I was in for almost 2 months and left , things were not adding up and I felt something was completely off and ofc I did my research which confirmed a lot of things. I definitely believe that was the Holy Spirit warning me
Yeah I was there for like a month and one night I was sick and didn’t attend their bible study. While I was praying, God told me to google them and leave. That day I left and never went back.
Dear Laurie, It has now been 7 months since I have left SCJ. I left maybe 7 months after I had fully passed over and have never looked back. Granted I was still a new member and did not experience much of what you went through. I am so sorry for the things you experienced. I am so glad I left, I had so many questions, many of which I never asked because I thought this was normal since it was so new to me. It was later down the line where I learned truly messed up SCJ is. I did about 2 days worth of research, listening to podcasts and watching a short vice documentary. This was when I knew I had to go. What really got me was, we were told to not pay attention to politics and voting was not important, Seriously, I can't even look at the bible without having the teaching screaming at me. Thank you for sharing your story. I hope to find healing.
Thank you so much for sharing. It's never easy to share 😪 because we would be labeled as the anti-christ, and those we consider friends and family will reject us because we no longer believe. It takes courage to voice one's testimony. It will definitely inspire and warn millions of people!
Are you just sceptic or free from the beast? Do you believe that Jesus is God or believe that their is another false messiah savoir? Are you free from satans lies and believe that Hesus is the only Way, TRUTH and the Life that He is the only doir( Joh 10) that whoever comes in by another is a thief and a robber. I see all the leaders make the same videos but know one say they free from the lies.Its just random stuff you guys are saying nothing about Jesus is God.! I think you gont wanna answer questions here gor all to see because you still with the beast and hav his mark 666. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD?
I'm a former member of World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG) . Great light studios led me here. I'm reading the comments from members of Shincheonji and they are very similar to comments from members of Wmscog. Gaslighting and passive aggressive. I'm so glad you are speaking out and I hope members of this high control group will be free.
It’s really refreshing I think to see content with an approach based on science and critical thinking. SCJ and psychological manipulation, more widely, is a public health risk. The more we rely on the scientific method to support claims, the more our voices as ex-cult members can be legitimised in the main, instead of dismissed, so this is really important imo. Thank you for taking the time and I’m looking forward to future videos.
It will be a public health issue soon because their manipulation is deep.It hits the core of who one is as a human being especially when this place is suppose to be the place of TRUTH!🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Depending on how you'd use it, wouldn't the reliance on scientific approaches and critical thinking also hurt Christianity as a whole? For example, I once saw an analysis which theorised that Jesus would have been too injured/frail to carry a heavy wooden cross twice his size, and that the explanation to how he dragged it was to split the cross planks in two, carry one beam of the cross while another person carried the other beam.
@@batterysurf great point. Yes I think it can to some extent. Science investigates the natural (physical) while religion deals with the supernatural (spiritual). Therefore, the two can be compatible under certain circumstances. Accepting a scientific worldview doesn’t necessarily require us to give up religion. However, problems can arise when religion makes claims about the natural world that is incompatible with science or claims about the supernatural that contain logical contradictions. Note that I value truth over tradition. I believe that everyone should have the right to their own opinions but not their own facts. Please feel free to criticize my ideas if you disagree. I won't really address things like you mentioned. I will address broad concepts and focus more on the thinking processes behind it. Note that the way you used theorized is not scientific language but colloquial language. If that type of language was used in an article or video then it could have been pseudoscientific.
Thank you very much for this very genuine and courageous video. I have left SCJ fter 5 yrs. The impact of it leaves you very messed up mentally. I was close to nvr leaving but my family and those closest to me helped me. God is good and I truly believe he will cont to guide each and every one watching. 🙏
Hey thanks for your video, it's good to hear from a higher longterm member. I was in SCJ Switzerland for a little while. Our Leader was from South Africa too. A really nice guy and I really hope he finds his way out.
I also left SCJ Switzerland this week, it was a ride. I also had to realize that they tried to indoctrinate/brainwash me. Many people also just need SCJ as a qucik fix for their problems.
@@kgizzla Left this week in Switzerland, congratulations! It would be nice to hear a bit more from you. If you want to share your "SCJ-experience" feel free to write me a pm.
Hi Shincheonji Skeptic, Thank you so much for your valuable video. I find myself in a lot of your thoughts and would be happy to connect. I'm writing from an account where we post our podcast episodes about our experiences in SCJ and how their mind control works. Anyways keep the good work up, all the best from Germany.
Your journey is informative about Shincheonji because it reveals a lot about what happens in the church. I'm glad you shared your story with us. Keep it up!
I'm currently a member of it now and I just did a thorough research about this organization and what I discovered really shocked me. I can't believe. I want to quit the course and I'm planning to quit. I'm just thinking about the personal information that I left with them. I'm such a fool for giving personal information to complete strangers 😭 will it be used against me? i really hope not.
Hello Robelyn From my experience they probably won't use your personal information in an illegal way. There has been cases where SCJ used people's personal information to pitch up at their work or home in order to convince them to come back to SCJ after they left without telling the leaders. Because of this I suggest that you clearly state to the SCJ leaders that you want to leave and be left alone. Be firm and set clear boundaries. At the end of the day, it's up to you what you want to do.
I was on a one-on-one session bible study via zoom for almost 2 mos with the one who recruited me and then referred me to a smaller group for bout 4 months session, then invited me to a bigger group for a course that will last for at least a year. Currently, I am in 2 mos now with the course and still on a lesson about the secret of heaven hidden in parables. I know I feel something off and ignore the red flag prior because I did ask my recruiter what church they belong to or are affiliated with and told me none but they are a group of volunteers and missionaries that came up a group during the pandemic. I did ask again my current teacher the same question but got the same answer. That's when I did my thorough research which pointed me to SCJ. To validate my doubts I even spent lots of hours watching their teachings on their official YT account and got surprised by the doctrines they have. Got fooled. I also watched podcasts, testimonies, social media, and some possible means..... and came up with the decision to just get out of it the soonest possible.
