I do hvac and deal with big hp motors with 1-2 inch shafts if the key way is grinded or anything the remaining material will break under load and free spin over the shaft and chew it up
Old school way of doing it honestly. Thats also why i drilled my 03 cobra cams and upsized to .500“ arp studs over the 12mm. you can then torque way higher. They didnt move.
I'll state this for those that don't know. When you mil your heads, change head gasket thickness, or even purchase custom cams, there is almost always going to be some variance in cam to gear, gear to chain timing. Even with NSR cams, everyone's cylinder heads have a variance in deck thickness via different machine shops milling different amounts off to get them flat. If you don't account for that via a thicker head gasket. That variance will change the cam degree slightly because it's effectively decreasing the timing chain length on the fixed chain guild side. Thus allowing the cam gear to rotate backwards from that slack. I understand there is a desire to correct this and make the timing perfect, because that's who I am also. That said grinding the keyway until it's toothpick thin... well that's not the right call....
Im new to a lot of this stuff. I’d appreciate any advice you have or hopefully Alex if he sees this. I had a bolt dropped in a motor by a shop and had to have the head resurfaced/new short block and the new shop I had fix the issues never mentioned any of this when I had my head resurfaced. I put the oem head gaskets back in my 2019 5.0. Car runs phenomenal once running and hurt a lot of feelings with it but I have these crazy long start ups like 30 seconds or so no matter the weather on e85 do you think it may be a culprit or worth tearing into? I cant figure out the long start up issue. Im tuned by lund and trust they aren’t the reason.
@@2baldtires444 If you have stock cams and cam phasers you'll be fine, even if you didn't you'd still be fine. What I'm talking about is more for Fixed Cam timing like on the 2v 4.6, GT500 and 99-04 cobra. Depending on the amount milled off you're heads we are talking maybe 0.5* or less cam angle change from stock. You won't notice a difference and I wouldn't be worried about it at all. If you have constant long starts I'd look at fuel pressure during cranking. Do you have a return style fuel system? If so how is it set up as far as parallel or in series, regulated before or after the rails? Does it have a one way or check valve in line if it's a return style, if so where in the system is it located? What injectors do you have? Try going key on for 3 seconds back off and right back on for another 3 seconds two or three times before starting and see if that helps at all. If it does then your fuel system is probably draining as it sits. That said 30 seconds is a long time even for a drained rail.... Get a data log of it happening and send it to Lund to see if they can help you figure it out. Sometimes aftermarket injectors have a slower than advertised response during cranking because of the lower voltage. Meaning your injector could be told by the PCM to open for X amount of time to let in X amount of fuel. But if that injector opening response is so slow the injector may never even open, thus not allowing any or very little fuel to be injected causing a long crank. Even changing your battery could help this, because it would maintain higher voltage during cranking.
If he messed that up, what else did he mess up? If it were me, I'd be tearing it all down and verifying EVERYTHING. All the way down to ring gap. Call me a window licker if you want, but when you see sketchy workmanship, you have to question every other aspect of the build. When you want to make that much power, its got to be PERFECT, not cobbled together. That's how built engines end up not lasting more than a couple thousand miles. You can't rush or half ass perfection. As much as you paid, it should be perfect.
Currently dealing with a similar situation with my powerstroke Diesel engine’s. at this point I’m educating myself and preparing to hopefully start assembling a motor myself by the end of the year👍🏽
Thank you, Alex. Like my ex, I still love my 4.6 4V even though it treated me bad... I'm a mod motor simp. Now I have more knowledge when I get some needed motor work.
Even if dude gives a full refund. That could be argued its only because of the status you have, a commoner would most likely never get the same response. But that said i do hope he reconciles it with you.
I can tell you this is definitely true. This same builder got me in 2022. I ended up having to send the motor to TKM in 2023, and they sorted the disaster of a build out. It has been great so far, but I am out A LOT of money from that original build.
