Thomas Litz USA - 1964 OG Free Skate (first man to do triple toe loop)
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In an era when men were practically forbidden from raising their arms above shoulder level, musical interpretation had to be done from the waist down and back in 1964, you would have been hard pushed to find a better example than this incredible performance by Tommy Litz, who also landed the first triple toe loop in major international competition here. He finished in sixth but was second in the free and even had three first places. This was despite his own judge placing him TWELFTH(!!!!) in the free.
The more things change the more they stay the same. What an amazing performance. Beautiful technique, solid edges, excellent jumps. I skated with Tommy in Ice Capades. What a beautiful solid performer he was. Nice to see this old clip. The skaters today don’t even come close. Too bad school figures were eliminated from the sport. They make a huge difference in edge control and overall strength of the sport.
definitely
I support you. Seen the technical perception his LP is absolutely perfect, the A marks underrated for sure. The jumps are consistently high, from EDGE to EDGE, and not from scratch to scratch, as most quads are today. That all as a byproduct of the compulsories (that I miss so much).I don't see a single fault except 0:37 perhaps a dubble loop? Of course style and artistery are à la Emmerich Danzer, somewhat neglected, but due to those times.
I'm tired just watching!
School figures were, in competition, not so interesting to watch, but their value to the underpinnings of skating made an enormous difference!
What passes for footwork these days is too often pathetic.
I love these old clips because we can see how our sport has changed and advanced over the decades. What I find interesting about a lot of the free skating from back then is that the programmes were not front loaded like we see very often today (although the extra points for difficult elements done in the second half of the programme is starting to diminish that a bit). We see here that Thomas does both his triples - toe loop and salchow - late on in the programme and his next two most difficult elements, the two double axels are also done half way through. It seems rather than get the most difficult jumps out of the way in the first couple of minutes while he's still fresh and not so tired, Thomas starts off with relatively simple double jumps and kind of works up to his harder jumps. I find that rather refreshing.
We're they triples?
@@GallinaGarkina Were what triples?
@@npe1 you wrote that he had done triples. I don't think that they were triples.
@@GallinaGarkina Triple toe loop at 2:57 and triple salchow at 3:29 in the video.
@@npe1 Yeah, indeed, you're right.
I much prefer the simplistic choreography of this era to the arm flailing, posing and posturing seen in today's skating. It's refreshing to have the skater's talent shine without grandstanding and embellishment.
Yep. Most “footwork” today is a bunch of flailing arms trying to distract from the lack of actual footwork.
I had the pleasure of him helping me with my flip jump at the olympic center. Hes such a kind person!
omg he generates speed so effortlessly. That, my friends, is edge quality and skating skills!!
Like G&G. The superior edging and skating skills that are not blatantly obvious, but undergird the performance as a whole. Yes!
Very innovative program for 1964, so many transitions. 2:55 3T - so effortless!
Crisp tight jumps, amazing footwork with clever intros, blurry spins. Superior musicality. He has it all.
Fantastic to see! His knee action alone in his stroking was as good as any ice dancer. What a great video. Thank you for posting.
I find this clip very interesting. This man had excellent transitions in an era of many crossovers, jump, many crossovers, spin, many crossovers, jump, etc., etc., etc. This program had quite few simple crossovers. I found his footwork impeccable throughout the program, and his musical interpretation rivals ANY comtemporary skater. His spins did have far fewer rotations than modern-day spins, less complexity, and fewer positions, but they did have impressive speed. Some of the spins also travelled quite noticeably. His jumps achieved some height and distance but lacked the finesse of modern jumps, particularly the flat-footedness. All in all, this man had skills quite ahead of his time. We can easily see him as a precursor to Ondrej Nepela, Toller Cranston, and John Curry in advancing the technicality and especially the artistry of men's figure skating.
I met him a few years back! He's a very nice man and a very talented painter.
He’s so fun to watch! I love all the footwork and quirky moves he does throughout. Great jumper for the time!
So elegant! ⛸
A 5 minute program??? Holy cow!
