I completely agree with you, this art looks almost like Aikido (Aikikai), and it would not be surprising if this was the main influence for Ueshiba to develop his art with the added “Aiki” methods learnt from Takeda. Also at that point Takeda had great fame as a respected martial artist, and Daiyo Ryu as a Samurai art so it would help Aikido’s credibility to claim it was developed from Daito Ryu / Takeda. Great work and research as always Chadi.
Hi @Chadi. Thank you for the great videos you make and I do really enjoy them. On this particular one I have to say that it seems to me a bit strange to point out Hontai Yoshin Ryu as a strong influence on Aikido (or even origin) just based on this one video. There is great variance between the various lineages and offshoots of Yoshin ryu. You can find similarities also between Aikido and other old jujutsu traditions like Shibukawa ryu or Yagyu Shingan ryu (which Morihei Ueshiba actually studied for some short time) and surely there might be some influences on Aikido coming from these (koshinage according to Ellis Amdur). BUT if you have a look at what Morihei Ueshiba did teach his students, you have to admit that by far the strongest influence was Daito ryu. Techniques, similarities in the training progression, even some of the kuden are virtually identical. Another thing is that comparing only what one can see from videos can be misleading, these arts often show in videos or enbu only certain aspects of the art while prefer keeping other aspects only for the inner circles. Also if you look at Morihei Ueshiba's videos, he often shows certain concepts and perhaps is trying to communicate certain ideas with what he is demonstrating, but if you study what his students had to say, it seems that what they did in the actual daily keiko is quite different than what is being presented in some of the videos or what is presented as Aikido nowadays. Another thing is that apart from Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda had also a number of other close students and there are also differences between them despite the fact that they are part of the Daito ryu family. If you compare the main line Daito ryu with Kodo Horikawa, or Sagawa-ha, Yoshida-den, Matsuda-den, Yamamoto-den, Takumakai, one can get a different picture ...
There's actually two different and unrelated branches of jujutsu called Yoshin-Ryu; Yoshin-Ryu branch from which arts like Shindo Yoshin Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu are descended from, and Tagaki/Hontai Yoshin Ryu branch, which is related to Takenouchi-Ryu. About Aikido and Hontai Yoshin Ryu connection. I don't know man, I would need some actual proof. Koryu schools usually keep strict records about people who train in them and Morihei Ueshiba is one of the most famous martial arts practioner in Japan and Hontai Yoshin Ryu is one the most famous and well known Koryu schools in Japan, so it seems unlikely that nobody would know about the connection. Also, many other Jujutsu schools also have similar techniques to Aikido. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I also don't think it's very likely.
Since I tried to find some wrestling in wado ryu, I have been reading about yoshin ryus so much)) It looks like there are no yoshin branches. Only yoshin ryu branch is takagi/hontai. Shindo yoshin ryu is absolutely fake/new style, that's why they head master sit in the USA, not Japan, and you cant find NOTHING about. Real ninjutsu school)) Creator of wado ryu Otsuka got menkjo kaiden from shindo yoshin because it was easy, that's all. There are a lot of lies about material arts in Japan, because if business. And aikido is still sucks😂
First of all, I have read a few biographies of Ueshiba and most of them tend to describe him as someone who has studied many different martial arts, when the only confirmed studies are Daito-Ryu, Sumo and Juken (rifle plus bayonet). Second and most important, both Daito-ryu and Yoshin-Ryu are very sword focused, therefore most empty-handed defenses come after wrists grab or armed attacks. So it comes natural that you find similarities. Also don't forget that during the Tokugawa shogunate (1603-1868), most of the secrecy in martial arts faded away, so there was a strong contamination between disciplines, one more reason to find analogue techniques even if Ueshiba had not studied Yoshin-Ryu directly.
Hello Chadi, thank you for the insight. The Hontai Yoshin Ryu Katas, which you had shown here (Gyaku, Nage, Oku) was created by the 17th Souke, Mr. Minaki Saburo, in the modern era (1970s). These techniques are pretty much "common" across most jujutsu styles which were active at that time, and serves as an introduction to common jujutsu techniques. It was inevitable that these techniques resembles the basic techniques of other Jujutsu styles at that time, and even with Aikido. However, the more advanced techniques in Hontai Yoshin Ryu came directly from an older school, Takagi Ryu, which Minaki Souke learned from Kakuno Happeita. The techniques of Takagi Ryu are much more distinct and one can see immediate differences when compared to Aikido. Most distinct are the utilization of 捨身技 throwing techniques sutemi waza where the defender dragged the attacker down to the ground, sacrificing his upright position to takedown his opponent (like in Judo or Wrestling). You can search 高木流柔術 九鬼神流棒術 to see more about this Takagi Ryu. Keep up the good work and insights👍
The techniques of Aikido, the syllabus, are based on Daito-ryu (ikkajo, nikajo, etc) but the footwork and body movement are different. Ueshiba's irimi-hanmi looks like Yagyu-ryu footwork, which he studied and got menkyo in 1908. His taijutsu (body movement) looks like this Hontai Yoshin-ryu, or some of the other popular jujutsu of the era. Ueshiba studied "Tenshin'yo" (sic) jujutsu (menkyo in 1901), but who knows what that looked like in Wakayama in the late 1800's. He studied Takagi Yoshin-ryu in the 1920's, concurrently with Daito-ryu which he started in 1915. Seeing how strongly his waza contrast with Daito-ryu (projections, large circular body movements, his love of koshiwaza), it would not be surprising that he integrated his previously established habits into his version of Daito-ryu. He clearly had Daito-ryu internals that are not in evidence in these demos (but they may just not show their aiki publicly).
Sorry but.. Yoshin Ryu (Akiyama lineage) and Hontai Yoshin Ryu (Oriemon Takagi lineage) are very different lineage in JP. HYR (the one in the video) is a ryuha practiced and known. Moreover, there are no links between Ueshiba's experience and this line. Please, study Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (or Serge Mol) or consult existing sources.
The origins of Aikido (or rather, Aiki-jujitsu) have already been researched extensively by people such as Ellis Amdur. We already know that various forms of jujitsu have been around for centuries, that Takeda obviously learned some of them, and made up a bunch of others, presumably so that he'd have something to sell.
Thanks for the interesting video. It is very encouraging that more and more people are becoming interested in history. You will discover even more if you read the biography of O-Sensei Minoru Hirai, the founder of Korindo Aikido, the man who gave the world the name "Aikido" when he created the Aikido Department within the Dai Nippon Butokukai.
You mention Shioda who headed the "harder" branch of Yoshinkan Aikido while Uysheba and his followers evolved the Aikikai. It's interesting to speculate that there's a connection with a precursor ryu that has a similar name and techniques, even if no documentation of a link can be found.
Here in italy, thanks to an italian sensei who is the highest dan in Europe, we have an high level of hontai yoshin ryu. The italian masters train with the soke in Japan regularly. They always point the differeces between what we are doing and aikido. Hontai is a jujutsu school, there is not aiki.
After researching Don Draeger's book it's quite possible that Ueshiba studied Yoshin -ryu. It's said he studied many styles of Jujutsu particularly during his military service. So I have to say that your assertion that Daito- ryu wasn't the only influence on Aikido is probably correct.
It could be parallel invention, in other words Ueshiba revised his art in the same way. One can see parallels all over in the martial arts. I forgot where I read it, but there was a suggestion that Ueshiba applied bagua he learned when he was in Manchuria. Who knows?! As always interesting vids and comments. Thanks for sharing thoughts and research.
If I remember correctly, Stanley Prannin of Aikidojournal believed Iriminage came from OSensei's time in Manchuria, where he must have witnessed the techniquie being performed by the Chinese.
Highly doubt it. Daito Ryu was definitely studied by Ueshiba Morihei and it was from there that he developed Aikido from. But to my knowledge, Hontai Yoshin Ryu has no records of Ueshiba's name on their list of enrolled students. And while on surface, there appears to be similarities but the overall structure of Aikido is extremely different from HYR jujutsu.
