Thanks to Keith Rucker, Steve Summers, and others I went with American Rotary a year or so ago. I couldn't be happier with my purchase. I actually just bought my third 3-phase machine for my shop the other day and my American Rotary phase converter will run them all. American Rotary's website was easy to navigate and their phone is answered in America and by someone who speaks English (very helpful). You wont regret your purchase from American Rotary.
I use both a rotary phase converter and a VFD in my shop. Both have their advantages. I disagree with his negative comments about VFD's. And being a Ham Radio Operator, I was especially offended with his blindsided un-educated comment about Ham Radio. I think the American Rotary Products sound like a great, well designed product, but I also learned early in life, not to bad mouth the competition or other things that I do not fully understand, as that usually, most always comes back to bite you. Keep up the great work Keith, you cannot control the opinions of others!!
I bought an American Rotary phase converter based on your advice. It is almost silent other than a little humming. It is beautifully made. I have my rpc on a mobile device.
Your interview underscores the flexibility 3 phase power gives you in your choice of machine. Whilst 3 phase power is uncommon in the domestic environment here in the UK, it makes me very happy that I have the luxury of 3 phase power in my home. My 3 phase machines are not only quieter, they use less power. Hats off to Nikola Tesla! Thanks for posting such interesting content, your channel just gets better and better.
Polyphase power in various forms was invented independently by no fewer than 5 people around the same time. Tesla was just one of them. People need to stop over-crediting Tesla for things he didn't actually invent.
@@SuperAWaC I stand corrected, thank you. I guess many things, like the incandescent light bulb which wasn't invented by Thomas Edison, but the Englishman Joseph Swan (later knighted by King Edward VII). Penicillin wasn't the sole discovery of Fleming, rather the messy desk of one of his research assistants, (my wife's grandfather) and Howard Florey (later Baron Florey). I guess the list of these self-publicists goes on.
@@christopherc7757 Like most things, the incandescent lamp is also one thing without a single inventor. Lots of independent inventions and work built on work. Edison was the one who cooked up the first commercially viable incandescent lamp.
Great video Keith. I picked up an American rotary 10hp converter a few years ago when I bought my lathe. Best decision I made for my shop. Since then I wired in a 3 phase panel with numerous circuits which made it easy to add numerous pieces of 3 phase equipment. It’s a quality piece of equipment that was a game changer in my shop.
I hesitated watching this. I figured it would be an advertisement. I bought my 10hp ADX two years ago. One of the best tools I have! Right, quiet, balanced power.
I had a electoral/mechanical business for 40 years that 90% of our business was industrial and would never think of building a converter in house. The time and money to build one out weighed getting one from a converter manufacture. VFDs replaced DC drives in applications where the speed of a motor needed to control a line or a mixer on a 30K gallon or larger tank. Very good basic interview.
Well, duh? And for the rest of us who would like to get into this as a hobby, with a supporting revenue stream expected never, can and do build ones for less than your average employee's weekly paycheck.
The only reason I built my own converter is cost. 20 hp motor was $10. Contactors and boxes $25, all auction pieces. Assembly time was days, but it works and I have less than $200 invested. The biggest cost was wire and time. I would love to get an AR converter but the cost is not in my budget. Great show Keith, love the channel. Thanks for sharing.
Hello Merica. I know there is big problems with 3 phase in your country, but somehow it is 21st century. There is nice solid state 1ph to 3 phase converters with variable frequency. You don't need one big converter, just several small ones for each motor. They are quite cheap and universal. And not noisy in all ways (who is listening AM radio?). And it adds variable speed, brake and current protection. Also soft start- no more stress for gearbox.
Hello Uropean or whomever, no, there really isn't any problem with 3-Phase in the USA. We did after all, invent it. 99% of our population doesn't need it, so the extra expense of installing it everywhere would be wasted. We're quite aware that its the 21st Century, we went to the Moon last Century. For the less than 1% of Americans who need 3-Phase power at home, the options are RPC, or VFDs. We know about VFD's, an American invented it. Please save your snarky comment until you lot get to the Moon or invent something...
I have multiple 240v and 480v machines run off my one American Rotary phase converter and can run multiple units all at the same time. Motors from 40hp to 1/3hp all run just like they were designed. :-) Much more affordable than the $100,000 to get 3 phase run to my shop.
Thank you Keith for doing this video. I'm in the process of getting my new workshop built...... hopefully break ground in the spring. I'll be running several bigger machines.... the Kearney and Trecker 3k that you and Ron helped me with, as well as my big monarch 60 series. American Rotary has always been my only choice for powering my machines. I like their quality as well as being an american product. This was a very helpful video and puts a face to a quality product.
Please do a similar discussion with the engineering department ... would be probably be less story telling and more precise ... really, the burning down the house story ... I think the uhaul guy told me the same story.
Switched from a name brand rotary converter( not American rotary) to phase perfect which is solid state and requires no programming many years ago. Advantages: always on - only 2% efficiency loss - better characteristics than the public utilities 3 phase - full hp from all motors - very very quiet when cooling fans occasionally run - can power many machines at once with no regard to motor size on which should be turned on first. Would never go back to a rotary converter. Check them out and see if they might be a better choice for you. Not sponsored by anyone.
I built my own. 3 phase motor and a capacitor that is wired to the third winding and either of the 2 other windings.My 3HP motor dont need a switch but on larger motors I use a push button to connect the capacitor, only while starting the converter motor.
Plus TV is all digital.. So nothing I can do on any amateur bands that will effect anything about broadcast TV.. As for VDSL, well.. That goes right through HF, so everyone hates everyone there. :)
@@ElectraFlarefire there are a lot of very empty bands these days with the digitization of radio and a sharply shrinking ham population. i live in a big city and could probably run a spark gap transmitter without anyone noticing except the ten people listening to AM talk radio
You can buy VFD inverters for any size machine which convert your single phase to 3 phase for motors. They also have the functions of variable speed, dynamic braking and can be controlled by PC input for specific cycling, stop-start-reverse etc. Each machine can have its own dedicated inverter sized specifically for the particular motor and requires no wiring of conduits etc., just plug in to existing single phase outlets. Inverters are available in 110 volt input for small machines and 220 for the larger units. Pricing is from 75.00 for a 1/4 HP motor to 175.00 for a 5HP motor.
I went from a rotary phase converter over to VFDs in part because I got a mill to go with my lathe, and I wanted variable speed on both machines. Eliminating the background noise from the idler motor was a nice benefit. Also, my power company has been talking about adding demand charges to their residential rates when they go to Time of Use pricing, and VFDs have less "ringing" when the motor starts. I can also use the same extension cord to hook up the mill or the stick welder, and copper costs real money. I'm working in or in front of my garage, and fixed wiring isn't practical. American Made doesn't address the technical differences between RFC and VFD, nor the less tangible benefits tradeoffs. RFCs are a more mature technology, while VFDs are a more recent development, with about 40 years of practical use now. RFCs are a good lower cost alternative for motors which need to run at a constant speed with a predictable load and for a long period of time. Rotating inertia is a fact of life. VFDs are often used instead of a "soft" starter - this is a benefit if your power utility is unhappy about back EMF and/or has demand charges - something that is starting to show up in residential rates in North America. A VFD gives a noticeably cleaner voltage curve on start for a given motor with a generally lower current spike. There are pros and cons to either solution - what's best for me might not suit you.
His comments about VFDs are not fair: he was talking about cheap Chinese VFDs and compared them with quality equipment. Compare a Siemens VFD installed with the line-side suppression you are required to, then all his arguments against them are gone, warranty and support included. AND you have the advantages. A lot of equipment in 3-phase countries is run on 3-phase VFDs for those functions: variable speed, variable run-up and run-down, braking, remote reporting and control, fault protection etc etc.... They "just happen" to also be able to be fed by single phase and even DC. Lifts and lift doors pretty well everywhere in the world are running on VFDs, so I don't think reliability is even in question....
VFD's have their place. When it comes to variable speed and the need to program certain functions into a motor, they are invaluable. But, if your goal is simply to create three phase power, they are not always the best option - particularly when you need to run multiple machines. A Rotary Phase Converter will end up being a more reliable and cheaper option in the long run if your are running more than one machine. As for VFD's - I have and use two in my shop, however, I am feeding both of them three phase power off of my phase converter so that I don't have to size them up by 50% to get full power out of them. For most home shop people who will have the need to run more than one machine, I strongly feel that a rotary phase converter is a better long term option. If you do need a VFD for motor control, I suggest that you buy a quality unit like you suggest and stay away from the cheap imports - which is what most home shop people gravitate towards. Oh, and while we did not mention it in the video, if you have a need for a VFD, you can contact American Rotary as they also sell these and provide support for the units that they sell.