Part 2 of 2 I belonged to the Port Elizabeth church and we travelled to Cape Town end of March 2015 when Mr Man Hee Lee (or Seonsaengnim as referred to) as well as the apostle of the Phillip branch who we fell under since we were the Phillip(of the 12 disciples) branch when they came to South Africa. I remember sitting in the 2nd row the day of the service and I was so tired because so much preparation had to be done for his arrival such as practicing doing dance routine to welcoming him at the airport, run like a mad person at the airport after him and all the prep we had to do for the service, all this while having to pretend to have positive energy. The next day in the service, I had to sit upright and smile whole service and shout "amen" at the top my lounges, consistently. I hated that experience so much, it just didn't feel right. I remember asking James after the service if there wasn't a way I could go home. I have family in Cape Town and wanted to contact them so I could go home but my request was met with rebuke. I was asked how I could make such a request that when I just received the water of life directly from the One who Overcame, New John. I was just so sleep deprived since we didn't sleep since arriving in Cape Town the day before. At the end of 2015 I had exams and I really wanted to focus of them since my time at SCJ had a negative impact on my academic progress but I can tell you that period was the least focused I could possibly have been. I started missing services and activities and the harassment began. They started coming to my house unannounced. I stayed with my dad at the time and he started asking questions like who are these faces are that I've never mentioned or introduced to him, as you know in black homes, especially religious ones, parents want to see who your friends are. I fell ill because the anxiety was killing me, resulting in me missing an exam and I was starting to lose my hair the way I was stressed. The tipping point for me was when I got a call from Ziggy, who was one of the main guys in Port Elizabeth at the time. I was busy studying and I don't know why I took his call since I usually don't answer my phone while studying. He started the call all friendly and concerned, telling me he's happy to hear that I've recovered and he hopes my studies are going well. Then he changed the subject and the tone of voice as he changed the subject was one of the most chilling things and most difficult things to forget. He asked me if he could read me a scripture which I agreed to. I can't remember exactly what scripture it was but it was regards to those that don't make the 144000. Then he asked me what do I think will happen to me if I don't attend services, activities, etc. implying all those things he read was going to happen to me. I was so shocked and I remember telling him that it's really not a good time to speak because my mind was consumed with studies. I think that response triggered him and he started going off at me with scriptures and demanding I say which side I belong to (good seed/bad seed). I didn't respond and he switched the phone off in my ear. I was so shaken and that I struggled to study further. They would continue call me from different numbers and privates numbers since I didn't answer their calls and messages. Holidays arrived and my varsity friends which I became close with throughout the year invited me to go with them on holiday. I was so anxious during that time because it was holiday and it would've become incredibly difficult to hide what I was involved in from my family since university was my cover for where I've been disappearing to and was the only way get my dad's car. I decided to go on the holiday with my friends which was one of the most incredible getaways I've had. This wasn't received well by them but for the first time in my life I put my foot down and did something for myself. I felt my age again (21 at the time), young and refreshed and it gave me time to reflect on what I was involved in and whether it was a cult on not. I decided that I wouldn't go back and YOOOH I can't explain the fear and anxiety I went through. Every time something went wrong in my life, I was like, Ooooh, the Lord is punishing me for leaving. 2015 was probably the most difficult year of my life, and I still say that after years like 2020 and 2021 happened. 2016 came and until this day I regard it as the best year of my life. Not only did I feel liberated, but the religious chains that I was bound by, both through Shincheonji and the Pentecostal church was broken. I started genuinely enjoying and appreciating my life. I started being open to experiences, I mingled with people outside of the religious environment and made all kinds of friends, nationally and internationally. As much as the Shincheonji experience was a horrid experience, it changed my mindset about religion. Even growing up Pentecostal, which is considered radical, they are very judgmental to other Christian denominations. We strongly believed in being filled with the Spirit which many denominations don't preach and practice. Even the way we do praise and worship is different compared to those that say, sing from a hymn book. I think the word that was being preached at SCJ was good but it came with a catch and the emotional manipulation and how they trap you using the word, in my eyes don't make them distinctive from what I grew up with religiously. When I visit my old church, I just feel so disconnected and I cannot receive the word the way I used to. I wouldn't say I'm atheist but I'm just done with religion. I believe there is a God because to me, the Big Bang Theory is an even more absurd idea then the possibility of there being a God. I still have dreams about the anxiety I experienced during Shincheonji days. I haven't spoken to anyone about this ever and I plan on seeing a psychologist or therapy for my experience because as I typed this message I had to relive all the pain and negative emotions that I've been avoiding. My advice to anyone reading this, NEVER EVER stop asking questions and don't just believe anything, no matter how good it might sound. Be open to learn but don't allow anyone to indoctrinate you with their beliefs unless you can positively say that's the truth. Always trust your intuition. Cherish each moment with family and loved ones. And finally, you don't need a religion to be a good person and to be a productive member of society.
Thanks for your encouraging words. I know Ziggy. He later became an instructor and then youth leader in Cape Town. During MHL's 17th trip, I also slept very little and even had a panic attack. However, at that time I thought that I was experiencing the heart of a living martyr. I developed an unhealthy obsession with suffering, thinking that I deserved it and that it's needed to eventually receive eternal happiness. Regarding the big bang, the big bang is a cosmological theory that explains the expansion of the universe from a very hot and dense state to a less hot and dense state about 13.8 billion years ago. Some would argue that “the everywhere stretch” would be a better name than “the big bang” since it was not like something exploded into surrounding space but rather that space itself expanded. The big bang is a moment in time, not a point in space. It happened everywhere at the same time. The big bang theory does not teach that space-time came into existence from nothing, but rather that existing space-time expanded and changed in its state. We don’t know the origin of space-time. We know that the universe began to exist in its current state but we don’t know if the universe began to exist in its entirety. We don't know the origin of the laws of nature. There is good evidence for the big bang. Three key pieces of observational evidence lend support to the Big Bang theory: the measured abundances of elements, the observed expansion of space, and the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation.
I wonder if we ever met, I remember the church being small and not a lot of people had cars in 2015. I wish I knew that you left and maybe I did, but didn't reach out. Ever since joining, I always felt like something was off, but my thoughts are not God's thoughts etc. I'm sure you heard it all to. I want to believe Ziggy would not do that, he was a nice guy, but leaders were taught to counsel in this way. I'm sorry you went through all of this alone. I would want to meet you in person if possible. You can look at my channel details for an email address. I won't respond quickly though and I'll understand if you don't want to as well. I don't want to bring up any bad memories as those that came up with writing your comments here.
Thanks for sharing your story, it gave me so much clarity on this whole thing. I hope you're doing better now :) I just left during the introductions because my teacher gave me manipulative vibes. Mentioning about cults and such when I hadn't even brought it up. The thing that hurts more is that this cult was the only reason my old friend wanted to connect again with me. It feels bad. hope she and everyone can see the truth because this cult is bad news.
Dear friend, as a Christian I am so grieved and angry about SCJ. They twist something beautiful and free into chains. This is not the God of Jews and Christians nor Jesus at all. Thank you for exposing this cult.