I have been practicing Aikido with the Aikikai for several years. I have recently started studying Hontai Yoshin Ryu. In my experience at first look it can seem similar to Aikido for few circular movements altought there are differencies in the tai sabaki and techniques like kote gaeshi. I have also found diffrent the way in which Tori and Uke execute the tecniques (kata). I found the Hontai Yoshin Ryu a very interesting school not only for the martial art syllabus but also for its history and its philosohy : "Hontai Yoshin Ryu (本體楊心流) is a traditional style of bujutsu (武術) ,or Japanese martial art. It is one of the few koryu (古流) or “old traditions” still in existence and is a member of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai (日本古武道協会) "(from hontaiyoshinryu.co.uk/about/) It is also really nice they way in which it is taught across the world. For more information about the Hontai Yoshin Ryu and its branches please check the following links hontaiyoshinryu.co.uk/ hontaiyoshinryu.it/home-en/ www.hontaiyoshinryu.be/ www.hontaiyoshinryu.com/ Below a very interesting video of 2nd Japanese Kobudo Demonstration (2019) ruclips.net/video/bN_IfO5u92Q/видео.html
Interesting video! One of the First Jujutsu styles I studied was Takagi Yoshin Ryu and I have worked with Takenouchi people. The techniques were the same as what I see here but the applications were small circle and not always as dynamic. Interesting to see the potential links.
Lol i know! But that's the general narrative, btw would you be up for an interview??? I'd like to talk about your background and your training and travels, you're a well rounded fighter, and it would be a pleasure to interview you.
@angel666 yeah but it's fun to bash them though because they're riding the rockstar wave right now. Criticizing them makes me feel better about my own personal failures. LOL 😆😆😆 PS. Really though the real benefit of Kano was his philosophy of education. Now that I'm older, I see that value personally, for my kids, and for society. We should base our society on physical education. The revival of physical culture was a global phenom (like the sokol movement) I think this trend influenced Kano. Budo, etiquette, competition, physical/mental development as a basis of education, that's what I think Kano's real contribution.
There is no doubt about the fact that Aikido main influence was Daito ryu. Ueshiba received the highest certification in Daito ryu (available at the time) from Sokaku Takeda, according do Katsuyuki Kondo. That being said, Daito ryu has many similar techinques to this Yoshin ryu branch. I believe this is one of the main influences in Daito ryu.
There may be some influence, just like Aikido Koshinage came from Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Lots of styles have certain basic techniques, like Kotegaeshi or Shihonage. Saying that Yoshin Ryu is where Aikido came from is like saying that your cousin is your brother. Interesting hypothesis none the less.
When it comes to questions on influence and origin, could a martial artist as studied as Ueshiba glean techniques from interactions outside of formal study such as cross-training or even astute study of competition?
You would probably find that in all the Jujutsu Ryu of Japan and those which have survived, would have similar if not the same waza. There are only so many ways a limb can be manipulated or an attack neutralised for defence with or without a weapon. I would bet they would be fundamental in any grappling self-defence art around the world...
Daito Ryu has the same techniques then Aikido.There is no doubt that Ueshiba learn from Takeda. Did you ever train in Iwama ryu Aikido? The basic training there is much like in Daito ryu more square and direct no flow and more forcefully, later you smooth that out. And also in Daito ryu on higher levels with more focus on Aiki no jutsu it can look very close to Aikido.
One of the most influential Jujutsu styles of the Edo period was Takenouchi Ryu. It is the forefather of many styles including Yoshin Ryu, Kukushin Ryu and Judo. Out of Yoshin Ryu came Tenjin Shinyo Ryo which had students in Jigorõ Kano and Morihei Ueshiba. So I think the connection you are looking for is in the Tenjin Shinjo - Yoshin - Takenouchi Ryu linage. It is sad that many modern masters never gave credit to their rich Jujutsu linages reaching back hundreds of years. Due to Japanese secrecy these modern masters obviously ceased the opportunity by bringing it into the open and taking the credit for techniques that long existed but was hidden for many years. With knowledge so easily available today history is slowly but surely rewritten
Which Daito Ryu sources have you seen Chadi? There's plenty of crossover with for instance Kondo sensei lineage Daito Ryu. All the wrist locks are there, shihonage, irimi nage-like techniques, aikinage. I agree Hontai Yoshin Ryu looks similar but I have certain I have seen these techniques (all of the them) in other koryu kata.
@@Chadi here's a video of Kondo sensei doing a demonstration of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I'm sure you'll agree a number of aikido techniques are present ruclips.net/video/zgezzfG1Rwk/видео.html
Actually this looks a lot like the first style of Jujutsu that I learnt. The second style of Jujutsu I learnt that is based of Daito Ryu is completely alien to this. I've also learnt a little Aikido because of extra study and there is a lot of crossover between Jujutsu and Aikido that if you didn't know better you wouldn't know which art it came from. Also for that matter some actions in Kung Fu (Gong Fu) and Jujutsu where you can see some cross-over again.
I am not sure if this is implied in the video but it would be not bad to clarify that Hondai Yoshin Ryu in not connected with the "original" Yoshin Ryu. However, Ueshiba studied Tenshin Shinyo Ryu for a while (I do not know if that influenced Aikido but I believe not much).
Yeah it is not directly connected, however the idea is that 1660 hontai was founded, and it looks eerily similar to aikido, I'm asking could it have a direct connection to aikido?
There are only so many ways the human body can move and be moved. Therefore there will always be similarities between the various grappling arts from all over the world.
In the late -90s we had a local event where many different styles of martial arts from local clubs got together for a two days training camp where a handfull of style held seminars. The "style" I was training at the time included both Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. We and Aikido were holding seminar and due to the "rumor" that the founder of Aikido had trained for a sensei who had menkyo in both (if I remember correctly) we ended up exploring the similarities. It was very interesting and great fun 😊
This does look a lot like pre-war Aikido, however I'm not convinced that this is the predacesor of Aikido, more than likely these two styles evolved from a common ancestor, but not one decending from the other.
I practise this amazing school for some years .Its a jujutsu school not aiki school .Maybe it seems like aikijutsu but is more stiff and very powerful schooll.HYR family is unique.
I live in denver. I went to ryushinkan years ago. The sensie lary speakman taught bujikan taijutsu but h as also taught yoshin ryu jujutsu, koryu ju taijutsu. Has anyone trained with mr. Speakman. I was told he was only person who teaches this lineage of yoshin ryu jujutsu. He said his teacher was Satoshi Goda. I cant find any info. Mr speakman retired and 1 of his students now has dojo. I trying decide between the yoshin jujutsu and a genbukan taijutsu school. Any help greatly appreciated Thank you
What most of these videos show is basics, you are not seeing the core principles and for Hontai/Motoha, the in-depth understanding of how to manipulate the human body in soft, subtle and effective ways. Nothing is new in martial arts - it is more often only re-discovered and sold as 'new' by the person who does the discovery. Bruce Lee had it right, one of the few who pulled all of the old stuff together and understood it amazingly well. He talks about concepts which exist in Hontai and other koryu JJ styles. Go back far enough and any martial art that has true background in wars and the battlefield works - unfortunately, many modern martial arts have forgotten or lost all of the core soft skills, but like to think they are more 'effective' as anything historical is useless and doesn't have a place in today's world.
I find this very interesting, as it very closely resembles the Hapkido i practice. Yong Sul Choi the founder of Hapkido was supposedly a houseboy, adopted son, live in student (who really knows) of Sokaku Takeda's and supposedly learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutus from either watching the Master teach or instructing some of the students on his own. I read somewhere that Takeda instructed never to teach the same technique in the same way twice. That leads me to believe that there are potentially a large volume of techniques that potentially encompass Daito-Ryu. It's interesting to wonder if Daito Ryu encompassed the techniques of Hontai Yoshin Ryu or if Takeda happened to observe and learn Hontai Yoshin Ryu from his travels to teach and challenge other schools perhaps. As for Ueshiba, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this theory about Aikido. It's clear that Ueshiba learned Daito Ryu and somehow incorporated the techniques of that school or Hontai Yoshin Ryu as well. I had heard that in the '30's his dojo was affectionately referred to as "Hell Dojo" as i suspect in his youth he had a taste for hard, practical training. However, my theory is that as he got older and the hard joint locks took their toll as they will, he looked to transition to a softer, healing style (Aikido) so that he could 1.) Retain students and gain more students without destroying them, and 2.) continue his own practice without the wear and tear on his body, 3.) the requirement for actual battlefield arts was dwindling and changed to a character building type of practice more consistent with the change of the Edo period. It appears that many masters do this as they gain experience and realize that their bodies won't can't handle the hard training of their youth.