@@VintageMachinery I completely agree with you in principle. Just a simple question and comment: Do you know where the myth of having to downgrade single phase run VFDs came from? I have no idea nor can I figure out any logic in it... They are designed for a specific output and don't care in the slightest where the power at the input comes from. You just need thinner wires if you bring the power in on 3 wires instead of 2.... I have approximately 11 VFDs in my home workshop - including 3 on my cylindrical grinder alone. There it allows me to correct the surface speed of the wheel, the rotation of my work and the flow of the coolant, all by changing motor speed on the fly. They range in age from around 35 years old to a brand new one. NONE have ever been down-rated and most have been run at maximum load for hours. Occasionally I overload my mill and lathe motors and they reduce their output back to their rating after some seconds - or switch off if I don't back off quickly. None have failed for that reason. I have had failures due to dried up capacitors one once due to an underrated rectifier in a Chinese one. Both were repaired. I try to get used Siemens ones when I can. None of those have ever let me down. I can't find any reason to ever want an expensive and bulky rotary converter that uses significantly more power..... Interesting to hear both sides of the argument though.
@@JoeInBendigo It is NOT a myth. you do NOT have to upsize a VFD, IF it is made for single phase supply, but most VFD`s are made for three phase supply, and THEY NEED to be upsized, otherwise you WILL burn up the rectifier (as you are only using 2/3`s of it)
@@VintageMachinery I think you have 2phase (240V) outlet. Just feed it to regular 3phase VFD leaving one phase unconnected and it will run. Diodes will be 1/3 more loaded and sure it can handle. I am using very old 110V@3phase VFD (60Hz) in european 230@50Hz 1phase grid for my lathe. Just connected it L and N to L1 and L2. And it run several years. And I get it for free as it was 110@60Hz unit in europe. P.S. do not forget that there is option to rewire motor from star to triangle to reduce phase voltage.
3 Phase power rules and so does DC power. Electric motors that are 3 phase have their own silent constant quality sound to them. DC motors are extremely quiet since the sine wave is flat vs up/down like AC. 3 Phase motors deliver very good continuous power efficiently too. Thanks for the reminder Keith.
Hello from Finland. Here we have all 3x400v tree phase system every house and shop. 240v is in one phase system. I have 3x25A fuses in my house and my shop. Here cost energy about 11 cent/(eurocent) /kwh. How much is it in America? All the Best for You and Your Family from Asko, Pimudog and Mickeycat.
That's interesting . i live in Rarotonga Cook islands , we pay 63c NZ KWH , but this year we had a Covert , cover for three months free power .that was nice of the government .to help us out
Our "super-saver" plan is 5 US cents/Kwh plus an on-peak demand charge between 3:00 and 8:00 week days. We run our side hustle shop off-peak. Not bad. If we ever go full-time legit there is some rethinking to do.
In New Zealand 415 V 3 phase is available outside every residence.You just have to pay to get connected to it as houses generally have a single phase 240 V supply. It is also common for adjacent houses to be connected to different phases. Which is why there have been accidents caused by homeowners trying to run high current equipment by interconnecting power cables from 2 houses.
Often times, the original innovator of something ends up with significant amount of older, original generation equipment in-place. Especially so for infrastructure/standards. 2nd/3rd/x Gen environments do run 3-phase out to the neighbor hoods, and in some places directly to residence (Germany/NZ), and single phases split along housing. Ultimately, unless your machining in your garage, switching over to 3-phase in the US would simply be a waste of time and resources. Even more so now, that more and more things are power-efficient and need less power. Single-phase 240v in the US gives more power than most people could ever use. Running 3-Phase all over is a waste of copper especially inside a residence where 90% of outlets will never use more than 1500-1800 watts. We pull our expensive 240 to the 1-2 location needed only, which saves $$ over-all.
I have a Lenze VFD, same as Stan Zinkowskis on my Mill. It has a step pulley head and runs super quiet. I love being able to adjust the speed on the fly with it. I’ve had it for about 4-5 years I guess and haven’t had any problems with it yet. I don’t agree with what he was saying with what do you get with cheap. I have been considering an American rotary phase converter though since I do have other equipment that is 3 phase that I’m fixing to try and get going.
I key up a kilowatt all the time on HF. The wife, the neighbors, know one knows. Why? Because my rig is clean and I keep it that way. Flourescent light ballasts, treadmill motors and touch switches are dirtier. In short, it was a very ill informed comment. BTW the VFD that I use to power my grinder is clean too.
Yes VFD's have their place, and to be honest that is how I run my shop. I do run name brand (Hitachi), which are a little more expensive, but here is where the problem comes in. Even though I have more control on my series1 J head Bridgeport, the "whining" is atrocious! You also need a VFD for every machine. Not a bad thought when you just have a 1HP motor, the VFD runs about $200. When you start powering larger motors is where it gets expensive. Any motor above 5 HP and you have to double the VFD. My 7.5 HP Monarch lathe needed a 15 HP VFD. The VFD was more than 1/2 of what I paid for the Monarch...not to mention what it would have cost me to hire someone to install and program it if I did not do it myself. By the time you buy VFD's for 3 machines, you could have had a phase converter.
Any manufacturer I've dealt with has charged for it, unless that is the only way they sell their equipment, ie. industry requirement. Which is rolled into the price. Aint nothin' free, as the adage goes. Best wishes
I have one the only problem I had was received it to fast .and don't know how the delivery guy got it to my door. I left one of my testicle on my front door lol had to get a hand truck great unit !!!
VFDs work pretty well up to 5 HP if you are looking to manufacture 3-ph and also get the benefits of the custom programming (variable speed, capacitive braking, interrupts, etc.). Doing all that stuff generally means re-engineering the electrical controls for your machine but I've seen some great implementations (not cheap, but great). Much bigger than 5 hp and you need to run a VFD off 3-ph power anyway. Horses for courses. Just picked up my ADX-20 to run a 7.5 hp lathe. Two speed motor (which will drive a VFD nuts). RPC was a much better solution for me. And I have my eye on a Harig 3-ph surface grinder. Very little extra effort to run another 3-ph circuit.
A few weeks ago we had a bad rain storm and it took out all the electricity in the entire small suburb city where I live. Berkeley Lake, GA. After a few days, we watched them fix a horrible maze of a mess; with lines on the ground everywhere. Since I taught electronics for 45 years; I made friends with the supervisor and he told me something that I still don't understand. IE: They brought in 2 phase service when the city was built; but it only goes a short line in the city. He said they use those 2 phases to create 3 phase service; for a large pump machinery; required by the core of engineers. As best I can tell, they took those 2 phases and then hooked up a large transformer to both of the phases. This then provides 3 phase service. But I still don't understand it. He used a technical term but I forgot it. If someone knows how that is done, I would appreciate your explaining it to me.
@@markpeterson5479 Thank you VERY much Mark Peterson. Now I understand it. I can't thank you enough. For I will stay up all night when I can't "Get it"; If you get what I mean.
I'm pretty sure color wouldn't enter into my choice of one of these. I have the knowledge to build one that would work, but I also know it would be larger, more prone to issues and if there were issues, it would be me that would have to sort them out. Just not worth the hassle.
I know people that screamed to me "You can just use VFD's, they are cheap, and Phase converters are expensive"...well, lets see...A Lathe, Mill, Baldor Buffer, big pedestal grinder, yea...now I need how many VFDs??? They REFUSE to get off the VFD kick, and I think they've spent at least 3 times what they would have by now if they had just gotten a phase converter. Oh well. If I get my shop...I'll be going with a Rotary Phase Converter.
In our factory we have 480 wild leg, the difference is the power to ground on that leg. Leg A 270V to ground, Leg B 420V to ground, Leg C 270V to ground. Any leg to leg voltage is 480V, the Wild B leg can't be used to power any lower voltage single phase equipment.
Hi Anna, I would expect slightly different voltages on your 480V wild-leg (aka, high-leg) delta. From your description, A-C has a grounded center tap. Thus, the voltage from A to ground and from C to ground should 480/2 = 240. The high-leg is from B to ground and should be 480 x sqrt(3) / 2 = 416V, close enough to your 420V. I don't get your 270 V from both A and C to ground. What am I missing? Or, are you just calling out your actual voltages. I'm used to seeing these being called out as the theoretical voltages (as computed above) rather than the actual measured voltage. Be well & Best regards, Gottfried
@@gottfriedschuss5999 I was calling out the actual measured voltage from memory, my memory may be wrong on the 270. But being that it's such high voltage and none of the panels are easily opened I'll just take your word for it that is should be 240. I know the 420 to ground on be is accurate (actual voltage) because I made the label for our electrician to put on the box as a warning.