Thank you for sharing, we’ve been struggling for my daughter she was recruited in college and now all she wants to do in life is to serve SCJ, we tried everything to help her get out but she won’t listen to us. She marry her bf who she recruited and now he is supporting her while she continues full time with their ministry. It’s so frustrating to see her wasting her life with this cult.
Rebecca Liu This Korean cult is ruining a lot of young people lives, and what’s so weird she’s letting them destroy her future. Only God can help her, Devil will never win!
@@foreverfaith1053 wow interesting. My friend was recruited out of USC and then they made her move to the OC. And now they transferred her to Washington DC. Insane. I’m really really strongly considering like going there myself. Shes ignored me for 2 years now. I’m the only friend that cares. I can’t believe this is happening in 2022.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am in SCJ for 2 years. I had doubts from the beginning. I tried to believe in SCJ, but I am still seeing logical and ethical errors here. SCJ is waste of time and highly developed manipulation.
I am now in Shincheonji since 3 years and I have different experience with the relationship between races. I know personally some people who are married to Korean or engaged. And because there are so many African people now there are also romantic feelings between races. Until today I haven't seen a problem and this is totally new for me. But I believe that where are people will be always be human problems. Especially if you are a full time worker in Shincheonji. Korean people have to accept that the people in different cultures are different and has to be treated in a different way. There was a church leader who was to much strict and they called him back to Korea. Love between the followers should be number one. But thank you for sharing your experience. As long as I feel good and saved I will stay. Humans will be humans until God is coming finally and changing the world.
Thanks for your comment. Yes I also know many foreign SCJ people who are married to Koreans. The former church head of South Africa (Korean man) got married to a South African woman. I think you might be over generalizing what I said. I meant that interracial marriage wasn't allowed in some of the regions I worked in (Philip tribe regions) for a specific time period (2014-2020). Furthermore, I have personally spoken to leaders from Peter tribe and John tribe who also said that interracial marriage wasn't allowed in the regions that they worked in. Man Hee Lee gave a sermon during November 2017 where he stated that races shouldn't mix through marriage. This caused a lot of confusion within members and no clear answers was given regarding why he said that. A while later the Philip tribe HQ communicated to us that no interracial marriage is allowed. They said it's a command from Man Hee Lee and should be obeyed as "God's law". This was only communicated to high leaders and we were told not to share this with those lower in structure because this could make them stumble. When people from different races would be interested in each other we would just break them up and tell them to focus on "God's work". I enquired about this to the general assembly in Gwacheon. They told me that there were cases where Korean leaders would be sent overseas to establish new SCJ churches in foreign countries. For immigration purposes they would get married to foreigners. However, many of the Korean leaders grew weak in their faith because of these relationships. They said this is why Man Hee Lee doesn't want there to be interracial marriage anymore. However, in Philip tribe overseas regions no interracial marriage was allowed. They would sometimes make exceptions if interracial couples dated already before SCJ or for certain struggling members. But leaders were not allowed to get married to someone from a different race under any circumstances at that time. Then later they changed the rules again by saying that you can get married to people from a different race as long as their skin tone is not too far apart from your own. Like for example white people could get married to brown people but not to black people. Black people could get married to brown people but not to white people. There were some exceptions that were made sometimes but it was purely up to the authority of the church leaders to decide if it was allowed or not. However, Koreans still couldn't get married to any non Koreans. Your statement regarding "where there are people, there will always be human problems" is simply stating the obvious. I have never met a person that didn't have that expectation. I didn't leave simply because of problems with people. I stated this explicitly in my video. However, the unnecessary suffering and confusion within SCJ is incompatible with an all knowing, all powerful and all loving God regardless of sin, Satan and free will. Let me give you some examples. There has been numerous cases where SCJ members have been raped by people outside of SCJ. There was a member who cried out to the God of SCJ to help her while she was being raped. Of course nothing happened. SCJ responded by saying that it's because of man's sinful nature, Satan's influence over the world and God giving free will to people. However, an all knowing God would have known what was happening, an all powerful God would have the ability to do something about it, and an all loving God would have done something about it. However, this supposed God didn't do anything. This implies that the God of SCJ valued the free will of the person raping her above her own well-being. Now this is grossly immoral. You would have to sacrifice your intellect and human dignity to believe in such a moral monster. But at the end of the day, there is no good evidence for the existence of the God of SCJ so I am just speaking hypothetically. There has been numerous cases where the way things are explained are very vague and confusing. This results in people leaving SCJ. Now SCJ believes that these people will receive eternal punishment simply for not being convinced of their doctrine. SCJ then labels these people as betrayers and think that there is something wrong with these people based on what they read in some book (the bible). This makes SCJ seem very closed minded and intellectually lazy. Why would an all knowing, all powerful and all loving God not intervene in this? This implies that the God of SCJ either doesn't know how to do it, can't do it or doesn't care. But at the end of the day, there is no good evidence for the existence of the God of SCJ so I am just once again speaking hypothetically. Humans have created gods for thousands of years to avoid taking responsibility for their actions and to deal with the harshness and uncertainty that comes from objective reality. It's great that you feel good and saved. Your religious belief seems to give you certain psychological benefits. However, there is one objective reality that binds us all together. Beliefs inform our actions, and actions have consequences. Superstitious thinking have divided human beings for a long time and have caused a lot of harm. While it might benefit the individual in certain circumstances, it has done a lot of harm to human beings overall.
@@SCJSkeptic You made some great points. But with this 'There has been numerous cases where SCJ members have been raped by people outside of SCJ', can you please share exactly where and what and when? I mean you can say this but where is the proof? Was it just hearsay? How do we even confirm it? Also, becoming a member of SCJ is nothing. Because there will still be divsion in Mt Zion, the sheep and the goats will be separated according to Jesus' words in the gospels, so not every 'member' is sealed. Jesus spoke about standing till the last day. Often times, people even if they are called 'members' can be doing their own things and often unwise. You said you left after 7 years so being a member does not mean anything.
@@mightylittlesnowflake2205 I'm not going to share about the specifics of those that were raped. It's a sensitive and private matter. I'm quite surprised you would ask such a question. You don't need to believe me that's fine. It's a matter of ethics and has no bearing on the truthfulness of the claims made by SCJ. So basically you're telling me I'm a goat haha. That's merely a label. What method did you follow to confirm supernatural causation? And do you perhaps have a response to my Rv 7 video?
I would say that information can get lost in translation as it is being passed down amidst other factors. So it is just basing on what you said here. I am not saying I do not believe you but I am asking you to show us the proof that such things happened. You don't have to get into the specifics but you are also being general. Like perhaps there are some news posted by media that speak about this? John the baptist was believed to be a true servant of God and Christianity today believes he is until we found out that he was actually swallowed up by the religious teachers in his time. He actually betrayed God by not obeying his job properly as the lampstand. Most never know. Judas Iscariot is one of the 12 disciples but he followed his own greed and lust. So what I am trying to say is we never will really know the entire picture, except God himself. It is not me who is labeling you a goat. If Jesus is really with Mt Zion and SCJ, then it is Jesus who is calling you a goat.
