About your comment regarding 8m² wings at 32:20... If you got 15kts of wind and still struggle to get up, then I agree you need to work on your technique and a bigger wing is not the way to go. That said, I bought a F-One 8m² CWC earlier this year to complement my 5.5² and 4.5m² wings and I love it! I prefer flat water over big waves (because I'm not that good) and the 8m allows me to go foiling in light winds that no amount of (me) pumping the 5.5 would get me going in. More time on the water in conditions I enjoy! Great video, I learnt a lot!
Hi Johan, glad you enjoyed this video, it was really interesting to research and put together. Great to hear your feedback on the 8m F-One you have. What type of wind speed do you use this in? I would also be interested to know what foil you use this wing with :) Cheers, Will
@@SUPboardermag My foil is a 2000cm² Fanatic on a 105l board. 10 kts measured wind on the beach and I cruise easily. Less than that takes a fair bit of pumping, but stays up once on the foil. And yes, my large foil helps too. :)
Great analysis and I'm most appreciative. Neil Pryde had a great line many moons ago. They suggested "it doesn't matter how you rig it, so long as you rig it right".
Fantastic video! I was captivated by the practical science of my latest obsession! Fascinating discussion with some really useful insight. Thanks very much for this. I could see similar "tradeoff" videos in future for foil boards and foils - if you haven't already done so. You SUPboarder folks do a great job!
Great video!!! Looks that 2023 wings are more windsurf oriented and heavier with handles, booms, and material..The units and mantis V3 are around 25% heavier than the F-one strike V2, thats 500 grams for a 5.0m and without leash....keep doing these videos love them!!
Hi Daniel, thanks for your feedback. Yes, certainly more of a trend towards rigid handle systems.... I think its a natural progression as people look for more direct control of their wings...but the weight increase is the drawback for sure!! Cheers, Will
I have a Duotone Unit, Airush, and F one wings. The Unit, as described, is tight and direct. It is unforgiving in gusty conditions. The handles allow more feathering of the wing. Soft handles would make it more difficult. The power is like a sports car. The Airush and F one are less tight, have a lot of low end grunt and a great deal easier in gusty conditions. One take away from the video is I might detune the Unit with less psi. And, I would like you to say more on sheeting angle.
I use the Smik Wing v2 and now v4. This wing is very tight and light. According to the analysis in this video it should not perform well wave riding, but it’s the best in waves and has a huge range!
We have used the Version 1 design of that wing and it is outstanding and was very good in the waves. Of course there are so many other things which come into play which can change the feel of a wing when in the waves. But we are glad that you are really loving this wing and we look forward to getting on one soon also.
I predict that racers are going to go back to the origins of this sport to get the most speed. non inflatable wings (KiteWing is the brand) The KiteWing was made for skiing, but it has more potential for higher top end performance. It's like comparing paragliding to hang gliding. Hang gliders have a far more rigid wing, higher glide ratio, and better performance in every way, except convenience.
Yes, a totally legit prediction I would say. Twin skin is already being explored by Gong, PPC and others and also seeing some exciting things coming from Ozone with their fusion. Its going to be interesting - super exciting to be observing the evolution of this crazy new sport! Cheers for commenting - Will - SUPboarder
I wonder if they should say you have to use both fin and foil over the event so you have to score with both to count, no order of use or amount of each just to shake it up.
@@SUPboardermag Hi not surprised you have no idea what I am on about 😀. I think what happened was I watched a video then went to comment on it but your video was queued up ready to watch next so I have commented on yours. Apologies please ignore .
Why not take out LEI and just make it all rigid, adjustable like a wind surf? For safety they can add inflation pieces to if needed. They use them now for ice sailing on skates or skis.
Does a tight canopy tend to have narrower sheeting-in range and tendency to backwind easier? I bought 2 wings 1.2m apart, and the smaller one with the tighter canopy has close to similar power but it definitely backwinds easier and its very touchy sheeting in
I think a tight canopy would cause this draw back yes. Its not so much that these wings have a narrower sheeting angle, more that the tight canopy vs. loose makes you feel the effect of incorrect sheeting angle. Certainly the smaller the wing gets the more 'twitchy' it gets to sheeting angle. This is the same on windsurf sails, kites too. Boom or rigid handles I think gos some way to make sheeting more precise so they re perhaps a good way of mitigating the tradeoff. What wings do you have?
what wing is best for very light wind grunt to get up on foil? From the video, I heard two things. 1) Tight canopy 2) Big leading edge. Is this correct? Can you recommend models that give one maximum grunt?
Yes, but also canopy and leading edge material will help give and transfer power easier. Sweep and therefore wingspan will also give the rider a better ability to pump. Handle configuration will also help pumping ability. It comes down to many things! A powerful wing would likely be a slower wing I think.
