I didn't know ring tension kept kept combustion out. I always thought combustion pressure got behind the ring and 'pushed' it out. (Maybe both are right.) Google.. 'Combustion gas pressure behind the ring forces the piston ring against the cylinder wall to form a seal. Pressure applied to the piston ring is approximately proportional to the combustion gas pressure.'
Absolutely true that pressure behind the ring forces the seal, BUT for that to happen the ring must first have tension against the cylinder wall. If the ring fits the bore too loosely then the pressure will tend to act on the forward facing side and actually push the ring back into the land. pressure seeking the path of least resistance
I don’t make an argument either way but if this concept interests you something to look into is how some piston manufacturers will drill gas holes into the piston crown to help pressurize the ring against the wall. Cool stuff and sorta on topic 👍👍😁
Compression stroke is not the only phase of a 4-stroke engine. Think about the essential vacuum of the intake stroke. Poor ring tension will allow oil and crankcase vapors to get by, into the cylinder. So, it’s not only about the gasses behind the rings causing seal. Ring tension causes seal too.
In Australia/New Zeeland its common to regrind lifter. They even grind new lifters to make sure theyre right. This is supposedly because they used to have problem sourcing parts from the US and later due to chinese produced parts.
Why do you have to steal a guys leg? Come on man, give old peg leg his leg back so he can do more videos. Ole zip ties and bias plies is bad ass, more American than most Americans!
Googled the crap out of the cam/lifter issues, be easier to find Epstein's list that a good answer on that subject. I've come to one conclusion, I hope I get lucky when I finally get my "low budget" 318 together. Should call it the "crooked deck 318". When it comes to machine shops, paying a lot of money doesn't mean it gets done right. 😂
The reconditioned Lifters could be actually better than some of these newly Manufactured ones, because when they (If it's a reputable Firm) recondition the lifters they have to make sure they are in the correct tolerances before they send them out. And with some of the Fresh ones, they might not be checking this as stringently, or only checking One in a Batch of several Thousand or so..
I went through 2 camshafts the first one had 3 flat lobes no tapper whatsoever sent it back and ordered the same cam directly from the manufacturer brand name and one lobe had less taper than the rest . It's sad that you have to ship out a new brand name cam to fix the lobe so you have to spend another 180 to get it right but it's cheaper than a wipe out. I don't want to get into lifters but you need to check them and you can't cheap out on lifters anymore.
@B.Southards It wasn't Summit but this going on across the board you have to check camshaft lobes for tapper and the lifters for proper crown. It's not just camshafts you have to clean and check oil pumps for small particles of slage from manufacturing. I had a new oil pump quite on me in the first 100 miles luckily I was monitoring it closely and shout it down immediately and I was amazed of what came out the the high flow replacement I got new. There is no Quality Control anymore .
In the future? We shall clone Uncle Tony's, and install them at all High School Automotive shop classes. Its not that he's some wizard or something. Its just that he explains things in the way folks use too. He's the closest thing to those old fashion Technical videos from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Its just the delivery that I like so much.
Measuring can get technical. A dial indicator would accurately show lobe taper. There are a few things necessary to do that. A pair of matched V blocks and a flat surface plate, dial indicator and base.
Matched v blocks is a bad way to do it. The front bearing surface is always the biggest. So it wont be level in matched blocks. Measure it in a lathe, the way it is supposed to be done. If you don't have a lathe, take it somewhere they know what they are doing. "Close enough", is why they fail, and v blocks are not close enough...
Protip, you will NEVER make oil better than what you can buy off the rack by pouring random additives in it. Miscibility aside there's way more going on in there than "more ZDDP more better". If you insist on high zinc oil or whatever just buy it.
Yes. Because most modern off the shelf oils have a lot of detergents that will clean off the protective layer of zddp and other wear agents. I like the lucas classic car oil
@@Terminxman What I'm getting at is stuff like how past a certain point too much ZDDP (up around 1600+ ppm IIRC) it actually creates wear problems, there is a sweet spot around 800-1200. There is also nothing magical about ZDDP, there are other extreme pressure anti wear additives in engine oil, some of which don't even show up on a basic oil analysis. Tribology is a big complicated field, you will struggle to outsmart the engineers.
@@Broken_Yugo I've thought about this myself, considering there are engines with flat tappets that ran in production until almost the 2000s and no one was adding zinc to their oil or using anything special. But, even mobil 1 synthetic has about 800 ppm of zddp. I'm not sure that's what I'd run in a classic engine.
@@Terminxman John Deere still builds some of their engines with flat tappet cams today. The popular Cummins pickup 5.9-6.7 was flat tappet as well till 2020. Failures in them are like next to nothing and their tappets actually are flat they have no crown only the cam is tapered to promote rotation.
@@Terminxman another thing that now comes to mind along those lines. Last I knew (well into API SN oil) GM would sell you flat tappet 350 small block crate motors up to like 400hp, with a warranty. The instructions did stress the usual cam break in procedure, but made zero specification to oil beyond "high quality 10w30". That tells me it's totally possible to build a flat tappet motor and break it in with ordinary contemporary oil, and a motor built to mass manufacturing standards at that.
One way to measure the lobe taper is to put the camshaft on V blocks and use a dial test indicator ( not a dial indicator, they are different) mounted to a surface gage base. Use these tools on a surface plate, or even a table saw would do. You could easily measure the lobe taper to within .0005 which is within the accuracy needed.
Likely need to put the cam between centers, due to cam bearing journals being different diameters, but yeah, surface plare and a height gage would be great!