@@mightylittlesnowflake2205 I agree that information can get lost in translation. That's a valid point. These instances were not reported to government authorities so there are no documentation about those cases except for the personal testimonies of the SCJ members. You didn't respond to my question about supernatural causation or Revelation 7. I am yet to hear someone from SCJ demonstrate a reliable method to confirm supernatural causation. All they do is make assumptions and assertions. It's hard to take them seriously. Most of your comment assumes that the Christian god exists and that the bible is true. I reject both of these claims. You will need to demonstrate it with evidence. You also claim that god knows the entire picture, how do you know this? You are just asserting things. You read a book that you think is true, you have a specific interpretation of the book that labels me as a goat and agree with that interpretation. Then you are agreeing with Jesus' label of calling me a goat. This is the same as labelling me as a goat. Take some responsibility and stop hiding behind your supposed "messiah".
Thanks for your video, and thank you for the extensive list of resources. I'm taking classes now, my personality is highly skeptical of most things in life (which is how I happed upon your video) so I'm not sure how long I'll last. Right now, I'm just enjoying studying the bible.
I’m glad you got out of SCJ however am saddened you no longer believe in Christ and the Bible. I still believe. I was a Christian for 3 years before I got “recruited” to SCJ. After 6 months with them and figuring out who this supposed promised pastor was, I got scared and I left. I’m still healing. Praying for all of you.
Thanks for the kind message :) I have good reason and evidence for my conclusions though. I'm very happy with my secular worldview and proud of my decision to leave religious dogma behind me.
I copied and paste this from another video on which that I commented/expressed my experience - thank you Laurie for sharing yours! PART 1 of 2 I created this anonymous RUclips account because of the anxiety I still have from that experience. I've been trying to speak about it more and see other people's experience of it. It's been over 6 years since I've left but SCJ definitely left a mark in my life. In 2014, my parents were going through a divorce, they just split and moved into separate houses and it was probably one of the lowest points of my life. I felt so alone and heartbroken and I looked for refuge in my church as well as praise and worship. I didn't fit into social groups at my church at the time so I was very lonely and I started making varsity friends but we weren't close yet then. One day in the university library, I did a short prayer asking the Lord to help me grow closer to Him and send help, little did I know that the same prayer that would keep would get me involved in SCJ. When I left the library(Oct/Nov 2014), I bumped into this really pretty and friendly girl named Lerato. She asked me if I was Christian and if I'd be interested in joining a bible study with her for which I agreed on. I felt in that moment that the Lord was answering my prayer. I started having one of one session with a guy named Simon. He was a really nice guy, he was always reaching out to me and regularly took me out for lunch and this meant a lot to me at the time. When I went for the interview to join the bible study, that was the first time my gut feeling was against it. I was interviewed by a guy named James, who was very eager but there was just something about his eyes and aura that made me uneasy. In the interview they were very intent on letting me know that they're looking for people who are hungry to learn, which I was but I also wanted to know what I was getting myself into, then already they were very dismissive of my 10 thousand questions and told me to attend to find out. Also, they gave me Jehovah Witness vibes since they all wore black and white in the middle of the day and the lady wore white, which I later found out was the "heavenly attire". Our first few classes were done by a Korean guy named Joshua, I think. As I mentioned, I've got an inquisitive personality trait and as we got to the section about the scripture about the fisherman and the boat, and I remember being told something like God keeps the good fish on the boat and bad fish gets tossed back into the sea. So us leaving is the bible study is not our own doing, but simply God tossing out the bad fish. I also remember being told that the fish that wiggles and resists these preaching's are bad fish and will get tossed back into the sea(which is the world until they later taught us it's Christianity). I started realizing that this was theme of many of the classes when the parables were being reveled to us, especially when it was started being revealed who the one is who overcomes (Mr. Man Hee Lee). I stop questioning things because I didn't want to be "bad seed" and I wanted to be part of the 144000. Eventually our class was introduced into SCJ (Passed over - New Heaven, New Earth) and they had a massive service for us newcomers. I can remember how overwhelmed I felt that day. Everyone was so hyped and happy which is the opposite of my timid nature and everything was Korean cultured which also was quite a culture shock. I continued on but things in my personal life were unbearably difficult plus the demands of being part of Shincheonji was incredibly stressful. I was studying at the time (BSc degree). Due of my parents divorce a lot of responsibilities fell on my shoulders. The demands from Shincheonji were also insane, you are required to be involved in everything, and since I drove my dad's car I had to drop off people late at night after the midweek services or events, participate in funding raises, walks on campus trying to get people to join us and studying for the tests that you need to write in order to pass over(We graduated/passed over before completing our classes because we had to prepare for Mr Man Hee Lee's arrival is Cape Town in March 2015). Things were said to me like, because of the sacrifice and because I'm being martyred like those that were martyred to spread the word, my family will enter into the kingdom of heaven and receive all the heavenly gifts. I mean my family was going through hell so of course I was going to do everything to "save them". I stayed on and suffered throughout 2015. I had so many fights with my parents because of my behavioral and lifestyle changes(always seeking around secretively) and in my eyes they were doing satan's work when they challenged me. I remember the shock I had when my mom asked me if I had joined a cult, because that was the thing they said would happen to us in the bible study classes.
This is a very good testimony, I’m glad you left I’m praying that my daughter will wake up soon from this nightmare and bring her back to old self again.
