Vintage Guitar Intonation - You Can't Hear it Anyway
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- Опубликовано: 13 авг 2023
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Please put down the camera for a moment and ship out the pickups your customers have paid for long time in advance. They told me not to ,and I did. I bought your stuff which has amounted to nothing but a lighter wallet
You have emailed and we have replied. If you would like me to cancel your order and refund your money after the correspondence we have had, I am happy to do that. The natured of handmade to order parts is that we make everything to order and the usual wait time is about three weeks. You ordered 23 days ago. Like I said, I’m happy to cancel and refund.
On second thought … I went ahead and refunded and cancelled. It’ll be better that way.
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What Tele model?
you hear it in the thirds of chords the most.
When you play a guitar with not perfect intonation and then you adjust it as close as you can to perfect, you can absolutely hear the difference. It makes everything sound better.
Agreed
I can definitely hear it
anime pfp = 🧢
Nope.
@@user-my2of5fb6u you = 👨🏼🦼
@@FlyingCircusAct yep
Yea I think there is a myth that everyone’s ears are the same… some people can hear it easily… and most others cannot… the range of tuning sensitivity Im sure is larger than most understand… just like color sensitivity and eyes… people have different ranges of ability.
Your ear will hear it, or should, if you have the ear. Some will hear it easily, some less so. and the amount of gain/distortion will effect how much it is heard. Most people can't put their finger on what is out, and we have to remember that a guitar is entirely a compromise; a guitar cannot perfectly intonate (neither can a piano, but that's another subject). But chords played up on the neck will sound off if the intonation is off.
I respectfully suggest looking further into this. Intonation is a deep rabbit hole. Many, many musicians go absolutely nuts trying to conquer it.
Depending on the guitar, setting intonation at the 12th fret can be wildly inadequate. You can be dead-on at the 12th fret but way off on the first three. Try tuning the open string then check it with the tuner fretting at the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd fret. Often I find this is where the worst problems are, and adjusting the saddle hardly affects it. This is because stringed instruments have "end tension," meaning the string has higher tension at the saddle AND the nut, potentially requiring compensation at both.
If you really can't hear this then thank your lucky stars because when you can it's a curse, and I assure you, many players can. Depending what style you play maybe it doesn't matter. But if for example you play jazz with octave melodies it's pretty hard not to hear it.
I hope this comment doesn't come across badly. It's just a subject I have personally invested a lot of time into over the years. I had luthiers telling me my guitar was perfectly in tune when I could clearly hear that it wasn't, so I had to learn on my own how to fix it. It's not about having super hearing, it's just that once you become aware of it it bugs you.
Dave for the Win 🏁🏁🏁🏁
Intonation problems around frets 1, 2, 3 are probably due to a nut that is too high. If the nut is too high, then it will require relatively more tension to fret the note, pulling it sharp. That said guitar intonation isn’t perfect, there are compromises, since you intonate one string at a time and each string can produce 20+ notes. You can only have perfect intonation for one of those notes and usually you pick the octave. All other notes will be a little off. Pianos you can intonate one note at a time, it’s better than a guitar, but still not perfect. A C major chord will have a slightly different color (besides being different pitches) than a D major chord because the intervals between the notes are actually slightly different. Guitars with squiggly frets are an attempt to improve guitar intonation to the level of a piano. If you want to get really picky, like in a recording situation, you can intonate the guitar to the song you want to record. I’m pretty certain some virtuoso players like steve vai even adjust intonation of chords on the fly by applying slight bends to certain strings.
@DaveZula I agree with you 100 %. The first 3 frets are driving me nuts because it's these open chords where you hear clearly if something isn't right with your intonation even if all the other check points along the freboard are cleared. I'm that kind of maniac that spend hours to find the perfect intonation and I'm getting pretty close. It's all a matter of balance. Eventually I'll get to the perfect intonation before the end of this life ;-))
There is a bit of imprecise explanation here. Unfortunately intonation instructions rarely clearly state why you need to do it. Which sometimes leads other people to do it wrong.
The reason for not comparing the harmonic to the open string when setting intonation has nothing to do with "you don't play like this". The 12th-fret harmonic is always an octave away from the open string note (any variation you might see on a tuner is only due to a tuner's ability to sense those two same-notes accurately, your ability to pluck them in the same way, or a bad string). So anyone using only the harmonic and open string to adjust intonation is not adjusting intonation AT ALL.
