I love stannis because he’s a man who earns respect. Sure he’s not likable, but he has your back. He leads the assault. He takes Jon’s advice and unites the north against the boltons, breaking bread with the lesser houses of the north and never diminishing their importance. He shows himself as a man will do what is just, and in the long run that counts miles more than any form of likability
And what I actually think makes him arguably one of the best options for king is that he doesn't play favorites and you know what you're going to get with him. He'll punish someone like Davos, who is obviously his most loyal friend, in the exact same way he'd punish someone he absolutely loathes, which clearly doesn't win him many friends in general but also makes him incredibly fair if harsh as a ruler.
@@HillsAliveYT I'm not sure Stannis was so meritocratic. When he accepted the lords left after Renly's death, he warily said to Davos they had betrayed him following Renly in the first place, but that he can't give them what they deserve as they constitute an army he needs. So, Stannis was able to afford cutting Davos' fingers off just because it didn't have major implications, Davos being a mere smuggler. When it came to major lords he was aware of the limits his meritocracy could go
Think about it: Stannis is an attempted usurper living on a fiery island, with a mutilated smuggler and a fire witch as his closest allies. In most novels he’d be a villain, but in fact he’s actually the most rational of the Five Kings and is the only one to listen to the Watch’s pleas about the Walkers. Nothing sums up GRRM’s disdain for good vs. evil fairytale tropes more.
LOL and he has the best claim but continually fails to actually win the crown, and he resorts to dark tactics to do what he thinks is right. Definitely a conundrum of a character.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree with Welsh Mood - GRRM hard-coded Stannis as the evil usurping uncle from his first real chapter. The chapter starts with him burning the wooden statues of the god and ends with Maester Cressen's death. Stannis' words to Cressen were cruel and cold and very few would have liked Stannis by the end of the chapter. It was almost enough to forget that Cressen loved him for good reason. The bards will most likely sing songs about the heretic uncle treating with dark magic to kill good young king Joffrey, the true heir to the iron throne. To the bards, Stannis will be the Scar to Joffrey's Simba, Prince John to Robert's Richard the Lion-heart. Whatever he does, whatever his motives, Stannis' role in the songs has already been set and he knows it.
I think he’ll meet his end holding the others off, knowing he isn’t the chosen one but choosing to fight anyways so that Jon (or whoever) will have time to rally the kingdom
@@DD-ms9dc this, if anything, I think Stannis will hold the Others off at Winterfell, where him being in a siege will be like his experience st Storm's End, however unlike beforw, there's no Davos to bail him out
I loved the unspoken parallel you made between Stannis & Dany: the supposed heroes whose terrible actions are overlooked by fans because they fit the trope of the fantasy hero
@@jgr7487Stannis absolutely does not fit the tropes of the fantasy hero. He's a balding middle aged atheist who is unusually pedantic and severely lacks charisma. Aragorn is the prototypical fantasy hero. Aragorn would not: *Cut off Davos' fingers *Forsake his faith due to his parents' deaths *End up in a loveless marriage *Have internal moral conflicts about the greater good and the ends justifying the means. King Robert is the actual deconstruction of the fantasy hero. Robert is a charismatic, handsome warrior who triumphs over the evil king in a climatic war. The problem is that those skills don't necessarily transfer to being a skilled administrator so Robert was an awful king who did nothing but sleep with whores, eat himself to obesity, and drink himself stupid at every opportunity. That is what GRRM meant when he made the infamous line about Aragorn's tax policy. Good defeats evil and Aragorn is crowned king and it is said that Aragorn was a good king. Robert wins but sucks at his new job so everything falls apart within a single generation of his victory.
The reason why I've always gravitated towards him over Jon and Dany is because he's essentially the "fall guy" to make The Others seem unstoppable so that the young, good looking and charismatic heroes like Jon and Dany show up to save the day which is so tragic for him because he's sacrificed so much but is destined to lose more and he deserves so much better than that
This. I would honestly hope for him to actually br azor ahai, because of how sure we are that he isnt. Unfortunately it wont happen, even if the books do get released
But think of all he accomplishes as just a man. Not the chosen one, but Stannis Baratheon. I hope that makes him feel relieved and somewhat satisfied in the end.
Its sad that histories will only call him, depending on who wins, Robert’s power hungry brother who lost then died up north. Perhaps in the north his mythos will survive but it would be unfortunately poetic that Stannis, the unloved and forgotten middle child that fought tooth and nail for his country, gets ultimately neglected by it after his most important deeds.
@@HillsAliveYTHe believes in justice, yet he does what is necessary. Choosing the best course he can but not letting anything stopping him from saving the realm.
@@HillsAliveYT He does care about people, though. He cares deeply, but doesn't show it to anyone. We never get Stannis' PoV, we are only given snippets of it. His speech about Renly saying how he loved him. Cressen referring to him as a sensitive and gentle boy that needed the most love and support. His Proudwing speech. Stannis clearly has a lot of love for people and the world, but over his entire life has erected a harsh and cold shell as the love was never given back and any sensitivity he was shown was either mocked, exploited, or got him hurt.
This is just something I've heard, I don't know if they've ever confirmed it in an interview but, apparently Stannis was not a character the showrunners liked. I've wondered if thats why the Dorne plot lines in the books are so different compared to the show. Were they just not that passionate about Arianne, Quentyn, and Ellaria Sand. Why wasn't Young Griff in the story? Allegedly Martin asked Dan and Dave who Jon's mother was. Why didn't he ask them what Griff's true origins were?
The *NotACast* podcast has compellingly argued numerous times for why Stannis is the best written character of *_ASOIAF,_* and I think you just served them more arguments in that favor. Another fantastic video!
Stannis the Mannis is my personal favorite character. I think you missed a key thing in this particular video that makes him so popular in the fandom. Objectively he has done the most in the entire cast of characters to serve the realm when he chose to abandon Dragonstone to provide the only aid at the Wall. Looking on how most characters south of the Neck view the wall as basically a penal colony, and only think about it to send criminals and political rivals. The only time people even thought outside those terms was when Stannis showed up, and only because of the optics of Stannis serving the realm. Stannis has been the only character with any power to divert his power from his objective and to do something that has no immediate or clear benefit to himself. Why risk your fighting force and travel in the most dangerous season to provide relief to a penal colony in the most remote part of the country, and objectively the furthest from his goals? Funny that characters in the books go out of their way to describe Stannis as unbendable and unyielding; from Ned, Cressan, Tyrion, and Cat. However, Stannis's actions seems to counter that point. If he was so unbendable he would not have gone to the Wall. He would not of swapped Mance for Rattleshirt and then release Mance to Melisandre's care and thus to Jon's disposal. He would not divert his forces to recruit the mountain clans despite knowing that it would take more weeks to reach Winterfel, and to suffer through endless social gatherings and feasting along the way. He would not have allowed the Wildlings through the Wall after he shattered their horde. Through his cold, detached persona is a man far more flexible than what others give him credit. The show in the end dropped the ball harder than season 8 for his character. I think he will have a significant role to play after the Boltons are defeated. First, I think that the red herring for the character people get caught up on is another red herring for the readers. It is comically obvious on the number of the characters opine that he not the chosen one, that personally tells me that he will have a larger role in the books, possibly be the third head of the dragon. Dany and Jon are the obviously the first two, however Stannis is also shares a genetic trait with them that is often overlooked, and ignored in the show. Stannis, Robert, and Renly are distant Targaryan cousins. That was the whole justification for having Robert as the leader of the Rebellion, even though Ned and Jon Aryan had the most immediate reason to rebel. Ned being that the crown murder his family and the universally agreed narrative that Rheagar kidnapped Ned's sister. Jon's home was directly threatened if he failed to turn over two innocent wards under his protection. However, Robert's Targaryan blood relationship was the reason he was made the figurehead. That detail I think will have greater importance in the story once Dany arrives in Westeros.
I know this isn’t the point of the video, but Stannis isn’t really any more or less immoral than the rest of the “Five Kings”. Renly was prepared to sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers in order to become king with no legal basis. Robb did sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers for a personal revenge quest. Balon raided, pillaged, and raped the North for his own vendetta. Tywin (the main strategist behind Joffrey) destroyed the Riverlands out of spite. Stannis sacrifices people on pyres in service of “destiny”. They’re not different, not really. They all put their own personal beef or delusions of superiority over the well-being of their people.
For Robb is it only personal ? His father was killed as a traitor when it was clearly wrong . Moreover it is clear that the Lannister would have come for them to finish them !!!
@@lakaperse6995I suppose he was also trying to defend the Riverlands, which is a noble goal, but he still threw his own soldiers into a proverbial meat grinder. Rickard Karstark’s sons are a good example. They had nothing to do with this conflict and died defending Robb. It fascinates me how everyone sees the Red Wedding as a horrible crime while completely ignoring the crime that is throwing one’s own people into war.
@@Methus3lah the Karstarks and the northern lords were almost all eager to join Robb and punish the Lannisters for Ned's death. They would always join Robb, they weren't forced.
@@masterplokoon8803 Were the peasants eager? Were they eager to match south into a foreign land to avenge the death of a fairly distant lord? Somehow, I doubt that the peasants were that excited at the prospect. Rickard Karstark may have been eager to March south, but were his sons? We honestly don’t know, but they would’ve been made to March south whether they wanted to or not. The Karstarks were just an example, however. I’m trying to illustrate that these wars were largely pointless and destroyed thousands of lives for the will of the few.
@@Methus3lah his sons were pretty eager to fight for Robb too and their initial victories help save part of the Riverlands from Tywin's slaughter, they saved the Tullys and helped them defend their subjects who were suffering an unprovoked slaughter at the hands of the Lannisters.
Another thing about Stannis is that he is a subversion of the evil king in the castle trope. Dragonstone in the show wasnt impressive but book dragon stone is full of statues of gargoyles, demons, wyverns, basilisk it sits on an inactive volcano and it is always smoky and it smells like brimstone (fire and brimstone mean anything) and its made of blackstone. In a standard fantasy setting stannis would have been like a sauron figure or morgoth. Meanwhile out of all the 5 kings, stannis is arguably the best king. Even if he isnt Azor Ahai, he is still doing what he is doing for the greater good or selfless reasons. But as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Stannis gonna have a sad life and ending just like Rhaegar did. Both following the prophecy and doing what they think is right ultimately for the likes of Jon Snow to follow.
Yes! I've made similar arguments elsewhere over the years. He's a subversion of an overlord, like Mordred. He never laughs or smiles, has a flaming sword, is a skilled battle commander, has a crazy wife, a deformed daughter, an evil witch henchman, lives on a remote island fortress, is trying to steal the throne from his own nephew, uses dark magic, etc. Show Stannis was shanked because he was one of the only characters moving the plot forward while Jon Snow and Daenerys sat around not doing much. They couldn't let Stannis win at Winterfell because that would tilt the scales too far in his favor amongst the fans.
I believe Stannis' story is definitely meant to be a challenge to the concept of "the chosen one". However, I'm not sure if that is the main point of his character. Even for non-readers who only watched the show, and never got to know the depths of Stannis' character, it is obvious that he is not the chosen one. I think that's mostly because they are drawn to other character more, especially Jon & Dany who seem to have a great destiny. I don't know if Stannis is meant to be a blatantly obvious red herring, but perhaps it would have been more subtle if he was unambiguously morally right, but very unlikeable. Many fans fail to see Tyrion's deepest flaws because they read him as very likeable, despite George calling him a villain. I would even go further and say that I wouldn't be surprised if, in general, audiences prefer characters who are morally wrong but likeable over morally right and unlikeable.
It’s because it’s a fictional story. Many people including myself love morally repugnant pieces of shit like Tony soprano and Dexter Morgan and Walter White not because we have any notion of them being moral or good but simply because they are entertaining to watch.