Hi 218philip, Here is a brief explanation of high-leg delta connections in the USA; for more information, search the www for 3-phase power, e.g., Electrician U. First, a wild-leg is also referred to as a "high-leg". These refer to how the secondaries of the utility's power transformers (pole transformers / pole pigs, or pad mounted transformer) are connected. In your case, the three secondaries are connected in a "delta" (triangle) configuration. The secondary from the first transformer is connected from A to C, the second from C to B and the third from B to A. In addition, the A to C transformer has a center tap that is grounded. The voltage from A to B, B to C, and C to A, the phase voltages, are all three 240V. It's 120V from A to ground and from C to ground. However, the voltage from B to ground is 240 x sqrt(3) / 2 = 208V. This is far too high to connect normal 120V appliances, they would fry "let the smoke out" if one did so. This is the wild-leg or high-leg. As a precaution, most Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJs, aka inspectors) require the high-leg to be colored orange, either the insulation or by taping the wire with orange tape. A way to think of this is "orange equals caution/danger". It's fine to connect a 3-phase load to phase-A, phase-B, and phase-C; that's how you get 3-phase power. It's also fine to connect 120V appliances between phase-A and ground/neutral (hand waving took place here) and between phase-B and neutral. However, for almost all cases, never connect any single phase load between phase-B and neutral. It's too high for a 120 volt appliance and too low for a 240V appliance. I hope this helps. Be well & Best regards, Gottfried
Gottfried Schuss I am going to take the time to think very hard about how you explained my lack of understanding wild leg 3ph power but it might take a bit more time for me.
I think it depends on how you define 'first to have'. I say this because I'm in the UK within walking distance of Godalming, Surrey, the first town in the world to have a public electricity supply, primarily used for street lighting, in 1881. This was a year before Edisons Pearl Street Station went live. The first Electric Power Generation Station was operational in 1879 at at Cragside, Northumberland, in England, the home of Lord Armstrong, the industrialist. It supplied only his mansion. Both stations used German Siemens generators producing AC current and Swan, rather than Edison, Incandescant Bulbs. However, if you use various other definitions then Paris was 'first' in 1878 with arc lighting of a street of the Exposition of that year, or San Fransisco in 1879 with the first commercial sale of electricity, or Grand Rapids with the first commercial generator station in 1880. 1878 to 1882 saw a massive whirlwind of electrical 'firsts' with the 'winner' largely depending on how you define the finishing line. Saying the US was 'first' makes little sense, especially as most of the prior technical and scientific breakthroughs had been in Europe, but neither does saying Britain was first, or France was, or Germany was... However I do have a great affection for the idea that a small, otherwise anonymous, sleepy rural town in Southern England in some small way beat the rest of the world in something, however narrowly we have to define the 'rules'.
Made in the good ol US of A doesn't really sell it, brush up on your technical stuff and lead in with that, as to why its is better then this and that and the other.
Well, you could just be wanting to keep your money in your own economy, and not send it overseas. Or you may want quality, US made XYZ in GENERALLY top notch stuff. But of course you also need stuff from around the world, European cheese, South American beef, New Zealand lamb, wine/alcohol from the four corners of the world, spices from the far East. So YOU decide what to buy, from where.
@@jesperdahl1486 Of course, but I said to lead in with the technical stuff. Saying we got the flag printed on the side is no help. I'm sure you agree that Everything we make is not top notch.
@@iTeerRex Not all US made stuff is going to take you to the moon and back, BUT compared to low end Chinese made "stuff" US made anything, is remarkable well made, and it should be, it is much more expensive to manufacture things in the US.
For the people in Europe who have 3-phase power to their house, what are they running that requires that sort of power, coffee maker, stove? Are 3-phase appliances common in Europe?
With 3-phase we have 3x 230V power. So we use 230V for ligthing and normal sokets up to 10A = 2300 watt. The tumble dryer need one circuit breaker and the wasching mashine a extra cirucuit breaker. In the Kitchen we often have one circuit breaker for the dishwasher and one or two current breaker for the other sockets and ligth. But this are all one phase 230V devices, it is more of approximately same current on all 3 phase. For an stove we use 3-phase 380-400V up to 16A usaly fixed wired. Medium and big motors are allways 3-phase, a hand drilling machine is only 230V. For boling hot water we have small devices with 230V 10A and on the wall big one with 400V 3-phase up to 33000 watt.
@@jensschroder8214 I have always thought when the electrical grid was first being constructed in Europe, they wanted to promote industrialization by running 3-phase power everywhere, that it was a way to allow the beginnings of cottage industry. I have a feeling that a lot of government subsidies were involved to bring this about.
Yes, three phase appliances are not only common, they are the norm. A three phase range/stove is fed from a 3P 16A (400v) circuit, with a cable the size of your little finger, and not by a cable the size of a child's arm. Three phase is not (just) meant to run things that require enormous amounts of power, it really shines when you run motors, requiring NO capacitors or rotating start switches, just a contactor (and some over current protection) and you are up and running.
Just a suggestion..but I would not dismiss the value of VFDs for the home gamers. I am not an expert on any of this but based on my experience if my only option was a RPC I would still be waiting for 'some day'. The cost differential is almost 10 to 1 and for the shop with one or two 3 phase machines it is definitely the way to go. I must point out Chris is quite correct to say you get what you pay for...dont go with the cheap one...do your homework, and yes there is a learning curve. By going with a VFD you get to save that money for the day when you may need a RPC. RPCs are sized and if you go with the entry level model, chances are you will need to upgrade it to handle the capacity as you expand....the VFD gives you the freedom to enter the game at minimal cost. THEN you call up Chris and retire the VFDs (as I hope I will some day). There are lots of use cases out there and I am sure many would benefit more from the RPC investment, but if your plans for 3 phase power are not certain, you have nothing to loose by doing your homework, buying ~150 buck VFD, and taking some time to set it up. That said, if you have never worked with 220, or even rewired a lamp....call Chris at American Rotary....220 will kill you.
Thanks for the info - based on what I had been reading I had been thinking that a VFD was the only viable option, surprised that American Made can be so reasonably priced. Go Pack!
I always thought that a VFD was to give variable speed of a 3 phase motor. My wood turning lathe has one. The Rotary Phase converter does not give variable speed so I don't see why they are being compared am I missing something?
The more usual use of a VFD is for speed control, but you can also use one to generate three phase power from single phase. It's not super clean and I wouldn't use one for that on a CNC machine, but it does work. As was mentioned, if you get decent ones and the filters for them, by the time you set them up for 2 or 3 machines, you could have gotten the rotary phase converter. In most setups, you treat the output of the phase converter just as if it was thee phase from the pole with a proper panel and wiring to the machines.
Had a better opinion of American Rotary before I saw this guy. Seemed sort of vague on specific info. Did not open a box. Did not explain the dif between VFD and Rotary and how they work. Also knows little to nothing about Amateur Radio, electric companies, and harmonics. HINT: amateur radio operators today use factory built radios which must meet FCC emissions standards, which means no spurious signals up the power input to the electric company. Glad you got a sponsor Keith. Maybe next time get one of the engineers to explain the products. I'm sure American makes a good product, and it deserves to be explained a little better. my 2c IMHO
Tlhree minutes at the minute telling latecomers to your channel what's in one of these and how they work would have been nice. Felt like I came in in the middle.
On the "why not build one" topic, I've made the studies that allow me to build one safely and reliably but I still wouldn't build one. The thing is that for one it takes time to research and source the components, assemble it and when you factor all of that time buying one becomes just more profitable. And, let's be honest, it's not because you can do something that you should do it.
Considering you can build one for about $150 worth of parts(Few caps(Fairly big caps:), relays and a timer) using an old motor that you can get often for free(Or scrap prices) and a phase converter is often many thousands up.. I'm sticking to building one.. Plus I'd know know how it works in detail, what all the parts are and how to fix it, so if/when things go wrong, it's a simple repair. I do agree however that unless your quite comfortable working with 240 single and 415v 3 phase, I'd not suggest anyone build one. Mains is dangerous.
How long do you think he'd be able to do these video's without at least some support? And I mean more support than the 'Hey, great video, keep 'em coming' freeloading, like you and me? I much prefer one of these once in a while, vs so many of the others (good ones even) who seem to be shilling something or other in every other video. I still surprised that while none of us like advertising, so many people still feel as if some sacred vow has been broken when a YT'er who's put incredible amounts of time into their content and channel has the sheer audacity to get a little return on their investment... Actually I'm not really surprised. None of the people who complain ever seem have offered up their time and sweat equity for free to others, just freeload.
@@boots7859 Guess I'll reply, against my better judgement: My issue was simply with the signal to noise ratio of the sales guy from American Rotary (and judging from other comments, I'm not alone) ... no knock to Keith, who I respect greatly. Also, had you done your research, you would have seen that I do, in fact, have an uncommercialized channel of my own where I do give back to the community from my 35+ years of engineering experience. So, speak for yourself when you talk of freeloading. Anyway, apologies to Keith for taking up time on his channel with this conversation. No offense intended.
A•B had a series available a few years before they were sorted. A 10 HPish was under 10 grand. Good thing good ideas can wait for things to change. Had a 400HP soft start SCR'd Drive technology. The Snap Crackle Ramps were exciting. All's well that ends well.
I grew up in Milwaukee with a family named Feavel a block away. It's not that common of a name. I lost track of them nearly forty years ago, but Chris kinda reminds me of Jimmy -- I wonder...
So I was in the Military and we used motor Generators (400 phase) yes it was for a specialized purpose... but what is the difference between and MG and a phase converter??
@@paulg3336 Nope that is not how a phase converter works. a rotary Phase converter has a 3 phase motor used as an idler to generate the 3rd leg for 3phase and some capacitors and inductors to correct the phase shift and voltage difference to mimick balanced 3 phase power.