It’s not like the additives don’t “mix.” The high detergents in off the shelf oils clean the zddp and other deposits off of the surfaces which you don’t want
Very different animal, but I adjusted my Weber 38 in my Jeep 258 (custom sized Aux Vent and hand ground Em tubes), I got to a richer mixture (from about 16 to 12.25) for max TQ. And my engine Temps dropped by about 5 degrees and stayed more consistent. Kinda cool, you read about stuff like Thermal Barriers, but it's awesome to actually see it!!
On the lifter subject, I saw this. On the Chevrolet Performance, or AC Delco web site it said....for proper camshaft and lifter function...you should get 45 degrees rotation minimum on the lifter...for every two crankshaft rotations. I have seen this on flat tappet lifters, they rotate as the lifter rises...I think. But I never gave the amount or crank revolutions a number as I watched. This was noticed as I primed the oil system, and rotated the crank, looking for oil to flow out each push rod. I will be paying more attention on next build. 4 what it's worth.
25 years ago, I had a cylinder head remanufactured for a Ford Escort. 3000 miles later, loud lifter clacking and loss of oil pressure. Turns out, they resurfaced the lifters when they rebuilt the head. The lifter foot ground all the way through to the inner bore. All that metal went through my engine. I was a pissed off fellow. Resurfaced lifters are a thing especially with large engine remanufacturers. Powell machine has a great video on this problem.
I've had shavings in a rebuilt motor too, good thing they were noticed before running. My dad had a guy put the wrong head on a car once. Some people man.
First of all, I recommend a NON DETERGENT oil for break in, along with a ZDDP additive. The additive will work much better with a non detergent oil. Most of this oil thing is the EPAs fault to begin with. I have built so many engines using STP oil treatment (back when it came in a can instead of a plastic bottle) as an assembly lube, and common engine oil, and had no problems. The cam/lifter problem seems to be a combination of bad EPA oil and improperly manufactured cams and lifters. I have never used stainless steel rings. Not even in engines built for a combination of street/strip use. I believe Finnegans Hemi has a rigged up EFI system, designed to look like an old Hilborn system (I kind of lost track of things when he and David Freiburger split up) I have never built or even owned an engine that was not carbureted. IMO, EFI is another EPA boondoggle (talk about alphabet soup)
conceptually efi isn't an epa boondoggle and it can be more versatile and better all around. if you make an efi system to replace the american emissions regulations carbs for high displacement cars ran at low power for some genius reason then it's a boondoggle, being a system to replace crap with a system that replicates crap.
Very informative but still find it very hard to believe there are companies remanufacturing old used lifters. To get any volume to do such a thing companies would require a core exchange system and no one is doing it. Also how could they cost effectively resurface and remachine a lifter. After googling it to death found one company (Mizpah Precision) that works on a core exchange program for remanufactured automotive lifters on specific vehicles. So the chances of ordering remanufactured lifters online or at your automotive parts store without knowing it is a non issue. However the taper issue with new cams and crown issue with new lifters that is an issue no question about it.
No core exchange necessary at all. Tens of thousands of engines are disassembled and recycled in one form or another every day, all over the world. I never talked about it on this channel, but the common practice back in the day was to resurface lifters on your own using nothing but fine emery cloth. The cloth would lay flat on the bench, and you would take each lifter and run its face over the emery cloth in a figure 8 pattern several times. I know it sounds crazy in todays world, but it was a normal thing to do, just like pouring your own bearings from babbitt and shaping it with a knife.
They probably get the cores from engine remanufacturing companies because of volume. You'd be surprised at what foreign companies will do for $$ and the ships go back over there cheap because we don't make anything here they need. They give the 10yo kids 25¢ an hr to disassemble and inspect the lifters. Then they throw them in a machine to grind the bottom, (maybe) clean it slap it back together toss it in a white box and sell it on eBay.
@@UncleTonysGarage That answer is how Uncle Tony "Tells you how old he is without actually telling you his age." 👍😁 (Edit to add, I actually remember watching both those procedures growing up.) 🙄🤣👍
you get the cores for basically _free_. why you'd need a core exchange system for that if you can get the customer to buy the core outright? edit: as to how, you have low paid workforce who doesn't care throw them in a cleaner, then in a jig, run it and throw it in a box.
@@UncleTonysGarage Thanks for responding. I had tried to research who is remanufacturing automotive lifters and only found one "Mizpah Precision". They have a core exchange program and only make lifters for specific engines. So are you implying that some major lifter suppliers are selling remanufactured lifters as new? If this is so would be good to expose the supplier.
Excellent 'clarification' of your earlier comments Tony. Many of us knew what you meant first time, but fair enough to elaborate on it. 👍 I'm not one to chase that last half a horsepower at all costs, my 'quick' street engines run plain black cast rings. They do the job fine, and reliably as per your words "for your application". Great job Tony.
I built my friends 429 FORD 28 YEARS ago...585 lift Hyd Cam...IRON RING....IT HAS 10,000 miles on it SO far....driven every summer since ....just had to freshen up the C-6 trans last winter ,1972 TORINO fast back...poor fuel economy for sure...it runs like day one....
I never had cam issues...but the last cam I swapped was in 2004. I'm about to pull the trigger on a '66 Chevy with a transplanted 350 and a cam change might be on my list. I'm a bit nervous. Used to be 1-2-3 have a nice day.
Question UTG, What are your thoughts on grooving the lifter bore to provide positive oil to the leading edge of the cam on flat tappet cams? Comp makes a tool for this now (5003, 5005, 5007).
Once again, very interesting, very informative. This is the kinda stuff you just don't really get anywhere else. A good use of my 15 minutes of time. Thanks UT.
