Well yeah You can still be in a religion but have trauma A lot of people just find a religion and relationship with God or gods on their on terms(which is how its meant to be), rather than what they were taught which is often too strict And then some just never leave or do that in anyway. And just Repress(tm).
@@nitka711denomination* Christianity is the religion, the "sub"-religions are called denominations(such as catholicism, orthodox, protestantism, mormonism, etc)
I did decide to put a good priest into my books...his character motivation was that he was the victim of an evil priest, and decided to join the priesthood like "Here, asshole, this is HOW YOU PRIEST PROPERLY!" while flipping off the evil guy's gravestone. He has a teen protégé who has psychic powers, so good priest was immediately like "You need to learn how to use those before someone accuses you of being possessed. If you do get possessed, here’s the tools to get better. Off we go to the library."
@@karinland8533 Martin Luther is the German guy who invented a new flavour of Christianity (Protestantism) because he didn't agree with the things the Catholics were doing
@karinland8533 he pointed out the catholic church's predatory tactics in the 1500's, and was the one credited with the Protestant movement. There were others and it was hardly a clean break. People will people throughout all time and versions of religion. But it's his thing
"Since when has 'evil Catholic' been an archetype?" Ma'am. Judge Claude Frollo. We all grew up bopping to "Hellfire", but it doesn't make it any less ick.
Oh it goes back way further than that. Brush up on your dark age, renaissance, and medieval european history. Between the crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, and the various affairs involving the Borgias or the Medici, evil catholic is probably the most realistic of all fiction tropes.
In the books, Frollo was actually a priest. And the book was quite dark and involved torture, I was dumbfounded when Disney announced it was the next big disney summer movie, and I was only 10.
Deeply ironic, given THE conerstone fantasy author was a devot catholic, and his best friend, another foundational fantasy author, was a devout protestant
You might enjoy reading "A Hobbit, a Wardrobe and a Great War" to delve deeper into what made Tolkien and Lewis tick. Institutional trauma may well have played a part
I'm a fantasy author. I also attained a Ph.D. in Religions. And I can guarantee that many, MANY fantasy authors have religious trauma...and not all of it is due to Christianity! Many religions have given people trauma that they then work into, and through, their storytelling...because a LOT of readers ALSO have similar traumas, so it's often a cathartic bonding experience. (...As far as degrees go, it was worth the cost of the paper it was printed on, so about two cents' worth--it was fancy paper!)
Genuine question: Why did you go all the way to PhD with it if you consider the topic/degree worthless? No judgement, I'm just honestly curious. I'm in the middle of a PhD too, but I do it because I love my field. Learning it was one of the most impactful events in my life, so people with a different perspective are always a bit hard to understand...?
@@weareallbornmad410i learned arabic to B2 just to shit on muslims in it before learning that diacritics weren't a thing back when the quran was written (and thus me promptly forgetting the language because it's a waste of time) I'd imagine they got a PhD for either a similar reason or because they didnt have anything better to do when the guidance counselor suggested itm
@@angrydragonslayer I mean, PhD is your third university degree. I'd imagine most people are pretty much over the high school guidance advice. And a four year long degree - your _third_ one - doesn't seem like something you'd do out of spite
The “evil priest/ess” character (whatever their religion, real or fantasy) ALWAYS freaks me out, since I’ve been lucky enough to only have positive experiences with religious authorities. It breaks my heart that most other people can’t say the same.
@@alexanderlaird6206need to do a statistic to know if most people had bad or good experience with religious persons. Myself I had bad experiences. But unless we do a statistic etude, we can not know how many.
Well I don't have bad personnal experience with religious authority but it's because I don't debate with them on my view on religious authorities, feminism and LGBTQ+ community, I know it don't worth it. (I know there is tolerants ones but I don't want to play will I have a pleasant conversation or will I just heard hate)
Same. Also I discover more and more in how many instances the common picture of historical Catholic church is much worse than reality. Mostly, I think, because contemporary pop culture is created mainly by anglosaxon countries, so protenstants.
Ugh you could feel the author seething through the page. I made it about half way through the first book before I decided i wasn't going to be part of his angry therapy session.
Funny, the Arch bishop in three musketeers is one of the best statesman in history. Really ruled to better France and regular people. His bad reputation is from the nobles. The arch bishop forced them to correct their behaviour...
@@reduande Richelieu was an amazing person of his time ... Yeah, I read up on him after the 70s 3 Musketeers movies Found that having Charleton Heston cast in the part made way more sense than it should have ...
Arguably, it's Lord Dunsany who was the father of fantasy while Tolkien was its great populariser (though not initially and definitely not on purpose).
I see priest in fantasy, I assume one of two things: kind _OLD_ man who runs an orphanage and gives the MC(s) a place to stay the night in the rain kind of guy with no real impact on the plot besides maybe being murdered to show how evil the actual villain is, or anything else that turns out to be the villain or at least like the villain's right hand man.
That's funny, I don't come from a Christian background, but I too write sometimes for myself, and I can say that it's accurate, not because of religious trauma, but because of power hungry authority figures trauma. 😂
C. Dale Brittain's Wizard of Yurt. He's not evil. He is, however, attractive with dark hair an the priest of a Catholic Church. He's the main character's BFF and confidant over the course of the series.
I didn't even know this was an archetype and am a Christian man and when she said "priest" I immediately knew he was a villain. I gotta find new books.