The reason for needing to adjust intonation is fretting-induced sharpening of the note. When you fret a note, you stretch the string slightly. That slight stretching raises the pitch. You need to adjust intonation (lengthen the string's scale length) to flatten that fretted note frequency back to what it should be for that fret (for equal temperament, the basis of fret locations).
So you must use a fretted note - plain and simple.
yes, I am surprised by how many people I run into that think otherwise.
The stretching of the string is not the only thing changing the pitch. It's the fixed location of the actual fret wire relative to the length of the string which we are changing by adjusting the screws. That's why you need to fret the note. To catch the string on the fret wire which is fixed in space and then we adjust the length of the string to match the pitch of the open string (or the harmonic). The fret acts the same as the nut for the open string.
@@emperorOfMustard fret locations are correct for equal temperament (12th root of 2 fret spacing). So there is no adjustment necessary for fret location. Guitars with incorrect fret locations are rare. Except for some "rule of 18" Gibsons.
@@vw9659 the location of the fret is fixed and an approximation to the assigned scale length. But the length of the string is not constant since that is what you are changing when adjusting the intonation.
@@emperorOfMustard it is not "an approximation to the assigned scale length". The manufactured scale length is exactly what it should be for the fret placements, and vice-versa. That scale length is then adjusted longer at the saddles only for the string sharpening that occurs with fretting. That sharpening is a function of the string's longitudinal stiffness, which determines how much lengthening is required to achieve the correct frequency for the fretted note. Which is why adjusted saddles always have the same pattern, that is consistent with the varying core diameters (stiffness) of the different strings. If there was an adjustment for manufactured fret position error or scale length error on different guitars involved, those saddle offsets would not always have the same pattern.
The open string and the 12th fret harmonic are the same note. If you try to intonate your guitar using only those two notes, you will always think your intonation is bang on because they are the same note. Hope this helps.
You're right. And everywhere on the internet we can hear peoples, who probably never intonated a guitar, telling you to do it using the harmonic. Even on some serious website.
You should always fret the note when intonating because the pitch of the middle harmonic doesn't change. Only the location but since the adjustments are so small the change in relative location is not really noticable.
Ok, so I am a bit concerned that this is stated here. You say you don't intonate with the open string and the 12th harmonic by choice, but the thing is that this isn't a choice. The 12th harmonic will always be intonated with the open string. This is a physical feature of how a string resonates. One must intonate the fretted notes.
Right. 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret should be in tune (within a couple of cents) with each other.
It is not as difficult as YT makes out.
????@@StratsRUs
yeah Dylan talks a lot, and is also wrong about a lot
Indeed. But by pointing out something pointless, it sounds as if he makes sense with whatever he says next.
The worst case (for reference) is the bass E string (0.053") on a steel-string acoustic guitar when pressed at the first fret. This produces an error of five cents. Most people can hear this, especially as part of a chord where the other notes come from open strings. It may be less noticeable on an electric guitar with distortion.
The intonation errors can be reduced to practically zero cents on all strings, all frets, if both the nut and the saddle are compensated correctly. The nut compensation is different for each string, from about 1.0 mm to 2.4 mm. The saddle compensation is then less than usual, from 0.8 mm to 2.9 mm.
Unfortunately, very few guitar builders do this.
Before tuners became a thing, violin teachers insisted on tuning forks. You tune A to a fork and then you had to be able to tune D and E relative to A. And G relative to D. We were taught to listen for a sort of pulsing sound and how it disappears when you've hit a perfect 4th. No super-duper perfect-pitch skills required. Do that a million times and like anything, it becomes second nature.
I still have a tuning fork, and swear by it in the studio, and doing setups
Yes, thats how i learned to tune my violin and i do it to this day. Ok i now use a tuner for tuning the A string. But i think you meant perfect 5th.
@@Mullewarp doh! You are 100% correct. Typo. Damn phone keyboards... I do the same too. Only stumbled across my own tuning fork the other day. The point I was trying to make though was when Dylan talked about being able to hear pitch being off in the context of other notes. Yes. That is very much a thing. Every violin, viola, cello, double bass player was/is (I hope) taught this but I certainly never thought about it in this context before. I just thought it was really interesting hearing it from a different perspective.
Never played violin but I'm old enough, still have pitch pipes and tuning forks! Don't use them mutch, only to amuse younger folks. 😅
So, who invented the tuning fork and made sure they were correct?
