I have a background in the HVAC industry, you are right you are a little short on the length of tube in your pile, if you would have added at least 100 feet it would give you more surface area to heat your water, additional the velocity of the water from your pump is to fast to scrub the heat from your pile. To get your passive flow, with in your conversation you may not have the delta with the short length of tube that you have, now with that said you could possibly put your holding tank up on blocks, install a bulkhead fitting in the bottom, and allow the cold water to feed out the bottom, the velocity of your water is going to be slow enough like that to give you great heat transfer. And feed your warm water into the top of the tank to keep the cold water or return water moving vertically in your holding tank
@The Nech easily done with packed on leafs for the top, while using the paper to make the insulation for the sides. I would also configure the current set up somewhat differently as the tube is packed too tight and does not give enough space within the pile to gain heat, but circling the pipe in layers would bring more heated surface heat to each layer. However, I do follow the thought of easy out at the end of the life of the pile.
Hi, I'm no expert but I think you're pumping out too fast. My sense is that it would need more time for the heart to transfer. Also, again just my feeling, a taller, thinner tank with more vertical differential might work better, so perhaps if you raise the tank you have and let some pipe from that bottom section fall further you can effectively lower the bottom... Perhaps you can source a smaller weaker pump or slow the rate that one runs at?
Some simple things: 1. Use a thick black tarp (Eg pool liner?) over & around your compost pile to help hold heat. 2. Drill some holes, or use something air can penetrate between compost & greenhouse. (Not solid wall) 3. Cover water source. 4. Insulate around wherever you can. 5. Build some “can window heaters” (heaps of videos avail) & have the hot air from those run wherever you want. Using this method you may not even continue with the method you have now. Tip: When doing a temp reading, don’t have you body near the item you want a reading from. Like in this video your hand would have affected the reading of the water. Great video. Good luck.
I have seen a passive system that provides frost free greenhouse in the depths of winter, it was based on copper tubes sealed behind glass and heated by the sun, and fed underground to heat a pit of broken glass as a heat store. it just relied on thermals to move the heat. When I seen it it had been in use for years and was covered in brambles and forgotten, but continued with neglect to keep the greenhouse frost free.
That is astonishing!! A system built so well it kept going by itself!!!! I am intrigued! Could you give an estimate of total length of the copper tubing, volume of broken glass and the amount of square feet the greenhouse was? How was the copper tubing sealed in glass? Was it a stand-alone greenhouse or attached? and any guess how the holding area for the broken glass was constructed?? LOL my brain is on fire! Thank you in advance for any more information you can share!
Cheap insulation method for tubing is to run it though pool noodles. End of season left overs sell for a buck each in sto r e or neighbor with pool may have some. They usually get tossed at end of swim season
And actually the foam insulation for copper piping is cheaper I think and it's black so it absorbs heat as well. We used the neoprene rubber type foam for our solar hot water installations which is more efficient but it's also kind of expensive. 6' sections of the foam are about 2$, new.
From the designs that I've seen for passive thermosyphons, the "cold", (leaving the thermal battery) should be level with the bottom of the coil and the "hot", (or return) should be level with the top of the coil. The length doesn't matter that much as the water in the pipe will just flow slower, (though that does mean that more of the compost heat will be lost to the environment. (You can try both and compare the results.) Remember not to let the warm returning water mix too vigorously with the cold water. If you look at pineapple houses in the gardens of England from 300 years ago, they had a setup much like yours, (compost next to the greenhouse) and they constructed walls around the compost and added a wooden hinged lid, and then had holes in the brickwork that enabled warmed air to circulate into, (and from) the greenhouse. The advantage of your thermosyphon is that it keeps the smell/bacteria/mice out; the advantage of using air as the conductor is that there isn't any water to freeze and burst pipes, (and makes cycling the compost easier.) It would be possible to combine the two systems into one design and get most of the advantages of both, (but that requires construction in the garden.)
Some random suggestions: 1) Try adding thermal mass inside of the coil in the compost pile. This will mediate the thermal generation of the compost so that it doesn't fluctuate much under varying conditions (i.e. external temperature, wind, etc). 2) Dump the pump. The compost pile is generating some amount of heat X. The water moving through the coil removes some of the heat Y from the compost pile. If Y exceeds X you will pull all of the heat out, and eventually the pump will just be circulating cool/cold water. A natural thermosiphon manages this organically so that you get a more or less X=Y balance. 3) Try a deeper tank. By adding greater distance between cool water drawn from the bottom of the water tank and the hot water returned at the top, you'll have a stronger siphon. 4) Try keeping it a closed system with no external water source. If you have a closed loop of water, the compost pile will heat it, and this might be cumulative. But, if you add rainwater continuousl, you will be lowering net temperature (like running cold water into a hot bath). 5) Try running the hot water return from the compost pile through the grow beds before getting to the thermal battery/mass. Might overheat the beds, but might be worth a try. That's all I can think of, hope it helps.
Theres alot on here and alot I may not understand about thermodynamics, what a great topic. But I haven't seen anything about thermophillic bacteria yet and thats not a marginal difference. Also, I like your 1. to put the thermal mass inside the compost pile. My other comment was to insulate that tank. I want the ability to light a camping fire within the thermal mass to warm it and a rocket stove bench design to lay on the mass. Other ideas maybe to use plastic jugs (since salt wont corrode them to keep from freezing) and dig in and line the north wall with your insulated plastic salt water buckets, my idea is to link those jugs and circulate the water minimally so that they maintain (what 35 degrees-40 degrees )your greenhouse, perhaps you can run that salt water through a homemade solar collector. My other idea is to put a fresnel lens on your tank of water and see what energy you may capture. Don't use salt and keep the water moving?
from talking with a local pumbing and heating guy about accumulator tanks, I have the impression that to get a thermosiphoning effect, you need a certain amount of height in your tank (he talked about the neighbourhood of about 6 feet for a 500 liter accumulator tank), so that the water temps can stratify .
As stated earlier you need to work on insulating the greenhouse to minimize heat lost. But some things you could look into is to increasing the compost pile as big as you can vertically to increase the heat produced. Than you could paint the water trough black to increase its solar gain. You might even want to look into paint your greenhouse walls black as well.
Bio-char added to a compost seems to increase the heat of the pile. This is my personal observation as well as that of a friend who monitors his compost with a thermometer. It might be worth a try to tweak the system and get every bit of energy out of it you can.
@@edibleacres My guess as to why this seems to be so is that the bio-char allows more microbial life to exist in the pile and thereby more heat is generated. I hope you give it a try...
@@edibleacres It will filter out unwanted gases produced by decomposition and become integrated and inoculated as biochar. You would make a complete circle of usage. So many possibilities!
This is a great idea. My observation: Because the tubing is placed directly within the compost, you will need to completely remove the compost during the summer to reestablish an active pile. If the pile was elevated with a flow-through design to remove finished compost from the bottom, it might make it continuous and much more efficient. It would require a huge amount of work, but your initial design has really gotten my gears turning. Nice job!
Two thoughts. One: dig the stock tank 2 feet into the ground so you solve the Sylphen issue and the water temp warms soil first instead of just the air. Two: run a second hose through your grow beds so the warmer water has direct content to the plants. Hope that helps
@@edibleacres Hi Sean, so if I understand the video correctly goal 1 heat the beds, goal 2 heat the greenhouse, goal 3 heat the home. Step 1 find more pipe run it through the garden beds (6 to 8 inches deep or what ever is best for plant growth). A simple loop should do. Dump all your heat into the beds. Allow the heat from the beds heat the space. It seems like the tank is just the device you need to circulate the water. Try a different device, a 5 gallon bucket should work you will have less water mass to heat. Returning more heat back to the compost pile (until you can figure out how to do an inline pumping system). If you want to keep the big tank remove a lot of water, enough that is only necessary to keep the pump submerged. Once the tank reaches the same temperature as the input temperature you can then add more water mass to the tank 1 gallon at a time. And as others have said about the tank put a lid on it (until the tank reaches temperature), then again if your trying to heat the space, maybe not a lid. On sunny winter days in February you have already proven the little green house gets toasty warm. Using the air exchangers in combination with the compost pile should do an excellent job on heating the garden bed up. Do you have some maintenance to do on the greenhouse? Such as plugging up any holes that were missed last year or new ones from this year? Also will you tarp over the compost pile to keep snow off of it? Will you add more material to the pile if you see temperatures fall off or just regularly add fresh material on a weekly/monthly basis? I hope you can find a set of solar evacuated tubes at the re-use store. That would be a really good score. Cheers, Bill P.S. I have invested 1 hour on these thoughts, I hope they help you.
@@williamwalter8554 Some people already tried to run hose with hot water in their beds... The problem was that it was drying up the beds... So not a so good idea (according to what I found on the internet) if you want to use the beds for growing. If I can find the video, I'll put a link here. Why trying to re-invent the wheel... ;)
@@cambobby2011 Use an air system with perforations for heating the beds. The warm moist air will condense in contact with the cooler soil and give off it's moisture and heat. Use charcoal and wood chips as a biofilter layer in your beds. All kinds of great ideas out there! You would need to monitor the moisture in your compost pile. A bigger pile would produce more heat and Epstein didn't kill himself.
Great video and aspirations! Seeing that this was from 4 years ago, I'm curious to see where you are with this plan now and how things are going. Looking forward to browsing around your channel!
Right, I have seen that done here on YT in Canada and she built it 4 to 5 feet tall with the other measurements being about 4' x 10' x 4' to 5'. By the time it starts cooling off the seedling starts are placed on top for bottom heat. There are some great ideas coming out here!
Insulate over the pile but not the side that contacts the greenhouse. That creates 2 positives, 1 your pile will be warmer since it won’t be losing heat to the air and 2 the heat from the pile will be conducted through the wall into the greenhouse.
The question l ask is not just what will you do to heat the greenhouse, but what will you do to keep that heat from escaping? Since you have built this greenhouse from scrap parts and windows, it can lose much heat through the single pane glass or poly panels, Etc Especially as each panel is made of different thickness or R-value materials. Many of us, (myself included), have added another layer in the winter to our greenhouses, thereby creating a "double paneled" structure. This can be done by actually covering the greenhouse with another layer of plastic or poly, (which can be attached either inside or outside the greenhouse - depending what works for you) and can also be done by attaching bubble wrap to all the inside glass/plastic surfaces. I found that the larger 1" bubble wrap works better. Each bubble "traps air" and helps to keep the overall temperature higher in the greenhouse. (I found the best prices for such were at the big box office stores.) Many larger commercial hoop houses use 2 layers on their greenhouses, and utilize an air generating fan to blow bewteen the 2 layers, thus allowing the space between the layers to heat up naturally. The addition of extra poly, plastic or bubble wrap does not affect the light transmission very much. You only lose maybe 5% to 10%. The other thing that could be done is blankets or curtains of some type. They would be used for the evening hours to try to keep any heat that was generated from escaping. These can be added inside or out - depending on what you have available. (I once used old bed comforters!) Of course, these would have to be moved into place daily - at dusk and then dawn or morning. It appears that the roof of your greenhouse has some sort of plastic panels, and this may be where most heat would be lost, as heat rises. The other thing that can be done is a "greenhouse within a greenhouse". Many will do small hoop enclosures over the raised growing beds. This creates a warmer environment for the plants. Many have found that this system works great. Elliot Coleman has done this extensively in Maine, and has used no heat at all...(but "to each his own"!) I know this did not address your current heating system - but hope it helped give you some more "tools for thought" !!!
Great ideas, all of them. It made me think of a shorter cattle panel greenhouse to cover the compost pile and help create a heat bank to help with the heat sink of the pile.
I understand what you are saying for sure. If this were a standalone structure in the field I would go for it 100% with the extra layers. Attached to our home, it is partially about the look and feel of the space and partly about pure functionality. I believe we'll be making cold frame boxes for the soil itself this winter so we can keep the light and open feel of the space overall. Not ideal from a thermal perspective but aesthetics and sense of space are also part of the equation...