Honestly makes me wanna write a story where the priest is kind, good for spiritual and general advice and is an all right stand up guy Sure lots of violence and war in the background but my guy just loves Jesus and helping people
@Ian-yd9tl I approve, but if it's christian it'll have to be a non-hell version or that priest will come across as either blinkered or trying to save people from an evil god.
I’m writing an AH comedy romance in queer-friendly 1920’s Britain. The “cute but hapless curate” archetype is a lesbian who’s too shy to give sermons and has a crush on the local duchess.
My current D&D campaign is literally that. The priests in my campaign literally have devils serving them but they’re not the evil ones. They and the party are trying to topple an evil empire that persecutes religious minorities and twists the doctrines of major religions to suit their purposes. The gods are angry at this but due to divine law, they cannot send angels to just destroy the empire, so they made a deal with Asmodeus to lend devils to their clerics to help them overthrow the empire.
"Since when has 'Evil Catholic' been an archetype?" Since the late 1400s _at the absolute latest_ with the publication of Heinrich Kramer's Malleus Maleficarum and the onset of the witch hunts.
I mean, the church didn't particularly like his work, to put it mildly. He literally had to force his way to be even recognised, and many people thought his own ideas were heretical.
Too accurate. It's a tired old archetype, though. Especially in high fantasy. I wish most authors would tone it down a bit, and I'm not even Christian.
Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn had an evil priest, a good priest and a morally grey monk. He also did a lot of religious corruption and did a fair job at displaying religion in a medieval setting to the people living it. The only issue is some of his characters were a bit too unreligious but they were usually children who got reprimanded and learned to keep thoughts inside. I actually found it surprisingly realistic and wondered how much research he had done on medieval life since it was written in the 80's and 90's and that research would have been a lot more limited. Also the evil priest was basically summoning demons for an evil queen who was afraid to die alone so she plans to take the world with her. She has no "men did me dirty" type motivation just the age old fear of mortality.
Check out the book "A Hobbit, a Wardrobe, and a Great War." They both had multiple kinds of trauma. Institutional trauma comes in many flavors, and lots of them are religious. Some of us keep trying until we find the right one for us.
“Evil catholic” archetype is a staple of Japanese fantasy, especially in JRPGs. I’m saying this as someone who has never played a JRPG, and I know it’s a staple
What does it mean if I am fantasy author with no religious trauma? (also I am quite sure Tolkien and Lewis also didn't have one... Ok, Lewis could have, but Tolkien probably not)
That you're not a real fantasy author... Or perhaps the fact you BELIEVE you've never had any religious trauma means you're an author in a fantasy? Or maybe I'm just pulling stuff out of my miracle hole.
I find them being a villain a good thing 😂 Always thought it was so romantic that a villain would sacrifice the world for the person they love whereas a hero would sacrifice the person they love for the world ❤
Okay, but now I want to create a series... "Fantasy Love Interest Hotline, how may I help your pining for a fictional character who'll never know you exist?"
Why did that hit so hard? Like, I right mostly fantasy, but I wasn't expecting that, at one point I was catholic though and I do have an unknown source of trauma, wait... 😮
As a fantasy author i am confused. I do not have religious truama and am actually religious. I just love morally grey characters because they are fun to write and learn about
I'm a Christian author and as far as I roll if I write evil people who are religious it's because those people actually exist. Not all who claim to be of my faith are good and that if fact.
As a Catholic, the “Evil Catholic archetype” gets pretty annoying. It’s like, duh there are bad Catholics, even bad priests, we’re human beings. But we’re not ALL evil! 😂 It’s honestly refreshing when I see movies or books where the Catholic is a good guy or when it’s just not a big deal that they’re Catholic
I’m not catholic, but this trope bothers me enough that in the fantasy novel I’m writing the catholic priest is a good guy. Totally wrong in his beliefs about the fair folk, but definitely the kindest, more moral figure in the story.
@@lyamainu What do you have planned as the title? Fantasy and romance aren't really my thing (I know), but yours sounds like it might be an exception :)
Father Brown is not Catholic nor fantasy, but I love his portrayal. And Call the Midwife as well. I think those shows do a good job of showing moral but fallible people in a balanced way.
I’m actually writing a series where the love interest is a seminarian! (He ends up discerning out, which is how he is the love interest, but he’s still very devoted to his faith). He’s the moral backbone of the books.
He had some trauma before that from his widowed mom being told by the relatives "Sure, we'll help you and the kids ... but you have to quit being Catholic, first."
This does NOT apply to the Tortall books!!! The villains include: a literal bully, a noble, more nobles, an emperor, a prettyboy bully, a crazy king, a scumbag and a murderer, a mafia boss (essentially), more nobles, the goddess of Chaos, a prince. And a few more nobles.
