they are the exact opposite. Driver quality matters regardless of FR. Almost all audezes are a testament to that.
Is that a gmt
Amir is right all along! There’s no detail, everything is FR!
This is a very handsome man.
2 yrs ago he looked like a total nerd but now is the opposite lol
Hit the gym, folks!
Ikr
the bad new is what people don't know how that should sound. and manufacturer gives them awfully made IEMs and saying 'it's s Gem'! and their untrained ears starts learning with this sound. when audio engeniers can say - all this IEMs overcolored and you should listen all this details.
and I confirming this cos' I worked with mixes on studio monitors - they didn't produce this awfully sound signatures where highs drops on you like w tropical rain. and after this I hearing about 'bad mixes'. in the era where everyone can afford usb interface for sound production.
change my mind audiophiles.
4:46:"Quite as good " 😂 bruh i dont think you need to use the whole spectrum to listen good to music.
conclusion: only I hear the truth - though reality is not my truth (sadge)
So buy a $10 iem and EQ it to the curve of a $3-5k iem and you're golden right?
I mean i prefer my wan'er over my mestmk2, sa6mk2 and ie600
precum
Looks like you are straining yourself to talk that deeply
Hi🫨
Talk about that trash can with Led lights, we don't care about Iems)
Headphones will Always better than those chinese iems