I think the limiting factor on the heat generated is probably the size of your pile, whereas you can be more efficient in capturing the heat that is available by spacing out the piping. If you look at Jean Pain's video, he spaces out the piping throughout the pile to ensure the maximum contact with compost volume, whereas by coiling them together in the cage as you currently do, the volume of compost you are extracting heat from is limited. That's why it runs out of hot water so quickly. As for the thermosyphon/pumping, the only thing that will help is going to be the height of your tank. The same principle as a taller chimney having more draw. I don't think that putting the entire stock tank higher is going to help.
Elevating the tank will help with thermosiphon. Cold water out the bottom warmed water in the top. Since you have a shorter length of piping slow down the flow through it. If it were spread out a little more may help also, it seems from the photo that it is rather closely spaced. I believe insulating the tank will help as well. Maybe running the warmed water through the raised bed with a separate pump and piping set up would help heat the bed directly. Maybe a lower flow pump something like one of those small pond pumps I've got one that does only 65 GPH. This would let you cycle the whole tank maybe once per hour without putting any restrictions on the pump intake or outlet
I am wondering if using a 55 gallon plastic drum might be a better tank. It would be easier to raise up on cinder blocks and get the head height for a passive system and preserve some floor space.
I would say that bringing the total tubing to 100' or more would help. And I agree with other commenters that your flow rate is too fast right now. You might want to also consider building the compost pile up taller. Maybe use some pallets to keep it confined, but built in a way that you can easily remove a side or two to pull the spent material. And then raising the water battery in accordance with the height of the compost and tubing. Adding a 275 gallon or larger tote may also be of value based on the added mass. I got lucky tonight and found this channel completely by accident, as one your wood stove videos started playing automatically. I will def be using that biochar technique with the saw dust from my sawmill, thanks! And I am looking to do some similar things with a property I am building in the next few years, so I really appreciate all the time you've put into sharing the knowledge you've acquired.
Three things you need more compost you need more tubing and you need a pump that is slower also you need to turn your compost pile often trial and error start off turning it every day then try every other day etc. etc. keep a running chart of your temperatures that way you know how often you need to turn it by the way I love your ideas. You’re on the right track look at a few more RUclips videos and you’ll see just how much to me it takes the heat of water.
Shaun, build a black locust box large enough to bank some leaf insulation around the tank, and a top to stop the heat from leaving would also be wise. And yes, I agree plumbing in a return and over flow is a great idea; however your pipe would benefit from some black paint or tape off of the rainwater catchment tank. Most importantly, I think you will find David Pagan Butler ideas on "Enhanced Bubble Pumps for an Organic Pool" or "Organic Pools airlfit pump system for a koi filter" very interesting. I believe you will use some of his ideas to make the system function great this year as you figure out the finer details. As far as heating the house, I believe your pile would have to be much larger to achieve that. However, some black screening used in a solar air heater banked against the house, but inside the green house, or on the sliding glass door could look something like "Solar air heater in Northern Quebec" or Best Passive Solar Heating - Made Easy... and that works!!!" All "links" found on YT. Now here is my question: Sasha, when are you going to post another cooking video; soon I hope !?! Just ran across this today, it would be worth a view; "How To Make Solar Water Heater/geysers Under 10$". It is not exactly the way you are going, however the end result looks to be good.
A slower pump and snake the pipe crisscross between the ground and the compost pile which will allow the earth to become a thermal mass. That will make it easier to turn the pile later. It will disperse the heat exchange better and will not try and take heat from just one small area in the pile.
My suggestion is to enclose and or insulate the compost first. Within reason to maintain a functional compost. Second: Consider getting a car style radiator set up inside your house with a fan behind it and your inlet and exit pipes plumbed into it inline with your temperature activated pump. This could be your heat transfer method. All the best. Alex.
Ev1 seems to think that composting needs to be done on a flat surface. Why not composting in a long, sloped box (45 degree angle?) with a corrugated steel sheet acting as a bottom and a heat transfer medium to either tubes or a big tub filled with water below? Of course the structure needs to be insulated, but loading fresh compost in on the top and removing the processed stuff from the bottom, would enable a constant heat production. All the piles with a tubing inside cause a lot of work and have a great variation in heat production and may wear out well before the end of the cold season.
That would be an interesting idea but hard to visualize as functional...Heat rises, so the collector being below the compost I'm not sure I understand how that would function...
@@edibleacres Hot air and hot water molecules rise, but infrared radiation spreads to all directions just like light. You can test that by moving to or from a wood stove. The difference is that air and water are a medium and infrared radiation functions without a medium. Light, including infrared radiation from the sun, travels to earth in a vacuum, no transport medium needed. So the proposed corrugated steel sheet will act like the vertical side of a radiator sending out thermal radiation. Another example: a heat lamp above young chickens. I hope this explains some heat transfer principles. At the moment I'm extending the thermal mass in my passive solar greenhouse, but I have no intention to cover the concrete pavers with wood chips, these would insulate the floor and reduce the amount of available thermal mass and increase the temperature swings in the GH. I water my plants in the GH subsoil, because a wet surface will have a higher evaporation, extracting heat from the soil and transfer that heat to the coldest places in the GH where it will condensate. It's also an attempt to minimize the moisture level in the air and reduce the risk of fungal problems. Heat transfer by evaporation and condensation is another principle. At the moment my growbags, inner brick footings of the GH and water bottles are white in order to maximize the amount of light in the GH. Besides temperature, lack of light is the second big problem during winter in a GH. The soil level in my GH is a foot above floor level, in order to keep the cold air away from the plants during the night. As you might have guessed: cold air sinks. Always great to watch your vids. Best wishes greetings from Holland.
This is a great idea, I agree with the suggestions to increase tube length and decrease flow rates on the pump, also you are losing a lots of heat to the environment, if the pill were covered you would increase heat and provide additional space to add another thermal transfer location with a solar collector like you guys have created in the past.
Love this video. There are two concepts heat capture and heat use. What if you you deploy a smaller drip tubing to deploy the heat? Surface area must be considered in both concepts.
We use a 100ft 3/4in hdpe coil to heat our shower. The pile is pretty small, it just barely covers the coils. The hot water lasts only about 3 minuets. The hottest we’ve got the water is 110. degrees. Since our pile is so small I have to add grass and turn the pile once a week.
Wow! Lots of information in these comments. I picked up a free poly pipe coil on the side of the road today. I like the thermosiphon approach, too, but if that doesn't work try a used car windshield washer pump...they're cheap and the flow would be much slower. I'm experimenting with all this stuff too. It's all an experiment. I currently have 200' of poly coil in a compost heap that I started to heat a small hot tub. I do compost inside my small dog kennel greenhouse, I pour chicken poop tea on it from time to time.
The thermal siphoning system circulates itself through a coil wrapping of the tube in your compost pile. The heated water is slowly pushed up through the coil. You would put a water adapter in the bottom of the galvanized tank for the coil to pull from and a top water adapter for your return warm water to flow back into the tank. It will flow a lot slower, but more constant. Keep up the good work this knowledge is learned by doing mostly.
Be simple, put a spigot about 6 inches below the top of the tank and run a line from there to your passive irrigation, honestly it could be a directly connected drip line, just make sure the spigot is far enough down to offset the maximum input of water from outside sources. You can use the spigot size to offset that as well, but that may impact pressure to the passive system, you could also just make a hole above the spigot for emergencies, like the hole on the front of your bathroom sink, that feeds to a hose and spills into the garden.
I knew a guy in Germany in the 80's who had two open 15'x25'x6'deep concrete lined pits with a ramp for a front loader tractor. He had miles of poly tubing in it and he dumped in tons of fresh wood chips 6 feet deep (owned acres of woods). This system heated his entire homestead with a big family including hot water for about year or two. You just need to scale it up.
There's some math to be done in terms of how many BTUs your pile can produce and how much of that you can (literally!) siphon off without stalling out the pile. Remember Jean Pain was working with piles that were something like ten times the volume you're using ;) Whether you would actually get more heat with a longer coil or not really depends on how much heat that pile is generating. there's probably some math that can be used to figure out BTUs based on the average temperature of the pile (throughout its volume, not over time) and the mass of the pile, but I'm not familiar with those kinds of calculations ;) As it's not currently practical to add another 60 feet of tubing into that coil, you might try restricting the rate of flow, giving the water more time in the pile. Putting a spray nozzle on the hose back into the tank and shutting it down to a trickle should let you test whether the limit is transfer of heat or actual amount of heat produced by the pile...
Sure. The pile is mostly cellulose, so figure 8,000 BTUs per pound. The tank is 100 gallons, so 800 BTUs to raise it 1 degree F. For every pound in the pile, it raises the tank 10 degrees, once.
It definitely seems the limiting factor is the heat transferring into the tube in a timely manner, not the total amount of heat available to the tube. I need slower flow through, which is why I'm hoping to crack the code on a gentle thermosiphon for the whole thing...
@@edibleacres If you are correct that you are heat transfer limited, then you want to increase the flow rate, not decrease it. Heat transfer is proportional to the the temperature difference (and R-value and area of the transfer surface), so you want the coldest water in the tube that you can get, which means faster flow rate.
@@CorwynGC You seem to forget there is a limited amount of heat available. Also, you must retain heat, or reintroduce it during the day with solar heated air, for the microorganisms to keep feeding and producing heat as byproduct. The pile is not nearly big enough for that climate, but compost heat is ideal for the North East or areas with little winter sun.
@@markroeder2491 Not sure why you would say that when my first response gave a formula for figuring out exactly how limited the amount of heat available was.
You are on the right track-we would use a similar technique when we would lose a pump in our heating system in a building I worked in in Manhattan. It was 21 stories tall and we would use the siphoning affect and a check valve to be able to circulate the domestic water until we could get the pump back online. With the correct temperature, diameter of tubing, length of tubing, and a check valve you should be able to get the job done. Also, remember that if you’re going to use radiant heating in the floor, it doesn’t have to be very hot to heat the entire house- I believe you should seriously investigate the temperatures you need to achieve to be able to heat the house; if I remember correctly it’s only about 70° (water temperature ) but you need to verify that. Radiant floor heating is not my specialty.
Any heat you gain is going to escape right through that thin glass, make a bag greenhouse inside your greenhouse with 2 mil poly, to keep that heat inside. Staple the plastic sheet right to the frames of the windows, and it will leave an air gap that will give you R5 insulation as well as sealing off any cold drafts. Total cost: $20 for one 10x100ft roll
Do NOT try to use an IR thermometer to measure the temp of water. The limiting factor is the amount of heat generated by the organisms, not the amount of tubing. In fact, if you extract too much heat, you will kill the heat source altogether, and the pile will freeze, and won't thaw until spring. Thermo-siphoning will not work without some height on the tank. Longer tubing will not significantly affect the heat transfer. And if you need more heat transfer, you can increase the flow rate. That small pile will not make enough heat to keep the greenhouse warm, your house is right out. Think about how long a pile of wood like that would last you in your woodstove, that is the maximum you could ever get out of the pile. If you want to talk more about this, let me know, I am willing to trade energy advice, for seedlings etc.
I agree with this assesment and I am a professional in ecofriendly housing. There is not enough material to heat, etc. This will keep warm for a month or so but come january the pile will be exhausted. You may try to use humanure on the center pile to keep it going for a little more, but there is only so much energy in organic matter. Your system is very good : it is just a seadon extension, not a real heating solution in freezing climates.
Attaching your hose at the bottom of the tank and just set the tank on some blocks a foot or 2 will passively move the hotter water out the top hose. The higher the tank the more presser and the faster the flow. Good luck
This old house has a RUclips series called future house and I just watched a segment about thermal batteries: in it the coil is bigger and concentric. You should check it out. I’m really interested in how this works out
Ah yes, a flat concentric coil instead of spring coil would acquire heat faster and, after initial heat up, transfer more evenly in this nondistilling use.
Do they make mini ram-pumps? Any flow could get pushed by the pump, which would raise the stock tank level, which would force flow, which would get pushed by the pump, etc.