'Daito ryu' is no doubt the proximate source of aikido and hence the similarities you percieve here. However, the history of Daito ryu is itself quite murky, and the notion that it was not a long tradition contrary to its official claims, but a new creation of Takeda Sokaku himself around the turn of the century is often raised -- and I see you agree. Then it wasn't necessarily a complete, fixed thing we see now at the time Ueshiba was being trained by Takeda. It is internally diverse too -- I'm not sure which Daito ryu you analyzied, I'll try to find that vid of yours, but afaik the Takumakai style should be closest, genealogically at least, to aikido. Their founders were taught 'Daito ryu' by Ueshiba first, and then Takeda took over their training. Then again, their curriculum did change too to conform with the 'mainline' Tokimune one, I think in the 80s so IDK what effect that had. Guillaume Erard seems to think not too much of an effect though. Ellis Amdur in his book 'hidden in plain sight' does note precisely Yoshin-ryu as an uncanny resemblance to techniques found in Daito-ryu as well. (and the extensive article series 'Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation' by Peter Goldsbury seems to find it quite plausible too). Takeda would have possibly even just improvised what would later ossify into katas of Daito-ryu (possibly only that introducing the changes that you note, in the process of his students systematizing it, after Ueshiba already distanced himself from Takeda -- if these really are that large) in that version of the story, but the techniques he'd use would simply be a hodge-podge of jujusu he learned over time, presumably a lot of it being Yoshin-ryu or a related style. Soo could we say that Takeda's "Daito ryu" at the time he trained Ueshiba was mostly a rebranded and remixed Yoshin-ryu or stng closely related, at least in the techinques presented?? "Once Takeda began teaching seminars, he was in the company of hundreds of men from different ryu. I do not suggest that Takeda became the student of any of these men. Rather, he observed what they did-Yoshin-ryu kata in particular, often bear particular resemblances to those in Daito-ryu-and he pirated the techniques, then later showinghis own version, without attribution, in the context of his own teaching." (HIPS, p. 90.)
Yes, and Daitory was a brand new martial art at that time, just formed by Takeda Sokaku. Ueshiba did dozens of Ju Jutsu variations. And Yoshin Ryu is one of them. And most likely Takeda tried it, too.
Interesting video. I believe you have it backwards however. Daito Ryu predates this style by many hundreds of years and, associated with the Takeda lineage as it was, probably influenced this later style. Also, there is much documentation evidencing Ueshiba's learning.
It really looks like Aikido, it can be that Morihei did study this koryu anyway I will point more to Kisshomaru since it looks even more like the Aikido he developed after becoming the head
Yes, I can see a link between the two but Daito ryu Aikijujutsu is clearly the main non-weapon koryu influence on O'Sensei's Aikido. Firstly, his association with Daito ryu, which included teaching it before breaking away from Takeda in the early 1930's, is historically undeniable. Secondly, a longtime Aikido doshi of mine (Black belt - he received his blackbelt in a mainline Daito Ryu school during a grading performed in Japan). He has identified many clear links between aikido and Daito ryu. Our dojo (affiliated with Hombu) is heavily focused on breaking balance and using atemi.
@Chadi Dear Chadi, thank you for this video. I have also a RUclips Channel but I especially speak in Italian. This said I will speak about the same argument but from a Daitō Ryū and Aikidō practitioner prospective rather than yours of a judoka. This said I will mention that the first video about this argument was from your channel. Thank you again.
@@Chadi As I said I will mention that it was an idea of yours to make such an interesting video about this argument . Thank you for all the work you are doing for us all!
I think you're right. This video shows what I learned while practicing with the North Florida Aikikiai out of FSU. They also mixed in some Judo escapes, lifts, and throws as well. We also learned some sword, knife, staff, and strategic striking techniues early on. But all without the type of, "Sparring", I was used to in other styles. Perhaps they were actually teaching the style described in this video.They did emphasize that they were teaching a very, "Traditional Style". Is that what they meant? But the energy of the instructors was very Loving and Compasionate all the while. They did not bully nor tolerate bullies. That's what makes training in Aikido so great, it can correct your atittude. You really your stuff Chadi. You've made a Respectable Channel.😎👍🏾
Nowadays there are many "masters" of aiki-jitsu. The only aiki-jitsu or aiki-jujitsu is daito ryu aiki-jujitsu, a jujitsu (or jiu jitsu) style. That's not a different martial arts. Anyway, i didn t know much about yoshin ryu. Thanks for this video
The suffix you are looking for is: -Jutsu. Jutsu, Jutsu, Jutsu. Jitsu means truth and it the wrong bloody prefix and Jiu means absolutely nothing it doesn't exist in any language well except maybe in Sanskrit where I think it means Girl, so Jiu Jitsu means girl truth. Jutsu means art. The Flexible art or soft art. Damn the bloody Gracies for stuffing up the spelling.
@@vaughanmacegan4012 thank you! But Is not Just a gracie fault, in my country , Italy, we Always said ju jitsu. now we are evolved too in "jiu jitsu"....
Nah. Speculation. A theory without facts and evidence. Suggest reading Ellis Amdur's book Hidden in Plain Sight. Deeply researched (by people who read, write and speak Japanese) as to precisely what Ueshiba Morihei studied and what he believed Aikido to be. Having met his son and a number of his direct students .... this theory is fantasy. Can't win on every video.
I'm a Hapkido teacher 40 yrs and this is close to Hapkido as well being more straight forward. Though some like to say Hapkido is Daito Ryu I never felt it was, this to me looks closer.
They call themselves a Kobudo on their website. That pretty much solves then imo. Aikido is mainly for use considering weapons, though when combined with another unarmed art, Judo or Karate for example, it can be used as supplement.
I been fasting this month so I been quite preoccupied with that, but I think you're on the right tracks and I think sumo wrestling one of aikido's earliest roots, would be interesting if you looked into that as well. I will pass on this video to one aikidoka I think is well educated on this matter his channel is called chushintani
@@Chadi thx Chadi, you muslim as well? Inshaallah after Ramadan I will get into your researching and see if I can add my two cents as they say. I surely like your scientific approach to martial arts and yes there's a lot of hearsay and myth concerning all traditional martial arts.
@@Chadi Mashaallah, maybe you will join us one day brother, I see you have good character. Respect Chadi. I'm staying tuned in to your research and thank you so much for providing deep content.
In my opinion the different schools of traditional jiujitsu, despite their differences, share a set of basic techniques and principles. a sort of common alphabet if we want to use a metaphor, whose letters are used by different ryus to compose different words and phrases (kata). aikido deriving from jiujitsu has inherited this alphabet and in fact all the techniques of jujitsu are or can be included in aikido (that’s why some techniques like the ones in the video and others like kito ryu’s techniques etc look like aikido) but the thing that makes aikido what it is and therefore different from jiujitsu is not the technique but the way to interpret it and still more the purpose of practicing it: no longer in terms of antagonism and victory / defeat dualism but in order to transcend the logic of confrontation and competition towards an idea of cooperation and harmony. In my opinion, the peculiarity of aikido lies in having transcended the legacy left by all these budo schools and have become a form of spiritual budo. By the way thanks for sharing it and congratulations to Chadi for his wonderful channel
Actually it's Kukishin ryu. a Sogo Bujutsu system. very simialr to HYR, Ueshiba first Dojo was called Kukishin and he studied at the tenshin Hoyo Kukishin Dojo, curesty of Takaharu Dono
All martial arts, whether Eastern or Western, were all based on sword and spear techniques. There's only so many ways a human being can move without breaking a limb. This is precisely why Bruce Lee concluded in his own research, that he does not believe in styles.
There was almost certainly some cross pollination between many of the various jujutsu ryu-ha. This demo certainly does have some similarities to Daito Ryu, and therefore, aikido. However, Ueshiba’s training in Daito Ryu is impeccably documented by both first person accounts and Sokaku Takeda’s eimeiroku (which show not only the extent of Ueshiba’s DR training, but also that he was given a Kyoju Dairi teaching license by Takeda). If anything, I would think that Sokaku would have been the culprit of “stealing” techniques and/or stylistic/aesthetic nuances from other ryu-ha and integrating them into his Daito Ryu. In his youth, Sokaku famously went on a period of austere training where he traveled, fought, and trained at the schools of many teachers/styles (not an uncommon practice of the time). Perhaps he spent some time with Hontai Yoshin Ryu.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is much evidence that Morihai Ueshiba studied Daito-ryu and that the certificates that he gave to his students prior to renaming his art Aikido carried the Daito-ryu tittle. Gozo Shioda of Yoshinkan fame is an example. His certificates from Ueshiba say Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Here, there is a direct line from A to B. Clearly there are similarities between Hontai Yoshin ryu and Daito-ryu, at least in the video presented here. As such, there will definitely be similarities between Aikido and Hontai Yoshin ryu. In the 20 plus years I've been studying Daito-ryu, I've never heard of a Ueshiba Hontai Yoshin ryu connection. It is in an interesting theory, in much the same way that the Ellis Amdur (I think it originated with Ellis Amdur? I could be wrong.) theory of the inclusion of Bagua in AIkido is. Again, there is no evidence of this past conjecture. I would think the place to begin an actual investigation would be with the school's eimeiroku around the pre-war time frame.