If this guy knew who Alex was why would he screw him in the first place let alone give him a refund after getting fu*ked. I'm looking to get a engine built and this whole situation has actually stalled my situation bc I feel like I have to do a complete background on the guy I'm thinking about having my engine built by
I’m no engine builder. I’m surprised that this is a common practice among engine builders to hack cam gears and grind the shit out of the key way tooth to gain a couple of degrees instead of properly replacing hardware!! At least if this stupid practice is common due to cost reasons, a reputable builder would put down the option to his customer 1) Do it properly and pay an additional 1500-2500 or 2) Do it the cheap way and be responsible for the consequences!! I’m out of words. Thank you Alex for transferring this knowledge to us.
lol thats so wild about that cam gear lol. The breadman strikes again. One view it looks like the entire camahaft is bent. Dude baked in the VCT to the cam sprocket hahaha
I know it seems sketchy but I do believe doing that to the cam gears is common practice to degree 4v cams. That key is mainly for stock lining up when assembling at ford. Adjustable timing set would be optimal. But The bolt that holds those timing gears clamp enough that it will never move… Eitherway that guy did not do a good job and i would not trust anything.
Npw im no engine builder, how do u measure it, make a rotation then measure again and come up with same number with that much play? What happens when u send it to 7k rpm under load and let off? Whats it do? Cmon , i cant believe someone did this
It’s like you said though. It seems to be a widely accepted way of degree’ing them. If only they would tig the backside to build the key back up and file fit it to the cam.
Grinding on keys and cams to degree them IS NOT CORRECT WAY and HE KNEW BETTER but just got away with it. Was it enough to cause valve problem don't know not without checking it. It matter but modifying of keys way and key one big no no. This engine need them to be tight fit. There are engines that have no keys but they use far bigger bolt to RETAIN them in place. You do have a legal leg to stand on and why because there is no procedure from ford or anyone else showing this to grind parts. I've been through this before with big class 8 Cummins ISX 15 liter their cams are taper fit with green loc-tite. This owner had small mom and pop shop overhaul his engine. Their tech there says don't need loc-tite because early Cummins IXS engines didn't have it and he's never had a problem. He's right about early engines but Cummins was seeing issue and CHANGED the procedure. Dam right owner sued them 30,000 dollars overhaul down the drain and to replace engine was 45,000 dollars. When it spun the cam gear on the cam it bent valves, bent the pistons and broke the liners which got into where liner sits in the block. They tried also I never had problem before said that in court that didn't make judge happy either. He won because Cummins procedure shows this must be done in big red highlighted warning.
I degreed my locked coyote cams in and after seeing how much timing changes with barely moving the gear..I'd bet that much movement is double digit in timing swing..
Not going to lie I have a 5.8 right now being built with custom cams. I had no idea about the cam gear issue until your videos….. I’m going to call the builder and tell him to use the adjustable gears if he hasn’t already
The large sprocket is on the exhaust cams. Which drives over to the intake cams. Intake and exhaust are linked together along with a tensioner. I have heard of guys doing that. Seemed skecthy to me as well.
The #1 thing you missed is this:What was the cam timing? It's a big variable that affects piston to valve clearance. If there was advance ground into the cams then more was added, it may explain whacking a piston. I'm betting you're doing valves...... The galling where the cam gears went was weird as well. Some companies actually make offset keys, not sure if they exist for a 5.4/5.8. Absolutely not saying that's the right way to go but they exist and would at least keep things from moving although at the expense of strength. Over all though, I'd really wonder how much power would be left on the table going straight up.
The guy must of had a bad day but seems they must of F up like that but not a custom sprocket just thanks for the post I will build my own luckily I can.
Alex, you should take that company that ground down those keys to court or at least report them to the BBB. That’s some BS they only do that shit on old 4.6 four valve motors.
Apples and Oranges but I built F16 engines for a number of years. You’re telling me that 4V builders think a rotating part is only held in place solely by friction with no locking mechanism to keep it from moving? There isn’t a rotating part I worked with that didn’t have an extremely tight tolerance locking feature. And if it didn’t have a built-in locking feature, parts get lock-wired to maintain torque spec through vibration during operation.
I'm glad you got them. Unfortunately this is what most of us have gone through. You already know a "Local" tuner in West Palm cost me over 10k and the fat ass that tuned my car, whom blew it up (rhymes with Shoe maker) said it was some how my fault. Mean while the car ran has ran perfectly with a Lund tune. I hope you get your money back!@YDBT4LIFE
To be fair.... a lot of engines don't have any keyway or dowel to hold the sprockets in place. If you depend on the keyway it will become a wear point. The fastener provides the clamping force required to hold it. My opinion.
