I am happy that you revisited this. The way you have it now is correct. And just a FYI the 56 and 57 use the same gear case all the parts are the same. In the future if you have any outboard questions I would be happy to answer them for you. 34 years as a outboard motor tech and member AOMCI.
I hate to tell you fellows your wrong but you are that’s the way they first were made but they quickly found that shifting between F&R caused the drive gear to either want to go up or down
I'm a 63 yr old retired Air Force, born and raised Minnesotan, but, retired in Wichita, KS. I've always loved these old motors, simple, primitive, but functional. I love your attitude of explore, instead of reading a manual. You make conclusions by observations. Watching your old outboard motor video's, just backs up my conclusions. There's not to many of us left, in this high tech world. Good Wrenching!!
Your integrity with your projects is of the quality that we should all aspire to. I was an Air Force aviation maintainer. I believe that qualifies me to say that your work ethic is awesome!
Thank you Darren for having the open-mindedness needed to come up with a solution for this. Being receptive to the viewers/commenters input, regarding an issue that you felt was suspect, shows positive character traits and reinforces to me, your outstanding skill set. Thank you for being you and letting us wrench with you! Chuck in Kansas
you could see what happened to the old inpeller, the shaft didnt raise at al, see the wheare marks on the old inpeller, the clip has to be in it. (oh , and working on these(and other) engines is my proffesion, so its from first hand, so not a cautch mecanic)
I believe someone commented the first video saying that the plate should be replaced together with the impeller. If that's true I guess you wouldn't really need the clip, the plate would survive the wear of the pin running on it long enough. The real issue with the old impeller was the incorrect diametre, at least that's my guess. OTOH the fact how uneven the wear on the old impeller was makes me feel better about it with the clip too.
Even though you didn't want to sell me this motor. I found an evinrude 9.9 that didn't run and using your methods, diagnosed and got it running perfect. Thanks Mustie1!
Wow,,,I read all the comments and 50% say with the clip and the other 50% say no. I think the person who put in the wrong impeller just lost the clip and it belonged there. After all---the was a place machined for it. Good job Mustie 1 for your being so observant to something so easily overlooked. PS---> I just love your videos ...Alex from the Cape
The factory has that grove in there for a reason. Impressive that you spent the time to investigate further and preform the best possible repair. Wouldn't it be great if everyone selling something cared about the person purchasing the item so much!
Love the Craftsman stool in the background. I gave my dad one when I was a kid around 30+ years ago. It survived for years and years until It was used to hold something while beating with a hammer. I was never able to find another. Ahh Memories....
My grand father had a boat shop in the fifties and we still have all the old micro films. Their was no clip. It was supposed to ride on the pin, when they first came out there was a clip but they learned with the torque caused by forward and reverse the drive gear would ride up and down. They learned because of this they had a high failure rate to the drive gear and the forward and reverse gears. The shaft is floating so there is no pressure on the pin that is why it’s a pin and not a key way so it can move. This was a service bulletin put out around September 18 1956. It took me over 30 hours digging through films to find the info hope it helps.
You post makes me wonder if somewhere along the lines, the driveshaft was changed out. Not uncommon when a short shaft engine was converted to a long shaft engine. Good info!!!
Thank You Anthony. From what I see with my 18hp, you are correct. (low hour all orginal motor in my family its entire life) I converted my 18hp from a short shaft to a long shaft so I have both of the driveshafts. Both the same except the long shaft is obviously longer.
And everyone. NEVER run an outboard out of water. Doing that will burn the impeller out almost immediately. Even for a couple of seconds. The water "lubricates" the impeller as well as cool the engine.
That is what I think also. I think the rubber impeller will get hot real fast without the water to keep it lubed and cool. Those things are off set so they will pump the water so half of the blades are bent in the housing.
Awesome videos, I got my 1977 F150 that I purchased 3 years ago and had sat for 13 before, also purchased a GX390 Honda pressure washer 4000 psi running again, great help.
Recent viewer and love what you are doing. Proper thinking about the mechanics and working it out, great stuff. Also, if evinrude introduced a spacer in the 57 onward, its safe to say they felt it was needed. Personally, I would rather have the pin at the impeller end close to the centre of the impeller as it is less likely to fail. 1957 engineering applied to 1956 outboard, brilliant 😀
Great video ! I was facing the same issue withe a Johnson QD-16 and just thought that someone had substituted the wrong drive shaft at one point. Well, I just fitted a snap ring in that pinion gear's inside groove and now the impeller pin rides just where it should. Thanks a zillion !
I'm with you...it just feels better that the clip is in place even if this year model didn't call for it. Oh yeah, when you first thought the spring clip wasn't right and you needed a "wire ring" type, I thought, "no prob, he'll make one" and you did of course. Great fun watching this one get re-tweaked, Mustie. Thanks!!
I would be proud to own this after such careful and considerate attention to detail. Whoever you pass it on to should know that you were a thoughtful and diligent custodian.
great repair mustie glad i could help and now that motor will run for many more years to come hope it will go to a good home and get a lot of use. Im happy to see you used the circlip that was correct for the groove in the gear in the end and realized that the shaft can indeed travel further towards the engine it is more than likely a bit of grit in the splines that prevented it from moving smoothly real good job THANKS FOR THE VIDEOS MUSTIE1
Hey Mustie. I agree with it needing a clip. I have worked on machinery since I was a pup and some had the ideal it would stay up while running. Things like shafts don't behave that way. gravity works the same for all things and the shaft is no different in this case. Love the videos. All my best Bobby
Bobby Tectalabyss torque of the motor does not allow the shaft to move vertical but there is not a issue if it does move. It’s supposed to have some play in it. The shaft will not slide out the bottom of the foot it only slides as far as the groves cut into it. It can’t drop down far enough to even hit the dog clutch anyways no matter what so there is nothing for it to hit.