Pretty much the only person I've found on youtube actually explaining the WHY and not just the how. The idea of intonating my guitar, as a beginner, had me so terrified of even picking one up. Thank you for this
I’m partial to 12 harmonic and then matching to the fretted 12th note. Even if that’s wrong, I always hear the chords I play sounding correct.
I believe you, but in practice I couldnt get my tele (partscaster) to play in tune until I got the compensated saddles. Just my own isolated and unique experience. My other tele has individual roller saddles. No problems there.
8:06 *Perfectly* intonated? ehhh.... I would say *close enough* intonated.
Have you tried repeating your 12 cents test with high game distortion applied? Do it on more than one string out of tune?
A Peterson Tuner. A solid investment people.
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Super video... Dylan
For me, I hear notes warble when getting close and passed the 12th fret if the intonation is out on my guitars.
I got new tele saddles because my old ones allowed the strings to dive into the screw holes, causing them to de-tune, be the wrong height and be irregular distances apart.
The fact that the new saddles made the guitar easier to intonate was a massive bonus.
Can’t hear intonation?!?! Tell that to the guitar player I tech’d for. He could hear any out of tune note. It all depends on who is listening.
It takes longer but I actually prefer to intonate the guitar NATURALLY. Just spend a lot of time outside with friends, drink plenty of water and take a B vitamin supplement
Aaaaaand it’s Snicker by a ‘C’ Hair‼️
Vroooooom‼️
🏁🏁🏁🏁🏁
@@snicker576I don’t understand.
Please explain what are referring to when you say natural?
Maybe I can learn something new.
That is why I ask.
Right! My daughter will call me from a neighboring state and say, "Dad, tune your b string already. It's giving me a headache '.
Great explanation of the intonation process! Early in my guitar journey I ended up selling a few decent guitars because I couldn't keep them in tune. Turns out I just didn't know how to intonate. On a couple guitars it was likely the nut not being cut deep enough or high action, which (as you said) will affect the intonation. One other important point is how firmly you fret the note at the 12th fret. If you push down too hard you can bring it out of tune. I guess the point there would be to press down as hard as you press when you play.
When I was jamming with a brass band a old geezer saw me using a tuner and tapped mecon the back and said " give me that, you can tune and intonate with your ears so get rid of of that thing" , he was right.
It’s possible if the guitar is perfectly set up, which most players don’t know how to do. But even if you can intonate with vintage saddles it still doesn’t solve the problem of string spacing or the scratchy set screws.
I've noticed that there is always a very slight (inaudible) difference between the fretted and harmonic notes at the 12th fret for each string. So, I tune the string and then check intonation by fretting, and then adjust the bridge until the difference is minimized. This minimization varies with the physical limitation of various bridge types. "Perfection is not a state, so don't try to go there" - quoting myself from 1970. An ideal is like a mirage - always just out of reach. But, you can, and as you do, move toward it, you prolong your gaze and (hopefully) get closer to understanding the image.
You’ve been married for a portion of this life haven’t you???😏
Try playing 10ths. between the D and G string on that 3 saddle tele.
Hmm. Think again.
Something you glossed over and im more curious about ive always heard the string is essentially in the dead center of the 12th but that raises another question if it is to be in the center wouldnt that mean that the saddles would be flat all the way across totally perpendicular to each other? As the nut is flat from treble to bass or is it only the high e that is to be intonated that way then the rest fallow suit?
He's giving his two cents about three cents...
Listen to all the amazing classic tracks played on three saddle Telecasters.
Speedy West was so fast the notes were back in tune when they caught up to him….🎸🔜……. 🔙🎶
Also, the difference in the 12 fret methods...how significant is it in cents?
Hi Dylan, any videos lessons on action with a Floyd Rose how to set?
So, you can't hear it unless you can and there's no need to change anything, unless there is.
It is impossible to get the thirds absolutely perfect on a guitar. Even on a piano it is a compromise (natural intonation vs. tempered intonation).
I do it like this and it works best for me: I use the front pickup, turn the tone knob all the way down and put as much distortion on, as I can. Then I tune my low E to pitch. Fret the tuned a-string on the 14th fret, play both and listen if there's an unpleasant vibrating sound. If so, I pull the fretting finger towards the neck, this way the note gets slightly higher. If that makes the vibrating go away, I know that the saddle for the a-string must be screwed towards the neck, as that makes the fretted note go up. If it works the other way around, the saddle must be moved in the opposite direction.
I repeat this on all strings. Then I check f. e. the high e against the low e. and all the other strings against each other. I make sure, that I fret 4s or fifths to the note of the unfretted (and, of course tuned!) string, sometimes octaves.
