Your compost sytem is so great! This is so smart during winter. Even though straw breaks down fast, especially with chicken menure. I believe that it makes great aeration and insulation during winter. Either for worms and breaking down compost. 👍👍
Having the compost pile suspended as is will aid in oxygen circulation. The rising heat will draw cooler oxygenated air through the pile. I feel this is unrealized and a bonus, perhaps. Love the channel, love my plants i got from your nursery, keep up the good work!
This system seems so evolve everytime , now with 2 ways of heat transformation , air filtration und nitrogen fixation through charcoal , water/nutrient catchment to water the compost in a cycle with even more nutrients . its so simple , the solutions and adatives feel so obvious yet the ideas are new. love your videos , always an inspiration
One thing that just occurred to me-I'm going to bet that your elevated compost pile is much more effective at heating than the compost pile that's on the ground. A thing to remember is that the ground is-to all intents and purposes,an infinite heat sink. Thus,a compost pile on the ground will always lose some of the heat it generates to that ground. And while warming up the ground under the space isn't going to hurt,since there's a lot more ground than compost,it won't help much. An elevated compost pile,will,I'm guessing,be a much better solution for heating a space,since all of the heat that it generates is (theoretically) available to heat that space. This is a fascinating experiment! My compliments to the both of you,and my thanks for going to the trouble to document the results and share them.
It wasn't intentional at all to make the 'hovering compost' more efficient, it just seemed like a solution to the funky problem of a mini pond in that corner, but I bet you're right and it ends up cooking cleaner and longer!
Do you have any friends who have a FLIR camera or something similar to get some timelapse of thermal data? I get that you're usually an intuitive operator, but with some hard numbers and a visualization you could really tweak this to your liking! I've had similar ideas and am very appreciative of your investigating it and sharing what you learn for all of us.
Great idea, it may work to keep the compost pile outside like the greenhouse opening more room in the tunnel. You would have to insulate the pile and the pipes between the high tunnel and the pile. I think moving the pile out of the tunnel would also have an added benefit of feeling more zen or minimalist. Defiantly easier on the eyes and less cramped. It would also open up the flow in the high tunnel should you put a door on the other side.
Thermal siphoning should naturally circulate your fluid, might need extra coils within the pile though. Copper would transfer the heat better, cruise some new construction refuse piles, should be able to score a couple 3ft lengths to splice in.
I know copper would be way better but I need to be able to harvest the compost later and I can't imagine I'd be able to do so without dinging up the copper...
Try using old bed sheets to cover your veggies in the green house the plastic sweats in the warmth and a sheet wont hold the moisture in but will protect from freezing much better. i did that i had fresh tomatoes thru January here in south eastern washington state. and mine weren't even in a green house. just a protected spot between the house and a shed. try it see if it works in the green house too. Thanks for sharing i like the heating idea to me is one of the best free energy we have.
I thought that gap at the hoop house window looked like it was the perfect size to accommodate those gray foam pipe wrap insulation... the ones that look like mini pool noodles. Also thought that the next time I am at the cheap tool outlet store I should pick up some moving blankets for covering beds in the future. And it has been years since I read Daycreek Journals description about building a passive radiant heat system in a sand bed. I need to refresh that in my mind. As always.... you get my mind churning.
You're planning to fit the barrel next to the compost, let it radiate into the water then circulate it? Sounds like a doable plan if u can get a good stable temp
How wide is the opening to the high tunnel ( side with door)? I see that 3 cow panels are bent over with perhaps a 6 ft clearance at highest? Your projects are looking good. I like that you are starting seeds already outside. WTG How high are the side, wood part that you attach the panels to? Do you know the yardage of the poly? Do you have a video with the details all laid out?
Opening is a little tight, maybe 2+ feet wide but not much more. Height at center is 6'2" ruclips.net/video/1NKiAwCAEgw/видео.html - shows the design and build in a rough way but gives some notes and shows our approach... Good luck!
I dig out my walkway each year and then build a compost pile in all my paths through out the green house. This heats the whole house evenly and I lay a drain pipe about half the way down with the ends sticking out at each end of the loop and use the fan from my climate battery to also pull air through the walkways for extra heat when the pile heats up.
Thanks to you both for sharing your insights. I am pleased that you are still including biochar in your systems. I am still trying to figure out how to capture the wood vinegar. Yet to calculate how long an exhaust pipe to use. Anyways, I believe it was Dr Hugh McLaughlin mentioned the easiest way to get biochar prepared for garden use is to put it into compost systems. As it accomplishes the 3 steps in the process. It conditions, charges and inoculates the biochar all at once. You are also achieving it by running it through your chicken runs. It would be interesting to see if at some point you use it in your mentioned above ground system how clear that compost tea/extract would be. I don't believe there would be any "loss" as it is being held in the biochar I think? If that was what the Dr. meant. If I may continue, in doing so, incorporating biochar into compost it may significantly stabilize the temperatures in the piles. I would believe much better than saw dust, wood chips and leaves.
If we had a ton more biochar I would use as much as I could, but we make it in our woodstove slow and steady. I always see an improvement in compost health every time we add the char... feels really legit.
I didn't read every comment but here's my thought process on this Sean. Look at that steam I think you honed in on it. That's worth harnessing. What about using some of that scrap green house plastic you keep and, "drape" the in-house compost pile, as if to create upside down funnel. Pex tip end is zip tied/clamped to ceiling at the top of "inverted plastic funnel", and thus the plastic clamped around the pex. then pex connects to your continuous bed circuit, finally the cold end is pushed in the middle of the compost pile just near the bottom. ,,, the result? you might get a continuous steam heat circuit into your raised garden beds? You might also keep any noxious gases in the greenhouse "tethered" to the heat system? and your layer of charcoal on top of the pile is On Point. Maybe no solar or electric work needed in the end? Air is 700+ times less dense than water so i was thinking the quick warmth of the day would go quickly into soil, rather than taking long time to heat dense mass (water), then radiating sort of slowly. But then again that sounds good. So... Ideally youd have both? a water loop and an air loop? Thoughts? Hit me with your best shot.
By the way said "upside down scrap plastic funnel", really could just look like one of those cake icing bags when they are almost spent. Ya know what I mean? Doesnt have to be bulbous. The plastic could drape the pile and come abruptly up into a corner. That leaves this nice top of the pile where you can set your "startling" trays. thoughts?
