I think that he probably knows the source is illegal, but I’m not sure he knew it was grave robbing. I say this because he expressed that he was malcontent with getting the same type of goods from Agaramir such as clothes. If he knew that it was grave robbing then he would’ve understood why he was only getting the same kind of stuff. People tend to be buried with similar items.
This was my thought too. My guess is that Thoronir suspected it was likely stolen, or maybe even that Agamir had some kind of mafia-esque scheme going with a person who transports goods (think Goodfellas with the trucks from the airport). By not asking exactly how Agamir got his wares, Thoronir was insulating himself if things went wrong. That being said, I doubt he would have done business at all with Agamir had he thought he was doing something like grave robbery or murder
This is the first side quest I remember doing in Oblivion. When the game first released it was also a good introduction to the then-new Radiant AI system that had NPCs moving around and following schedules, and I remember being *excited* for what was essentially a tailing mission as I stalked him through the district wondering what I would find. Morrowind had the Farhoth's hiding place quest which involved watching where Fargoth hid his gold from the lighthouse, but it required scripting each stage making it the exception, while Oblivion making having NPCs moving around and traveling between cells allowed scripted quest bits to fit more naturally into the existing NPC behavior so such quests taking advantage of such things became more common and immersive. NPCs already went about their business, and the game gave me a reason to follow one and a mystery to solve. I still prefer Morrowind but this quest was definitely Oblivion putting a good foot forward and making a compelling case for Radiant AI being a great improvement
Ive watched nearly every RUclips video covering this quest and youre the first to suggest thoronir is in on it. And it all makes too much sense. Bravo!
Thank you for the support! I’ve always thought that he was at the very least turning a blind eye to what was actually going on, and even though there’s no actual confirmation, Bethesda is really smart and cunning when it comes to they’re background stories and extra info!
@@ABardsBallad It's the daedric helmet in particular that gets peoples' goat. Most methods of finding one you'll see online involve save scumming outside some dungeon or other. I've known about this little trick since back in the day and have since purposefully tried to find one through random luck and come up empty after hours of playing.
It always bothered me that daedric prince quests were city side quests in Skyrim. In Oblivion, city quests and daedric quests were separate. 2 of the city quests in Markarth are deadra prince quests. It just feels like poor writing.
@anauthenticapple3974 It might be somewhat sacreligious to say this, but Skyrim's named quests are actually pretty good. Most of them, at least. Laid to Rest, the Man Who Cried Wolf, and most of the Thieves Guild quests are pretty good, too. The questlines for the Companions and the College are also really good; problem is, they're abysmally short (Seriously, six quests in and you're the fucking Arch-mage? Really?). Not to mention pretty much any quest you do on behalf of the Dark Brotherhood is virtually guaranteed to be at least decent (Then again, the Dark Brotherhood questline is typically a highlight in any Elder Scrolls game). I understand what Bethesda was going for with the various Daedric quests, as they're just strewn about and all. It's the idea that the Daedric Princes are an ever-present threat, and they could strike at any given moment. But it potentially screws over the player, when they inadvertently stumble across a Daedric Quest, and are now stuck with a rare item. The item is a one-of-a-kind, meaning simply dropping or selling it is something many players (myself included) don't want to do. Problem is, many of these weapons can be _heavy as hell_ (looking at you, Volendrung), thus clogging up the player's inventory; this is particularly annoying if they player doesn't have access to a house yet. Wabbajack is a particularly bad offender here, as once the player properly starts "the Mind of Madness", the only way out is to either complete the quest, or reload their save file. The various "Miscellaneous" quests, though? They basically boil down to either "reclaim/steal something", or "glorified delivery driver". To me, it feels like Bethesda wanted to give Skyrim a shit-ton more quests, only to give up halfway through. Part of that can be chalked up to time constraints; most notably, in the Civil War. The Civil War was originally intended to be much more expansive, with battles potentially being fought in _every_ hold capital (as opposed to just Whiterun and Solitude/Windhelm), the possibility of actually losing a battle, etc. But due to most likely time constraints, Bethesda resorted to making the Civil War a series of skirmishes in random forts, until you reach the enemy's capital. If you like, the mod "Open Civil War" gives you a pretty good indication of Bethesda's original vision for the Civil War.
if you somehow can't get close enough for their conversation to trigger without them detecting you - game problem actually use anything with chameleon or invisibility because sneak in this game is actually broken
In all fairness being smart enough to see the red flags and know your business partner is doing something illegal, is not the same thing as knowing what it actually is, but ya the knowing he'd be at the mausoleum was a dead giveaway.