The distortion will exaggerate any intonation problems and taming the high frequencies makes it easier for me to hear what's wrong. Works fine for me. As it is put forward in this video, the guitar must be set up properly. Otherwise intonation will be all over the place.
I can hear it.
I absolutely love the p90 pickups and how the p90s respond in juniors but I can’t stand the cords around the 8th fret. Why because we can hear I can hear off sound.
Dude, " you " can hear it. centuries went by with no instant tuners and great music resulted.
I pretty much only charge out cheaper parts. You know, like if something rattles or just feels like it’s not durable. Other than that, I pretty much do what you just did. NOBODY has ever said that I was out of tune.
When it’s out I can hear it, when it’s set appropriately I can hear it. I don’t have amazing ears but it drives me crazy that it’s out.
Thanks for reminding me about this. My Dot is a bit off.
For years people have been telling me that clip on tuners aren’t accurate enough. I’ve also been using a clip on tuner for years. I always sound just as in tune with that tuner than with a strobe tuner. Because of this I came to the conclusion a long time ago that we can’t hear imperfections as well as we think we can. I’ve strictly used the clip on ever since
I use a clip on blood 🩸 pressure monitor the same way. I even use my clip on tuner attached to the clip on blood pressure monitor….
(The beeps and tics are flat)
Between the two I have since come to the conclusion I will live long enough to see instant perfect intonation everywhere courtesy of the AI that will destroy everything else we enjoy now.
Can proper intonation be made using a clip on snark tuner on the head?
Absolutely…. But it may be a few cents Snarky 😏
My tuner always jumps around a whole lot. It is typically sharp at first then it descends in tone and holds for a brief moment, and then begins declining more rapidly. This process makes it difficult for me to tune my guitar as I have to wait for the sweet spot (usually 3 or 4 seconds) to check tuning. Is this just normal practice or is there something likely wrong?
Normal for most tuners
Plucked string will resonate sharp at first…. Tuner will respond to first vibrations sharper than settle back down to reality…. If it settles flat…. You go up a hair more.
If you pluck it and it starts dropping flat….you’ve entered a 5th Dimension ….
THE TWĪNŌTE ZŌNE
@scottbaker5938 That's normal. It's called "pitch glide". When you pluck a string, you stretch it a little before it leaves your pick. So it starts off sharper and then glides down in pitch before stabilizing on a final pitch.
How you deal with that when tuning depends on how you play. Since most people play notes/chords back-to-back with little time interval between them, they never hear pitch glide when playing. So it makes most sense to tune like that. Pluck the string continuously when tuning, with similar force to when you are playing. If instead you pluck and wait for the string to glide down and stabilize in pitch, you will be tuning the string to a flatter pitch, that you rarely hear when playing (unless maybe you play in a style where you let most notes ring).
Yea I can.
It's a frustrating thing... i end up changing tuning of strings, based on what chords i'm going to be using and where i'll be playing them, to compensate. Ideally, i'd like a fully adjustable saddle and frets for each string... but then you usually lose sustain and end up with a messy fretboard... 😕 but i still don't believe it's impossible to have piano like tuning on a guitar... just have to figure out how 😅
Two issues...i tried many clip on tuners, including a few snark...could not get them to agree, so went back to my boss plugin tuner...i found a lot of variation, how significant that variation is is another matter for somone else to iivestigate....
Second...the issue of using a capo changes everything...
I'm OCD on guitar intonation. Only after I discovered what it was how it worked and how to do it if not perfect but as close to perfect as possible, easily with a tuner. It's a pet peeve of mine. My guitars sound great.
My brother drives me nuts with ignorance. I am definitely not a guitar god, I play but that's about it, I enjoy it, but I've been doing it a long time. I will just play these open chords on my Les Paul Studio, acoustical, loud, take the strings so it just rings out as my brother's walking by to go out for a smoke or something, to rub it in, no so much rub it in as to say I know what I'm talking about he's got a few nice cool guitars, they are good guitars, a modern Gibson SG Junior, and a Squier Mustang, Vintage like I think, it's the "good" Squier Mustang. They are being the great, but they sound like crap because the intonation is out of wack. He u need to try to make it sound in tune, bending stings slightly, compensating. I keep telling him, set the intonation on them. Great guitars, I wish I could play them if you are not here, I would, but they are no fun to play. He keeps saying "those guitars are awesome. Those are the best guitar s I have ever owned"I have no comment other than "yeah, but they would be better if you set it up...." He gets annoyed "I've been playing since before you.... I know what I'm doing" what he fails to realize is that away from him, years in my 20's and 30's, I learned about and played A LOT of guitar. Aspects, not just playing, but yeah.