I was thinking on doing the same thing, but for a shed, not a greenhouse. For starters I acquired a trampoline frame to hold my compost... More supplies as I can... I am thinking of poly piping layed out more on a flat plain... Oh, and I too am in the finger lakes area...
Just keep running it until it is back up to temperature. You took 40 degree water and ran it through hot hoses, of course it's going to cool off until the water in the buck and coils become the same temperature in both. Then set up a timer to run every 30 mins or so for 5 mins and it will maintain the temperature you want.
I have experienced something similar. Look up outdoor bathtubs. The ones I have been exposed to involve a stock tank and a metal coil that has a fire built in it. Water circulates purely from heat.
I have been heating my greenhouses for years with compost. I however use air and not water. The warmed air aids in managing humidity. My system is based on Jeanne Paines system. If you would like to collaborate with me on some of this, feel free to reach out anytime!
Some of the gases generated by the composting process are irritants, dangerous, or both. Concentrated indoors, the ammonia smell can be overpowering if the system turns even slightly anaerobic.
@@gregorymarlett1277 seen a guy run a fan through the compost pile to return air to it and cut out the ammonia. Could be worth a try. But I like better the idea of using the compost pile as both a thermal barrier and a heat source from outside.
Your videos are amazing, thank you so much for putting the time you do into them. I know it's been a year since you made this video but... Maybe build a small water tower in your green house and place your cold water tank below it? Extra filtration here would prolong the life of your pump, you could still use gravity but I would use it to bring the filtered hot water to the top and let gravity feed it from your cold water tank into your tubing. Off the wall idea, what if you were able to run a static metal pipe through the center of a mounted turntable drum? It would be turntable if the pile stalled and if the pump is still only working to bring the hot water up it... I live in the desert and don't know how insulated it would have to be for you but it's fun. 😄
Jean Pain heated a greenhouse to 35 degrees c., - 90 degrees f. for one whole year solely by a compost pile made from forest litter and other forest debris. The heap was around twenty tonnes in weight, and the greenhouse was built on a bank about one metre - three feet, higher than the compost pile. He used about 100 mm, - four inch, agricultural pvc pipe connected by plastic elbows. the heap was rectangular and If I remember correctly Jean took two turns of the pipe through the compost pile and then into the greenhouse. There were no fans or pumps, it was strictly thermosyphoning from the heap into the top of the end wall of the green house, and the cold air went back to the compost from a return pipe near the floor. Temperatures got below freezing, but the greenhouse kept warm regardless of the weather. This works because of the volume of the heap. I have done many years of experiments, and it is necessary to have a heap of four to six tonnes at least, to make the output worth while. Even a five tonne heap, although it can reach temperatures of 65 degrees c, will only last three months or so, and the temperature will steadily decrease after the first week. It is good enough for two people to have a hot shower everyday for three or four months and with enough hot water to do the dishes etc., but for really useful amounts, go for twenty tonnes. This takes quite a lot of scavenging for organics, but imagine how good you will feel when you harvest seven tonnes of pure worm castings a year later, after growing food all winter, or heating your home for free. Currently we lose billions of tonnes of forest litter to uncontrolled fire, and organic waste is everywhere waiting to be used. As I said, I have done over twenty years of experimental heaps intended for driving methane digestors, and am delighted to answer any questions if I can.
I've never measured compost by weight, so I really have no idea what this or other piles weigh! I can get a decent sense of the dimensions of the pile but have never thought about them in weight! Clearly I'm sold on the idea of collecting and working with as much organic matter as possible. We send most of it through our chicken composting system but bulking out a larger system would be compelling to me. The limiting factor is our small site and trying to figure out the best relative location to put things to be able to have a large enough pile close enough to where we need the warmth/water delivered! It'll evolve over time I'm sure...
@@edibleacres Please be mindful of building a big pile next to your living quarters. Fire is a possibility when you start building bigger piles. They can dry so fast and spontaneously combust!
You've probably already thought of this but...What about placing the compost pile inside the greenhouse? Then you wouldn't need the water tank, hoses, etc. You lose some productive square footage in the greenhouse but it simplifies the process...I think???
It's the best scenario but , decomposition will generate compounds that are not healthy for humans in close space ( CO2,CH4 ,SO2 ...) And will smell funky . For a greenhouse for plants only it will be very good idea to get the pile inside. In bonus plants will love the extra CO2 !
I don't have room in my greenhouse for a water tank so I made a u shaped piece of 3 inch gas vent pipes put the pipes in the compost pile and ran the pipe through the back wall of the greenhouse at a 45 degree angle, heat rises and comes from the compost pile into the greenhouse, The hot air rising from the pipes creates airflow from inside the greenhouse through the compost and back into the greenhouse. I get air at temps up to 120 degrees using this method. I use a small fan to circulate the hot air around the interior of the greenhouse. This will keep the greenhouse around 50 - 60 degrees on a cold night.
Hi, very interesting to view a home version of this type of system 👍. I appreciate the duplicate centigrade temp you include in your video. The overflow idea: could you combine it with a wicking bed system that has its own overflow to prevent overwatering?
The wicking idea is possible, not sure if it would be too complex... So far this has worked pretty nicely. If we get heavy rain I use it as an opportunity to dip into the tank and water heavily the other areas. So far so good...
A couple of radiators salvaged from a wrecking yard or abandoned vehicles can be connected one above the other to make an effective solar hot water system. (Make sure they don't leak, and paint them matt black if they aren't already painted.) 200 litre Plastic Barrels, painted black to absorb heat can be placed along the back of a greenhouse wall to absorb heat throughout the day and will radiate the heat back out during the night. The two systems could be combined to provide a storage battery of heat, or even be used for an outdoor shower.
@@erector5953 check out "Organic Pools airlfit pump system for a koi filter" I love this idea. Okay, a cheaper solution could be a toggle switch ran inside the house for a quick cycle every so often. But, I question the cycle not happening on its own if the temp rises enough anyway? My concern is the back flow if the pile cools off, right!?!
Closed loop at right angles, coils and out pipe completely full of water and insulated. (Bubble tape packaging and duct tape works great) like a pump the water must be primed and free of air bubbles.
with my father we used to make raised beds about 0,5m height directly from manure with top layer of compost+soil. it was heating the beds directly from bottom plus heating the greenhouse air from feb. to end of april. would not last through all winter though, but you have not so much sunlight either to grow much. it could strech our season for selling vegetable seedling 40cm high in beginning of may. laborous to remove spent manure by end of summer though.
Basically for a passive system you will need bigger pile bigger tube and warm water rises in the compost and goes up( tank higher then compost pile) think I saw snow so you need 4 + cubic meters. For heating the house as well you need much more. But for accurate heating you need a small pump to be sure the heating works smoothly.
Also the system you have where the pipes are fixed on the metal structure you need to think of the decomposition of the compost pile. therefore it's necessary that the pipe can accompany the decomposition and fall down otherwise sooner or later you will see that the top will be exposed because the material decomposed. Also you need to look into hot composting.Using woodsips from green branches at a 9 to 1 ratio (1 manure for 9 of woodships)I have a pile that last 1 year constantly providing heat for shower and washing dishes etc..
The thermo-siphon idea you have is pretty good. It will self-regulate itself because it will only move as fast as the heat moves into the water. As long as the water entering the bottom of the loop is cooler than the compost pile, it should work. Just make sure that the cool water pipe entry is about the same level as or sllightly higher than the bottom of the coil in the compost pile. Oh, and the cool water should always enter the compost pile at the bottom of the coil. The hot water will move "uphill" as it were.
Bigger pile and more hose plus you are moving water pretty fast at 50 gal per minute. If you raised tank up and at bottom connect cold from pile and then have water just circulate slower it will stay hotter. You could also use a small rampump if you had two tanks one high and one low when water from top tank flows down
I didn't read all the comments but one thing i did notice is you are probable loosing a great deal of your heat from the open top tub . I think you have a great idea there , one thing you might try is using a black drum drum inside , the drum will help to draw in heat as well as radiate heat from the water . I am thinking about using a set up very similar to that .
Paint the basin and exterior water tank black. This will heat up both a little when the sun hits it. Also have a tube or vent directly from pile to green house
What is the state of the underground thermal battery and is there a way to combine the two? My first impression about the compost heater is that the pump is moving too much water too quickly. How can you dial down the pump? You also need to address the heat loss through single pane glass.
What you have is an "open" system at the moment. You could put a heat exchanger on the end of your tubing which would be submerged in the water to make it more efficient. Then you would have a "closed" loop system. You can get an immersion chiller from a brewing supply place for about $50. They chill wort for homebrewing but it works the same way as a heat exchanger, it is a heat exchanger. Then insulate your tank with foam and close the top up with foam too. You'd have to plumb the pump inline but its not hard to do. Then put it on a timer, maybe run it a couple of minutes/hr or just turn it on every so often and you could keep your tank fairly hot I imagine, insulated. Raise it up and you can plumb a pipe into that fitting and let it gravity feed to wherever you need hot water. You'd have a chance at heating your home if you had tubing in the floor slab but that's the only way I know to use water for space heating, radiant heat. You essentially have a small water heater using an alternative fuel.
I don't have a technical observation, just a commonsensical one- the choice isn't between a shorter length of reused tubing or a longer length of new tubing--you could always get additional reused tubing as it becomes available, and get towards the idea length. Especially since you wisely put it in so that it's relatively accessible.
Drill a hole in the side,pass a uniseal in, a PVC pipe of the right diameter, an elbow up and pipe to set the overflow level. On the outside, you can build a minifold out of T Union and PVC pipes to distribute your water to the beds. You probably want ball valves to make sure the water distributes into the different beds. The sizing of the pipe is the real issue here: how much flow do you expect?
Wow cool lol mean warm lol... A new buddy was looking for ways to warm a green house this is a great idea.... My uncle told me once if it was a closed circuit the hot / cold water would naturally circulate it??
This could work to add a bit extra heat to animal pens outdoors or even wrapped around water dishes to keep them from freezing... Ideas to grow on this is why I love RUclips the ideas are shared back and forth
Dig a pit. Build your compost with pipe ( WIDER PIPE THAN YOU HAVE ) in the pit. The pipe taking COLD should be LOW in your greenhouse. The pipe which delivers the HOT should be higher in the greenhouse. HOT air rises. COLD air sinks. It will automatically deliver the heat. No water necessary.
Do you have any concerns that drawing the heat out of the compost pile can cause it stop generating heat? Can you "drain the battery" so much it stops working? EDIT: thanks punky that is what I meant, drawing too much heat and stopping decomposition.
@Void I think Butch means the heat "battery" of the compost pile. If you pull too much heat out of the compost it will cool and halt the decomposition that is generating the heat. I'm currently experimenting with heating my greenhouse via compost and that is a genuine concern.
@@punkyroo sorry i was confused with "drain the battery" in @Butch sentence . My background in electrical engineering triggered me! It makes sense that it's probably the heat generated in the compost getting to much drained out .
I'm not concerned with that. Right now the pile is RIPPING at 160F and loosing a TON of heat to the atmosphere, so I'd like to reclaim that. I think if the pile was running at 80F I'd be happier with the health of the compost it makes actually.
I know this is late in the posting game, but... It would be a bit of work, but imo I feel it would be worth it. Invest in the line, most site you can pick up 1,000' of line for $300. Excavate your greenhouse and lay the line in using the perpetual figure 8 coil (like used in geothermal heating methods), then rebuild your garden beds on top. The thermal cycling of the water should more than warm the soil without burning your veggies. I built a horseshoe coil for my compost for easy clean out. Same principal, but stake out your coil core in a U shape. My bed is roughly 15'sq with a 10' U in center using 30 pieces of rebar for staked frame (salvaged from neighborhood construction sites) that I gave a good rustoleum coating for longevity. I then wove the water lines through the U in wide swaths, back and forth to avoid kinking, until I had a large billowy looking horseshoe. The more line, the more water, the more hot water. The line at the bottom of the U is the intake, the line at the top is output. THEN, I took some salvaged 3" french drain with the weed cloth wrap and laid it on the ground around the outside of the U with each end protruding from compost containment. This is for aeration, reducing need for turning. Pack compost in all around. Once a year, I remove the front panel, remove the compost easily from in and around the U, give it a rinse, repack and repeat in 12 months. With the footage of the line, I would use a 100gph water pump for a steady cycle and routing it through the tank is more than feasible. I kind of like the idea of it acting as a humidifier/snowmelt/rain catch storage. I have mine running into a salvaged 30 gal water heater. For the overflow, if you want to invest a little more, a 5 gal bucket with another small gph water pump that has a float switch and a misting line for wide/even dispersion of the water.