I think part of the reason Stannis is so appealing is that upon first reading, he's so jarringly mundane compared to the other "fated heroes" that it's almost laughable. How could someone so gruff and hard bitten of a man ever fill the role that a more traditional author would have given to the young and handsome Robb Stark without a 2nd thought. But Robb is dead and Stannis is still alive, even after his calamitous defeat at the Blackwater. There's something cathartic about rooting for the underdog and his entire arc in the story has made me reevaluate my stance on prophecy not as a designation determined by birth but as a mold that could be filled by someone with enough grit to do it. I also think that Stannis' character speaks to the agnostic minded reader who on some level wants to believe that there's something real guiding hand that can transform a otherwise inconsequential life into one of greatness. It's rather ironic and horrifying then that Stannis will eventually find out that he's the pawn of a malevolent being beyond his comprehension and that his "destiny" is to die horribly in service to it.
LOL totally, and I love that GRRM does this with his fantasy stories. Like yes, here you have the teenage boy with a magical pet whose on a quest to avenge his murdered father, and against him you can have Joe from accounting whose main personality trait is his severe eczema and who has been waiting on a good promotion for years.
@@HillsAliveYT what’s sad unlike Dany I feel He will die self aware of all his failings while Dany just like show will die or live in willing ignorance
@@HillsAliveYT There is no THE mannis. There are no chosen ones. That's the point. The trope was already subverted before the story of the novels even began. It's just people being people.
For all his flaws, Stannis is the only Lord who sees beyond the petty squabbling of the Westerosi to the real threat (in spite of his own pettiness). I think his role will be to get the other Lords to focus on the threat from the Others. There's no single hero in this story, everyone plays a role.
Very pertinent analysis!! I had never seen Stannis like that, but it's true he's a good reflection of the other characters who think they're the heroes of the story (*cough* Daenerys *cough*)
Yeah, she’s not the only one who is going in the direction of doing whatever they think is necessary for their version of the greater good, but she’s one of the most relevant parallels to Stannis.
@@wolfsbanealphas617 especialy Rheagar. he was the one most consumed by his supposed great destiny, thinking that the world revolves around him because of something he read in a book
@@kikima258 I first thought the obesssion was a coping mechanism for dealing with the fact every time it his birthday he’s reminded of the fact all their family members are dead but then I think he took that tragedy a d made it all about him which is why he goes to summer hall all the time to remember his mission or destiny he’s all woe is me just like Dany who took her brothers death and only took from that he wasn’t a dragon I don’t even think she cared about the abuse because if she had she would have said something akin to it but no she says he wasn’t a dragon leaving it unsaid but I am a dragon
My take is that even tho he's obviously not Azor Ahai, some of his choices can still be valuable to the fight against the Others. After all, he saved the Wall under the believe that there, in the North, he would find the "demons of ice and snow" that he was destined to fight. Thats not true but now the Night's Watch has a chance. He's also trying to unite the North and whatever he may accomplish in that campaign can be benefitial against the Long Night. Hell, even burning Shireen, who without a doubt has valyrian/targaryen/king's blood, may have an important effect against the Great Other. Excellent video Hills. Keep them going.
If Stannis Baratheon ordered us to march through the Seven Hells and back again, I’m in the Vanguard 🫡 Stannis the Mannis is the true king, and I’m expecting his inevitable sacrifice to be absolutely critical in the war against the Others. He will retake Winterfell, and will die holding off the oncoming storm long enough for the armies of the living to rally together to perform the counterattack.
"And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI." George R. R. Martin
I love your channel, thank you for taking the time to do so many interesting deep dives and sharing them with us. It always makes me happy to see one of your videos in my sub feed.
Honestly, I think Stannis is perhaps the best if not one of the top 3 characters that represent the best criticism against a feudalistic society and a fantastical notion of how the world works (which is starting to seep into modern day politics strangely enough). The thing is that Stannis is indeed a just and lawful man. The problem here is that the laws and morals of Westerosi society are so warped in a way that it reinforces opression and exploitation, that a truly just man, by these standards, looks like someone like Stannis. He is the result of people that attribute legitimacy and moral authority to superstitious factors such as birthright, prophecy amd etc.
4:50 You're mistaken. In Stannis POV chapters it gets clear Stannis wasn't aware of Melisandre's plan. He slept and had a nightmare the night Renly died and that's it. Afterwards he just says to Davos (and it would be totally against his character to lie): Melisandre saw Renly dying in the flames but she didn't bring it upon him, on the opposite, she urged Stannis to go parley with Renly one last time to give him the chance to avoid that fate. He might be dissociating here but it wasn't his decision like you make it sound. It's peculiar how different ASOIANF bloggers get some characters spot on, and don't do the justice to some other characters. While it's understandable from a human point of view, that's not how Marting supposed it to be, with his love for grey characters, internal conflicts and all.
I can't believe it has taken you this long to make what is probably your most correct video to date. Also always thought it was a bit strange that the show gave him indo-persian armour
@@HillsAliveYT it's the little details. But don't get me started. Stannis is supposed to be master of ships and oh boy, his grasp of naval tactics leaves something to be desired
@@normtrooper4392 Well to be fair, he got that title from Robert after sitting out a siege in a castle. I think it had more to do with being Robert's brother than anything else.
@@angrynerdgirl i mean, on the other hand, he crushed the Greyjoy rebellion as the Master of ships, so he knows his shit (but George probably doesnt lol)
This might be your best analysis to date. You articulated the gist of what I've always felt about a character that creates so much passion within the fandom. Stannis is without a doubt a great character. But he's not a great character because he's the chosen one. It's the opposite. *Stannis is a great character because he's going to fail.* Stannis' righteousness and rigid sense of duty is his most honorable trait and simultaneously the reason of his undoing. In this, Stannis embodies the perpetual duality of ASOIAF. Stannis is selfless, he's devoid of personal greed and ambitions. Yet, we see Stannis' moral fibre being slowly stripped away in a futile pursuit of a messianic vision. What is the commonality between ASOIAF Stannis and Dany's arc in the show? It's the element of fanatical faith in their purpose. A "True Believer" of sorts. In Martin's philosophy these "end justifies the means" characters of destiny are not supposed to win. The prophetic destiny is supposed to turn out to be cruel illusions. Stannis' arc converging in the North never made me go "this is finally his time for glory!". It actually made me more convinced that his story was always supposed to be one of tragic downfall. That's because deep down we all know the Starks taking back Winterfell (as opposed to being handed) is the most fitting full circle. It's A Time for Wolves folks, not A Time for Stags. Stannis fans who look at Stannis as the Wolverine type loner anti-hero who's gonna sit the throne, swing the flaming lightsaber, and save humanity from The Others actually do a disservice to how much more depth the character actually has. I am of the belief that Stannis' story will end in disaster, but it will light the path of the actual promised one.
@@CandVocaloiziiPlang1 Gotta agree to disagree. But ofc it's just my interpretation and I can be totally wrong. My only thing is that let's say when(if) Winds comes out and Stannis emerges the victor. You can still say with reason that maybe GRRM had little choice but to go the total opposite direction with Stannis given the amount of Stannis discourse we had over the years. He's become one of the most unintentionally popular characters and GRRM probably felt backed into a corner. In hindsight, I really wish we had gotten a definitive answer to Stannis in ADWD.
This is one of your most brilliant and insightful analyses. Your discussion of how the ends don’t justify the means in pursuit of a greater good made me consider how GRRM’s Vietnam experience likely colored a lot of the philosophy behind the books. Applied to fantasy and contemporary politics and movements, what he’s trying to say makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, there’s something of a nihilism to his outlook. There’s an underlying hunger in the story for just one person who almost always does the right thing, which is what makes Ned, Ser Duncan, and even Jon Snow so gravitationally appealing.
I think that the Vietnam war inspiration is probably super relevant here and in ASOIAF in general too, because that is a great example of horrific actions taken under the belief that the ends would justify the means, except the ends that were supposed to happen never actually did happen anyway.
Stannis’ blunt nature is what got me on his side. This series is chock full of people who hide under layers of lies, but Stannis has never been anything other than brutally honest about his ambitions.
Stannis on Rhaenyra: *“She was the daughter of one king and the mother to two more, but she died a traitor’s death for trying to usurp her brother’s throne”* - this quote sums up both Stannis and Rhaenyra for me. Great video @HillaAlive 💚🤌🏼
Rhaenyra was NOT trying to USURP her brother's throne. She was trying to take BACK the throne FROM her usurper half-brother, Aegon II. She was the rightful heir, as named by her father, King Viserys I. Stannis was also not trying to usurp his brother's throne. His brother was dead. Stannis knew that Joffrey was not Robert's child, therefore he was not a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. As Robert's oldest living brother, he would have been next in line to the throne. Of course, ROBERT himself was a usurper, having taken the throne after his brother-in-law (Jaime) killed the mad king. Should've actually been the next Targaryen in line....but no one would want Dany's brother Viserys to be King. He was NOT fit to rule ANYTHING. Plus, I think he was a young child at the time of the mad king's death. Not sure who would've ruled as Regent until he came of age. His mother died in childbirth. The hand, perhaps. Not sure who that was after Tywin resigned...
@@carastone3473 My lady I’m afraid you do not yet see the error of your ways. Please come to Oldtown and look at Targaryen family trees and the laws of succession. A king’s “chosen heir” has never been a legitimate factor. What has been a factor is male primogeniture for better or worse. Was Aegon I usurping his older sister Visenya? Was Jaehaerys usurping his older sister Rhaena? Was Viserys usurping his elder cousin Rhaenys? Too much logical inconsistency on your side I’m afraid
@@carastone3473 Why don't you tell that to the maesters that wrote the books that made Stannis think and say that lol Like it or not, Rhaenyra WAS the usurper and Aegon II was the king during those years and thats what the westerosi remember. And not even in reality was Aegon an usurper. Westeros isn't an absolute monarchy and not even a king can break law or tradition unless his lords allow him to do it and that allowance is reflected in the history books and in who got the upper hand, as it was a civil war with two factions with arguments and solid positions and not a massacre of the small, usurping green side. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon had valid claims but only one persevered: Aegon's, thus making him the rightful king, thus Aegon III (Rhaenyra's son) being considered Aegon II's succesor and not his mother's and thus Stannis saying that. Rhaenyra fans are never beating the "don't know how Westeros work" allegations I'm afraid.
@@carastone3473 King’s can’t just choose their heir Willy Nilly. Holy shit do you understand the utter chaos that would cause? For one thing, a king could nominate a fucking house servant to be the next king if they chose, after all their decision apparently comes before tradition. And this would cause a lot of forgery or who was chosen by bad actors. Second, this would inevitably trickle down to the nobility as well. Imagine the fucking chaos - for multiple generations - that would emerge from the debate between the chosen heir and the traditional heir. And again, forgery from bad actors. It would be a world of might makes right would only the most ruthless, treacherous, conniving, backstabbing, flattering, and selfish nobles got the power from titles, armies, castles, etc. What an absolute hell-hole Westeros would be then. Regardless of any individual psychopaths on the Green team, their cause was clearly the right one.
Stannis is one of the most interesting characters in the book series. And arguably the best Baratheon we've seen so far. But I will always personally look at him sour ways for what he did to poor sweet Shireen. I hope the book takes a different path than that, but it's unlikely. But I respect the hell out of him to be the only noble to help Jon and the Night Watch. Stannis is the man, but is not The Man.
Iirc some of the last words we see from Stannis in the book are to run to Shireen and crown her if he falls in battle. I highly doubt he will burn his heir. It makes no sense for his succession or his character (having previously refused to burn nonbelievers). I do think Selyse and Mel will do it, though. They're with her right now and Stannis isn't.
shireen isn't even with him she is at the wall, stannis even names her as his heir before leaving ordering his men to fight for her in case he dies, it's milessendre who will burn her. it was already forshadowed with jon switching gilie's baby with mances's son because he was affraid mel will burn him for his king's blood now she only has shireen
LOL well Shireen is defo my favorite Baratheon so far so if/when Stannis kills her, he's dead to me. I would really like it if he doesn't too, but the ASOIAF nerds who are way more well-versed in history and mythology than I am have convinced me of the Agamemnon/Iphigenia parallels with Stannis and Shireen.
@@HillsAliveYT Shireen does make solid case for being the best Baratheon. Damn now that you mention it, they are major parallels between Stannis/Shireen and Agamemnon/Iphigenia. This only fills me with a more melancholy and dread.