If you like this video you should definitely watch Muscle Car Solutions video. I like Tony but anytime I have a question on something he covers I have to count on someone in the comments clarifying. Over at Muscle Car Solutions the guy making the videos will answer whatever questions you have. He has helped me out multiple times. Can't say enough good things about him.
@@BPattB yes your right going to check out thanks been asking him he's input on motor things for while i do like tony but he just won't get back on recommendations 👍
I have been looking for a video that showed exactly how the slope of the cam lobe and the crown radius of the lifter imparts the spin to the lifter. This is something my father showed me, and motor manuals used to illustrate. Take two lifters and place them in contact crown to crown and you will clearly see the radius of those lifters. And if I am remembering correctly that radius is a 30-inch radius. When seated onto the cam lobe the contact point is off center due to the slope of the cam lobe. That off center contact is what imparts the spin to the lifter. This is vital for longevity as this creates a rolling contact point. Throw in a film of oil and "VIOLA" (as the French would say) you can get 100K + miles easily as opposed to 5k without rotation (if you're lucky)
I would like to point out: Computer simulations of the air/fuel mixture going through a running engine are cool and all, but they do not explain the cooling effects of un-burned fuel in cylinder and what can happen under certain conditions. This channel is so awesome :)
Just watched an interview with Clay Smith Cam's and they said "Their cams are ground with .004 taper" possibly they are measuring like you did. Delta cams in Tacoma, WA will reface lifters. They have been around for as long as I can remember. They are a cam regrinder.
Top fuel dragsters ingest a fuel air mixture that is so wet that it very nearly causes hydraulic lock during the compression stage. That is when you use stainless rings and remember these engines are rebuilt every run
I personally have reconditioned solid lifters! VW shop I did my engine reconditioner apprenticeship. We would put a short piece of wooden broom handle in their top end and grind them on the tip dressing end of a valve grinder with a one degree angle to give it its crown.
You need to use some V blocks and a height gauge or dial indicator to measure that taper properly. A pair of calipers aren't going get get you good measurements.
Uncle Tony you have given me some kind of sickness! All day every day damn near the only thing on my mind is something involving my 289 build or cars or sourcing parts or learning this stuff or figuring out how to make this a lifestyle. Checking marketplace every chance I get, sudden bouts of browsing crusty forum posts from the early 2000's to see if a less than ideal part will fit, imagining myself this summer plowing though gears behind that 289 in the 66' Comet I'm putting together, I'm obsessed with the challenge of doing this stuff as a piss poor college student!
@@chrisbrownjohn6277 200 six is a good engine. I rebuilt a 1970 model out of a Maverick and put it in an 80 Fairmont wagon that had a blown engine. Used the 1980 head after grinding the valves.
Yeah taper shouldnt be that hard to measure....I guess my question is why its that hard to grind a lobe with a taper. Im not really a grind hand by any means.
I thought in order for a zinc additive to work it needs to be used with a non-deturgent motor oil. I think this is explained in a My vintage iron video.
He'll have do one about his comments on the oil and additive next. He clearly doesn't have enough knowledge about how oils/additive work based on what he said.
Good morning Tony.....I totally agree with you on the fact that Old School Stuff Works....check out FORD BOSS ME ...Channel ,on all of the problems on the 1.5 ECOBOOST...ITS a MODERN TECH MOTOR...LOL
At 170,000 miles I must be still breaking in my 2012 Mazda3 Skyactive because I use a half bottle of STP every oil change. Doesn't use any oil and is quieter than it was brand new.
Don't even trust the cam or lifters to be in spec from any cam maker. Measure or have measured the taper of the cam and the crown of the lifters. If they aren't perfert send them back or get them corrected. No amount of proper procedure can correct for poor machining specs. Tony said it himself when the comp cam bearing journals were ground too big. You have to check everything. That means EVERYTHING. Best detail and correction of cams and lifters I've seen: ruclips.net/video/DMFikj-TAqo/видео.html&feature=shares
Check out Powell Machine inc. channel here on RUclips. This gentleman KNOWS all about lifters and camshafts! He refaces lifters and grinds his own cams, has videos checking Rockwell hardness on lifters and camshafts, grinding lifters and cams! Check them out!
I thought the guy in the video was dumping on DD in Winnipeg. Sorta general comments that he didn’t do the break in correctly for the big block Biscayne.
I'm watching cam/lifters, closer than my old asses bowel movements!!! We are in trouble!!! Edit. I'm using "Eastwood" zinc oil additive. And have for years. In single cylinder small engines, and anything with a flat tappet cam. Old, new, or ugly.
Back in the late 80s maybe mid 80s I can’t remember Charles and Albert had a zero gap ring set. The second ring had a step and you had to end gap. She had to check the top and bottom of the ring that ring made an engine gain 15 hp just changing the ring that’s the way to go plus the scrapes well it’s got a little taper to the face and help scrape the oil down. Anyway this is six in a row jim yeah I’m that guy who’s got that 91 dodge three-quarter ton with six and a row under the hood. All right Tony good video always learn something from you all right oh by the way a ring we always used to use speed pro Molly ring the top ring barrel faced real good seal plus it’s nice to the cylinder wall.
Bought a JEGS flat tappet cam and lifters - ran for about 250 miles and had to adjust the rockers 2-3 times. Pulled it out (not flat yet) and installed a hydraulic roller cam by Howards. Had to change springs, pin my rocker studs, cam button, new distributer gear and roller tipped rockers. Expensive upgrade for someone on a fixed income. That's why I went with the cheap Jegs cam in the first place. Yes, I broke it in properly - it was just junk material.