Can only speak for myself, but there's a reason why some of the heroes in my stories have to contend with the troubles of religion. Some of the people who practice one particular faith have good intent, and some of its practitioners are even genuinely good people; however, a few other characters are having to come to terms with the darker experiences they went through. And while there are a number of other faiths, one of the few other prominent religions practiced in that world setting have been heavily skewed towards praising conquistadors like saints-while enslaving the most vulnerable peoples outside of their kingdom. The different faiths have their pros and cons, and the different characters have to make sense on what paths they're meant or willing to follow. It's not meant to be a demonization of faith, so much as a critical look on both the bad and the good that can be done by people from different walks of life. I've got my trauma, but I don't spite religion in its entirety; I am of the belief that there are good people in different faiths who have good hearts, and mean the best for others. Not to say that they're not above their own flaws, so much as consideration can be made of intent behind their actions. "The road to hell is usually paved with good intentions" **is** a common trope, but aside from the wicked and misguided, there are genuinely considerate and compassionate people that can be found among various faiths. The trauma shouldn't be buried and forgotten, but neither should the same fate befall the kindnesses done through the power of faith-and this is coming from an agnostic that's dealt with both bigotous kin and considerate people from the nost surprising of places. People are complex, and I always enjoy trying to explore complexities of characters in stories.
Reminds me of a book I read, Vespertine, where *SPOILERS AHEAD PLEASE STOP IF YOU WANT TO READ THE BOOK IT WAS REALLY GREAT HIGH FANTASY WITH COMPLEX CHARACTERS* I was *so sure* that the priest was evil, even after they mentioned his eyes in a sort of generic romance way, and then it turned out the church was evil and he was being lied to???
I actually read a book the other day and I kept thinking everyone was a bad guy like I wasn’t SO sure that they were all traitors and then they were all actually rlly rlly good and none of them were traitors and the bad guy was the only bad guy. I felt like a bad person.
Yeah, but I have always associated Saruman with this trope. It's possible that Tolkien knew a religious leader like him, but never let it shake his faith.
There’s a webcomic I’m reading where basically everyone is bi and the FL has three possible love interests: guy who had ML energy at the start, guy with 2ML energy, and 1000+ y.o. woman whom the entire comments section simps over. You meet the first guy super early on and you get the vibe of “this is going to be a straight love story with vibes that make it seem gay but it’s actually not gay and everyone here is straight” BUT IT IS ACTUALLY HELLA GAY (bi) and it’s so refreshing to not have queer bait for once. Also if you are wondering if it’s a “oh well they make it so the bi mc goes for a guy because the author is uncomfortable writing queer relationships” it is not there are 2 cannon queer relationships and 0 cannon M-F relationships. Anyways I am rooting for 2ML because although the (not immortal?) immortal woman is my favorite character her relationship with the FL is kinda toxic BUT NOT IN AN ABUSIVE WAY THANK GOD even when you ignore the age gap of over a thousand years. Now, you might be wondering, what about the guy who had ML energy at the start? Well, turns out he’s a merciless child-murdering genocidal religious zealot with specifically evil catholic energy (although the god he serves is a woman, so equality ig? Evil men can worship women, too! Lol). I want to see his head on a pike and I will burn the whole world down if he gets with the FL
C.S Lewis and Tolkien didn't believe in God for a LONG time until they made their books. They are litterally the fathers of fantasy and fit this archetype 😭
I mean… the Catholic Church has killed a LOT of people. Like, more than 50 million. And that’s being generous. So… is it wrong to make them the villain? 🤷♀️
Hitler was a Protestant…I don’t think you want to look into those numbers. Most groups, religious or ethnic, have been involved in a lot of war and death at this point. This does not make war or death okay, but maybe check the beam in your own eye first? Most of the deaths caused by “Catholics” were not condoned by the Catholic Church, but rather were political grabs. The crusades? The pope wrote to Ferdinand telling him not to, but Ferdinand threatened the pope instead. The wars in England between Protestants and Catholics? Much of it was about solidifying the power of the new ruler. The Catholic Church, every day, feeds, clothes, educates, and shelters more people than any other charity.
Me hearing her talking about religious trauma: Oop, I've been summoned But seriously, churches alone are a threat to my physical and mental health. (I start having panic attacks, trouble breathing and pain all over my body when inside one. It's annoying and scary) Ofc that's not all
I have a "True believer" priest (who is wholesome AF) and an "evil Catholic" priest in the same story. It's an ongoing complication for the MC who was abused by the evil priest and then befriended the good one before learning that his new friend is a priest.😅
Nothing wrong with liking a baddie. Sometimes you want to be in a dangerous situation. Not to mention redemption arcs and the temptation to fall arcs. Good baddies are absolutely wonderful.
I was introduced to the evil Catholic trope by my seventh grade teacher. Mrs. S, if you’re out there, I want you to know that you are a terrible person, but the villian of my romantic fantasy that’s based on you is SO FUN to write.
If any one’s looking for fun books with non-evil Catholic characters as well as evil ones, “Brother Cadfael” detective books are pretty fun. I’m not Catholic myself, I just like my fantasy/detective novel Catholic people to be similar to devout Catholics I’ve known.
Yeah. In all books where main character is an angel (s)he always fall in love with a human (if it's guardian angel) or demon and ditch his/her duties becoming either mortal or fallen. And also such character usually behaves like a human (from the get go despite not being human in past life) or a teen going through puberty
there’s always a possibility that he could leave the church when he finds out about the inquisition priest: “this is not gods way brothers! we are to protect the sanctity of life, not tarnish it! If you go through with this… i cannot follow. i will not break my vows to taking a life!” brother: “then you break your vows to disobey.” priest: “so i must obey your will, or His will. the choice is clear to me now.” brother: “THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME! HOW DARE BLASPHEME IN MY PRESENCE!”