I’m only 10 mins in. My grandma used to say bad things sometimes happen for a reason. Be glad the build was shit and you discovered that. Imagine if it was “good enough” to make the power you were expecting and that key broke at 6500rpms. That would have been catastrophic and ruing the whole engine.
It’s not common practice however I have seen off-set keys on the cam sprocket never on the crank side. Never allow any slop ever or it will become a ticking time bomb. Thank you for the image you posted.
@@crownvictorialifestyle4421 you must not pay much attention, he says all the time his gen 3 had issues and he would get a gen 2 if he had to do it again. He bashes ford constantly, the issue with this specific 5.8 is the fact he paid 10k for mostly recycled parts in a built motor. It’s also a “custom built engine” as opposed to a Motor from the factory that isn’t even supposed to be as strong as it is.
Alex You doing well with your peasant chats. Im learning more every-time especially about my GT500 guess I’ve have been lucky for the most part. I’ve been happy just being one second faster than the book at Ford says it will do. Mine almost stock now. You are doing very well with your adventures. I understand how you feel almost have to limit work to just shops you know personally. Wish I was closer to Lund. Find myself wanting to get comfortable with vehicle tuning and l logging. I may have to become a patron one of these days. Right now I’m a cheap bastard. I’m an old guy what I know is from the 70’s PCM/ECM are new to me . I have 2018 F150 5.0 XLT and old 2008 GT500 got it because I got a deal on it. I’m watching just in case I decide to go faster. Thanks again
I am shocked to hear that you are getting any of your old parts back from this builder. I was straight up told that all my old parts were going in the scrap bin, and I would have no say in the matter otherwise. This included a $1000 pair of Accufab billet secondary chain tensioners!!!!!
Oh, my F'in G!! Those cam gears look like ass! I have the up most respect for you, Alex! I know people who would put a hit out on homeboy! This shit is why I don't want anyone touching my Coyote.
@@YDBT4LIFE for alignment, just like most press fit cogs. I would also like to believe that if it depends on the key for anything but alignment, it would have a pin or at least a set screw.
Homeboy aka Cousin Pookie needs to give you your money back. This is the most bubba'd up bullshit I've ever seen. If you need your cams to be degreed, then you need the right parts, not just modify it and be all like "good nuff!" This guy caused you all of this headache with pure bubba engineering. He basically made your cam gears into half assed cam phasers, destroyed your cams, and cam gears, all because he didn't want to order the right parts.
Lots of engines use crankshaft and camshaft sprockets and spin freely on the cams and crank with no taper or press fit. On those engines, friction between the sprockets and the components they are bolted against is the only thing keeping the engine in time. Knowing that this type of design exists, I can understand why some people would feel comfortable shaving the key or keyway as they might assume it is only there to make setting the timing easier. Unfortunately, this assumption is very unsafe, and there are plenty of engines where people upgrade to dual keyways or oversized keyways because the key does help to hold everything in place even after the bolts are properly tightened and wear on the keyways prove it.
Mazda L series/Ford duratec 4cyl. All of their 2.0, 2.3, 2.5 turbo, ecoboost and NA in mazda3, ford focus, ST, RS and escapes etc. dont't have any keyways or dowels on cams AND crank. There are special tools to align them. But one important detail is that they use friction washers and you must install them absolutely clean. If you get oil on them, you run the risk of slippage@@drifterwannab
I know a guy who just had a 4.6 4v built and it blew head gaskets in the dyno and was already smoking excessively on the break in. Engine builder swore it was ok. While pulling heads found most of the heads nuts were loose and others had negative torque. I think he is crazy because he is just doing head gaskets and proper torquing. I think he should tear down the whole motor and verify everything is good before blowing the whole motor.