I am surprised with this video. Contrary to most Aikido demonstrations, the way most techniques here are shown, manifest that its creators had a decent level of understanding (of course putting it in proper perspective) in regards to fighting. We somewhat see might on might, subtleness, more quick to the point defense. I don't agree with all the logic used in the techniques, but if you ask me, this system is much better than Aikido in understanding combat, but most likely just as poor in training methodology. Different times, different mindset, different applicatioms.
These are techniques added in later years and specific to "Hontai Yoshin Ryu" during the 20th century and were part of "Taido". These are not old. My source? Takagi Yoshin ryu. These do not exist in old documents on the school.
I disagree. Daito ryu looks much closer to Aki-Kai Aikido than these Hontai Yoshin Ryu videos. I just don’t see it. This style has very little flow. The is no timing here at all. Aikido and Judo do intersect with Tomiki’s Shodokan Aikido. It’s a shame that the Aiki-kai schools totally rejected Tomiki’s contribution of Aikido sparring and the adaption of Kano’s Judo syllabus for Aikido training. The result of Tokyo Honbu’s. rejection of Shodokan has been twofold: Aiki-kai style has become a dance, as Shodokan has continued to develop counters and actual timing required in sparring, and applications in the “real” world. Hakama is no longer worn in Shodokan at any. level.
I love your work @chadi but i think is wrong and in certain cases even dangerous since we could spread false information that can confuse people about the origins of a martial art and within this the valoration of that martial art. A lot of martial arts claim to best than others only for being the predecesor art. Examples: 1. Jujutsu / JiuJitsu: especialy fake western schools claims to be better than judo and bjj only for being the father of both (funny if we think that these styles are usually a mix of modern judo, aikido, karate and even bjj). 2. Shuai Jiao: some practicioners think and say that judo, a very similar looking art, is a mere copy of it. Deniying the highly documented story of Jigoro Kano. 3. Some BJJ guys don't like the brazilian identity of their art and try to avoid calling it "brazilian". If we add that many of them still don't know the fact that bjj comes from judo what we've got is a lot of confused people practicing bjj (that come from judo) but thinking that what they do is JiuJitsu (father of judo). Another posibility is that for bjj guys is more "cool" to say that they are a descendent art of samurai jujutsu (used in wars) rather than a modern and safe sport called judo. It's okay to search information and don't keep only with the things we already know, but we have to be carefoul cause some people try to use this confuse others and defame other arts in favor of theirs. That's what i think.
Well it's my point as well for Aikido what made me thinking is that I never saw from older day Aikido be tought for free or getting away from shintoism it all looked like rituals than fighting which made me think that something is amiss, Morihei Ueshiba while was a true warrior seems like he used the religion beliefs of high status Japanese families more than his fighting and technique to make aikido successful as buissness and then he sold oriental mysticism to the westerners to make more . When I started training inside n aikido dojo mostly for the machinery I said wth I can try, but I had already bjj, jj, pancrace and kickboxing background so when I got shown a technique in which you turn your back to the oponent and another that I was said to keep a coin on someone's wrist to follow his movement so his technique to work was just too much for me. The real thing about aikido though is that there are ppl that have the will and wanna do martial arts to learn self discipline, self betterment and protect themselves and others in times of need, it can evolve to something better and make up for the mistakes of the past if the today masters want.
@@Chadi it's sad though if you think how many arts, disciplines etc got lost because they didn't evolve or because ego, money etc got in the way, If you see ninjutsu it did the same, they sold mysticism, secret techniques and now it lost credibility, same with Kung fu, wing Chun and other stuff, they lose credibility as time passes and they are forced to evolve, in the end only what is true will remain. I believe that the practical MA and the sport aspect must separate itself from tradition and culture , a dance is not fighting, your fighting philosophy must translate to reality, if not youre either a fool or a liar. When I was a kid I imagined myself as a Ninja, samurai, wizard, knight and I made up those stories of me being a hero though I wasnt , it was not bad, but as time passed I understood that in order to be a hero for your story you must be real first.
" he used the religion beliefs of high status Japanese families more than his fighting and technique to make aikido successful as buissness and then he sold oriental mysticism to the westerners to make more " Man that is nothing but talking out of your ass. Did you ever read any thing about Ueshiba? I dont think so! He was a deeply religious person and wasnt rich not even wealthy. Even in old age he grow his own vegtables on his own farm. Man you are unbelievable!
@@Gieszkanne Well, I have held similiar stories to this. Another one being he wanted to stop giving money to his higher ups in Daito Ryu and to do this he "invented" his own martial art and religious backstory to do this and keep all the money. Was he religious, yes! Was he frustrated about war, the atomic bomb, and other things, yes. Would he invent a system to spite the higher-ups, what do you think?
The misinformation on Japanese traditions seem to be aplenty just look at the work that Anthony Cummings has done on ninjutsu he had to waide thru a sea of hearsay miss info and flat out lies he disproved the myth of bujin kan and has shone that historical ninjutsu was not a martial art and it was easier for a shinobi to learn already proven martial arts then make a whole new Ryu. I'm a former Aikidoka of 4 years and this video looks like Aikido to me
So he "found out" what was no secret at all. No one ever said the Nin jutsu is a martial art. Its the whole Art of a Ninja. Even in Bujinkan the martial arts have differnte names. Yes it teaches 9 differnt martial arts.
Origins.? Well, since everyone of these individuals demonstrating don’t even have an Aikido shodans ability, if this is an aikido origin, then Aikido improved it😆😆
There’s just something about Aikido that doesn’t interest me.... It’s not not like Judo and much less my other favorite sport of Boxing. It doesn’t have that “Winning” factor. I’m talking about a sense of accomplishment after defeating the opponent. From my observation, it’s just “m’eh.” Also, what exactly is it’s selling point? Steven Segal? 😂🤦♂️ I’ll stick to Judo, Thank you very much.
I completely agree with you, this art looks almost like Aikido (Aikikai), and it would not be surprising if this was the main influence for Ueshiba to develop his art with the added “Aiki” methods learnt from Takeda.
Also at that point Takeda had great fame as a respected martial artist, and Daiyo Ryu as a Samurai art so it would help Aikido’s credibility to claim it was developed from Daito Ryu / Takeda.
Great work and research as always Chadi.
Hi @Chadi. Thank you for the great videos you make and I do really enjoy them. On this particular one I have to say that it seems to me a bit strange to point out Hontai Yoshin Ryu as a strong influence on Aikido (or even origin) just based on this one video.
There is great variance between the various lineages and offshoots of Yoshin ryu. You can find similarities also between Aikido and other old jujutsu traditions like Shibukawa ryu or Yagyu Shingan ryu (which Morihei Ueshiba actually studied for some short time) and surely there might be some influences on Aikido coming from these (koshinage according to Ellis Amdur).
BUT if you have a look at what Morihei Ueshiba did teach his students, you have to admit that by far the strongest influence was Daito ryu. Techniques, similarities in the training progression, even some of the kuden are virtually identical.
Another thing is that comparing only what one can see from videos can be misleading, these arts often show in videos or enbu only certain aspects of the art while prefer keeping other aspects only for the inner circles. Also if you look at Morihei Ueshiba's videos, he often shows certain concepts and perhaps is trying to communicate certain ideas with what he is demonstrating, but if you study what his students had to say, it seems that what they did in the actual daily keiko is quite different than what is being presented in some of the videos or what is presented as Aikido nowadays.
Another thing is that apart from Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda had also a number of other close students and there are also differences between them despite the fact that they are part of the Daito ryu family. If you compare the main line Daito ryu with Kodo Horikawa, or Sagawa-ha, Yoshida-den, Matsuda-den, Yamamoto-den, Takumakai, one can get a different picture ...
Thank you for your insight
There's actually two different and unrelated branches of jujutsu called Yoshin-Ryu; Yoshin-Ryu branch from which arts like Shindo Yoshin Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu are descended from, and Tagaki/Hontai Yoshin Ryu branch, which is related to Takenouchi-Ryu.
About Aikido and Hontai Yoshin Ryu connection. I don't know man, I would need some actual proof. Koryu schools usually keep strict records about people who train in them and Morihei Ueshiba is one of the most famous martial arts practioner in Japan and Hontai Yoshin Ryu is one the most famous and well known Koryu schools in Japan, so it seems unlikely that nobody would know about the connection. Also, many other Jujutsu schools also have similar techniques to Aikido. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I also don't think it's very likely.