Any pointers on helping fiance get outa it. Their grandmother 👵 pressured them into it now I'm stuck but they swear to God heaven above up and down that's its not a cult. 🙃🥲🤔😳😳😳
Hey Laurie, thanks for this! 🙏🏾 I was just at the beginning stage of this indoctrination process but it didn't really work on me because I couldn't just accept certain premises without due question. 🤷🏽♀️ it just goes against the scientist in me 😂 Please keep doing what you're doing and raising awareness. I especially like how you're encouraging people to learn how to think critically for themselves. 😊
Hello :) To introduce myself shortly I´m 34 years old and also almost 7 years in Shincheonji. I´m also a very critical person that doesn´t believe easily, checking things thoroughly too, also believe in science and know pretty well about psychological mechanisms and also already complaint a lot about things that happened at church. However there is one big difference between me and the lecturer, that I still believe in God, Jesus, the bible, Man Hee Lee as the promised pastor and the existence of the prophecied 12 tribes. I have watched your video and have to admit that you´re presentation is really professional, factual and convicing. Also I can completely understand why you´ve chosen to take this way to leave in Shincheonji and believe that everything you´ve spoken about from your experiences unfortunately is the truth. Nethertheless I´m not confirm with your conclusions, as I´m obviously still a member of Shincheonji, being proud of it and feel very blessed that God allowed me to have this strong faith that also enabled me to overcome even harshest experiences I also already had in Shincheonji. What always helped me in my worest times especially as a newcomer was that I was always looking on God, his word of the bible and the promised pastor. To also present another perspective about what you´ve been speaking about I would like to take the chance and ask some questions here, every reader is free to think about them on his own. 1. There might be huge and also inacceptable misinterpretations of the doctrines of Shincheonji, even among highest leaders and also can imagine that their might be some irresponsible leaders in SCJ that misuse their authority what of course should never happen at all. But my question is have you ever heard about that the promised pastor commanded to do an abortion if the baby would be from a pagan or do you have any proofs that he would support such a kind of practise? 2. It was also mentioned that in some regions it was forbidden to have any interracial marriage. As I´ve also remember well the words of the promised pastor during this sermon in 2017 and also have heard about the backgrounds why he gave this kind of words during service and remember it different like it was pictured here, I would like to ask another question. Do you really think that the promised pastor gave these kind of words for racist reasons or might it be also possible that he had some other good intentions with it like the goal to prevent bigger disharmonies in a relationship and protect the saints from the huge disappointment of an unlucky marriage and possible divorce but never gave this as a law? 3. Regarding that you´ve also attended the SCJ church for 7 years and said that you truely believed in the teachings I can still understand well ur reasons to leave Shincheonji. However looking at the immense increasing of SCJ congregation-members despite harshest and cruelest persecution and deffamation from many sides or just by looking at an over 90 year old man that still has such a strength in his voice and unstoppable will to fulfill God´s kingdom here on earth, no matter what the opponents did and accused him for, and never thought about just having some holiday or take a rest for couple of days what is hardly explainable rationally, I would also like to ask some more last questions. How do you explain yourself all of this? Looking at the entire work of Shincheonji and the promised pastor, is it really worth to throw away all of this you´ve once firmly believed in for the reason of human mistakes or seemingly contradictions in the teachings? And even if this might be a hypothetical question for you - Will you believe and what will you do if the 1st resurrection really takes place soon within your lifetime? Warm greetings from my heart to everyone, God´s blessing and hope God will guide you all the right way.
Thanks for the comment. You fundamentally misunderstand the reasons why I left. Your questions are not pertaining to the epistemological reasons why I left but rather to the unethical things that I experienced. SCJ's beliefs are fundamentally unjustified regardless of the unethical things that happen within SCJ or the mistakes that are made by SCJ's leaders. However, I will still answer your questions. 1. Regarding abortion, I doubt that Man Hee Lee would support abortion and I don't think he is aware that these things happened in the regions I worked in. Regardless of this, it still happened without any repercussions and are currently still happening (based on a testimony of a leader who recently left). 2. Regarding interracial marriage, I do think that Man Hee Lee's motives were based on the faithwalk of people. However, I think his reasons are based on an over generalization of the potential consequences of interracial marriage. This unnecessarily results in the division of people based on race and the restriction of their freedom. Therefore, I reject his moral justification. This is why I think it produces racist behavior (dividing people based on race without moral justification). Your statements about interracial relationships producing disharmony, unlucky marriage and divorce is just silly. There are various potential causes for such things within a marriage but they are psychological and not based on the color of someone's skin. I would admit that culture can play a role in a relationship but culture is not neccesarily connected to race. I embrace a very different culture to most white Afrikaans people in South Africa. When it comes to romance, I think the compatibility of people's beliefs, values, goals and personality is much more important than their race or the culture they grew up with. 3. It is important to note that many of the things SCJ labels as persecution and defamation is actually just criticism. They just conflate language for their own benefit. However, I do acknowledge that coercive conversion education is unethical and should be considered to be persecution. You say that the zeal and growth of SCJ cannot be explained rationally. This is just silly. When people are sincerely convinced of something, label those outside of their organization as deceived, evil and persecutors; have an effective recruitment method, obey their leaders without question and have sufficient motivation or hope, we would expect their organization to keep growing regardless of the circumstances. This is perfectly rational. Your statement regarding connecting the growth of SCJ with truth is a logical fallacy (appeal to popularity fallacy). The amount of people who believe something doesn't tell us anything about whether it is true or not. I left SCJ because I realized that my beliefs were not based on good evidence but rather based on logical fallacies. It is not worth living my life according to beliefs that are false or unjustified. It was definitely worth it leaving SCJ. I left because I realized that all the the major arguments for God's existence is fallacious and the bible is a book of myths and legend. SCJ cannot demonstrate supernatural existence nor do they have a reliable method to verify supernatural causation. Regarding your question about the first resurrection. If someone could demonstrate supernatural existence to me as well as a causal relationship between the God of SCJ and the event of the first resurrection then of course I would believe in it's existence. I really care about what is true and wouldn't reject it based on feelings or bad experiences. However, I would probably not worship the God of SCJ. The God of SCJ / Bible is a moral monster that allowed for genocide and slavery in the Old Testament, and punishes people infinitely for finite sins in the New Testament. Furthermore, he thinks the death of an innocent person for the sins of other guilty people (scapegoating) is needed to forgive people. This is disgusting. Moreover, we have good evidence to believe that Noah's flood didn't happen. We have no good evidence that the exodus out of Egypt as stated in the Bible ever happened. We don't know who wrote the gospels or many other books in the new testament. We don't have the original manuscripts and the supposed God of the bible expects us to believe in miracles based on hearsay. This is just ridiculous to believe. If this God exists then he is incompetent. There are many other reasons to reject the Bible and SCJ. However, SCJ people generally aren't willing to listen to criticism of their God or the book they believe in. Perhaps you can present a case for supernatural existence and causation. Unless you can do this, I find it difficult to take your organization seriously given that SCJ claims that they will heal and rule all nations. That will be difficult to do if you cannot formulate sound or cogent arguments for your beliefs. I have had many people tell me that they are critical thinkers and embrace science but through discussions with them it becomes obvious that they have almost no understanding of science and critical thinking. If you don't even understand basic logical fallacies, then with all due respect, you don't know how to think critically.