I'm a Christian. I write fantasy, I have nothing against the church or orginized religion as a whole... but yeah, nine times out of ten if i have a priest in whatever monotheistic religion is in a book I'm writing. He's probably a villain... not even a commentary of the church. Just the observation that those in a position of power will often abuse that power. Especially if they can claim moral superiority over others.
Pillars of the earth is a great show and book around building a cathedral. It has a good few priests, you have the bandit who broke from that life to help a orphan, you have the man who prays for his sister, the one who uses the church for a title and higher place, the gay guy who joined so he wouldn't be killed, the Bishop who just wants power and to get to the top just to look down on everyone else. Then you have the one the Bishop fears, the one who actually believes what he preaches and can't be brought no matter the price.
The cross necklace makes this SO MUCH FUNNIER
Well yeah
You can still be in a religion but have trauma
A lot of people just find a religion and relationship with God or gods on their on terms(which is how its meant to be), rather than what they were taught which is often too strict
And then some just never leave or do that in anyway. And just Repress(tm).
its to keep the priest away
I noticed that too 😂
Could be a fashion thing too or she converted from one christian religion to another. There are several, you know
@@nitka711denomination*
Christianity is the religion, the "sub"-religions are called denominations(such as catholicism, orthodox, protestantism, mormonism, etc)
This honestly made me laugh out loud. And, 100%, obviously evil.
I did decide to put a good priest into my books...his character motivation was that he was the victim of an evil priest, and decided to join the priesthood like "Here, asshole, this is HOW YOU PRIEST PROPERLY!" while flipping off the evil guy's gravestone. He has a teen protégé who has psychic powers, so good priest was immediately like "You need to learn how to use those before someone accuses you of being possessed. If you do get possessed, here’s the tools to get better. Off we go to the library."
Title? Where can I find your book? I love this concept!!
@@TsukikoLuna26 Not yet finished with the writing of it, tragically. It's in progress!
That sounds like a great character concept.
When you finish writing this book please reply your comment
Sounds damn incredible! I'd love to read that!
"Since when has Evil Catholic been an archetype?"
Martin Luther has joined the call.
😂😂 I was going to mention Martin Luther....you beat me to it.
Now I’m curious, how does he fall into that?
@@karinland8533 Martin Luther is the German guy who invented a new flavour of Christianity (Protestantism) because he didn't agree with the things the Catholics were doing
@karinland8533 he pointed out the catholic church's predatory tactics in the 1500's, and was the one credited with the Protestant movement. There were others and it was hardly a clean break. People will people throughout all time and versions of religion. But it's his thing
I immediately thought "since the Crusades"
As a fantasy author, I'm offended by this 😂😂😂 and yet it's accurate
Same, but I would call what I have as less trauma and more like reasons for my problems with organized religion
As a fantasy author too I would like to say that I have no religious trauma.
"Since when has 'evil Catholic' been an archetype?" Ma'am. Judge Claude Frollo. We all grew up bopping to "Hellfire", but it doesn't make it any less ick.
I thought it was far older than that
Machiavelli mentions the pope of his time as the pinnacle of evil and even mentions women swooning over bishops
Oh it goes back way further than that. Brush up on your dark age, renaissance, and medieval european history. Between the crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, and the various affairs involving the Borgias or the Medici, evil catholic is probably the most realistic of all fiction tropes.
In the books, Frollo was actually a priest. And the book was quite dark and involved torture, I was dumbfounded when Disney announced it was the next big disney summer movie, and I was only 10.
that’s exactly who i thought of too 😭
Also for the more recent generation, Emperor Belos from the Owl House.
Deeply ironic, given THE conerstone fantasy author was a devot catholic, and his best friend, another foundational fantasy author, was a devout protestant
you talking about tolkien?
@@KhyannArts and C.S. Lewis.
You might enjoy reading "A Hobbit, a Wardrobe and a Great War" to delve deeper into what made Tolkien and Lewis tick. Institutional trauma may well have played a part
Exactly
@@allieoneal2033 William Blake was very religious but he criticised the church. Example of this would be his poem London.
I'm a fantasy author. I also attained a Ph.D. in Religions. And I can guarantee that many, MANY fantasy authors have religious trauma...and not all of it is due to Christianity! Many religions have given people trauma that they then work into, and through, their storytelling...because a LOT of readers ALSO have similar traumas, so it's often a cathartic bonding experience. (...As far as degrees go, it was worth the cost of the paper it was printed on, so about two cents' worth--it was fancy paper!)
Genuine question:
Why did you go all the way to PhD with it if you consider the topic/degree worthless?
No judgement, I'm just honestly curious. I'm in the middle of a PhD too, but I do it because I love my field. Learning it was one of the most impactful events in my life, so people with a different perspective are always a bit hard to understand...?
2 cents is enough to share your opinion!
@@weareallbornmad410i learned arabic to B2 just to shit on muslims in it before learning that diacritics weren't a thing back when the quran was written (and thus me promptly forgetting the language because it's a waste of time)
I'd imagine they got a PhD for either a similar reason or because they didnt have anything better to do when the guidance counselor suggested itm
@@angrydragonslayer I mean, PhD is your third university degree. I'd imagine most people are pretty much over the high school guidance advice. And a four year long degree - your _third_ one - doesn't seem like something you'd do out of spite
@@weareallbornmad410 what kind of pathetic spite do you have?