@@angrynerdgirl The problem with this is that it makes it seem as if he cares for his daughter. He is doing that out of duty, which is a characteristic of his, if he falls, he doesn't want his cause to end and the only heir is his daughter. Not making her heir out of love but out of duty. The next thing about him not sacrificing her isn't a strong argument. Him not being near his daughter isn't a permanent thing and he could reunite with his family in the book, I doubt that he would remain in one place throughout an entire book that's larger than the previous ones. Another problem with the whole Selyse and Melisandre making the decision is it doesn't make as much sense as the king doing it. He is willing to sacrifice as he said so himself. Here is a quote from A Storm of Swords “I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady.” We need to remember in the books that the first sacrifice may not be Shireen as there is the child of Gilly who was switched over for Mance Rayder's child by Jon as he didn't want the child to be sacrificed for king's blood, he also sent Aemon Targaryen away for the same reason, fearing that he too may be sacrificed after Stannis is recognised who he was. There is a thing that saving these people from sacrifice may be the reason why Shireen becomes the sacrifice. The part Shireen is playing in this is nissa nissa and it's going to be part of prophecy which makes sense for Stannis to be there. Other sacrifices are Asha and Theon but they may escape is what I think. The sacrifice in the books is not going to be like the show where they clear some snow. Melisandre spoke of waking some dragon in the wall, I don't know if the sacrifice will actually bring something magical. However Stannis as I quoted has admitted that he would sacrifice a child to save a million from the dark and that child is likely his own. He already tried to sacrifice Edric Storm who was the child he was originally talking about in that quote. When Stannis asks Cortnay Penrose to hand over Edric Storm, Cortnay is reluctant and protective of the boy. Stannis takes this as an insult as he is annoyed that Cortnay believed that he would ever harm the boy, but when it came to sacrifice he was willing to harm the boy which proved Cortnay right. Edric was only saved by Davos and some loyalists to the faith of the seven. So him saying something, doesn't mean that he won't do the opposite. He may see that the only way in defeating the Others is to make a sacrifice and this could be how it goes down. If he doesn't survive that battle then it can't be him who makes any sacrifice. We don't know much until the book comes out but the view that he would never sacrifice his own daughter is not true. He is capable and willing to sacrifice if he believes it has a benefit. The problem with Melisandre and Selyse doing it is what are the consequences? I doubt Stannis will outlive Melisandre as she is important to the plot. It being Stannis already has consequences as he is willing to do what it takes to win. Him refusing to burn nonbelievers was more about his allies being nonbelievers and he couldn't burn them for that as he needs them. However 4 guys are caught doing cannibalism and are burnt, they do the religious chants while burning them Godry waits for Stannis to come out before burning them. Asha witnesses this and finds it cruel even compared to drowning of the ironborn. She also acknowledged one of the guys goaded Clayton Suggs into killing him so he died without being burned alive, she saw that as clever. Stannis watched the men burn and until the screaming had stopped and returned to the watchtower. Suggs is eager to see Asha burn and says the 4 guys were a beggars offering and wouldn't stop the snow. While pointing towards Asha's king's blood.
I rooted for Stannis hard in the books first read through. He was best positioned to beat the Lannisters in Clash of Kings. And his decision to go to the Wall was really epic story moment. Upon further readings I'm more aware of his flaws. I will never forgive the show for having him kill his daughter, so shockingly out of character I don't think he'd ever go that far.
I read the Dragonbone Chair mostly as background for ASoIaF, in that series the most analogous character is led to be the living body for a long unbodied powerful spirit. I think the resurrection of Jon will tear a hole that Azor Ahai steps through to seize Stanis’ body.
I never got the feeling that he believed to be AA, but that he is playing Mel for her power. When she is not around he is not fanatical. When going to Winterfell he refuses to give non believers to the flames and tells his soldiers to pray harder. And in the place he is now there is a weirwood tree he didn't burn. He believes in Mel's powers but not in the gods. Also the original AA was not a good person, since he sacrificed his wife, a morality similar to Stannis'.
Fascinating analysis, even though it's the complete opposite of my take on Stannis. I always interpreted him as a deconstruction of the classic fantasy villain rather than the chosen one. He is gloomy and unpleasant, he is the unpopular brother to the king, he has a witch as an advisor, and he will do anything for the throne. What frustrates me to no end, and ultimately doomed Game of Thrones, in my opinion, is that the writers actually read him and Daenerys at face value and removed a lot of the nuance from both character arcs. As a result, the narrative goes out of its way to make Daenerys look heroic and Stannis look villainous, even though ASOIAF is all about morally grey characters. Anyway, always good to see a new video from you, keep up the good work.
the thing is that Stannis fills the "typical fantasy king" void created by the death of Ned Stark, who himself had so many issues. it would be tragic to see him become a general in the Army of the Dead
Hey, I’m a huge GOT nerd and it’s so refreshing to hear ur takes. I feel like the fandom is so male dominated that a lot of the commentary ignores a lot of important context because of their personal viewpoints and as a queer women it can be really exhausting to see it over and over again so thanks for the content. (This doesn’t necessarily apply to this video in particular or Stannis as a character just the fandom as a whole). Also idk if ud ever be interested but I think u would create some really interesting what if scenarios if u ever wanted to explore that. Either way hope ur having a good day ur content is always a nice surprise :)
I think both Stannis and Ned Stark represent justice and honour in this story. Ned died for the one true claim and it was only fair for Stannis to die trying to free winterfell. Both tried to do the right thing but ultimately failed bcuz the world isn't honourable nor just. Both of them had a significant impact on Jon who'll also follow the righteous path and suffer just like his true father.
I feel like Stannis is literally the only competent enough ruler to actually keep his word when he says so (,,i will have to save everyone to keep the kingdom), but if we put in the ecuation his immense empathy and actual wish to save EVERYONE....then he literally is the most important character
He is our King. By way of conquest representing House Baratheon, and by blood as his is descended from his ancestor Aegon The Conqueror. I will always support him, because he is human. He is not perfect.
Stannis Baratheon, The Trueborn, The Flaming Fury, Lord of Storms End, Lord Paramount of The Stormlands, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of The Realm.
I think that Stannis is a really admirable character in a lot of ways given the world he lives in. There is a really strong reason why someone as honorable and noble as Davos would devote his life to Stannis. He's just in a way most Westerosi Lords simply are not. That said, he commits atrocities in the name of that "justice," which is inexcusable. He is most definitely not the chosen one, but I don't think he'd be the worst king in comparison to Robert or some of the Targaryen kings. I hope he retakes winterfell from the boltons, and dies fighting the others in Winds.
@@diegonatan6301 I actually think Stannis is too inflexiable to be Master of Laws, particularly if the laws themselves are unjust. Whereas if he was Master of Coin his relentless nature, incorruptibility (at least where gold is concerned) and willingness to promote on merit rather than birth would make him excellent at looking after the treasury. At least in my opinion.
To me it doesnt even feel like Stannis strictly *desires* to be king, i feel like hes just 100% in on the cultural norms of his time, so he genuenly feels the obligation to be king, since his claim is arguably the best, like him not managing to sit the throne wouldnt be so much a hit to his ego or ambition, but more of a cognitive disonance, its not just that he has a right to rule, he has an obligation to. Wich makes me think he would make a good king, because he has zero personal ambition besides being king, so he wouldnt be blinded by personal desires or greed (i think), wich means that once he became king he would probably do it the most safe and vanilla way possible, surrounding himself with experts and just trying to create a prosperous era because thats what good kings do and hes an overly literal guy that only wants to be king.
The weird thing about Stannis is he is entirely unlikable, but that makes him very likable to me. Very odd character George somehow made me love in asoiaf.
One thing I have noticed is GoT tells the same story multiple times. It’s just that the faces change. Stannis most assuredly follows follows Robb Stark’s arc and it didn’t end well for either of them. They were both kings but made some rash decisions that doomed them. It’s almost as if the story is trying to drive home that trope is flawed and it will be subverted. I am reminded of Sansa’s quote to Jon in the first episode of season 7 how both their father and Robb made stupid mistakes and lost their heads for it. The genius thing GoT did…and it looks like GRRM did in the books…is give the same story over and over again but the ones who actually pay attention and learn the lessons of others’ failures are the ones that are going to break the cycle or “break the wheel” if you will.
Hell no the show runners hated stannis and killed him off stupidly also rushing things because of wanting to do star wars . Going over the differences between show and book will show you the butchery. Show stannis Beaten at the black water (and just mopes around) Begs the iron bank for money Gets bamboozled by 20 good men Burns his daughter for a snow storm to disappear Just suicidal marches upto winter fell with no plan . Book stannis The iron bank seek him He takes Jon's advice on how to handle the north (gaining support of northern houses and mountain clans) Freeing deep wood motte from the iron born helped him get support and actually went against his original plan (proving that he isn't inflexible) His daughter wife and fire worshipper are up at castle black As of now is in a crofters village coming up with a plan on how to handle the frey and Bolton forces he's been in shit before (storms end siege is similar to the point just now ) As for the burning shireen I reckon the fake pink letter that says stannis is dead will be a lie yet will lead to Mel and selyse burning shireen to resurrect stannis which in turn will resurrect jon (when Mel asks to see the chosen one in the fire the fire showed her literal snow) Or stannis will do it in a grave situation when the walkers attack and realises its for nothing and goes down swinging .
@@rhysoneill7399 they killed him off because the actor who played him wanted to leave for another project. Stannis wasn’t going to be there at the end so they just moved up his ending.
Yeah this is a pretty good analysis. I think you hit on number of key points. He's not going to be king. Shouldn't be king. He's not the chosen one. And correctly show how Stannis's choices make no sense in this context. I also think your moral analysis is basically sound. The characters are wrong in many ways, including morally. Identifying with them is part of the trap laid for us by the author. That said, I have a different analysis of Stannis's actions and motivations which I think resolves some of the contradictions. I hope you'll consider giving my new videos a watch.
I think George likes ambiguity his readers can argue over. While some characters will do evil things in a good cause that achieve nothing: that won't always be true. Someone, not necessarily Stannis, is going to use horrible methods that do help avert the apocalypse. Having this be a story where the moral is unambiguously: the ends never justify the means doesn't seem like him. I think if the series is ever finished he wants videos like this debating it: Could the world have been saved without Hot Pie, or whoever, doing that horrible thing they did.
I like the idea that Rhaegar Targaryan was actually the real chosen one, and because he's dead before the beginning of the books, they're essentially all screwed, and just have to the best with what they've got left
I absolutely adore the Mannis. Truly the king who cares and as foolish as it for me to want him on the Iron Throne because it's unlikely to happen, that just makes me love him more. Danerys who? WE STAN THE TRUE KING OF THE 7 KINGDOMS.
I suport book Stannis because Stannis is the only one of the candidates to the throne that has earned to right to call himself "Protector of the Realm", when the wall was about to fall he was the only king who cared and answered the call despite being the one with the smallest army, he made compromises with the Night's Watch and the wildlings to protect the realm from the white walkers.
The day you post a new video is always a good day 😂💛 Btw, this is probably a stupid question but what do you think Stannis's exact involvement in Renly's death was? Did he know Melisandre's plan in detail? Did she just tell him that she'll kill Renly? Or did she tell him only that she'll have him "taken care of"?
I honestly don't know but I don't think that Stannis would care that much either? Given his general attitude of "this must get done and it will be done by any means necessary" I imagine that he may not have known but may not have cared what was going to happen as long as it did happen.
Stannis feels neuro atypical to me. And his status as legitimate heir is exploited by what's her name, which brings out his resentment of being in Robert's shadow, but also of having been socially ostracized for his atypicality. I got the sense, as with Tyrion for his dwarfism and Cercae for her sex, that, had the culture been more accepting and appreciative of diversity, their true talents and skills would have flourished and benefited the society that marginalized and rejected them. But the only support he received was unquestioning and unchallenging devotion and obedience from one person and melodramatic ego massage from another. He was too damaged, estranged, socially naive to resist either.