Thanks a lot for your response. I´m seriously impressed about your fast and eloquent answer. You´re definetely a very skilled person, blessed with a lot of capacities from a God, you´re not even believing in. Don´t worry, I completely understood your points that you haven´t left SCJ for moral reasons, but also mentioned that everyone shall free to meditate about my words on his own. 1. As I believe firmly in God´s kingdom and the sea of glass like crystal I´m convinced that all those grievances will be corrected by time. Regarding that we could say God´s kingdom in all its beautiness so far is just fulfilled 3,9% but already can see many improvements within just couple of years, this gives me great hope and confidence for a wonderful future. 2. Yeah I see your point and think especially in South Africa this certainly is a more contraversial topic and should be handled very sensitively. The problem is that as the promised pastor it also just one human being, he´s not able to solve all the problems in this world and even within Shincheonji instantly. However what I can definetely say is that I know noone else like him having so much passion, eagerness and a loving heart for people and would love to embrace all mankind, even his worest opponents. Such a heart is absolutely unique for me. 3. Because so far you didn´t give any explanation how it is possible that a 90 year old man is nonstop working for God´s kingdom since more than 50 years (half a century) without having any break-time, everyone who´s interested in I could also give another 99 points or more why he´s the most wonderful shepherd that has ever lived here on this earth. About the other point I think we can at least say that for many saints it would be much easier to just give up their faith but still keep to it strongly. And not everyone is just feared of hell but also sees the great hope and promise that is given to us and also appreciates to be part of God´s family. From a scientific perspective you´re certainly right. Like it also was said from someone else, here it also comes to faith and it´s written that blessed are those that believe even if they can´t see yet. Also regarding the last point I can completely feel with you and also already had my personal harsh struggles with accepting the way how God is and how he´s working. It was really a hard fight. However in the end I´ve realized that even from my perspective that might be lower than God´s perspective it just doesn´t make any sense to criticize or even judge the one that has created everyone of us. Eventually I realized that indeed it was my own huge rock of arrogance God needed to cut. Today I wouldn´t say that I needed to change my entire personality and completely reject myself but yes what I did is to bow down before God and can say I got reborn as a new creation that is striving for to get more closer to the image of God. For my own testimony I can say that I´m honestly thankful from deepest of my heart that even all the bad things that also happened to me in SCJ, also saw a lot of inrigteousness here and also still have dozens of questions noone could answer me so far, I was allowed to come here and be part of God´s greatest work of healing this world and will be able to live eternally in a world of peace and endless happiness.
@@marcelfrei6110 Regarding your assertion about my capabilities being from a God that I don't even believe in, you will need to provide evidence for this since it seems like you like to make bold assertions without evidence. As far as I can know, my intellectual abilities and knowledge comes from my biology and environment (this is observable and known in biology and psychology). The assertion that you made is untestable and therefore irrational. You say you completely understood that I didn't leave for moral reasons yet that's what you stated in the message that seemed to be addressed to me. That's a strawman fallacy. If you send me a message please primarily address me and my positions since this is what is generally expected in rational discourse. Your beliefs are fundamentally based on a book that is immoral. I don't see how much progress you can make regardless of time unless you start rejecting parts of your book and cherry pick verses like many other religious people do. While Man Hee Lee is just one human being, you also believe in God and millions of angels. Why do they do nothing about any of these things or the problems in the world? They don't seem to manifest in reality in a detectable way which makes them indiscernible from things that don't exist (are imaginary). You say that Man Hee Lee is unique to you, that's great for you, but I care more about what is true or justified than what seems nice to me or others. When you speak about the idea of "loving" it is important to remember that SCJ and the Bible's concept of love is based on obedience to God. This is considered to be more important than even such a thing as human well being. The problem with this concept of love is that it allows for harmful behavior like genocide, slavery, manipulation and indoctrination as long as people believe it's commanded by God. Man Hee Lee wants to convert the whole world to accept his teachings that he claims is from God. But you guys cannot demonstrate the truthfulness of your claims. Look in your above message, you even appealed to faith since you don't have good reason and evidence for your beliefs. Faith is not a reliable pathway to truth since it could justify belief in any claim. Faith is gullibility. Your epistemology is fundamentally unjustified. Saying that Man Hee Lee has been working 50 years nonstop without rest is just factually incorrect or perhaps you exaggerated a bit. While I would admit that he works very hard, he definitely also rests like most normal people. He rested during his 17th and 29th trips overseas. I was there. Why do I need to give an explanation for why he does this work? You believe it is supernatural so the burden of proof lies upon you. I acknowledge that he is zealous and works very hard for his goals, but I don't see any evidence that there is a causal relationship between the supernatural and the work he is doing. Your appeals to emotion and personal experience is subjective anecdotal evidence that cannot justify belief in any supernatural claims for the rest of us who try to be rational. You keep asserting things but provide no evidence, nor did you answer my request to present an argument for supernatural existence and causation. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
@@SCJSkeptic Hello again :) I´m still pretty astonished about your zeal to maintain your youtube-channel, as well that you´re able to give the right psychological or other scientific expression for every stylistic devices. That´s really remarkable. Indeed it´s hard to say that I do cherry-picking as I´m a vegetarian since my age of 11, so I really dislike the point of sacrificing animals in the old testament but same time happy to live in the time of the new testament. Nethertheless I accept and believe in the bible as the entire and holy scripture given from God. Although I´m also a person that likes to discuss with others it doesn´t seem to me very constructive as you command scientific proofs or anything else to falsify the given statements however religion doesn´t have the claim to give scientific proofs. For me personally it´s enough to see that except Shincheonji there is no other church known to me that is created in 12 tribes, that is harvesting and sealing 144.000 and noone else could ever answer on all my questions I had before Shincheonji and the entire picture itself (although it´s still very lacking) makes totally sense to me. As you certainly can understand it´ll hard for us to make a time travel together to see if there was really the great flood or if Jesus did really all those miracles and resurrected from the death. However I believe in the fulfilled realitiy of the prophecies of the new testament and also believe in the 1st resurrection to happen soon within this decade. Till then I would kindly ask you to have some more patience but as I´m quite sure this speaks about a date during our both lifetimes, I´m looking forward to continue our discussion latest in 2030.