The “evil priest/ess” character (whatever their religion, real or fantasy) ALWAYS freaks me out, since I’ve been lucky enough to only have positive experiences with religious authorities.
It breaks my heart that most other people can’t say the same.
Most people can, you just won't hear anyone specifically mention that if everything's fine
@@alexanderlaird6206need to do a statistic to know if most people had bad or good experience with religious persons.
Myself I had bad experiences.
But unless we do a statistic etude, we can not know how many.
Well I don't have bad personnal experience with religious authority but it's because I don't debate with them on my view on religious authorities, feminism and LGBTQ+ community, I know it don't worth it. (I know there is tolerants ones but I don't want to play will I have a pleasant conversation or will I just heard hate)
Same. Also I discover more and more in how many instances the common picture of historical Catholic church is much worse than reality. Mostly, I think, because contemporary pop culture is created mainly by anglosaxon countries, so protenstants.
Same
His dark materials (golden compass) is VERY MUCH SO that archetype.
Yeah I just read the series and immediately thought of it
@@shadowcat4529 By the way, it’s a show now. I didn’t know about this for a long time, and just wanted to tell you in case you’d like to know.
Yeah I watched it before I read the books then I read it and enjoyed them even more. Now I’m watching it again with my younger sister!
Ugh you could feel the author seething through the page. I made it about half way through the first book before I decided i wasn't going to be part of his angry therapy session.
I mean between the arch bishop in the three musketeers and judge frollo in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, yeah that’s definitely a trope.
Funny, the Arch bishop in three musketeers is one of the best statesman in history. Really ruled to better France and regular people.
His bad reputation is from the nobles. The arch bishop forced them to correct their behaviour...
@@reduande Richelieu was an amazing person of his time ... Yeah, I read up on him after the 70s 3 Musketeers movies Found that having Charleton Heston cast in the part made way more sense than it should have ...
@@omegatired True, Heston playing the role is a good hint about the Richelieu...
The fact that an "evil Catholic" is considered an archetype in fantasy is ironic considering that the father of fantasy was a devout Catholic.
Arguably, it's Lord Dunsany who was the father of fantasy while Tolkien was its great populariser (though not initially and definitely not on purpose).
I see priest in fantasy, I assume one of two things: kind _OLD_ man who runs an orphanage and gives the MC(s) a place to stay the night in the rain kind of guy with no real impact on the plot besides maybe being murdered to show how evil the actual villain is, or anything else that turns out to be the villain or at least like the villain's right hand man.
That's funny, I don't come from a Christian background, but I too write sometimes for myself, and I can say that it's accurate, not because of religious trauma, but because of power hungry authority figures trauma. 😂
C. Dale Brittain's Wizard of Yurt. He's not evil. He is, however, attractive with dark hair an the priest of a Catholic Church. He's the main character's BFF and confidant over the course of the series.
I didn't even know this was an archetype and am a Christian man and when she said "priest" I immediately knew he was a villain. I gotta find new books.
every time there's a nice priest/religious figure I'm always nervous they'll turn out to be insane or evil because it's a common trope
Honestly makes me wanna write a story where the priest is kind, good for spiritual and general advice and is an all right stand up guy
Sure lots of violence and war in the background but my guy just loves Jesus and helping people
@Ian-yd9tl I approve, but if it's christian it'll have to be a non-hell version or that priest will come across as either blinkered or trying to save people from an evil god.
I’m writing an AH comedy romance in queer-friendly 1920’s Britain. The “cute but hapless curate” archetype is a lesbian who’s too shy to give sermons and has a crush on the local duchess.
To be fair, it’s not that bad for a priest to be just a little bit insane.
As a fantasy author this gives me an idea for a bait and switch.
Great idea!
My current D&D campaign is literally that. The priests in my campaign literally have devils serving them but they’re not the evil ones. They and the party are trying to topple an evil empire that persecutes religious minorities and twists the doctrines of major religions to suit their purposes. The gods are angry at this but due to divine law, they cannot send angels to just destroy the empire, so they made a deal with Asmodeus to lend devils to their clerics to help them overthrow the empire.
"Since when has 'Evil Catholic' been an archetype?"
Since the late 1400s _at the absolute latest_ with the publication of Heinrich Kramer's Malleus Maleficarum and the onset of the witch hunts.
I mean, the church didn't particularly like his work, to put it mildly. He literally had to force his way to be even recognised, and many people thought his own ideas were heretical.
Too accurate. It's a tired old archetype, though. Especially in high fantasy.
I wish most authors would tone it down a bit, and I'm not even Christian.
Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn had an evil priest, a good priest and a morally grey monk. He also did a lot of religious corruption and did a fair job at displaying religion in a medieval setting to the people living it. The only issue is some of his characters were a bit too unreligious but they were usually children who got reprimanded and learned to keep thoughts inside. I actually found it surprisingly realistic and wondered how much research he had done on medieval life since it was written in the 80's and 90's and that research would have been a lot more limited.
Also the evil priest was basically summoning demons for an evil queen who was afraid to die alone so she plans to take the world with her. She has no "men did me dirty" type motivation just the age old fear of mortality.
This channel needs to be more popular, all of your videos are hilarious
not me screaming "SINCE FOREVER" at the screen just for the other character to say the same thing xD
Bold of you to think him being a villain will stop me
This is another example of how JRR Tolkien went against the modern stereotypes of fantasy literature
as an aspiring fantasy author you're not wrong about religious trama
Frollo, from The Hunchback of Notre Dame: “Hold my beer.”
