I Use A Hydrogen Fueling Station For The First Time!
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- Опубликовано: 24 апр 2022
- Kyle is in California with a new Toyota Mirai. In this video he visits a True Zero Hydrogen fueling station to see how one charges? fills? a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.
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#Hydrogen #FCV #Mirai 
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Lots of cost comments. I think most (every?) new hydrogen vehicles comes with free filling - in the case of the Mirai they give you $15k preloaded onto a card. Not saying it’s cheap but most people seem to lease these cars and pay $0 to fill.
This is a big thing, I’m not a fan at all of the car but credit where credit is due the fact that you get compensated a huge sum of money for your costs and get really good range (i think it’s Jeremy clarksons Mirai got around 360 miles on a tank)
Yeah that's a great convience.
This was how Tesla got started by offering free supercharging to their early adopters
Half a tank for $42, so ~$80 for a full tank with 320 miles of range. That's roughly 4 miles per dollar, which is about 20 miles per cost equivalence of a gallon of gas. That $15k credit will last ~60k miles (~5 years?). Sure is a nice incentive, but especially with Toyota's recent huge investment in EVs I feel like the hydrogen support will stagnate. In 5 years time, I wouldn't be surprised if the resale value of these things crashed, especially after the fuel incentive expires. I feel sorry for any Mirai OWNERS. Leasing definitely seems like the only feasible option on these.
yeah even if this is a dead end technology, taking advantage of a heavily subsidized product is the smart thing to do.
I have a 2021 Model 3 SR+. Last week, I had to meet with three clients in in three different locations in one day.
I left home in Sacramento with 100% from charging (while I slept). First stop: San Francisco (110 miles, 50% remaining). Next stop, SF to Santa Rosa (~55 miles, 25% remaining). Last stop, Petaluma (~20 miles, 10% remaining). After my meeting in Petaluma, I stopped for a 15 minute charge (no waiting, no line), which brought me back to 60% SoC, enough for the ~90 mile trip home. By the time I got home, I still had 20% “in the tank.”
Total charge for 286 miles: $13.00, for both home charging and Supercharger.
Now repeat this trip at 10 deg F with a SR+ with resistance heat.
Nice if you have the infrastructure in place as Tesla does.
@@rosepaul9681
The same comment spies to hydrogen.
And now fill up 5 cars in a row ;-)
A typical station would need some time to be prepared for the next and the next car...
And EV chargers get crowded.. and each car will spend 15-45 min there...
@@kens97sto171 h2 stations are much more expensive, so there won't be so many and each car will spend 20 minutes or more to be filled up when it's not the only one around.
... because the station needs to prepare the gas, pressurize and cool it.
I leased a Mirai for 3 years and turned it in last November. I loved the car and free fuel but the infrastructure was unreliable. Station downtime and hydrogen supply were the biggest culprits. I lost track of how many times I left the house at midnight to avoid long lines at the dispenser. I drive a Tesla now and love it but I miss people driving up next to me frantically waving and telling me my car is leaking 😂 (water is a byproduct for hydrogen cars)
In the UK there have been 13 hydrogen stations for a population of over 65 million people. One was faulty and went offline permanently and five others were almost never operational. Of the four countries in the UK the availability was as follows: Ireland had no stations, Wales had one, Scotland had two and England had the other surviving eight. Of the English stations six were located around the capital city of London and half of those were faulty for most of their existence to date. So if you lived outside of London your chances of finding a working hydrogen station at all were slim to none. In London it was 50/50 at best.
I'm using the past tense because these figures are based on a map of charge stations as of February. I've just seen the map live as I type this and Scotland now have three stations with one not operational. London now has only one failed station. So currently there are 12 stations (+ one offline), 2 failed, 10 operational and six (50% of the total capacity) in London. Seeing as the Mirai has less than 300 miles range and London to Scotland is over 400 miles you won't see anyone driving from London to Scotland unless they divert through Sheffield as that has the only English hyrdogen station North of London. Not exactly convenient infrastructure.
Vehicles occasionally have water come out of exhaust... no one ever actually flagged you down believing your car is leaking, huh?
Weird flex...
@@InitialFailure the Mirai doesn’t have an exhaust pipe. And yes, most Mirai drivers have been told their cars are leaking.
@@vpbandhist it doesn't have an exhaust pipe!? That's insane!
...
OK now that we're done stating the obvious, what I was making was a general assumption one would make if a little water was coming off a vehicle. Most people won't even wave someone down for oil leaks, let alone some water. I'll also note you said most Mirai drivers vs you specifically distancing yourself. Am I saying you probably never even drove one? No, but what you're saying is just beyond what one would expect. Odds are, never happen and you might not have ever even driven one.
@@vpbandhist It has an exhaust pipe, but not a conventional type that sticks out of the far rear. So one might think that the car is leaking.
A couple of things you seem to have missed:
1) Generating hydrogen from water using electricity is hugely wasteful. For every 3kw of electricity you use to create the hydrogen there is only 1kw of electricity that ends up in the car battery. That's a 66% loss compared to the 15% loss of just putting the electricity straight into an electric car.
2) There's a lot of natural resources used in hydrogen and certainly a great deal of cost. The weight advantage is made redundant by the fact that you can only spare so much room for hydrogen in the vehicle. More hydrogen for more range needs a bigger tank. Conversely in electric cars the amount of energy, the weight and the size improve on a monthly basis. For example, a Renault Zoe 50 has 132% more battery capacity than the original Zoe but it's the exact same size. Similar is true of the Nissan Leafs. In both cases you can swap the higher capacity batteries into the lower capacity models because the size is basically the same. With hydrogen you can only put in bigger tanks if you want more hydrogen available. Then you'll need higher density batteries anyway because you'll have less space for power storage modules. So, again, might as well use that tech to just make a pure EV.