Try raising the water storage above the height of the compost (thermal dynamics) should bring the heat without moving the water. I would also suggest using a black barrel to hold the water and produce more heat. I believe the trough open top with surface area would release heat to fast. Or cover the trough and paint it black. Thanks for sharing the video
this seems like a geothermal idea but your using the limited power of a compost pile. Your best bet would be to do a much larger pile that is in a pit. Putting it deeper into the ground will allow it to benefit from the geothermal portion as well as the composting heat. I would make a trench 5 feet wide and as long as I could, and probably 2-3 feet deep, lay your lines and fill it with compost materials.
Yes, I would try this too. 5 feet wide, 10-15 feet long, 1-3 feet deep trench with pipe, and build a 5 feet tall, compost pile to cover the entire trench.
2 Ideias Try to insulate the ground, maybe with some kind of thermal blanket Try to put a good layer of compost, then a flat layer of your tubing, then the rest of the compost, or your tubing can maybe be "scarted" more through the compost pile
Worked for 30 years in a paper plant. We used this method to help regulate flows on a temporary system to set how things performed before making it permanent. Most pump will handle the slight restriction. Wouldn’t go beyond 50% closure of the valve. Looks like a low psi pump so should be ok. Just a thought. Love your videos. Keep up the good work.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, would be good to insulate that metal tank of water and put a lid on it to maintain the temp. Also, the water flow rate from the compost seems too high. Maybe the pump voltage can be lowered? Copper coil pipe would be ideal inside the compost pile, but that's not the usual kind of thing you'll find cheap. Otherwise, see if you can find some old car radiators.
Have you ever tried making a biogas digester. Now that is the way to go. Ive built three home digesters which make biogas to power a small gas generator. food scrapes which make power .
I think we have too cold a climate here to do this effectively outside, where it is safer. I am interested in the concept but need to research more how to have it work in a cold climate.
I think yes raise it four or five feet on a simple stand or whatever you could create and then expand your compost pile maybe enrich it with other kinds of scrapes and what not?
wondering if you could run the whole system inversed. use the water tank like a boiler and keep it heated in the pile, then radiate the heat out through the pipes into the green house kinda like a floor heating system.
A bit late to the party here. I've constructed heat transfer coils for brewing, and I'm fascinated with thermosiphons. As others have pointed out, a low flow volume (ie of siphon) will help even out the temperature gradient between pile and coil. My first thought is that the coil is wound too tightly. For a given length of tube, a wider coil with fewer turns & a wider turn radius would allow the coil to extract heat from a larger volume of the pile. Finding spacers that you can add between turns would help this. Another comment re siphon: air bubbles will kill it (stop flow), and they're a pain to purge. It looks like that bilge pump is the perfect tool to purge. You can also use a pump to push a piece of sponge that's slightly larger than pipe through the pipe to push through bubbles (this may take some trial and error). I might be able to advise re specific pipe fittings, if you have questions there...
Move all and spread the compost to all the floor space of the greenhouse, it will breakdown slower and heat the surrounding block and via convection to the soil, you may need to turn.
I'm concerned about how long you can depend on the pile to keep producing heat. If the pile stops providing sufficient heat in the middle of January, how can you recharge it without your greenhouse taking a major hit until a new pile gets started?
Leaf litter and urine packed into the center, it would heat back up fast and is completely doable as long as you can access the center of the pile; until that point urine an leaf layers would super charge any pile.
I could imagine it stalling mid-winter. This is a test run and I will hopefully rebuild at some point when we are getting closer to seed starting season...
@@edibleacres The thing about a compost pile is... you can always add more material especially as it breaks down. Every month or so add on two new feet of material boom heat recharged. Cheers, Bill
DIY yourself a concrete water cistern that will be partially buried into the ground . that will give you the thermal mass you need beriot halfway in the ground. You will be heating the soil and it will turn it into a thermal battery and the heat will store in the side walls of the concrete. Also tripling the size of your coil to a minimum of 300 feet. and put in the coil closer to the ground in spreading it out closer to the ground instead of stacking it taller.... You can also cut a hole in the side of the greenhouse to let the compost pile directly vent the hot air into the greenhouse just put some chicken wire over the whole. It will passively let the hot air come into the greenhouse along with the water heat.
I'm a little late to this video but I have a couple of suggestions. To gather the most heat from your pile why not have the hose/ pipe running all throughout the pile, not just in a coil in the middle. imagine the layout of under floor heating pipes but in your compost pile. The second might need a bit more work and a different set up. You could put the water tank in the middle of the compost pile. Water is obviously good at storing heat so once it got going and the water was warm it shouldn't have any detrimental effect on the internal heat of the pile. Downsides are that the tank may be a bit harder to access and you would need to make sure it was covered in a good layer come winter if you get cold temperatures that might freeze the water. There could be a good reason why you haven't tried either of these, I'm no expert its just he first thing that came to my mind.
The kitty wants to come out and play. =) Why don't you use a solar water heater? Seems like it would be more consistent with the heat. I like the idea of catching the rain water and trying to heat it though.
How about putting a temporary greenhouse over the compost pile and insulation around the sides? Connect it to the permanent greenhouse so there can be heat exchange with large air tubes instead of a small water pipe. Basically, a souped up version of what you had before with the mesh vents. I know enclosing it would mean more work keeping it watered, but it's a thought.
If your holding tank was taller you would have a stronger temperature gradient and better passive flow.... If you could find a way to heat the last couple feet of hose flowing into the tank that would help, even insulate it with a couple layers of clear bubble wrap... The sun would heat it up and drive circulation
Among other ideas, one thing that I tried last summer (I started a small pile, probably twice as big as yous for experimenting) is that I kept some urine and when the pile was pouting out less warmth, I poured as much urine (appox. 10 2 liters bootles) in the middle of the pile. The next day, I always noticed (with a thermometer) a BIG raise in temperature in the middle of the pile. So it's like putting fire wood in the wood stove... II's 100% free and 100% organic!!! So rather than flushing it in the toilet... you can use it with great results!
Yep... Believe me, you don't have to sell me on this aspect. I've been saving and using urine for gardening/etc for 12 years. This pile was kicked off with 3 gallons added right around the coil!
@@edibleacres Another good idea that I love is in that link here: ruclips.net/video/ZD_3_gsgsnk/видео.html . I'm only in the ''conception'' stage for my project. I knew you would probably already knew about these ideas, but just in case. I also want to tell you that I love so many of your ideas. I just want to be sure of my concept before I go ahead with it. And I also want to be sure that I take full advantage of all the new techology and using as much salvaged and recycled stuff as possible. Good day.
Another qst that I wonder: If you are not using the pump and the solar panel during the winter, why not just keep using it in your green house. I always try to apply the KISS concept (Keep it simple stupid). To often, we look for best solution possible, we have a passion and we try to reach for the BEST WAY which too often is too complicated and complex (me too, too often!!!).
All over China I've seen water heaters on rooftops, just using the sun to bake barrels of water for in-home use during the warmer months. Don't know if that could help
That is the ''Jean Pain '' formula , heating with compost. I love that system too. I wanna try it too next year, but on a bigger scale. I've been searching on that subject on the internet for a while now and I'll try mixing it up with some new ideas (that I got from the internet). I think that Ihave a few good ideas for you and everybody watching your channel. I'll be back to you soon on that subject. Tks.
@@edibleacres I already posted a few quick ideas on your channel, this morning but I will share many more with you a bit later. I have so many good ideas that I want to share with you guys and expecting good feed back / good ideas from people like you. I think that on your channel, we all have the same passion. I've already learned SSOOOO many great ideas on your channel (among others). I've been looking at so many videos on so many different subjects on RUclips for quite a long time now. And I want to add that I LOVE your philosophy of life guys. For a long time, I thought I was alone to have a dream like yours. But with internet today, I've discovered that there is a lot of nice people in the world who share my philosophy of life. And I also LOVE the way both of you talk in your videos, I love the tone of your voice guys, it's so relaxing. I feel some real passion in what you're doing. It connects with me 100%. Also I've been raised on a milk farm, in a family of 10 kids with little $$$ on a tight budget all the time. And I was the only one in the family who was spending SSSOOOO much time alone with all the animals on the farm. I always felt good in nature for surrounded with animals. So when you post ''chicken time'' videos it connects with me 100%. For sure, my project will be different from yours but at the same time, with so many similarities I can't wait to share my thoughts with you guys. I see it as a kind of GOOD AND POSITIVE brain storming!
I have a background in the HVAC industry, you are right you are a little short on the length of tube in your pile, if you would have added at least 100 feet it would give you more surface area to heat your water, additional the velocity of the water from your pump is to fast to scrub the heat from your pile.
To get your passive flow, with in your conversation you may not have the delta with the short length of tube that you have, now with that said you could possibly put your holding tank up on blocks, install a bulkhead fitting in the bottom, and allow the cold water to feed out the bottom, the velocity of your water is going to be slow enough like that to give you great heat transfer. And feed your warm water into the top of the tank to keep the cold water or return water moving vertically in your holding tank
@The Nech easily done with packed on leafs for the top, while using the paper to make the insulation for the sides. I would also configure the current set up somewhat differently as the tube is packed too tight and does not give enough space within the pile to gain heat, but circling the pipe in layers would bring more heated surface heat to each layer. However, I do follow the thought of easy out at the end of the life of the pile.
Hi, I'm no expert but I think you're pumping out too fast. My sense is that it would need more time for the heart to transfer. Also, again just my feeling, a taller, thinner tank with more vertical differential might work better, so perhaps if you raise the tank you have and let some pipe from that bottom section fall further you can effectively lower the bottom... Perhaps you can source a smaller weaker pump or slow the rate that one runs at?
The water flow is too high !
Great ideas here. Thanks SO much!
You cannot take to much heat from the compost..
It would stop the process of heating.
Some simple things:
1. Use a thick black tarp (Eg pool liner?) over & around your compost pile to help hold heat.
2. Drill some holes, or use something air can penetrate between compost & greenhouse. (Not solid wall)
3. Cover water source.
4. Insulate around wherever you can.
5. Build some “can window heaters” (heaps of videos avail)
& have the hot air from those run wherever you want.
Using this method you may not even continue with the method you have now.
Tip: When doing a temp reading, don’t have you body near the item you want a reading from. Like in this video your hand would have affected the reading of the water.
Great video. Good luck.
Great notes, thank you!
I have seen a passive system that provides frost free greenhouse in the depths of winter, it was based on copper tubes sealed behind glass and heated by the sun, and fed underground to heat a pit of broken glass as a heat store. it just relied on thermals to move the heat. When I seen it it had been in use for years and was covered in brambles and forgotten, but continued with neglect to keep the greenhouse frost free.
That is astonishing!! A system built so well it kept going by itself!!!! I am intrigued! Could you give an estimate of total length of the copper tubing, volume of broken glass and the amount of square feet the greenhouse was? How was the copper tubing sealed in glass? Was it a stand-alone greenhouse or attached? and any guess how the holding area for the broken glass was constructed?? LOL my brain is on fire! Thank you in advance for any more information you can share!
@@amandajarboe1131 if you get any info please share with me
I'd also be interested in a bit more specificity.
Hi Steve can you give more details please, thanks in advance
Cheap insulation method for tubing is to run it though pool noodles. End of season left overs sell for a buck each in sto r e or neighbor with pool may have some. They usually get tossed at end of swim season
That is a great idea!