The step sequences he did going into many jumps made it so lively, and was rare at the time. The "Litz step" was a sequence my coach taught me in the 1970s, but Tommy doesn't do that particular sequence here.
It's so interesting to see how much figure skating has evolved. Back then a triple toe loop was considered making history, now a triple axel almost isn't even worth commentating in men's FS
At least he lands on an edge and holds it, unlike most of today's skaters who land on their toe pick!
floskate, thank you for sharing Tommy's wonderful 1964 Winter Olympic free skate program! 🙂
Back time it seems men used their hands/arms just for keeping the ballance! But now...there is Yuzuru Hanyu who lift fs at another level! Our GOAT!!! 🙂💖
The evolution of men's skating is phenomenal.
Thank you Frazer for posting.
Wow, this is really high quality free skating, but greatly undermarked.
How could he only place second in this free program.
I think we would have to wait another 8 to 10 years (Cranston and Curry) to see a program that beats this. He really lets the music tell him what to do.
Judge 8 and 9: 5,3 and 5,4 ?
What miracles were they expecting from the other skaters, marking that low?
Love how much more focus there was on the footwork and dance elements - this was amazing, and what form he must have had to do this in such a long program!
Thank you for sharing, that was mesmerising.
I know very little about ice skating, but I love how precise his footwork looks.
Just a wonderful program and that clean triple toe loop just beautiful skating, I truly enjoyed that.
Thanks so much for posting. Love how he started his program with double salchow and double toe and double salchow, just warming up. Love his footwork and speed and flow. Much more interesting to watch than today's flailing step sequences. Also love the 2A-2A sequence.
Tommy was from Hershey FSC a few years before me. Only saw him in Capades, never in comp. Thank you so much for posting this. :-)
Thank you for sharing this. I belonged to Square Dance Club with Thomas prior to His Skating career. I have been looking for this performance for years. Such a talent ! Thank you. His posture and edges predate those of Curry and Wiley. Wonderful !!
Very entertaining program, great speed!
Wow!! watching this video (and also videos of John Curry in the 70s) is really eyeopening. It shows just how much skating skills and even spins declined during the 1990s when the focus became solely on triple jumps. Thomas has WAY more transitions and difficult turns *performed at speed* here than most of the top programs in the 90s, and better spins than most of the 90s men as well.
Say what you will about IJS, but it did manage to help bring back transitions and difficult turns back to skating, especially as the StSq rules have evolved. Obviously it's still less refined than this, but it's better than what we had going into Salt Lake when spins were pretty meh and transitions were often nonexistent. Much of the 90s programs were basically just crossovers into triples with spins as rest breaks.
that's because there are no figures and the deductions for technique were really costly, including cutting up the ice like the horrible Plushenko gold garbage. when you watch his jumps, you see how fast that extension is made, often long before he hits the ice. Today getting extension is rare and very little attention made on actual flow or artistic quality...
Good description.
Amazing performance. Even more credit due to him when you realise the boots were quite soft leather compared with the boots today.
Notice the side-by-side legs rotation position in the triple jumps even. Great ankle/knee bend.
He paved the way for Elaine Zayak with that 3TL, she had a lot to thank him for!
There really was no place for the judges to hide in those days if their marking was obviously bad. Right in the middle of the ice, in full view of everyone! Now THAT'S accountability, unlike today where you don't see judges or know who decided what...
Loved seeing this. I would have enjoyed some Dick Button commentary for this performance. Can you imagine his excitement?!
Well this was quite impressive, I liked it a lot!!! The jumps were great and the whole choreography was very connected to the music. I looove the way scores were given, I would do this even today!
I don't ever recall seeing the judges right out on the ice like this!---although I began watching figure skating in the 70s, I think. No replays back then...had to pay super attention the first time!! I found myself giggling and thinking, "Don't get too close and crash into them." And, "Hope you're not swinging your leg too wildly when you pass by, and accidentally kick somebody---bet that would affect your marks!"😁
시원시원하고 보는 재미가 있네요. 멋있습니다👏👏👏
Loved how men wore suits in competition back then.