I would wonder how well hot air would move through those 1/2" tubes. Maybe it would but I just have my doubts because the water certainly doesn't do so easily, it needs help!
God willing i will get my greenhouse built this year. I had a 10×20 but it was a flimsy thing from walmart. It lasted about 18 months. This time i plan in a 16× 20ish wood framed greenhouse. The reason I'm widening it so much is i want a 4' row of hot compost bins down the middle. That way it can keep it warmer on those freezing days we are now getting every winter for the next couple decades. I'm figuring that my greenhouse is my hedge to starvation. I don't like buying food from the grocery stores. It's mostly junk and not veggies worth eating. I'm planning on a hot end for my tropicals but being able to grow food year around.
Good luck with it all! I wouldn't discount the value of low tunnels as well that can be made inexpensively and work really nicely for crop season extension... ruclips.net/video/WGx4yMRzdxk/видео.html - how we make very simple and long lasting tunnels...
@@edibleacres i agree but also i had to have my roof replace when hurricane Sally took mine last season. I live in a serious winds area on the Alabama Gulf Coast. So just want something built with strong bones.
In the new alchemy institute compost heated greenhouses, they actually blow air from the the top of the roof (as heat goes up..) true the compost, and this air goes then under the beds, so in place of eventually breathing bad gas, you end up by watering undegroundly the plants with vapour, and fertilising it with ammonia, while releasing filtered air. Finished compost is the best filter, with charcoal
Thank you for experimenting with this and sharing it. I’ve been playing around with ideas as well so it’s great when I find a video experimenting with ideas I’ve had! I’m sure in your research you’ve come across walipini. What if you utilized the same concept as a cold sink with air tubes. I’m not saying use air instead of water… but maybe a combination of both. I wonder if there is a way to capture the heat coming off the top and circulate it down toward the floor of the greenhouse with tubes (with holes like the drip line only for air to escape) that stretch along in front of the raised beds.
As a temporary measure could you plug that gap where the wind blew through on the second tunnel with some squashed up straw .. might help keep the heat in
My greenhouse is like the one attached to your house but stand alone. I got it better sealed with foam strips around the edge of the roof sheets and with some additional electric heat on our occasional freezing nights I was able to keep 2 tomato plants alive. One was a clone and I will clone them again for this summer. There is an up slope to the north in the greenhouse so possibly I can get thermal siphoning to the north bed from a compost pile. That is where I have my spring harvest potatoes. A few have come up during February and are a foot high.
Dude, It looks like you are onto the right idea! I wonder though, why not make one big compost pile inside one greenhouse? Then your circulator pumps and storage tanks could serve more beds at once and possibly even your home as well. The compost heat could supplement the heat for your domestic hot water and even help to heat your home with a radiator too. That being said, there certainly is a lot of value in trying out a few different methods like you are in order to find the medthod that is most worth investing in on a bigger scale. Chinese greenhouses are really sweet too. Simple teck did a good video on them. They have no heat but are very effective in the cold
It's a great idea around heat efficiency to be sure, but the off-gassing would be a challenge if it is to be associated with the house. That just won't work for us. Another greenhouse that stands alone, absolutely the compost should happen inside!
I've containerized this process (500gal cylindrical tank with copper tubing coils as heat exchanger), and I'm currently running experiments, but yeah, i think you should have a reservoir / holding tank. Run a really slow circulator from holding tank thru compost, and then another really slow circulator from holding tank through the beds. The holding tank will allow you to store more heat energy, and maybe from there you can circulate through another bed. Kind of like a home heating system with multiple zones / thermostats. Please continue to share anything else you figure out.
great, exactly what i looked for. i hope i will have the opportunity to test this in the future. alsowhat do you think about an double plastic layer on the building , creating like an air layer isolation?
@@edibleacres oh, ok. never tought about that but i think that perhaps it doesnt needs to be as airtight as the first (inner) layer. im thinking about the snow for example, surely it has to cool down the building a great amount if laying on the roof as in your video? or perhaps not because it could dampen the wind? idk also, perhaps compost piles , or at least a bunch of hay laying on the sides of your walls on the outside would do some job also i think i saw a yt clip showing a person who had air pipe in the compost pile outside, and taken into his home trough an air pump he says its like 200W/h on a day
If you added corrugated drain tile pipe comming from the floor throug the pile and exiting into your tunnels and escaping the beds only to return a passive airflow back to your pile keeping it fresh and not allowing it to go anaerobic this would prevent any freezing in the beds at all
Looks amazing! Idea... What if you just overlap the small plastic tunnels over the top of the compost pile? Might need bigger scrap plastic for that though which could be a limiting factor. This did really well for that wind storm, it was intense!
Great thinking... I haven't committed to cutting poly for the south side of the 2nd tunnel yet and was thinking about having it run the full length so I could have it lay on the hot bed on the west end.... . I'll document what happens there :)
I had another idea… what if you have higher raised Hugelkulture beds? And if you don’t want Hugelkulture then maybe you could raise the beds anyway, but more shallow with a long composting drawer underneath… that way the tubing runs throughout it but also the heat coming off the top is naturally heating the soil in the beds above it 😉😊🧐🤓
One thing about pex is it’s not UV resistant, I found this out when I was building mini greenhouse hoops with pex since pvc pipe wouldn’t bend as far as pex. I ended up still using pex and slipping pvc discharge hose over it to cover it since pvc is uv resistant. If you have any exposed sections of pex I would definitely recommend some sort of cover.
I like what your doing with the pex and water. Do you have a small solar fountain pump that would only run during sunny events. Maybe if you combine small dc pump with solar driveway light ,which has a battery. What if you used perf pipe and run air thru it at intervals, the extra oxygen would help your compost heap?
A while ago I saw a guy heating water with a diesel car spark plug. I don't know about vehicles but I think the diesel plug is effectively a heating element. He was using a solar panel to out-put 12 V, but one could also use a wind turbine like they do for sailing boats. I only mention the wind turbine as you said it was windy. It would also be possible to have the plug wired up to both wind turbine and solar panel. Just a thought.