Hi Mustie 1, I said that your vast experiece as a mechanic and comun sense, guides You to put all in the rigth way as is should. Awesome vid. Darren, thanks for share Your wisdom whit us. Greetings.
hey mustie I am from Scotland we call them circlips , lobes on the inside are internal and lobes on the outside are external, the circlip you fitted to your outboard forward/reverse shaft is an internal well done keep making the videos I am hooked.
I did this same job and a oversize piston job. As for the lower end oil. As you fill the lower end put the top screw in loose and air easily comes out oil not so when it leaks oil from the top loose screw it is full. I recall 90wt. Further, calcium builds in the water paths in the motor needs cleaning on a shop visit. Fond memories of my rebuild of my Evinrude.
I'm glad you went back in .. in the first video I was sure I saw the groove for the snap ring (and I think you were right to use it instead of the wire ring , with the groove having square cut) . One thing I've found , cross over years can be either or .. as in you can find (for example) a 56 running the 57 set up but you could also find a 57 running the 56 set up !! Personally I would have done the same as you have .. now the pin is running somewhere near the middle of the pump impeller and not riding on the wear plate , and I'd feel much happier about that (again that's just how I'd have done it) Thanks for the follow up video ...
You had the right idea something was missing you did right goes with the guts yeah there is metal rubbing on metal usually not a go you were smart putting impellar on the end now that made sense thanks Mustie good video
I've not looked up anything about this outboard nor have worked on outboards but to me from working on other mechanical things it looks like since the center rod has splines and the gear has inner for mating it appears that ring is suppose to like rest/sit on it not as support just to keep it the inner rod from going down more. Just my thought.
You made a fine replacement clip out of the spring, I'm sure that would have worked fine as well! Nice job and taking the time to open it up again, many wouldn't have.
Hey Mutsie with all the gear boxes i have worked on in my 40 years of experience is that with gears like that there needs to be a certain amount of preload to prevent the gear from floating on the companion gear and prevent wear. After you add gear oil to the formula you create even more pressure causing the gears wanting to separate. So dont be so obsessed with a slight interference because it in most cases needed. Good investigative work though. Appreciate your videos..
now we can clear this out of our head. haha. maybe it wasn''t ment to be in the 56 but this gear pinion did have the groove in it indeed. perhaps its some parts of 57 or later or perhaps half way the year 56 they started to use them. maybe even evinrude tought it was stupid this grinding pin on the plate. and they started to implement. the only thing we know is that this is the right sollution for the problem. also mustie wasn"t completely comfortable about the grinding dowelpin. now its positioned just right.
Hey mustie. I think that entire drive shaft and pinion gear needs to float up and down. I believe that's why the impeller's inside bushing is cut as if it excepts a key instead of a pin. The pin has the travel room up and down inside the bushing. Ya did a great job running through the fix. I liked the retaining ring idea. I was ready to grind a soft tapering into that shaft to assist in spreading the ring. All good stuff
Many years back a friend had a motor like that and noticed the same problem. He didn't like the thought of a snap ring in that end of the pinion gear because he felt it could come out and go through the gears. He wanted me to cut a snap ring groove on the upper end of the shaft so it couldn't drop farther into the gear. I thought a groove could cause a weak point in the shaft so I made a collar that was a couple of thousands smaller than the shaft and pressed it on.
Well if your friend said no clip is used.....not on the 56 year model....then isn't he a mechanic that you trust.But I did read that one guy said he rebuilt hundreds of these and said your friend doesn't know didly.....its a crap shoot.I was number 169 thumbs up Mustie.Just keep the vids comming
i personally have no idea what the answer is. i have run 54, 55, 57, 58 10 hps and had them all gone through. the answer is easily found though in a .PDF of the lower unit diagram that surely must be out there on i-boats or some other forum. or even available for cheap on ebay. if it was my motor and there was uncertainty i'd get that diagram and eliminate the uncertainty. that i know of, this lower unit did not change from 55-57. the housing changed in 54 but i don't know if the guts did. '58 was totally different housing again, may be differences. but these parts manuals are very common. i'd be shocked if you couldn't buy a download off of ebay of a .pdf for well under 10 bucks
I have all the manuals on these motors. I don't have time to scan all of them. Very little was changed on the 10hp motor gearcase during the mid 50's producation run . The 7.5hp motor used a two piece driveshaft, one upper, one lower. The lower driveshaft uses a shock absorbing spring to protect the outboard if the prop hits an object. The plate just below the water pump impeller is a wear item that is included in the OMC impeller kit. It should be replaced with the impeller. Unfortunately, I just sealed up a 56 10hp gearcase or I would could show all the parts of Mustie's gearcase. And yes, the old water pump impeller on Musties motor was the wrong one. Didn't fit the shaft, was too loose which caused the hub damage.
It's supposed to be a floating shaft, supported from the pinion with an circlip not from the water pump drive pin, glad to see it's put back together complete now
My guess is that all those old professionals who worked on these, probably forgot all about that clip and just naturally assumed the wear plate with the pin wearing into it was as designed (hence wear plate moniker). Great call and great finds from those who steered you in that direction.
Yeah that ring in that bottom gear didn't have that groove machined into it for nothing. Believe me you did it correct Mustie. It would of been a lot less expensive to machine that part without that ring groove. It was there for the intentions of having a retainer ring. Good Job Mustie1
Surely the action of the gears driving, would always drive the shaft upwards, pushing the pin off the plate when running. Just a thought. Fantastic videos. Thank you.
nodriveknowitall I take your point. Something must take the upward thrust of the gear. I don't think this would be the gear case, I might be wrong. If there is a shoulder on the shaft, this would lift the shaft just a few thou. That pin cannot have metal to metal contact on the plate and it must depend on the weight of the shaft being lifted of it, if only by a thou or two.