3) EVS were never as hard to live with as Hydrogen cars currently are. There is electricity everywhere and EVs are always constructed to take advantage of the available outlets. When there were only domestic sockets available they were made to use domestic power. Now that Ultra Rapid chargers are available some EVs are made to cope with 250kw+ (400kw+ units on the way). Also hydrogen infrastructure is WAY behind the availability of EV infrastructure.
4) As shown when the car is filled it costs a LOT more to fill than a Tesla Model 3 and actually ends up with less range. Remember that's on top of the rarity of such stations compared to the tidal wave of electric chargers. And as pointed out you can't get hydrogen at home any more than you can get petrol or diesel. No domestic option for this fuel. Also you get exactly the same issues with the environmental impact of the production, transport and refills that you get with petrol and diesel. Electricity does not need to be transported to charge stations in a truck, or refined or laced with Cobalt to make it a viable fuel.
5) It's neither a fuelling station nor a charging station. The hydrogen is not the "fuel" that powers the car. It is merely the fuel that powers the hydrogen cells that create the electricity that goes into the battery that powers the car. In short, the car doesn't run on hydrogen and the station doesn't provide the electricity that actually powers the motor.
In addition.
The Model 3 (the "small" Tesla) has double the cargo capacity of the Marai (that'll be 140L of Hydrogen tanks?).
.
"Green" hydrogen is taking that extra green energy from the grid rather than having it offset (remove) fossil generation.
That results in s dirtier grid.
"Green" hydrogen is "dirty"
(Untill the grid is 10/% green, at which point, there's no need for it!)
Generating electricity from water! Last I checked there's tons of water around!
@@filoniz you mean clean water? Sure in the middle of the deserts.
@@filoniz And more tons of electric energy? I don't think so. Manufacturing green hydrogen needs a total of 5 times more energy than BEV's (which hdrogen cars actually are, concidentally...) So if one wind generator can power e.g. 2000 cars the same generator can power only 400 hydrogen cars.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 ruclips.net/video/WsswrLKlinU/видео.html seems like nuclear is the way to go
Agree with Kyle. Hydrogen makes a lot of sense for medium to heavy duty vehicles. Passenger cars are better as EVs. Can't beat charging at home. Chargers at apartments are the next big hurdle for EVs
Can definitely beat charging at home, if you don't have charging at home. 40% of the drivers in the world do not have access to overnight charging. Can't design a vehicle to that will displace all ICE vehicles that is impractical for 40% of the population of drivers. FCEVs are practical for all drivers (even if you do have access to a charger in a garage). The proof of this, is that is exactly what we have done for the last 100 years.
@@homomorphic Getting home charging for those other 40% of drivers is a lot cheaper than building a ton of new inefficient hydrogen processing facilities. I can plug my EV into any wall socket and get energy. I call that way more practical.
@@ampedampson5140 no it isn't. Not even close. In the US alone it would cost trillions of dollars to upgrade the electrical distribution in dense urban areas to support an additional 9kW load per household. The cost to provide as many hydeogen stations as there are gas stations would be about $60B a fraction of the cost.
Yoy really just completely pulled that assertion out of your ass didn't you? You literally had no idea what the actual relative costs are (and had never even thought about it for a single moment before you responded to this post) right?
Currently, yes. If there was infrastructure in place (a VERY big assumption) it would be potentially better. It effectively is an electric car anyway.
In the meantime, BEV is far better for most people now. I think it would be incredible to start hydrogen stations near warehouses for trucking purposes. Smaller scale infrastructure can then expand in surrounding areas as adoption increases
@@ardenthebibliophile it would cost about $60B to have as many hydrogen stations as there are gas stations. It would cost trillions to tear up all the downtowns of dense urban areas to add the capacity to service another 9kW load for every household.
Before electric was a thing I worked in the CNG industry for Trucks and Busses, (and some cars and light trucks). Those pressures were at 3000-3600 PSI and you had to really know your stuff and watch for safety. That pressure, if something went wrong, could send something at 2-3 times the speed that a bullet comes out of a gun, so 10,000 PSI is insane. I think I'll stick to gasoline at atmospheric pressure or 150-350 Kwh of electricity from a charger.
Wikipedia says that it takes at best 50kWh to create 1kg of hydrogen using electrolysis at scale. The Mirai has a 5kg capacity which enables 312 miles of range. So, 50kWh for 62 miles. Only 1.25 miles per kWh???? I don't understand how anyone thinks that this is a sustainable future. The carbon footprint of fueling this car is 3-4× worse than an EV, and that's not even considering the carbon footprint of trucking the fuel to the stations.
It makes sense if we get to the point we have an excess of clean energy on our grid we don't know what to do with. But that we do not have
Agreed, I also can't figure out why people are so adverse from just going from sun to car or sun to stove. Introducing more intermediates is less efficient. The only side of the argument I can understand is batteries require a lot of mining. With recycling though that'll decrease to hopefully very small amounts. I just think its impractical to use hydrogen. Just throw all resources in EV's. Make them efficient as possible, reduce their impact on the environment, etc.
@@JandCanO We will * NEVER * have excess clean energy. That is the point of capitalism. Supply will always be restricted less than the "market clearing" demand for it. That restriction is what raises the price to maximize the profits within the system. Voters scream like crazy over the first dollar spent, they will scream even louder at putting more money into something once it gets to 90% of the way to the goal. Putting even more money into something once it has achieved what can be widely explained as complete is a good way to not get elected again. No private company will ever put money into overbuilding infrastructure either. That's the fast way to lower the return on investment.
@@Jaxamuss You need to mine platinum to make the fuel cells for hydrogen vehicles which is rarer and more expensive than gold.
@@Jaxamuss Also you do know that most FCEV have lithium batteries in them and require much rarer minerals to run right?
Hydrogen refuelling feels like the vision of the future in the 90’s. I think hydrogen would make sense for shipping / trucking industry if The energy density for batteries don’t improve.
if $40 to fill a half-full tank, or $80 to fill the tank
and a full tank gives a range of 320 miles
then $80 for 320 miles
but a small hybrid can do 320 in about 6.4 gal, or CA prices, $35-36
I thought their EPA rating was 402 miles?