I wonder if North is contemplating making kites with that seamless tech they've recently introduced to windsurfing sails. It's been tested in yachts for quite a while and it's very light, stiff and strong.
I really like your videos. Is there a chance you could get your voice volume up. When I play other vidoes, on different channels my volume is fine. Your intro has a nice volume, but your your voice comes on I have to raise volume.
Great video. Just a thought about canopy. English is my second language and I even as an experienced sailor I havn't got clue what your talking about. You never show what you mean. It's probably simple but...
Hey, thanks for the feedback. We talk a lot about the tension in the canopy here, and talking about how the ammount of tension in it relates to the stability and power of the wing. If you compare it to sailing, its a bit like comparing a Dacron 'soft' sail' to a laminate sail cloth that is stiffer and produces more power. Or a fully battened sail compared to a non battened sail. I hope that helps a little, let me know if we can explain it more for you. Cheers, Will
Surely, the fastest wings in future won't use inflatable leading edges at all. Carbon of the same diameter as windsurfing masts will only be a few grams more. In the early 80s there was an early winging sail that used aluminium masts. It never caught on. At all. Think it had zero dihedral and little sweep and hit the wayer on a regular basis. I had the brochure for it somewhere. Winging was invented many, many years ago! Somebody brought old, rejected windsurfing tech, tweaked ot a bit with inflatable leading edge, and brought it together with foil boards.
I think you are right. We will see a move to a rigid frame with some sort of foam added to provide bouyancy. That foam could be shaped to provide a more efficient cross section. A circular cross section creates a lot of drag. We may even see a wing with two skins. I remember a windsurf sail was constructed that had two skins. It made for a more efficient sail, but it added weight. Obviously if you are going to falling onto your wing regularly then an inflatable construction is going to be more forgiving. Somewhere on youtube there is a video of Kai Lenny speed winging with a rigid frame wing.
@@daleunderwood3158 Saw a guy using a prototype wing with double "skins", as you put it, in the Gorge last week, it had ram air like vents, and a bit smaller air filled leading edge than most wings. Seemed super efficient, but of course the rider was pro level winger, so hard to really know.
This old tech you're talking about is WindSkate sails, right? That still exists, these are still being made and sold online. Two kinds: a windsurf-sail-like thing for mountain boards and a handheld Oceanic Lateen sail for rollerblading. I hear that the land speed record with one of there is around 90 kph
I still don't get why wings aren't made like a crossbow With fabric and no plow-up bits. Plenty of kites don't have bladders. Sailboard sails don't have bladders either.
@@SUPboardermag Hi Will, I now have all of the gear for wing foiling. I see Drake in your videos and wondered where you would recommend a novice to put in the water? (Other than the Embankment). I gather between 14 to 20 mph winds are best for learning? Regards, and many thanks, Andy
@@Andyman66 Embankment is a good spot, you might also be able to try at Mount nation in the Sound side however, this is still the ocean so comes with risks. Local lakes might be worth a look - Siblyback, Stithians and Roadford all have great Winging communities ! Cheers, Will
About your comment regarding 8m² wings at 32:20... If you got 15kts of wind and still struggle to get up, then I agree you need to work on your technique and a bigger wing is not the way to go. That said, I bought a F-One 8m² CWC earlier this year to complement my 5.5² and 4.5m² wings and I love it! I prefer flat water over big waves (because I'm not that good) and the 8m allows me to go foiling in light winds that no amount of (me) pumping the 5.5 would get me going in. More time on the water in conditions I enjoy!
Great video, I learnt a lot!
Hi Johan, glad you enjoyed this video, it was really interesting to research and put together. Great to hear your feedback on the 8m F-One you have. What type of wind speed do you use this in? I would also be interested to know what foil you use this wing with :) Cheers, Will
@@SUPboardermag My foil is a 2000cm² Fanatic on a 105l board. 10 kts measured wind on the beach and I cruise easily. Less than that takes a fair bit of pumping, but stays up once on the foil. And yes, my large foil helps too. :)
I’m going to rely on the Naish Matador 5.0 S26 at 91k and a 8’ x21” 127 liter DW with 1800 MA 6.4AR foil. Geeky yes but that’s that
One of the best video I have seen ever in RUclips of WingFoil. Fantastic video!
Thanks, this is nice to read. Happy winging Reuben
I really enjoed this video, congratulation!
By far one of the most complete and interesting on this topic...Greetings from Italy :)
Thanks for your feedback - it was an interesting video to research and pull together as well - glad you liked it. Will / SUPboarder
Guys, this is just gold for the brain! Thanks a lot!
Great to hear
Great analysis and I'm most appreciative. Neil Pryde had a great line many moons ago. They suggested "it doesn't matter how you rig it, so long as you rig it right".