Samu Vähäkangas O’Senei studied Takenouchi Ryu.
Ueshiba DID study Kukishin ryu, which in itself DOES have a connection to Takagi Yoshin ryu.
Samu hommaa oikeesti toimiva harrastus. Aikido on periaatteessa vaan toiveajattelua.
@@perttuhurskainen8400 En harrasta aikidoa.
Since I tried to find some wrestling in wado ryu, I have been reading about yoshin ryus so much)) It looks like there are no yoshin branches. Only yoshin ryu branch is takagi/hontai. Shindo yoshin ryu is absolutely fake/new style, that's why they head master sit in the USA, not Japan, and you cant find NOTHING about. Real ninjutsu school)) Creator of wado ryu Otsuka got menkjo kaiden from shindo yoshin because it was easy, that's all. There are a lot of lies about material arts in Japan, because if business. And aikido is still sucks😂
First of all, I have read a few biographies of Ueshiba and most of them tend to describe him as someone who has studied many different martial arts, when the only confirmed studies are
Daito-Ryu, Sumo and Juken (rifle plus bayonet). Second and most important, both Daito-ryu and Yoshin-Ryu are very sword focused, therefore most empty-handed defenses come after wrists
grab or armed attacks. So it comes natural that you find similarities. Also don't forget that during the Tokugawa shogunate (1603-1868), most of the secrecy in martial arts faded away, so there was a strong contamination between disciplines, one more reason to find analogue techniques even if Ueshiba had not studied Yoshin-Ryu directly.
Hello Chadi, thank you for the insight.
The Hontai Yoshin Ryu Katas, which you had shown here (Gyaku, Nage, Oku) was created by the 17th Souke, Mr. Minaki Saburo, in the modern era (1970s). These techniques are pretty much "common" across most jujutsu styles which were active at that time, and serves as an introduction to common jujutsu techniques. It was inevitable that these techniques resembles the basic techniques of other Jujutsu styles at that time, and even with Aikido.
However, the more advanced techniques in Hontai Yoshin Ryu came directly from an older school, Takagi Ryu, which Minaki Souke learned from Kakuno Happeita. The techniques of Takagi Ryu are much more distinct and one can see immediate differences when compared to Aikido.
Most distinct are the utilization of 捨身技 throwing techniques sutemi waza where the defender dragged the attacker down to the ground, sacrificing his upright position to takedown his opponent (like in Judo or Wrestling).
You can search 高木流柔術 九鬼神流棒術 to see more about this Takagi Ryu.
Keep up the good work and insights👍
The techniques of Aikido, the syllabus, are based on Daito-ryu (ikkajo, nikajo, etc) but the footwork and body movement are different. Ueshiba's irimi-hanmi looks like Yagyu-ryu footwork, which he studied and got menkyo in 1908. His taijutsu (body movement) looks like this Hontai Yoshin-ryu, or some of the other popular jujutsu of the era. Ueshiba studied "Tenshin'yo" (sic) jujutsu (menkyo in 1901), but who knows what that looked like in Wakayama in the late 1800's. He studied Takagi Yoshin-ryu in the 1920's, concurrently with Daito-ryu which he started in 1915. Seeing how strongly his waza contrast with Daito-ryu (projections, large circular body movements, his love of koshiwaza), it would not be surprising that he integrated his previously established habits into his version of Daito-ryu. He clearly had Daito-ryu internals that are not in evidence in these demos (but they may just not show their aiki publicly).
Sorry but.. Yoshin Ryu (Akiyama lineage) and Hontai Yoshin Ryu (Oriemon Takagi lineage) are very different lineage in JP.
HYR (the one in the video) is a ryuha practiced and known. Moreover, there are no links between Ueshiba's experience and this line.
Please, study Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (or Serge Mol) or consult existing sources.
The origins of Aikido (or rather, Aiki-jujitsu) have already been researched extensively by people such as Ellis Amdur. We already know that various forms of jujitsu have been around for centuries, that Takeda obviously learned some of them, and made up a bunch of others, presumably so that he'd have something to sell.
Thank you for your insight
Agree with that
true although a bit negative and disrespectful.
Thanks for the interesting video. It is very encouraging that more and more people are becoming interested in history. You will discover even more if you read the biography of O-Sensei Minoru Hirai, the founder of Korindo Aikido, the man who gave the world the name "Aikido" when he created the Aikido Department within the Dai Nippon Butokukai.
Daito Ryu was the original technique Ueshiba has been trainned by Sokaku Takeda. Very similar to Yoshin.
Daito Ryu is a school that has no historical documentation outside of Takeda Sokaku in the 20th century, incidentally. Might be something to consider.
You mention Shioda who headed the "harder" branch of Yoshinkan Aikido while Uysheba and his followers evolved the Aikikai. It's interesting to speculate that there's a connection with a precursor ryu that has a similar name and techniques, even if no documentation of a link can be found.
Here in italy, thanks to an italian sensei who is the highest dan in Europe, we have an high level of hontai yoshin ryu. The italian masters train with the soke in Japan regularly. They always point the differeces between what we are doing and aikido. Hontai is a jujutsu school, there is not aiki.
Sensei Stelvio my sensei.
After researching Don Draeger's book it's quite possible that Ueshiba studied Yoshin -ryu. It's said he studied many styles of Jujutsu particularly during his military service. So I have to say that your assertion that Daito- ryu wasn't the only influence on Aikido is probably correct.
Thank you for this! After so many false narratives in the martial arts world, you question everything at this point
It could be parallel invention, in other words Ueshiba revised his art in the same way.
One can see parallels all over in the martial arts. I forgot where I read it, but there was a suggestion that Ueshiba applied bagua he learned when he was in Manchuria.
Who knows?! As always interesting vids and comments. Thanks for sharing thoughts and research.
Thank you John!
If I remember correctly, Stanley Prannin of Aikidojournal believed Iriminage came from OSensei's time in Manchuria, where he must have witnessed the techniquie being performed by the Chinese.
Wow! Chadi did it again... I've never heard of this art
If it is, then I am glad that o-sensei introduced mats into the dojo. I wouldn’t want to be doing breakfalls onto that wooden floor.
Highly doubt it. Daito Ryu was definitely studied by Ueshiba Morihei and it was from there that he developed Aikido from. But to my knowledge, Hontai Yoshin Ryu has no records of Ueshiba's name on their list of enrolled students. And while on surface, there appears to be similarities but the overall structure of Aikido is extremely different from HYR jujutsu.
I have been practicing Aikido with the Aikikai for several years. I have recently started studying Hontai Yoshin Ryu. In my experience at first look it can seem similar to Aikido for few circular movements altought there are differencies in the tai sabaki and techniques like kote gaeshi. I have also found diffrent the way in which Tori and Uke execute the tecniques (kata).
I found the Hontai Yoshin Ryu a very interesting school not only for the martial art syllabus but also for its history and its philosohy :
"Hontai Yoshin Ryu (本體楊心流) is a traditional style of bujutsu (武術) ,or Japanese martial art. It is one of the few koryu (古流) or “old traditions” still in existence and is a member of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai (日本古武道協会) "(from hontaiyoshinryu.co.uk/about/)
It is also really nice they way in which it is taught across the world.
For more information about the Hontai Yoshin Ryu and its branches please check the following links
hontaiyoshinryu.co.uk/
hontaiyoshinryu.it/home-en/
www.hontaiyoshinryu.be/
www.hontaiyoshinryu.com/
Below a very interesting video of 2nd Japanese Kobudo Demonstration (2019)
ruclips.net/video/bN_IfO5u92Q/видео.html
Will check
Tomiki aikido looks EXACTLY like this. Tomiki aikido is very compact and incorporates striking to set up throws and joint locks.
Interesting video! One of the First Jujutsu styles I studied was Takagi Yoshin Ryu and I have worked with Takenouchi people. The techniques were the same as what I see here but the applications were small circle and not always as dynamic. Interesting to see the potential links.
Thanks for sharing!
Lol 100 % sure Gracies didn't invent leverage
Lol i know! But that's the general narrative, btw would you be up for an interview??? I'd like to talk about your background and your training and travels, you're a well rounded fighter, and it would be a pleasure to interview you.
The Gracies invented gravity, hence their ground game.