There has to be a clip of some sort in that groove for this theory to work. I see the thrust pad under the gear now so the gear and the clip work in unison, controlling the gears position, holding the pin off the plate. Thrust lifts the gear and the clip lifts the shaft. Very interesting.
there is a shaft bearing in the lower gearcase whit a shouder to catch the pignon gear so there is no upwarts thrust on the shaft, only the gear and the bronze bearing., the solution whit the clip is the correct one, you can also sholder the shaft whit a whelder to prevent the shaft going down to mutch and center the drive pin in the middle of the inpeller. the reason of the pin riding the wheare plate is to mutch play in the shaft and pignon gearwheel.
snap ring vs round retaining clip = a dead tie to me, I can see the potential in both. Thanks again for the invite , commentary, and scenic view - fist bumps from Oh10!!
Brilliant series of videos, love the snap ring solution too, makes me feel somewhat better about doing similar for a missing pair of gudgeon pin (wrist pin) clips on the engine of a freebie Honda 125 I have :D Also it may make you feel more comfortable about the longevity of your hand-fashioned clip when I tell you my ones have been great for over 6 months in much harsher conditions than yours will have to deal with. Cheers again for sharing with us.
FWIW, as soon as you put a load on those gears the shaft will be forced upwards and will not ride on the pin or the c-clip. The only time the shaft will rest on the pin or the clip is when the unit is in neutral or the engine is off. Thanks for all the great videos.
And what happens when you put it in reverse? Thrust is now in the opposite direction, pulling the pin down against the plate. As others have stated, that groove is there for a reason. Gear trains were all figured out a hundred years before this motor was designed and built.
The action on the shaft will be to push up under load. The action of the impeller is to push down under load. It will all balance out when it is working. Great call.
I'm not going to take a bow or anything but I did add a thumbs up to the guy that said to add the clip to keep it off the impeller wear plate :) In the real world, you are supposed to change the impeller yearly or so and that will make all of this a non issue. That said- most don't change the impeller ever so maybe this could help. Either way- Nice Job!!
To your second point, I was thinking the same thing the whole time. Impeller/plate ass'y is a regular maintenance item so it, to me , was a non-issue. But I still enjoyed the heck out of this series, as I do with most all of 'em. Mustie rocks, and there's alot of smart folks that check in here too. I've learned much here.
Dall Tex it’s not a yearly thing to change out the water pumps. If someone told you that it was a mechanic trying to make money off you. I have always done all my own work on every boat I owned and if a company made a motor that had to have the water pump changed every year it would not sell motors very long. Most water pumps are not this easy to change out. So why do you say change them every year? Are you a boat mechanic?? !!!
I am not an expert by any means but I believe the internal retainer ring is much better than the spring section. I would not run the unit with the spring section in it. I think the pinion gear height is set so that the engagement with the drive gears is controlled for proper tooth engagement. The internal retaining ring looks like the correct approach but the one you have has a narrow cross section and may not be the exact one intended. The way the pinion is designed the engagement to the teeth of the mating gears is set by the height of the pinion gear as I said previously. You can see the bearing surface of the pinion gear as the bronze bushing face that it rides on located directly above the pinion gear. I believe the top part of the shaft (if my memory serves me) has a roll pin and a cup and spring at the top of the shaft where it enters the crankshaft end. This spring is lightly compressed when the head to lower unit is mated. This constant preload of the shaft downward keeps the shaft "riding low" or forced down toward the end of the lower unit. The flat plate was scored by the key running too low in the housing because the shaft was free to move downward unrestricted by the missing c-clip. This downward pressure is resisted by the internal retainer you put in to maintain shaft position up against this retaining ring. This spring also preloads the gear engagement and eliminates gear backlash to an extent. When you push the end of the shaft up into the head you should get slight movement and feel the spring at the top of the shaft where it enters the crankshaft. The pin was riding in the wrong location because the shaft position was not controlled because the movement of the shaft was not limited by the retaining ring (c-clip). BTW there is no appreciable load on the shaft during operation in the vertical direction. Good job, I think you have it fixed.
c-clip for sure in later models, I imaging there was a factory service mod/bulletin to fix the pump impellers chewing up. I semi recall grandfather talking about adding a c-clip to keep a shaft in place, but that was in the early 90's on an 50's lightwin 3hp.
One thing you didn't seem to consider; you were pushing that gear up until it was hitting the housing. Very likely, when that motor is upright, the gear is NOT against the top of the housing and is riding lower when it is meshed with the other gears. That would give the shaft some of the "cushion" you were looking for.
Ive seen c clips that are just like a section of a spring just round no tool holes... that would be kept by the shaft taper, oh you got it I see later in video. Good work!
I would say if there is a clip on water pump to limit it's travels. Do limit the bottom travel. As a car mechanic I have learned so play is good for expansion. Not enough expansion can lead to premature wear.
great to see you did use the comments. from everywhere. even when some people acted a little bit frustrated. even you was not comfortable yourself of the fact of the sliding/grinding dowelpin. oke it would last long but this last longer. even if they did not do this in 56, they did from 57. and perhaps the pinion is younger then the engine itself. or maybe Evinrude started using it halfway 56 as an improvement. who knows. the most inportant thing it that you are satisfied about your actions and choices. big thumbs up!!! and never mind the thumbs down, because even those count in the rating of viewers. hahaha.
I suspect the original would have been a C ring made out of square spring stock, probably about .020 square, and the dog ends coming out at about 10 degrees from the plane of the ring.
We're all in this together! Just one more point (and possibly pointless)- the wear pattern on the gears would indicate whether the contact tended to occur at the bottom of the shaft play, or farther up. I don't think I'd take it apart to check, though, as I think you've hit on a workable solution.