Informative video from Kyle - learned something about the hydrogen filling stations... It was also nice to see Kyle like a kid in a candy store when he was filling the car! Lot's of enthusiasm - great to see. I for one am ready for alt-EV vehicles and would purchase a hydrogen cell fuel car if they sold them and had infrastructure in TX. Looking forward to the review of the Mirai.
Terrible decision
Current cost of ;hydrogen equates to more than $.25/mile. Electric cars cost from $.02 to $.10 a mile depending on local cost of electricity.
Definitely DOA. This is what we get for government interference in the market, money flushed down the toilet.
@@Mrbfgray tesla has been a huge recipient of government money without government “interference” electric cars would never have a hope of taking off at all.
@@Newspeak. Tesla received DOE loan of around $0.5B which they paid back with interest and early payment penalties, F and GM took 10's of billions on that program which they haven't paid back and never will, won't be able to.
The other subsidies long ago ran out for Tesla, *all* EV mfgs get it and were a product of GM's (Government Motors) lobbying not Tesla. Further subsidies from both the EU and USA have been declined ($1.5B Europe) and apposed by Tesla (BBB proposal).
@@Newspeak. So has Ford, GM, and Chrysler, I mean FiatChrysler, wait now it's Stellantis.
@@tonii5690
You killed THAT Thread!
😂😉
Must give GM credit though.
They took the money, had it written off, then STILL managed to accumulate ANOTHER 35bn debt in the next 10 years!
TALENT!
Right, we already have electricity everywhere. We just need more level 2 charging everywhere people park to live, work, and run errands. I can already charge a bit getting groceries and at a couple store areas and arrive back home with at least the range I used on that round trip. There isn't a need to continue going to a special place to refuel your car. But I can see it for large depots and maybe busses but those are already going electric now. I doubt those fleet owners want to pay the high cost of hydrogen. I can't buy that car in my area because I can't refuel it, and what independent station owner is going to invest the million dollars installing that when there are no cars in the area to use it? What's the ROI for them? At least my slow charging Bolt could get me across the country!
You've already answered all of your questions in this comment. Just go back to the year 2010-12 , and replace the word electric in your comment with GAS/PETROL and replace the word hydrogen with electric and you have your answers. This was exact situation which electric cars were in , this is a normal cycle for any new technology. Most of the people live in apartment nowadays, not everybody can afford a house with garage. And it's hard to charge your car in apartments, people struggle to even get permission to install their charger in apartments.
@@kushal518 Wrong. There is NO hydrogen at my wall outlets and only 17% of Americans live in apartments (stay away from common core math). …and I actually charge two EVs at my apartment.
@@brendykes6599 so you say that america decides where the people in rest of the world lives🤔🤷🏻♂️ . And since you can charge car from your wall outlet rest of the world including the people who live in apartments can also charge cars from their outlets?
@@brendykes6599 adding to the apartment thing it is becoming a more popular housing system, not everyone can afford a house, so the percentage of people living in apartment will be growing. And currently less than 1% vehicles are EV's imagine at 100% vehicles being EV's and waiting in line for vehicles to charge at a charging station. Not every country in the World has sommuch land in the city for cars to stay for a minimum of 30-45 minutes for a charge, it's hard finding a parking space itself. World can't run on a one single thing it's always better to have an alternative
@@kushal518 no matter the living situation. Cars have to park somewhere. It seems to me that setting up charging where cars already park is easier than building out inefficient hydrogen infrastructure. My city has parking meters with charging built in. It really wouldn’t be that difficult to set up level 1 or level 2 charging pretty much everywhere in a city. Charging would occur every time the cars is parked and the battery would be “full” almost every time it is driven. In case you aren’t aware, level 1 charging is adequate for most daily use. ~50 miles of charge overnight.
$80 bucks for 260 mi range. Yeah I’m sure that will totally take off.
And to every hydrogen support coming to this comments reply’s,
No, we don’t care about your wild fantasies where there is no profit margin and a lack of understanding of basic physical limits.
Have a nice day.
Toyota has a 3 year deal that gives a huge discount to filling up besides even at 80 bucks it’s still cheaper than gas at the moment I call that a win win
@@ram64man 80$ with a discount? That's awesome! (Good joke)
definitely not cheaper than gas unless you have a sub 20 mpg vehicle. at 20 mpg and 5$ a gallon 260 miles would require 13 gallons or 65$ the national average for gas is closer to 4$ and most vehicles are closer to 25mpg.
@@HarrisonAdAstra Don't worry, I feel this way about both hydrogen and EVs. Suffice to say the enviro-fucker feds will have to pry my 02 chevy trailblazer over my dead body...
Hydrogen fuel cell technology are basically generators that charge batteries. That fill up was expensive considering the range. The only reason there is any value to those cars is free hydrogen. Out of pocket its crazy expensive.
There is no such thing as a free meal.
The other "value" is time. Speed of refill matters for many users. My take is that hydrogen makes sense mainly for vehicles that cycle to/from depots but need rapid refueling (think medium/long-haul trucks, intercity buses and possibly regional aircraft with electric motors). Easy to establish tankage and filling apparatus and to centralize cleaner H2 generation. H2 is far less practical and necessary for passenger cars, which can be regularly charged overnight with only occasional rapid charging needed. The combination of those will greatly help the transition from fossil fuels.
The range is 400 miles for that price.. about the same as gas in California. He did say in the video the range estimate was based on his past driving and ripping the car around.
Enjoyed your video thanks for posting!
Thanks for the the video, I'll be looking for Mirai once they install fueling stations in my city.
The way I see it. EVs for us regular folks, Hydrogen Fuel Cell for big Semis. They consistently need to go far (state to state), they need fueling stations along the road, they need to fuel quick and go. I see a future with Hydrogen for commercial transports, and regular EVs for consumers.