It matters. It's a big deal to me. He didn't even touch the Squier settings. I drives me crazy. I won't touch that guitar with a 10 foot pole.
Is it true that intonation issues become apparent only at very high volume levels?
Apparently It was a big issue at Gitmo
With Intonation, some years ago, I heard a RUclipsr say "If its sharp, sharp things hurts, so you pull back". That little saying helps remember which way to do the adjustment.
The other thing about not being able to hear the fraction of a cent, is that your headstock tuning ratios might not be refined enough to get that close.
And to add to that huge intonation issues if the strings are binding at the nut by any means even a small amount of grip and youll notice it go sharp besides who likes a string bend that stays...bent! 😅
I can’t stand when people try to set intonation using harmonics. It’s almost always off somewhere. I always fret the string at 12 too
Thanks Dylan! that was great advice... and I am beginning to see that in action more all the time. Vintage bridges are proven, and they can be intonated well...
They can’t. They just have a charm about them. You can hear it’s off.
Telecaster Fun Fact:
Leo named it when he tried to tell a guy it was full of flaws
Stop making sense! There is a guy on here, don’t get me wrong, I love him, that can hear intonation playing cowboy chords. If cowboy chords sound wrong, it would be nut action …. Right? I check mine by ear by playing barre chords in the area of the 12th fret. I use several shapes. It’s still hard to notice.
I believe I have better super-duper tuning hearing than the average guitarist because I'm also a trombone and fretless bass player! :)
The main worry on Tele is if your choice of action, gauges, and (note) tuning makes it so one of the strings on a single saddle/barrel/pair can't be intonated, even with compensated saddles. If this is your situation, note two things:
1) If one of the pair is intonated, and the other is +6 cents sharp, reintonate so that one is +3 and the other is -3 flat.
2) The human ear always prefers out of tune notes that are *sharp* over ones that are *flat*. So in the previous case go for +4 and -2, or even a greater bias.
And it's not necessarily the case that "humans can't perceive a detuning below N cents", but rather the discrepancy of intonation for *intervals* will seem dissonant, especially when the harmonic overtones clash, which can be exacerbated by gain that adds (or emphasizes) harmonics.
So keep in mind that scientists may be able to measure such things (and mostly just result in a statistical average, disregarding outliers), but they never take into account the musical and aesthetic context that players have to operate within.
Brilliantly Stated.
My Father and Charlie Mingus had long discussions on the Rectification or better yet…..
‘The Compromise’ to these brickbats between my Dad’s Tubas & Contra Bass Trombones and Charlie’s Upright during Live performance or Recording.
My Dad struggled with Sonic Demons few knew existed during his career. He told me long after Charlie passed that he was the one man in a million that he could discuss the bass clef galaxy with intelligently. His good friend Bucky Pizzarelli, 7 string virtuoso, explained to me in detail as a teenager that the guitar itself is a bass clef tool.
The only thing super-duper about me is my appetite. (appetite for Dylan's content, that is.)
The Gibson wraparound bridges never sounded flat or sharp to me. People freak out because what their tuner says. I did compare a TonePros adjustable wraparound bridge to a Gibson lightning bolt bridge on an LP Jr. and the lightning bolt one sounded way better than the adjustable one. The adjustable sounded snappy like a tune-o-matic and it took all the fatness away from the P90.
Greetings, I received a reply in winning a guitar here by Dylan , and last I checked, the reply was taken away 😢 .. I got Punked 😢
Evh heard that damn b string off a few cents and compensated and sounded pitch perfect. I try that method and sound horrible.
I can
My Big Apple Strat had the bridge in the wrong place. Low E could not be intonation.
Ya I’ve seen a lot of new and “high end” instruments come across my bench with their bridges mispositioned. Agufish just sent back a $1,700 I think Tom Delong strat because the bridge was crooked or the neck was out of line. The low E ran almost off the fretboard
Cool I’m in
It takes longer but I actually prefer to intonate the guitar NATURALLY. Just spend a lot of time outside with friends, drink plenty of water and take a B vitamin supplement
Great vid! Agree with all the points you made. I had major intonation issues only once with an affinity telecaster which actually had a 6 saddle bridge, go figure 😅. From the factory they just put on the saddles, checked nothing, shipped the guitar. That was the only time I could indeed hear intonation issues. If it's close enough, you won't notice at all.