@@ABardsBallad I don't disagree, I'm just saying that aside from him knowing he'd be at a mausoleum I would be willing to believe he didn't know what the man was doing, could be a smuggler or a fence for either the thieves guild or a group of pirates. But yes there is no way he didn't realize it had to be illegal, but plenty of legitimate businessmen have worked with criminals and managed to get away with it by just intentionally not looking into what their business partner was doing. Because while ignorance of the law is no defense in the case of aiding and abetting ignorance of another parties actions actually is a defense.
The fact that Agarmir knows that we were coming there, always made me think that Thoronir warned him and would have sided with the winner of the fight, obviously betting on his earnings. I am actually suprised that most of the people trusts him now
Honestly he isn’t lying, but in some extended yes he is, but the true villain on the quest is the black shirt nord, and not only there were clever elements, I think it is implied he will make a donation later on, however. It’s implied that he did it off screen.
I must totally disagree with you on Thoronir. First of all I believe you are overstating his reactions. First reaction. I can't tell you it's a trade secret. This makes perfect sense. If you had a secret source that gave you an advantage in business you wouldn't go announcing it to just anyone who asked and risk the info getting out to others hence losing your great advantage. Second. Reaction to being accused of selling stolen merchandise. Maybe YOU would laugh it off as a joke and that's YOUR personality but many peoples normal reaction would be first to be shocked by the accusation ESPECIALLY if you believe you have done nothing wrong. That could be followed up by becoming greatly offended and becoming angry with the audacity of some stranger who doesn't know you at all coming into your business and leveling accusations. These reactions make PERFECT SENSE. You also state that Thoronir gets upset with you when you show him the Macabre Manifest but this is completely untrue. He actually acts shocked and becomes very distraught and says he can't believe these things were once on the recently deceased. Also you mention that because Thoronir proclaims to be so intelligent that someone as smart as him should know "bla bla bla." Really. Because someone CLAIMS to be intelligent that makes it so? Typically people that brag about being super smart or highly skilled in some other way are actually nothing of the sort. Such bragging stems from their insecurities as they aren't what they claim to be at all. The truly gifted typically feel no need to brag about it as it just shows in their skill and confidence. As for him knowing that Agarmir would be at the tomb. This may sound suspicious but is circumstantial at best. Thoronir could easily believe he is there paying respects to friends and loved ones. If you take a look at Thoronir's actions they are not that of a guilty man at all. First off once shown the evidence he is immediately willing to cease operation, assist the player in Agarmir's downfall and makes amends with the rest of the merchant community. Would a guilty person behave this way? NO. They would deny everything and try to salvage as much as they can. Even the in game characters believe him and it is obvious why.
After the first time, I never did the Thoronir Quest again. Because; 1) Jensine is a total Karen and I absolutely loathe her. 2) The fact that several Traders are complaining about Thoronir's low prices undercutting them, means that those same Traders are operating a Cartel, with agreed prices across the board - give or take a GP or two - and is thus an effective Monopoly trying to drive Thoronir out of business. Duck Fat Shiz!! I don't actually GAF where he gets his gear, we all do what we must. 3) WE, the Player, join the Thieve's Guild AND the Dark Brotherhood AND consort with Vampires AND we work for Daedra!! Not to mention the petty pilfering and 'justified murders' we carry out . . . I ain't gonna judge Thoronir.
Why is it that everyone villain in this game always know you're coming and monolog at you? Seriously though I would like for at least one to be surprised at how you caught them red-handed and who doesn't monolog at you.