To utilise the heat from the compost, could you try building a compost pile below the garden beds (or placing the heathouse on a higher step with the compost below and contained), so the heat was transferred naturally as it rises via a tube into the hothouse?...
A thing I’ve seen on designs by others exploring this realm is that the compost can create some noxious gases, so having some way for the air to circulate is best for the plants, another way of dealing with this is putting the compost in a separate part of the green house, so maybe separating the compost part with more plastic could be beneficial as it allows for more accurate control over the differing conditions
In the new alchemy institute compost heated greenhouses, they actually blow air from the the top of the roof (as heat goes up..) true the compost, and this air goes then under the beds, so in place of eventually breathing bad gas, you end up by watering undegroundly the plants with vapour, and fertilising it with ammonia, while releasing filtered air. Finished compost is the best filter, with charcoal
With the experiment using the pex tube to circulate heating under the bed, instead of using a pump, have you considered putting a check valve between the reservoir and return line so it passively pumps itself using the expansion and contraction of the water as it's heat content changes? I think this is called a thermosiphon.
How about putting a copper coil in your compost, so that water holds longer in the heap, and increases in temperature? I feel that a water tank is unnecessary, and the piping could be a closed system, so there would be no evaporation, and the water would be hotter.
IDK...25 gals seems like it would freeze up (or partially freeze) unless you ran that pump continuously at night when temps drop to 10 degrees even with only one side exposed to the hot compost & the other to the cold exterior. It's just not a lot of water. You have me thinking it could work in the right space. You may want to consider a taller, wider re-build of a cattle panel tunnel to give you the area you need to acheive mass for the water tank & the compost. Surrounding 55 gals with hot compst on both sides? You would need at minimum 8-9 ft wide. You can always splice cattle panel together to give you the required height & width. No one is limited to the 16 ft long segments for the arch for a specific application. If your concered about snow & ice collapes, emt conduit supports run down the length on both sides of the peak can provide enough support short of snowmaggedeon. A 24 in foam board insulated knee wall would also help a lot too.
I'm looking forward to that 50 gallon pail method. Though, just some thoughts, a 5 gallon pail (or less depending on length of pex circuit) sealed up water tight should be good in a full compost burial. Add an insulated but accessible top and a low point drain at the end of the pex circuit , you could easily supplement some extra heat on these cold blasts with a pail of warm water from the fire place. Also, definitely air tight the low tunnels somehow.
Also a side note for data related math. 1to1 ratio vessel to pex line volume, and a 4to1 ratio total volume to flow rate may be a good starting trial point. Though tweaking is always encouraged. Lol
Hey Sean, Interesting video, great projects. Here is my feedback: Is the compost pile in the tunnel w/ the PEXs circut on the West side? The same side with the significant gap in the door? I think you should set the half barrel for water/ thermal mass storage on top to the what I believe is the Northwest end, then build the compost pile up another tier or partial layer of thermophilic material. This could address and positively impact a few factors: 1.) Adding a gravitational gradient component to the flow of the PEX circuit system (I am hoping that as soon as you fill the circuit with water the height of the water storage will help be the force that creates a passive flow of water initially. Kick starting the passive thermal gradient flow that arrises from the thermophilic energy released by the microbes in the active pile, or potentially the albedo effect from the dark colored soil surface on sunny days). Whichever is the net difference in reaching thermal equilibrium. 2.) Give you more volume of active heat generating material/ increasing thermal mass for conductive passive heating. (This could be accomplished without minimizing too much insolation by the extra material causing shading. If the half barrel reservoir was positioned as much in the NW corner as possible and surrounding the tank from every side but not on the top obvi). 3.) This would act as insulation for the thermal battery (Reservoir H2O, plus volume moving through the tubing) only exposing the water to the open air on the water surface at the top of the tank. Which you could easily cover/insulate and even use as a well for warmed irrigation water. Also, as you observe how the early morning sun enters the structure you can adjust how you want to add/ slope the 2nd tier of compost material towards the S, front wall. Maybe even keeping the very most Southern/ front part of the pile at the current height its at. (to minimize shading and optimize volume, based off your obs.). 4.) In my part of the country, plus I think you've mentioned yours, Winter prevailing winds come from the N and the W. Covering that gap with poly, cardboard or whatever would be an easy spot to make up some thermal gain. I was thinking that building this compost pile/ PEX circuit water reservoir ( the conductive thermal mass storage) up to that height would help buffer a lot of that negative wind effect additionally. Those are the main things that came to mind regarding the context of your infrastructure and systems. I am curious to see how you continue to develop that set up and hopefully this was timely enough to where you have time to read it and take any of my thoughts into consideration for the design of your next set of upgrades. We all know you have enough active compost material laying around that you could probably build this compost W end-wall, PEX raised bed circuit system. lol Thanks for taking those of us along who don't have access to land or resources yet to do awesome projects and production like this. Best of luck this season as winter begins to fade and Spring beginnings springing more and more. Warm regards, Mick Dhein
Have you seen Geoff Lawton's design for a hot compost shower? I think you could you the same theory and put water pipes through the pile to create a warm water thermal mass of some kind. Rather than putting hot water straight in the beds which might damage the plants. If you have a large water container with a lid or a series of tubs, then fill it with some rocks for more thermal mass. All that you need to do is circulate water and you should be able to spread the warmth to the paths and beds in the high tunnel.
Great content as always. i could listen to you calm voice for hours :) really like your ideas and experiments. i cant see why the water barrel idea wouldnt work. as long as you insulate the outer edge. leaf bags spring to mind. i think it might be worth experimenting with the natural syphon of hot water rising and cold water sinking before trying the pump. as your idea evolves it would be easy to spend a little time with exposed pipe in places to see how far the hot/warm water travels naturally. The run might be a little long, but only one way to find out. 2/ idea, if the raised beds where a little higher, would a 6"/8" pipe running from the base/middle of the compost pile, into the beds. with the furthest end slightly elevated, allowing hot/warm air along it. maybe blocking the end to trap the hot/warm air.