@@marcelfrei6110 The accuracy of a scripture is not extraordinary if all of its accurate points can be explained by simple observation or selective interpretation. If the value of a scripture is dependent on its accuracy, it becomes meaningless when we find numerous errors within it. Furthermore, even if a scripture was actually inerrant, this would not necessarily prove the existence or the omniscience and reliability of God. It is possible for people who are not omniscient to write books that are without error. The common flaws in people’s reasoning regarding scriptural inerrancy is that they assume it to be inerrant without discerning it for themselves first (fallacy of begging the question) or they assume that because parts of it are accurate that the whole thing is accurate (fallacy of composition). When we assume inerrancy without discerning for ourselves first, we will struggle to identify and acknowledge any errors but rather interpret the scripture in such a way that confirms our belief in its inerrancy. If we assume scriptural inerrancy then scriptures from different religions can be considered to be inerrant even if they contain incompatible claims. Occasional accuracy does not necessarily indicate the overall accuracy of a scripture. In most fictional books and erroneous academic papers, we still find some accurate points. If we assume the overall accuracy of a scripture because of its occasional accuracy then scriptures from different religions can be considered to be accurate even if they contain incompatible claims. If we claim a scripture is inerrant, then we are also claiming that our interpretation of the scripture is inerrant. If we claim that our interpretation of the scripture is inerrant, then we are also claiming that we ourselves (those who interpret) are inerrant. Otherwise, there is no way to determine whether a scripture is actually inerrant or not. Many scriptures are written in vague ancient languages and there are constant disagreements regarding what the true meaning is. Some people interpret the scriptures more literally and some people interpret it more figuratively (specifically once they learn that the literal interpretation is factually incorrect). Many of the groups with different interpretations regularly say that the other groups are deceived. The bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) and that believers should be perfectly united (John 17:20-23, 1 Corinthians 1:10). However, the bible has produced more confusion and division than almost any book ever written. Science investigates the natural (physical) while religion deals with the supernatural (spiritual). Therefore, the two can be compatible under certain circumstances. Accepting a scientific worldview doesn’t necessarily require us to give up religion. However, problems can arise when religion makes claims about the natural world that is incompatible with science or claims about the supernatural that contain logical contradictions. We should not merely seek for the supernatural since this can make us try to match reality with our expectations, rather we should try to seek for truth and the best possible understanding of reality regardless of whether anything supernatural exists or not. We cannot test supernatural existence with science since it focuses only on the natural world and doesn’t draw conclusions regarding the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Therefore, ideas regarding supernatural existence are philosophical and not scientific. When you say that religion doesn´t have the claim to give scientific proofs, it is important to note that the burden of proof lies upon the one making the claim regardless of whether the claim is pertaining to the natural or supernatural. While it is not expected of you to present scientific evidence for supernatural claims, you still need to present some other form of evidence to justify belief in your claims. Appealing to faith doesn't justify claims since it's useless in demonstrating what is true or likely to be true. What type of God would expect us to have faith instead of presenting evidence? This is absurd. Testing ideas with evidence allows us to build scientific arguments. A scientific argument is an evidence-based line of reasoning. It is a logical description of what we think and why we think it. The three basic components of scientific arguments are ideas (hypotheses or theories), expectations produced by those ideas (predictions) and actual observations relevant to those expectations (the evidence). If an idea produces expectations that are actually observed, then the idea is more likely to be accurate. If an idea produces expectations that are not observed, then scientists are less likely to accept the idea. Scientific arguments work the same way even when we are investigating the past. When investigating the past, we try to figure out what we would expect to observe in the present if a specific event had happened in the past. The idea of a global flood about 4500 years ago is falsifiable (www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html ). Interestingly, Man Hee Lee taught many years ago that it was a global flood, but in many of the overseas regions they now teach that it's a regional flood. Your statement about travelling back to see if the great flood happened makes it seem like you don't really understand how science works. Furthermore, I think there is good reason to be skeptical of the idea that Jesus resurrected (ruclips.net/video/GHJE7cetkB4/видео.html ). It's surprising what you can find with an open mind. It appears that you don't really have any sound or cogent arguments and evidence for your beliefs but expect people to wait until something mystical happens. That sounds to me like many other people from other religions. Blindly accepting claims and making decisions as if they were true in the hope that the god we believe in exists and will reward our efforts can result in harmful behavior that produces unnecessary suffering. To some of us, it’s not worth sacrificing the only life that we know we have for something that is not based on good evidence and reason. Rather, we focus on trying to live a good life and leave a positive legacy for others.
Hi 👋 I have been recruited for the Equipped course here in Cape Town. How do they typically respond to someone who has a child outside of wedlock when starting the course? I can already feel the pressure when things get hectic with my one year old and I ask to do the online class.
Hello 😎👋 They tend to not have issues with people who had children out of wedlock before SCJ. They do however have issues with people who get pregnant out of wedlock while in SCJ. When I was there, if you got pregnant out of wedlock, they either forced you to get married to the person or have an abortion. If it was with an outsider and the outsider was not deemed worthy to be recruited then you would have been told to either get an abortion or face expulsion.
@SCJSkeptic I'm still relatively new with the course, so I haven't seen or experienced much, but this is the 2nd time I have approached by a cult in CPT. I moved here last year, August. My work colleague referred me to the course, and when I asked her about everything I had read and seen, she dodged answering. She's just acting normally like it's nothing where a normal person would show interest or at least want to know what's being said.
@@SCJSkeptic I have not experienced this as a member :/ i am looking into things said online but honestly everything they’ve taught is very logical and makes a lot of sense. Breaking down the Bible and it seems accurate, no other teaching has made sense really other than this in terms of the scriptures….It’s just the “culture” I’m having a hard time with like some of the stuff they say you have to do like the speaking some things in Korean or just like the ignore your feelings and don’t tell people about the study until we say you can and stuff ???? I don’t know. I haven’t experienced any like abuse or anything like that… and actually they say never get an abortion bc God values life. So I don’t believe that whoever told you that is their doctrine? I can’t believe that
@@HeyTripleJ Note that something making sense has no bearing on whether it's true. This might be counter intuitive to some people, but it's one of the things we have learned throughout human history. We can't understand the world by simply thinking about it, we have to go out and investigate things in a systematic way. This is why science is based on systematic empiricism. It helps us to combat our natural tendency for wishful thinking and a confirmation bias. If you study some logic and epistemology it becomes rather obvious that there is no evidence for any of SCJ's supernatural claims. Note that they don't have official doctrine on abortion. I didn't try to imply that. Abortion is quite common in SCJ in various tribes even long after I left. SCJ is quite united on their major doctrines that are often taught in the sermons. However, they are also rather divided on topics like abortion, evolution, capital punishment and whether Noah's flood was global or regional.
Thanks for sharing your story. When I hear things like this, I often wonder to myself what it is or where the need comes from to "believe" in something? I am not posing this as some atheist view in any way. It always just confuses me as to why is it that one has to believe? I mean believing is such an absolute way of being and leaves little to no room for just experiencing things how they are. It's like everything needs to be put through a lens or be interpreted first to be experienced when if one really looks at it, life itself does not operate like this at all. I am not saying that if one is a believer that they are wrong, I am just saying it is a handicap of sorts because as soon as you believe in something, you have laid down a threshold that will only serve as a comforter and never allow for a real journey to find one's truth. Not sure if my ramblings made sense, but thanks again for your story.