SRC Automotive in Springfield MO remans the lifters and installs them in their reman engines. I know this because I worked in the lifter room for over a year. I disassembled and reassembled a "ton" of lifters. Mostly GM The springs and balls were replaced with new and as far as I know customers had no complaints.
Well, when you say the lifter failure issue is because lifters are being reconditioned and everyone is having issues with all manufacturers. It's implied that you are saying all suppliers are doing this. If I remember correctly, you did specifically say it's a problem across the board. I think he was talking about that Matt mews guy because he is the one that took his video down.
Hello uncle tony. Ive been watching you for a while now. I just need help on my 68 slant six valiant. Im facing an issue where the carb is flooding on cold start and the car starts but it dies if i dont hold the pedal. What could it be? Thanks for teaching me so much
Yea the tapered cam does it all the time especially on mopar.If you have lathe just chuck the cam in it with the centre stop on so it don't wobble select low operating speed on the lathe spray wd40 on cam lobe for cutting lube hold the flat ratstail file 2 -3 degrees sort like Tony's hair from front to back thin to thick anyway back to the task at hand what you do is follow the motion of the cam loble so you have it even at 2-3 degrees be patient you will see it happening. Clean lobe take a measure once you have done all lobes take out of the lathe give it a really good clean.The next step is to hang it up with some wire bush some high zink oil onto the lobes ,now next you will have to harden the cam using a blow torch propane gently heat up each lobe moving onto the next one once a the smoke has gone from the cam you un hook the cam and from where it is hanging and cool it down under a running tap,the more pressure the tap has the faster the cam will work. Now the final stage is to dry cam hang it back up spray the the cam with extra zinc additive Satan black paint oh yea don't forget to mask up the bearing journals too, you don't want them black or coated. Ready for fitting to your mopar or if you like put it into a cam box and send it to Tony to test.
I watched the same video, as I commented, I personally never had these issues 20 years ago, now I’m not taking about high performance engines just regular daily driver engines
Wouldn't stainless steel rings take a lot longer to break in, being that they're made of metal of which is dissimilar to the cast-iron cylinder walls of which they ride on? In other applications, a dissimilar metal is needed for producing the least amount of friction between moving parts. That's why valve guides are cast in bronze and engine bearings cast in a blend of tin and lead
The thing is which side of the lobe is the taper. Cause it look like it's on the base circle not the lobe. Then you say the lifter has a crown which would promote lifter spin on lobe. So it takes both crown and taper. Maybe these failed cams are missing one or both.?? Look at the ware pattern on that cam in front of you.
I know this channel is for the home-gamer But Ive seen guys send out brand new lifters to have a 2 degree dome machined on the face to ensure plenty of spin and correct wear…….
I didn't know ring tension kept kept combustion out. I always thought combustion pressure got behind the ring and 'pushed' it out. (Maybe both are right.) Google.. 'Combustion gas pressure behind the ring forces the piston ring against the cylinder wall to form a seal. Pressure applied to the piston ring is approximately proportional to the combustion gas pressure.'
Absolutely true that pressure behind the ring forces the seal, BUT for that to happen the ring must first have tension against the cylinder wall. If the ring fits the bore too loosely then the pressure will tend to act on the forward facing side and actually push the ring back into the land.
pressure seeking the path of least resistance
This month's issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines has a very detailed article about rings and the forces at work and the new thinner rings.
If you ring has lost that much tension you have massive issues with heat. Most turbo engine rings have stainless top, and a iron ring second.
I don’t make an argument either way but if this concept interests you something to look into is how some piston manufacturers will drill gas holes into the piston crown to help pressurize the ring against the wall. Cool stuff and sorta on topic 👍👍😁
Compression stroke is not the only phase of a 4-stroke engine. Think about the essential vacuum of the intake stroke. Poor ring tension will allow oil and crankcase vapors to get by, into the cylinder.
So, it’s not only about the gasses behind the rings causing seal. Ring tension causes seal too.
Give peg his leg back
In all actuality, it wasn’t your channel or any video I was referring to. But I do appreciate the tag! Good video.
Just buy the damn break in oil! Geez people it's one time cost! And vr1 is cheap.
Joe Gibbs ... break in oil
Give Peg his wooden leg back
Yeah that’s crazy 🤦🏻♂️
What happened to zip ties leg?
Odd seeing Tony wear a shirt that isn't black.
Give Peg his leg back lol
In Australia/New Zeeland its common to regrind lifter. They even grind new lifters to make sure theyre right.
This is supposedly because they used to have problem sourcing parts from the US and later due to chinese produced parts.
Why did you steal a peg leg from a crippled?
Why do you have to steal a guys leg? Come on man, give old peg leg his leg back so he can do more videos. Ole zip ties and bias plies is bad ass, more American than most Americans!
Googled the crap out of the cam/lifter issues, be easier to find Epstein's list that a good answer on that subject.
I've come to one conclusion, I hope I get lucky when I finally get my "low budget" 318 together. Should call it the "crooked deck 318". When it comes to machine shops, paying a lot of money doesn't mean it gets done right. 😂
Hi Bobby,
I'd be interested to hear your conclusion, since everyone seems to have a different answer on RUclips.
Bart
@@bartsarton2212 Conclusion? I certainly haven't found one! 😂
The reconditioned Lifters could be actually better than some of these newly Manufactured ones, because when they (If it's a reputable Firm) recondition the lifters they have to make sure they are in the correct tolerances before they send them out. And with some of the Fresh ones, they might not be checking this as stringently, or only checking One in a Batch of several Thousand or so..