I feel like Stannis would’ve done well with some role in Robert’s small council that required firm control. Master of Ships is whatever, but Master of Laws or (possibly) Coin could’ve been a better fit. Stannis almost seems to relish his sternness and wouldn’t be bothered by being seen in a somewhat negative light for his role in the legal system or taxes. Maybe he would also do well with someone he respects being there to balance out his rigidity with “hey so this is a royal wedding/tourney and it’s really important we spend money on this frivolous thing”. This is my perspective as a neurodivergent person who sees a bit of myself in Stannis 😅 (not the burning people and religious fanaticism tho)
@palantiri6590sleeping with Mel does not make him heterosexual. He could be doing it solely for her power. Or even he's bought into the narrative that as a man he has to like women sexually and so he has sex with her because he thinks he does even though he doesn't.
It's the Burning Heart, as the Notacast podcast guys would say. Stannis took his heart and set it on fire. That's what his story is about, and why it's leading up to the sacrifice of Shireen. It really sucks because I like Stannis a lot. He's so flawed, but comes so close at times to being a great leader. I also like survivors who pull of unexpected comebacks.
I tend to think about themes or lenses and then consider how they apply to the various ASOIAF characters. When I think of Stannis, I immediately go to rigidity vs flexibility. An inability to bend and compromise is a fatal flaw for several characters, and Stannis is among the most rigid of all George's characters. And yet, Stannis has shown an ability to bend reality/tradition to fit his inflexible vision...just enough to make him interesting. 😂
I see Stannis as an sort-of replacement for Ned Stark’s character after his untimely departure. He has a very similar devotion to his (admittedly warped and flawed) perception of honor and duty, but unlike Ned he is far more willing to ‘play the game’ and has a more ruthless attitude towards the events which befall himself and the realm.
I am not really buying that book Stannis will have anything to do with Shireen's death. I am more expecting her to be burnt by Melisandre as a sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back.
@@HillsAliveYT I think he said she will burn, but he didn't specify by whose order. She is back at the Wall with the queen and Melisandre, while Stannis is approaching Winterfell. I don't think either of them will teleport ;).
@@jjh2456 I googled it and you are in fact correct. I wasn't aware of the more recent statements, only the earlier ones that were much more vague. Well, it's his narrative choice (though I doubt he will ever manage to put it in writing) and I will leave it at that. No point in starting a criticism of it here ;).
I think the greatest fault of Stannis as a leader, even beyond the horrible acts he commits, really comes down to his religion. Even Aegon the Conqueror knew he had to at least nominally follow the Faith of the Seven if he wanted to rule. And there's a reason Baelor was one of the most popular kings in history among the smallfolk. Stannis on the Iron Throne openly associating himself with R'hllor could only lead to a mass rebellion of the faithful. Especially if he came to power after the reformation of the Faith Militant. Even a follower of the Old Gods claiming the throne would likely face quite a bit of pushback despite being more familiar and accepted than R'hllor.
I mean, we haven't seen a single Phyrexian in the story so far, so clearly the compleation ending isn't happening. and the 'Others' refuse to go beyond the wall so the good ending of frozen death is not happening either. So the only endings we have are if GRRM admits defeat or if the Sweetrobin discord is able to finish it. None of the story within the 4th wall matters beyond addiction peddling any more and likely hasn't since Magic: The Gathering released in 1993.
It’s a pity that Robert was so “distant” with his brothers. I am not sure that Stannis would’ve made the best King (too rigid for compromise) I think he would have made an excellent hand, if Robert could listen. Stannis rarely failed to heed good advice when it was offered, and his pragmatism would have matched well with Robert’s friendliness. Plus there is a decent chance he would have taken out Cersei before everything went to pot. But ASOIAF is full of what ifs so who knows ?
"We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt."
I think there is also something to be said about the least likely of the five kings being the last of the five living. I don't know what that means thematically, but I always thought that was neat.
my man never got love in universe, but has a dedicated fandom outside of it. Guess is partially what you commented down here; we root for the lonely kid. However, what I trully like about him is that he doesn't care that people dont like him: He'll still try to save them (albeit maybe for egoistic reasons) i'm all for mere men trying to give their best against impossible ods, giving their lives. I think Stannis shows how much George likes Boromir. Stannis is Iron; he'll break before he bends
One thing I also like about the baratheon brothers in general is their parallel to the corleone brothers. Sonny -robert both warrior types hot headed yet not cruel and not leadership material. Michael-stannis neither want the responsibility of leadership yet through Duty to family/the realm they take the role on and it consumes them in the end. Renly fredo-both are basically nothing boats that offer nothing and are made up of envy and spite who also betray a brother out of lust for power
But of course he convinces himself that this time is different...all of his choices are a different choosing and even as his heir is in an even less tenable position.
When I was reading the song for the first time in earlier years of the show, there was such a cult of stannis in the community I was a part of, it's disturbing how many ppl like him for apparent 'just' deeds when I was bored at best and repulsed with his character. I'm rereading now the story on last pages of dance and moving to song, and so excited to know my new opinions on character as an adult, cos oh my I loved 'the chosen' ones😂
Antoher thing the Stannis represents is the Whole Love is the death of Duty and viceversa. Everything he does has to be pragmatic of in the service of something else than himself He wants to sit the Iron throne, Because it's law and he is the rightfull King He wants avenge Ned Stark, Robert and Jon Arryn, not out of love but Because law demands retribution for their deaths He wants to save Th world not Because he is particulary fond of it, but Because again; it was a duty thrusted upon him. Of Course. I'm sure Stannis enjoys the idea of being the chosennone, of being King, of being admired. But i'm sure as well that if joff wasnthe lefitimate heir, stannis would have supported him during the War, that if Mel had Never showed up he wouldnt care/belive about the Others. And i belive this will affect Jon as well. We all know Jon emulates his father figures. During AGoT and first half of CoK he is idealistic like Ned, during the later CoK he is gruffed and humorless like Donal Noye, during a Storm of Swords he becomes more unruly just like Mance Rayder, and in FfC and DwD he is harsh and disciplined like Stannis
"Power resides where men believe it resides." I suppose, the chosen one will be the one who steps up and presents himself in the right moment, rallying the right people. In that vein, heck, maybe Tyrion turns out to be Azor Ahai in a dramatic climax, subverting even the in-universe expectation, foreshadowed by Blackwater. Would even have some symbolism with all the "Stannis as a sort of a corpse king" motif and whatnot. I am only half joking.
But if the chosen One trope IS wrong in this World how does King Bran make sense ? Not critisising just very curious about that I do believe that the chosen One trope IS wrong in this World but I still strugle to not see Bran as a chosen One himself and also a chosen One maker which really puzzle me
Well we'll see how thinks shake out but I think Bran might become king by rejecting his so-called "magical destiny"? Like, magic doesn't have very good connotations in the story overall, and I think a lot of the magical characters are either going to have to sacrifice their power for the sake of being better people, or will lean harder into their magic to their own destruction. But that's just a guess on how his character might subvert the destined king trope.
Bran won’t have kids, so can’t be the “chosen one”. The Others are a hive and their queen is either swarming or dying. Either way they just need a replacement queen, Jon and Daenerys’s baby girl, and they’ll be on their way back home. No hero to lead against the undead army is necessary, just one to make a “song”(girl) who is “Ice”(Stark*) and “Fire”(Targaryen *).
Im curious how jon snow will contrast to stannis. Jon has alot of chosen one vibes,secret lost son of the prince, comes back from the dead, played by kit harrington. My feeling is he will be asked to do something horrible, he will just nope out. If Eddard just stayed in the north, everything would of probably been a little bit better. Sometimes not thinking you have to be the hero who fixes everything is the best thing to do.
I don't believe horrible things MUST happen to yield positive results but that people WILL do terrible things if they believe they're in the right. I'd love to see your analysis on the Dune franchise. ASOIAF and Dune are fun to compare and contrast
OMG I LOVE DUNE. I know this is incredibly fake fan of me, but I started getting into it after the Denis Villeneuve adaptation and the Dune movie is everything that my movie nerd, film-degree-having ass wants to see when I go to the movies. It's just so freaking great, it's still the last time I saw a movie that just melted my face off for every minute of screen time, I get why it was such a landmark book series, and I really hope the Dune universe becomes its own franchise. And yes, the similarities with Dune and ASOIAF (and honestly every fantasy/sci-fi franchise that came after Dune) are not few.
@@HillsAliveYT well let's hope Villenueve at the very least adapts Dune Messiah, otherwise imo it would be pointless to adapt dune without showing the consequences of Paul's actions and the Greek level tragedy it really is And really "fake fan" is such a misnomer, you're new! Dune fans (at least the ones I met who aren't fans of the extended BS) loves new members and I'm sure that Denis knew he'd breath life back into this series with his adaptions! (But yeah please don't read into anything past book 6 it's essentially non canon)
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I love stannis because he’s a man who earns respect. Sure he’s not likable, but he has your back. He leads the assault. He takes Jon’s advice and unites the north against the boltons, breaking bread with the lesser houses of the north and never diminishing their importance. He shows himself as a man will do what is just, and in the long run that counts miles more than any form of likability
And what I actually think makes him arguably one of the best options for king is that he doesn't play favorites and you know what you're going to get with him. He'll punish someone like Davos, who is obviously his most loyal friend, in the exact same way he'd punish someone he absolutely loathes, which clearly doesn't win him many friends in general but also makes him incredibly fair if harsh as a ruler.
What is "likeable" even?
@@HillsAliveYT He also makes sure his army doesn't become a common horde of r@pists with castration against anyone who commits such an act.
I think you are right. Robert was "likeable". Robert was a terrible king. How many people had to die because Robert was "likeable"?
@@HillsAliveYT I'm not sure Stannis was so meritocratic. When he accepted the lords left after Renly's death, he warily said to Davos they had betrayed him following Renly in the first place, but that he can't give them what they deserve as they constitute an army he needs. So, Stannis was able to afford cutting Davos' fingers off just because it didn't have major implications, Davos being a mere smuggler. When it came to major lords he was aware of the limits his meritocracy could go
Think about it: Stannis is an attempted usurper living on a fiery island, with a mutilated smuggler and a fire witch as his closest allies. In most novels he’d be a villain, but in fact he’s actually the most rational of the Five Kings and is the only one to listen to the Watch’s pleas about the Walkers.
Nothing sums up GRRM’s disdain for good vs. evil fairytale tropes more.
LOL and he has the best claim but continually fails to actually win the crown, and he resorts to dark tactics to do what he thinks is right. Definitely a conundrum of a character.
True, Stannis definitely feels like a spoof on the trope of a vengeful, overshadowed uncle attempting to usurp power, like Scar from the Lion King.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree with Welsh Mood - GRRM hard-coded Stannis as the evil usurping uncle from his first real chapter. The chapter starts with him burning the wooden statues of the god and ends with Maester Cressen's death. Stannis' words to Cressen were cruel and cold and very few would have liked Stannis by the end of the chapter. It was almost enough to forget that Cressen loved him for good reason.
The bards will most likely sing songs about the heretic uncle treating with dark magic to kill good young king Joffrey, the true heir to the iron throne. To the bards, Stannis will be the Scar to Joffrey's Simba, Prince John to Robert's Richard the Lion-heart.
Whatever he does, whatever his motives, Stannis' role in the songs has already been set and he knows it.
STANNIS, STANNIS, STANNIS!!!
The most rational?! This dude let a WITCH burn his pre-teen daughter at the stake!
I always thought that Stannis will meet his end failing to stop the others and realize that he was never the chosen one.
I think he will too, no chance that he kills multiple family members without ultimately coming to the realization that it was all for nothing.
I think he’ll meet his end holding the others off, knowing he isn’t the chosen one but choosing to fight anyways so that Jon (or whoever) will have time to rally the kingdom
@@DD-ms9dcI really like that ending as a big fan of Stannis myself
Aye, he'll realise hes been played a fool but he has no lack of resolve. He will fight no matter what and die because of it.