The hoarfrost is just a sign of warmish moistish air hitting the metal items which are outside temperature. I don't see any way to fix that short of a complete redesign. I wouldn't bother with the water tank. Fill pex, and pump it. You are never going to move heat from the bed to the compost. What jumped out at me was how dry the top layer of soil looked, all the moisture that moved from the soil to the hoarfrost took most of the heat you lost with it. More air tight will keep it warmer twice (air convection and triple phase change of water)
We need to mulch the soil as soon as seedlings come up. I plan to do a very fine sifting of aged compost to mulch to help hold in the moisture in there. It is amazing how heated that top layer of soil can get during the day.
maybe I missed a video where you explained, why you don't do this, so I'll just ask ;) Why don't you build a "hot bed" - (thats basically a raised bed with "bottom layer of straw/horse manure (or other hot compost - like from the chicken yard) as a heating system for the growing medium (soil and compst) on top of it)? As far as I know, that's how they did it, before all the modern stuff like big heated greenhouses where invented. So there sould be much information about when to build it, how much hot stuff, how high to build it etc. And it's actually called "hot bed"...
This is a great way to heat a greenhouse. I have a tiny greenhouse (less than 8'x8') that I heat with a cubic metre of horse manure and coffee grounds/wood shavings compost. Heres a farmer in Alberta (link following) commercially growing tomatoes in a green house with no supplemental heat. His coldest was somewhere around -25 c. He uses a type of green house popular in northern China. His north wall is a metre thick wall of clay that acts as a massive heat sink. Its double walled poly and also uses insulating blankets that roll out at night. Here is his you tube link: ruclips.net/video/X3uhkj82H7U/видео.html I have a strong feeling hes pioneering green house tech in NAmerica that will radically change the face of commercial green houses in places that get sufficient sunlight.
I've found that channel before. Interesting concepts for sure, although a lot more tech and infrastructure in relation to what is grown in my opinion (super low nutrient density coming out of that space, no layers of plants, etc...). Something to look at and think about to incorporate the food forest vibe inito!
@@edibleacres Considering he is new to farming and 2020 was his first year with this green house (he is already building the next greenhouse ) he has done well commercially. Far more importantly the area where he is growing where winter temps regularly drop to -30c to -40c : absolutely no one in the area and more or less anywhere else in Canada is doing passive solar with no additional energy inputs for heat is amazing and frankly revolutionary. Once he gets dialed in to his process, he can tune up the how and what in terms of nutritional density etc. Other than the one electrical motor that was used to open the windows and also to control the insulating blankets, I didnt see a lot of "tech" in this commercial scale set up. But I do agree that it is heavy on initial infrastructure cost. But the wall, and structure itself now are more or less permanent or at least long term. But keeping in mind that this is a commercial operation that $$ cost will be amortized quickly considering he now is growing year round and other than replacing the poly (which is a big deal in my mind) he is not burning anything and spending zero on heating. ie he isnt bringing in any straw compost heaters etc. Even the way he is using (and re using) the poly mulch, that saves on water for irrigation as it reduces evaporation. He mentioned in a different video he cant use the local ground water as its has salts so the pit he dug when he excavated for the heat sink clay wall, is now a rain catching water pond. He says its enough to water the green house all year. The compost heater works, even on a commercial scale ( that is what I use to heat my own small green house.) More than a hundred years ago European market gardeners were able to supply fresh vegetables all winter long by growing on metre thick beds of horse manure (readily available in cities as transportation was by horse) covered by sheet glass and galoches. Commercial farming in this country needs to look back at its own history and incorporate yesterdays technology along with modern passive tech to move forward sustainably
I would love to have some of your selection of foods you can grow, but I'll stick with my high heat and poor sand. I've had tomatoes in the ground since January down here in Florida. I would think a coiled line making a loop about ever 6" in high would be best, but you would have to rebuild the entire pile to put that in the center. The other option is to just build up. Since heat rises why not put a kitty pool on the top of the pile and pump your water from there. Right after this video was your exact answer. This guy's contract info is at minute 53.00. Most of what he shows is much larger scale then you are most likely looking for. However he also says that he doesn't care about the size. No matter if you are doing it on an industrial scale, or you in you backyard. All he cares is that you are serious about wanting to do things environmentally right. ruclips.net/video/cvMi6hgfcnw/видео.html I haven't seen the second half yet, but you wanted an answer.
As a former insulator, I can assure you that air gaps are the bane of insulation. They would be my top priority. Anything to cut the wind.
Your compost sytem is so great! This is so smart during winter. Even though straw breaks down fast, especially with chicken menure. I believe that it makes great aeration and insulation during winter. Either for worms and breaking down compost. 👍👍
The worms love it once it gets past the initial intense heat stage
Having the compost pile suspended as is will aid in oxygen circulation. The rising heat will draw cooler oxygenated air through the pile. I feel this is unrealized and a bonus, perhaps. Love the channel, love my plants i got from your nursery, keep up the good work!
You are right... I didn't design in that aspect as a benefit, just a solution to the strange layout...
This system seems so evolve everytime , now with 2 ways of heat transformation , air filtration und nitrogen fixation through charcoal , water/nutrient catchment to water the compost in a cycle with even more nutrients . its so simple , the solutions and adatives feel so obvious yet the ideas are new. love your videos , always an inspiration
One thing that just occurred to me-I'm going to bet that your elevated compost pile is much more effective at heating than the compost pile that's on the ground.
A thing to remember is that the ground is-to all intents and purposes,an infinite heat sink. Thus,a compost pile on the ground will always lose some of the heat it generates to that ground. And while warming up the ground under the space isn't going to hurt,since there's a lot more ground than compost,it won't help much.
An elevated compost pile,will,I'm guessing,be a much better solution for heating a space,since all of the heat that it generates is (theoretically) available to heat that space.
This is a fascinating experiment! My compliments to the both of you,and my thanks for going to the trouble to document the results and share them.
It wasn't intentional at all to make the 'hovering compost' more efficient, it just seemed like a solution to the funky problem of a mini pond in that corner, but I bet you're right and it ends up cooking cleaner and longer!
Yyesss. Nice to see the update with these hot beds.
I love this adventure you're sharing!
Do you have any friends who have a FLIR camera or something similar to get some timelapse of thermal data? I get that you're usually an intuitive operator, but with some hard numbers and a visualization you could really tweak this to your liking! I've had similar ideas and am very appreciative of your investigating it and sharing what you learn for all of us.
That could be super neat... I'll put out some feelers :)
I like those experiments. Thanks for showing them to us.