GREAT idea here.. I should keep my eyes out for those!
And actually the foam insulation for copper piping is cheaper I think and it's black so it absorbs heat as well. We used the neoprene rubber type foam for our solar hot water installations which is more efficient but it's also kind of expensive. 6' sections of the foam are about 2$, new.
Apparently their is many intelligent people fallowing the chanel . Thanks to all folks , comments help others to find solutions and good ideas !
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From the designs that I've seen for passive thermosyphons, the "cold", (leaving the thermal battery) should be level with the bottom of the coil and the "hot", (or return) should be level with the top of the coil. The length doesn't matter that much as the water in the pipe will just flow slower, (though that does mean that more of the compost heat will be lost to the environment. (You can try both and compare the results.) Remember not to let the warm returning water mix too vigorously with the cold water.
If you look at pineapple houses in the gardens of England from 300 years ago, they had a setup much like yours, (compost next to the greenhouse) and they constructed walls around the compost and added a wooden hinged lid, and then had holes in the brickwork that enabled warmed air to circulate into, (and from) the greenhouse. The advantage of your thermosyphon is that it keeps the smell/bacteria/mice out; the advantage of using air as the conductor is that there isn't any water to freeze and burst pipes, (and makes cycling the compost easier.) It would be possible to combine the two systems into one design and get most of the advantages of both, (but that requires construction in the garden.)
Coil level for thermosyphoning: cold feet & hot head.
Some random suggestions:
1) Try adding thermal mass inside of the coil in the compost pile. This will mediate the thermal generation of the compost so that it doesn't fluctuate much under varying conditions (i.e. external temperature, wind, etc).
2) Dump the pump. The compost pile is generating some amount of heat X. The water moving through the coil removes some of the heat Y from the compost pile. If Y exceeds X you will pull all of the heat out, and eventually the pump will just be circulating cool/cold water. A natural thermosiphon manages this organically so that you get a more or less X=Y balance.
3) Try a deeper tank. By adding greater distance between cool water drawn from the bottom of the water tank and the hot water returned at the top, you'll have a stronger siphon.
4) Try keeping it a closed system with no external water source. If you have a closed loop of water, the compost pile will heat it, and this might be cumulative. But, if you add rainwater continuousl, you will be lowering net temperature (like running cold water into a hot bath).
5) Try running the hot water return from the compost pile through the grow beds before getting to the thermal battery/mass. Might overheat the beds, but might be worth a try.
That's all I can think of, hope it helps.
Great thoughts here. I wonder if a thermosiphon could be initiated with this little total height... Hmmm...
So have you done any of this or is this a thought experiment
Theres alot on here and alot I may not understand about thermodynamics, what a great topic. But I haven't seen anything about thermophillic bacteria yet and thats not a marginal difference. Also, I like your 1. to put the thermal mass inside the compost pile. My other comment was to insulate that tank. I want the ability to light a camping fire within the thermal mass to warm it and a rocket stove bench design to lay on the mass. Other ideas maybe to use plastic jugs (since salt wont corrode them to keep from freezing) and dig in and line the north wall with your insulated plastic salt water buckets, my idea is to link those jugs and circulate the water minimally so that they maintain (what 35 degrees-40 degrees )your greenhouse, perhaps you can run that salt water through a homemade solar collector. My other idea is to put a fresnel lens on your tank of water and see what energy you may capture. Don't use salt and keep the water moving?
from talking with a local pumbing and heating guy about accumulator tanks, I have the impression that to get a thermosiphoning effect, you need a certain amount of height in your tank (he talked about the neighbourhood of about 6 feet for a 500 liter accumulator tank), so that the water temps can stratify .
As stated earlier you need to work on insulating the greenhouse to minimize heat lost. But some things you could look into is to increasing the compost pile as big as you can vertically to increase the heat produced. Than you could paint the water trough black to increase its solar gain. You might even want to look into paint your greenhouse walls black as well.
Bio-char added to a compost seems to increase the heat of the pile. This is my personal observation as well as that of a friend who monitors his compost with a thermometer. It might be worth a try to tweak the system and get every bit of energy out of it you can.
And using the inner circle to feed the compost pile when the temps start to drop. You would have all the outer ring as insulation as well.
Interesting... I should explore that as we make it every day with the wood stove.
@@edibleacres My guess as to why this seems to be so is that the bio-char allows more microbial life to exist in the pile and thereby more heat is generated. I hope you give it a try...
@@edibleacres It will filter out unwanted gases produced by decomposition and become integrated and inoculated as biochar. You would make a complete circle of usage. So many possibilities!
And add a stack of COMFREY! That will bring the temperature up quickly.
Love your dedication to not giving up on a vision!
This is a great idea. My observation: Because the tubing is placed directly within the compost, you will need to completely remove the compost during the summer to reestablish an active pile. If the pile was elevated with a flow-through design to remove finished compost from the bottom, it might make it continuous and much more efficient. It would require a huge amount of work, but your initial design has really gotten my gears turning. Nice job!
Two thoughts. One: dig the stock tank 2 feet into the ground so you solve the Sylphen issue and the water temp warms soil first instead of just the air. Two: run a second hose through your grow beds so the warmer water has direct content to the plants. Hope that helps
Two good ideas, something to consider.
@@edibleacres Hi Sean, so if I understand the video correctly goal 1 heat the beds, goal 2 heat the greenhouse, goal 3 heat the home. Step 1 find more pipe run it through the garden beds (6 to 8 inches deep or what ever is best for plant growth). A simple loop should do. Dump all your heat into the beds. Allow the heat from the beds heat the space. It seems like the tank is just the device you need to circulate the water. Try a different device, a 5 gallon bucket should work you will have less water mass to heat. Returning more heat back to the compost pile (until you can figure out how to do an inline pumping system). If you want to keep the big tank remove a lot of water, enough that is only necessary to keep the pump submerged. Once the tank reaches the same temperature as the input temperature you can then add more water mass to the tank 1 gallon at a time. And as others have said about the tank put a lid on it (until the tank reaches temperature), then again if your trying to heat the space, maybe not a lid. On sunny winter days in February you have already proven the little green house gets toasty warm. Using the air exchangers in combination with the compost pile should do an excellent job on heating the garden bed up.
Do you have some maintenance to do on the greenhouse? Such as plugging up any holes that were missed last year or new ones from this year? Also will you tarp over the compost pile to keep snow off of it? Will you add more material to the pile if you see temperatures fall off or just regularly add fresh material on a weekly/monthly basis? I hope you can find a set of solar evacuated tubes at the re-use store. That would be a really good score. Cheers,
Bill
P.S. I have invested 1 hour on these thoughts, I hope they help you.
@@williamwalter8554 Some people already tried to run hose with hot water in their beds... The problem was that it was drying up the beds... So not a so good idea (according to what I found on the internet) if you want to use the beds for growing. If I can find the video, I'll put a link here. Why trying to re-invent the wheel... ;)
@@cambobby2011 Use an air system with perforations for heating the beds. The warm moist air will condense in contact with the cooler soil and give off it's moisture and heat. Use charcoal and wood chips as a biofilter layer in your beds. All kinds of great ideas out there! You would need to monitor the moisture in your compost pile. A bigger pile would produce more heat and Epstein didn't kill himself.
Great video and aspirations! Seeing that this was from 4 years ago, I'm curious to see where you are with this plan now and how things are going. Looking forward to browsing around your channel!
i put the compost pile inside my small greenhouse. you could cover the pile with plastic and vent it in.
Right, I have seen that done here on YT in Canada and she built it 4 to 5 feet tall with the other measurements being about 4' x 10' x 4' to 5'. By the time it starts cooling off the seedling starts are placed on top for bottom heat. There are some great ideas coming out here!
Too small a space and definitely not wanting those gasses accumulating into our home...
Insulate over the pile but not the side that contacts the greenhouse. That creates 2 positives, 1 your pile will be warmer since it won’t be losing heat to the air and 2 the heat from the pile will be conducted through the wall into the greenhouse.
@The Nech what gasses Im currius
What like nitric oxide or something
The question l ask is not just what will you do to heat the greenhouse, but what will you do to keep that heat from escaping?
Since you have built this greenhouse from scrap parts and windows, it can lose much heat through the single pane glass or poly panels, Etc
Especially as each panel is made of different thickness or R-value materials.
Many of us, (myself included), have added another layer in the winter to our greenhouses, thereby creating a "double paneled" structure.
This can be done by actually covering the greenhouse with another layer of plastic or poly, (which can be attached either inside or outside the greenhouse - depending what works for you) and can also be done by attaching bubble wrap to all the inside glass/plastic surfaces.
I found that the larger 1" bubble wrap works better. Each bubble "traps air" and helps to keep the overall temperature higher in the greenhouse.
(I found the best prices for such were at the big box office stores.)
Many larger commercial hoop houses use 2 layers on their greenhouses, and utilize an air generating fan to blow bewteen the 2 layers, thus allowing the space between the layers to heat up naturally.
The addition of extra poly, plastic or bubble wrap does not affect the light transmission very much. You only lose maybe 5% to 10%.
The other thing that could be done is blankets or curtains of some type. They would be used for the evening hours to try to keep any heat that was generated from escaping. These can be added inside or out - depending on what you have available. (I once used old bed comforters!) Of course, these would have to be moved into place daily - at dusk and then dawn or morning.
It appears that the roof of your greenhouse has some sort of plastic panels, and this may be where most heat would be lost, as heat rises.
The other thing that can be done is a "greenhouse within a greenhouse". Many will do small hoop enclosures over the raised growing beds. This creates a warmer environment for the plants. Many have found that this system works great. Elliot Coleman has done this extensively in Maine, and has used no heat at all...(but "to each his own"!)
I know this did not address your current heating system - but hope it helped give you some more "tools for thought" !!!
Great ideas, all of them. It made me think of a shorter cattle panel greenhouse to cover the compost pile and help create a heat bank to help with the heat sink of the pile.
I understand what you are saying for sure. If this were a standalone structure in the field I would go for it 100% with the extra layers. Attached to our home, it is partially about the look and feel of the space and partly about pure functionality. I believe we'll be making cold frame boxes for the soil itself this winter so we can keep the light and open feel of the space overall. Not ideal from a thermal perspective but aesthetics and sense of space are also part of the equation...
I think the limiting factor on the heat generated is probably the size of your pile, whereas you can be more efficient in capturing the heat that is available by spacing out the piping. If you look at Jean Pain's video, he spaces out the piping throughout the pile to ensure the maximum contact with compost volume, whereas by coiling them together in the cage as you currently do, the volume of compost you are extracting heat from is limited. That's why it runs out of hot water so quickly. As for the thermosyphon/pumping, the only thing that will help is going to be the height of your tank. The same principle as a taller chimney having more draw. I don't think that putting the entire stock tank higher is going to help.
Where can I find Jean Pains' video?
This truly does works i just finished a grass clipping pile lined with pex tubing the pile is 150 degrees. The water is 100 degrees coming out,
Wow!
EdibleAcres I actually showered with the water it was proof of it working
Amazing
I made a hot box to help heat a pool. I found that a smaller pump helped. Also you do need more tubing next time.
That is the theme... longer tube, slower flow.
Miss your videos bc life happens. Glad to see my searches come back to your vids!
Welcome back!
Elevating the tank will help with thermosiphon. Cold water out the bottom warmed water in the top. Since you have a shorter length of piping slow down the flow through it. If it were spread out a little more may help also, it seems from the photo that it is rather closely spaced. I believe insulating the tank will help as well. Maybe running the warmed water through the raised bed with a separate pump and piping set up would help heat the bed directly. Maybe a lower flow pump something like one of those small pond pumps I've got one that does only 65 GPH. This would let you cycle the whole tank maybe once per hour without putting any restrictions on the pump intake or outlet
Wow! What a great idea and well thought out. I'm excited to see how this turns out.