I can hear it
I find that some brands or types of strings intonate better than others. Flatwounds and half rounds in particular sound worse to me. And a lot of times if there’s a bad string it’ll be the thinnest wound one. Apart from that, most factory guitars sound fine to me. It’s the horns and acoustic pianos that sound out of tune to these old ears.
Upgrading a guitar almost never pays off financially, only for sentimental reasons.
😢
I have God ears because im special music makes me SPECIAL!!!!!
I can hear it if it is one or two cents off. I play a lot of octaves ala Wes Montgomery. It shows up clearly there. Overall you are right about making the adjustments last thing. After neck adjustment and string action. For intonation I use a old Conn strobe tuner to get it exact.
Them Bitches don’t lie ‼️
Ancient Studio Ware is Golden
Conn….. better gadgets than instruments. My Dad did his career with King Tubas from Cleveland but Conn always wanted his biznet…. They always had him trying amps and things like “The Multi-Vider”….
Some ‘student’ would always run off with the goods….😱
Oh brother I beg to differ. I cannot stand old teles with the ashtray bridge and how horrible they sounds. And yes my ears are good enough to know when a guitar is struggling with intonation. Some older teles bridges saddles are horrible and some are sounding a little better depending on chords you play in certain songs.
I don't like strobe tuners. A polytune can also tell me if a note is sharp/flat anywhere on the neck.... I tend to overpress the G string so I compensate a bit by checking the 5th fret. My vintage Tele is truly spot on also...and it's a cheap CV50.
Just play people 😊 when i was a kid i used to tie strings back together i told a "real guitar player" this once and he said thats impossible so i had to show him😂
OUT-TONATION is the new INTONATION
The 12th. fret will not be a half the length of the open string.
A competent musician's ear will be more accurate than a tuner.
The tele you were using was not intonated accurately.
12 cents ??? Baloney.
The main cause of the need for making the saddles further back than twice the 12th. is string stiffness sharpening the pitch as you fret the string shorter because the shortening from stiffness becomes a greater proportion of resonating length.
No. It is not possible to intonate a 3 saddle bridge.
You have a deal of misinformation in this video.
This comment from a manufacturing luthier with fifty years experience.
if you are recording..... intonation means a lot..... you are over-simplifying things. Playing with other correctly intonated instruments will make it important
⬆️ Studio Fun Fact: No. 57 🎼🎤🎹🎸
Bros never heard of equal temperament or chords before 😂
I can hear angels fart.
Intonation science was Jeff Beck. For the rest of us humans we won't hear it.
Good video, those shorts though 😅
I am not responsible or your insecurity
You are technically correct but what is missing is the fact that 12 evenly divided tones is an imperfect way to hear music and all fretted instruments make concessions in their tunings. This is why chords sound more and less in tune depending on where they’re played. Also high gain amplification can compound differences in notes that are less than friendly to each other in intervals. For example take players like Eric Johnson, EVH, Steve Via, and Satch who are known to adjust their intonation usually B and G strings to sound better and play well with the other strings. It’s all a give and take but just perfectly intonating your guitar and trying to play suspended chords up the fretboard with even moderate distortion is frustrating. Intonation is relative. One of the best skills to learn is to tune to 1 reference not then tune the rest of the guitar to that. Your tuner will possibly show you out of tune but your ear will hear you in. Same reason why if your playing with others everyone should tune to the fixed instrument say a piano or horns rather than a tuner. It’s more important to be in tune to each other than “perfectly” in tune to your tuner. Figuring out as a kid that EVH slightly detuned his B string by ear to a chord made a huge impact on my musical development. So your right we can’t hear the difference between a fretted note and open if a little off but with lower tunings, and high gain amps relative tuning and intonation is definitely audible.
Detuning the B string will only make one chord sound a little more in. A lot more will be out and plenty of players compensate for this by avoiding the B string for everything except that interval. If you flatten the B string no matter what the context, you are actually constantly out of tune.
However what you’re comparing here isn’t intonation as being discussed in the video, but 12TET vs JI, which is a whole different discussion.
12TET is a huge compromise and the reason people accept it because we don’t hear pitch as well as we like to think and anyone who claims detuning the B string is a solution to the compromises of 12 TET only proves that statement further.