My pleasure :)
Wow that is so impressive! This is awesome to watch and take notes, thank you!
Very happy to share.
Great idea, it may work to keep the compost pile outside like the greenhouse opening more room in the tunnel. You would have to insulate the pile and the pipes between the high tunnel and the pile. I think moving the pile out of the tunnel would also have an added benefit of feeling more zen or minimalist. Defiantly easier on the eyes and less cramped. It would also open up the flow in the high tunnel should you put a door on the other side.
I hear you... Challenge is that our site is already so packed and complex I'd be hard pressed to fit something ini around the tunnel!
Stay Warm.
Thermal siphoning should naturally circulate your fluid, might need extra coils within the pile though. Copper would transfer the heat better, cruise some new construction refuse piles, should be able to score a couple 3ft lengths to splice in.
I was thinking the same thing while watching this one!
For stableish tempertures and short runs the difference in heatt transfer between copper and pex isn't going to make much difference.
I know copper would be way better but I need to be able to harvest the compost later and I can't imagine I'd be able to do so without dinging up the copper...
@@edibleacres from the looks of the layou & the way you were stacking the compostables, you were going to have to dig out the pex lines anyway....
@@why8116 Ding, not just dig.
Try using old bed sheets to cover your veggies in the green house the plastic sweats in the warmth and a sheet wont hold the moisture in but will protect from freezing much better. i did that i had fresh tomatoes thru January here in south eastern washington state. and mine weren't even in a green house. just a protected spot between the house and a shed. try it see if it works in the green house too.
Thanks for sharing i like the heating idea to me is one of the best free energy we have.
Cool idea heres here. Thank you. Tomatoes in January, what a dream!
I thought that gap at the hoop house window looked like it was the perfect size to accommodate those gray foam pipe wrap insulation... the ones that look like mini pool noodles. Also thought that the next time I am at the cheap tool outlet store I should pick up some moving blankets for covering beds in the future. And it has been years since I read Daycreek Journals description about building a passive radiant heat system in a sand bed. I need to refresh that in my mind. As always.... you get my mind churning.
Yeah, figuring ways to pack those gaps on the coldest niights seems quite important.
Very interesting notes Sean !!! 😊
Thank you kindly
You're planning to fit the barrel next to the compost, let it radiate into the water then circulate it? Sounds like a doable plan if u can get a good stable temp
How wide is the opening to the high tunnel ( side with door)? I see that 3 cow panels are bent over with perhaps a 6 ft clearance at highest? Your projects are looking good. I like that you are starting seeds already outside. WTG How high are the side, wood part that you attach the panels to? Do you know the yardage of the poly? Do you have a video with the details all laid out?
Opening is a little tight, maybe 2+ feet wide but not much more.
Height at center is 6'2"
ruclips.net/video/1NKiAwCAEgw/видео.html - shows the design and build in a rough way but gives some notes and shows our approach... Good luck!
I dig out my walkway each year and then build a compost pile in all my paths through out the green house. This heats the whole house evenly and I lay a drain pipe about half the way down with the ends sticking out at each end of the loop and use the fan from my climate battery to also pull air through the walkways for extra heat when the pile heats up.
Sounds like a rad system!
Thanks for the update, very interesting work, also interested in the attached greenhouse update! I'm thinking of building one too.
Can’t wait to see the greenhouse update with some Stanley TV!
Reading this with Stanley right on my lap! :)
Maybe some old sleeping bags or plastic over the compost also linking to the beds on super cold
Nights?
Good idea! He mentioned blankets but anything to add an extra layer would probably help a lot with such cold temps.
Thanks to you both for sharing your insights. I am pleased that you are still including biochar in your systems. I am still trying to figure out how to capture the wood vinegar. Yet to calculate how long an exhaust pipe to use.
Anyways, I believe it was Dr Hugh McLaughlin mentioned the easiest way to get biochar prepared for garden use is to put it into compost systems. As it accomplishes the 3 steps in the process. It conditions, charges and inoculates the biochar all at once. You are also achieving it by running it through your chicken runs.
It would be interesting to see if at some point you use it in your mentioned above ground system how clear that compost tea/extract would be. I don't believe there would be any "loss" as it is being held in the biochar I think? If that was what the Dr. meant.
If I may continue, in doing so, incorporating biochar into compost it may significantly stabilize the temperatures in the piles. I would believe much better than saw dust, wood chips and leaves.
If we had a ton more biochar I would use as much as I could, but we make it in our woodstove slow and steady. I always see an improvement in compost health every time we add the char... feels really legit.
I didn't read every comment but here's my thought process on this Sean. Look at that steam I think you honed in on it. That's worth harnessing. What about using some of that scrap green house plastic you keep and, "drape" the in-house compost pile, as if to create upside down funnel. Pex tip end is zip tied/clamped to ceiling at the top of "inverted plastic funnel", and thus the plastic clamped around the pex. then pex connects to your continuous bed circuit, finally the cold end is pushed in the middle of the compost pile just near the bottom. ,,, the result? you might get a continuous steam heat circuit into your raised garden beds? You might also keep any noxious gases in the greenhouse "tethered" to the heat system? and your layer of charcoal on top of the pile is On Point. Maybe no solar or electric work needed in the end? Air is 700+ times less dense than water so i was thinking the quick warmth of the day would go quickly into soil, rather than taking long time to heat dense mass (water), then radiating sort of slowly. But then again that sounds good. So... Ideally youd have both? a water loop and an air loop? Thoughts? Hit me with your best shot.
By the way said "upside down scrap plastic funnel", really could just look like one of those cake icing bags when they are almost spent. Ya know what I mean? Doesnt have to be bulbous. The plastic could drape the pile and come abruptly up into a corner. That leaves this nice top of the pile where you can set your "startling" trays. thoughts?
I would wonder how well hot air would move through those 1/2" tubes. Maybe it would but I just have my doubts because the water certainly doesn't do so easily, it needs help!
God willing i will get my greenhouse built this year. I had a 10×20 but it was a flimsy thing from walmart. It lasted about 18 months. This time i plan in a 16× 20ish wood framed greenhouse. The reason I'm widening it so much is i want a 4' row of hot compost bins down the middle. That way it can keep it warmer on those freezing days we are now getting every winter for the next couple decades. I'm figuring that my greenhouse is my hedge to starvation. I don't like buying food from the grocery stores. It's mostly junk and not veggies worth eating. I'm planning on a hot end for my tropicals but being able to grow food year around.