I like the idea of the round spring clip better, you had the right idea about the shaft keeping it pressed against the walls. You should have better luck finding them in an auto parts store rather than a hardware store. But that internal snap ring should work just fine too. Eases my OCD on this issue. XD
I ran into a situation I am thinking might be similar in a 59 35HP Johnson. Curious if you thought that somewhere along the line, the lower unit was replaced with the later model? The engine I am dealing with has a pin in the driveshaft for the water pump. Clearly no half-moon key. A half-moon key was sitting in the lower unit living below the pump. The parts diagram for the 59 uses a half-moon key. Might fit well with what Anthony Demers found as well. Years can add to intrigue! Fantastic video by the way. As an outboard mechanic whose memory has a forty-year gap... I can say I remember converting many a short shaft engine to a long shaft and vice versa, and often the driveshaft was taken from scrap engines. We might have missed that a time or two. :0
i jump-started my 33cc mini-chopper with a battery charger- tiny electric starter- small fire ensued... Are there any engine fire Mustie vids? hahaha! luv this guy!!!
Also...when putting the screws holding the foot to the main body and lower foot screws, it is a good idea to put anti-seize grease on the threads. The screws will come out easier years down the road.
I think you're good to go now, laughed out loud with the "old man glasses" line... Great video as usual, I may have another buyer here for the 10HP, I'll keep in touch..
Just a thought. If they had used the correct impeller, it wouldn't have "tipped" up allowing the pin to grind out a groove and stop the impeller from spinning.
I think that inner clip youve added should do the job :-D. Dont forget that the gear will have some play when meshed, its not tight. The key won't be sitting on the plate and causing wear now. You have some loverly views around you.
Shift clutch dogs rounded off causing these motors to pop out of fwd gear alot. Water pump rubber impellers need to changed alot as well. Mercury had a tiny impeller. Evercrudes had issues with coils under flywheel goin bad when hot also. They were nice motors though. I grew up on salt water area and powerheads cooling passages would load up with salt crystals and sand. Best to pull head and exhaust to flush out debris . I ran them in barrel with dawn dish soap. Boat rental places had these and 6hp for years. Now all Tohatsu.
Measure play measure thickness of old impeller and compare or just open the whole thing and have a look. Aaaaand better then new, good to go for another 60+ years 👍
I'm still thinking that the thrust pushes the shaft up into the powerhead and centers the pin in the impeller. But I'm just using my experience with Jeep differentials.
When I put a new head on my old Puch moped in the 90s, the piston pin was held in by circular spring clips that looked exactly like what you'd need for this guy.
Your shirts are the shit, and I just now realized that I need to be making similar type videos. I am far below your skill level and own far less tools, but have 30+ projects languishing due to directional uncertainty and laziness. Thank you for your videos and insight, whether you know it or not, you are an inspirational person.
The gear had room for a clip, the clip fit into the groove with no problem apart from the ears sticking in past the rest of the clip. Me I would have gone with what the wire ring similar to what a lot of pistons have for gudgeon pin retention.
I wouldn't use that c clip. But it is yours. Thanks good show. I'd maybe a different style out of a 1957 see how that looks. I think that c clip will mess up the lower gear backlash? Good stuff keep it up.
Hey Mustie. Love the videos. I would love to see you take an old gas outboard and turn it into electric. I like gas motors as much as the next guy but some of our lakes in Michigan only allow electric. Not sure if other states are the same.
IncandescentWithRage: Ha Ha! I know...but I bet he could pull in a few views making one. Who knows...maybe he has a brushless motor laying around in the hoard.
Hi! The only thing you had to do was to compare when the end of the shaft was fluss to the gear and then measure how far in the shaft was pushed in when using the circlip and then measure that distance on the center of the old impeller and see if the pin then was located in the center. which is the ideal location for it. That way you are sure the pin does not go to far upwards in the impeller.
I am happy that you revisited this. The way you have it now is correct.
And just a FYI the 56 and 57 use the same gear case all the parts are the same.
In the future if you have any outboard questions I would be happy to answer them for you.
34 years as a outboard motor tech and member AOMCI.
@@mwatkins2464 you are 100 percent correct.
@@mwatkins2464 He tells you exactly that in a follow up video, surprised mr "34 years as a outboard motor tech" didnt delete his comment
I hate to tell you fellows your wrong but you are that’s the way they first were made but they quickly found that shifting between F&R caused the drive gear to either want to go up or down
I'm a 63 yr old retired Air Force, born and raised Minnesotan, but, retired in Wichita, KS. I've always loved these old motors, simple, primitive, but functional. I love your attitude of explore, instead of reading a manual. You make conclusions by observations. Watching your old outboard motor video's, just backs up my conclusions. There's not to many of us left, in this high tech world. Good Wrenching!!
Your integrity with your projects is of the quality that we should all aspire to. I was an Air Force aviation maintainer. I believe that qualifies me to say that your work ethic is awesome!
Did you maintain the cleaning of the hangar floors or were you servicing jet engines lol
Thank you Darren for having the open-mindedness needed to come up with a solution for this. Being receptive to the viewers/commenters input, regarding an issue that you felt was suspect, shows positive character traits and reinforces to me, your outstanding skill set. Thank you for being you and letting us wrench with you! Chuck in Kansas
I guess you didn't see the previous video where the pin was resting against the plate?
you could see what happened to the old inpeller, the shaft didnt raise at al, see the wheare marks on the old inpeller, the clip has to be in it.
(oh , and working on these(and other) engines is my proffesion, so its from first hand, so not a cautch mecanic)
I believe someone commented the first video saying that the plate should be replaced together with the impeller. If that's true I guess you wouldn't really need the clip, the plate would survive the wear of the pin running on it long enough.
The real issue with the old impeller was the incorrect diametre, at least that's my guess. OTOH the fact how uneven the wear on the old impeller was makes me feel better about it with the clip too.
thats correct if you yearly change the inpeller and plate.(no one is his right mind wil do that, so musty,s solution is not bad!)
Even though you didn't want to sell me this motor. I found an evinrude 9.9 that didn't run and using your methods, diagnosed and got it running perfect. Thanks Mustie1!
Wow,,,I read all the comments and 50% say with the clip and the other 50% say no. I think the person who put in the wrong impeller just lost the clip and it belonged there. After all---the was a place machined for it. Good job Mustie 1 for your being so observant to something so easily overlooked. PS---> I just love your videos ...Alex from the Cape
Yeah they didn't machine in that clip slot for no reason.