It does not matter how much zinc you have in the oil, if the cam is ground wrong nothing will save it.
Thats one advantage to OHC engines. I broke mine in on the starter motor basically and its fine
@@nicholasagnew2792 not about OHC vs OHV. It’s flat tappet vs rollers which don’t require a special breakin
Where is your new trofeo: The wood Peg’s leg? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I went through 2 camshafts the first one had 3 flat lobes no tapper whatsoever sent it back and ordered the same cam directly from the manufacturer brand name and one lobe had less taper than the rest . It's sad that you have to ship out a new brand name cam to fix the lobe so you have to spend another 180 to get it right but it's cheaper than a wipe out. I don't want to get into lifters but you need to check them and you can't cheap out on lifters anymore.
Let me guess.....it was inCOMPetent Cams?
I hope it wasn't summit cause I was about to buy a flat tappet from them
@B.Southards It wasn't Summit but this going on across the board you have to check camshaft lobes for tapper and the lifters for proper crown. It's not just camshafts you have to clean and check oil pumps for small particles of slage from manufacturing. I had a new oil pump quite on me in the first 100 miles luckily I was monitoring it closely and shout it down immediately and I was amazed of what came out the the high flow replacement I got new. There is no Quality Control anymore .
Give peg his leg back
Give peg his leg back
In the future? We shall clone Uncle Tony's, and install them at all High School Automotive shop classes.
Its not that he's some wizard or something. Its just that he explains things in the way folks use too. He's the closest thing to those old fashion Technical videos from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Its just the delivery that I like so much.
Measuring can get technical. A dial indicator would accurately show lobe taper. There are a few things necessary to do that. A pair of matched V blocks and a flat surface plate, dial indicator and base.
Matched v blocks is a bad way to do it. The front bearing surface is always the biggest. So it wont be level in matched blocks. Measure it in a lathe, the way it is supposed to be done. If you don't have a lathe, take it somewhere they know what they are doing. "Close enough", is why they fail, and v blocks are not close enough...
@@shvrdavid gauge blocks
Haha is it true you stole pegs wooden leg ? Lol
Did you really still zip ties wooden leg ?
Where did you put Peg’s leg?
He stole @ziptiesandbiasplies wooden leg
Old peg came to the US of A and just everyone treated him like family and this guy stole and took a shit in he suitcase
Good recovery brother man. It's a technical world out there. If you don't trim the hair on a gnat's ass you didn't give it a real haircut.
Protip, you will NEVER make oil better than what you can buy off the rack by pouring random additives in it. Miscibility aside there's way more going on in there than "more ZDDP more better". If you insist on high zinc oil or whatever just buy it.
Yes. Because most modern off the shelf oils have a lot of detergents that will clean off the protective layer of zddp and other wear agents. I like the lucas classic car oil
@@Terminxman What I'm getting at is stuff like how past a certain point too much ZDDP (up around 1600+ ppm IIRC) it actually creates wear problems, there is a sweet spot around 800-1200. There is also nothing magical about ZDDP, there are other extreme pressure anti wear additives in engine oil, some of which don't even show up on a basic oil analysis. Tribology is a big complicated field, you will struggle to outsmart the engineers.
@@Broken_Yugo I've thought about this myself, considering there are engines with flat tappets that ran in production until almost the 2000s and no one was adding zinc to their oil or using anything special. But, even mobil 1 synthetic has about 800 ppm of zddp. I'm not sure that's what I'd run in a classic engine.
@@Terminxman John Deere still builds some of their engines with flat tappet cams today. The popular Cummins pickup 5.9-6.7 was flat tappet as well till 2020. Failures in them are like next to nothing and their tappets actually are flat they have no crown only the cam is tapered to promote rotation.
@@Terminxman another thing that now comes to mind along those lines. Last I knew (well into API SN oil) GM would sell you flat tappet 350 small block crate motors up to like 400hp, with a warranty. The instructions did stress the usual cam break in procedure, but made zero specification to oil beyond "high quality 10w30". That tells me it's totally possible to build a flat tappet motor and break it in with ordinary contemporary oil, and a motor built to mass manufacturing standards at that.
Where's the peg leg? haha
One way to measure the lobe taper is to put the camshaft on V blocks and use a dial test indicator ( not a dial indicator, they are different) mounted to a surface gage base. Use these tools on a surface plate, or even a table saw would do.
You could easily measure the lobe taper to within .0005 which is within the accuracy needed.
Likely need to put the cam between centers, due to cam bearing journals being different diameters, but yeah, surface plare and a height gage would be great!
@@rickinmi height gauge isn't the right tool for run out or anything similar. The last-word type indicator Gary mentions is the tool.
It’s not like the additives don’t “mix.” The high detergents in off the shelf oils clean the zddp and other deposits off of the surfaces which you don’t want
Very different animal, but I adjusted my Weber 38 in my Jeep 258 (custom sized Aux Vent and hand ground Em tubes), I got to a richer mixture (from about 16 to 12.25) for max TQ. And my engine Temps dropped by about 5 degrees and stayed more consistent. Kinda cool, you read about stuff like Thermal Barriers, but it's awesome to actually see it!!
On the lifter subject, I saw this. On the Chevrolet Performance, or AC Delco web site it said....for proper camshaft and lifter function...you should get 45 degrees rotation minimum on the lifter...for every two crankshaft rotations. I have seen this on flat tappet lifters, they rotate as the lifter rises...I think. But I never gave the amount or crank revolutions a number as I watched.
This was noticed as I primed the oil system, and rotated the crank, looking for oil to flow out each push rod. I will be paying more attention on next build. 4 what it's worth.