@@DD-ms9dc this, if anything, I think Stannis will hold the Others off at Winterfell, where him being in a siege will be like his experience st Storm's End, however unlike beforw, there's no Davos to bail him out
I find Stannis appealing as a leader. I don't want a people pleaser I want the guy who gets shit done.
I find him appealing as a leader because I instinctively root for the kid who no one ever wanted to sit with at lunch.
@@HillsAliveYT that burn could stop the night king in his tracks💀💀💀
@@HillsAliveYT Big school shooter energy though.
Are you not on Quora? Are you not the guy with the soldier as a profile picture?
THIS
I loved the unspoken parallel you made between Stannis & Dany: the supposed heroes whose terrible actions are overlooked by fans because they fit the trope of the fantasy hero
I’d take Stannis terrible actions over Daenerys any day. Stannis pays the debt himself. Daenerys charges everyone else and she doesn’t care
@@terellchapman8737 so would I
@@jgr7487Stannis absolutely does not fit the tropes of the fantasy hero. He's a balding middle aged atheist who is unusually pedantic and severely lacks charisma.
Aragorn is the prototypical fantasy hero. Aragorn would not:
*Cut off Davos' fingers
*Forsake his faith due to his parents' deaths
*End up in a loveless marriage
*Have internal moral conflicts about the greater good and the ends justifying the means.
King Robert is the actual deconstruction of the fantasy hero. Robert is a charismatic, handsome warrior who triumphs over the evil king in a climatic war. The problem is that those skills don't necessarily transfer to being a skilled administrator so Robert was an awful king who did nothing but sleep with whores, eat himself to obesity, and drink himself stupid at every opportunity. That is what GRRM meant when he made the infamous line about Aragorn's tax policy. Good defeats evil and Aragorn is crowned king and it is said that Aragorn was a good king. Robert wins but sucks at his new job so everything falls apart within a single generation of his victory.
The reason why I've always gravitated towards him over Jon and Dany is because he's essentially the "fall guy" to make The Others seem unstoppable so that the young, good looking and charismatic heroes like Jon and Dany show up to save the day which is so tragic for him because he's sacrificed so much but is destined to lose more and he deserves so much better than that
This.
I would honestly hope for him to actually br azor ahai, because of how sure we are that he isnt. Unfortunately it wont happen, even if the books do get released
But think of all he accomplishes as just a man. Not the chosen one, but Stannis Baratheon. I hope that makes him feel relieved and somewhat satisfied in the end.
Its sad that histories will only call him, depending on who wins, Robert’s power hungry brother who lost then died up north. Perhaps in the north his mythos will survive but it would be unfortunately poetic that Stannis, the unloved and forgotten middle child that fought tooth and nail for his country, gets ultimately neglected by it after his most important deeds.
The King who still cared ❤🔥
The king who fought for humankind despite the fact that he doesn’t really care about any one person. Definitely an interesting character choice.
@@HillsAliveYTHe believes in justice, yet he does what is necessary. Choosing the best course he can but not letting anything stopping him from saving the realm.
@@HillsAliveYT I feel like he's less of a misanthrope and just lacks emotional empathy. To me he's written as clearly on the spectrum.
@@HillsAliveYT He does care about people, though. He cares deeply, but doesn't show it to anyone. We never get Stannis' PoV, we are only given snippets of it. His speech about Renly saying how he loved him. Cressen referring to him as a sensitive and gentle boy that needed the most love and support. His Proudwing speech.
Stannis clearly has a lot of love for people and the world, but over his entire life has erected a harsh and cold shell as the love was never given back and any sensitivity he was shown was either mocked, exploited, or got him hurt.
Let's hope he will get ending his character deserves. Showrunners did him dirty!
Yeah his death was corny as hell and just made his entire arc feel irrelevant.
This is just something I've heard, I don't know if they've ever confirmed it in an interview but, apparently Stannis was not a character the showrunners liked. I've wondered if thats why the Dorne plot lines in the books are so different compared to the show. Were they just not that passionate about Arianne, Quentyn, and Ellaria Sand. Why wasn't Young Griff in the story? Allegedly Martin asked Dan and Dave who Jon's mother was. Why didn't he ask them what Griff's true origins were?
He was one of the character's they didn't know what to do with, and so wrote him out as quickly as possible, like Doran Martell.
@@sincitty3323 Always made me facepalm how Martin asked the easiest question to check whether those clowns were "fans" of his work or not.
The *NotACast* podcast has compellingly argued numerous times for why Stannis is the best written character of *_ASOIAF,_* and I think you just served them more arguments in that favor. Another fantastic video!
If Hill’s Alive has a thousand fans, I’m one of them.
If Hill’s Alive has one-hundred fans, I’m one of them.
If Hill’s Alive has no fans, I’m dead.
mom is this your alt account
Stannis the Mannis is my personal favorite character. I think you missed a key thing in this particular video that makes him so popular in the fandom. Objectively he has done the most in the entire cast of characters to serve the realm when he chose to abandon Dragonstone to provide the only aid at the Wall. Looking on how most characters south of the Neck view the wall as basically a penal colony, and only think about it to send criminals and political rivals. The only time people even thought outside those terms was when Stannis showed up, and only because of the optics of Stannis serving the realm. Stannis has been the only character with any power to divert his power from his objective and to do something that has no immediate or clear benefit to himself. Why risk your fighting force and travel in the most dangerous season to provide relief to a penal colony in the most remote part of the country, and objectively the furthest from his goals?
Funny that characters in the books go out of their way to describe Stannis as unbendable and unyielding; from Ned, Cressan, Tyrion, and Cat. However, Stannis's actions seems to counter that point. If he was so unbendable he would not have gone to the Wall. He would not of swapped Mance for Rattleshirt and then release Mance to Melisandre's care and thus to Jon's disposal. He would not divert his forces to recruit the mountain clans despite knowing that it would take more weeks to reach Winterfel, and to suffer through endless social gatherings and feasting along the way. He would not have allowed the Wildlings through the Wall after he shattered their horde. Through his cold, detached persona is a man far more flexible than what others give him credit.
The show in the end dropped the ball harder than season 8 for his character. I think he will have a significant role to play after the Boltons are defeated. First, I think that the red herring for the character people get caught up on is another red herring for the readers. It is comically obvious on the number of the characters opine that he not the chosen one, that personally tells me that he will have a larger role in the books, possibly be the third head of the dragon. Dany and Jon are the obviously the first two, however Stannis is also shares a genetic trait with them that is often overlooked, and ignored in the show. Stannis, Robert, and Renly are distant Targaryan cousins. That was the whole justification for having Robert as the leader of the Rebellion, even though Ned and Jon Aryan had the most immediate reason to rebel. Ned being that the crown murder his family and the universally agreed narrative that Rheagar kidnapped Ned's sister. Jon's home was directly threatened if he failed to turn over two innocent wards under his protection. However, Robert's Targaryan blood relationship was the reason he was made the figurehead. That detail I think will have greater importance in the story once Dany arrives in Westeros.
I know this isn’t the point of the video, but Stannis isn’t really any more or less immoral than the rest of the “Five Kings”. Renly was prepared to sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers in order to become king with no legal basis. Robb did sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers for a personal revenge quest. Balon raided, pillaged, and raped the North for his own vendetta. Tywin (the main strategist behind Joffrey) destroyed the Riverlands out of spite. Stannis sacrifices people on pyres in service of “destiny”.
They’re not different, not really. They all put their own personal beef or delusions of superiority over the well-being of their people.
For Robb is it only personal ? His father was killed as a traitor when it was clearly wrong . Moreover it is clear that the Lannister would have come for them to finish them !!!
@@lakaperse6995I suppose he was also trying to defend the Riverlands, which is a noble goal, but he still threw his own soldiers into a proverbial meat grinder. Rickard Karstark’s sons are a good example. They had nothing to do with this conflict and died defending Robb.
It fascinates me how everyone sees the Red Wedding as a horrible crime while completely ignoring the crime that is throwing one’s own people into war.
@@Methus3lah the Karstarks and the northern lords were almost all eager to join Robb and punish the Lannisters for Ned's death. They would always join Robb, they weren't forced.
@@masterplokoon8803 Were the peasants eager? Were they eager to match south into a foreign land to avenge the death of a fairly distant lord? Somehow, I doubt that the peasants were that excited at the prospect. Rickard Karstark may have been eager to March south, but were his sons? We honestly don’t know, but they would’ve been made to March south whether they wanted to or not.
The Karstarks were just an example, however. I’m trying to illustrate that these wars were largely pointless and destroyed thousands of lives for the will of the few.
@@Methus3lah his sons were pretty eager to fight for Robb too and their initial victories help save part of the Riverlands from Tywin's slaughter, they saved the Tullys and helped them defend their subjects who were suffering an unprovoked slaughter at the hands of the Lannisters.
Another thing about Stannis is that he is a subversion of the evil king in the castle trope. Dragonstone in the show wasnt impressive but book dragon stone is full of statues of gargoyles, demons, wyverns, basilisk it sits on an inactive volcano and it is always smoky and it smells like brimstone (fire and brimstone mean anything) and its made of blackstone. In a standard fantasy setting stannis would have been like a sauron figure or morgoth. Meanwhile out of all the 5 kings, stannis is arguably the best king. Even if he isnt Azor Ahai, he is still doing what he is doing for the greater good or selfless reasons. But as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I wouldn't call him a full subversion considering some of what he does.
Stannis gonna have a sad life and ending just like Rhaegar did. Both following the prophecy and doing what they think is right ultimately for the likes of Jon Snow to follow.
Yes! I've made similar arguments elsewhere over the years. He's a subversion of an overlord, like Mordred. He never laughs or smiles, has a flaming sword, is a skilled battle commander, has a crazy wife, a deformed daughter, an evil witch henchman, lives on a remote island fortress, is trying to steal the throne from his own nephew, uses dark magic, etc.
Show Stannis was shanked because he was one of the only characters moving the plot forward while Jon Snow and Daenerys sat around not doing much. They couldn't let Stannis win at Winterfell because that would tilt the scales too far in his favor amongst the fans.
100% as usual!! I love Stannis he is messy and flawed in many ways, but also a compelling character. Iconic Spare.
Truly iconic spare! There are few characters who are more entertaining than second sons in their flop era.
I believe Stannis' story is definitely meant to be a challenge to the concept of "the chosen one". However, I'm not sure if that is the main point of his character. Even for non-readers who only watched the show, and never got to know the depths of Stannis' character, it is obvious that he is not the chosen one.
I think that's mostly because they are drawn to other character more, especially Jon & Dany who seem to have a great destiny. I don't know if Stannis is meant to be a blatantly obvious red herring, but perhaps it would have been more subtle if he was unambiguously morally right, but very unlikeable.
Many fans fail to see Tyrion's deepest flaws because they read him as very likeable, despite George calling him a villain. I would even go further and say that I wouldn't be surprised if, in general, audiences prefer characters who are morally wrong but likeable over morally right and unlikeable.
Very very well said. I also believe people will overlook a character's negative flaws if they find them funny or attractive.
Charisma goes a long way
@@nostalgicbliss5547 Indeed
It’s because it’s a fictional story. Many people including myself love morally repugnant pieces of shit like Tony soprano and Dexter Morgan and Walter White not because we have any notion of them being moral or good but simply because they are entertaining to watch.
Nah Tyrion's fans come from the show 100%, where is goodie to shoes pacifist instead of his murderous, rapist self in the books
I think part of the reason Stannis is so appealing is that upon first reading, he's so jarringly mundane compared to the other "fated heroes" that it's almost laughable. How could someone so gruff and hard bitten of a man ever fill the role that a more traditional author would have given to the young and handsome Robb Stark without a 2nd thought. But Robb is dead and Stannis is still alive, even after his calamitous defeat at the Blackwater. There's something cathartic about rooting for the underdog and his entire arc in the story has made me reevaluate my stance on prophecy not as a designation determined by birth but as a mold that could be filled by someone with enough grit to do it.
I also think that Stannis' character speaks to the agnostic minded reader who on some level wants to believe that there's something real guiding hand that can transform a otherwise inconsequential life into one of greatness. It's rather ironic and horrifying then that Stannis will eventually find out that he's the pawn of a malevolent being beyond his comprehension and that his "destiny" is to die horribly in service to it.