I think if they machined or cast the groove in there, something goes in the groove. :-)
The factory has that grove in there for a reason. Impressive that you spent the time to investigate further and preform the best possible repair. Wouldn't it be great if everyone selling something cared about the person purchasing the item so much!
Love the Craftsman stool in the background. I gave my dad one when I was a kid around 30+ years ago. It survived for years and years until It was used to hold something while beating with a hammer. I was never able to find another. Ahh Memories....
Thank you for posting another interesting video. I've been binge visiting your older videos until the wee hours of the morning .
Sad not to see the motor on a boat in a lake. You Usually play with fixed toys! Great fun watching your tinkering. Love your personality!
My grand father had a boat shop in the fifties and we still have all the old micro films. Their was no clip. It was supposed to ride on the pin, when they first came out there was a clip but they learned with the torque caused by forward and reverse the drive gear would ride up and down. They learned because of this they had a high failure rate to the drive gear and the forward and reverse gears. The shaft is floating so there is no pressure on the pin that is why it’s a pin and not a key way so it can move. This was a service bulletin put out around September 18 1956. It took me over 30 hours digging through films to find the info hope it helps.
You post makes me wonder if somewhere along the lines, the driveshaft was changed out. Not uncommon when a short shaft engine was converted to a long shaft engine. Good info!!!
Thank You Anthony. From what I see with my 18hp, you are correct. (low hour all orginal motor in my family its entire life) I converted my 18hp from a short shaft to a long shaft so I have both of the driveshafts. Both the same except the long shaft is obviously longer.
And everyone. NEVER run an outboard out of water. Doing that will burn the impeller out almost immediately.
Even for a couple of seconds. The water "lubricates" the impeller as well as cool the engine.
That is what I think also. I think the rubber impeller will get hot real fast without the water to keep it lubed and cool. Those things are off set so they will pump the water so half of the blades are bent in the housing.
Awesome videos, I got my 1977 F150 that I purchased 3 years ago and had sat for 13 before, also purchased a GX390 Honda pressure washer 4000 psi running again, great help.
Recent viewer and love what you are doing. Proper thinking about the mechanics and working it out, great stuff. Also, if evinrude introduced a spacer in the 57 onward, its safe to say they felt it was needed. Personally, I would rather have the pin at the impeller end close to the centre of the impeller as it is less likely to fail. 1957 engineering applied to 1956 outboard, brilliant 😀
Your logic seems sound to me, thanks for taking the time to address this "itch" we all needed scratched. Love the vids, all the best.
Great video ! I was facing the same issue withe a Johnson QD-16 and just thought that someone had substituted the wrong drive shaft at one point. Well, I just fitted a snap ring in that pinion gear's inside groove and now the impeller pin rides just where it should. Thanks a zillion !
I'm with you...it just feels better that the clip is in place even if this year model didn't call for it. Oh yeah, when you first thought the spring clip wasn't right and you needed a "wire ring" type, I thought, "no prob, he'll make one" and you did of course. Great fun watching this one get re-tweaked, Mustie. Thanks!!
Great series!! Found myself watching every part. It does inspire one!
Sure gave me an inside view of an outboard motor, that I've always been fascinated about. Thanks.
I would be proud to own this after such careful and considerate attention to detail. Whoever you pass it on to should know that you were a thoughtful and diligent custodian.
great repair mustie glad i could help and now that motor will run for many more years to come hope it will go to a good home and get a lot of use. Im happy to see you used the circlip that was correct for the groove in the gear in the end and realized that the shaft can indeed travel further towards the engine it is more than likely a bit of grit in the splines that prevented it from moving smoothly real good job THANKS FOR THE VIDEOS MUSTIE1
Hey Mustie. I agree with it needing a clip. I have worked on machinery since I was a pup and some had the ideal it would stay up while running. Things like shafts don't behave that way. gravity works the same for all things and the shaft is no different in this case. Love the videos.
All my best Bobby
Bobby Tectalabyss torque of the motor does not allow the shaft to move vertical but there is not a issue if it does move. It’s supposed to have some play in it. The shaft will not slide out the bottom of the foot it only slides as far as the groves cut into it. It can’t drop down far enough to even hit the dog clutch anyways no matter what so there is nothing for it to hit.
@@mwatkins2464 a simple exploded view would have given them the answer.
Hi Mustie 1, I said that your vast experiece as a mechanic and comun sense, guides You to put all in the rigth way as is should. Awesome vid. Darren, thanks for share Your wisdom whit us. Greetings.
hey mustie I am from Scotland we call them circlips , lobes on the inside are internal and lobes on the outside are external, the circlip you fitted to your outboard forward/reverse shaft is an internal well done keep making the videos I am hooked.
Anchors away Mustie, anchors away! That was a great series of videos. Thanks for sharing⚓️
Love your thought process, it's helped motivate me to finish a project car that's been sitting for ~3 years.
Thank you
I did this same job and a oversize piston job. As for the lower end oil.
As you fill the lower end put the top screw in loose and air easily comes out oil not so when it leaks oil from the top loose screw it is full. I recall 90wt. Further, calcium builds in the water paths in the motor needs cleaning on a shop visit. Fond memories of my rebuild of my Evinrude.
I'm glad you went back in .. in the first video I was sure I saw the groove for the snap ring (and I think you were right to use it instead of the wire ring , with the groove having square cut) . One thing I've found , cross over years can be either or .. as in you can find (for example) a 56 running the 57 set up but you could also find a 57 running the 56 set up !!
Personally I would have done the same as you have .. now the pin is running somewhere near the middle of the pump impeller and not riding on the wear plate , and I'd feel much happier about that (again that's just how I'd have done it)
Thanks for the follow up video ...
I like the you think / and get on with it.. I did my `57 Fleetwin 7.5 the same !*! never even had a outboard ;) Good job.. I`ll keep watching !!