This is why I use roller cams.
I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are on that Koenigsegg Freevalve system. Air actuated valvetrain.
25 years ago, I had a cylinder head remanufactured for a Ford Escort. 3000 miles later, loud lifter clacking and loss of oil pressure. Turns out, they resurfaced the lifters when they rebuilt the head. The lifter foot ground all the way through to the inner bore. All that metal went through my engine. I was a pissed off fellow. Resurfaced lifters are a thing especially with large engine remanufacturers. Powell machine has a great video on this problem.
I've had shavings in a rebuilt motor too, good thing they were noticed before running. My dad had a guy put the wrong head on a car once. Some people man.
First of all, I recommend a NON DETERGENT oil for break in, along with a ZDDP additive. The additive will work much better with a non detergent oil. Most of this oil thing is the EPAs fault to begin with. I have built so many engines using STP oil treatment (back when it came in a can instead of a plastic bottle) as an assembly lube, and common engine oil, and had no problems. The cam/lifter problem seems to be a combination of bad EPA oil and improperly manufactured cams and lifters.
I have never used stainless steel rings. Not even in engines built for a combination of street/strip use. I believe Finnegans Hemi has a rigged up EFI system, designed to look like an old Hilborn system (I kind of lost track of things when he and David Freiburger split up) I have never built or even owned an engine that was not carbureted. IMO, EFI is another EPA boondoggle (talk about alphabet soup)
conceptually efi isn't an epa boondoggle and it can be more versatile and better all around. if you make an efi system to replace the american emissions regulations carbs for high displacement cars ran at low power for some genius reason then it's a boondoggle, being a system to replace crap with a system that replicates crap.
efi is better than carbs; although I use cut down carbs, so just the throttle body, for propane builds.
So many cam/ lifter videos, they deserve their own channel!l
Send peg a camshaft so he han make a new leg with it
Muscle Car Solutions is a great guy. He has went out of his way to help me through the comments more then a couple of times
same dude helped me sort out a stupid carb problem
@@pacbrian3809 Right! That man is a saint.
He is, even emailed with me directly on some carb questions I had.
How much for Peg's leg?
🤦♂️ I feel so dejected right now, 🤷♂️ can I ever trust an UTG vid again! 😳🤔 😝 Naw good stuff 😂 ✌️🤙
Very informative but still find it very hard to believe there are companies remanufacturing old used lifters. To get any volume to do such a thing companies would require a core exchange system and no one is doing it. Also how could they cost effectively resurface and remachine a lifter. After googling it to death found one company (Mizpah Precision) that works on a core exchange program for remanufactured automotive lifters on specific vehicles. So the chances of ordering remanufactured lifters online or at your automotive parts store without knowing it is a non issue. However the taper issue with new cams and crown issue with new lifters that is an issue no question about it.
No core exchange necessary at all. Tens of thousands of engines are disassembled and recycled in one form or another every day, all over the world.
I never talked about it on this channel, but the common practice back in the day was to resurface lifters on your own using nothing but fine emery cloth. The cloth would lay flat on the bench, and you would take each lifter and run its face over the emery cloth in a figure 8 pattern several times. I know it sounds crazy in todays world, but it was a normal thing to do, just like pouring your own bearings from babbitt and shaping it with a knife.
They probably get the cores from engine remanufacturing companies because of volume. You'd be surprised at what foreign companies will do for $$ and the ships go back over there cheap because we don't make anything here they need. They give the 10yo kids 25¢ an hr to disassemble and inspect the lifters. Then they throw them in a machine to grind the bottom, (maybe) clean it slap it back together toss it in a white box and sell it on eBay.
@@UncleTonysGarage
That answer is how Uncle Tony "Tells you how old he is without actually telling you his age."
👍😁
(Edit to add, I actually remember watching both those procedures growing up.)
🙄🤣👍
you get the cores for basically _free_. why you'd need a core exchange system for that if you can get the customer to buy the core outright?
edit: as to how, you have low paid workforce who doesn't care throw them in a cleaner, then in a jig, run it and throw it in a box.
@@UncleTonysGarage Thanks for responding. I had tried to research who is remanufacturing automotive lifters and only found one "Mizpah Precision". They have a core exchange program and only make lifters for specific engines. So are you implying that some major lifter suppliers are selling remanufactured lifters as new? If this is so would be good to expose the supplier.
You measured diameter, whereas radius is required for taper calcs.
Another way to look at it is that you measured two tapers, one on each side added together.
Excellent 'clarification' of your earlier comments Tony. Many of us knew what you meant first time, but fair enough to elaborate on it. 👍
I'm not one to chase that last half a horsepower at all costs, my 'quick' street engines run plain black cast rings. They do the job fine, and reliably as per your words "for your application".
Great job Tony.
I built my friends 429 FORD 28 YEARS ago...585 lift Hyd Cam...IRON RING....IT HAS 10,000 miles on it SO far....driven every summer since ....just had to freshen up the C-6 trans last winter ,1972 TORINO fast back...poor fuel economy for sure...it runs like day one....
Give peg his leg back
I never had cam issues...but the last cam I swapped was in 2004. I'm about to pull the trigger on a '66 Chevy with a transplanted 350 and a cam change might be on my list. I'm a bit nervous. Used to be 1-2-3 have a nice day.
HOWdy U-T-G, ...
CAMSHAFT Premature DEATH
Metallurgy AUTOPSY
Thanks
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
Question UTG, What are your thoughts on grooving the lifter bore to provide positive oil to the leading edge of the cam on flat tappet cams? Comp makes a tool for this now (5003, 5005, 5007).