I know you’ve touched on this multiple times. I know you don’t want to do it and it SUCKS… But with all your time you’ve dumped in, the $4-5k you already have in valvetrain/head work… I’d have him tear down and reassemble the bottom end… After seeing the things you have found already I’d be worried if KEITH can even gap a ring correctly… maybe he filed the rings with the same precision of the wood drift cam key hack job 🙄. 🤞🤞🤞
Damn comparing the 5.8 trinity to old cobra engines is retarted might aswell compare it to a flathead. There's a reason engines change and advance over time
I wld spread his name to everyone and try to make sure this never happens to anyone else. This literally scares the shit out of me since I need a motor built. Its just a sbf stock block, stroker build and I kno its not a 4v but your situation has me super nervous
I bought a car with a 4v that shop you are talking about built. All I asked him was what oil and weight to use. He would not answer me and said i cant tell you. Total hacker!
What kind of Hackery Voodoo Magic did that engine builder think he was doing? Or Did he just think he was gonna get away with it??? I wonder how many other people he's done this shit work to... Get your money back if he doesn't put him on Blast
people have filed key ways for these motors for years. the key way is only required for installation period. the BOLT is what keeps the gear from moving. NOT the key way lmao. the secondary gear isn’t a 10mm secondary gear, that’s primary. that’s not what caused your “failure”. you saw a method that was done to your motor, that has nothing to do with your failure.
Holy shit , im fucking speechless looking at that gear . You must be fucking livid
Understatement
I do hvac and deal with big hp motors with 1-2 inch shafts if the key way is grinded or anything the remaining material will break under load and free spin over the shaft and chew it up
great show ! i have a gen 2, and i wish they still made the crate engine for gen 2. rather have that as ins than getting an engine builder.
Old school way of doing it honestly. Thats also why i drilled my 03 cobra cams and upsized to .500“ arp studs over the 12mm. you can then torque way higher. They didnt move.
I'll state this for those that don't know. When you mil your heads, change head gasket thickness, or even purchase custom cams, there is almost always going to be some variance in cam to gear, gear to chain timing. Even with NSR cams, everyone's cylinder heads have a variance in deck thickness via different machine shops milling different amounts off to get them flat. If you don't account for that via a thicker head gasket. That variance will change the cam degree slightly because it's effectively decreasing the timing chain length on the fixed chain guild side. Thus allowing the cam gear to rotate backwards from that slack. I understand there is a desire to correct this and make the timing perfect, because that's who I am also. That said grinding the keyway until it's toothpick thin... well that's not the right call....
Don't let common sense get in the way of 4v motor builders.
Im new to a lot of this stuff. I’d appreciate any advice you have or hopefully Alex if he sees this. I had a bolt dropped in a motor by a shop and had to have the head resurfaced/new short block and the new shop I had fix the issues never mentioned any of this when I had my head resurfaced. I put the oem head gaskets back in my 2019 5.0. Car runs phenomenal once running and hurt a lot of feelings with it but I have these crazy long start ups like 30 seconds or so no matter the weather on e85 do you think it may be a culprit or worth tearing into? I cant figure out the long start up issue. Im tuned by lund and trust they aren’t the reason.
@@2baldtires444 If you have stock cams and cam phasers you'll be fine, even if you didn't you'd still be fine. What I'm talking about is more for Fixed Cam timing like on the 2v 4.6, GT500 and 99-04 cobra. Depending on the amount milled off you're heads we are talking maybe 0.5* or less cam angle change from stock. You won't notice a difference and I wouldn't be worried about it at all. If you have constant long starts I'd look at fuel pressure during cranking. Do you have a return style fuel system? If so how is it set up as far as parallel or in series, regulated before or after the rails? Does it have a one way or check valve in line if it's a return style, if so where in the system is it located? What injectors do you have? Try going key on for 3 seconds back off and right back on for another 3 seconds two or three times before starting and see if that helps at all. If it does then your fuel system is probably draining as it sits. That said 30 seconds is a long time even for a drained rail.... Get a data log of it happening and send it to Lund to see if they can help you figure it out. Sometimes aftermarket injectors have a slower than advertised response during cranking because of the lower voltage. Meaning your injector could be told by the PCM to open for X amount of time to let in X amount of fuel. But if that injector opening response is so slow the injector may never even open, thus not allowing any or very little fuel to be injected causing a long crank. Even changing your battery could help this, because it would maintain higher voltage during cranking.