This is so good, we only have 2 hydrogen charging stations in Australia, none in my city Sydney. Hopefully this catches on over here too. 5 min charge is awesome and the range is better than electric. Good future!
It's a unique technology for sure! It will be interesting to see how EVs and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will compare in the coming years and what advancements we'll see to mitigate some of the disadvantages each vehicle has.
Hydrogen powered cars are dumb. He paid $80 for 260miles. EVs are way cheaper.
@@parthpatel8532 Hydrogen is the future and when they find a way to produce hydrogen cheaper and cleaner then I'm sure people would prefer to have a hydrogen car just because is faster to fill and like the battery technology keeps improving the cell energy will eventually improve soon we have more cars driving.
@@slanwar I don't think so. The main reason electricity is the future over hydrogen is because hydrogen requires you to go to the pump. Which means companies can have fluctuating prices. Just like the oil prices right now! Instead, electricity is better. A standard rate of 12 cents per kwh. It's centralized by the govt. Meaning prices don't fluctuate. Even if they figured out a way to make hydrogen cheaper, they won't. They will form something like OPEC and make a cartel and stock supply of hydrogen so they can artificially raise prices. Which is why hydrogen powered car is a stupid idea. All this to save time at pump? I'd rather have a car that charges at home 99% of the time and the rare time I do a road trip, I can charge for 30 mins.
It’s like filling CNG back in the 80’s. Lots of noise and cold handles.
Want to add that most if not all hydrogen stations in California are storage for the hydrogen fuel gas. I have seen the 18-wheeler semi transfers it from one tank to the storage tanks. Never have I seen a swap of a hydrogen take in my area in Southern California.
I’m 100% against hydrogen but I’m glad to see you testing these out just purely for the novelty of it.
I think they missed their time. Tesla is changing the game, and fuel cells are solving the old problem. They may still have a future for semis and farm tractors though, atm batteries can't match the energy storage of 500 gallons of diesel. Each farm and truck stop would need a Hydrogen maker onsite though.
The future is going to me a mix of fuel sources. Combustion, Fuel Cell, and Battery Electric. There are too many variables and different use cases for vehicles.
Batteries use A LOT of natural resources none of which are exactly clean to obtain.. ever seen a lithium mine??? Fossil Fuels have there issues, and The source of the Hydrogen is the main issue. If taken from natural gas.. defeats the desired goal. However if taken from electrolysis and powered from clean energy sources.. It has major advantages.
Fast fueling and range are the biggest.. Especially in trucking and other heavy duty uses.. And as Kyle pointed out in his other video.. not everyone has access to home charging.
Long term storage is another benefit.. I can fill my gas car.. let it sit for 6 months.. and it will still have full tank and range, a fuel cell will also.. a BEV will not.
Why?
@@kens97sto171 It's true that you don't need to do anywhere near as much mining with FCEV's when compared to BEV's but you also need twice the energy to achieve the same result since FCEV's are 50% less efficient overall than BEV's. That energy needs to come from somewhere and creating energy isn't free, it's resource intensive (solar panels, windmills etc...).
Range only for trucking and other large vehicles because hydrogen has poor volumetric energy density so in passenger cars you're not going to get amazing range. As a matter of fact in a passenger car you can get better range out of a battery electric vehicle and with time that gap will only increase as hydrogen tanks are limited by the laws of physics.
@@boostav
I don't disagree with your statement about fuel cell EVS versus bevs. But the thing with Trucking is you've got a lot more space in a big truck to put larger hydrogen fuel tanks. You also have the advantage of rapid refueling something that's important with Trucking. Also even if those trucks went back to a mean terminal every night they could have a hydrogen refueling station installed just for their use. The main advantage with Trucking is the fuel cell doesn't weigh as much as would the batteries require to achieve the same output. And wait is everything in trucking. Every pound the truck weighs is a pound less you can carry as cargo.
For passenger vehicles I agree with you I think battery electric or quite frankly even gasoline mild hybrid is the better choice. Because you don't have enough space in a passenger vehicle to accommodate large enough hydrogen tanks to make a meaningful difference beyond what is being done today. Now it's possible that 20 years from now the fuel cell stack might be 1/4 of the size and you would have more room for the hydrogen storage. There's also the possibility that some material science may come around that gives more strength with less space allowing you to carry more volume.
I think in the future we're going to see a mixed energy source for transportation. Use whatever energy source or propulsion system makes sense for the given use of the vehicle.
This was a great video because it shows me exactly why these Hydrogen vehicles just aren’t viable.
They seem quite viable to me based on this video. Or at least hydrogen larger commercial vehicles.
@@benjaminsmith2287 Yup very viable. Costs more for the car, costs more to repair, costs more to fuel, no infrastructure, to add enough stations to fill the cars and trucks would be around a TRILLION dollars, 99% of all hydrogen is produced through steam reformation which pollutes just as bad as burning gas. I am sure when all of these things are presented to a commercial operation they will gladly pay more for less while not even getting green credit.
@@benjaminsmith2287 no hydrogen refilling stations on your country? No electric hydrogen vehicles on the streets.
@@Aircam73 that is 100% correct. You nailed it. I wish Hydrogen was viable but it just simply isn’t. It isn’t an efficient way to power a passenger vehicle no matter how you look at it.
no one has any appreciation or patience. ICE cars were 'dumb' at first too. a lot of people were like "ill stick to my horse, thanks" but now they've been perfected.
biological evolution takes thousands of years, engineering takes decades or centuries. to judge it completely off of the first iterations is so silly.
Fast filling like gas, and good to go. And without exhaust fumes. I’d say electric cars for local commutes and hydrogen for trucking, SUVs and long journeys, and eventually it could be that all transporting on wheels (also rails) will run on hydrogen. Great video. Would’ve been nice to see more of the car though..
The future of power generation for cars. Took over 100 years from inception of gas engines for batteries to be viable so I expect the same for hydrogen. Luckily anyone arguing about it won’t be around to see the beauty
I’m 14 and know hydrogen is one of the biggest scams in the vehicle world. 96% of hydrogen is from fossil fuels but it is still being promoted as ‘clean’.