You had the right idea something was missing you did right goes with the guts yeah there is metal rubbing on metal usually not a go you were smart putting impellar on the end now that made sense thanks Mustie good video
I've not looked up anything about this outboard nor have worked on outboards but to me from working on other mechanical things it looks like since the center rod has splines and the gear has inner for mating it appears that ring is suppose to like rest/sit on it not as support just to keep it the inner rod from going down more. Just my thought.
You made a fine replacement clip out of the spring, I'm sure that would have worked fine as well! Nice job and taking the time to open it up again, many wouldn't have.
Hey Mutsie with all the gear boxes i have worked on in my 40 years of experience is that with gears like that there needs to be a certain amount of preload to prevent the gear from floating on the companion gear and prevent wear. After you add gear oil to the formula you create even more pressure causing the gears wanting to separate. So dont be so obsessed with a slight interference because it in most cases needed. Good investigative work though. Appreciate your videos..
good move, that's the factory design and will last for years
now we can clear this out of our head. haha. maybe it wasn''t ment to be in the 56 but this gear pinion did have the groove in it indeed. perhaps its some parts of 57 or later or perhaps half way the year 56 they started to use them. maybe even evinrude tought it was stupid this grinding pin on the plate. and they started to implement. the only thing we know is that this is the right sollution for the problem. also mustie wasn"t completely comfortable about the grinding dowelpin. now its positioned just right.
@jan spot on, just fix it, never mind if evinrude made it that way, who cares, it works
its factory miss disign and its crap, the clip is a good solution to the problem.
@@MrBugsier5 ya sure never mind that it's 70 years old.
I had one just like it back in the 60's. Great little outboard and my pride and joy at that time. Unfortunately it died in a boathouse fire.
Hey mustie. I think that entire drive shaft and pinion gear needs to float up and down. I believe that's why the impeller's inside bushing is cut as if it excepts a key instead of a pin. The pin has the travel room up and down inside the bushing. Ya did a great job running through the fix. I liked the retaining ring idea. I was ready to grind a soft tapering into that shaft to assist in spreading the ring. All good stuff
Good job,
Love the after show shots makes me home sick.
Steve W.
Right move Mustie! Thanks for all the vids.
Many years back a friend had a motor like that and noticed the same problem. He didn't like the thought of a snap ring in that end of the pinion gear because he felt it could come out and go through the gears. He wanted me to cut a snap ring groove on the upper end of the shaft so it couldn't drop farther into the gear. I thought a groove could cause a weak point in the shaft so I made a collar that was a couple of thousands smaller than the shaft and pressed it on.
Well if your friend said no clip is used.....not on the 56 year model....then isn't he a mechanic that you trust.But I did read that one guy said he rebuilt hundreds of these and said your friend doesn't know didly.....its a crap shoot.I was number 169 thumbs up Mustie.Just keep the vids comming
Infandous Ktenology opinions are like assholes everyone has one
and they all stink!
i personally have no idea what the answer is. i have run 54, 55, 57, 58 10 hps and had them all gone through. the answer is easily found though in a .PDF of the lower unit diagram that surely must be out there on i-boats or some other forum. or even available for cheap on ebay. if it was my motor and there was uncertainty i'd get that diagram and eliminate the uncertainty. that i know of, this lower unit did not change from 55-57. the housing changed in 54 but i don't know if the guts did. '58 was totally different housing again, may be differences.
but these parts manuals are very common. i'd be shocked if you couldn't buy a download off of ebay of a .pdf for well under 10 bucks
I have all the manuals on these motors. I don't have time to scan all of them. Very little was changed on the 10hp motor gearcase during the mid 50's producation run . The 7.5hp motor used a two piece driveshaft, one upper, one lower. The lower driveshaft uses a shock absorbing spring to protect the outboard if the prop hits an object. The plate just below the water pump impeller is a wear item that is included in the OMC impeller kit. It should be replaced with the impeller. Unfortunately, I just sealed up a 56 10hp gearcase or I would could show all the parts of Mustie's gearcase. And yes, the old water pump impeller on Musties motor was the wrong one. Didn't fit the shaft, was too loose which caused the hub damage.
It's supposed to be a floating shaft, supported from the pinion with an circlip not from the water pump drive pin, glad to see it's put back together complete now
Nice job getting it all straightened out.
My guess is that all those old professionals who worked on these, probably forgot all about that clip and just naturally assumed the wear plate with the pin wearing into it was as designed (hence wear plate moniker). Great call and great finds from those who steered you in that direction.
Yeah that ring in that bottom gear didn't have that groove machined into it for nothing. Believe me you did it correct Mustie. It would of been a lot less expensive to machine that part without that ring groove. It was there for the intentions of having a retainer ring. Good Job Mustie1
Surely the action of the gears driving, would always drive the shaft upwards, pushing the pin off the plate when running. Just a thought. Fantastic videos. Thank you.
How? The gear was floating around on the spline. The two were allowed to move axially relative to each other.
nodriveknowitall
I take your point. Something must take the upward thrust of the gear. I don't think this would be the gear case, I might be wrong. If there is a shoulder on the shaft, this would lift the shaft just a few thou. That pin cannot have metal to metal contact on the plate and it must depend on the weight of the shaft being lifted of it, if only by a thou or two.
There has to be a clip of some sort in that groove for this theory to work. I see the thrust pad under the gear now so the gear and the clip work in unison, controlling the gears position, holding the pin off the plate. Thrust lifts the gear and the clip lifts the shaft. Very interesting.
Discussing real objects in the real world sure beats politics eh? Lol.
there is a shaft bearing in the lower gearcase whit a shouder to catch the pignon gear so there is no upwarts thrust on the shaft, only the gear and the bronze bearing., the solution whit the clip is the correct one, you can also sholder the shaft whit a whelder to prevent the shaft going down to mutch and center the drive pin in the middle of the inpeller. the reason of the pin riding the wheare plate is to mutch play in the shaft and pignon gearwheel.