You might have the fastest stick GT500 with stock width keyways after this is all said and done. #microrecord
😂😂😂
If he messed that up, what else did he mess up? If it were me, I'd be tearing it all down and verifying EVERYTHING. All the way down to ring gap. Call me a window licker if you want, but when you see sketchy workmanship, you have to question every other aspect of the build. When you want to make that much power, its got to be PERFECT, not cobbled together. That's how built engines end up not lasting more than a couple thousand miles. You can't rush or half ass perfection. As much as you paid, it should be perfect.
No sir...you are 💯 correct. I've had the bottom end looked at.
Currently dealing with a similar situation with my powerstroke Diesel engine’s. at this point I’m educating myself and preparing to hopefully start assembling a motor myself by the end of the year👍🏽
Thank you, Alex. Like my ex, I still love my 4.6 4V even though it treated me bad... I'm a mod motor simp. Now I have more knowledge when I get some needed motor work.
Even if dude gives a full refund. That could be argued its only because of the status you have, a commoner would most likely never get the same response. But that said i do hope he reconciles it with you.
I agree.
I can tell you this is definitely true. This same builder got me in 2022.
I ended up having to send the motor to TKM in 2023, and they sorted the disaster of a build out. It has been great so far, but I am out A LOT of money from that original build.
@@bobbygrasch732who is this builder? 🤔
@@g8r5oh10one would WONDER lol
If this guy knew who Alex was why would he screw him in the first place let alone give him a refund after getting fu*ked. I'm looking to get a engine built and this whole situation has actually stalled my situation bc I feel like I have to do a complete background on the guy I'm thinking about having my engine built by
Thank you for the info. I was going to have my gen1 built, but now I am going aluminator. Thanks for saving me a headache.
You should make a shirt with a die grinder that says extra adjustment
I’m no engine builder. I’m surprised that this is a common practice among engine builders to hack cam gears and grind the shit out of the key way tooth to gain a couple of degrees instead of properly replacing hardware!!
At least if this stupid practice is common due to cost reasons, a reputable builder would put down the option to his customer 1) Do it properly and pay an additional 1500-2500 or 2) Do it the cheap way and be responsible for the consequences!!
I’m out of words. Thank you Alex for transferring this knowledge to us.
lol thats so wild about that cam gear lol. The breadman strikes again. One view it looks like the entire camahaft is bent. Dude baked in the VCT to the cam sprocket hahaha
Was told to grind the key ways on my cam sprockets when I rebuilt my 4v.. thought that was a really odd thing to do, so I didn’t lol
I know it seems sketchy but I do believe doing that to the cam gears is common practice to degree 4v cams. That key is mainly for stock lining up when assembling at ford. Adjustable timing set would be optimal. But The bolt that holds those timing gears clamp enough that it will never move…
Eitherway that guy did not do a good job and i would not trust anything.
Npw im no engine builder, how do u measure it, make a rotation then measure again and come up with same number with that much play? What happens when u send it to 7k rpm under load and let off? Whats it do? Cmon , i cant believe someone did this
Lmao 15min later Lund mentioned something similar 😂
I love the shit talking and ofc the info I get from you Alex regarding Mustangs to life. Thank you for the weekly content much appreciated!
I just caught it on the rewatch, 80 LRX's in 9 days? You paying attention ro what you missed out on SCT?
I WONDER what RACING engine lLLC built that junk.😮 Good luck getting your GT 500 back up and running soon....
You should name the GT500 ‘Bolivion fade! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
“Grind the key on the gear”
Sounds awful like “hit the MAF” aka hacking around the issue.
All custom ground cams do it too you set the degree in the lobes
Alex just keep it 💯 thats why i fw him 💪🏽
Dammit, my poor self missed the live AGAIN!!!
It’s like you said though. It seems to be a widely accepted way of degree’ing them. If only they would tig the backside to build the key back up and file fit it to the cam.
Grinding on keys and cams to degree them IS NOT CORRECT WAY and HE KNEW BETTER but just got away with it. Was it enough to cause valve problem don't know not without checking it. It matter but modifying of keys way and key one big no no. This engine need them to be tight fit. There are engines that have no keys but they use far bigger bolt to RETAIN them in place. You do have a legal leg to stand on and why because there is no procedure from ford or anyone else showing this to grind parts. I've been through this before with big class 8 Cummins ISX 15 liter their cams are taper fit with green loc-tite. This owner had small mom and pop shop overhaul his engine. Their tech there says don't need loc-tite because early Cummins IXS engines didn't have it and he's never had a problem. He's right about early engines but Cummins was seeing issue and CHANGED the procedure. Dam right owner sued them 30,000 dollars overhaul down the drain and to replace engine was 45,000 dollars. When it spun the cam gear on the cam it bent valves, bent the pistons and broke the liners which got into where liner sits in the block. They tried also I never had problem before said that in court that didn't make judge happy either. He won because Cummins procedure shows this must be done in big red highlighted warning.