Hydrogens only purpose is to keep oil companies happy.
14:30 "renewable hydrogen" refers to the way the hydrogen was produced, the h2 dispensed at that station is 100% from renewable energy (typically electrolysis thru wind, solar, or hydro) also known as green hydrogen. nonrenewable hydrogen is through natural gas reforming; some stations use that instead (although I think 33% is required to be renewable) (grey/blue + green hybrid hydrogen)
Great to see how it works. I have learnt more from the video than from loads of other sources. The technology has its place. Not sure that it will be the number one option for the passenger car. Would you like the Miri to have a plug to charge the battery at home. The Toyota self charging think prevents you adding a bit of cheap electricity. Will watch the Miri review now. Thanks Kyle and Elisa.
The cost seems to be about equivalent to an ICE at $80 to fill that car's tanks. It does contribute to a cleaner atmosphere - sort of. The production from fossil fuel generating station to tank trucks and down the road to a filling station makes me wonder what the total pollution footprint is. But electricity is still being produced by fossil fuel fired generating stations although there are many more alternative systems for generating electricity. I don't know, it seems on the surface to be a system with a higher pollution index (if there is such a term). The infrastructure issues seem huge, like we'll never have a hydrogen fueling station at home. Overall I'm glad to see all sorts of alternatives to fossil fuels being experimented so hydrogen folks - go for it!
Well done Team, very informative
The relationship between gas volume, pressure, and temperature are Charles' Law and Boyle's Law. It's my understanding that if any gas (not just hydrogen or helium) expands it gains heat.
So all that huge equipment footprint and giant island pump just for one filling point? Imagine how large a 12 filling point station would be compared to a gas station with underground tanks and much smaller pumps. Edit: I see that there are two pumps at the end. Still a lot of real estate.
Once they have hydrogen stations across to Las Vegas, hydrogen cars will get a boost of sales but I also feel that there needs to be more hydrogen SUVs/Crossovers. Electric cars should be more sedans/hatchbacks.
I use this fuel all the time at work for the equipment. Everything runs on hydrogen and we have 5 stations to fill up.
Reminds me of the lng fleet vehicles. Perhaps for in town delivery fleets with a dedicated filling station would work nice.
And hydrogen stations in the town? Not in my town, surely not! Have you seen what a hydrgen station does when it burns? No? Because it burns invisible. And when one hydrogen station explodes? I don't want such a dangerous thing in my neighborhood!
I'm a big fan of hydrogen FCEVs, so this video was super cool. I think where efficiency counts is in the benefits to the drivers: fast refueling, lighter weight, which means more efficiency, fill all the way up with no degradation worries, and it functions just as well in cold weather as normal weather. Just need that infrastructure. Yes, I'd like to see more reviews of hydrogen FCEVs! Thanks!
"Efficiency"?
Like using 3 times the grid energy to release the hydrogen?
Even if they give it away now, who do you think will pay for ALL of that extra energy in the future?
(Clue...... The driver!)
You fell for the hype.
Ok I see why you are a fan because you don't seem to even understand how they work. It is way less efficient than an EV. It is not lighter weight. Compared to a Tesla Model 3 which has more storage space, more interior space, does 0-60 in less than 4 seconds vs 9 seconds and weights the exact same as the mirai. An FCEV has serious degradation issues. It has a lithium battery in it but that is the least of the worries. The fuel cell has degradation issues and typically needs to be replaced within 150,000 miles, the 10,000 PSI storage tanks have embrittlement issue and have to be checked often. In cold weather they are very hard to fuel as they get stuck to the fueling port and they do lose range in colder weather.
You need to get better informed than that.
when you pressurize a vessel you are "charging" it. Whereas a conventional car while air tight is usually kept at ATM pressure (exceptions being things like the Volt).
Might work for a fleet of trucks where you could have a central fueling station for all of them. Just make most base EVs using LFP.===no nickel or cobalt.
It's actually worse for trucks!why?
It uses 3-4 times the energy as straight EV.
That energy WILL be paid for by the end user.
In an industry where pennies count, that's not sensible.
.
Since trucks use MORE energy, that makes it even worse.
Mansfield, MA has both a hydrogen station and a Supercharger. I have never seen a car at the hydrogen station. Thanks for the info.
Great video thanks. Maybe see if you can try the Riversimple Rasa in the U.K. green renewable hydrogen has its place. In the U.K. we have ITM Motive hydrogen refuelling stations at some Shell gas stations, but we need way more.
No one should be expected to pay that much for a novelty 150HP car that can't fill up everywhere, keeps you locked in to the petrol industry and actually costs more to fill up than an EV to charge. it's a complete rip-off. There's absolutely NO point in going hydrogen.
I checked hydrogen in the UK and most chargers are only good to deliver 80kg/day with a couple at 270kg/day! We only have 8 stations for the whole country. I'll stay with a BEV for now...
Not worth the effort if it's still truck delivers H2 tank on every fueling station
Better get that 200mile+ BEV on similar pricing and charge at home(or use free charging credit that might available)
Without an industrywide commitment from the entire auto industry, the hydrogen infrastructure will never fully develop.
The UK seems to be pushing EV's, I personally got excited about five years ago with a visit to a hydrogen site at Swindon. Maybe we will have to wait in the UK. Looking forward to hydrogen!
SAME
The 2nd gen Mirai is very nice, really wish Toyota went BEV with it.
Hydrogen is actually an indirect GHG. It interacts with methane, making it breakdown much more slowly. This of course only comes from hydrogen leaks, but its such a small molecule that no matter how well sealed up the tank is, it will always slowly leak out. This is all very new research, but it is worth reading about. It means that even if produced cleanly, hydrogen will still contribute to climate change by extending the lifetime of methane (A very potent GHG).