@angel666 yeah but it's fun to bash them though because they're riding the rockstar wave right now. Criticizing them makes me feel better about my own personal failures. LOL 😆😆😆
PS. Really though the real benefit of Kano was his philosophy of education. Now that I'm older, I see that value personally, for my kids, and for society. We should base our society on physical education. The revival of physical culture was a global phenom (like the sokol movement) I think this trend influenced Kano.
Budo, etiquette, competition, physical/mental development as a basis of education, that's what I think Kano's real contribution.
@angel666 That whole Fusen Ryu thing is a furphy as well! Damn the Gracies for their lies and their inability to give their style the correct name.
@angel666 I would give you top marks but the correct spelling is Jujutsu. Jitsu and Jutsu are two completely different words with different meanings.
There is no doubt about the fact that Aikido main influence was Daito ryu. Ueshiba received the highest certification in Daito ryu (available at the time) from Sokaku Takeda, according do Katsuyuki Kondo. That being said, Daito ryu has many similar techinques to this Yoshin ryu branch. I believe this is one of the main influences in Daito ryu.
The most impressive part is falling on the hardwood floor.
There may be some influence, just like Aikido Koshinage came from Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Lots of styles have certain basic techniques, like Kotegaeshi or Shihonage. Saying that Yoshin Ryu is where Aikido came from is like saying that your cousin is your brother. Interesting hypothesis none the less.
Sure!! A different ryuha doesn't necessarily mean different techniques
When it comes to questions on influence and origin, could a martial artist as studied as Ueshiba glean techniques from interactions outside of formal study such as cross-training or even astute study of competition?
You would probably find that in all the Jujutsu Ryu of Japan and those which have survived, would have similar if not the same waza. There are only so many ways a limb can be manipulated or an attack neutralised for defence with or without a weapon. I would bet they would be fundamental in any grappling self-defence art around the world...
Daito Ryu has the same techniques then Aikido.There is no doubt that Ueshiba learn from Takeda. Did you ever train in Iwama ryu Aikido? The basic training there is much like in Daito ryu more square and direct no flow and more forcefully, later you smooth that out. And also in Daito ryu on higher levels with more focus on Aiki no jutsu it can look very close to Aikido.
One of the most influential Jujutsu styles of the Edo period was Takenouchi Ryu. It is the forefather of many styles including Yoshin Ryu, Kukushin Ryu and Judo. Out of Yoshin Ryu came Tenjin Shinyo Ryo which had students in Jigorõ Kano and Morihei Ueshiba. So I think the connection you are looking for is in the Tenjin Shinjo - Yoshin - Takenouchi Ryu linage. It is sad that many modern masters never gave credit to their rich Jujutsu linages reaching back hundreds of years. Due to Japanese secrecy these modern masters obviously ceased the opportunity by bringing it into the open and taking the credit for techniques that long existed but was hidden for many years. With knowledge so easily available today history is slowly but surely rewritten
Which Daito Ryu sources have you seen Chadi? There's plenty of crossover with for instance Kondo sensei lineage Daito Ryu. All the wrist locks are there, shihonage, irimi nage-like techniques, aikinage. I agree Hontai Yoshin Ryu looks similar but I have certain I have seen these techniques (all of the them) in other koryu kata.
I have seen the Takeda Daito Ryu
@@Chadi here's a video of Kondo sensei doing a demonstration of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I'm sure you'll agree a number of aikido techniques are present ruclips.net/video/zgezzfG1Rwk/видео.html
All ryu have the same techniques, they only 'feel' different ryu=flow
Actually this looks a lot like the first style of Jujutsu that I learnt. The second style of Jujutsu I learnt that is based of Daito Ryu is completely alien to this. I've also learnt a little Aikido because of extra study and there is a lot of crossover between Jujutsu and Aikido that if you didn't know better you wouldn't know which art it came from. Also for that matter some actions in Kung Fu (Gong Fu) and Jujutsu where you can see some cross-over again.
I am not sure if this is implied in the video but it would be not bad to clarify that Hondai Yoshin Ryu in not connected with the "original" Yoshin Ryu. However, Ueshiba studied Tenshin Shinyo Ryu for a while (I do not know if that influenced Aikido but I believe not much).
Yeah it is not directly connected, however the idea is that 1660 hontai was founded, and it looks eerily similar to aikido, I'm asking could it have a direct connection to aikido?
This looks more like Daito Ryu. Since this is older than Daito Ryu maybe this style influenced Takeda Sensei and in turn influence Ueshiba Sensei.
I love what you are doing. Keep up the good work..
There are only so many ways the human body can move and be moved. Therefore there will always be similarities between the various grappling arts from all over the world.
In the late -90s we had a local event where many different styles of martial arts from local clubs got together for a two days training camp where a handfull of style held seminars. The "style" I was training at the time included both Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. We and Aikido were holding seminar and due to the "rumor" that the founder of Aikido had trained for a sensei who had menkyo in both (if I remember correctly) we ended up exploring the similarities. It was very interesting and great fun 😊
This does look a lot like pre-war Aikido, however I'm not convinced that this is the predacesor of Aikido, more than likely these two styles evolved from a common ancestor, but not one decending from the other.
I practise this amazing school for some years .Its a jujutsu school not aiki school .Maybe it seems like aikijutsu but is more stiff and very powerful schooll.HYR family is unique.
I live in denver. I went to ryushinkan years ago. The sensie lary speakman taught bujikan taijutsu but h as also taught yoshin ryu jujutsu, koryu ju taijutsu. Has anyone trained with mr. Speakman. I was told he was only person who teaches this lineage of yoshin ryu jujutsu. He said his teacher was Satoshi Goda. I cant find any info. Mr speakman retired and 1 of his students now has dojo. I trying decide between the yoshin jujutsu and a genbukan taijutsu school.
Any help greatly appreciated
Thank you
unfortunatly no it's pretty difficult to get clear Information about traditionnal Ju- jutsu... I hope to write a book about that !
What most of these videos show is basics, you are not seeing the core principles and for Hontai/Motoha, the in-depth understanding of how to manipulate the human body in soft, subtle and effective ways. Nothing is new in martial arts - it is more often only re-discovered and sold as 'new' by the person who does the discovery. Bruce Lee had it right, one of the few who pulled all of the old stuff together and understood it amazingly well. He talks about concepts which exist in Hontai and other koryu JJ styles.
Go back far enough and any martial art that has true background in wars and the battlefield works - unfortunately, many modern martial arts have forgotten or lost all of the core soft skills, but like to think they are more 'effective' as anything historical is useless and doesn't have a place in today's world.
Very interesting and informative.
Thank you Mark
Gozo Shioda's style: Yoshin kan
This: Yoshin ryu
Do they use the same kanji?
I find this very interesting, as it very closely resembles the Hapkido i practice. Yong Sul Choi the founder of Hapkido was supposedly a houseboy, adopted son, live in student (who really knows) of Sokaku Takeda's and supposedly learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutus from either watching the Master teach or instructing some of the students on his own. I read somewhere that Takeda instructed never to teach the same technique in the same way twice. That leads me to believe that there are potentially a large volume of techniques that potentially encompass Daito-Ryu. It's interesting to wonder if Daito Ryu encompassed the techniques of Hontai Yoshin Ryu or if Takeda happened to observe and learn Hontai Yoshin Ryu from his travels to teach and challenge other schools perhaps. As for Ueshiba, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this theory about Aikido. It's clear that Ueshiba learned Daito Ryu and somehow incorporated the techniques of that school or Hontai Yoshin Ryu as well. I had heard that in the '30's his dojo was affectionately referred to as "Hell Dojo" as i suspect in his youth he had a taste for hard, practical training. However, my theory is that as he got older and the hard joint locks took their toll as they will, he looked to transition to a softer, healing style (Aikido) so that he could 1.) Retain students and gain more students without destroying them, and 2.) continue his own practice without the wear and tear on his body, 3.) the requirement for actual battlefield arts was dwindling and changed to a character building type of practice more consistent with the change of the Edo period. It appears that many masters do this as they gain experience and realize that their bodies won't can't handle the hard training of their youth.
As a novice in Aikido, only Niidan, I can see techniques from which it evolved. Thanks again, Chadi. Outstanding, comme d'habitude.
Thank you, today's video is aikido related
'Daito ryu' is no doubt the proximate source of aikido and hence the similarities you percieve here. However, the history of Daito ryu is itself quite murky, and the notion that it was not a long tradition contrary to its official claims, but a new creation of Takeda Sokaku himself around the turn of the century is often raised -- and I see you agree. Then it wasn't necessarily a complete, fixed thing we see now at the time Ueshiba was being trained by Takeda. It is internally diverse too -- I'm not sure which Daito ryu you analyzied, I'll try to find that vid of yours, but afaik the Takumakai style should be closest, genealogically at least, to aikido. Their founders were taught 'Daito ryu' by Ueshiba first, and then Takeda took over their training. Then again, their curriculum did change too to conform with the 'mainline' Tokimune one, I think in the 80s so IDK what effect that had. Guillaume Erard seems to think not too much of an effect though.