@@3rdStoreyChemist respectfully I think you took my example way too literally and missed the point that exact intonation is far less important than relative tuning yes but there are times and situations in which improper intonation can definitely be heard. I really like Dylan and find a lot of his videos correct in respect to tone wood etc but I believe that just making a statement like intonation isn’t that important because “you can’t hear it” is wrong. studio musicians compensate for inherent flaws in fretted instrument intonation all the time. You actually proved my point by saying players avoid the B string all the time. If you’re a younger player just learning and maybe haven’t or don’t play with others you may struggle with that thinking your doing something wrong, I mean the chord book says that notes supposed to be there? Look I agree with his premise that you can put too much into trying to achieve perfect intonation but to say no one can hear it is simply not correct. So if a younger player puts on really heavy strings and tunes down to A or C and now can’t figure out why nothing sounds in tune what is he supposed to do with “Dylan says I can’t hear intonation”. And before you respond with “he said proper set up is crucial” if you’re guitar has been properly set up, why are you messing with intonation?
@moparbryan you are confusing the limitations of equal temperament (the basis of fret placements) with intonation adjustment (to compensate for fretting-induced sharpening). Those limitations are an entirely different topic.
One of the reasons why people don't understand guitar tuning very well is that they don't clearly distinguish betweeen the various ways that a note can sound "out of tune" with another note. Which often leads them to the wrong solutions.
@@vw9659 well you right in as much as I shouldn’t have said studio musicians compensate for intonation rather the limitations of equal temperament. That said my point is less about an in the weeds dissection of equal temperament and more so that a guitar which is the instrument we’re talking about can and will sound “sour” or “out of tune” if not properly intonated and that issue will be exacerbated by lower tunings and “high gain” or sparkling clean tones with certain cords and intervals. Musicians regularly compensate with slight adjustments of tuning the inherent flaws of imperfect temperament. That’s on properly intonated instruments. To start with one that is clearly off will compound the problem. Again the statement in the video was “don’t worry about intonation, you can’t hear it” that is false. A better statement might be don’t chase perfection, just get as close as possible and move on. Also he made the statement that “if you’ve got a tele and I’ve got a tele there’s pretty much no chance it’s an intonation problem”. Try tell that to any of use that have had to relocate Gibson wrap around bridges or Gibson and Martin acoustic bridges that were installed off, way off! I have personally seen an SG and a Les Paul 1/2” off on the treble side. These were mid 60”s instruments also older acoustic guitars are glued on incorrectly with some regularity. Is a 58’ Les Paul junior through a Marshall cranked up playing power cords gonna sound bad due to intonation issues? Not very likely but jazz players don’t usually gravitate towards them for a reason
@@moparbryan You’re still making the same error. The harmonics created from distortion follow the harmonic series so it only exposes the compromises with 12TET and again, any ‘solution’ creates greater problems somewhere else.
What Dylan has claimed isn’t incorrect, just it’s difficult for what is clearly a lot of men to accept, even though it’s been right in front of them the whole time. If you like chorus and detuning to thicken up sound, guess what... you’re perfect rly happy with things not perfectly in tune. If you love listening to a large string section or choir where everyone is slightly out of tune, you’re perfect fly fine with things not being perfectly intonated. With distorted guitar, it’s often about the tone and genre that defines how much of a problem it really is.
Essentially claiming detuning the B string makes chords sound fuller when in reality it’ll make a chord like E/Emin instantly out of tune because B is the 5th and near enough perfect, it’s the G string that requires a detuning. With a Gmaj, it’d be out if tune if you fret the 3rd fret on the B string otherwise it’s out of tune, plus you need to de tune the A string to get the major 3rd better in tune as well.
Essentially detuning the B string does make your guitar out of tune. You haven’t understood situations where professional do detune it fully and you need to learn what is really going on with intonation and 12 TET. It’s nothing to do with the age of the player, one of my first essays at university has about the maths behind it. I was expected to understand it that deeply.
Maybe you can’t hear it…but you probably live on a “globe” too? Science. (Joke)
your nice legs is a distraction 😅
but thank you very much for the epic tips, I have a MIM deluxe tele sunburst, with 3 piece bridge.
Agree completely,99% of people cant hear sharp, notes attacked hard go sharp and decay flat ,so intonation is in your hands, get it good enough and enjoy your guitar
Intonation is not in your hands. Guitar fret spacing is a compromise anyway, so having shared saddle adjustment makes it more of a compromise.