Haha, so true. Thanks for the comment. beau
Best video I’ve seen on this topic - thanks!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for the comment. Beau
Fantastic video! I was captivated by the practical science of my latest obsession! Fascinating discussion with some really useful insight. Thanks very much for this. I could see similar "tradeoff" videos in future for foil boards and foils - if you haven't already done so. You SUPboarder folks do a great job!
Glad you enjoyed it! I think we have already got some more feature ideas coming soon. Happy foiling Reuben
Wonderful geeky wing foil information. Thank you so much!
You are so welcome!
Great video!!! Looks that 2023 wings are more windsurf oriented and heavier with handles, booms, and material..The units and mantis V3 are around 25% heavier than the F-one strike V2, thats 500 grams for a 5.0m and without leash....keep doing these videos love them!!
Hi Daniel, thanks for your feedback. Yes, certainly more of a trend towards rigid handle systems.... I think its a natural progression as people look for more direct control of their wings...but the weight increase is the drawback for sure!! Cheers, Will
Superb Video, many thanks!
Glad you liked it! Thanks, Beau
I have a Duotone Unit, Airush, and F one wings. The Unit, as described, is tight and direct. It is unforgiving in gusty conditions. The handles allow more feathering of the wing. Soft handles would make it more difficult. The power is like a sports car. The Airush and F one are less tight, have a lot of low end grunt and a great deal easier in gusty conditions. One take away from the video is I might detune the Unit with less psi. And, I would like you to say more on sheeting angle.
Thanks for your fab comment Jimmyb.
I use the Smik Wing v2 and now v4. This wing is very tight and light. According to the analysis in this video it should not perform well wave riding, but it’s the best in waves and has a huge range!
We have used the Version 1 design of that wing and it is outstanding and was very good in the waves.
Of course there are so many other things which come into play which can change the feel of a wing when in the waves.
But we are glad that you are really loving this wing and we look forward to getting on one soon also.
I predict that racers are going to go back to the origins of this sport to get the most speed.
non inflatable wings (KiteWing is the brand)
The KiteWing was made for skiing, but it has more potential for higher top end performance.
It's like comparing paragliding to hang gliding. Hang gliders have a far more rigid wing, higher glide ratio, and better performance in every way, except convenience.
Yes, a totally legit prediction I would say. Twin skin is already being explored by Gong, PPC and others and also seeing some exciting things coming from Ozone with their fusion. Its going to be interesting - super exciting to be observing the evolution of this crazy new sport! Cheers for commenting - Will - SUPboarder
I'm surprised we haven't seen a very narrow leading edge with battens running from wingtip to wingtip to give the stiffness.
Yes, good comment. we did see some brands do this very very early on. But I think we may see it again soon . thanks Reuben
I wonder if they should say you have to use both fin and foil over the event so you have to score with both to count, no order of use or amount of each just to shake it up.
Hi, Im not sure what you mean? Can you explain a little more. Thanks Reuben
@@SUPboardermag Hi not surprised you have no idea what I am on about 😀. I think what happened was I watched a video then went to comment on it but your video was queued up ready to watch next so I have commented on yours. Apologies please ignore .
Why not take out LEI and just make it all rigid, adjustable like a wind surf? For safety they can add inflation pieces to if needed. They use them now for ice sailing on skates or skis.
very good point. I sure we will see something like this soon. thanks reuben
Does a tight canopy tend to have narrower sheeting-in range and tendency to backwind easier? I bought 2 wings 1.2m apart, and the smaller one with the tighter canopy has close to similar power but it definitely backwinds easier and its very touchy sheeting in
I think a tight canopy would cause this draw back yes. Its not so much that these wings have a narrower sheeting angle, more that the tight canopy vs. loose makes you feel the effect of incorrect sheeting angle. Certainly the smaller the wing gets the more 'twitchy' it gets to sheeting angle. This is the same on windsurf sails, kites too. Boom or rigid handles I think gos some way to make sheeting more precise so they re perhaps a good way of mitigating the tradeoff. What wings do you have?
Great video!!
Thanks!
what wing is best for very light wind grunt to get up on foil? From the video, I heard two things. 1) Tight canopy 2) Big leading edge. Is this correct? Can you recommend models that give one maximum grunt?
Yes, but also canopy and leading edge material will help give and transfer power easier. Sweep and therefore wingspan will also give the rider a better ability to pump. Handle configuration will also help pumping ability. It comes down to many things! A powerful wing would likely be a slower wing I think.
“Factorial Design” is the technique of changing multiple variables simultaneously and determining the response.
Very insightful! We didn't know that. Thanks for sharing.