While I do not use rotary phase converters, I have used variable frequency drives from fractional hp to multi hundreds of hp. Have been doing so since the early 1980s for a company who is a member of the DOW 30. Did so until retirement 7 years ago. I take issues with many of his sales points. His credibility dropped to absolute zero with the derogatory statement regarding ham radio operators !
I lost interest in the video and went straight to the comments when the salesman started in on "American Made" when the subject of VFDs was raised. I've been an engineer in heavy industries for 35 years now, and we were using the then newfangled VFDs in cement plants and steelmills back in 1985.
How efficient are these things actually? Transforming always costs a little bit extra of course, but how much is it in practice compared to regular 3 phase?
As German electrician and electrical engineer, I can't understand why there is no 3 phase power. But I can say, a phase converter is the better solution than a VFD.
The three phase IS there, it is just not sold to home owners, and the entire system is set up to use single/split phase, so they only need three phase when they buy a piece of industrial equipment.
@@jecceworks A VFD is very good for a single motor. You need to configure it for that specific drive. I was talking of 3 Phase for the shop. Not every motor can handle a VFD. The old machines in a home shop are not designed for it. A VFD produces a lot of harmonics. You need big filters to get rid of them.
@@davidstr4946 Trust me, if there is three wires on the pole, there IS three phase power, and it is on every residential (99+%) streets in the US, I have never seen it with my own eyes, but supposedly at the far end of rural runs of power, they run only two wires, so three phase is no longer an option. A regular house does NOT need three phase, it just makes things easier/cheaper (thinner cables) you only NEED three phase power for (obviously) three phase motors.
In my Home here in Germany we have 100 Amp 3 Phase 400V coming in. Most normal Home's get around 60 Amp 3 Phase. No market for Phase Converters here. ;-)
We got a quote to run 3-ph from a storage facility 1/4 mile down the road. $65K. Pulling 1-ph off the tower that butts up to our property line we can easily access 400 amps, 800 with permitting, and add an RPC. Will get 3-ph power that is cleaner for galactically less.
@@imkindofabigdeal4308 I went with a phaseperfect digital converter for my CNC equipment, they are very pricey but so far well worth it. The thing is they can automatically balance the load, so the generated phase's voltage isn't too far away from the other two legs. So basically you can hook up a bunch of machines to a single power strip and have them all run with balanced voltages!
@@multiHappyHacker Phase Perfect makes a great system from what I hear. Wish 3 phase was a standard thing here but glad there are cost effective solutions.
VFD´s are Motor drivers! Thy have to be tuned to the Motor they are driving! You cant just plug them in eny maschine like you want´t. Only if you have the same Motor or at leest close on every maschine! I read about VDS´s, especialy in the US, that kill Motors and wear out contactors very quickly. And in the discusions i realised that americans are typicly not aware of how VFS´s work, and in general have not the best knowledge of electronics! they all din´t know that the VFD needs to know the parameters of the motor to work correctly, and wat happens if you give a f... and just plug the damm thing in is... It runs.. mor or less fine.. but the back emf´s and harmonics create allot of reactive current and high voltage noise that kills everyting in it´s proximity. And also they had effects that unsymetrical induced voltage createt a curent on the Rotors that sparked over the bearings to ground. Her in Germany you quickly get a call from your power caompany if you do that!!!
Seeing things like this just causes my heart to ache. I'm trying my damnedest to just get another wood shop going after an injury that forced me to just walk away from everything I owned. And, trying to do it on a fixed SSDI income. Sometimes the world just isn't fucking fair.
The electric facilities in the USA are to old for VFD. Even the election computers are so old that they work in reverse 😎. VFD can be used in Europe in every home shop, I have running all my 3 fase machines on a seperate VFD, programming is no issue. The big advance of a VFD is the speed controle on every machine,I don't think a coverter can do that as well.
You don’t need to buy a rotor phase converter just make you own many video’s on RUclips on how to make them just like he is selling for pennies on the dollar D I Y
If you have knowledge of electronics and high amp circuits, sure you could build one. I sure wouldn't do it if you don't have that knowledge because doing something wrong can be costly at a minimum or even fatal if you hit something live. None of the plans or videos I've seen to auto balancing. Sure, for some equipment it doesn't matter so much, but it's still not ideal. Finally, I guarantee that you won't end up with anything nearly as efficient or compact.
I have a 20 horse power unit. The motor generator unit is very poorly balanced and the bearings where a bit nosier than they should have been for the first 2 years of use. They have finally quieted down. Also the "HP" ratings on the units are a complete load of BS. You are not getting true 3 phase. What the converters produce is sufficient for running electric motors that do not need to be able to start under load but that is all. Ridged tapping with a Bridgeport is not the same using a rotary phase converter as it is using a Bridgeport hooked to the 3 phase power grid. The difference is that unless you have a way over-sized phase converter you cant stop the motor on the mill and reverse it for ridged tapping. I have broken taps earlier on as I would switch the direction on the motor and the phase converter would bog down and then the motor would keep going in the same direction. This problem would occur when I was using a "5 HP" unit. I have since gotten a "20HP" ADX unit and it finally has the ability to allow power tapping though it is still a bit hit and miss with my gear head lathe that has a 5.5 KW motor aka apx 7HP. You would think something rated for 20 HP would have no trouble with a 7 HP load but no!!!. The ratings are based on running multiple small motors at the same time. The other way to ridged tap with my "5HP" unit was to turn on the 5 HP main spindle motor on my 12"x24" surface grinder and let it idle. The surface grinder would act as somthing of an electromagnetic flywheel and made it possible to ridged tap before I got the bigger phase converter. In summary the products are poorly made and dubiously rated!!! Buyer beware!!!
@@JoeInBendigo Not According to American rotary's web site. "American Rotary has partnered with Baldor Electric one of the world’s largest and most respected manufacturers to supply its custom-engineered idler/generators." Below is the web address for the part of American Rotary's website where I found the above quote. www.americanrotary.com/about/advantage/
@@jesperdahl1486 Below is the web address for the part of American Rotary's website where I found the above quote. www.americanrotary.com/about/advantage/
Good units, but just an infomercial with lipstick. I prefer your renovation content. I can hear you saying “don’t watch, then.” Okay. Looking forward to your upcoming non-sponsorship videos.
@@boots7859 Crikey; am I not entitled to my opinion? I support (via patreon) channels that interest me as hobbyist. I can (and have) withdrawn my support in the past. If I don't speak up, Keith (and others) may end up with fewer subscribers and supporters without knowing why. Commercial endorsements taint the information presented. Just saying.......
![[SFM] Risky Recital](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RzNkY1_Nk3o/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks to Keith Rucker, Steve Summers, and others I went with American Rotary a year or so ago. I couldn't be happier with my purchase. I actually just bought my third 3-phase machine for my shop the other day and my American Rotary phase converter will run them all. American Rotary's website was easy to navigate and their phone is answered in America and by someone who speaks English (very helpful). You wont regret your purchase from American Rotary.
I use both a rotary phase converter and a VFD in my shop. Both have their advantages. I disagree with his negative comments about VFD's. And being a Ham Radio Operator, I was especially offended with his blindsided un-educated comment about Ham Radio. I think the American Rotary Products sound like a great, well designed product, but I also learned early in life, not to bad mouth the competition or other things that I do not fully understand, as that usually, most always comes back to bite you.
Keep up the great work Keith, you cannot control the opinions of others!!
Totally agree !
Agreed ... underscored with my comments above.
I bought an American Rotary phase converter based on your advice. It is almost silent other than a little humming. It is beautifully made. I have my rpc on a mobile device.
Thank you Keith & Chris. Lots of good info-you guys didn’t miss a beat even with the noise. I need one to replace the set-up I have on my Bridgeport
Your interview underscores the flexibility 3 phase power gives you in your choice of machine. Whilst 3 phase power is uncommon in the domestic environment here in the UK, it makes me very happy that I have the luxury of 3 phase power in my home. My 3 phase machines are not only quieter, they use less power. Hats off to Nikola Tesla! Thanks for posting such interesting content, your channel just gets better and better.
Polyphase power in various forms was invented independently by no fewer than 5 people around the same time. Tesla was just one of them. People need to stop over-crediting Tesla for things he didn't actually invent.
@@SuperAWaC I stand corrected, thank you. I guess many things, like the incandescent light bulb which wasn't invented by Thomas Edison, but the Englishman Joseph Swan (later knighted by King Edward VII). Penicillin wasn't the sole discovery of Fleming, rather the messy desk of one of his research assistants, (my wife's grandfather) and Howard Florey (later Baron Florey). I guess the list of these self-publicists goes on.
@@christopherc7757 Like most things, the incandescent lamp is also one thing without a single inventor. Lots of independent inventions and work built on work. Edison was the one who cooked up the first commercially viable incandescent lamp.