I love how ironic quest's that evolve gathering evidence, for upholding law. Have you breaking the law. To do so. XD Your Always breaking into someplace, and stealing something. To bring things to light. Something a lawfully good character would never do... Even though this is the kind of quest, that would catch their eye. XD
Are you just spoiling a quest for me. No way. I'll play it myself. I just hope it is not as bad, freedomless, pointless, rewardless and scripted as Two Sides of the Coin.
Once you've killed the evil grave robbers remember to rob the unique mace from the grave.
Shit…
An excellent early game weapon for blunt users.
@@cross3052 as well as a god teir weapon for leveled users.
Hey, we didn’t dig it up. We just happened to see it simply lying around. Might as well make use of it
I think that he probably knows the source is illegal, but I’m not sure he knew it was grave robbing. I say this because he expressed that he was malcontent with getting the same type of goods from Agaramir such as clothes. If he knew that it was grave robbing then he would’ve understood why he was only getting the same kind of stuff. People tend to be buried with similar items.
This was my thought too. My guess is that Thoronir suspected it was likely stolen, or maybe even that Agamir had some kind of mafia-esque scheme going with a person who transports goods (think Goodfellas with the trucks from the airport). By not asking exactly how Agamir got his wares, Thoronir was insulating himself if things went wrong. That being said, I doubt he would have done business at all with Agamir had he thought he was doing something like grave robbery or murder
I’ve been looking for quality Oblivion videos this is exactly what I was looking for ! I was hooked from the first second
That was really too kind of you! Thank you so much for the super!! Tons of more content to fun quests to come! Again thank you so much! :)
This is the first side quest I remember doing in Oblivion.
When the game first released it was also a good introduction to the then-new Radiant AI system that had NPCs moving around and following schedules, and I remember being *excited* for what was essentially a tailing mission as I stalked him through the district wondering what I would find. Morrowind had the Farhoth's hiding place quest which involved watching where Fargoth hid his gold from the lighthouse, but it required scripting each stage making it the exception, while Oblivion making having NPCs moving around and traveling between cells allowed scripted quest bits to fit more naturally into the existing NPC behavior so such quests taking advantage of such things became more common and immersive. NPCs already went about their business, and the game gave me a reason to follow one and a mystery to solve. I still prefer Morrowind but this quest was definitely Oblivion putting a good foot forward and making a compelling case for Radiant AI being a great improvement
The Radiant AI is certainly something special! Definitely a good showcase for it with this quest! :)
Ive watched nearly every RUclips video covering this quest and youre the first to suggest thoronir is in on it. And it all makes too much sense. Bravo!
Thank you for the support! I’ve always thought that he was at the very least turning a blind eye to what was actually going on, and even though there’s no actual confirmation, Bethesda is really smart and cunning when it comes to they’re background stories and extra info!
Also, bosmer culture approves of cannibalism under certain circumstances, so grave robbery wouldn't be all that abhorrent for Thoronir.
Always felt something was off with Thoronir, you really put the final nail in the coffin, pun intended.
The meeting at midnight between him and agarmir is just so weird! It’s really hard to believe he at least didn’t know about what was happening!
It's actually very helpful to wait on this quest until you're a high level for a guaranteed unenchanted daedric helmet on Rolgarel.
I didn’t think about it from that approach! Definitely a decent idea to wait also for higher level loot!
@@ABardsBallad It's the daedric helmet in particular that gets peoples' goat. Most methods of finding one you'll see online involve save scumming outside some dungeon or other. I've known about this little trick since back in the day and have since purposefully tried to find one through random luck and come up empty after hours of playing.
@@jmass4207yea, marauders rarely (never afaik) wear helmets, except for the Boss. And most of the time it's gonna be enchanted.
This the gauntlets and helmets are harder to find
They really arent that hard to find though...? Oblivion gates are everywhere ive walked away with stacks of them....
I binged all your videos, these are exactly the kind of content I like, keep it up man! I'll watch it all.