Probably the use of Factorial Design and QFD (quality function deployment) would give you a great tool for what you're trying to do. @@SUPboardermag
I maybe in the minority here, just love cruising in light wind. Some of these new wings sound perfect!
Something I love doing as well Dave - I think a powerful wing, with tight canopy will make this side of the sport more accessible. Will
I wonder if North is contemplating making kites with that seamless tech they've recently introduced to windsurfing sails. It's been tested in yachts for quite a while and it's very light, stiff and strong.
Yeah I think it will be going that way for sure. Thanks Reuben
Great video !
Thank you Fran
@@SUPboardermag the next challenge might be your deep dive into the foils
Absolutely - already got my head into it! Will - SUPboarder
I really like your videos. Is there a chance you could get your voice volume up. When I play other vidoes, on different channels my volume is fine. Your intro has a nice volume, but your your voice comes on I have to raise volume.
Thank you very much for the feedback. I will make sure to highlight this with the team so we can improve our audio in the videos. Thanks, Beau
Great video.
Just a thought about canopy. English is my second language and I even as an experienced sailor I havn't got clue what your talking about. You never show what you mean. It's probably simple but...
Hey, thanks for the feedback. We talk a lot about the tension in the canopy here, and talking about how the ammount of tension in it relates to the stability and power of the wing. If you compare it to sailing, its a bit like comparing a Dacron 'soft' sail' to a laminate sail cloth that is stiffer and produces more power. Or a fully battened sail compared to a non battened sail. I hope that helps a little, let me know if we can explain it more for you. Cheers, Will
Thanks but I still dont understand what you mean by the canopy?
@@bjornalm9950 The sail part of the wing - the part that isnt the boom or the inflatable structure :)
@@SUPboardermag got it! Thanks👍
just great!!!!!
Thanks!
Surely, the fastest wings in future won't use inflatable leading edges at all. Carbon of the same diameter as windsurfing masts will only be a few grams more. In the early 80s there was an early winging sail that used aluminium masts. It never caught on. At all. Think it had zero dihedral and little sweep and hit the wayer on a regular basis. I had the brochure for it somewhere. Winging was invented many, many years ago! Somebody brought old, rejected windsurfing tech, tweaked ot a bit with inflatable leading edge, and brought it together with foil boards.
Yep I feel you could be right or a comb of the two. I remember that windsurfing wing thing, the one you could turn to fly like a wing! Thanks Reuben
I think you are right. We will see a move to a rigid frame with some sort of foam added to provide bouyancy. That foam could be shaped to provide a more efficient cross section. A circular cross section creates a lot of drag. We may even see a wing with two skins. I remember a windsurf sail was constructed that had two skins. It made for a more efficient sail, but it added weight. Obviously if you are going to falling onto your wing regularly then an inflatable construction is going to be more forgiving. Somewhere on youtube there is a video of Kai Lenny speed winging with a rigid frame wing.
@@daleunderwood3158 Saw a guy using a prototype wing with double "skins", as you put it, in the Gorge last week, it had ram air like vents, and a bit smaller air filled leading edge than most wings. Seemed super efficient, but of course the rider was pro level winger, so hard to really know.
This old tech you're talking about is WindSkate sails, right? That still exists, these are still being made and sold online. Two kinds: a windsurf-sail-like thing for mountain boards and a handheld Oceanic Lateen sail for rollerblading. I hear that the land speed record with one of there is around 90 kph
You guys need to get out more. More than half our crew ride dlabs in waves every day pretty much. From small to big waves. From 6.5m down to 3m.
Good to hear your crew are flying with the best gear. Happy winging Reuben
With my barracuda style 127 liter board and a MA1800, I’m going to run a 2.8 Gaastra Cross. Just a nudge to get on foil.
I still don't get why wings aren't made like a crossbow With fabric and no plow-up bits. Plenty of kites don't have bladders. Sailboard sails don't have bladders either.
Im sure there's still loads of development to come yet. Thanks Reuben
one comment, 'awesome, well done guys'.
Thanks Andy,
Good to get your feedback here - glad you enjoyed this video! Will - SUPboarder Team
@@SUPboardermag
Hi Will, I now have all of the gear for wing foiling. I see Drake in your videos and wondered where you would recommend a novice to put in the water? (Other than the Embankment). I gather between 14 to 20 mph winds are best for learning?
Regards, and many thanks, Andy
@@Andyman66 Embankment is a good spot, you might also be able to try at Mount nation in the Sound side however, this is still the ocean so comes with risks. Local lakes might be worth a look - Siblyback, Stithians and Roadford all have great Winging communities ! Cheers,
Will
@@SUPboardermag
Really appreciate that information. Thank you 👍
👍👍👍🥰🥰
Thank you!
Dungtone is definitely a cult brand.
They are pretty on it! Thanks Reuben