Good luck with it all! I wouldn't discount the value of low tunnels as well that can be made inexpensively and work really nicely for crop season extension...
ruclips.net/video/WGx4yMRzdxk/видео.html - how we make very simple and long lasting tunnels...
@@edibleacres i agree but also i had to have my roof replace when hurricane Sally took mine last season. I live in a serious winds area on the Alabama Gulf Coast. So just want something built with strong bones.
In the new alchemy institute compost heated greenhouses, they actually blow air from the the top of the roof (as heat goes up..) true the compost, and this air goes then under the beds, so in place of eventually breathing bad gas, you end up by watering undegroundly the plants with vapour, and fertilising it with ammonia, while releasing filtered air. Finished compost is the best filter, with charcoal
Thank you.
You're welcome!
Build a small rocket stove in the hoop house and burn some twigs in it in the evenings. Patch those breaches as well
Thank you for experimenting with this and sharing it. I’ve been playing around with ideas as well so it’s great when I find a video experimenting with ideas I’ve had!
I’m sure in your research you’ve come across walipini. What if you utilized the same concept as a cold sink with air tubes. I’m not saying use air instead of water… but maybe a combination of both. I wonder if there is a way to capture the heat coming off the top and circulate it down toward the floor of the greenhouse with tubes (with holes like the drip line only for air to escape) that stretch along in front of the raised beds.
I am so making a compost pile hot tub... for my greenhouse mind you. ;D
That would be great! When we finish the 14x50' tunnel at our neighbors site maybe that would be a project to explore :)
As a temporary measure could you plug that gap where the wind blew through on the second tunnel with some squashed up straw .. might help keep the heat in
My greenhouse is like the one attached to your house but stand alone. I got it better sealed with foam strips around the edge of the roof sheets and with some additional electric heat on our occasional freezing nights I was able to keep 2 tomato plants alive. One was a clone and I will clone them again for this summer. There is an up slope to the north in the greenhouse so possibly I can get thermal siphoning to the north bed from a compost pile. That is where I have my spring harvest potatoes. A few have come up during February and are a foot high.
Sounds like a really nice system.
Dude, It looks like you are onto the right idea!
I wonder though, why not make one big compost pile inside one greenhouse? Then your circulator pumps and storage tanks could serve more beds at once and possibly even your home as well. The compost heat could supplement the heat for your domestic hot water and even help to heat your home with a radiator too.
That being said, there certainly is a lot of value in trying out a few different methods like you are in order to find the medthod that is most worth investing in on a bigger scale. Chinese greenhouses are really sweet too. Simple teck did a good video on them. They have no heat but are very effective in the cold
It's a great idea around heat efficiency to be sure, but the off-gassing would be a challenge if it is to be associated with the house. That just won't work for us. Another greenhouse that stands alone, absolutely the compost should happen inside!
I've containerized this process (500gal cylindrical tank with copper tubing coils as heat exchanger), and I'm currently running experiments, but yeah, i think you should have a reservoir / holding tank. Run a really slow circulator from holding tank thru compost, and then another really slow circulator from holding tank through the beds. The holding tank will allow you to store more heat energy, and maybe from there you can circulate through another bed. Kind of like a home heating system with multiple zones / thermostats. Please continue to share anything else you figure out.
Sounds like you have a pretty well developed system, that seems great! We'll share more notes on this experiment as it all evolves over time.
great, exactly what i looked for. i hope i will have the opportunity to test this in the future.
alsowhat do you think about an double plastic layer on the building , creating like an air layer isolation?
The double poly... I'd need to 'inflate' it to have it really work well and I don't think I'd want to get that deep into all thiis..
@@edibleacres oh, ok. never tought about that but i think that perhaps it doesnt needs to be as airtight as the first (inner) layer. im thinking about the snow for example, surely it has to cool down the building a great amount if laying on the roof as in your video? or perhaps not because it could dampen the wind? idk
also, perhaps compost piles , or at least a bunch of hay laying on the sides of your walls on the outside would do some job
also i think i saw a yt clip showing a person who had air pipe in the compost pile outside, and taken into his home trough an air pump he says its like 200W/h on a day
Hmmm...how can I harness bunny and chicken warmth to heat my winter garden...lol
Again awesome informative and inspiring video thanks for sharing common man/low tech ideas
Denis
I am running 3" foil duct through compost and adding it to my geo thermal duct to increase temp. Was the air under compost warmer?
Under the compost I don't know... I'd suspect it wasn't as warm as up higher though...
If you added corrugated drain tile pipe comming from the floor throug the pile and exiting into your tunnels and escaping the beds only to return a passive airflow back to your pile keeping it fresh and not allowing it to go anaerobic this would prevent any freezing in the beds at all
OH MY GODDESS!!! TAGS FROM BLINDS!!!! Geezeee,, wish I had known that years ago,
They seem good so far.
Looks amazing! Idea... What if you just overlap the small plastic tunnels over the top of the compost pile? Might need bigger scrap plastic for that though which could be a limiting factor. This did really well for that wind storm, it was intense!
A simple and great idea. Put the compost pile under the small tunnel.
Great thinking... I haven't committed to cutting poly for the south side of the 2nd tunnel yet and was thinking about having it run the full length so I could have it lay on the hot bed on the west end.... . I'll document what happens there :)
I had another idea… what if you have higher raised Hugelkulture beds?
And if you don’t want Hugelkulture then maybe you could raise the beds anyway, but more shallow with a long composting drawer underneath… that way the tubing runs throughout it but also the heat coming off the top is naturally heating the soil in the beds above it 😉😊🧐🤓
One thing about pex is it’s not UV resistant, I found this out when I was building mini greenhouse hoops with pex since pvc pipe wouldn’t bend as far as pex. I ended up still using pex and slipping pvc discharge hose over it to cover it since pvc is uv resistant. If you have any exposed sections of pex I would definitely recommend some sort of cover.
Good to know
I like what your doing with the pex and water. Do you have a small solar fountain pump that would only run during sunny events. Maybe if you combine small dc pump with solar driveway light ,which has a battery. What if you used perf pipe and run air thru it at intervals, the extra oxygen would help your compost heap?