Great video Keith. I picked up an American rotary 10hp converter a few years ago when I bought my lathe. Best decision I made for my shop. Since then I wired in a 3 phase panel with numerous circuits which made it easy to add numerous pieces of 3 phase equipment. It’s a quality piece of equipment that was a game changer in my shop.
I hesitated watching this. I figured it would be an advertisement.
I bought my 10hp ADX two years ago. One of the best tools I have!
Right, quiet, balanced power.
I had a electoral/mechanical business for 40 years that 90% of our business was industrial and would never think of building a converter in house. The time and money to build one out weighed getting one from a converter manufacture. VFDs replaced DC drives in applications where the speed of a motor needed to control a line or a mixer on a 30K gallon or larger tank. Very good basic interview.
Well, duh? And for the rest of us who would like to get into this as a hobby, with a supporting revenue stream expected never, can and do build ones for less than your average employee's weekly paycheck.
I built my own to get me by for a short time with the goal of buying an American Rotary for all the reasons you guys just talked about.
Thanks,
John
The only reason I built my own converter is cost. 20 hp motor was $10. Contactors and boxes $25, all auction pieces.
Assembly time was days, but it works and I have less than $200 invested. The biggest cost was wire and time.
I would love to get an AR converter but the cost is not in my budget.
Great show Keith, love the channel.
Thanks for sharing.
THANK YOU...for sharing. Something to think about.
Hello Merica. I know there is big problems with 3 phase in your country, but somehow it is 21st century. There is nice solid state 1ph to 3 phase converters with variable frequency.
You don't need one big converter, just several small ones for each motor. They are quite cheap and universal. And not noisy in all ways (who is listening AM radio?).
And it adds variable speed, brake and current protection. Also soft start- no more stress for gearbox.
Hello Uropean or whomever, no, there really isn't any problem with 3-Phase in the USA. We did after all, invent it.
99% of our population doesn't need it, so the extra expense of installing it everywhere would be wasted.
We're quite aware that its the 21st Century, we went to the Moon last Century.
For the less than 1% of Americans who need 3-Phase power at home, the options are RPC, or VFDs.
We know about VFD's, an American invented it.
Please save your snarky comment until you lot get to the Moon or invent something...
I have multiple 240v and 480v machines run off my one American Rotary phase converter and can run multiple units all at the same time. Motors from 40hp to 1/3hp all run just like they were designed. :-) Much more affordable than the $100,000 to get 3 phase run to my shop.
Thank you Keith for doing this video. I'm in the process of getting my new workshop built...... hopefully break ground in the spring. I'll be running several bigger machines.... the Kearney and Trecker 3k that you and Ron helped me with, as well as my big monarch 60 series. American Rotary has always been my only choice for powering my machines. I like their quality as well as being an american product. This was a very helpful video and puts a face to a quality product.
Please do a similar discussion with the engineering department ... would be probably be less story telling and more precise ... really, the burning down the house story ... I think the uhaul guy told me the same story.
Switched from a name brand rotary converter( not American rotary) to phase perfect which is solid state and requires no programming many years ago. Advantages: always on - only 2% efficiency loss - better characteristics than the public utilities 3 phase - full hp from all motors - very very quiet when cooling fans occasionally run - can power many machines at once with no regard to motor size on which should be turned on first. Would never go back to a rotary converter. Check them out and see if they might be a better choice for you. Not sponsored by anyone.
I built my own. 3 phase motor and a capacitor that is wired to the third winding and either of the 2 other windings.My 3HP motor dont need a switch but on larger motors I use a push button to connect the capacitor, only while starting the converter motor.
Hams now days do not put out harmonics and do not interfere with tv like he claimed
Although we are technically allowed to, it's not good practice.
Plus TV is all digital.. So nothing I can do on any amateur bands that will effect anything about broadcast TV..
As for VDSL, well.. That goes right through HF, so everyone hates everyone there. :)
@@ElectraFlarefire there are a lot of very empty bands these days with the digitization of radio and a sharply shrinking ham population. i live in a big city and could probably run a spark gap transmitter without anyone noticing except the ten people listening to AM talk radio
You can buy VFD inverters for any size machine which convert your single phase to 3 phase for motors. They also have the functions of variable speed, dynamic braking and can be controlled by PC input for specific cycling, stop-start-reverse etc. Each machine can have its own dedicated inverter sized specifically for the particular motor and requires no wiring of conduits etc., just plug in to existing single phase outlets. Inverters are available in 110 volt input for small machines and 220 for the larger units. Pricing is from 75.00 for a 1/4 HP motor to 175.00 for a 5HP motor.
Great info, I'm getting my shop in eastern Kentucky ready to start up I need something to run at least five to eight motors, thanks Keith.
I went from a rotary phase converter over to VFDs in part because I got a mill to go with my lathe, and I wanted variable speed on both machines. Eliminating the background noise from the idler motor was a nice benefit. Also, my power company has been talking about adding demand charges to their residential rates when they go to Time of Use pricing, and VFDs have less "ringing" when the motor starts.
I can also use the same extension cord to hook up the mill or the stick welder, and copper costs real money. I'm working in or in front of my garage, and fixed wiring isn't practical.
American Made doesn't address the technical differences between RFC and VFD, nor the less tangible benefits tradeoffs. RFCs are a more mature technology, while VFDs are a more recent development, with about 40 years of practical use now.
RFCs are a good lower cost alternative for motors which need to run at a constant speed with a predictable load and for a long period of time. Rotating inertia is a fact of life.
VFDs are often used instead of a "soft" starter - this is a benefit if your power utility is unhappy about back EMF and/or has demand charges - something that is starting to show up in residential rates in North America. A VFD gives a noticeably cleaner voltage curve on start for a given motor with a generally lower current spike.
There are pros and cons to either solution - what's best for me might not suit you.
His comments about VFDs are not fair: he was talking about cheap Chinese VFDs and compared them with quality equipment. Compare a Siemens VFD installed with the line-side suppression you are required to, then all his arguments against them are gone, warranty and support included. AND you have the advantages. A lot of equipment in 3-phase countries is run on 3-phase VFDs for those functions: variable speed, variable run-up and run-down, braking, remote reporting and control, fault protection etc etc....
They "just happen" to also be able to be fed by single phase and even DC.
Lifts and lift doors pretty well everywhere in the world are running on VFDs, so I don't think reliability is even in question....
VFD's have their place. When it comes to variable speed and the need to program certain functions into a motor, they are invaluable. But, if your goal is simply to create three phase power, they are not always the best option - particularly when you need to run multiple machines. A Rotary Phase Converter will end up being a more reliable and cheaper option in the long run if your are running more than one machine. As for VFD's - I have and use two in my shop, however, I am feeding both of them three phase power off of my phase converter so that I don't have to size them up by 50% to get full power out of them. For most home shop people who will have the need to run more than one machine, I strongly feel that a rotary phase converter is a better long term option. If you do need a VFD for motor control, I suggest that you buy a quality unit like you suggest and stay away from the cheap imports - which is what most home shop people gravitate towards. Oh, and while we did not mention it in the video, if you have a need for a VFD, you can contact American Rotary as they also sell these and provide support for the units that they sell.
@@VintageMachinery I completely agree with you in principle.
Just a simple question and comment:
Do you know where the myth of having to downgrade single phase run VFDs came from? I have no idea nor can I figure out any logic in it... They are designed for a specific output and don't care in the slightest where the power at the input comes from. You just need thinner wires if you bring the power in on 3 wires instead of 2....
I have approximately 11 VFDs in my home workshop - including 3 on my cylindrical grinder alone. There it allows me to correct the surface speed of the wheel, the rotation of my work and the flow of the coolant, all by changing motor speed on the fly.
They range in age from around 35 years old to a brand new one. NONE have ever been down-rated and most have been run at maximum load for hours. Occasionally I overload my mill and lathe motors and they reduce their output back to their rating after some seconds - or switch off if I don't back off quickly. None have failed for that reason.
I have had failures due to dried up capacitors one once due to an underrated rectifier in a Chinese one. Both were repaired.
I try to get used Siemens ones when I can. None of those have ever let me down.
I can't find any reason to ever want an expensive and bulky rotary converter that uses significantly more power.....
Interesting to hear both sides of the argument though.
@@JoeInBendigo It is NOT a myth. you do NOT have to upsize a VFD, IF it is made for single phase supply, but most VFD`s are made for three phase supply, and THEY NEED to be upsized, otherwise you WILL burn up the rectifier (as you are only using 2/3`s of it)
@@JoeInBendigo you can run VFD from DC. :)
@@VintageMachinery I think you have 2phase (240V) outlet. Just feed it to regular 3phase VFD leaving one phase unconnected and it will run. Diodes will be 1/3 more loaded and sure it can handle.
I am using very old 110V@3phase VFD (60Hz) in european 230@50Hz 1phase grid for my lathe. Just connected it L and N to L1 and L2. And it run several years. And I get it for free as it was 110@60Hz unit in europe.
P.S. do not forget that there is option to rewire motor from star to triangle to reduce phase voltage.
Keep up the good work Keith.