60 years and it didn't need a clip ... now it needs a clip??
Oh well now it has a clip.
I bet it had a clip at one point but someone lost it. Some ham-fisted person was in there at some point to put that wrong old impeller in it.
You should've gone back in time and taken it to a dealer! (Joking, obviously)
Looks good, should provide many years of fun now!
I think that motor and transmission has a lot of life left to it, now. Excellent job!
snap ring vs round retaining clip = a dead tie to me, I can see the potential in both. Thanks again for the invite , commentary, and scenic view - fist bumps from Oh10!!
Brilliant series of videos, love the snap ring solution too, makes me feel somewhat better about doing similar for a missing pair of gudgeon pin (wrist pin) clips on the engine of a freebie Honda 125 I have :D Also it may make you feel more comfortable about the longevity of your hand-fashioned clip when I tell you my ones have been great for over 6 months in much harsher conditions than yours will have to deal with. Cheers again for sharing with us.
FWIW, as soon as you put a load on those gears the shaft will be forced upwards and will not ride on the pin or the c-clip. The only time the shaft will rest on the pin or the clip is when the unit is in neutral or the engine is off. Thanks for all the great videos.
can you explain the marked wear on the previous wear plate and the destruction of the surface of the previous impellers brass bearing.
And what happens when you put it in reverse? Thrust is now in the opposite direction, pulling the pin down against the plate. As others have stated, that groove is there for a reason. Gear trains were all figured out a hundred years before this motor was designed and built.
Shockedbywater rubbish!
The action on the shaft will be to push up under load. The action of the impeller is to push down under load. It will all balance out when it is working. Great call.
I'm not going to take a bow or anything but I did add a thumbs up to the guy that said to add the clip to keep it off the impeller wear plate :) In the real world, you are supposed to change the impeller yearly or so and that will make all of this a non issue. That said- most don't change the impeller ever so maybe this could help. Either way- Nice Job!!
To your second point, I was thinking the same thing the whole time. Impeller/plate ass'y is a regular maintenance item so it, to me , was a non-issue. But I still enjoyed the heck out of this series, as I do with most all of 'em. Mustie rocks, and there's alot of smart folks that check in here too. I've learned much here.
Dall Tex it’s not a yearly thing to change out the water pumps. If someone told you that it was a mechanic trying to make money off you. I have always done all my own work on every boat I owned and if a company made a motor that had to have the water pump changed every year it would not sell motors very long. Most water pumps are not this easy to change out. So why do you say change them every year? Are you a boat mechanic?? !!!
672E galaxie it’s not regular maintenance. Wow some people just say anything!!!
I am not an expert by any means but I believe the internal retainer ring is much better than the spring section. I would not run the unit with the spring section in it.
I think the pinion gear height is set so that the engagement with the drive gears is controlled for proper tooth engagement. The internal retaining ring looks like the correct approach but the one you have has a narrow cross section and may not be the exact one intended. The way the pinion is designed the engagement to the teeth of the mating gears is set by the height of the pinion gear as I said previously. You can see the bearing surface of the pinion gear as the bronze bushing face that it rides on located directly above the pinion gear. I believe the top part of the shaft (if my memory serves me) has a roll pin and a cup and spring at the top of the shaft where it enters the crankshaft end. This spring is lightly compressed when the head to lower unit is mated. This constant preload of the shaft downward keeps the shaft "riding low" or forced down toward the end of the lower unit. The flat plate was scored by the key running too low in the housing because the shaft was free to move downward unrestricted by the missing c-clip. This downward pressure is resisted by the internal retainer you put in to maintain shaft position up against this retaining ring. This spring also preloads the gear engagement and eliminates gear backlash to an extent. When you push the end of the shaft up into the head you should get slight movement and feel the spring at the top of the shaft where it enters the crankshaft. The pin was riding in the wrong location because the shaft position was not controlled because the movement of the shaft was not limited by the retaining ring (c-clip). BTW there is no appreciable load on the shaft during operation in the vertical direction. Good job, I think you have it fixed.
That darn Mustie1, i swear he could fix a busted rubber with nothing more than a nail hammer and a blowtorch. keep those vids coming.
c-clip for sure in later models, I imaging there was a factory service mod/bulletin to fix the pump impellers chewing up.
I semi recall grandfather talking about adding a c-clip to keep a shaft in place, but that was in the early 90's on an 50's lightwin 3hp.
One thing you didn't seem to consider; you were pushing that gear up until it was hitting the housing. Very likely, when that motor is upright, the gear is NOT against the top of the housing and is riding lower when it is meshed with the other gears. That would give the shaft some of the "cushion" you were looking for.
Nice fix. Glad you did that. I was concerned also. That impeller pin shouldn't rest and spin on the base plate anymore.
Ive seen c clips that are just like a section of a spring just round no tool holes... that would be kept by the shaft taper, oh you got it I see later in video. Good work!
I would say if there is a clip on water pump to limit it's travels. Do limit the bottom travel. As a car mechanic I have learned so play is good for expansion. Not enough expansion can lead to premature wear.
great to see you did use the comments. from everywhere. even when some people acted a little bit frustrated. even you was not comfortable yourself of the fact of the sliding/grinding dowelpin. oke it would last long but this last longer. even if they did not do this in 56, they did from 57. and perhaps the pinion is younger then the engine itself. or maybe Evinrude started using it halfway 56 as an improvement. who knows. the most inportant thing it that you are satisfied about your actions and choices. big thumbs up!!! and never mind the thumbs down, because even those count in the rating of viewers. hahaha.
I suspect the original would have been a C ring made out of square spring stock, probably about .020 square, and the dog ends coming out at about 10 degrees from the plane of the ring.
We're all in this together! Just one more point (and possibly pointless)- the wear pattern on the gears would indicate whether the contact tended to occur at the bottom of the shaft play, or farther up. I don't think I'd take it apart to check, though, as I think you've hit on a workable solution.