LOL totally, and I love that GRRM does this with his fantasy stories. Like yes, here you have the teenage boy with a magical pet whose on a quest to avenge his murdered father, and against him you can have Joe from accounting whose main personality trait is his severe eczema and who has been waiting on a good promotion for years.
@@HillsAliveYT wouldn't really call stannis mudane by any definition.
Never clicked so fast
My Queen, are you somehow trying to imply that Stannis is not in fact, The Mannis?
I mean he might be A mannis but I don’t think he’s THE mannis.
These two comments are the best
@@HillsAliveYT what’s sad unlike Dany I feel
He will die self aware of all his failings while Dany just like show will die or live in willing ignorance
@@HillsAliveYT There is no THE mannis. There are no chosen ones. That's the point. The trope was already subverted before the story of the novels even began.
It's just people being people.
@@HillsAliveYTa lie, take it out.
For all his flaws, Stannis is the only Lord who sees beyond the petty squabbling of the Westerosi to the real threat (in spite of his own pettiness). I think his role will be to get the other Lords to focus on the threat from the Others. There's no single hero in this story, everyone plays a role.
i agree i don't beleive that their is a "chosen one" like your typical fantasy story
@chair shot to the head Three. And one of them is Victarion. Is Victarion the prince who was promised?
Very pertinent analysis!! I had never seen Stannis like that, but it's true he's a good reflection of the other characters who think they're the heroes of the story (*cough* Daenerys *cough*)
Yeah, she’s not the only one who is going in the direction of doing whatever they think is necessary for their version of the greater good, but she’s one of the most relevant parallels to Stannis.
@@HillsAliveYT what about rhaegar
@@wolfsbanealphas617 especialy Rheagar. he was the one most consumed by his supposed great destiny, thinking that the world revolves around him because of something he read in a book
@@kikima258 I first thought the obesssion was a coping mechanism for dealing with the fact every time it his birthday he’s reminded of the fact all their family members are dead but then I think he took that tragedy a d made it all about him which is why he goes to summer hall all the time to remember his mission or destiny he’s all woe is me just like Dany who took her brothers death and only took from that he wasn’t a dragon I don’t even think she cared about the abuse because if she had she would have said something akin to it but no she says he wasn’t a dragon leaving it unsaid but I am a dragon
Stannis is the one true king and I will hear no arguments against it.
Very adult behavior (no).
My take is that even tho he's obviously not Azor Ahai, some of his choices can still be valuable to the fight against the Others. After all, he saved the Wall under the believe that there, in the North, he would find the "demons of ice and snow" that he was destined to fight. Thats not true but now the Night's Watch has a chance. He's also trying to unite the North and whatever he may accomplish in that campaign can be benefitial against the Long Night. Hell, even burning Shireen, who without a doubt has valyrian/targaryen/king's blood, may have an important effect against the Great Other.
Excellent video Hills. Keep them going.
If Stannis Baratheon ordered us to march through the Seven Hells and back again, I’m in the Vanguard 🫡
Stannis the Mannis is the true king, and I’m expecting his inevitable sacrifice to be absolutely critical in the war against the Others. He will retake Winterfell, and will die holding off the oncoming storm long enough for the armies of the living to rally together to perform the counterattack.
You have no idea how long I waited for a video about Stannis Baratheon.
Thank you, mate
"And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI." George R. R. Martin
I love your channel, thank you for taking the time to do so many interesting deep dives and sharing them with us. It always makes me happy to see one of your videos in my sub feed.
Honestly, I think Stannis is perhaps the best if not one of the top 3 characters that represent the best criticism against a feudalistic society and a fantastical notion of how the world works (which is starting to seep into modern day politics strangely enough).
The thing is that Stannis is indeed a just and lawful man. The problem here is that the laws and morals of Westerosi society are so warped in a way that it reinforces opression and exploitation, that a truly just man, by these standards, looks like someone like Stannis. He is the result of people that attribute legitimacy and moral authority to superstitious factors such as birthright, prophecy amd etc.
4:50 You're mistaken. In Stannis POV chapters it gets clear Stannis wasn't aware of Melisandre's plan. He slept and had a nightmare the night Renly died and that's it. Afterwards he just says to Davos (and it would be totally against his character to lie): Melisandre saw Renly dying in the flames but she didn't bring it upon him, on the opposite, she urged Stannis to go parley with Renly one last time to give him the chance to avoid that fate. He might be dissociating here but it wasn't his decision like you make it sound. It's peculiar how different ASOIANF bloggers get some characters spot on, and don't do the justice to some other characters. While it's understandable from a human point of view, that's not how Marting supposed it to be, with his love for grey characters, internal conflicts and all.
I can't believe it has taken you this long to make what is probably your most correct video to date.
Also always thought it was a bit strange that the show gave him indo-persian armour
LOL I never noticed the armor but maybe it was Melisandre’s influence?
Perhaps it is because r'hllor is inspired from zoroastrianism? And the costume designers found it fitting.
@@HillsAliveYT it's the little details. But don't get me started. Stannis is supposed to be master of ships and oh boy, his grasp of naval tactics leaves something to be desired
@@normtrooper4392 Well to be fair, he got that title from Robert after sitting out a siege in a castle. I think it had more to do with being Robert's brother than anything else.
@@angrynerdgirl i mean, on the other hand, he crushed the Greyjoy rebellion as the Master of ships, so he knows his shit (but George probably doesnt lol)
This might be your best analysis to date. You articulated the gist of what I've always felt about a character that creates so much passion within the fandom. Stannis is without a doubt a great character. But he's not a great character because he's the chosen one. It's the opposite. *Stannis is a great character because he's going to fail.* Stannis' righteousness and rigid sense of duty is his most honorable trait and simultaneously the reason of his undoing. In this, Stannis embodies the perpetual duality of ASOIAF. Stannis is selfless, he's devoid of personal greed and ambitions. Yet, we see Stannis' moral fibre being slowly stripped away in a futile pursuit of a messianic vision. What is the commonality between ASOIAF Stannis and Dany's arc in the show? It's the element of fanatical faith in their purpose. A "True Believer" of sorts. In Martin's philosophy these "end justifies the means" characters of destiny are not supposed to win. The prophetic destiny is supposed to turn out to be cruel illusions. Stannis' arc converging in the North never made me go "this is finally his time for glory!". It actually made me more convinced that his story was always supposed to be one of tragic downfall. That's because deep down we all know the Starks taking back Winterfell (as opposed to being handed) is the most fitting full circle. It's A Time for Wolves folks, not A Time for Stags. Stannis fans who look at Stannis as the Wolverine type loner anti-hero who's gonna sit the throne, swing the flaming lightsaber, and save humanity from The Others actually do a disservice to how much more depth the character actually has. I am of the belief that Stannis' story will end in disaster, but it will light the path of the actual promised one.
He's not going to fail. He will back down on his own if anything
@@CandVocaloiziiPlang1 Gotta agree to disagree. But ofc it's just my interpretation and I can be totally wrong. My only thing is that let's say when(if) Winds comes out and Stannis emerges the victor. You can still say with reason that maybe GRRM had little choice but to go the total opposite direction with Stannis given the amount of Stannis discourse we had over the years. He's become one of the most unintentionally popular characters and GRRM probably felt backed into a corner. In hindsight, I really wish we had gotten a definitive answer to Stannis in ADWD.
This is one of your most brilliant and insightful analyses. Your discussion of how the ends don’t justify the means in pursuit of a greater good made me consider how GRRM’s Vietnam experience likely colored a lot of the philosophy behind the books. Applied to fantasy and contemporary politics and movements, what he’s trying to say makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, there’s something of a nihilism to his outlook. There’s an underlying hunger in the story for just one person who almost always does the right thing, which is what makes Ned, Ser Duncan, and even Jon Snow so gravitationally appealing.
I think that the Vietnam war inspiration is probably super relevant here and in ASOIAF in general too, because that is a great example of horrific actions taken under the belief that the ends would justify the means, except the ends that were supposed to happen never actually did happen anyway.
i have been waiting for this, Great video!!!!
Stannis’ blunt nature is what got me on his side. This series is chock full of people who hide under layers of lies, but Stannis has never been anything other than brutally honest about his ambitions.
Stannis on Rhaenyra: *“She was the daughter of one king and the mother to two more, but she died a traitor’s death for trying to usurp her brother’s throne”*
- this quote sums up both Stannis and Rhaenyra for me. Great video @HillaAlive 💚🤌🏼
Rhaenyra was NOT trying to USURP her brother's throne. She was trying to take BACK the throne FROM her usurper half-brother, Aegon II. She was the rightful heir, as named by her father, King Viserys I.
Stannis was also not trying to usurp his brother's throne. His brother was dead. Stannis knew that Joffrey was not Robert's child, therefore he was not a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. As Robert's oldest living brother, he would have been next in line to the throne.
Of course, ROBERT himself was a usurper, having taken the throne after his brother-in-law (Jaime) killed the mad king. Should've actually been the next Targaryen in line....but no one would want Dany's brother Viserys to be King. He was NOT fit to rule ANYTHING. Plus, I think he was a young child at the time of the mad king's death. Not sure who would've ruled as Regent until he came of age. His mother died in childbirth. The hand, perhaps. Not sure who that was after Tywin resigned...
@@carastone3473 My lady I’m afraid you do not yet see the error of your ways. Please come to Oldtown and look at Targaryen family trees and the laws of succession.
A king’s “chosen heir” has never been a legitimate factor. What has been a factor is male primogeniture for better or worse.
Was Aegon I usurping his older sister Visenya? Was Jaehaerys usurping his older sister Rhaena? Was Viserys usurping his elder cousin Rhaenys? Too much logical inconsistency on your side I’m afraid
@@carastone3473 the setting is medieval so Aegon is the legitimate heir and Rhaenyra was indeed a usurper whatever you like it or not
@@carastone3473 Why don't you tell that to the maesters that wrote the books that made Stannis think and say that lol Like it or not, Rhaenyra WAS the usurper and Aegon II was the king during those years and thats what the westerosi remember.
And not even in reality was Aegon an usurper. Westeros isn't an absolute monarchy and not even a king can break law or tradition unless his lords allow him to do it and that allowance is reflected in the history books and in who got the upper hand, as it was a civil war with two factions with arguments and solid positions and not a massacre of the small, usurping green side. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon had valid claims but only one persevered: Aegon's, thus making him the rightful king, thus Aegon III (Rhaenyra's son) being considered Aegon II's succesor and not his mother's and thus Stannis saying that.
Rhaenyra fans are never beating the "don't know how Westeros work" allegations I'm afraid.
@@carastone3473 King’s can’t just choose their heir Willy Nilly. Holy shit do you understand the utter chaos that would cause?
For one thing, a king could nominate a fucking house servant to be the next king if they chose, after all their decision apparently comes before tradition. And this would cause a lot of forgery or who was chosen by bad actors.
Second, this would inevitably trickle down to the nobility as well. Imagine the fucking chaos - for multiple generations - that would emerge from the debate between the chosen heir and the traditional heir. And again, forgery from bad actors. It would be a world of might makes right would only the most ruthless, treacherous, conniving, backstabbing, flattering, and selfish nobles got the power from titles, armies, castles, etc.
What an absolute hell-hole Westeros would be then. Regardless of any individual psychopaths on the Green team, their cause was clearly the right one.
Stannis is one of the most interesting characters in the book series. And arguably the best Baratheon we've seen so far. But I will always personally look at him sour ways for what he did to poor sweet Shireen. I hope the book takes a different path than that, but it's unlikely. But I respect the hell out of him to be the only noble to help Jon and the Night Watch. Stannis is the man, but is not The Man.
Iirc some of the last words we see from Stannis in the book are to run to Shireen and crown her if he falls in battle. I highly doubt he will burn his heir. It makes no sense for his succession or his character (having previously refused to burn nonbelievers).