You any plans you would do
If you look at the good life permaculture blog from a nice Tasmanian person they built a big compost heap for heating shower water.
I am wondering if using a 55 gallon plastic drum might be a better tank. It would be easier to raise up on cinder blocks and get the head height for a passive system and preserve some floor space.
Good thinking, something to consider if I can't get this to passively work out.
Or a old water heater
I would say that bringing the total tubing to 100' or more would help. And I agree with other commenters that your flow rate is too fast right now. You might want to also consider building the compost pile up taller. Maybe use some pallets to keep it confined, but built in a way that you can easily remove a side or two to pull the spent material. And then raising the water battery in accordance with the height of the compost and tubing. Adding a 275 gallon or larger tote may also be of value based on the added mass. I got lucky tonight and found this channel completely by accident, as one your wood stove videos started playing automatically. I will def be using that biochar technique with the saw dust from my sawmill, thanks! And I am looking to do some similar things with a property I am building in the next few years, so I really appreciate all the time you've put into sharing the knowledge you've acquired.
Thanks for your kind words and sharing some ideas here! Happy to have you in the community with us! :)
Three things you need more compost you need more tubing and you need a pump that is slower also you need to turn your compost pile often trial and error start off turning it every day then try every other day etc. etc. keep a running chart of your temperatures that way you know how often you need to turn it by the way I love your ideas. You’re on the right track look at a few more RUclips videos and you’ll see just how much to me it takes the heat of water.
Shaun, build a black locust box large enough to bank some leaf insulation around the tank, and a top to stop the heat from leaving would also be wise. And yes, I agree plumbing in a return and over flow is a great idea; however your pipe would benefit from some black paint or tape off of the rainwater catchment tank. Most importantly, I think you will find David Pagan Butler ideas on "Enhanced Bubble Pumps for an Organic Pool" or "Organic Pools airlfit pump system for a koi filter" very interesting. I believe you will use some of his ideas to make the system function great this year as you figure out the finer details.
As far as heating the house, I believe your pile would have to be much larger to achieve that. However, some black screening used in a solar air heater banked against the house, but inside the green house, or on the sliding glass door could look something like "Solar air heater in Northern Quebec" or Best Passive Solar Heating - Made Easy... and that works!!!" All "links" found on YT.
Now here is my question: Sasha, when are you going to post another cooking video; soon I hope !?!
Just ran across this today, it would be worth a view; "How To Make Solar Water Heater/geysers Under 10$". It is not exactly the way you are going, however the end result looks to be good.
A lower volume pump gives the water more time in compost pile to warm
A slower pump and snake the pipe crisscross between the ground and the compost pile which will allow the earth to become a thermal mass. That will make it easier to turn the pile later. It will disperse the heat exchange better and will not try and take heat from just one small area in the pile.
My suggestion is to enclose and or insulate the compost first. Within reason to maintain a functional compost.
Second: Consider getting a car style radiator set up inside your house with a fan behind it and your inlet and exit pipes plumbed into it inline with your temperature activated pump. This could be your heat transfer method.
All the best.
Alex.
@@alexemery3045 wow great idea. Definitely throwing this in my back pocket!
Thanks
I have no knowledge in this area, but I can say...good luck in your efforts!
Ev1 seems to think that composting needs to be done on a flat surface. Why not composting in a long, sloped box (45 degree angle?) with a corrugated steel sheet acting as a bottom and a heat transfer medium to either tubes or a big tub filled with water below? Of course the structure needs to be insulated, but loading fresh compost in on the top and removing the processed stuff from the bottom, would enable a constant heat production. All the piles with a tubing inside cause a lot of work and have a great variation in heat production and may wear out well before the end of the cold season.
That would be an interesting idea but hard to visualize as functional...Heat rises, so the collector being below the compost I'm not sure I understand how that would function...
@@edibleacres Hot air and hot water molecules rise, but infrared radiation spreads to all directions just like light. You can test that by moving to or from a wood stove. The difference is that air and water are a medium and infrared radiation functions without a medium. Light, including infrared radiation from the sun, travels to earth in a vacuum, no transport medium needed. So the proposed corrugated steel sheet will act like the vertical side of a radiator sending out thermal radiation. Another example: a heat lamp above young chickens. I hope this explains some heat transfer principles.
At the moment I'm extending the thermal mass in my passive solar greenhouse, but I have no intention to cover the concrete pavers with wood chips, these would insulate the floor and reduce the amount of available thermal mass and increase the temperature swings in the GH. I water my plants in the GH subsoil, because a wet surface will have a higher evaporation, extracting heat from the soil and transfer that heat to the coldest places in the GH where it will condensate. It's also an attempt to minimize the moisture level in the air and reduce the risk of fungal problems. Heat transfer by evaporation and condensation is another principle. At the moment my growbags, inner brick footings of the GH and water bottles are white in order to maximize the amount of light in the GH. Besides temperature, lack of light is the second big problem during winter in a GH. The soil level in my GH is a foot above floor level, in order to keep the cold air away from the plants during the night. As you might have guessed: cold air sinks.
Always great to watch your vids. Best wishes greetings from Holland.
This is a great idea, I agree with the suggestions to increase tube length and decrease flow rates on the pump, also you are losing a lots of heat to the environment, if the pill were covered you would increase heat and provide additional space to add another thermal transfer location with a solar collector like you guys have created in the past.
Love this video. There are two concepts heat capture and heat use. What if you you deploy a smaller drip tubing to deploy the heat? Surface area must be considered in both concepts.
We are exploring this year in having a pex circuit buried in the garden as well to run the warm water through...
@@edibleacres thanks for sharing your journey. I plan to copy several techniques in 2022!
We use a 100ft 3/4in hdpe coil to heat our shower. The pile is pretty small, it just barely covers the coils. The hot water lasts only about 3 minuets. The hottest we’ve got the water is 110. degrees. Since our pile is so small I have to add grass and turn the pile once a week.
Wow! Lots of information in these comments. I picked up a free poly pipe coil on the side of the road today. I like the thermosiphon approach, too, but if that doesn't work try a used car windshield washer pump...they're cheap and the flow would be much slower. I'm experimenting with all this stuff too. It's all an experiment. I currently have 200' of poly coil in a compost heap that I started to heat a small hot tub. I do compost inside my small dog kennel greenhouse, I pour chicken poop tea on it from time to time.
Make your heap as big as possible to avoid heat drops in the pile !
The thermal siphoning system circulates itself through a coil wrapping of the tube in your compost pile. The heated water is slowly pushed up through the coil. You would put a water adapter in the bottom of the galvanized tank for the coil to pull from and a top water adapter for your return warm water to flow back into the tank. It will flow a lot slower, but more constant. Keep up the good work this knowledge is learned by doing mostly.
Be simple, put a spigot about 6 inches below the top of the tank and run a line from there to your passive irrigation, honestly it could be a directly connected drip line, just make sure the spigot is far enough down to offset the maximum input of water from outside sources. You can use the spigot size to offset that as well, but that may impact pressure to the passive system, you could also just make a hole above the spigot for emergencies, like the hole on the front of your bathroom sink, that feeds to a hose and spills into the garden.
I knew a guy in Germany in the 80's who had two open 15'x25'x6'deep concrete lined pits with a ramp for a front loader tractor. He had miles of poly tubing in it and he dumped in tons of fresh wood chips 6 feet deep (owned acres of woods). This system heated his entire homestead with a big family including hot water for about year or two. You just need to scale it up.
That sounds amazing!
There's some math to be done in terms of how many BTUs your pile can produce and how much of that you can (literally!) siphon off without stalling out the pile. Remember Jean Pain was working with piles that were something like ten times the volume you're using ;) Whether you would actually get more heat with a longer coil or not really depends on how much heat that pile is generating. there's probably some math that can be used to figure out BTUs based on the average temperature of the pile (throughout its volume, not over time) and the mass of the pile, but I'm not familiar with those kinds of calculations ;) As it's not currently practical to add another 60 feet of tubing into that coil, you might try restricting the rate of flow, giving the water more time in the pile. Putting a spray nozzle on the hose back into the tank and shutting it down to a trickle should let you test whether the limit is transfer of heat or actual amount of heat produced by the pile...
Sure. The pile is mostly cellulose, so figure 8,000 BTUs per pound. The tank is 100 gallons, so 800 BTUs to raise it 1 degree F. For every pound in the pile, it raises the tank 10 degrees, once.
It definitely seems the limiting factor is the heat transferring into the tube in a timely manner, not the total amount of heat available to the tube. I need slower flow through, which is why I'm hoping to crack the code on a gentle thermosiphon for the whole thing...
@@edibleacres If you are correct that you are heat transfer limited, then you want to increase the flow rate, not decrease it. Heat transfer is proportional to the the temperature difference (and R-value and area of the transfer surface), so you want the coldest water in the tube that you can get, which means faster flow rate.
@@CorwynGC You seem to forget there is a limited amount of heat available. Also, you must retain heat, or reintroduce it during the day with solar heated air, for the microorganisms to keep feeding and producing heat as byproduct. The pile is not nearly big enough for that climate, but compost heat is ideal for the North East or areas with little winter sun.
@@markroeder2491 Not sure why you would say that when my first response gave a formula for figuring out exactly how limited the amount of heat available was.
You are on the right track-we would use a similar technique when we would lose a pump in our heating system in a building I worked in in Manhattan. It was 21 stories tall and we would use the siphoning affect and a check valve to be able to circulate the domestic water until we could get the pump back online. With the correct temperature, diameter of tubing, length of tubing, and a check valve you should be able to get the job done. Also, remember that if you’re going to use radiant heating in the floor, it doesn’t have to be very hot to heat the entire house- I believe you should seriously investigate the temperatures you need to achieve to be able to heat the house; if I remember correctly it’s only about 70° (water temperature ) but you need to verify that. Radiant floor heating is not my specialty.
Appreciating your time and knowledge here!
Any heat you gain is going to escape right through that thin glass, make a bag greenhouse inside your greenhouse with 2 mil poly, to keep that heat inside. Staple the plastic sheet right to the frames of the windows, and it will leave an air gap that will give you R5 insulation as well as sealing off any cold drafts. Total cost: $20 for one 10x100ft roll
Doctor Medkit exactly what I was thinking! Any energy that was being transferred was just being lost.
Do NOT try to use an IR thermometer to measure the temp of water.
The limiting factor is the amount of heat generated by the organisms, not the amount of tubing. In fact, if you extract too much heat, you will kill the heat source altogether, and the pile will freeze, and won't thaw until spring.
Thermo-siphoning will not work without some height on the tank.
Longer tubing will not significantly affect the heat transfer. And if you need more heat transfer, you can increase the flow rate.
That small pile will not make enough heat to keep the greenhouse warm, your house is right out. Think about how long a pile of wood like that would last you in your woodstove, that is the maximum you could ever get out of the pile.
If you want to talk more about this, let me know, I am willing to trade energy advice, for seedlings etc.
I agree with this assesment and I am a professional in ecofriendly housing. There is not enough material to heat, etc.
This will keep warm for a month or so but come january the pile will be exhausted.
You may try to use humanure on the center pile to keep it going for a little more, but there is only so much energy in organic matter.
Your system is very good : it is just a seadon extension, not a real heating solution in freezing climates.
Attaching your hose at the bottom of the tank and just set the tank on some blocks a foot or 2 will passively move the hotter water out the top hose. The higher the tank the more presser and the faster the flow. Good luck
This old house has a RUclips series called future house and I just watched a segment about thermal batteries: in it the coil is bigger and concentric. You should check it out. I’m really interested in how this works out
Please post a link to it for other folks to enjoy too...
Ah yes, a flat concentric coil instead of spring coil would acquire heat faster and, after initial heat up, transfer more evenly in this nondistilling use.
Do they make mini ram-pumps? Any flow could get pushed by the pump, which would raise the stock tank level, which would force flow, which would get pushed by the pump, etc.
They do make mini ram-pumps, but they require, (as so all ram pumps) a constant flow of water to power them... which I don't see in this set up.