That cam that you’re holding up at 1326 I don’t know if it’s just me but it doesn’t look entirely straight it looks slightly bent
I still want a 13/14 gt500, but just to cruise it. I have my GHIG( your favorite color) Boss 302 with a vmp gen 2r for speed
I degreed my locked coyote cams in and after seeing how much timing changes with barely moving the gear..I'd bet that much movement is double digit in timing swing..
Back it the day we use to put a tack weld on it
Not going to lie I have a 5.8 right now being built with custom cams. I had no idea about the cam gear issue until your videos….. I’m going to call the builder and tell him to use the adjustable gears if he hasn’t already
You think that was the clicking noise you and Jake were looking for and listening to?? The gear rocking back and forth?
The large sprocket is on the exhaust cams. Which drives over to the intake cams. Intake and exhaust are linked together along with a tensioner.
I have heard of guys doing that. Seemed skecthy to me as well.
MMR does offer some adjustable sprockets on the timing asemblies.
Would it be better off to just have a good machine shop build a short block, and have someone trusted put the heads cams and chains on separately?
Boy boy owes you $15k PERIOD. Full refund plus extra for your TIME and PROFESSIONALISM for not burying that business.
That would be a dream
If I remember correctly, didn’t the early 4.6 4 V cams only use spacers and bolts. They had no keyways at all.
The #1 thing you missed is this:What was the cam timing? It's a big variable that affects piston to valve clearance. If there was advance ground into the cams then more was added, it may explain whacking a piston. I'm betting you're doing valves......
The galling where the cam gears went was weird as well.
Some companies actually make offset keys, not sure if they exist for a 5.4/5.8. Absolutely not saying that's the right way to go but they exist and would at least keep things from moving although at the expense of strength. Over all though, I'd really wonder how much power would be left on the table going straight up.
If paid 10Gs there better be new proper parts 🚨
The guy must of had a bad day but seems they must of F up like that but not a custom sprocket just thanks for the post I will build my own luckily I can.
Common practice doesn't equal best practice.
Jon Lund should know you use an adjustable solid lash adjuster to degree the cams.
Alex, you should take that company that ground down those keys to court or at least report them to the BBB. That’s some BS they only do that shit on old 4.6 four valve motors.
Random Cam Timing is NOT a performance benefit...
BMW added a key way to their crank pulleys on their new inline 6’s because the pulley would slip…
I will never own one of these cars. Thank you for the knowledge.
This is how it was done when these cars came out till the industry cought up
Aren’t woodruff keys supposed to be held in place by pressure? I have a whole drawer full of them I could’ve sent him if he needed good ones. 🤣🤣
Who was the first guy to think, you know if i just machine the key down...i can get a couple degrees.
Even if this is common practice, Builder should run it by the owner on what he is about to do.
This is all I hear now a days listening to Alex😭😭😭
We're sorry for you Alex, it really sucks.
Maybe you should name the GT 500 “First Blood”. Nothing is over!!!!
Sees milwright grinding keyway to make a gear fit.
"Your box is already out the gate".
"
My jaw dropped as soon as I saw the second cam gear, that’s garbage
Put a 363 pushrod big bore small block with a carb
Apples and Oranges but I built F16 engines for a number of years. You’re telling me that 4V builders think a rotating part is only held in place solely by friction with no locking mechanism to keep it from moving? There isn’t a rotating part I worked with that didn’t have an extremely tight tolerance locking feature. And if it didn’t have a built-in locking feature, parts get lock-wired to maintain torque spec through vibration during operation.