Judge probably put him low so Scott Allen could get a medal
Love the performance and these old clips
As a child, I spent my summers living with the Litz family in Hershey, Pa where we studied under Felix Kasper, two time world champion. Those years were glorious for me. ⛸️⛸️
O gosh, wonderful. Genius. Greetings from Germany. Great skills. Perfect posture. WOW!
Легко и непринужденно! 💯
Wirkt zum Teil schon fast rührend. Da sieht man welche Entwicklung der Eiskunstlauf genommen hat und was die Läufer heute leisten müssen.
Really interesting to see these clips. What strikes me immediately is how distracting it must have been to have the judges sitting out on the ice surface. One bad fall on a jump and you could have taken a couple of them out at the same time.
I hope to be able to embody even a crumb of his technical strength in the skating I do some day.
Thank you for another treat! What a program! LOVE his music choices. no ‘jump’ cuts, or stops in the choreography to change music - exceedingly unusual. His flow is superb. Some here mention about the decline in skating skills from the 1990s - this was of course after school figures were abolished. Correlation or causation? I think I know which! And what was judge number 8 watching and where was she from?!
The USA. It was his own judge!!!
@@floskate That’s outrageous! Wonder why?
@@ddjr6673 Scott Allen was in line for a medal (he won the bronze). Who knows how many backs were being scratched behind the scenes? But I will say that Allen skated very well and given his good figures, thoroughly deserved his bronze I think. No need for shenanigans to make it happen!
@@ddjr6673 Poor school figures? Too far back after school figures(13th)?
He had great energy and speed
What is this music? I love it
The last two "judges" were nutso! Probably lots of politics involved...a common situation in years past. There should've been some 5-9s in there, as well. So glad the scoring system was up-dated. Great performance, anyway.
In the 6.0 scoring system, one does not compare the marks among the judges for that one skater. One compares the marks of one judge among the skaters and assigns the placement.
For example, if the marks are:
J1 J2 J3
Skater A 5.7 5.8 5.3
Skater B 5.8 5.7 5.4
The placements are:
J1 J2 J3
Skater A 2 1 2
Skater B 1 2 1
Skater B wins because a majority of 2 out of 3 judges ranked him at 1st place.
In the competition in the above video, Litz was ranked 2nd place in the Free Skate.
OMG! Tommy Litz! I'd forgotten about him. Where do you find all these old competition videos? I probably saw this when it was broadcast in the US. What was the deal with men's arms about? Seems crazy.
It's how it was. John Curry once told how when he was growing up he was actually told to be less graceful. The really good free skaters like Litz, Gary Visconti, Scott Allen, Tim Wood etc were able to still interpret the music beautifully. Then we saw more experimentation, John Misha Petkevich for example, before Toller and John revolutionised it.
@@floskate Thank heavens! I think it would have been impossible for John Curry to be "less graceful". It's just dawned on me that was just code for "don't appear to be gay."
@@bevinboulder5039 that's basically it, yes.
@@floskate thanks for mentioning Toller. People gave him so much grief for pushing the boundaries.
Que lindo 💯🤳🏿
It was the first Olympics since the plane crash that killed the ‘61 US Skating team.
Extraordinary performance. Unfortunately, the rules of the day made it next to impossible to show any real fluidity of the upper body and arms. He had a huge amount of content here and unique style and flair. Very, very late but...BRAVO!!!
great post who coached him????
Felix Kaspar who was world champion in 1937 and 1938.
i wonder who the people siting on the ice on those chairs are. are they the judges?
Yes, back then the judges always sat on the ice because they would come out to centre ice and show their marks.
Long time ago one could boo a referee...now...nobody knows anything!
Omg imagine having to skate in a suit with a shirt and tie
That's what we did back in the 60s,it was toller Cranston in 1970 that broke the tradition.
Yes, I recall seeing old footage of Dick Button skating in a tie and suit, sometimes outdoors! I think that was the 40s, tho. I'm thinking he won the Olympic golds in '48 and '52, was it?