I was thinking on doing the same thing, but for a shed, not a greenhouse. For starters I acquired a trampoline frame to hold my compost... More supplies as I can... I am thinking of poly piping layed out more on a flat plain...
Oh, and I too am in the finger lakes area...
Trampoline frame, sounds like a nice place to start with a design! Good luck to you..
Just keep running it until it is back up to temperature. You took 40 degree water and ran it through hot hoses, of course it's going to cool off until the water in the buck and coils become the same temperature in both. Then set up a timer to run every 30 mins or so for 5 mins and it will maintain the temperature you want.
A timer is in order if I'm going to keep with the pump for sure...
I have experienced something similar. Look up outdoor bathtubs. The ones I have been exposed to involve a stock tank and a metal coil that has a fire built in it. Water circulates purely from heat.
I have been heating my greenhouses for years with compost. I however use air and not water. The warmed air aids in managing humidity. My system is based on Jeanne Paines system. If you would like to collaborate with me on some of this, feel free to reach out anytime!
Would it be feasable/more efficient to put the compost pile inside the greenhouse, eliminating all other components and using 100% of the pile heat?
Some of the gases generated by the composting process are irritants, dangerous, or both. Concentrated indoors, the ammonia smell can be overpowering if the system turns even slightly anaerobic.
@@gregorymarlett1277 seen a guy run a fan through the compost pile to return air to it and cut out the ammonia. Could be worth a try. But I like better the idea of using the compost pile as both a thermal barrier and a heat source from outside.
Your videos are amazing, thank you so much for putting the time you do into them. I know it's been a year since you made this video but...
Maybe build a small water tower in your green house and place your cold water tank below it? Extra filtration here would prolong the life of your pump, you could still use gravity but I would use it to bring the filtered hot water to the top and let gravity feed it from your cold water tank into your tubing.
Off the wall idea, what if you were able to run a static metal pipe through the center of a mounted turntable drum? It would be turntable if the pile stalled and if the pump is still only working to bring the hot water up it... I live in the desert and don't know how insulated it would have to be for you but it's fun. 😄
Jean Pain heated a greenhouse to 35 degrees c., - 90 degrees f. for one whole year solely by a compost pile made from forest litter and other forest debris. The heap was around twenty tonnes in weight, and the greenhouse was built on a bank about one metre - three feet, higher than the compost pile. He used about 100 mm, - four inch, agricultural pvc pipe connected by plastic elbows. the heap was rectangular and If I remember correctly Jean took two turns of the pipe through the compost pile and then into the greenhouse.
There were no fans or pumps, it was strictly thermosyphoning from the heap into the top of the end wall of the green house, and the cold air went back to the compost from a return pipe near the floor. Temperatures got below freezing, but the greenhouse kept warm regardless of the weather. This works because of the volume of the heap. I have done many years of experiments, and it is necessary to have a heap of four to six tonnes at least, to make the output worth while. Even a five tonne heap, although it can reach temperatures of 65 degrees c, will only last three months or so, and the temperature will steadily decrease after the first week. It is good enough for two people to have a hot shower everyday for three or four months and with enough hot water to do the dishes etc., but for really useful amounts, go for twenty tonnes.
This takes quite a lot of scavenging for organics, but imagine how good you will feel when you harvest seven tonnes of pure worm castings a year later, after growing food all winter, or heating your home for free. Currently we lose billions of tonnes of forest litter to uncontrolled fire, and organic waste is everywhere waiting to be used.
As I said, I have done over twenty years of experimental heaps intended for driving methane digestors, and am delighted to answer any questions if I can.
I've never measured compost by weight, so I really have no idea what this or other piles weigh! I can get a decent sense of the dimensions of the pile but have never thought about them in weight!
Clearly I'm sold on the idea of collecting and working with as much organic matter as possible. We send most of it through our chicken composting system but bulking out a larger system would be compelling to me. The limiting factor is our small site and trying to figure out the best relative location to put things to be able to have a large enough pile close enough to where we need the warmth/water delivered! It'll evolve over time I'm sure...
@@edibleacres Please be mindful of building a big pile next to your living quarters. Fire is a possibility when you start building bigger piles. They can dry so fast and spontaneously combust!
You've probably already thought of this but...What about placing the compost pile inside the greenhouse? Then you wouldn't need the water tank, hoses, etc. You lose some productive square footage in the greenhouse but it simplifies the process...I think???
You are correct. This is exactly what I am doing now. I have a compost pile right inside the greenhouse to warm it.
It's the best scenario but , decomposition will generate compounds that are not healthy for humans in close space ( CO2,CH4 ,SO2 ...) And will smell funky . For a greenhouse for plants only it will be very good idea to get the pile inside. In bonus plants will love the extra CO2 !
I appreciate the idea with that, but the greenhouse space is small and I wouldn't want the compounds/smells from the decomposition....
@@edibleacres Totally get it! Thank you for your response and for your wonderful channel.
I don't have room in my greenhouse for a water tank so I made a u shaped piece of 3 inch gas vent pipes put the pipes in the compost pile and ran the pipe through the back wall of the greenhouse at a 45 degree angle, heat rises and comes from the compost pile into the greenhouse, The hot air rising from the pipes creates airflow from inside the greenhouse through the compost and back into the greenhouse. I get air at temps up to 120 degrees using this method. I use a small fan to circulate the hot air around the interior of the greenhouse. This will keep the greenhouse around 50 - 60 degrees on a cold night.
That sounds like a great solution you've come up with, kudos!
Hi, very interesting to view a home version of this type of system 👍. I appreciate the duplicate centigrade temp you include in your video.
The overflow idea: could you combine it with a wicking bed system that has its own overflow to prevent overwatering?
The wicking idea is possible, not sure if it would be too complex... So far this has worked pretty nicely. If we get heavy rain I use it as an opportunity to dip into the tank and water heavily the other areas. So far so good...
EdibleAcres: thanks for that 👍.
I love everything you do, and the way that you share it. Thankyou
Very sweet sentiment, thanks so much for sharing it.
A couple of radiators salvaged from a wrecking yard or abandoned vehicles can be connected one above the other to make an effective solar hot water system. (Make sure they don't leak, and paint them matt black if they aren't already painted.)
200 litre Plastic Barrels, painted black to absorb heat can be placed along the back of a greenhouse wall to absorb heat throughout the day and will radiate the heat back out during the night. The two systems could be combined to provide a storage battery of heat, or even be used for an outdoor shower.
Cool thoughts here, thank you..
I would put pump on programmable timer. On 1 hr off hr.
Good idea if the possibility to get the pile bigger is not an option ! It will prevent complete heat drainage in the compost !
@@erector5953 and Celtic Bear a thermostat could be programed to shut the pump off after falling to a certain temp too.
@@cgregornik it's better but not cheaper .
@@erector5953 check out "Organic Pools airlfit pump system for a koi filter" I love this idea. Okay, a cheaper solution could be a toggle switch ran inside the house for a quick cycle every so often. But, I question the cycle not happening on its own if the temp rises enough anyway? My concern is the back flow if the pile cools off, right!?!
A smart switch connected to your phone
Closed loop at right angles, coils and out pipe completely full of water and insulated. (Bubble tape packaging and duct tape works great) like a pump the water must be primed and free of air bubbles.
with my father we used to make raised beds about 0,5m height directly from manure with top layer of compost+soil. it was heating the beds directly from bottom plus heating the greenhouse air from feb. to end of april. would not last through all winter though, but you have not so much sunlight either to grow much. it could strech our season for selling vegetable seedling 40cm high in beginning of may. laborous to remove spent manure by end of summer though.
I've heard of and seen examples of this before... Seems really smart!
Basically for a passive system you will need bigger pile bigger tube and warm water rises in the compost and goes up( tank higher then compost pile) think I saw snow so you need 4 + cubic meters. For heating the house as well you need much more. But for accurate heating you need a small pump to be sure the heating works smoothly.
Also the system you have where the pipes are fixed on the metal structure you need to think of the decomposition of the compost pile. therefore it's necessary that the pipe can accompany the decomposition and fall down otherwise sooner or later you will see that the top will be exposed because the material decomposed. Also you need to look into hot composting.Using woodsips from green branches at a 9 to 1 ratio (1 manure for 9 of woodships)I have a pile that last 1 year constantly providing heat for shower and washing dishes etc..
The thermo-siphon idea you have is pretty good. It will self-regulate itself because it will only move as fast as the heat moves into the water. As long as the water entering the bottom of the loop is cooler than the compost pile, it should work. Just make sure that the cool water pipe entry is about the same level as or sllightly higher than the bottom of the coil in the compost pile. Oh, and the cool water should always enter the compost pile at the bottom of the coil. The hot water will move "uphill" as it were.
I am hoping to accomplish just this. Probably some adjustments need to be made!
Bigger pile and more hose plus you are moving water pretty fast at 50 gal per minute. If you raised tank up and at bottom connect cold from pile and then have water just circulate slower it will stay hotter. You could also use a small rampump if you had two tanks one high and one low when water from top tank flows down
I didn't read all the comments but one thing i did notice is you are probable loosing a great deal of your heat from the open top tub . I think you have a great idea there , one thing you might try is using a black drum drum inside , the drum will help to draw in heat as well as radiate heat from the water . I am thinking about using a set up very similar to that .
Interesting idea there, I will keep them in mind.
Paint the basin and exterior water tank black. This will heat up both a little when the sun hits it. Also have a tube or vent directly from pile to green house
What is the state of the underground thermal battery and is there a way to combine the two?
My first impression about the compost heater is that the pump is moving too much water too quickly. How can you dial down the pump?
You also need to address the heat loss through single pane glass.
What you have is an "open" system at the moment. You could put a heat exchanger on the end of your tubing which would be submerged in the water to make it more efficient. Then you would have a "closed" loop system. You can get an immersion chiller from a brewing supply place for about $50. They chill wort for homebrewing but it works the same way as a heat exchanger, it is a heat exchanger. Then insulate your tank with foam and close the top up with foam too. You'd have to plumb the pump inline but its not hard to do. Then put it on a timer, maybe run it a couple of minutes/hr or just turn it on every so often and you could keep your tank fairly hot I imagine, insulated. Raise it up and you can plumb a pipe into that fitting and let it gravity feed to wherever you need hot water. You'd have a chance at heating your home if you had tubing in the floor slab but that's the only way I know to use water for space heating, radiant heat. You essentially have a small water heater using an alternative fuel.
I don't have a technical observation, just a commonsensical one- the choice isn't between a shorter length of reused tubing or a longer length of new tubing--you could always get additional reused tubing as it becomes available, and get towards the idea length. Especially since you wisely put it in so that it's relatively accessible.
Drill a hole in the side,pass a uniseal in, a PVC pipe of the right diameter, an elbow up and pipe to set the overflow level.
On the outside, you can build a minifold out of T Union and PVC pipes to distribute your water to the beds. You probably want ball valves to make sure the water distributes into the different beds.
The sizing of the pipe is the real issue here: how much flow do you expect?
Smart idea to embed the poly pipe in metal. Hopefully it will protect the pipe from pitchfork punctures.
That is part of the design idea, since I am trying to think of how the compost can be removed later, as well!
@@edibleacres will be intersted to see if you decide to cover/insulate the pile in the worst of winter. I do this, but maybe I'm wasting my time. ;-)
Very informative discussion!
Wow cool lol mean warm lol... A new buddy was looking for ways to warm a green house this is a great idea.... My uncle told me once if it was a closed circuit the hot / cold water would naturally circulate it??
OK I get it I'm watching this a few times my brain don't work too well with this stuff but really want to learn.... Very cool
This could work to add a bit extra heat to animal pens outdoors or even wrapped around water dishes to keep them from freezing... Ideas to grow on this is why I love RUclips the ideas are shared back and forth
Dig a pit. Build your compost with pipe ( WIDER PIPE THAN YOU HAVE ) in the pit. The pipe taking COLD should be LOW in your greenhouse. The pipe which delivers the HOT should be higher in the greenhouse. HOT air rises. COLD air sinks. It will automatically deliver the heat. No water necessary.