Not all fantasy authors have religious trauma. Case in point, Tolkien and Lewis.
To be fair; Lewis DID have religious trauma- he simply overcame it.
Check out the book "A Hobbit, a Wardrobe, and a Great War." They both had multiple kinds of trauma. Institutional trauma comes in many flavors, and lots of them are religious.
Some of us keep trying until we find the right one for us.
@@authorkellylclarkyeah Lewis was pretty bitter towards Christianity due to certain events in his life but changed his mind
Tolkien definitely had PTSD! He retreated into Middle Earth, and forgot to come back.
Lewis remembered to rejoin reality now and again
@@allieoneal2033I don’t think the Hobbit was about trauma.
"All fantasy authors have religious trauma"
Damn, why'd you have to call me out like that!
“Evil catholic” archetype is a staple of Japanese fantasy, especially in JRPGs. I’m saying this as someone who has never played a JRPG, and I know it’s a staple
What does it mean if I am fantasy author with no religious trauma?
(also I am quite sure Tolkien and Lewis also didn't have one... Ok, Lewis could have, but Tolkien probably not)
I would venture to say that Lewis definitely did.
That you're not a real fantasy author... Or perhaps the fact you BELIEVE you've never had any religious trauma means you're an author in a fantasy? Or maybe I'm just pulling stuff out of my miracle hole.
Both are Christians. Tolkien is Catholic and therefore high church. I think Lewis is Anglican, so can go both ways
Lewis didn't have religious trauma, but he absolutely, viscerally hated the school he once attended.
@@cerebrummaximus3762 I know, but being Christian does not mean you automatically have religious trauma
I find them being a villain a good thing 😂
Always thought it was so romantic that a villain would sacrifice the world for the person they love whereas a hero would sacrifice the person they love for the world ❤
Okay, but now I want to create a series...
"Fantasy Love Interest Hotline, how may I help your pining for a fictional character who'll never know you exist?"
Why did that hit so hard? Like, I right mostly fantasy, but I wasn't expecting that, at one point I was catholic though and I do have an unknown source of trauma, wait... 😮
2:27:20 excuse me Sir, I was NOT expecting that brilliant burn. I choked up laughing.
As a fantasy author i am confused. I do not have religious truama and am actually religious. I just love morally grey characters because they are fun to write and learn about
Unless you make the morally grey characters out of people from your own religion/confession, you may be very well contributing to this.
I'm a Christian author and as far as I roll if I write evil people who are religious it's because those people actually exist. Not all who claim to be of my faith are good and that if fact.
Angels and Demons anyone?
Literally my favourite character...😭😭
I was depressed the entire day...
As a Catholic, the “Evil Catholic archetype” gets pretty annoying. It’s like, duh there are bad Catholics, even bad priests, we’re human beings. But we’re not ALL evil! 😂 It’s honestly refreshing when I see movies or books where the Catholic is a good guy or when it’s just not a big deal that they’re Catholic
I’m not catholic, but this trope bothers me enough that in the fantasy novel I’m writing the catholic priest is a good guy. Totally wrong in his beliefs about the fair folk, but definitely the kindest, more moral figure in the story.
@@lyamainu That’s great to hear! Maybe I’ll get to read your book someday!
@@lyamainu What do you have planned as the title? Fantasy and romance aren't really my thing (I know), but yours sounds like it might be an exception :)
I know that feeling.
Father Brown is not Catholic nor fantasy, but I love his portrayal. And Call the Midwife as well. I think those shows do a good job of showing moral but fallible people in a balanced way.
I love the fact that the first character that came to my mind is Geto (before the evil catholic part)
One of the things that always annoys me about the fantasy genre is the exclusion of any good religious people
It is a YA book, but try Margaret Rogerson's Vespertine.
I’m actually writing a series where the love interest is a seminarian! (He ends up discerning out, which is how he is the love interest, but he’s still very devoted to his faith).
He’s the moral backbone of the books.
@@elizaeligio3669any names we should be looking forward to?
Hello! I'm a Christian fantasy author. I frequently write good religious people in my stories.
@@oliviaelderberry9423 Please, name your book.
Every manhwa with a church tbh
Oh NOOOO! This was me when I read A Stepmother's Tale!!!! 😭
"Since when has evil Catholic been an archetype?"
"So there's these things called the crusades..."
That's already kind off a stereotype. Crusaders were insane, but not really worse than othe medieval people.
WAY before the crusades. Since the invention of hell, since they didn't stop describing the god behind such an infinite evil as being good.
@@Isaac-hm6ihUh... I don't think you studied that well...
@oliviaelderberry9423 You're talking about Marcionism? They were never the only sect though.
@@Isaac-hm6ih I was saying God wasn't evil for creating hell.
I guess you could also be a devout Catholic and just get your trauma from war...
He had some trauma before that from his widowed mom being told by the relatives "Sure, we'll help you and the kids ... but you have to quit being Catholic, first."
My first thoughts: “No I haven’t read a book with an evil catho- oh well there was that one but that was i- wait that other one also- god DANG IT”
Fantasy READERS, too! Lol!
Trinity Blood started a tall catholic priest who was a good guy, IIRC, though he had white hair.
This does NOT apply to the Tortall books!!!