EV advantage is still huge for me, mainly because the gas station is at my house. I'm glad you showed this though it was very interesting!
What is the advantage.? We still make our electricity from fossil fuels. The batteries produce heat.
well I have solar panels on my house
That is great. Is there a cost for the solar? Here most systems have storage batteries, and a charging station......Things that make me hesitate are all financial, for example, the disposal of the batteries, any extra cost to re-roof your house. I also wonder about contractual relationship on who owns the roof for resale? Thanks for being responsible. @@selbyjohnson5986
Just so you know, 10k psi is actually very dangerous. If anything in that connection broke or flew off, under pressure, particles would be flying at over 1000 fps, which is enough velocity to kill a large mammal. High powered air rifles use tanks with 4k psi, and have enough power to kill wild pigs and other large game.
it has dual lock mechnism and full fill only
Hydrogen pipelines, tanks, and station like in europe, have blown.
@@chrisw443 false
Kyle's unflappable surprise that HFCEVs congregate at HFCEV charging stations. In Japan, I hope there's an in-depth RUclips H2 car reviewer visiting an EV charging station for the first time and getting excited about every EV that shows up.
cool video, looks interesting but pricey
At this stage of its development I'm inclined to agree it is a better solution for trucks, trains and ships. I think trains are especially well suited, as they can add as many hydrogen tanker cars as are needed to complete the journey, so the number of fueling stations needed is quite small. Long haul trucking will have to wait until all, or most, of the truck stops have hydrogen, so a bit of a chicken and egg situation. But short haul trucking should be doable fairly quickly. It will be interesting to see if the cost of hydrogen goes down over time. I think that will be critical to its survival. It is a new technology, so I have to assume there will be lots of improvements made, over time.
Love the content, would you be able to change Audio recording from stereo to mono because it’s weird to hear you from one side only if you stand more to the left or right !!
This was very interesting to watch, thanks for this.
The things I see to go wrong with so many moving parts in the recharging are mostly technical. I also don't know how well this process would work in areas with severe winter temps. The hose was frozen and no longer flexible after the charge on a sunny 80 degree day. How would the guy behind you in zero degree weather get attached? Would it be safe to force the froze hose into place?
I like charging in my garage more and more.
What do you mean moving parts?
This comment section will serve as an epic time machine as batteries become denser and faster at charging while hydrogen becomes largely forgotten.
Big oil needs a replacement recurring revenue stream to transition too. EV's won't provide that. Hydrogen will. I strongly recommend you look at what the Saudi's are building at NEOM near the Gulf of Aqaba. The Hydrogen Council members are also on board. There is a lot going on outside of the USA that doesn't get air time. Also there is a distinct city bias to all EV articles. SUNCOR just sold their wind and solar assets to completely shift to hydrogen, They own PetroCanada, the largest retail fuel network in Canada, a country that gets 6 hours of sunlight in the dead of winter and battery performance degrades miserably. No one hasfigured that out and Canada is not the only country with that problem.
Asian car companies, like , Great Wall Motors, who are targeting Volkswagen's market share, not the big three US makers, are heavily investing in hydrogen, It is the most politically neutral fuel on the planet as everyone has the capapbility to eventually produce it and deploy it. Africa will use it, India will use it. It's coming.
Marine engines, off road engines, regional power grids, long range trucks all use hydrogen now.
EV's will always exist, the guy in the video has it right about range.
Very cool. I also wondered more about Hydrogen fueling. It was all the rage about 10 yers ago (when I was in college). I compared the hydrogen cars with electric cars and found the same problem you did; the infrastructure was not there and the cost per refueling was quite a bit more (about 3-5 times that of an electric refuel at the time). So, I went electric!
The "KISS" principle!
Well done!
I’d definitely like to see you create more content. As the infrastructure for OTR haulers is created I think there’s a market for large SUVs and pickup trucks to go hydrogen. Especially if the design of a model isn’t that different between a hydrogen powered EV and a regular EV.
I try to remain agnostic about the technology, and think this car is pretty cool, but after taking a look at the per-car subsidies and per-station subsidies, I really don't think this is a very scalable technology, at least not in the sector of personal vehicles. In fairness, battery-electric cars certainly do their fair share of leaning on subsidies, but in areas with "higher than zero" hydrogen vehicle uptake (cali, korea, japan) the level of subsidization given for individual cars, as well as the fueling infrastructure really dwarfs BEV subsidies. It's one of those instances where you have to stand back and figure out if these subsidies are really all that effective, because BEVs have absolutely exploded in popularity and are probably set to dominate new cars sales this decade, but HFCVs have been taking in huge subsidies for over a decade, and the uptake rate has barely moved. Hydrogen filling stations have absorbed hundreds of millions in subsidies, but there's still only about 50 stations in cali, and none beyond the border. Why should a less effective and less popular technology be given more subsidization? I'd like to give the technology the benefit of the doubt, but it's really just looking like an endless "just 10 years away!" sort of money-pit.
Kyle, it's always fun watching you fueling around.
12:36 That was super easy... I gotta say I'm really honestly impressed with how simple that is...how nice and quick
Wow, you tried so hard to come up with something positive to say. But we can all see how complicated and nerve wrecking the process is, not to even mention how expensive it is.
Don't forget he got lucky, there was actual hydrogen there. Many california cities like Sacramento are without for months.
True Zero is now $36/kg in late 2023…and climbing. A less than ideal infrastructure and pricing situation. That said, hydrogen is cool tech. Honda’s upcoming plug-in FCEV CR-V will be interesting to watch, especially because it will reduce need to fill up and alllow for charging at home and elsewhere. Conversely, EV charging stations in 2023 still suffer from breaking for various reasons and gas cars parking in their spots. Alternative transportation is a bumpy road.
Love the idea of hydrogen however in it's current state I wonder how the process may be hindered by colder ambient temperatures. If the nozzle on the car is at colder temperatures than a LA station in April could uncoupling be a issue? Not sure it works so well in Chicago in February. Happy to be proved wrong though.