Small solar pumps are efficient but not that efficient. 1-2 square feet if panel, not 16 square inches.
Do you get any fumes
I'd say it can be aromatic at times, but not bad... .WIth the charcoal on the top it helps immensely in absorbing odors.
A while ago I saw a guy heating water with a diesel car spark plug. I don't know about vehicles but I think the diesel plug is effectively a heating element. He was using a solar panel to out-put 12 V, but one could also use a wind turbine like they do for sailing boats. I only mention the wind turbine as you said it was windy. It would also be possible to have the plug wired up to both wind turbine and solar panel. Just a thought.
Super interesting lead for research, I will definitely check it out.
To utilise the heat from the compost, could you try building a compost pile below the garden beds (or placing the heathouse on a higher step with the compost below and contained), so the heat was transferred naturally as it rises via a tube into the hothouse?...
That would be a really smart basic design direction to take for a future project...
That's basically a hotbed i believe. They were popular in Victorian England
may be great to add charcoal in the juices off the elevated compost pile (great inoculate).
A thing I’ve seen on designs by others exploring this realm is that the compost can create some noxious gases, so having some way for the air to circulate is best for the plants, another way of dealing with this is putting the compost in a separate part of the green house, so maybe separating the compost part with more plastic could be beneficial as it allows for more accurate control over the differing conditions
In the new alchemy institute compost heated greenhouses, they actually blow air from the the top of the roof (as heat goes up..) true the compost, and this air goes then under the beds, so in place of eventually breathing bad gas, you end up by watering undegroundly the plants with vapour, and fertilising it with ammonia, while releasing filtered air. Finished compost is the best filter, with charcoal
Does anyone know how is the heat transfer in Pex tubing compared to the expensive option of copper?
I'm sure not as great overall, but it is decent and the price is right!
I guess if you double plastic tarp evey sides and close it tight with synthetic whool around the openning so it can breath, will do a lot too
I think adding prefererated pipe would add oxygen to the pile as well as a small solar fan will help heat the space
I could really imagine that to be true.
With the experiment using the pex tube to circulate heating under the bed, instead of using a pump, have you considered putting a check valve between the reservoir and return line so it passively pumps itself using the expansion and contraction of the water as it's heat content changes? I think this is called a thermosiphon.
I've thought about it but I assumed thermosiphoning needed way more head or pressure to get it to work.
How long did your pile produce heat?
Not super long, but a tapering off of a month or so... Enough for swing season
@@edibleacres Thanks!!
How about putting a copper coil in your compost, so that water holds longer in the heap, and increases in temperature?
I feel that a water tank is unnecessary, and the piping could be a closed system, so there would be no evaporation, and the water would be hotter.
IDK...25 gals seems like it would freeze up (or partially freeze) unless you ran that pump continuously at night when temps drop to 10 degrees even with only one side exposed to the hot compost & the other to the cold exterior. It's just not a lot of water.
You have me thinking it could work in the right space. You may want to consider a taller, wider re-build of a cattle panel tunnel to give you the area you need to acheive mass for the water tank & the compost. Surrounding 55 gals with hot compst on both sides? You would need at minimum 8-9 ft wide.
You can always splice cattle panel together to give you the required height & width. No one is limited to the 16 ft long segments for the arch for a specific application. If your concered about snow & ice collapes, emt conduit supports run down the length on both sides of the peak can provide enough support short of snowmaggedeon.
A 24 in foam board insulated knee wall would also help a lot too.
I'm looking forward to that 50 gallon pail method.
Though, just some thoughts,
a 5 gallon pail (or less depending on length of pex circuit) sealed up water tight should be good in a full compost burial.
Add an insulated but accessible top and a low point drain at the end of the pex circuit , you could easily supplement some extra heat on these cold blasts with a pail of warm water from the fire place.
Also, definitely air tight the low tunnels somehow.
Also a side note for data related math. 1to1 ratio vessel to pex line volume, and a 4to1 ratio total volume to flow rate may be a good starting trial point. Though tweaking is always encouraged. Lol
Neat idea to top off the circuit with hot water from the wood stove on gnarly niights... I like that!
Hey Sean,
Interesting video, great projects. Here is my feedback:
Is the compost pile in the tunnel w/ the PEXs circut on the West side? The same side with the significant gap in the door? I think you should set the half barrel for water/ thermal mass storage on top to the what I believe is the Northwest end, then build the compost pile up another tier or partial layer of thermophilic material. This could address and positively impact a few factors: 1.) Adding a gravitational gradient component to the flow of the PEX circuit system (I am hoping that as soon as you fill the circuit with water the height of the water storage will help be the force that creates a passive flow of water initially. Kick starting the passive thermal gradient flow that arrises from the thermophilic energy released by the microbes in the active pile, or potentially the albedo effect from the dark colored soil surface on sunny days). Whichever is the net difference in reaching thermal equilibrium.
2.) Give you more volume of active heat generating material/ increasing thermal mass for conductive passive heating. (This could be accomplished without minimizing too much insolation by the extra material causing shading. If the half barrel reservoir was positioned as much in the NW corner as possible and surrounding the tank from every side but not on the top obvi).
3.) This would act as insulation for the thermal battery (Reservoir H2O, plus volume moving through the tubing) only exposing the water to the open air on the water surface at the top of the tank. Which you could easily cover/insulate and even use as a well for warmed irrigation water. Also, as you observe how the early morning sun enters the structure you can adjust how you want to add/ slope the 2nd tier of compost material towards the S, front wall. Maybe even keeping the very most Southern/ front part of the pile at the current height its at. (to minimize shading and optimize volume, based off your obs.).
4.) In my part of the country, plus I think you've mentioned yours, Winter prevailing winds come from the N and the W. Covering that gap with poly, cardboard or whatever would be an easy spot to make up some thermal gain. I was thinking that building this compost pile/ PEX circuit water reservoir ( the conductive thermal mass storage) up to that height would help buffer a lot of that negative wind effect additionally.
Those are the main things that came to mind regarding the context of your infrastructure and systems. I am curious to see how you continue to develop that set up and hopefully this was timely enough to where you have time to read it and take any of my thoughts into consideration for the design of your next set of upgrades. We all know you have enough active compost material laying around that you could probably build this compost W end-wall, PEX raised bed circuit system. lol Thanks for taking those of us along who don't have access to land or resources yet to do awesome projects and production like this.