Just watching this again and there is a video of Don Jackson from 1962 in the sidebar. Just realized that Jackson's triple lutz preceded Tommy's triple toe loop. Pretty amazing, however, the lutz wasn't exactly a clean landing. Edited to add: Just watch the Don Jackson video and the lutz landing was clean, just had a wide swinging free leg. Apologies!
I find the idea that the teaching of compulsory figures in the past and therefore free skating of that era displayed superior edge control (ably illustrated by Thomas Litz in this wonderful video) to be somewhat contradictory. Litz was actually placed 2nd in the free skate, but only 13th in the figures. Surely in order to have skated so well in the free he should have had a better grounding in school figures to allow him to excel in the free? Karol Divin, on the other hand was placed 2nd in the figures but only 9th in the free. Wouldn’t his superior edge control lend itself to a better performance in the free? Through the years we have seen many worthy champions robbed of titles because of the bias towards figures in the marking system (Janet Lynn in 1972 is the obvious example). One thing’s for sure - Tommy Litz was bombed by judges 8 & 9, which is really weird, as according to Wiki, judge no.8 came from the USA (no.9 was the Soviet judge). Why would your home judge mark you down, especially after such a faultless skate? As for our “new” judging system, you only have to look at the edge control of elite skaters to realise that moves in the field/ skating skills etc. have adequately replaced compulsory figures.
Those scores are so low. 5.5? Has there ever been a time when scoring in FS wasn’t corrupt?
In the 6.0 scoring system, one does not compare the marks among the judges for that one skater. One compares the marks of one judge among the skaters and assigns the placement.
For example, if the marks are:
J1 J2 J3
Skater A 5.7 5.8 5.3
Skater B 5.8 5.7 5.4
The placements are:
J1 J2 J3
Skater A 2 1 2
Skater B 1 2 1
Skater B wins because a majority of 2 out of 3 judges ranked him at 1st place.
In the competition in the above video, Litz was ranked 2nd place in the Free Skate.
@@RaymondHng Regardless. How could the 5.4 judge give such a low score?
@@waynehentley4332 Again, the marks of one judge should not be compared with the marks of another judge for the same skater. The 6.0 system is a *_relative placement_* system, not a point-based system. What matters is that both judge #1 and #3 ranked skater B in 1st place over skater A. The majority of judges gave an ordinal of 1 to skater B.
@@RaymondHng I totally understand but 5.4 is a low score. What could the judge have deducted for?
@@waynehentley4332 Again, you are comparing the *mark* from judge #3 with the *mark* from judge #1 for skater B. You must remember that these are *_marks_* , not "scores". The 5.4 mark from judge #3 appears to be lower than the 5.8 mark from judge #1, but the 5.4 mark is still the _highest_ mark he gave to that *one skater out of all of the skaters* . There are usually about 25 skaters in a competition, so the range of marks for all the skaters that judge #3 gives can range from 5.4 to 2.0 (for example) while the range of *marks* that judge #1 gives can range from 5.8 to 2.4. But it is the ranking *(ordinal number)* of the skater in comparison with all the other skaters that determines the _relative placement_ of the skater. Judge #3 still ranked skater B in 1st place because the 5.4 mark of skater B is higher than the 5.3 mark of skater A.
Bravo⛸⛸👏👏
Si meritava un punteggio più alto.
Who was the guy at the boards with the fur coat!
Scotty Allen of the USA. He won the bronze medal here aged 14.
Oh my gosh I can’t believe you could identify him! Thank you 😊
Today's skaters rarely compare. Footwork, jump, footwork combos. Spread eagle, jump, spread eagle combos. Jump into squat. Landing jumps with hands on waist. Split jump, jump, split jump combos. Stall jumps. Don't see them anymore. So many of them look like fish out of water trying to land jumps they never should have attempted when they shouldn't have attempted them. Artistry has gone out the window.
Skating was skating back then now it’s just crossovers you don’t even need music figures should have stayedb
when u don't have time to change out of work attire before the skate session