Once again, very interesting, very informative. This is the kinda stuff you just don't really get anywhere else. A good use of my 15 minutes of time. Thanks UT.
If you like this video you should definitely watch Muscle Car Solutions video. I like Tony but anytime I have a question on something he covers I have to count on someone in the comments clarifying. Over at Muscle Car Solutions the guy making the videos will answer whatever questions you have. He has helped me out multiple times. Can't say enough good things about him.
@@BPattB yes your right going to check out thanks been asking him he's input on motor things for while i do like tony but he just won't get back on recommendations 👍
I have been looking for a video that showed exactly how the slope of the cam lobe and the crown radius of the lifter imparts the spin to the lifter.
This is something my father showed me, and motor manuals used to illustrate.
Take two lifters and place them in contact crown to crown and you will clearly see the radius of those lifters. And if I am remembering correctly that radius is a 30-inch radius.
When seated onto the cam lobe the contact point is off center due to the slope of the cam lobe. That off center contact is what imparts the spin to the lifter. This is vital for longevity as this creates a rolling contact point. Throw in a film of oil and "VIOLA" (as the French would say) you can get 100K + miles easily as opposed to 5k without rotation (if you're lucky)
There is a 57 Chrysler imperial down the road from us for sale and it has a 392 Firepower Hemi and it turns over so it’s probably a good engine.
I would like to point out: Computer simulations of the air/fuel mixture going through a running engine are cool and all, but they do not explain the cooling effects of un-burned fuel in cylinder and what can happen under certain conditions. This channel is so awesome :)
Just watched an interview with Clay Smith Cam's and they said "Their cams are ground with .004 taper" possibly they are measuring like you did. Delta cams in Tacoma, WA will reface lifters. They have been around for as long as I can remember. They are a cam regrinder.
He was referring to DD speed shop regarding the big block cam failure not you.
Top fuel dragsters ingest a fuel air mixture that is so wet that it very nearly causes hydraulic lock during the compression stage.
That is when you use stainless rings
and remember these engines are rebuilt every run
I personally have reconditioned solid lifters! VW shop I did my engine reconditioner apprenticeship. We would put a short piece of wooden broom handle in their top end and grind them on the tip dressing end of a valve grinder with a one degree angle to give it its crown.
I watched his video. Good video. But unwise for him to go up against you. Your a smart cookie
You need to use some V blocks and a height gauge or dial indicator to measure that taper properly. A pair of calipers aren't going get get you good measurements.
Great information brother cuz I have a few engines I need to rebuild.
those stainless steel pistons must be super heavy and quite expensive ,probably best left as stuff for trim lol
Tony lightens them with a step drill.
Uncle Tony you have given me some kind of sickness! All day every day damn near the only thing on my mind is something involving my 289 build or cars or sourcing parts or learning this stuff or figuring out how to make this a lifestyle. Checking marketplace every chance I get, sudden bouts of browsing crusty forum posts from the early 2000's to see if a less than ideal part will fit, imagining myself this summer plowing though gears behind that 289 in the 66' Comet I'm putting together, I'm obsessed with the challenge of doing this stuff as a piss poor college student!
You're on the path to living the best life, my friend. I feel honored to have contributed to it.
I had a 64 comet with a hopped up 289. Hope it works out they are awesome 👍
I have a 67 Comet Caliente....with the 200 Cid 6. I was going to put a 351 w in it but who has ever seen a 67 like mine in this day and age?
@@chrisbrownjohn6277 200 six is a good engine. I rebuilt a 1970 model out of a Maverick and put it in an 80 Fairmont wagon that had a blown engine. Used the 1980 head after grinding the valves.
@@chrisbrownjohn6277 the 6 cyl stuff is cool, because like you said, you don’t see it. As long as you’re having fun that’s all that matters
Don’t run a stainless ring in your cruiser. If you’re running a top fuel funny car , dragster go ahead use a stainless steel ring.
The red shirt was really throwing me off, Tony. I thought you got a stand in. 😂
I'm fixing to get all that rain down here in Canton GA. Thanks tony lol
More great knowledge from a master Mechanic. Thanks Tony!
You can measure it on a surface plate with a dial indicator very easy
Yeah taper shouldnt be that hard to measure....I guess my question is why its that hard to grind a lobe with a taper. Im not really a grind hand by any means.
I do remember reading somewhere decades ago that lifters are ground on a 22ft radius
I thought in order for a zinc additive to work it needs to be used with a non-deturgent motor oil. I think this is explained in a My vintage iron video.
No sir, it works just fine I’m off the shelf oil to create a break in blend
The Lord of the Rings lives on!
The rings of power!
love it !!!
Uncle Tony were you a captain or just a soldier??
A height gauge or gauge blocks on a flat plate would allow you to use a feeler gauge to determine the taper.
Haha Tony's on damage control, I love it lol😜
He'll have do one about his comments on the oil and additive next. He clearly doesn't have enough knowledge about how oils/additive work based on what he said.
That's it. From now on only rollers.....
I think jc Whitney has sold reconditioned lifters at some time and they sold things know elses did.....peace....
Last time I bought something off JC Whitney the UPS man crushed the box and mashed the head gasket. I just bought a new one locally. Around 1993.?
Your Eyes are brown..Got it
Very interesting 🤔 topic 👍
Give pegs leg back bro not cool
Informative as usual.
Good morning Tony.....I totally agree with you on the fact that Old School Stuff Works....check out FORD BOSS ME ...Channel ,on all of the problems on the 1.5 ECOBOOST...ITS a MODERN TECH MOTOR...LOL
OUTASANDING VIDEO !