Best of luck this season as winter begins to fade and Spring beginnings springing more and more.
Warm regards, Mick Dhein
Super great ideas here and very much appreciated with the thorough description of them! THanks Mick!
Have you seen Geoff Lawton's design for a hot compost shower?
I think you could you the same theory and put water pipes through the pile to create a warm water thermal mass of some kind. Rather than putting hot water straight in the beds which might damage the plants. If you have a large water container with a lid or a series of tubs, then fill it with some rocks for more thermal mass.
All that you need to do is circulate water and you should be able to spread the warmth to the paths and beds in the high tunnel.
Good idea here
I wonder if there could be a giant scale model made with a water generator running on the power from the circulated water.
A 4" layer of Biochar on the bottom will both capture nutrients and quite possibly serve as decent insulation
Good thinking.
Great content as always. i could listen to you calm voice for hours :) really like your ideas and experiments. i cant see why the water barrel idea wouldnt work. as long as you insulate the outer edge. leaf bags spring to mind. i think it might be worth experimenting with the natural syphon of hot water rising and cold water sinking before trying the pump. as your idea evolves it would be easy to spend a little time with exposed pipe in places to see how far the hot/warm water travels naturally. The run might be a little long, but only one way to find out.
2/ idea, if the raised beds where a little higher, would a 6"/8" pipe running from the base/middle of the compost pile, into the beds. with the furthest end slightly elevated, allowing hot/warm air along it. maybe blocking the end to trap the hot/warm air.
The hoarfrost is just a sign of warmish moistish air hitting the metal items which are outside temperature. I don't see any way to fix that short of a complete redesign.
I wouldn't bother with the water tank. Fill pex, and pump it. You are never going to move heat from the bed to the compost.
What jumped out at me was how dry the top layer of soil looked, all the moisture that moved from the soil to the hoarfrost took most of the heat you lost with it. More air tight will keep it warmer twice (air convection and triple phase change of water)
We need to mulch the soil as soon as seedlings come up. I plan to do a very fine sifting of aged compost to mulch to help hold in the moisture in there. It is amazing how heated that top layer of soil can get during the day.
@@edibleacres Also consider how to direct the condensation on the cover back onto the soil.
maybe I missed a video where you explained, why you don't do this, so I'll just ask ;) Why don't you build a "hot bed" - (thats basically a raised bed with "bottom layer of straw/horse manure (or other hot compost - like from the chicken yard) as a heating system for the growing medium (soil and compst) on top of it)? As far as I know, that's how they did it, before all the modern stuff like big heated greenhouses where invented. So there sould be much information about when to build it, how much hot stuff, how high to build it etc. And it's actually called "hot bed"...
We do plan to use the 'tops' of these compost piles as seed starting spaces for warm loving plants soon... So we'll utilize that heat directly..
This is a great way to heat a greenhouse. I have a tiny greenhouse (less than 8'x8') that I heat with a cubic metre of horse manure and coffee grounds/wood shavings compost. Heres a farmer in Alberta (link following) commercially growing tomatoes in a green house with no supplemental heat. His coldest was somewhere around -25 c. He uses a type of green house popular in northern China. His north wall is a metre thick wall of clay that acts as a massive heat sink. Its double walled poly and also uses insulating blankets that roll out at night. Here is his you tube link: ruclips.net/video/X3uhkj82H7U/видео.html I have a strong feeling hes pioneering green house tech in NAmerica that will radically change the face of commercial green houses in places that get sufficient sunlight.
I've found that channel before. Interesting concepts for sure, although a lot more tech and infrastructure in relation to what is grown in my opinion (super low nutrient density coming out of that space, no layers of plants, etc...). Something to look at and think about to incorporate the food forest vibe inito!
@@edibleacres Considering he is new to farming and 2020 was his first year with this green house (he is already building the next greenhouse ) he has done well commercially. Far more importantly the area where he is growing where winter temps regularly drop to -30c to -40c : absolutely no one in the area and more or less anywhere else in Canada is doing passive solar with no additional energy inputs for heat is amazing and frankly revolutionary. Once he gets dialed in to his process, he can tune up the how and what in terms of nutritional density etc. Other than the one electrical motor that was used to open the windows and also to control the insulating blankets, I didnt see a lot of "tech" in this commercial scale set up. But I do agree that it is heavy on initial infrastructure cost. But the wall, and structure itself now are more or less permanent or at least long term. But keeping in mind that this is a commercial operation that $$ cost will be amortized quickly considering he now is growing year round and other than replacing the poly (which is a big deal in my mind) he is not burning anything and spending zero on heating. ie he isnt bringing in any straw compost heaters etc. Even the way he is using (and re using) the poly mulch, that saves on water for irrigation as it reduces evaporation. He mentioned in a different video he cant use the local ground water as its has salts so the pit he dug when he excavated for the heat sink clay wall, is now a rain catching water pond. He says its enough to water the green house all year. The compost heater works, even on a commercial scale ( that is what I use to heat my own small green house.) More than a hundred years ago European market gardeners were able to supply fresh vegetables all winter long by growing on metre thick beds of horse manure (readily available in cities as transportation was by horse) covered by sheet glass and galoches. Commercial farming in this country needs to look back at its own history and incorporate yesterdays technology along with modern passive tech to move forward sustainably
I would love to have some of your selection of foods you can grow, but I'll stick with my high heat and poor sand. I've had tomatoes in the ground since January down here in Florida. I would think a coiled line making a loop about ever 6" in high would be best, but you would have to rebuild the entire pile to put that in the center.
The other option is to just build up. Since heat rises why not put a kitty pool on the top of the pile and pump your water from there.
Right after this video was your exact answer. This guy's contract info is at minute 53.00. Most of what he shows is much larger scale then you are most likely looking for. However he also says that he doesn't care about the size. No matter if you are doing it on an industrial scale, or you in you backyard. All he cares is that you are serious about wanting to do things environmentally right. ruclips.net/video/cvMi6hgfcnw/видео.html
I haven't seen the second half yet, but you wanted an answer.
Not smale but fumes