3 Phase power rules and so does DC power. Electric motors that are 3 phase have their own silent constant quality sound to them. DC motors are extremely quiet since the sine wave is flat vs up/down like AC. 3 Phase motors deliver very good continuous power efficiently too. Thanks for the reminder Keith.
Excellent and informative interview. Thanks Keith!
Hello from Finland. Here we have all 3x400v tree phase system every house and shop. 240v is in one phase system. I have 3x25A fuses in my house and my shop. Here cost energy about 11 cent/(eurocent) /kwh. How much is it in America? All the Best for You and Your Family from Asko, Pimudog and Mickeycat.
That's interesting . i live in Rarotonga Cook islands , we pay 63c NZ KWH , but this year we had a Covert , cover for three months free power .that was nice of the government .to help us out
It varies from a little less than that to quite a bit more.
I live in Ohio. I pay about 10 US cents/Kwh. I think most of US is around that amount. Unless you are in California, then God help you.
Our "super-saver" plan is 5 US cents/Kwh plus an on-peak demand charge between 3:00 and 8:00 week days. We run our side hustle shop off-peak. Not bad. If we ever go full-time legit there is some rethinking to do.
In New Zealand 415 V 3 phase is available outside every residence.You just have to pay to get connected to it as houses generally have a single phase 240 V supply.
It is also common for adjacent houses to be connected to different phases. Which is why there have been accidents caused by homeowners trying to run high current equipment by interconnecting power cables from 2 houses.
Often times, the original innovator of something ends up with significant amount of older, original generation equipment in-place. Especially so for infrastructure/standards.
2nd/3rd/x Gen environments do run 3-phase out to the neighbor hoods, and in some places directly to residence (Germany/NZ), and single phases split along housing.
Ultimately, unless your machining in your garage, switching over to 3-phase in the US would simply be a waste of time and resources.
Even more so now, that more and more things are power-efficient and need less power.
Single-phase 240v in the US gives more power than most people could ever use. Running 3-Phase all over is a waste of copper especially inside a residence where 90% of outlets will never use more than 1500-1800 watts. We pull our expensive 240 to the 1-2 location needed only, which saves $$ over-all.
@@boots7859 It can be argued that a 115v supply is a waste of copper. Lower voltage requires more current - conductors need to be heavier.
I have a Lenze VFD, same as Stan Zinkowskis
on my Mill. It has a step pulley head and runs
super quiet. I love being able to adjust the
speed on the fly with it. I’ve had it for about
4-5 years I guess and haven’t had any problems
with it yet.
I don’t agree with what he was saying with
what do you get with cheap.
I have been considering an American rotary
phase converter though since I do have other
equipment that is 3 phase that I’m fixing to try
and get going.
I key up a kilowatt all the time on HF. The wife, the neighbors, know one knows. Why? Because my rig is clean and I keep it that way. Flourescent light ballasts, treadmill motors and touch switches are dirtier. In short, it was a very ill informed comment. BTW the VFD that I use to power my grinder is clean too.
Your rig is clean but I'm sure you realize that not everyone runs a tidy shack.
@@Blazer02LS That doesn't give the original comment credence. Phase converters are what they are.
Yes VFD's have their place, and to be honest that is how I run my shop. I do run name brand (Hitachi), which are a little more expensive, but here is where the problem comes in. Even though I have more control on my series1 J head Bridgeport, the "whining" is atrocious! You also need a VFD for every machine. Not a bad thought when you just have a 1HP motor, the VFD runs about $200. When you start powering larger motors is where it gets expensive. Any motor above 5 HP and you have to double the VFD. My 7.5 HP Monarch lathe needed a 15 HP VFD. The VFD was more than 1/2 of what I paid for the Monarch...not to mention what it would have cost me to hire someone to install and program it if I did not do it myself. By the time you buy VFD's for 3 machines, you could have had a phase converter.
Hi, would a 5HP rotery Three Phase Converter be big enough for a 4.4 KVA EDM machine ? Thank you for any help.!! 0:06
I sure like the unit I bought from them a couple years ago. Do they still charge extra for the UL decal/sticker?
Any manufacturer I've dealt with has charged for it, unless that is the only way they sell their equipment, ie. industry requirement. Which is rolled into the price. Aint nothin' free, as the adage goes.
Best wishes
I have one the only problem I had was received it to fast .and don't know how the delivery guy got it to my door. I left one of my testicle on my front door lol had to get a hand truck great unit !!!
VFDs work pretty well up to 5 HP if you are looking to manufacture 3-ph and also get the benefits of the custom programming (variable speed, capacitive braking, interrupts, etc.). Doing all that stuff generally means re-engineering the electrical controls for your machine but I've seen some great implementations (not cheap, but great). Much bigger than 5 hp and you need to run a VFD off 3-ph power anyway. Horses for courses. Just picked up my ADX-20 to run a 7.5 hp lathe. Two speed motor (which will drive a VFD nuts). RPC was a much better solution for me. And I have my eye on a Harig 3-ph surface grinder. Very little extra effort to run another 3-ph circuit.
A few weeks ago we had a bad rain storm and it took out all the electricity in the entire small suburb city where I live. Berkeley Lake, GA.
After a few days, we watched them fix a horrible maze of a mess; with lines on the ground everywhere. Since I taught electronics for 45 years; I made friends with the supervisor and he told me something that I still don't understand. IE:
They brought in 2 phase service when the city was built; but it only goes a short line in the city. He said they use those 2 phases to create 3 phase service; for a large pump machinery; required by the core of engineers.
As best I can tell, they took those 2 phases and then hooked up a large transformer to both of the phases. This then provides 3 phase service. But I still don't understand it. He used a technical term but I forgot it.
If someone knows how that is done, I would appreciate your explaining it to me.
See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott-T_transformer
and: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/392789/how-to-convert-2-phase-power-supply-to-3-phase-power-supply-using-a-transformer
@@markpeterson5479 Thank you VERY much Mark Peterson. Now I understand it. I can't thank you enough.
For I will stay up all night when I can't "Get it"; If you get what I mean.
I'm pretty sure color wouldn't enter into my choice of one of these. I have the knowledge to build one that would work, but I also know it would be larger, more prone to issues and if there were issues, it would be me that would have to sort them out. Just not worth the hassle.
I know people that screamed to me "You can just use VFD's, they are cheap, and Phase converters are expensive"...well, lets see...A Lathe, Mill, Baldor Buffer, big pedestal grinder, yea...now I need how many VFDs??? They REFUSE to get off the VFD kick, and I think they've spent at least 3 times what they would have by now if they had just gotten a phase converter. Oh well.
If I get my shop...I'll be going with a Rotary Phase Converter.
I have a 5hp compressor where my electrician wired a box to have a “wild leg”, I’m not sure what that means but it it has worked perfectly for 20yr’s.
In our factory we have 480 wild leg, the difference is the power to ground on that leg. Leg A 270V to ground, Leg B 420V to ground, Leg C 270V to ground. Any leg to leg voltage is 480V, the Wild B leg can't be used to power any lower voltage single phase equipment.
Hi Anna, I would expect slightly different voltages on your 480V wild-leg (aka, high-leg) delta. From your description, A-C has a grounded center tap. Thus, the voltage from A to ground and from C to ground should 480/2 = 240. The high-leg is from B to ground and should be 480 x sqrt(3) / 2 = 416V, close enough to your 420V. I don't get your 270 V from both A and C to ground. What am I missing? Or, are you just calling out your actual voltages. I'm used to seeing these being called out as the theoretical voltages (as computed above) rather than the actual measured voltage.
Be well & Best regards,
Gottfried
@@gottfriedschuss5999 I was calling out the actual measured voltage from memory, my memory may be wrong on the 270. But being that it's such high voltage and none of the panels are easily opened I'll just take your word for it that is should be 240. I know the 420 to ground on be is accurate (actual voltage) because I made the label for our electrician to put on the box as a warning.
Hi 218philip, Here is a brief explanation of high-leg delta connections in the USA; for more information, search the www for 3-phase power, e.g., Electrician U. First, a wild-leg is also referred to as a "high-leg". These refer to how the secondaries of the utility's power transformers (pole transformers / pole pigs, or pad mounted transformer) are connected. In your case, the three secondaries are connected in a "delta" (triangle) configuration. The secondary from the first transformer is connected from A to C, the second from C to B and the third from B to A. In addition, the A to C transformer has a center tap that is grounded. The voltage from A to B, B to C, and C to A, the phase voltages, are all three 240V. It's 120V from A to ground and from C to ground. However, the voltage from B to ground is 240 x sqrt(3) / 2 = 208V. This is far too high to connect normal 120V appliances, they would fry "let the smoke out" if one did so. This is the wild-leg or high-leg. As a precaution, most Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJs, aka inspectors) require the high-leg to be colored orange, either the insulation or by taping the wire with orange tape. A way to think of this is "orange equals caution/danger". It's fine to connect a 3-phase load to phase-A, phase-B, and phase-C; that's how you get 3-phase power. It's also fine to connect 120V appliances between phase-A and ground/neutral (hand waving took place here) and between phase-B and neutral. However, for almost all cases, never connect any single phase load between phase-B and neutral. It's too high for a 120 volt appliance and too low for a 240V appliance. I hope this helps.