Somebody needs a leg
Great Video Tony... confirming what muscle car solutions had on his video.... good job!!!
At 170,000 miles I must be still breaking in my 2012 Mazda3 Skyactive because I use a half bottle of STP every oil change. Doesn't use any oil and is quieter than it was brand new.
Don't even trust the cam or lifters to be in spec from any cam maker. Measure or have measured the taper of the cam and the crown of the lifters. If they aren't perfert send them back or get them corrected. No amount of proper procedure can correct for poor machining specs.
Tony said it himself when the comp cam bearing journals were ground too big. You have to check everything. That means EVERYTHING.
Best detail and correction of cams and lifters I've seen:
ruclips.net/video/DMFikj-TAqo/видео.html&feature=shares
Check out Powell Machine inc. channel here on RUclips. This gentleman KNOWS all about lifters and camshafts! He refaces lifters and grinds his own cams, has videos checking Rockwell hardness on lifters and camshafts, grinding lifters and cams! Check them out!
Dan from DD Speedshop will be critiquing this episode entitled 'Premature camshaft death' questioning why he wasn"t mentioned in dispatches.😁
I thought the guy in the video was dumping on DD in Winnipeg. Sorta general comments that he didn’t do the break in correctly for the big block Biscayne.
How dare you!!!!
I'm watching cam/lifters, closer than my old asses bowel movements!!! We are in trouble!!! Edit. I'm using "Eastwood" zinc oil additive. And have for years. In single cylinder small engines, and anything with a flat tappet cam. Old, new, or ugly.
Mike Finnegan. " I don't always forget to add gas to my 100k hemi but when I do? I have a top fuel team repair it while I wait" Mike Finnegan 🤣
Back in the late 80s maybe mid 80s I can’t remember Charles and Albert had a zero gap ring set. The second ring had a step and you had to end gap. She had to check the top and bottom of the ring that ring made an engine gain 15 hp just changing the ring that’s the way to go plus the scrapes well it’s got a little taper to the face and help scrape the oil down. Anyway this is six in a row jim yeah I’m that guy who’s got that 91 dodge three-quarter ton with six and a row under the hood. All right Tony good video always learn something from you all right oh by the way a ring we always used to use speed pro Molly ring the top ring barrel faced real good seal plus it’s nice to the cylinder wall.
Bought a JEGS flat tappet cam and lifters - ran for about 250 miles and had to adjust the rockers 2-3 times. Pulled it out (not flat yet) and installed a hydraulic roller cam by Howards. Had to change springs, pin my rocker studs, cam button, new distributer gear and roller tipped rockers. Expensive upgrade for someone on a fixed income. That's why I went with the cheap Jegs cam in the first place. Yes, I broke it in properly - it was just junk material.
SRC Automotive in Springfield MO remans the lifters and installs them in their reman engines. I know this because I worked in the lifter room for over a year. I disassembled and reassembled a "ton" of lifters. Mostly GM The springs and balls were replaced with new and as far as I know customers had no complaints.
Well, when you say the lifter failure issue is because lifters are being reconditioned and everyone is having issues with all manufacturers. It's implied that you are saying all suppliers are doing this. If I remember correctly, you did specifically say it's a problem across the board.
I think he was talking about that Matt mews guy because he is the one that took his video down.
Hello uncle tony. Ive been watching you for a while now. I just need help on my 68 slant six valiant. Im facing an issue where the carb is flooding on cold start and the car starts but it dies if i dont hold the pedal. What could it be? Thanks for teaching me so much
Yea the tapered cam does it all the time especially on mopar.If you have lathe just chuck the cam in it with the centre stop on so it don't wobble select low operating speed on the lathe spray wd40 on cam lobe for cutting lube hold the flat ratstail file 2 -3 degrees sort like Tony's hair from front to back thin to thick anyway back to the task at hand what you do is follow the motion of the cam loble so you have it even at 2-3 degrees be patient you will see it happening. Clean lobe take a measure once you have done all lobes take out of the lathe give it a really good clean.The next step is to hang it up with some wire bush some high zink oil onto the lobes ,now next you will have to harden the cam using a blow torch propane gently heat up each lobe moving onto the next one once a the smoke has gone from the cam you un hook the cam and from where it is hanging and cool it down under a running tap,the more pressure the tap has the faster the cam will work. Now the final stage is to dry cam hang it back up spray the the cam with extra zinc additive Satan black paint oh yea don't forget to mask up the bearing journals too, you don't want them black or coated. Ready for fitting to your mopar or if you like put it into a cam box and send it to Tony to test.
I watched the same video, as I commented, I personally never had these issues 20 years ago, now I’m not taking about high performance engines just regular daily driver engines
Wouldn't stainless steel rings take a lot longer to break in, being that they're made of metal of which is dissimilar to the cast-iron cylinder walls of which they ride on? In other applications, a dissimilar metal is needed for producing the least amount of friction between moving parts. That's why valve guides are cast in bronze and engine bearings cast in a blend of tin and lead
I'm running a used rpm cam with some accidentally mixed up lifters, going on two years now, and I'm not nice to it.
The thing is which side of the lobe is the taper. Cause it look like it's on the base circle not the lobe. Then you say the lifter has a crown which would promote lifter spin on lobe. So it takes both crown and taper. Maybe these failed cams are missing one or both.?? Look at the ware pattern on that cam in front of you.
I know this channel is for the home-gamer
But Ive seen guys send out brand new lifters to have a 2 degree dome machined on the face to ensure plenty of spin and correct wear…….