I do think Selyse and Mel will do it, though. They're with her right now and Stannis isn't.
shireen isn't even with him she is at the wall, stannis even names her as his heir before leaving ordering his men to fight for her in case he dies, it's milessendre who will burn her. it was already forshadowed with jon switching gilie's baby with mances's son because he was affraid mel will burn him for his king's blood now she only has shireen
LOL well Shireen is defo my favorite Baratheon so far so if/when Stannis kills her, he's dead to me. I would really like it if he doesn't too, but the ASOIAF nerds who are way more well-versed in history and mythology than I am have convinced me of the Agamemnon/Iphigenia parallels with Stannis and Shireen.
@@HillsAliveYT Shireen does make solid case for being the best Baratheon. Damn now that you mention it, they are major parallels between Stannis/Shireen and Agamemnon/Iphigenia. This only fills me with a more melancholy and dread.
@@angrynerdgirl The problem with this is that it makes it seem as if he cares for his daughter. He is doing that out of duty, which is a characteristic of his, if he falls, he doesn't want his cause to end and the only heir is his daughter. Not making her heir out of love but out of duty.
The next thing about him not sacrificing her isn't a strong argument. Him not being near his daughter isn't a permanent thing and he could reunite with his family in the book, I doubt that he would remain in one place throughout an entire book that's larger than the previous ones.
Another problem with the whole Selyse and Melisandre making the decision is it doesn't make as much sense as the king doing it. He is willing to sacrifice as he said so himself. Here is a quote from A Storm of Swords “I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady.”
We need to remember in the books that the first sacrifice may not be Shireen as there is the child of Gilly who was switched over for Mance Rayder's child by Jon as he didn't want the child to be sacrificed for king's blood, he also sent Aemon Targaryen away for the same reason, fearing that he too may be sacrificed after Stannis is recognised who he was.
There is a thing that saving these people from sacrifice may be the reason why Shireen becomes the sacrifice. The part Shireen is playing in this is nissa nissa and it's going to be part of prophecy which makes sense for Stannis to be there.
Other sacrifices are Asha and Theon but they may escape is what I think. The sacrifice in the books is not going to be like the show where they clear some snow. Melisandre spoke of waking some dragon in the wall, I don't know if the sacrifice will actually bring something magical. However Stannis as I quoted has admitted that he would sacrifice a child to save a million from the dark and that child is likely his own. He already tried to sacrifice Edric Storm who was the child he was originally talking about in that quote.
When Stannis asks Cortnay Penrose to hand over Edric Storm, Cortnay is reluctant and protective of the boy. Stannis takes this as an insult as he is annoyed that Cortnay believed that he would ever harm the boy, but when it came to sacrifice he was willing to harm the boy which proved Cortnay right. Edric was only saved by Davos and some loyalists to the faith of the seven.
So him saying something, doesn't mean that he won't do the opposite.
He may see that the only way in defeating the Others is to make a sacrifice and this could be how it goes down.
If he doesn't survive that battle then it can't be him who makes any sacrifice. We don't know much until the book comes out but the view that he would never sacrifice his own daughter is not true. He is capable and willing to sacrifice if he believes it has a benefit.
The problem with Melisandre and Selyse doing it is what are the consequences? I doubt Stannis will outlive Melisandre as she is important to the plot. It being Stannis already has consequences as he is willing to do what it takes to win.
Him refusing to burn nonbelievers was more about his allies being nonbelievers and he couldn't burn them for that as he needs them. However 4 guys are caught doing cannibalism and are burnt, they do the religious chants while burning them Godry waits for Stannis to come out before burning them. Asha witnesses this and finds it cruel even compared to drowning of the ironborn. She also acknowledged one of the guys goaded Clayton Suggs into killing him so he died without being burned alive, she saw that as clever. Stannis watched the men burn and until the screaming had stopped and returned to the watchtower.
Suggs is eager to see Asha burn and says the 4 guys were a beggars offering and wouldn't stop the snow. While pointing towards Asha's king's blood.
I rooted for Stannis hard in the books first read through. He was best positioned to beat the Lannisters in Clash of Kings. And his decision to go to the Wall was really epic story moment. Upon further readings I'm more aware of his flaws. I will never forgive the show for having him kill his daughter, so shockingly out of character I don't think he'd ever go that far.
FINALLY.A VIDEO ABOUT STANNIS.
I read the Dragonbone Chair mostly as background for ASoIaF, in that series the most analogous character is led to be the living body for a long unbodied powerful spirit. I think the resurrection of Jon will tear a hole that Azor Ahai steps through to seize Stanis’ body.
I never got the feeling that he believed to be AA, but that he is playing Mel for her power. When she is not around he is not fanatical. When going to Winterfell he refuses to give non believers to the flames and tells his soldiers to pray harder. And in the place he is now there is a weirwood tree he didn't burn. He believes in Mel's powers but not in the gods. Also the original AA was not a good person, since he sacrificed his wife, a morality similar to Stannis'.
Criminally understated channel. Just found you and making my way through the videos. Interesting and insightful perspective.
Fascinating analysis, even though it's the complete opposite of my take on Stannis. I always interpreted him as a deconstruction of the classic fantasy villain rather than the chosen one. He is gloomy and unpleasant, he is the unpopular brother to the king, he has a witch as an advisor, and he will do anything for the throne. What frustrates me to no end, and ultimately doomed Game of Thrones, in my opinion, is that the writers actually read him and Daenerys at face value and removed a lot of the nuance from both character arcs. As a result, the narrative goes out of its way to make Daenerys look heroic and Stannis look villainous, even though ASOIAF is all about morally grey characters. Anyway, always good to see a new video from you, keep up the good work.
Stannis is the only one worthy of sitting on the iron throne. He maybe not a good man, but good ruler isn't always a good man.
the thing is that Stannis fills the "typical fantasy king" void created by the death of Ned Stark, who himself had so many issues.
it would be tragic to see him become a general in the Army of the Dead
Hey, I’m a huge GOT nerd and it’s so refreshing to hear ur takes. I feel like the fandom is so male dominated that a lot of the commentary ignores a lot of important context because of their personal viewpoints and as a queer women it can be really exhausting to see it over and over again so thanks for the content. (This doesn’t necessarily apply to this video in particular or Stannis as a character just the fandom as a whole). Also idk if ud ever be interested but I think u would create some really interesting what if scenarios if u ever wanted to explore that. Either way hope ur having a good day ur content is always a nice surprise :)
I think both Stannis and Ned Stark represent justice and honour in this story. Ned died for the one true claim and it was only fair for Stannis to die trying to free winterfell. Both tried to do the right thing but ultimately failed bcuz the world isn't honourable nor just. Both of them had a significant impact on Jon who'll also follow the righteous path and suffer just like his true father.
this is such a good video explanation for people that think danny would never go mad or the character writing went bad
I feel like Stannis is literally the only competent enough ruler to actually keep his word when he says so (,,i will have to save everyone to keep the kingdom), but if we put in the ecuation his immense empathy and actual wish to save EVERYONE....then he literally is the most important character
On Vacation in Spain, so did not watch this till now! Amazing Take!
He may not be Azhor Ahai but he is without a doubt The King Who Cared.
He is our King. By way of conquest representing House Baratheon, and by blood as his is descended from his ancestor Aegon The Conqueror. I will always support him, because he is human. He is not perfect.
Daenerys became what people thought Stannis would turn into if he hatched dragons
*pushes up glasses* “well book Stannis…”
Stannis Baratheon, The Trueborn, The Flaming Fury, Lord of Storms End, Lord Paramount of The Stormlands, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of The Realm.
This feels like a sequel to your video about Targaryen Madness and Aegon’s prophecy.
I think that Stannis is a really admirable character in a lot of ways given the world he lives in. There is a really strong reason why someone as honorable and noble as Davos would devote his life to Stannis. He's just in a way most Westerosi Lords simply are not. That said, he commits atrocities in the name of that "justice," which is inexcusable. He is most definitely not the chosen one, but I don't think he'd be the worst king in comparison to Robert or some of the Targaryen kings. I hope he retakes winterfell from the boltons, and dies fighting the others in Winds.
For me Stannis has always been the kind of person you want near the throne but not on it. Personally I would make him master of coin.
More likely as Master of Laws
@@diegonatan6301 I actually think Stannis is too inflexiable to be Master of Laws, particularly if the laws themselves are unjust. Whereas if he was Master of Coin his relentless nature, incorruptibility (at least where gold is concerned) and willingness to promote on merit rather than birth would make him excellent at looking after the treasury. At least in my opinion.
King Stannis is the only hero left alive in the books right now
To me it doesnt even feel like Stannis strictly *desires* to be king, i feel like hes just 100% in on the cultural norms of his time, so he genuenly feels the obligation to be king, since his claim is arguably the best, like him not managing to sit the throne wouldnt be so much a hit to his ego or ambition, but more of a cognitive disonance, its not just that he has a right to rule, he has an obligation to.
Wich makes me think he would make a good king, because he has zero personal ambition besides being king, so he wouldnt be blinded by personal desires or greed (i think), wich means that once he became king he would probably do it the most safe and vanilla way possible, surrounding himself with experts and just trying to create a prosperous era because thats what good kings do and hes an overly literal guy that only wants to be king.
The weird thing about Stannis is he is entirely unlikable, but that makes him very likable to me. Very odd character George somehow made me love in asoiaf.
One thing I have noticed is GoT tells the same story multiple times. It’s just that the faces change. Stannis most assuredly follows follows Robb Stark’s arc and it didn’t end well for either of them. They were both kings but made some rash decisions that doomed them. It’s almost as if the story is trying to drive home that trope is flawed and it will be subverted. I am reminded of Sansa’s quote to Jon in the first episode of season 7 how both their father and Robb made stupid mistakes and lost their heads for it. The genius thing GoT did…and it looks like GRRM did in the books…is give the same story over and over again but the ones who actually pay attention and learn the lessons of others’ failures are the ones that are going to break the cycle or “break the wheel” if you will.
Hell no the show runners hated stannis and killed him off stupidly also rushing things because of wanting to do star wars .
Going over the differences between show and book will show you the butchery.
Show stannis
Beaten at the black water (and just mopes around)
Begs the iron bank for money
Gets bamboozled by 20 good men
Burns his daughter for a snow storm to disappear
Just suicidal marches upto winter fell with no plan .
Book stannis
The iron bank seek him
He takes Jon's advice on how to handle the north (gaining support of northern houses and mountain clans)
Freeing deep wood motte from the iron born helped him get support and actually went against his original plan (proving that he isn't inflexible)
His daughter wife and fire worshipper are up at castle black
As of now is in a crofters village coming up with a plan on how to handle the frey and Bolton forces he's been in shit before (storms end siege is similar to the point just now )
As for the burning shireen I reckon the fake pink letter that says stannis is dead will be a lie yet will lead to Mel and selyse burning shireen to resurrect stannis which in turn will resurrect jon (when Mel asks to see the chosen one in the fire the fire showed her literal snow)
Or stannis will do it in a grave situation when the walkers attack and realises its for nothing and goes down swinging .
@@rhysoneill7399 they killed him off because the actor who played him wanted to leave for another project. Stannis wasn’t going to be there at the end so they just moved up his ending.
@@jjh2456stannis decisons weren't rash and were very different from robbs. He's arguably the worst long you could have compared him to.
Ooh rewatching this for the first time in a year.
Yeah this is a pretty good analysis. I think you hit on number of key points. He's not going to be king. Shouldn't be king. He's not the chosen one. And correctly show how Stannis's choices make no sense in this context. I also think your moral analysis is basically sound. The characters are wrong in many ways, including morally. Identifying with them is part of the trap laid for us by the author.
That said, I have a different analysis of Stannis's actions and motivations which I think resolves some of the contradictions. I hope you'll consider giving my new videos a watch.
I think George likes ambiguity his readers can argue over. While some characters will do evil things in a good cause that achieve nothing: that won't always be true. Someone, not necessarily Stannis, is going to use horrible methods that do help avert the apocalypse. Having this be a story where the moral is unambiguously: the ends never justify the means doesn't seem like him. I think if the series is ever finished he wants videos like this debating it: Could the world have been saved without Hot Pie, or whoever, doing that horrible thing they did.