Paul Wheaton does this, I think it answers a lot of your questions
Do you have any concerns that drawing the heat out of the compost pile can cause it stop generating heat? Can you "drain the battery" so much it stops working? EDIT: thanks punky that is what I meant, drawing too much heat and stopping decomposition.
The pump don't need tho use many power . I care battery and a 400 watts solar panels should be good .
@Void I think Butch means the heat "battery" of the compost pile. If you pull too much heat out of the compost it will cool and halt the decomposition that is generating the heat. I'm currently experimenting with heating my greenhouse via compost and that is a genuine concern.
@@punkyroo sorry i was confused with "drain the battery" in @Butch sentence . My background in electrical engineering triggered me!
It makes sense that it's probably the heat generated in the compost getting to much drained out .
I'm not concerned with that. Right now the pile is RIPPING at 160F and loosing a TON of heat to the atmosphere, so I'd like to reclaim that. I think if the pile was running at 80F I'd be happier with the health of the compost it makes actually.
I know this is late in the posting game, but...
It would be a bit of work, but imo I feel it would be worth it.
Invest in the line, most site you can pick up 1,000' of line for $300.
Excavate your greenhouse and lay the line in using the perpetual figure 8 coil (like used in geothermal heating methods), then rebuild your garden beds on top. The thermal cycling of the water should more than warm the soil without burning your veggies.
I built a horseshoe coil for my compost for easy clean out. Same principal, but stake out your coil core in a U shape. My bed is roughly 15'sq with a 10' U in center using 30 pieces of rebar for staked frame (salvaged from neighborhood construction sites) that I gave a good rustoleum coating for longevity. I then wove the water lines through the U in wide swaths, back and forth to avoid kinking, until I had a large billowy looking horseshoe. The more line, the more water, the more hot water. The line at the bottom of the U is the intake, the line at the top is output. THEN, I took some salvaged 3" french drain with the weed cloth wrap and laid it on the ground around the outside of the U with each end protruding from compost containment. This is for aeration, reducing need for turning. Pack compost in all around.
Once a year, I remove the front panel, remove the compost easily from in and around the U, give it a rinse, repack and repeat in 12 months.
With the footage of the line, I would use a 100gph water pump for a steady cycle and routing it through the tank is more than feasible. I kind of like the idea of it acting as a humidifier/snowmelt/rain catch storage. I have mine running into a salvaged 30 gal water heater.
For the overflow, if you want to invest a little more, a 5 gal bucket with another small gph water pump that has a float switch and a misting line for wide/even dispersion of the water.
Does the compost need to be watered frequently or does it need to be dry and protected agains rain ? Looking forward to your reply . thanks
Try raising the water storage above the height of the compost (thermal dynamics) should bring the heat without moving the water. I would also suggest using a black barrel to hold the water and produce more heat. I believe the trough open top with surface area would release heat to fast. Or cover the trough and paint it black. Thanks for sharing the video
Good ideas here.
this seems like a geothermal idea but your using the limited power of a compost pile. Your best bet would be to do a much larger pile that is in a pit. Putting it deeper into the ground will allow it to benefit from the geothermal portion as well as the composting heat. I would make a trench 5 feet wide and as long as I could, and probably 2-3 feet deep, lay your lines and fill it with compost materials.
Yes, I would try this too. 5 feet wide, 10-15 feet long, 1-3 feet deep trench with pipe, and build a 5 feet tall, compost pile to cover the entire trench.
2 Ideias
Try to insulate the ground, maybe with some kind of thermal blanket
Try to put a good layer of compost, then a flat layer of your tubing, then the rest of the compost, or your tubing can maybe be "scarted" more through the compost pile
Thanks for these notes, I appreciate it.
Time the pump by temperature in outside thermometer so you won't kill your compost.
Have you tried to install a gate valve to slow your water flow through the compost so it can pick up more heat as a temporary fix?
I wouldn't want to restrict the flow so the pump pushes harder. I think I need a smaller pump perhaps.
Worked for 30 years in a paper plant. We used this method to help regulate flows on a temporary system to set how things performed before making it permanent. Most pump will handle the slight restriction. Wouldn’t go beyond 50% closure of the valve. Looks like a low psi pump so should be ok. Just a thought. Love your videos. Keep up the good work.
you need difrent size tubes and a ball for a seal on the smaller tube make a one way valve like in a coffee pot.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, would be good to insulate that metal tank of water and put a lid on it to maintain the temp.
Also, the water flow rate from the compost seems too high. Maybe the pump voltage can be lowered?
Copper coil pipe would be ideal inside the compost pile, but that's not the usual kind of thing you'll find cheap. Otherwise, see if you can find some old car radiators.
Have you ever tried making a biogas digester. Now that is the way to go. Ive built three home digesters which make biogas to power a small gas generator. food scrapes which make power .
I think we have too cold a climate here to do this effectively outside, where it is safer. I am interested in the concept but need to research more how to have it work in a cold climate.
Hi, I have just watched this and wondered how you have got on with it?
It worked moderately well, but not wonderfully... Needs more improvement for sure!
I think yes raise it four or five feet on a simple stand or whatever you could create and then expand your compost pile maybe enrich it with other kinds of scrapes and what not?
wondering if you could run the whole system inversed. use the water tank like a boiler and keep it heated in the pile, then radiate the heat out through the pipes into the green house kinda like a floor heating system.
That's a really interesting twist on the concept, I like it!
A bit late to the party here. I've constructed heat transfer coils for brewing, and I'm fascinated with thermosiphons. As others have pointed out, a low flow volume (ie of siphon) will help even out the temperature gradient between pile and coil. My first thought is that the coil is wound too tightly. For a given length of tube, a wider coil with fewer turns & a wider turn radius would allow the coil to extract heat from a larger volume of the pile. Finding spacers that you can add between turns would help this.
Another comment re siphon: air bubbles will kill it (stop flow), and they're a pain to purge. It looks like that bilge pump is the perfect tool to purge. You can also use a pump to push a piece of sponge that's slightly larger than pipe through the pipe to push through bubbles (this may take some trial and error).
I might be able to advise re specific pipe fittings, if you have questions there...
Thanks for the thoughtful and informed ideas here. I appreciate them.
Move all and spread the compost to all the floor space of the greenhouse, it will breakdown slower and heat the surrounding block and via convection to the soil, you may need to turn.
I'm concerned about how long you can depend on the pile to keep producing heat. If the pile stops providing sufficient heat in the middle of January, how can you recharge it without your greenhouse taking a major hit until a new pile gets started?
Leaf litter and urine packed into the center, it would heat back up fast and is completely doable as long as you can access the center of the pile; until that point urine an leaf layers would super charge any pile.
I could imagine it stalling mid-winter. This is a test run and I will hopefully rebuild at some point when we are getting closer to seed starting season...
@@edibleacres The thing about a compost pile is... you can always add more material especially as it breaks down. Every month or so add on two new feet of material boom heat recharged. Cheers,
Bill
And it's insulated & will help hold the heat in
DIY yourself a concrete water cistern that will be partially buried into the ground . that will give you the thermal mass you need beriot halfway in the ground. You will be heating the soil and it will turn it into a thermal battery and the heat will store in the side walls of the concrete. Also tripling the size of your coil to a minimum of 300 feet. and put in the coil closer to the ground in spreading it out closer to the ground instead of stacking it taller.... You can also cut a hole in the side of the greenhouse to let the compost pile directly vent the hot air into the greenhouse just put some chicken wire over the whole. It will passively let the hot air come into the greenhouse along with the water heat.
I'm a little late to this video but I have a couple of suggestions.
To gather the most heat from your pile why not have the hose/ pipe running all throughout the pile, not just in a coil in the middle. imagine the layout of under floor heating pipes but in your compost pile.
The second might need a bit more work and a different set up. You could put the water tank in the middle of the compost pile. Water is obviously good at storing heat so once it got going and the water was warm it shouldn't have any detrimental effect on the internal heat of the pile. Downsides are that the tank may be a bit harder to access and you would need to make sure it was covered in a good layer come winter if you get cold temperatures that might freeze the water.
There could be a good reason why you haven't tried either of these, I'm no expert its just he first thing that came to my mind.
The kitty wants to come out and play. =)
Why don't you use a solar water heater? Seems like it would be more consistent with the heat. I like the idea of catching the rain water and trying to heat it though.
Some days there is no sun... like the majority of them in that area. Out west we have lots of winter sun, so it is much more feasible.
How about putting a temporary greenhouse over the compost pile and insulation around the sides? Connect it to the permanent greenhouse so there can be heat exchange with large air tubes instead of a small water pipe. Basically, a souped up version of what you had before with the mesh vents. I know enclosing it would mean more work keeping it watered, but it's a thought.
If your holding tank was taller you would have a stronger temperature gradient and better passive flow.... If you could find a way to heat the last couple feet of hose flowing into the tank that would help, even insulate it with a couple layers of clear bubble wrap... The sun would heat it up and drive circulation
I could imagine a taller tank being helpful here for sure.
Among other ideas, one thing that I tried last summer (I started a small pile, probably twice as big as yous for experimenting) is that I kept some urine and when the pile was pouting out less warmth, I poured as much urine (appox. 10 2 liters bootles) in the middle of the pile. The next day, I always noticed (with a thermometer) a BIG raise in temperature in the middle of the pile. So it's like putting fire wood in the wood stove... II's 100% free and 100% organic!!! So rather than flushing it in the toilet... you can use it with great results!
Yep... Believe me, you don't have to sell me on this aspect. I've been saving and using urine for gardening/etc for 12 years. This pile was kicked off with 3 gallons added right around the coil!
@@edibleacres Another good idea that I love is in that link here: ruclips.net/video/ZD_3_gsgsnk/видео.html . I'm only in the ''conception'' stage for my project. I knew you would probably already knew about these ideas, but just in case. I also want to tell you that I love so many of your ideas. I just want to be sure of my concept before I go ahead with it. And I also want to be sure that I take full advantage of all the new techology and using as much salvaged and recycled stuff as possible. Good day.
Another qst that I wonder: If you are not using the pump and the solar panel during the winter, why not just keep using it in your green house. I always try to apply the KISS concept (Keep it simple stupid). To often, we look for best solution possible, we have a passion and we try to reach for the BEST WAY which too often is too complicated and complex (me too, too often!!!).
All over China I've seen water heaters on rooftops, just using the sun to bake barrels of water for in-home use during the warmer months. Don't know if that could help
That is the ''Jean Pain '' formula , heating with compost. I love that system too. I wanna try it too next year, but on a bigger scale. I've been searching on that subject on the internet for a while now and I'll try mixing it up with some new ideas (that I got from the internet). I think that Ihave a few good ideas for you and everybody watching your channel. I'll be back to you soon on that subject. Tks.
Excited to see your notes when you have them to share!
@@edibleacres I already posted a few quick ideas on your channel, this morning but I will share many more with you a bit later. I have so many good ideas that I want to share with you guys and expecting good feed back / good ideas from people like you. I think that on your channel, we all have the same passion. I've already learned SSOOOO many great ideas on your channel (among others). I've been looking at so many videos on so many different subjects on RUclips for quite a long time now. And I want to add that I LOVE your philosophy of life guys. For a long time, I thought I was alone to have a dream like yours. But with internet today, I've discovered that there is a lot of nice people in the world who share my philosophy of life. And I also LOVE the way both of you talk in your videos, I love the tone of your voice guys, it's so relaxing. I feel some real passion in what you're doing. It connects with me 100%. Also I've been raised on a milk farm, in a family of 10 kids with little $$$ on a tight budget all the time. And I was the only one in the family who was spending SSSOOOO much time alone with all the animals on the farm. I always felt good in nature for surrounded with animals. So when you post ''chicken time'' videos it connects with me 100%. For sure, my project will be different from yours but at the same time, with so many similarities I can't wait to share my thoughts with you guys. I see it as a kind of GOOD AND POSITIVE brain storming!