TFL has that happen to them when they did a Marai promo tour. Long lineups at their station and then this issue. It's an interesting technology but ultimately a failure. The only use for it is the emissions which makes it a solely L.A. vehicle.
Because of the scene cut we weren't able to see the length of time it took from start to around 3 kg of H2 pumped. It was about 4 minutes from when plugged in to the cut in the scene where it then jumps to when the pump had stopped at half a tank. How long actually was it?
Don’t forget, when the car was invented in the 19th Century, you had to buy your petroleum or gasoline from the Chemist, Apothecary or Drug Store depending upon where you lived. Also isn’t the technology a Hydrogen Fuel Cell so it should be a fuel station or high pressure liquified gas station.
No. Just no.
Look for the issues on the hydrogen refilling stations on Norway.
@@xavierStark84 As Hydrogen pumps have leak monitoring, you could always have car wash type sheds for 5 cars to keep them out of the elements and prevent freezing issues. With so few stations, everyone is likely to fill up so take the maximum 5 -7 minutes required.
How many miles is ranged per kilograms ? For the $41 (half a tank) do you get ?
I liked your comment on the intro of why not just store the electricity. Your answer was batteries are intensive and heavy. That car lists as 4255 lbs 182 hp 76 mpg max. It seams a model 3 is lighter, more powerful and more efficient even the heaviest variant is close in weight.. It is hard to ignore the complexity of building a fuel cell system into the car with all it associated supporting pieces. I am not sure the lack of a battery and its replacement by many other things is a positive? This would be interesting to objectively compare. It looks like that has a small lithium battery on top of it so it is still a form or a PHEV? To complicated! I had a Volt. Great car, to complicated! Would be cool to see a head to head comparison of env impact of it though.
The 3 also has double the luggage capacity (no tanks!)
Don’t forget , these cars also have a battery similar to a gas hybrid, so all the anti EV trolls should remember that.
Yes the fuel cell is only a range extender.
Yes it is just an EV that uses hydrogen to generate electricity for the battery that drives the car. It is an EV, on a horribly unreliable fuel source. Honestly PHEV's are far better for an option if people have that I gotta drive 5 million miles at 120 mph. thing. lol
@@wolfgangpreier9160
Not really... its small battery used for Surge power and a place to put regen energy.
The capacity is 1.2Kw.. about the same as a Prius.
You would not use the term range extender with a Prius.. same here.. Just a fuel cell instead of combustion engine.. A Chevy VOLT.. or BMW i3 REX.. is a Range extended EV.
This is not.. its a mild hybrid with a different primary energy source.
@@kens97sto171 And it has a Nickel Metall Hydride battery. Even worse than i thought. What a mess! The hyundai Nexo is not any better. Heavy, cumbersome, slow, expensive. And the Citroen E-Jumpy with hydrogen fuel cell has 45kW system power. WoW...
In a more humid climate would the black hose part collect condensation.?
You use energy to make hydrogen then in some cases use more energy to transport the hydrogen and store and dispense. Then the car uses the hydrogen to convert it back to electricity doesn't seem very efficient.
It's not, and the end user WILL pay for all the energy.
So how long did the half-tank fill-up take?
I have filled up at hydrogen refueling station somewhere north of 400 times myself. Nothing special about it.
I have a first generation Mirai which will be 6 years old this June. I have 70k miles on it and it has lost 0% range, and I have never had a single issue with the vehicle.
What IS the expected life of the fuel cell?
(As I understand, about 150-200k?)
@@rogerstarkey5390one owner I know had 210,000 miles on his and the fuel cell was still fine.
@@homomorphic are you aware that 96% of hydrogen is got from fossil fuels? Or does that just skip your mind?
So you paid $60,000 for a car that accelerate just as slow as a Prius at 9 second to get to 60mph. Has a horrible rating on just about every site. KBB for example is 2.5 stars out of 5 with only 30% recommending it. That has less interior room than a Camry. That costs $80 to fill up even when gas was cheap. Have to deal with never leaving the state of California or even being able to go to certain parts of California. Then have to deal with unreliable and very few places to fuel and if someone fuels ahead of you then you have to sit and wait while the pumps get the pressure back up or you get less than a full tank. Oh and while prices for used cars are skyrocketing the resale value of your Mirai is between $6,000 to $9,000. I also don't believe that you haven't had any issues as you would be the first in the history of that car.
@@Aircam73 It also is quieter than any BEV on the freeway, has a better sound system than the polestar 2 and has cost me 4.5 cents per mile over 70k miles.
I do not have to wait when the vehicle in front fills up, in fact, I regularly fill with 2 other vehicles fueling at the same time and we all add 100kWh in less than 5 minutes (a charge rate of 2,800kW for all 3 vehicles).
Oh, and the total cost for my Mirai was $20,000 after credits and rebates. My polestar 2 cost 2x that after credits and rebates.
Hi what kind of maintenance do you need to do for this car.
Insane tank and operating pressures with hydrogen. Not much air gets in and ya got a Hindenburg on wheels. Best to generate electricity with the hydrogen and run an EV.
You said you are “not an EV guy” but you focus on EV on your channel and thats why I watch. I have no interest in ICE and you geek out on EV tech which is fantastic.
So the question is really: people always say charging an EV is so complicated. Is that really easier? Isn't pulling up at an EA station, plugging in and swiping a credit card just as easy? You don't HAVE to use the app.
True for EA... Chargepoint and EVgo require an RFID card (or phone) to start them. Home charging is easy for those who can... and, I'm guessing apartment dwellers will soon find they can charge where they park as well.
Using the EA app is easier, and far more reliable, than using a credit card, once you have completed the one time setup process. With Apple CarPlay it’s even easier to press the start charging button on the car infotainment screen, and of course once plug and charge is ubiquitous even that step will be eliminated. Then people will be asking why they have to use their credit card at gas pimps instead of just inserting the nozzle and filling the tank.
thanks kyle, spyospanopoulos (sp automotive) just wants to know the friendliest hydrogen filling connector ... which one do you recommend most?