DOCTOR HOUSE in the house
Sprockets keyway may be the reason the valve kissed the piston. That's crazy . (GOOD SHIT ALEX)
I have a 2014 GT500 and I never knew about that grinding down the keyway crap. Now I know and knowing is half the battle
Exactly. The 4v motor builder industry is shit if this is "normal"
Do not forget to ask for your pistons!
Got them back already
I'm glad you got them. Unfortunately this is what most of us have gone through. You already know a "Local" tuner in West Palm cost me over 10k and the fat ass that tuned my car, whom blew it up (rhymes with Shoe maker) said it was some how my fault. Mean while the car ran has ran perfectly with a Lund tune. I hope you get your money back!@YDBT4LIFE
Is that why the piston kissed the valve
To be fair.... a lot of engines don't have any keyway or dowel to hold the sprockets in place. If you depend on the keyway it will become a wear point. The fastener provides the clamping force required to hold it. My opinion.
I wish more people would of seen my wonder bread pile of sht engine.
I see 4 very often LOL.
I’m only 10 mins in. My grandma used to say bad things sometimes happen for a reason. Be glad the build was shit and you discovered that. Imagine if it was “good enough” to make the power you were expecting and that key broke at 6500rpms. That would have been catastrophic and ruing the whole engine.
It’s not common practice however I have seen off-set keys on the cam sprocket never on the crank side. Never allow any slop ever or it will become a ticking time bomb. Thank you for the image you posted.
That 2V, one cam LS seems to be looking better and better😂
All this does is prove the coyotes superiority.
@@crownvictorialifestyle4421 you must not pay much attention, he says all the time his gen 3 had issues and he would get a gen 2 if he had to do it again. He bashes ford constantly, the issue with this specific 5.8 is the fact he paid 10k for mostly recycled parts in a built motor. It’s also a “custom built engine” as opposed to a Motor from the factory that isn’t even supposed to be as strong as it is.
Don’t say too much Alex you will lower the price of my GT500. Or do I need to swap a coyote?
haha i was thinking about that. Hopefully this will educate GT500 owners and not allow key cutting to be acceptable.
Alex You doing well with your
peasant chats. Im learning more every-time especially about my GT500 guess I’ve have been lucky for the most part. I’ve been happy just being one second faster than the book at Ford says it will do. Mine almost stock now. You are doing very well with your adventures. I understand how you feel almost have to limit work to just shops you know personally. Wish I was closer to Lund. Find myself wanting to get comfortable with vehicle tuning and l logging. I may have to become a patron one of these days. Right now I’m a cheap bastard. I’m an old guy what I know is from the 70’s PCM/ECM are new to me . I have 2018 F150 5.0 XLT and old 2008 GT500 got it because I got a deal on it. I’m watching just in case I decide to go faster. Thanks again
How about a give away with them used cams and gears ??? Since you are at kind all week maybe give a way some Lind gear ???
If anyone still goes to bread man after this, they desvere what they get
I am shocked to hear that you are getting any of your old parts back from this builder. I was straight up told that all my old parts were going in the scrap bin, and I would have no say in the matter otherwise. This included a $1000 pair of Accufab billet secondary chain tensioners!!!!!
That is absolute trash. Those parts were your property and you had every right to request them.
Wish i had 10k to blow on my motor.
Peasant poor life.
Bonus room. 🎉🎉
Thankful you posted this before I got a chance to drive an 11-12 as they come down in price
I think the shop was rpg bc sounds like what happened to me when I had to pay them twice to build my 5.2 coyote twice since it knocked on start up
Wonder racing..
U will see all this on older forms
Oh, my F'in G!! Those cam gears look like ass! I have the up most respect for you, Alex! I know people who would put a hit out on homeboy! This shit is why I don't want anyone touching my Coyote.
What is it that you think that key is going to do if the bolt backs out?
The likelihood of it not jumping timing due to a robust key that hasn't been shaven down is high.
Logic and common sense.
@YDBT4LIFE I can assure you that key will sheer right off. Otherwise, it would be splined, press fitted and welded or taper locked.
@@mustangdouche5080 then why are cranks with a press fit double keyed.
@@YDBT4LIFE for alignment, just like most press fit cogs. I would also like to believe that if it depends on the key for anything but alignment, it would have a pin or at least a set screw.
@@mustangdouche5080 incorrect. It's double keyed for redundancy. This is basic 101 high hp engine build stuff. Have a good day.