Thank you for the support! I really appreciate it! :)
This quest is just a great case in point as to why oblivion quest lines are just so much better than Skyrim
Appreciate the support!! I totally agree! In Skyrim I barely want to touch the side quests! In oblivion they’re all I want to do! 😂
It always bothered me that daedric prince quests were city side quests in Skyrim. In Oblivion, city quests and daedric quests were separate. 2 of the city quests in Markarth are deadra prince quests. It just feels like poor writing.
@anauthenticapple3974 It might be somewhat sacreligious to say this, but Skyrim's named quests are actually pretty good. Most of them, at least. Laid to Rest, the Man Who Cried Wolf, and most of the Thieves Guild quests are pretty good, too. The questlines for the Companions and the College are also really good; problem is, they're abysmally short (Seriously, six quests in and you're the fucking Arch-mage? Really?).
Not to mention pretty much any quest you do on behalf of the Dark Brotherhood is virtually guaranteed to be at least decent (Then again, the Dark Brotherhood questline is typically a highlight in any Elder Scrolls game).
I understand what Bethesda was going for with the various Daedric quests, as they're just strewn about and all. It's the idea that the Daedric Princes are an ever-present threat, and they could strike at any given moment. But it potentially screws over the player, when they inadvertently stumble across a Daedric Quest, and are now stuck with a rare item. The item is a one-of-a-kind, meaning simply dropping or selling it is something many players (myself included) don't want to do. Problem is, many of these weapons can be _heavy as hell_ (looking at you, Volendrung), thus clogging up the player's inventory; this is particularly annoying if they player doesn't have access to a house yet. Wabbajack is a particularly bad offender here, as once the player properly starts "the Mind of Madness", the only way out is to either complete the quest, or reload their save file.
The various "Miscellaneous" quests, though? They basically boil down to either "reclaim/steal something", or "glorified delivery driver". To me, it feels like Bethesda wanted to give Skyrim a shit-ton more quests, only to give up halfway through. Part of that can be chalked up to time constraints; most notably, in the Civil War. The Civil War was originally intended to be much more expansive, with battles potentially being fought in _every_ hold capital (as opposed to just Whiterun and Solitude/Windhelm), the possibility of actually losing a battle, etc. But due to most likely time constraints, Bethesda resorted to making the Civil War a series of skirmishes in random forts, until you reach the enemy's capital.
If you like, the mod "Open Civil War" gives you a pretty good indication of Bethesda's original vision for the Civil War.
6:36 how lucky you happened to find that mace that lodged itself behind a grave!!!
Thanks, I did not know about the mace 😊
Also, totally agree with your argument regarding Thoronir actually knowing 😊
It could go either way for Thoronir knowing for sure! But I can’t shake with his dialogue that he’s not as innocent as he seems!
I was hiding in the WRONG bush 😂 excuse me for thinking the dense bush would cover me better than those tiny shrubs!
Do you shave down there?
if you somehow can't get close enough for their conversation to trigger without them detecting you - game problem actually
use anything with chameleon or invisibility because sneak in this game is actually broken
That's what I did
In all fairness being smart enough to see the red flags and know your business partner is doing something illegal, is not the same thing as knowing what it actually is, but ya the knowing he'd be at the mausoleum was a dead giveaway.
The meeting at midnight was just too sketchy on Thoronir’s part for me to believe he wasn’t turning a blind eye! 😂
@@ABardsBallad I don't disagree, I'm just saying that aside from him knowing he'd be at a mausoleum I would be willing to believe he didn't know what the man was doing, could be a smuggler or a fence for either the thieves guild or a group of pirates. But yes there is no way he didn't realize it had to be illegal, but plenty of legitimate businessmen have worked with criminals and managed to get away with it by just intentionally not looking into what their business partner was doing. Because while ignorance of the law is no defense in the case of aiding and abetting ignorance of another parties actions actually is a defense.