Be well & Best regards,
Gottfried
Gottfried Schuss I am going to take the time to think very hard about how you explained my lack of understanding wild leg 3ph power but it might take a bit more time for me.
Nice info - is the color all that important? You're a tad off regarding Ham operators today....
Thanks for sharing!
The US does not have 3 phase power in common wiring because of legacy issues and we were the first to have electrical power. .
I think it depends on how you define 'first to have'. I say this because I'm in the UK within walking distance of Godalming, Surrey, the first town in the world to have a public electricity supply, primarily used for street lighting, in 1881. This was a year before Edisons Pearl Street Station went live.
The first Electric Power Generation Station was operational in 1879 at at Cragside, Northumberland, in England, the home of Lord Armstrong, the industrialist. It supplied only his mansion. Both stations used German Siemens generators producing AC current and Swan, rather than Edison, Incandescant Bulbs.
However, if you use various other definitions then Paris was 'first' in 1878 with arc lighting of a street of the Exposition of that year, or San Fransisco in 1879 with the first commercial sale of electricity, or Grand Rapids with the first commercial generator station in 1880.
1878 to 1882 saw a massive whirlwind of electrical 'firsts' with the 'winner' largely depending on how you define the finishing line. Saying the US was 'first' makes little sense, especially as most of the prior technical and scientific breakthroughs had been in Europe, but neither does saying Britain was first, or France was, or Germany was...
However I do have a great affection for the idea that a small, otherwise anonymous, sleepy rural town in Southern England in some small way beat the rest of the world in something, however narrowly we have to define the 'rules'.
Keith Fenner needs one of those, his equipment is really loud. Thanks.
Keith needs to put the slave motor in another room.
Made in the good ol US of A doesn't really sell it, brush up on your technical stuff and lead in with that, as to why its is better then this and that and the other.
Well, you could just be wanting to keep your money in your own economy, and not send it overseas. Or you may want quality, US made XYZ in GENERALLY top notch stuff. But of course you also need stuff from around the world, European cheese, South American beef, New Zealand lamb, wine/alcohol from the four corners of the world, spices from the far East. So YOU decide what to buy, from where.
@@jesperdahl1486 Of course, but I said to lead in with the technical stuff. Saying we got the flag printed on the side is no help. I'm sure you agree that Everything we make is not top notch.
@@iTeerRex Not all US made stuff is going to take you to the moon and back, BUT compared to low end Chinese made "stuff" US made anything, is remarkable well made, and it should be, it is much more expensive to manufacture things in the US.
And by the way my comment was constructive criticism to help, not to insult.
And for a lot of the viewership 'made in america' and 'made in china' is the same thing as they are both imports. :)
I'll stick with my VFDs.
For the people in Europe who have 3-phase power to their house, what are they running that requires that sort of power, coffee maker, stove? Are 3-phase appliances common in Europe?
With 3-phase we have 3x 230V power. So we use 230V for ligthing and normal sokets up to 10A = 2300 watt.
The tumble dryer need one circuit breaker and the wasching mashine a extra cirucuit breaker. In the Kitchen we often have one circuit breaker for the dishwasher and one or two current breaker for the other sockets and ligth. But this are all one phase 230V devices, it is more of approximately same current on all 3 phase.
For an stove we use 3-phase 380-400V up to 16A usaly fixed wired.
Medium and big motors are allways 3-phase, a hand drilling machine is only 230V.
For boling hot water we have small devices with 230V 10A and on the wall big one with 400V 3-phase up to 33000 watt.
I've never known a house in the UK to have a 3 phase supply...it can cost a fortune, for businesses to get it connected..
@@jensschroder8214 I have always thought when the electrical grid was first being constructed in Europe, they wanted to promote industrialization by running 3-phase power everywhere, that it was a way to allow the beginnings of cottage industry. I have a feeling that a lot of government subsidies were involved to bring this about.
Yes, three phase appliances are not only common, they are the norm. A three phase range/stove is fed from a 3P 16A (400v) circuit, with a cable the size of your little finger, and not by a cable the size of a child's arm. Three phase is not (just) meant to run things that require enormous amounts of power, it really shines when you run motors, requiring NO capacitors or rotating start switches, just a contactor (and some over current protection) and you are up and running.
@@bigtrev8xl This comment is funny, as many (most ?) British people claim that the UK is NOT part of Europe.
Just a suggestion..but I would not dismiss the value of VFDs for the home gamers. I am not an expert on any of this but based on my experience if my only option was a RPC I would still be waiting for 'some day'. The cost differential is almost 10 to 1 and for the shop with one or two 3 phase machines it is definitely the way to go. I must point out Chris is quite correct to say you get what you pay for...dont go with the cheap one...do your homework, and yes there is a learning curve. By going with a VFD you get to save that money for the day when you may need a RPC. RPCs are sized and if you go with the entry level model, chances are you will need to upgrade it to handle the capacity as you expand....the VFD gives you the freedom to enter the game at minimal cost. THEN you call up Chris and retire the VFDs (as I hope I will some day). There are lots of use cases out there and I am sure many would benefit more from the RPC investment, but if your plans for 3 phase power are not certain, you have nothing to loose by doing your homework, buying ~150 buck VFD, and taking some time to set it up. That said, if you have never worked with 220, or even rewired a lamp....call Chris at American Rotary....220 will kill you.
Thanks for the info - based on what I had been reading I had been thinking that a VFD was the only viable option, surprised that American Made can be so reasonably priced. Go Pack!
I always thought that a VFD was to give variable speed of a 3 phase motor. My wood turning lathe has one. The Rotary Phase converter does not give variable speed so I don't see why they are being compared am I missing something?
The more usual use of a VFD is for speed control, but you can also use one to generate three phase power from single phase. It's not super clean and I wouldn't use one for that on a CNC machine, but it does work. As was mentioned, if you get decent ones and the filters for them, by the time you set them up for 2 or 3 machines, you could have gotten the rotary phase converter. In most setups, you treat the output of the phase converter just as if it was thee phase from the pole with a proper panel and wiring to the machines.
Had a better opinion of American Rotary before I saw this guy. Seemed sort of vague on specific info. Did not open a box. Did not explain the dif between VFD and Rotary and how they work. Also knows little to nothing about Amateur Radio, electric companies, and harmonics. HINT: amateur radio operators today use factory built radios which must meet FCC emissions standards, which means no spurious signals up the power input to the electric company. Glad you got a sponsor Keith. Maybe next time get one of the engineers to explain the products. I'm sure American makes a good product, and it deserves to be explained a little better. my 2c IMHO
Nice job. Lots of good info
Tlhree minutes at the minute telling latecomers to your channel what's in one of these and how they work would have been nice. Felt like I came in in the middle.
On the "why not build one" topic, I've made the studies that allow me to build one safely and reliably but I still wouldn't build one. The thing is that for one it takes time to research and source the components, assemble it and when you factor all of that time buying one becomes just more profitable. And, let's be honest, it's not because you can do something that you should do it.
Considering you can build one for about $150 worth of parts(Few caps(Fairly big caps:), relays and a timer) using an old motor that you can get often for free(Or scrap prices) and a phase converter is often many thousands up.. I'm sticking to building one..
Plus I'd know know how it works in detail, what all the parts are and how to fix it, so if/when things go wrong, it's a simple repair.
I do agree however that unless your quite comfortable working with 240 single and 415v 3 phase, I'd not suggest anyone build one. Mains is dangerous.
Given the amount of technical data on your channel, surprised you would do an infomercial
American Rotary sponsors him. He likely wouldn't be able to produce the volume and quantity of content he does without them.
I'm good with this, while there is absolutely an ad-focus, there was good tech info in there too that I hadn't considered and found helpful.
How long do you think he'd be able to do these video's without at least some support? And I mean more support than the 'Hey, great video, keep 'em coming' freeloading, like you and me?
I much prefer one of these once in a while, vs so many of the others (good ones even) who seem to be shilling something or other in every other video.
I still surprised that while none of us like advertising, so many people still feel as if some sacred vow has been broken when a YT'er who's put incredible amounts of time into their content and channel has the sheer audacity to get a little return on their investment...
Actually I'm not really surprised.
None of the people who complain ever seem have offered up their time and sweat equity for free to others, just freeload.
@@boots7859 Guess I'll reply, against my better judgement: My issue was simply with the signal to noise ratio of the sales guy from American Rotary (and judging from other comments, I'm not alone) ... no knock to Keith, who I respect greatly. Also, had you done your research, you would have seen that I do, in fact, have an uncommercialized channel of my own where I do give back to the community from my 35+ years of engineering experience. So, speak for yourself when you talk of freeloading. Anyway, apologies to Keith for taking up time on his channel with this conversation. No offense intended.
A•B had a series available a few years before they were sorted. A 10 HPish was under 10 grand. Good thing good ideas can wait for things to change.