Should just call the GT500 "Moldy Bread" becaue the "Bread Man" burned his buns on this engine build...
Homeboy aka Cousin Pookie needs to give you your money back. This is the most bubba'd up bullshit I've ever seen. If you need your cams to be degreed, then you need the right parts, not just modify it and be all like "good nuff!" This guy caused you all of this headache with pure bubba engineering. He basically made your cam gears into half assed cam phasers, destroyed your cams, and cam gears, all because he didn't want to order the right parts.
Could make a stepped key
Could broach a new slot
Could buy adjustable sprocket
Choose to spend two hours of labour to do this!
You have issues with a race engine builder. Now all 4 valves are trash. Not surprised.
"Adjustability" 🤣
Custom VCT
Lots of engines use crankshaft and camshaft sprockets and spin freely on the cams and crank with no taper or press fit. On those engines, friction between the sprockets and the components they are bolted against is the only thing keeping the engine in time. Knowing that this type of design exists, I can understand why some people would feel comfortable shaving the key or keyway as they might assume it is only there to make setting the timing easier. Unfortunately, this assumption is very unsafe, and there are plenty of engines where people upgrade to dual keyways or oversized keyways because the key does help to hold everything in place even after the bolts are properly tightened and wear on the keyways prove it.
Which engines can you name off the top of your head that have sprockets that spin freely on a cam or crank? Just curious
@@drifterwannab Mini Cooper N12/N14 and BMW N55 engines are the first ones that come to mind.
Mazda L series/Ford duratec 4cyl. All of their 2.0, 2.3, 2.5 turbo, ecoboost and NA in mazda3, ford focus, ST, RS and escapes etc. dont't have any keyways or dowels on cams AND crank. There are special tools to align them.
But one important detail is that they use friction washers and you must install them absolutely clean. If you get oil on them, you run the risk of slippage@@drifterwannab
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I know a guy who just had a 4.6 4v built and it blew head gaskets in the dyno and was already smoking excessively on the break in. Engine builder swore it was ok. While pulling heads found most of the heads nuts were loose and others had negative torque. I think he is crazy because he is just doing head gaskets and proper torquing. I think he should tear down the whole motor and verify everything is good before blowing the whole motor.
Fill me in here what’s negative torque?
@@JetEngineOz idk that’s what the guy who tore down the engine called it😂 he said he had something that measures torque or lack there of.
I know you’ve touched on this multiple times. I know you don’t want to do it and it SUCKS… But with all your time you’ve dumped in, the $4-5k you already have in valvetrain/head work… I’d have him tear down and reassemble the bottom end… After seeing the things you have found already I’d be worried if KEITH can even gap a ring correctly… maybe he filed the rings with the same precision of the wood drift cam key hack job 🙄. 🤞🤞🤞
I like how you are handling the situation but you aren't getting that 1700 back
Guess Mmr isn’t too bad after all. lol
No point in degree 4v motors Imho just drop and go
U grind the key left to right
Damn comparing the 5.8 trinity to old cobra engines is retarted might aswell compare it to a flathead. There's a reason engines change and advance over time
It's called multiple cam gear sensors and a computer that can read them and then you said them where you want them
1:05:28 circle D & Nitrous Outlet 😬
I wld spread his name to everyone and try to make sure this never happens to anyone else. This literally scares the shit out of me since I need a motor built. Its just a sbf stock block, stroker build and I kno its not a 4v but your situation has me super nervous
I bought a car with a 4v that shop you are talking about built. All I asked him was what oil and weight to use. He would not answer me and said i cant tell you. Total hacker!
Fyi cloyes brand chain stuff is trash just for future reference
What kind of Hackery Voodoo Magic did that engine builder think he was doing? Or Did he just think he was gonna get away with it??? I wonder how many other people he's done this shit work to... Get your money back if he doesn't put him on Blast
Fuck that motor builder I would have made sure to get my money back one way or another.
people have filed key ways for these motors for years. the key way is only required for installation period.
the BOLT is what keeps the gear from moving. NOT the key way lmao.
the secondary gear isn’t a 10mm secondary gear, that’s primary.
that’s not what caused your “failure”. you saw a method that was done to your motor, that has nothing to do with your failure.