Stannis is probably the best choice for king which is exactly why he won't sit on the iron throne.
I just felt bad everytime he made a bad choice I wanted him to end up better😢
I like the idea that Rhaegar Targaryan was actually the real chosen one, and because he's dead before the beginning of the books, they're essentially all screwed, and just have to the best with what they've got left
I absolutely adore the Mannis. Truly the king who cares and as foolish as it for me to want him on the Iron Throne because it's unlikely to happen, that just makes me love him more. Danerys who? WE STAN THE TRUE KING OF THE 7 KINGDOMS.
"hundreds will die"
"Thousands."
THE GOD DAMN MANNIS
I suport book Stannis because Stannis is the only one of the candidates to the throne that has earned to right to call himself "Protector of the Realm", when the wall was about to fall he was the only king who cared and answered the call despite being the one with the smallest army, he made compromises with the Night's Watch and the wildlings to protect the realm from the white walkers.
The day you post a new video is always a good day 😂💛
Btw, this is probably a stupid question but what do you think Stannis's exact involvement in Renly's death was? Did he know Melisandre's plan in detail? Did she just tell him that she'll kill Renly? Or did she tell him only that she'll have him "taken care of"?
I honestly don't know but I don't think that Stannis would care that much either? Given his general attitude of "this must get done and it will be done by any means necessary" I imagine that he may not have known but may not have cared what was going to happen as long as it did happen.
Thank you.
Stannis feels neuro atypical to me.
And his status as legitimate heir is exploited by what's her name, which brings out his resentment of being in Robert's shadow, but also of having been socially ostracized for his atypicality.
I got the sense, as with Tyrion for his dwarfism and Cercae for her sex, that, had the culture been more accepting and appreciative of diversity, their true talents and skills would have flourished and benefited the society that marginalized and rejected them.
But the only support he received was unquestioning and unchallenging devotion and obedience from one person and melodramatic ego massage from another.
He was too damaged, estranged, socially naive to resist either.
I feel like Stannis would’ve done well with some role in Robert’s small council that required firm control. Master of Ships is whatever, but Master of Laws or (possibly) Coin could’ve been a better fit. Stannis almost seems to relish his sternness and wouldn’t be bothered by being seen in a somewhat negative light for his role in the legal system or taxes. Maybe he would also do well with someone he respects being there to balance out his rigidity with “hey so this is a royal wedding/tourney and it’s really important we spend money on this frivolous thing”.
This is my perspective as a neurodivergent person who sees a bit of myself in Stannis 😅 (not the burning people and religious fanaticism tho)
@palantiri6590sleeping with Mel does not make him heterosexual. He could be doing it solely for her power. Or even he's bought into the narrative that as a man he has to like women sexually and so he has sex with her because he thinks he does even though he doesn't.
It's the Burning Heart, as the Notacast podcast guys would say. Stannis took his heart and set it on fire. That's what his story is about, and why it's leading up to the sacrifice of Shireen. It really sucks because I like Stannis a lot. He's so flawed, but comes so close at times to being a great leader. I also like survivors who pull of unexpected comebacks.
Gloves will warm my hands
Socks will warm my feet
A burning devotion to Westeros' one true king will warm my heart and soul
Ah, yes. The Mannis himself. Fantastic food for thought!
I tend to think about themes or lenses and then consider how they apply to the various ASOIAF characters. When I think of Stannis, I immediately go to rigidity vs flexibility. An inability to bend and compromise is a fatal flaw for several characters, and Stannis is among the most rigid of all George's characters. And yet, Stannis has shown an ability to bend reality/tradition to fit his inflexible vision...just enough to make him interesting. 😂
yes! you call for a break from writing my degree and I follow❤
I see Stannis as an sort-of replacement for Ned Stark’s character after his untimely departure. He has a very similar devotion to his (admittedly warped and flawed) perception of honor and duty, but unlike Ned he is far more willing to ‘play the game’ and has a more ruthless attitude towards the events which befall himself and the realm.
Will you do a video about the faceless men?
I am not really buying that book Stannis will have anything to do with Shireen's death. I am more expecting her to be burnt by Melisandre as a sacrifice to bring Jon Snow back.
Well I could be misremembering but I think George told D&D that it would happen.
@@HillsAliveYT I think he said she will burn, but he didn't specify by whose order. She is back at the Wall with the queen and Melisandre, while Stannis is approaching Winterfell. I don't think either of them will teleport ;).
Not to such lengths. Plus there are other widely discussed reasons why book Stannis is unlikely to follow his tv show version example.
@@KeselethStannis will order it. GRRM told D&D that is how it would go down. Just let it go at this point.
@@jjh2456 I googled it and you are in fact correct. I wasn't aware of the more recent statements, only the earlier ones that were much more vague. Well, it's his narrative choice (though I doubt he will ever manage to put it in writing) and I will leave it at that. No point in starting a criticism of it here ;).
I think the greatest fault of Stannis as a leader, even beyond the horrible acts he commits, really comes down to his religion. Even Aegon the Conqueror knew he had to at least nominally follow the Faith of the Seven if he wanted to rule. And there's a reason Baelor was one of the most popular kings in history among the smallfolk. Stannis on the Iron Throne openly associating himself with R'hllor could only lead to a mass rebellion of the faithful. Especially if he came to power after the reformation of the Faith Militant. Even a follower of the Old Gods claiming the throne would likely face quite a bit of pushback despite being more familiar and accepted than R'hllor.
Stannis the Mannis. The real stag. A man without friends, a man without power. One with true claim.
I mean, we haven't seen a single Phyrexian in the story so far, so clearly the compleation ending isn't happening. and the 'Others' refuse to go beyond the wall so the good ending of frozen death is not happening either. So the only endings we have are if GRRM admits defeat or if the Sweetrobin discord is able to finish it. None of the story within the 4th wall matters beyond addiction peddling any more and likely hasn't since Magic: The Gathering released in 1993.
It’s a pity that Robert was so “distant” with his brothers. I am not sure that Stannis would’ve made the best King (too rigid for compromise) I think he would have made an excellent hand, if Robert could listen. Stannis rarely failed to heed good advice when it was offered, and his pragmatism would have matched well with Robert’s friendliness. Plus there is a decent chance he would have taken out Cersei before everything went to pot. But ASOIAF is full of what ifs so who knows ?
"We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt."
I think there is also something to be said about the least likely of the five kings being the last of the five living. I don't know what that means thematically, but I always thought that was neat.
Funny how he is considered unappealing in the novels but has a huge following among readers.
my man never got love in universe, but has a dedicated fandom outside of it.
Guess is partially what you commented down here; we root for the lonely kid.
However, what I trully like about him is that he doesn't care that people dont like him: He'll still try to save them (albeit maybe for egoistic reasons)
i'm all for mere men trying to give their best against impossible ods, giving their lives. I think Stannis shows how much George likes Boromir.
Stannis is Iron; he'll break before he bends
Have you done any videos on the Hound?
One thing I also like about the baratheon brothers in general is their parallel to the corleone brothers.
Sonny -robert both warrior types hot headed yet not cruel and not leadership material.
Michael-stannis neither want the responsibility of leadership yet through Duty to family/the realm they take the role on and it consumes them in the end.
Renly fredo-both are basically nothing boats that offer nothing and are made up of envy and spite who also betray a brother out of lust for power
Stannis is the cautionary tale of veiled hubris and thwarted ambition. That was what I most responded to.
It’s ironic that he brings up Rhaenyra to Shireen. Their stories are awfully similar.
But of course he convinces himself that this time is different...all of his choices are a different choosing and even as his heir is in an even less tenable position.
This video could have been one of those 'difficult pills to swallow' memes
Stannis the Mannis, best male character in ASOIAF
When I was reading the song for the first time in earlier years of the show, there was such a cult of stannis in the community I was a part of, it's disturbing how many ppl like him for apparent 'just' deeds when I was bored at best and repulsed with his character. I'm rereading now the story on last pages of dance and moving to song, and so excited to know my new opinions on character as an adult, cos oh my I loved 'the chosen' ones😂
Antoher thing the Stannis represents is the Whole Love is the death of Duty and viceversa. Everything he does has to be pragmatic of in the service of something else than himself
He wants to sit the Iron throne, Because it's law and he is the rightfull King
He wants avenge Ned Stark, Robert and Jon Arryn, not out of love but Because law demands retribution for their deaths
He wants to save Th world not Because he is particulary fond of it, but Because again; it was a duty thrusted upon him.
Of Course. I'm sure Stannis enjoys the idea of being the chosennone, of being King, of being admired. But i'm sure as well that if joff wasnthe lefitimate heir, stannis would have supported him during the War, that if Mel had Never showed up he wouldnt care/belive about the Others.
And i belive this will affect Jon as well. We all know Jon emulates his father figures.
During AGoT and first half of CoK he is idealistic like Ned, during the later CoK he is gruffed and humorless like Donal Noye, during a Storm of Swords he becomes more unruly just like Mance Rayder, and in FfC and DwD he is harsh and disciplined like Stannis
Oh that is one hell of a call out.
Stannis isn't father figure to jon in the books.
"Power resides where men believe it resides." I suppose, the chosen one will be the one who steps up and presents himself in the right moment, rallying the right people. In that vein, heck, maybe Tyrion turns out to be Azor Ahai in a dramatic climax, subverting even the in-universe expectation, foreshadowed by Blackwater. Would even have some symbolism with all the "Stannis as a sort of a corpse king" motif and whatnot. I am only half joking.
But if the chosen One trope IS wrong in this World how does King Bran make sense ?
Not critisising just very curious about that
I do believe that the chosen One trope IS wrong in this World but I still strugle to not see Bran as a chosen One himself and also a chosen One maker which really puzzle me
Well we'll see how thinks shake out but I think Bran might become king by rejecting his so-called "magical destiny"? Like, magic doesn't have very good connotations in the story overall, and I think a lot of the magical characters are either going to have to sacrifice their power for the sake of being better people, or will lean harder into their magic to their own destruction. But that's just a guess on how his character might subvert the destined king trope.
Bran won’t have kids, so can’t be the “chosen one”. The Others are a hive and their queen is either swarming or dying. Either way they just need a replacement queen, Jon and Daenerys’s baby girl, and they’ll be on their way back home. No hero to lead against the undead army is necessary, just one to make a “song”(girl) who is “Ice”(Stark*) and “Fire”(Targaryen *).
@@HillsAliveYT that make sense
Im curious how jon snow will contrast to stannis.
Jon has alot of chosen one vibes,secret lost son of the prince, comes back from the dead, played by kit harrington.
My feeling is he will be asked to do something horrible, he will just nope out.
If Eddard just stayed in the north, everything would of probably been a little bit better.
Sometimes not thinking you have to be the hero who fixes everything is the best thing to do.
He’s said the words damn you!
I don't believe horrible things MUST happen to yield positive results but that people WILL do terrible things if they believe they're in the right.
I'd love to see your analysis on the Dune franchise. ASOIAF and Dune are fun to compare and contrast
OMG I LOVE DUNE. I know this is incredibly fake fan of me, but I started getting into it after the Denis Villeneuve adaptation and the Dune movie is everything that my movie nerd, film-degree-having ass wants to see when I go to the movies. It's just so freaking great, it's still the last time I saw a movie that just melted my face off for every minute of screen time, I get why it was such a landmark book series, and I really hope the Dune universe becomes its own franchise. And yes, the similarities with Dune and ASOIAF (and honestly every fantasy/sci-fi franchise that came after Dune) are not few.
@@HillsAliveYT well let's hope Villenueve at the very least adapts Dune Messiah, otherwise imo it would be pointless to adapt dune without showing the consequences of Paul's actions and the Greek level tragedy it really is
And really "fake fan" is such a misnomer, you're new! Dune fans (at least the ones I met who aren't fans of the extended BS) loves new members and I'm sure that Denis knew he'd breath life back into this series with his adaptions! (But yeah please don't read into anything past book 6 it's essentially non canon)
Fine, you win, I’ll look up what meta textual means