I like the idea of the round spring clip better, you had the right idea about the shaft keeping it pressed against the walls.
You should have better luck finding them in an auto parts store rather than a hardware store.
But that internal snap ring should work just fine too.
Eases my OCD on this issue. XD
Looks like a good idea . Always nice when other people see thing we dont . Great work cheers :)
Good work Mustie1, I reckon you have it right, it seems logical and your reasoning.sound. Again Good work.
I ran into a situation I am thinking might be similar in a 59 35HP Johnson. Curious if you thought that somewhere along the line, the lower unit was replaced with the later model? The engine I am dealing with has a pin in the driveshaft for the water pump. Clearly no half-moon key. A half-moon key was sitting in the lower unit living below the pump. The parts diagram for the 59 uses a half-moon key. Might fit well with what Anthony Demers found as well. Years can add to intrigue! Fantastic video by the way. As an outboard mechanic whose memory has a forty-year gap... I can say I remember converting many a short shaft engine to a long shaft and vice versa, and often the driveshaft was taken from scrap engines. We might have missed that a time or two. :0
i jump-started my 33cc mini-chopper with a battery charger- tiny electric starter- small fire ensued... Are there any engine fire Mustie vids? hahaha! luv this guy!!!
not yet
Hi teach..good morning for one of your videos as always.
Also...when putting the screws holding the foot to the main body and lower foot screws, it is a good idea to put anti-seize grease on the threads. The screws will come out easier years down the road.
Infinite patience , well done mate.
Love the trouble shooting process! Great job!!
I think you're good to go now, laughed out loud with the "old man glasses" line...
Great video as usual, I may have another buyer here for the 10HP, I'll keep in touch..
Good man for going back at it to get it right.
To me if it has a groove for a clip it should have one.
Nice job.
They use the same drive shaft for many size motors, if it didnt have a clip it doesnt need one.
@@gerardjones7881 It had the wrong impeller in it. That tells me you can't trust the last mechanic, which tells me he could have left the clip out.
I really like when you end your videos with a little nature shot. Kinda like desert for the brain, after a hefty meal of wrenchin.
What a puzzling little engine this has been.
Just a thought. If they had used the correct impeller, it wouldn't have "tipped" up allowing the pin to grind out a groove and stop the impeller from spinning.
I think that inner clip youve added should do the job :-D.
Dont forget that the gear will have some play when meshed, its not tight.
The key won't be sitting on the plate and causing wear now.
You have some loverly views around you.
Taking it back apart and making it better gets my thumbs up.
Barry Rudolph and a good comment such as this gets mine!
Impressed by your patience to get it right. Would be interested to know if the fix worked out in the long run.
It's made to float like that it will cause grinding with a retainer centrifical force floats the pin above the plate when at rpm
Shift clutch dogs rounded off causing these motors to pop out of fwd gear alot. Water pump rubber impellers need to changed alot as well. Mercury had a tiny impeller. Evercrudes had issues with coils under flywheel goin bad when hot also. They were nice motors though. I grew up on salt water area and powerheads cooling passages would load up with salt crystals and sand.
Best to pull head and exhaust to flush out debris . I ran them in barrel with dawn dish soap. Boat rental places had these and 6hp for years. Now all Tohatsu.
a little bit of water will always get into the gearbox, its nothing to worry when you see water next oil change, it works fine with an oil emulsion
Measure play measure thickness of old impeller and compare or just open the whole thing and have a look.
Aaaaand better then new, good to go for another 60+ years 👍
I'm still thinking that the thrust pushes the shaft up into the powerhead and centers the pin in the impeller. But I'm just using my experience with Jeep differentials.
What's going to thrust the shaft upward, if there's nothing locking the gear to the shaft axially?
God Job Mustie, Should Work Fine !!
they made quality stuff back then just saying my dads 4hp Evinrude held for 35 years over half his life he never changed impeller ever
When I put a new head on my old Puch moped in the 90s, the piston pin was held in by circular spring clips that looked exactly like what you'd need for this guy.
that was common on many small motors and also the cause of death to many of them. :)
Thank God we got another video I've been waiting
I have a 56 15hp and in the service manual it shows a retainer between the pinion gear and shaft.
Your shirts are the shit, and I just now realized that I need to be making similar type videos. I am far below your skill level and own far less tools, but have 30+ projects languishing due to directional uncertainty and laziness. Thank you for your videos and insight, whether you know it or not, you are an inspirational person.
The gear had room for a clip, the clip fit into the groove with no problem apart from the ears sticking in past the rest of the clip. Me I would have gone with what the wire ring similar to what a lot of pistons have for gudgeon pin retention.
Love the ending Moment of Nature
That might just work Darrin ! Thumbs up ..
I wouldn't use that c clip. But it is yours. Thanks good show. I'd maybe a different style out of a 1957 see how that looks. I think that c clip will mess up the lower gear backlash? Good stuff keep it up.
backlash has nothing to do with the clip,
I sure do miss the mountains!
I would drop the lower unit to see where the pin is located when your clip is installed.
Hey Mustie. Love the videos. I would love to see you take an old gas outboard and turn it into electric. I like gas motors as much as the next guy but some of our lakes in Michigan only allow electric. Not sure if other states are the same.
wkualum Blasphemy
IncandescentWithRage: Ha Ha! I know...but I bet he could pull in a few views making one. Who knows...maybe he has a brushless motor laying around in the hoard.
I would be surprised if he has just one, lol maybe a small pile
@@datadavis @mustie1 whadoyasay? It's a content idea anyway....for summer coming up.
Hi!
The only thing you had to do was to compare when the end of the shaft was fluss to the gear and then measure how far in the shaft was pushed in when using the circlip and then measure that distance on the center of the old impeller and see if the pin then was located in the center. which is the ideal location for it. That way you are sure the pin does not go to far upwards in the impeller.