Had a 400HP soft start SCR'd Drive technology. The Snap Crackle Ramps were exciting. All's well that ends well.
I was thinking of getting one of these, but after this video now I KNOW I'm getting one. What an awesome product and what great folks, too.
I grew up in Milwaukee with a family named Feavel a block away. It's not that common of a name. I lost track of them nearly forty years ago, but Chris kinda reminds me of Jimmy -- I wonder...
Great video guys 👍🏻👍🏻
So I was in the Military and we used motor Generators (400 phase) yes it was for a specialized purpose... but what is the difference between and MG and a phase converter??
Nothing other than that the phase converter has a single phase motor turning a 3 phase generator.
@@paulg3336 Nope that is not how a phase converter works. a rotary Phase converter has a 3 phase motor used as an idler to generate the 3rd leg for 3phase and some capacitors and inductors to correct the phase shift and voltage difference to mimick balanced 3 phase power.
While I do not use rotary phase converters, I have used variable frequency drives from fractional hp to multi hundreds of hp. Have been doing so since the early 1980s for a company who is a member of the DOW 30. Did so until retirement 7 years ago.
I take issues with many of his sales points.
His credibility dropped to absolute zero with the derogatory statement regarding ham radio operators !
I lost interest in the video and went straight to the comments when the salesman started in on "American Made" when the subject of VFDs was raised.
I've been an engineer in heavy industries for 35 years now, and we were using the then newfangled VFDs in cement plants and steelmills back in 1985.
How efficient are these things actually? Transforming always costs a little bit extra of course, but how much is it in practice compared to regular 3 phase?
I have 2 of their units in my shop.
Interesting Keith...
Red = fire equipment. Should have chosen a different color.
It's electrical, fire is definitely a possibility. Especially if they open it and start trying to figure why it quit. P.S. lots of tool boxes are red.
That was great. Does the AMP have receptacles for each breaker?
Yes, your choice of 1 to 3 receptacles, each with its own breaker.
As German electrician and electrical engineer, I can't understand why there is no 3 phase power. But I can say, a phase converter is the better solution than a VFD.
Why not a VFD. VFD has more options, safety systems and speed control vs just direct 3~ power
The three phase IS there, it is just not sold to home owners, and the entire system is set up to use single/split phase, so they only need three phase when they buy a piece of industrial equipment.
@@jesperdahl1486 I know that there is 3 phase power. I can't find any good reason why they don't us it in normal homes.
@@jecceworks A VFD is very good for a single motor. You need to configure it for that specific drive. I was talking of 3 Phase for the shop. Not every motor can handle a VFD. The old machines in a home shop are not designed for it. A VFD produces a lot of harmonics. You need big filters to get rid of them.
@@davidstr4946 Trust me, if there is three wires on the pole, there IS three phase power, and it is on every residential (99+%) streets in the US, I have never seen it with my own eyes, but supposedly at the far end of rural runs of power, they run only two wires, so three phase is no longer an option. A regular house does NOT need three phase, it just makes things easier/cheaper (thinner cables) you only NEED three phase power for (obviously) three phase motors.
In my Home here in Germany we have 100 Amp 3 Phase 400V coming in. Most normal Home's get around 60 Amp 3 Phase. No market for Phase Converters here. ;-)
Hiya Keith
I need more machines.... gotta find some auctions
USA USA!!!
Do they export outside the USA?
Keith's is fine but what's up with the audio on the guy.
I heard everything he said.
Can you run a monarch double e live of a phase converthank you
lol there is 3-phase at a hog farm a mile down the road from me, quote was still like $30,000 to get it ran
We got a quote to run 3-ph from a storage facility 1/4 mile down the road. $65K. Pulling 1-ph off the tower that butts up to our property line we can easily access 400 amps, 800 with permitting, and add an RPC. Will get 3-ph power that is cleaner for galactically less.
@@imkindofabigdeal4308 I went with a phaseperfect digital converter for my CNC equipment, they are very pricey but so far well worth it. The thing is they can automatically balance the load, so the generated phase's voltage isn't too far away from the other two legs. So basically you can hook up a bunch of machines to a single power strip and have them all run with balanced voltages!
@@multiHappyHacker Phase Perfect makes a great system from what I hear. Wish 3 phase was a standard thing here but glad there are cost effective solutions.
Good presentation and discussion.
american rotary sells good products, they shouldn't need to be making appeals to emotion in their sales pitches.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
VFD´s are Motor drivers! Thy have to be tuned to the Motor they are driving!
You cant just plug them in eny maschine like you want´t. Only if you have the same Motor or at leest close on every maschine!
I read about VDS´s, especialy in the US, that kill Motors and wear out contactors very quickly. And in the discusions i realised that americans are typicly not aware of how VFS´s work, and in general have not the best knowledge of electronics!
they all din´t know that the VFD needs to know the parameters of the motor to work correctly, and wat happens if you give a f... and just plug the damm thing in is...
It runs.. mor or less fine.. but the back emf´s and harmonics create allot of reactive current and high voltage noise that kills everyting in it´s proximity.
And also they had effects that unsymetrical induced voltage createt a curent on the Rotors that sparked over the bearings to ground.
Her in Germany you quickly get a call from your power caompany if you do that!!!
Exactly, they can be very involved to get them tuned for a specific load profile.
Seeing things like this just causes my heart to ache. I'm trying my damnedest to just get another wood shop going after an injury that forced me to just walk away from everything I owned. And, trying to do it on a fixed SSDI income. Sometimes the world just isn't fucking fair.
The electric facilities in the USA are to old for VFD. Even the election computers are so old that they work in reverse 😎. VFD can be used in Europe in every home shop, I have running all my 3 fase machines on a seperate VFD, programming is no issue. The big advance of a VFD is the speed controle on every machine,I don't think a coverter can do that as well.
Welcome to Wisconsin Keith the birthplace of the machine tool! 😊
You don’t need to buy a rotor phase converter just make you own many video’s on RUclips on how to make them just like he is selling for pennies on the dollar D I Y
If you have knowledge of electronics and high amp circuits, sure you could build one. I sure wouldn't do it if you don't have that knowledge because doing something wrong can be costly at a minimum or even fatal if you hit something live. None of the plans or videos I've seen to auto balancing. Sure, for some equipment it doesn't matter so much, but it's still not ideal. Finally, I guarantee that you won't end up with anything nearly as efficient or compact.
I have a 20 horse power unit. The motor generator unit is very poorly balanced and the bearings where a bit nosier than they should have been for the first 2 years of use. They have finally quieted down.
Also the "HP" ratings on the units are a complete load of BS.
You are not getting true 3 phase.
What the converters produce is sufficient for running electric motors that do not need to be able to start under load but that is all.
Ridged tapping with a Bridgeport is not the same using a rotary phase converter as it is using a Bridgeport hooked to the 3 phase power grid.
The difference is that unless you have a way over-sized phase converter you cant stop the motor on the mill and reverse it for ridged tapping. I have broken taps earlier on as I would switch the direction on the motor and the phase converter would bog down and then the motor would keep going in the same direction. This problem would occur when I was using a "5 HP" unit. I have since gotten a "20HP" ADX unit and it finally has the ability to allow power tapping though it is still a bit hit and miss with my gear head lathe that has a 5.5 KW motor aka apx 7HP.
You would think something rated for 20 HP would have no trouble with a 7 HP load but no!!!. The ratings are based on running multiple small motors at the same time.
The other way to ridged tap with my "5HP" unit was to turn on the 5 HP main spindle motor on my 12"x24" surface grinder and let it idle. The surface grinder would act as somthing of an electromagnetic flywheel and made it possible to ridged tap before I got the bigger phase converter.
In summary the products are poorly made and dubiously rated!!!
Buyer beware!!!
Tim. Your rotary converter clearly does NOT have a motor-generator in it, but an idler motor! You are reporting on a completely different animal.
@@JoeInBendigo Not According to American rotary's web site.
"American Rotary has partnered with Baldor Electric one of the world’s largest and most respected manufacturers to supply its custom-engineered idler/generators."
Below is the web address for the part of American Rotary's website where I found the above quote.
www.americanrotary.com/about/advantage/
@@timeckelmann1196 "Custom-engineered idler/generators" YOU wrote it yourself, it is NOT just a idler motor.
@@jesperdahl1486 Below is the web address for the part of American Rotary's website where I found the above quote.
www.americanrotary.com/about/advantage/
Good units, but just an infomercial with lipstick. I prefer your renovation content. I can hear you saying “don’t watch, then.” Okay. Looking forward to your upcoming non-sponsorship videos.
Don't like these infomercials. I subscribed to learn about machining; this video is nothing like it.
Are you demanding your money back?
Are you willing to pay to see Keith's videos in place of rare advertising?
If not, shut up.
@@boots7859 Crikey; am I not entitled to my opinion? I support (via patreon) channels that interest me as hobbyist. I can (and have) withdrawn my support in the past. If I don't speak up, Keith (and others) may end up with fewer subscribers and supporters without knowing why. Commercial endorsements taint the information presented.
Just saying.......