Ellis Amdur in his book 'hidden in plain sight' does note precisely Yoshin-ryu as an uncanny resemblance to techniques found in Daito-ryu as well. (and the extensive article series 'Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation' by Peter Goldsbury seems to find it quite plausible too).
Takeda would have possibly even just improvised what would later ossify into katas of Daito-ryu (possibly only that introducing the changes that you note, in the process of his students systematizing it, after Ueshiba already distanced himself from Takeda -- if these really are that large) in that version of the story, but the techniques he'd use would simply be a hodge-podge of jujusu he learned over time, presumably a lot of it being Yoshin-ryu or a related style.
Soo could we say that Takeda's "Daito ryu" at the time he trained Ueshiba was mostly a rebranded and remixed Yoshin-ryu or stng closely related, at least in the techinques presented??
"Once Takeda began teaching seminars, he was in the company of hundreds of men from different ryu. I do not suggest that Takeda became the student of any of these men. Rather, he observed what they did-Yoshin-ryu kata in particular, often bear particular resemblances to those in Daito-ryu-and he pirated the techniques, then later showinghis own version, without attribution, in the context of his own teaching." (HIPS, p. 90.)
DaitoRyu Aikijuijutsu the parent art taught to Ueshiba by Great Grandmaster Takeda. That was the origin.
Yes, and Daitory was a brand new martial art at that time, just formed by Takeda Sokaku. Ueshiba did dozens of Ju Jutsu variations. And Yoshin Ryu is one of them. And most likely Takeda tried it, too.
Interesting video. I believe you have it backwards however. Daito Ryu predates this style by many hundreds of years and, associated with the Takeda lineage as it was, probably influenced this later style. Also, there is much documentation evidencing Ueshiba's learning.
Daito Ryu was Takada's invention. Where it's roots are is open to discussion.
@@stuartrose5938 So true! I'm more inclined to say maybe this style influenced Takeda Sensei that influenced Ueshiba Sensei
Honestly from looking again their self defence atemi waza works looks really good!!
It's super cool as a kata form
It really looks like Aikido, it can be that Morihei did study this koryu anyway I will point more to Kisshomaru since it looks even more like the Aikido he developed after becoming the head
What did this “style “ evolve from?
Yes, I can see a link between the two but Daito ryu Aikijujutsu is clearly the main non-weapon koryu influence on O'Sensei's Aikido. Firstly, his association with Daito ryu, which included teaching it before breaking away from Takeda in the early 1930's, is historically undeniable. Secondly, a longtime Aikido doshi of mine (Black belt - he received his blackbelt in a mainline Daito Ryu school during a grading performed in Japan). He has identified many clear links between aikido and Daito ryu. Our dojo (affiliated with Hombu) is heavily focused on breaking balance and using atemi.
@Chadi Dear Chadi, thank you for this video. I have also a RUclips Channel but I especially speak in Italian. This said I will speak about the same argument but from a Daitō Ryū and Aikidō practitioner prospective rather than yours of a judoka. This said I will mention that the first video about this argument was from your channel. Thank you again.
Sure, I appreciate it
@@Chadi As I said I will mention that it was an idea of yours to make such an interesting video about this argument . Thank you for all the work you are doing for us all!
I think you're right. This video shows what I learned while practicing with the North Florida Aikikiai out of FSU. They also mixed in some Judo escapes, lifts, and throws as well. We also learned some sword, knife, staff, and strategic striking techniues early on. But all without the type of, "Sparring", I was used to in other styles.
Perhaps they were actually teaching the style described in this video.They did emphasize that they were teaching a very, "Traditional Style". Is that what they meant? But the energy of the instructors was very Loving and Compasionate all the while. They did not bully nor tolerate bullies. That's what makes training in Aikido so great, it can correct your atittude.
You really your stuff Chadi. You've made a Respectable Channel.😎👍🏾
Thank you so much i really appreciate it
Chadi
Can you give more references of the video used (like date, martial artists, name and even the full video link)?
ruclips.net/video/40ei4gWM6ss/видео.html
I think that is it.
Nowadays there are many "masters" of aiki-jitsu. The only aiki-jitsu or aiki-jujitsu is daito ryu aiki-jujitsu, a jujitsu (or jiu jitsu) style. That's not a different martial arts. Anyway, i didn t know much about yoshin ryu. Thanks for this video
The suffix you are looking for is: -Jutsu. Jutsu, Jutsu, Jutsu.
Jitsu means truth and it the wrong bloody prefix and Jiu means absolutely nothing it doesn't exist in any language well except maybe in Sanskrit where I think it means Girl, so Jiu Jitsu means girl truth. Jutsu means art. The Flexible art or soft art. Damn the bloody Gracies for stuffing up the spelling.
@@vaughanmacegan4012 thank you! But Is not Just a gracie fault, in my country , Italy, we Always said ju jitsu. now we are evolved too in "jiu jitsu"....
I have heard over the years (since the 1970's) that Shioda's Yoshinkai was the "hard style" original Aikido.
I can’t find that video u did on Aiki Jutsu. Can give me the link. Please. Thank u
ruclips.net/video/5Y0JlWdCXAQ/видео.html
Nah. Speculation. A theory without facts and evidence. Suggest reading Ellis Amdur's book Hidden in Plain Sight. Deeply researched (by people who read, write and speak Japanese) as to precisely what Ueshiba Morihei studied and what he believed Aikido to be. Having met his son and a number of his direct students .... this theory is fantasy. Can't win on every video.
I'm a Hapkido teacher 40 yrs and this is close to Hapkido as well being more straight forward. Though some like to say Hapkido is Daito Ryu I never felt it was, this to me looks closer.
Same thought! That's why i showed this and opened this discussion
They call themselves a Kobudo on their website. That pretty much solves then imo. Aikido is mainly for use considering weapons, though when combined with another unarmed art, Judo or Karate for example, it can be used as supplement.
Chadi I believe you are correct; the two art extremely similar. Thank you once again for sharing your labor of love.
I been fasting this month so I been quite preoccupied with that, but I think you're on the right tracks and I think sumo wrestling one of aikido's earliest roots, would be interesting if you looked into that as well. I will pass on this video to one aikidoka I think is well educated on this matter his channel is called chushintani
Thank you! And Ramadan Kareem to you and your family
@@Chadi thx Chadi, you muslim as well? Inshaallah after Ramadan I will get into your researching and see if I can add my two cents as they say. I surely like your scientific approach to martial arts and yes there's a lot of hearsay and myth concerning all traditional martial arts.
No I'm not muslim, but grew up knowing a lot of muslim people and made wonderful friends.
@@Chadi Mashaallah, maybe you will join us one day brother, I see you have good character. Respect Chadi. I'm staying tuned in to your research and thank you so much for providing deep content.
@@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh thank you so much!
In my opinion the different schools of traditional jiujitsu, despite their differences, share a set of basic techniques and principles. a sort of common alphabet if we want to use a metaphor, whose letters are used by different ryus to compose different words and phrases (kata). aikido deriving from jiujitsu has inherited this alphabet and in fact all the techniques of jujitsu are or can be included in aikido (that’s why some techniques like the ones in the video and others like kito ryu’s techniques etc look like aikido) but the thing that makes aikido what it is and therefore different from jiujitsu is not the technique but the way to interpret it and still more the purpose of practicing it: no longer in terms of antagonism and victory / defeat dualism but in order to transcend the logic of confrontation and competition towards an idea of cooperation and harmony. In my opinion, the peculiarity of aikido lies in having transcended the legacy left by all these budo schools and have become a form of spiritual budo.
By the way thanks for sharing it and congratulations to Chadi for his wonderful channel
Actually it's Kukishin ryu. a Sogo Bujutsu system. very simialr to HYR, Ueshiba first Dojo was called Kukishin and he studied at the tenshin Hoyo Kukishin Dojo, curesty of Takaharu Dono
All martial arts, whether Eastern or Western, were all based on sword and spear techniques. There's only so many ways a human being can move without breaking a limb. This is precisely why Bruce Lee concluded in his own research, that he does not believe in styles.
that is really cool thanks
There was almost certainly some cross pollination between many of the various jujutsu ryu-ha. This demo certainly does have some similarities to Daito Ryu, and therefore, aikido. However, Ueshiba’s training in Daito Ryu is impeccably documented by both first person accounts and Sokaku Takeda’s eimeiroku (which show not only the extent of Ueshiba’s DR training, but also that he was given a Kyoju Dairi teaching license by Takeda).