With this method you need a lot of infrastructure.
1. Hydrogen creation, Facilities that make the Hydrogen. Local or not... most likely not local.
2. Hydrogen transportation to the fill station. Trucks on the road delivering Hydrogen to fill stations. Trucks using gas to deliver Hydrogen. Adding congestion to the roads.
3. Fill stations. Chevron, Mobil, etc...
With Electric cars most folks can fill up at home (super convenient), or use a much less complex fill station.
I don't see this as a good alternative. It would be nice to get the "fuel" trucks off the road.
You're just using Hydrogen to make electricity... I'd rather invest in Solar/Wind/Nuclear to create the sustainable energy we need for electric vehicles.
What about nuclear? Works regardless of the weather conditions.
@@davva360 Yep. I included it. I think you need a mix.
@@sinclabs Me too, Problem with wind and solar is they are not reliable. So you need to build in a lot of redundancy. Nuclear can provide a solid base to work from, with wind and solar supplementing it .
@@davva360 Agree 100%. :-}
Could you see if the hydrogen car is safe enough by running into something without it exploding. If you survive would love for a review about it ;)
I agree btw with it being called a Fueling station over Charging Station.
10:28 Can you hear me now? KAABLAAAAMMMM!!!!! Jerry? Jerry? Are you still there?
I'd be very interested in a comparison of weight between H2 and batteries. Obviously, it's not so much the H2 as the tank and the fuel cells. Also: What about power vs energy for fuel cell cars? With batteries, power density and energy density seem to track quite closely for all popular battery types, but for H2 it could be another matter. And finally: How responsive is a car with fuel cells? Do you need batteries to get instant power? If so, that could be a real show-stopper, as enough batteries for that much instant power would essentially give you the range as well, making the H2 part pointless.
Fascinating!
I would think Unicorn Farts would be terrible for the environment! 😂
as seems hydrogen will be for heavy duty pick up trucks and that’s pretty good. just need to be on truck stops and go! hope gas and diesel soon will be only for sports and for small numbers of transportation!
$13 per kg is actually super cheap. It’s like $38/kg now
All right San Diego!!
In San Diego I think there’s only like two fueling stations🫠
Hydrogen will make total sense for heavy good vehicles, trains, planes etc. For consumer vehicles battery will always be the right choice.
Exactly how long did it take from scanning your credit card to getting your receipt?
More like (real world) "how long to locate a station, drive there, scan the card, fill up AND get the receipt"?
Please note these things are dirt cheap used because of availability of hydrogen stations.
What I would have liked to see is:
1) what is the temperature at the nozzle relative to external temps during summer or typical winter (ie ~ _10C). Does the nozzle stick on a cold humid day?
2) how much space is lost due to these large tanks?
3) how noisy is the car when accelerating on on-ramps or lane passing?
4) how often do filters have to be changed?this works on O2 only… what about hot, humid polluted air?
5) does this even matter now that China is assuring an ever increasing number of battery swaps stations are available (much quicker to install and maintain)?
And what is the life of the fuel cell?
(As I understand, about 150-200,000 miles, so less than a battery)
for the most part, why do Hydrogen cars have the coolest interiors?
All of this new technology is kinda exciting, I'm interested in seeing how long batteries will last, I saw a video where a guy took in a Tesla model 3 and they said he needed to replace the batteries...and it was to the tune of $16,000. And saw a video of an older Tesla model S that needed battery replacement and it was going to cost $22,000. Hydrogen isn't here for me yet, we live in the midwest, so I guess I'll just keep watching and see how things go.
There's a lot of FUD involved in those 'hey sucker it costs 22k to replace your battery" claims.
There is a presumption being made that because it happened to one person it will happen to all.
The reality is if you make enough of a thing it will have the occasional premature failures, occasional examples that far surpass typical life expectancy, and then a whole bunch that fail within an expected EOL. That is the nature of all products.
Really though, there are good reasons to expect most Tesla vehicles to last 300k+ miles, especially if you are the sort who drives 25-50k miles a year.
I suspect that in the next 3 to 6 years once the failure rate becomes more well established the rate of failures will be so low that very cheap insurance will be available to protect a user who loses the 'battery lottery' and gets a dud that fails outside of warranty but before a realistic EOL.
So how long does a fuel cell last?
There is a new way to store hydrogen into tape/cartridge. If that works, fuel cell may shouldn't feasible.
What city was this located in? Thx.
I'll have to google how that hydrogen turns the wheels of the car.........lol.......Nice video, first time I have seen that done.
Fuel cells generate electricity for motors and water exhaust through in-car combination with oxygen from the air.
@@JonathanEzor I read about it. Sounds real interesting but the infrastructure and cost of cars must make it cost prohibitive. Mabey ok for big cities though.
I want to know the purpose of dust caps in hydrogen vehicles?
This will be fun in the winter lol
Beautiful car. But the cost and limited stations is a deal breaker.
Yes with hydrogen you literally have a 'GAS' station. And you fill up the same way as other fuels so if people want to have a similar experience to owning a gasoline/petrol car then hydrogen may be a good alternative.
Only higher cost and less variability, there are only 2 cars on the market. And hydrogen production costs around 15 US$ for 1 kg in reality.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 Agreed the only way it's viable is if you could have some kind of home fueling station powered by electricity with water electrolysis.
Note that hydrogen fuel cell cars also have large batteries, with all their issues.
Dude, it IS an EV. Just not a Battery EV. Storage is in gaseous form, and instead of a battery charger, you have a fuel cell to generate VA to drive motors and stuff.
H2 has a distribution issue, like first ever BEV charging stations. Chicken-or-the-egg.
It is an EV, yes. That's one of the reasons I'm very interested in it. It's a different type of EV than BEV.
Please let us know if we can move to Las Vegas with Mirai.THANKS,bless you