The villains include: a literal bully, a noble, more nobles, an emperor, a prettyboy bully, a crazy king, a scumbag and a murderer, a mafia boss (essentially), more nobles, the goddess of Chaos, a prince. And a few more nobles.
The song of the lioness and co. By Tamora pierce???? Love the works❤❤❤❤❤😍😍😍😍
@@ilikeanimeandmanga7823 those are the ones!
I have no idea how your channel wound up in my feed, but I am SO gratefulTerrific stuff.
AGREED. Catholicism gets a ton of hate in media. You don't really see that nearly as much as other faiths.
So? I’ll still like him.😂
sometimes i'm not sure if someone is a villian until i see the common troupes
Can only speak for myself, but there's a reason why some of the heroes in my stories have to contend with the troubles of religion. Some of the people who practice one particular faith have good intent, and some of its practitioners are even genuinely good people; however, a few other characters are having to come to terms with the darker experiences they went through. And while there are a number of other faiths, one of the few other prominent religions practiced in that world setting have been heavily skewed towards praising conquistadors like saints-while enslaving the most vulnerable peoples outside of their kingdom.
The different faiths have their pros and cons, and the different characters have to make sense on what paths they're meant or willing to follow.
It's not meant to be a demonization of faith, so much as a critical look on both the bad and the good that can be done by people from different walks of life. I've got my trauma, but I don't spite religion in its entirety; I am of the belief that there are good people in different faiths who have good hearts, and mean the best for others. Not to say that they're not above their own flaws, so much as consideration can be made of intent behind their actions.
"The road to hell is usually paved with good intentions" **is** a common trope, but aside from the wicked and misguided, there are genuinely considerate and compassionate people that can be found among various faiths. The trauma shouldn't be buried and forgotten, but neither should the same fate befall the kindnesses done through the power of faith-and this is coming from an agnostic that's dealt with both bigotous kin and considerate people from the nost surprising of places.
People are complex, and I always enjoy trying to explore complexities of characters in stories.
Holy sheesh that is a long comment.. must've taken a long time
YOU HAD OPEN MY EYES
I WAS RAISED CATHOLIC AND STILL AM 😭😭😭😭😭
Reminds me of a book I read, Vespertine, where *SPOILERS AHEAD PLEASE STOP IF YOU WANT TO READ THE BOOK IT WAS REALLY GREAT HIGH FANTASY WITH COMPLEX CHARACTERS* I was *so sure* that the priest was evil, even after they mentioned his eyes in a sort of generic romance way, and then it turned out the church was evil and he was being lied to???
I actually read a book the other day and I kept thinking everyone was a bad guy like I wasn’t SO sure that they were all traitors and then they were all actually rlly rlly good and none of them were traitors and the bad guy was the only bad guy. I felt like a bad person.
I'm writing a fantasy series now that's focused on vampires and the Catholic Church. ❤
...I want to read it
Alright, l am getting memories of the manhwa, "kill the villainess" And "your ultimate love rival"
As someone who reads too much, the moment the god was identified as female I also went for "yeah, he's evil".😅
Me a manga/comic reader who knows how the waters will be like by seeing the hair color and face shape.
Me who likes mostly villains: 😂
Can confirm as fantasy author, I can’t go inside churches without having a minor panic attack, therapist says it’s generational 😞
Let's be honest it's doesn't have to be fantasy or a book for the "evil priest" Stereotype to be used. Also it's an over used one at that.
as a fantasy author, you did NOT need to call me out like that 😭
Girl, I'm not even Catholic and *_I_* have Catholic trauma.
(But I'm just a fantasy fan, haven't written since I was a kid)
As a Christian who is in the process of writing a Fantasy Novel this is just SO TRUE
Me, a Christian aspiring to become a fantasy author, looking over to Lord of the Rings and Narnia with confusion
'Hes a villain.'
Me: even BETTER
Tolkien was happily Catholic…
Yeah, but I have always associated Saruman with this trope. It's possible that Tolkien knew a religious leader like him, but never let it shake his faith.
When she mentioned evil catholic my mind went straight to Frolo from the hunchback of Notre Dame
Ok so umm... She's has read the last chapter, but she's not clear if he's the villain or not.... 😊
It's probably the last chapter she read
Aka she read 16/20 and in the 16th chapter inquisition appeared.
The first thing i thought of wasn't a book but a webcomic called Fantasie of Stepmother which has an evil priest character.
After watching this I scrolled and saw “Hell as Well” song💀
So....soooooo true
PLEASE I once again beg you to get yourself a copy of Diana Wynne Jones’ “a tough guide to fantasyland” you’ll love it SO MUCH
There’s a webcomic I’m reading where basically everyone is bi and the FL has three possible love interests: guy who had ML energy at the start, guy with 2ML energy, and 1000+ y.o. woman whom the entire comments section simps over.
You meet the first guy super early on and you get the vibe of “this is going to be a straight love story with vibes that make it seem gay but it’s actually not gay and everyone here is straight” BUT IT IS ACTUALLY HELLA GAY (bi) and it’s so refreshing to not have queer bait for once. Also if you are wondering if it’s a “oh well they make it so the bi mc goes for a guy because the author is uncomfortable writing queer relationships” it is not there are 2 cannon queer relationships and 0 cannon M-F relationships. Anyways I am rooting for 2ML because although the (not immortal?) immortal woman is my favorite character her relationship with the FL is kinda toxic BUT NOT IN AN ABUSIVE WAY THANK GOD even when you ignore the age gap of over a thousand years.