If anything, I would think that Sokaku would have been the culprit of “stealing” techniques and/or stylistic/aesthetic nuances from other ryu-ha and integrating them into his Daito Ryu. In his youth, Sokaku famously went on a period of austere training where he traveled, fought, and trained at the schools of many teachers/styles (not an uncommon practice of the time). Perhaps he spent some time with Hontai Yoshin Ryu.
Great video. I notice the there is no mats, hard core.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
There is much evidence that Morihai Ueshiba studied Daito-ryu and that the certificates that he gave to his students prior to renaming his art Aikido carried the Daito-ryu tittle. Gozo Shioda of Yoshinkan fame is an example. His certificates from Ueshiba say Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Here, there is a direct line from A to B. Clearly there are similarities between Hontai Yoshin ryu and Daito-ryu, at least in the video presented here. As such, there will definitely be similarities between Aikido and Hontai Yoshin ryu. In the 20 plus years I've been studying Daito-ryu, I've never heard of a Ueshiba Hontai Yoshin ryu connection. It is in an interesting theory, in much the same way that the Ellis Amdur (I think it originated with Ellis Amdur? I could be wrong.) theory of the inclusion of Bagua in AIkido is. Again, there is no evidence of this past conjecture. I would think the place to begin an actual investigation would be with the school's eimeiroku around the pre-war time frame.
great
I think this is what aikido was supposed to be i study Kokikai Aikido but this is 🔥
I am surprised with this video. Contrary to most Aikido demonstrations, the way most techniques here are shown, manifest that its creators had a decent level of understanding (of course putting it in proper perspective) in regards to fighting. We somewhat see might on might, subtleness, more quick to the point defense. I don't agree with all the logic used in the techniques, but if you ask me, this system is much better than Aikido in understanding combat, but most likely just as poor in training methodology. Different times, different mindset, different applicatioms.
These are techniques added in later years and specific to "Hontai Yoshin Ryu" during the 20th century and were part of "Taido".
These are not old.
My source? Takagi Yoshin ryu. These do not exist in old documents on the school.
Ura & Omote. One for the the world & the other for deshi.
I disagree. Daito ryu looks much closer to Aki-Kai Aikido than these Hontai Yoshin Ryu videos. I just don’t see it. This style has very little flow. The is no timing here at all.
Aikido and Judo do intersect with Tomiki’s Shodokan Aikido. It’s a shame that the Aiki-kai schools totally rejected Tomiki’s contribution of Aikido sparring and the adaption of Kano’s Judo syllabus for Aikido training. The result of Tokyo Honbu’s. rejection of Shodokan has been twofold: Aiki-kai style has become a dance, as Shodokan has continued to develop counters and actual timing required in sparring, and applications in the “real” world.
Hakama is no longer worn in Shodokan at any. level.
Thanks for the video. This really looks like aikido, unlike daitōryū.
🙇🏻♂️
I love your work @chadi but i think is wrong and in certain cases even dangerous since we could spread false information that can confuse people about the origins of a martial art and within this the valoration of that martial art.
A lot of martial arts claim to best than others only for being the predecesor art. Examples:
1. Jujutsu / JiuJitsu: especialy fake western schools claims to be better than judo and bjj only for being the father of both (funny if we think that these styles are usually a mix of modern judo, aikido, karate and even bjj).
2. Shuai Jiao: some practicioners think and say that judo, a very similar looking art, is a mere copy of it. Deniying the highly documented story of Jigoro Kano.
3. Some BJJ guys don't like the brazilian identity of their art and try to avoid calling it "brazilian". If we add that many of them still don't know the fact that bjj comes from judo what we've got is a lot of confused people practicing bjj (that come from judo) but thinking that what they do is JiuJitsu (father of judo).
Another posibility is that for bjj guys is more "cool" to say that they are a descendent art of samurai jujutsu (used in wars) rather than a modern and safe sport called judo.
It's okay to search information and don't keep only with the things we already know, but we have to be carefoul cause some people try to use this confuse others and defame other arts in favor of theirs.
That's what i think.
This is almost exactly the old style Tomiki Ryu I learned. Before it became a watered down sport.
@0:50
Well it's my point as well for Aikido what made me thinking is that I never saw from older day Aikido be tought for free or getting away from shintoism it all looked like rituals than fighting which made me think that something is amiss, Morihei Ueshiba while was a true warrior seems like he used the religion beliefs of high status Japanese families more than his fighting and technique to make aikido successful as buissness and then he sold oriental mysticism to the westerners to make more . When I started training inside n aikido dojo mostly for the machinery I said wth I can try, but I had already bjj, jj, pancrace and kickboxing background so when I got shown a technique in which you turn your back to the oponent and another that I was said to keep a coin on someone's wrist to follow his movement so his technique to work was just too much for me. The real thing about aikido though is that there are ppl that have the will and wanna do martial arts to learn self discipline, self betterment and protect themselves and others in times of need, it can evolve to something better and make up for the mistakes of the past if the today masters want.
100% you put it very perfectly
@@Chadi it's sad though if you think how many arts, disciplines etc got lost because they didn't evolve or because ego, money etc got in the way, If you see ninjutsu it did the same, they sold mysticism, secret techniques and now it lost credibility, same with Kung fu, wing Chun and other stuff, they lose credibility as time passes and they are forced to evolve, in the end only what is true will remain. I believe that the practical MA and the sport aspect must separate itself from tradition and culture , a dance is not fighting, your fighting philosophy must translate to reality, if not youre either a fool or a liar. When I was a kid I imagined myself as a Ninja, samurai, wizard, knight and I made up those stories of me being a hero though I wasnt , it was not bad, but as time passed I understood that in order to be a hero for your story you must be real first.
Exactly! That's why competition and pressure testing are crucial, you keep adapting and evolving.
" he used the religion beliefs of high status Japanese families more than his fighting and technique to make aikido successful as buissness and then he sold oriental mysticism to the westerners to make more "
Man that is nothing but talking out of your ass. Did you ever read any thing about Ueshiba? I dont think so! He was a deeply religious person and wasnt rich not even wealthy. Even in old age he grow his own vegtables on his own farm. Man you are unbelievable!
@@Gieszkanne Well, I have held similiar stories to this. Another one being he wanted to stop giving money to his higher ups in Daito Ryu and to do this he "invented" his own martial art and religious backstory to do this and keep all the money. Was he religious, yes! Was he frustrated about war, the atomic bomb, and other things, yes. Would he invent a system to spite the higher-ups, what do you think?
its actual the Kukishin ryu. but Hontai Yoshin ryu is very similar
@9:50
this style is very self defencive! no fancy moves! not dance like modern aikido....this is real thing!
Yes but you still need to spar and experience resistance
@@Chadi yep thats the common problem with all those practitioners...but as style is combative.
I train Hontai 😁
Always thought Takeda ryu was the origin of aikido
This does look like aiki-jitsu
You might be right.
Ueshiba did not invent anything...
The misinformation on Japanese traditions seem to be aplenty just look at the work that Anthony Cummings has done on ninjutsu he had to waide thru a sea of hearsay miss info and flat out lies he disproved the myth of bujin kan and has shone that historical ninjutsu was not a martial art and it was easier for a shinobi to learn already proven martial arts then make a whole new Ryu. I'm a former Aikidoka of 4 years and this video looks like Aikido to me
So he "found out" what was no secret at all. No one ever said the Nin jutsu is a martial art. Its the whole Art of a Ninja. Even in Bujinkan the martial arts have differnte names. Yes it teaches 9 differnt martial arts.
LOOKS 100% AIKIDO
No
Origins.?
Well, since everyone of these individuals demonstrating don’t even have an Aikido shodans ability, if this is an aikido origin, then Aikido improved it😆😆
This is not a jiu jitsu video.
There’s just something about Aikido that doesn’t interest me....
It’s not not like Judo and much less my other favorite sport of Boxing. It doesn’t have that “Winning” factor. I’m talking about a sense of accomplishment after defeating the opponent. From my observation, it’s just “m’eh.” Also, what exactly is it’s selling point? Steven Segal? 😂🤦♂️ I’ll stick to Judo, Thank you very much.
Yes i see your point but also you gotta see the history behind it and why "new" arts developped
great