The fact that Agarmir knows that we were coming there, always made me think that Thoronir warned him and would have sided with the winner of the fight, obviously betting on his earnings. I am actually suprised that most of the people trusts him now
Honestly he isn’t lying, but in some extended yes he is, but the true villain on the quest is the black shirt nord, and not only there were clever elements, I think it is implied he will make a donation later on, however. It’s implied that he did it off screen.
It’s awesome video I just wish when the voice actors are on screen we could hear them… helps with immersion and nostalgia
So how long do we wait to break into Agarmir's house?!?
I must totally disagree with you on Thoronir. First of all I believe you are overstating his reactions. First reaction. I can't tell you it's a trade secret. This makes perfect sense. If you had a secret source that gave you an advantage in business you wouldn't go announcing it to just anyone who asked and risk the info getting out to others hence losing your great advantage. Second. Reaction to being accused of selling stolen merchandise. Maybe YOU would laugh it off as a joke and that's YOUR personality but many peoples normal reaction would be first to be shocked by the accusation ESPECIALLY if you believe you have done nothing wrong. That could be followed up by becoming greatly offended and becoming angry with the audacity of some stranger who doesn't know you at all coming into your business and leveling accusations. These reactions make PERFECT SENSE. You also state that Thoronir gets upset with you when you show him the Macabre Manifest but this is completely untrue. He actually acts shocked and becomes very distraught and says he can't believe these things were once on the recently deceased. Also you mention that because Thoronir proclaims to be so intelligent that someone as smart as him should know "bla bla bla." Really. Because someone CLAIMS to be intelligent that makes it so? Typically people that brag about being super smart or highly skilled in some other way are actually nothing of the sort. Such bragging stems from their insecurities as they aren't what they claim to be at all. The truly gifted typically feel no need to brag about it as it just shows in their skill and confidence. As for him knowing that Agarmir would be at the tomb. This may sound suspicious but is circumstantial at best. Thoronir could easily believe he is there paying respects to friends and loved ones. If you take a look at Thoronir's actions they are not that of a guilty man at all. First off once shown the evidence he is immediately willing to cease operation, assist the player in Agarmir's downfall and makes amends with the rest of the merchant community. Would a guilty person behave this way? NO. They would deny everything and try to salvage as much as they can. Even the in game characters believe him and it is obvious why.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment this and voice your opinion! Any theory is valid!
After the first time, I never did the Thoronir Quest again.
Because;
1) Jensine is a total Karen and I absolutely loathe her.
2) The fact that several Traders are complaining about Thoronir's low prices undercutting them, means that those same Traders are operating a Cartel, with agreed prices across the board - give or take a GP or two - and is thus an effective Monopoly trying to drive Thoronir out of business. Duck Fat Shiz!! I don't actually GAF where he gets his gear, we all do what we must.
3) WE, the Player, join the Thieve's Guild AND the Dark Brotherhood AND consort with Vampires AND we work for Daedra!!
Not to mention the petty pilfering and 'justified murders' we carry out . . . I ain't gonna judge Thoronir.
you should do a video on the most annoying quest!
😂😂😂 I like it! There’s about 500 of those, it’ll be hard to pick
@@ABardsBallad If you _really_ feel like suffering, you could always have a chat with Sinderion.
@@NegativeDumpster 👀 I have a great video about this coming out on Monday!
I think mine is glitched. I have the proof but he’s just saying he won’t listen to me unless I have proof. I’ve tried everything.
Why is it that everyone villain in this game always know you're coming and monolog at you? Seriously though I would like for at least one to be surprised at how you caught them red-handed and who doesn't monolog at you.
That's not how you pronounce "macabre."
u should let the npcs talk. otherwise good video as allways.
I love how ironic quest's that evolve gathering evidence, for upholding law. Have you breaking the law. To do so. XD
Your Always breaking into someplace, and stealing something. To bring things to light.
Something a lawfully good character would never do... Even though this is the kind of quest, that would catch their eye. XD
ah yes the lord of the rings inspired/nod quest
Are you just spoiling a quest for me.
No way. I'll play it myself.
I just hope it is not as bad, freedomless, pointless, rewardless and scripted as Two Sides of the Coin.