Now, you might be wondering, what about the guy who had ML energy at the start? Well, turns out he’s a merciless child-murdering genocidal religious zealot with specifically evil catholic energy (although the god he serves is a woman, so equality ig? Evil men can worship women, too! Lol). I want to see his head on a pike and I will burn the whole world down if he gets with the FL
I was about to comment this and it turns out I already did 😂
I was about to comment this and it turns out I already did 😂
C.S Lewis and Tolkien didn't believe in God for a LONG time until they made their books. They are litterally the fathers of fantasy and fit this archetype 😭
I mean… the Catholic Church has killed a LOT of people. Like, more than 50 million. And that’s being generous. So… is it wrong to make them the villain? 🤷♀️
The Catholic Church is the reason you can read and write. Also, sorry for stopping human sacrifices and creating universities.
Hitler was a Protestant…I don’t think you want to look into those numbers.
Most groups, religious or ethnic, have been involved in a lot of war and death at this point. This does not make war or death okay, but maybe check the beam in your own eye first?
Most of the deaths caused by “Catholics” were not condoned by the Catholic Church, but rather were political grabs. The crusades? The pope wrote to Ferdinand telling him not to, but Ferdinand threatened the pope instead. The wars in England between Protestants and Catholics? Much of it was about solidifying the power of the new ruler.
The Catholic Church, every day, feeds, clothes, educates, and shelters more people than any other charity.
Konstantin from the Winternight series. probably one of my favourite villains ever written, I have never hated anyone as much as I've hated him
"Since when has 'evil Catholic' been an archetype?" I would say about the same time the Catholic church was created
Me hearing her talking about religious trauma: Oop, I've been summoned
But seriously, churches alone are a threat to my physical and mental health. (I start having panic attacks, trouble breathing and pain all over my body when inside one. It's annoying and scary) Ofc that's not all
Me (whose been raised Catholic and is currently writing a fantasy novel about the evils of a church plotting inquisitions): 😮
I have a "True believer" priest (who is wholesome AF) and an "evil Catholic" priest in the same story. It's an ongoing complication for the MC who was abused by the evil priest and then befriended the good one before learning that his new friend is a priest.😅
"Since when has 'evil Catholic' been an archetype?" Since the Catholic church went evil. 😂
Nothing wrong with liking a baddie. Sometimes you want to be in a dangerous situation. Not to mention redemption arcs and the temptation to fall arcs. Good baddies are absolutely wonderful.
Cue the line about art imitating life. But yeah, this isn't a trope, it's just a historical reference
I was introduced to the evil Catholic trope by my seventh grade teacher. Mrs. S, if you’re out there, I want you to know that you are a terrible person, but the villian of my romantic fantasy that’s based on you is SO FUN to write.
Immediately flashes back to hunchback of Notre Dame
If any one’s looking for fun books with non-evil Catholic characters as well as evil ones, “Brother Cadfael” detective books are pretty fun.
I’m not Catholic myself, I just like my fantasy/detective novel Catholic people to be similar to devout Catholics I’ve known.
So that’s why my stories are dystopian fantasy
That's me with Shadow and Bone. The Darkling is my favourite character but he's the villain.
Fantasy author here! I've got no religious trauma!! In fact I write Christian books and screenplays!
me, staring at my two wips involving an angel going to pound town (pop: demonic), "am I that predictable?"
Yeah. In all books where main character is an angel (s)he always fall in love with a human (if it's guardian angel) or demon and ditch his/her duties becoming either mortal or fallen. And also such character usually behaves like a human (from the get go despite not being human in past life) or a teen going through puberty
there’s always a possibility that he could leave the church when he finds out about the inquisition
priest: “this is not gods way brothers! we are to protect the sanctity of life, not tarnish it! If you go through with this… i cannot follow. i will not break my vows to taking a life!”
brother: “then you break your vows to disobey.”
priest: “so i must obey your will, or His will. the choice is clear to me now.”
brother: “THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME! HOW DARE BLASPHEME IN MY PRESENCE!”
I think you just summarized the plot of The Mission lol.
"fantasy authors have too much trauma" is too personal.
"Fantasy authors all have religious trauma." So true
I was kinda thinking of Luke from the Percy Jackson series
Sameeeee
@@alivingpun3121 ;DDDDDDDD
I'm a Christian. I write fantasy, I have nothing against the church or orginized religion as a whole... but yeah, nine times out of ten if i have a priest in whatever monotheistic religion is in a book I'm writing. He's probably a villain... not even a commentary of the church. Just the observation that those in a position of power will often abuse that power. Especially if they can claim moral superiority over others.
This made me have to sit down and ponder my whole life.
Pillars of the earth is a great show and book around building a cathedral. It has a good few priests, you have the bandit who broke from that life to help a orphan, you have the man who prays for his sister, the one who uses the church for a title and higher place, the gay guy who joined so he wouldn't be killed, the Bishop who just wants power and to get to the top just to look down on everyone else.
Then you have the one the Bishop fears, the one who actually believes what he preaches and can't be brought no matter the price.
I will forever be thankful for Kurt Wanger in the X-men, for once I don’t think a priest in media would burn me to the stake and I love him for it