I've been playing for a lot of years. This is the best explanation of intonation I have ever heard. Thanks!
I will say this, go to a gig with bad intention. You will worry about it next time you play a gig.
I’m starting to wonder if his trolling us. To get comments.
You can’t check intonation with the harmonic. It’s impossible.
YOU might hear pitch very accurately but lots of people do.
People have made TONS of hits with a tele with non-compensated three saddle bridge, meaning there are thousands and thousands of songs you’ve heard in your life were dine without perfect intonation
It’s important but equally is how you fret your notes
Your fretting technique is probably more important than perfect intonation.
People (like me) chase “perfect intonation” so we don’t have to work so hard to sound in tune with our playing.
Keep up with the playing
A few thousandths, this is jibberish, adios Dylan.
What’s jibberish about that?
No jibberish detected.
@@FlyingCircusAct Looky we have the troll helper. Thank you Mrs. Helper.
@@sinjon Because I said so troll helper. Thank you Mr. Helper
@@M4USMC Calm your panties jarhead, someone step on your crayons? lol
People test their intonation with a harmonic? That makes zero sense.
anyone that does that has no business adjusting intonation
you know a guitar is not intonated when the bridge look wacky
now for real.higher up chords can sound "phasy" or "tremoly" in REALLY badly intonated guitars
OMG 😳 .. Smooth Intonation ... I😊 started playing in the early 70s , and never knew about intonation .. i only changed out strings from time to time ... Played in various bands with never being told my guitar is off sounding... Hmmmm
I’d gladly go back to those days …. We swore we’d never say that….
But the reasons to Reneg are piling up….and it ain’t just guitars🎸
You could’ve been in The Stones Mate‼️ Until a Young Mick Taylor schooled them 🎸🎸🎸🎸
Check out his first eponymous solo record….1978
uh... yes you can. ever try playing chords up the neck?
Pre Video comments amuse me
@@DylanTalksTone😂
Because the commenter is just replying to the clickbait (no offense…you have to do it) title of the post?
Duude!
Sounds really clear!
Great audio!
Important topic!
Cheers from Texas!
🤘😺🤘
Perfect intonation is a myth for real guitars made of real materials, which - unlike ideal guitars and ideal materials - all have limitations. Factor in the limitations of human hearing, and the tuning compromises introduced by the tempered scale, and you should realise that practical intonation is only ever 'good enough', not perfect. Fretted stringed instruments are inherently compromised, and the adjustments that we can make at the bridge just allow us to reduce those compromises to an acceptable level.
Ok you are right the tuner is better than human ears. Play a cord and see the truth. You are so Wrong to say it doesn’t matter. It does matter and if you play live you we regret listening to your advice. I’m very disappointed that you are saying this because I know you know better. 😢 this why listening to people with a lot views means nothing today.
This is true , a good tuner is better than human ears
Anyone should hear that G at the 12th fret being a tad sharp, intonation is most important playing chords. Gotta check intonation at the 12th & the 7th (and some times even the 5th) frets to get the least amount of compromise
Clip on tuners are mostly crap,
and I can beat them easily BY EAR.
And YES i CAN hear vintage intonation....
Pro tip: PIO caps make all of this unnecessary.
😂😂😂
Of course some people hear it. I admire your absolute statement but you are wrong!
well... then... you don't pay attentions very well
Just watched the whole video...nope.
Anohter debunking video that unfortunately isn't true in practice. Not only can you hear imprecise intonation; in some cases, like electric 12-string, it often sounds better than perfect intonation. But it depends on what you play. Country guys trying to emulate pedal steel don't even need 6 saddles. But if you play chords on the higher frets, especially with open notes, oh yeah, you can hear bad intonation.
Is no one can't or you and me can't?
If you are comfortable playing a 12TET instrument, then no, you genuinely cannot hear that perfectly.
I can hear it
You and I can't.😂
OUT-TONATION is where it’s at baby ‼️
Nine out of 10 guys… And maybe 10 out of 10 girls? Actively trying to make the craziest noise they can with a guitar or doing it without even trying… And all this worry about intonation…!??!!???
The not so “great reset” is upon us and it has nothing to do with your guitar or maybe the fact that they will be deemed unnecessary and won’t be built anymore…
Or maybe the pollution from your freshly made set of steel strings, will make them impossible to get when they go to the way of the global destroyer incandescent amp tube……
The Duesenberg Crash: “Oh the humanity”, you crazy music types are losing your freedom five watts at a time….