Thanks for your comment. Struggling to make sense of our existence is a completely natural thing that we go through in life. When we suffer, we often wonder if our lives have value, and if so, where does this value come from? We often struggle to have clarity on how we can live our lives with a sense of purpose where we feel that we matter and that we are making a difference in the world. The world can appear to be a very scary and confusing place. It can be very difficult to learn to deal with the harshness and uncertainty that comes from trying to see reality as it actually is. We tend to assume that everything happens for a reason (for an intended purpose), that we are part of some bigger plan, and that the universe has been designed by some higher power with an intended purpose (arise from our hypersensitivity towards detecting patterns and agency). However, what we discovered through science (cosmology, biology, and psychology) seem to suggest otherwise. As far as we know, the universe has no intended purpose. Living things evolved a sense of purpose that aids their survival and reproduction (natural and unguided process). A sense of purpose (being goal driven) can be found within both unconscious and conscious living things. Purpose became more refined as some living things evolved consciousness (from mechanistic detection, learning and memory to complex nervous systems). For humans, purpose has become increasingly complex through cultural evolution. Our sense of purpose is not dependent on the universe being designed for an intended purpose nor is it dependent on our immortality. Therefore, while there is no purpose of life, we can create purpose in life. People can and do care about each other, even if the universe doesn’t. While a scientific worldview is not as comforting as the ancient stories we have been telling ourselves about a universe that is designed with an intended purpose, it is also not nihilistic as many expect it to be. The scientific view of an unguided universe can still be inspiring and foundational to building a better society. Note that I find the concept of each person having their "own truth" to be flawed and fundamentally divisive. It's called subjectivism in epistemology.
My English is also not very good :) But I will try to explain, what I find problematic. I was a SCJ member for a decade. At that time, the interpretation of the parables and the physical fulfillment of the Revelation in reality made sense to me. But then I noticed how they kept adapting and changing the doctrine. If you are in SCJ, try to figure out how the order of fulfillment was taught in the past and today, and if these contradictions can be reconciled. For example, they taught that there was the judgment in Rev 6 and "after this" (in Rev 7:1) 144,000 people would be sealed (12,000 from each tribe) who are supposed to reign as kings and priests, and that "after this" (after the sealing) the great tribulation would happen and the great white multitude would be created. The focus was placed on this sequence, according to the words "after this". Then, when Covid-19 came, it was taught that the great tribulation is taking place and this was supposedly evidence that the 144,000 have already been sealed. But at the time the great tribulation was declared, not every tribe had even 12,000 members. How can this be? To this day, almost 4 years later, they say, only God knows who the 144.000 are... And they changed their doctrine... There is a video of SCJ Skeptic about the issue of Rev 7. (I recommend you to watch it, he explains it much clearer, than I ever could :)) ruclips.net/video/qgNUJA3o5Co/видео.htmlfeature=shared There are many other things in the doctrine that have been changed. You can find much more in other videos on this channel and on RUclips or on Reddit. Interestingly, the chairman of SCJ was himself in at least 2 different religious groups before founding Shincheonji. And these groups had a very similar interpretation of scripture. Maybe it will help you to look at the chairman's biography? It seems he took these teachings, combined them and added some more things to it. And Man Hee Lee wrote several books. So, when you compare the content of the books to the current teaching, there are contradictions. But apart from these contradictions and changes in doctrine, it makes sense to look at whether the predictions have actually been fulfilled or whether they are not being read into the Bible through a hindsight bias. SCJ Skeptic has also made a video about this: ruclips.net/video/7PmdYPpkHTQ/видео.htmlfeature=shared There are also some problems with the "fulfilled reality". It seems, not all evidence, that SCJ uses, is correct. Another issue is, when I started the center class back then 10 years ago, it was taught that Rev had already been fulfilled up to chapter 18 and we are already at the beginning of the fulfillment of chapter 19. Nowadays it is taught that Rev has only been fulfilled up to chapter 17 and chapter 18 is still to come. How can the testified fulfillment change a few years later? They keep changing their doctrine.... While I was in SCJ, we were told to just believe and not research on the internet etc. So I didn't do that for years. I knew nothing about critical thinking, so it took me a long time to realize that the SCJ has a confirmation bias. I didn't know what an echo chamber was. Nor did I know that the tactics SCJ uses are problematic. I would like to encourage you to also engage in critical thinking in order to recognize some things in SCJ more clearly. Best wishes.
I stayed in scj for a year because I was afraid to lose my girlfriend who introduced me to the Bible study but hide from me that she was a member of scj, but at the end I couldn't take it anymore so I decided to leave and yes we broke up after that
Thank you for this video and having the courage to speak out against SCJ. What are the names of the books you have mentioned? I'm an avid reader, and would love to check them out.
Thanks for your support and encouragement. I am also an avid reader :) You are actually bringing up a good point with your comment. I will add references to resources in my videos from now on. www.criticalthinking.org/store/ rowman.com/ (other online store that sells their books) I would suggest to read them in this order: 1. The Miniature Guide to Critical Thinking Concepts & Tools 2. Thinker's Guide to the Human Mind: Thinking, Feeling, Wanting, and the Problem of Irrationality 3. The Thinker's Guide to Fallacies: The Art of Mental Trickery and Manipulation 4. The Thinker's Guide to Socratic Questioning 5. The Thinker's Guide to Ethical Reasoning 6. Fact over Fake: A Critical Thinker's Guide to Media Bias and Political Propaganda There are many other books as well but I would say that these contain the basics.
Hello, I came across your video from Reddit. Would there be a way to get in touch with you? I have been in SCJ for more than 5 years and am one of those who stay out of fear. I notice how much they have really changed the doctrine and constant gaslighting is done to cover it up. Jesus even said “you will know them by their fruits” and when you shine a light to the truth the upper workers scurry away like darkness as you have experienced. They have changed the doctrine in Rev 7 clearly as you say, then they are guilty of adding to the Word of Revelation and cannot enter heaven according to their own doctrine. Please if there would be a way to get in touch it would be most appreciated. If this is not possible then I understand and thank you for your video.
I’m so sorry things turned out like this 😭 but eventually you left because you started to believe in the words of gentille instead of the word of God. Anyone believes in God’s word and his promise, and understand the will of God will never left scj. But those who won’t change their mind and wants to do whatever they want instead do the will of God will leave. I sincerely hope people can know scj through the word of God, not someone who lost his way.🙏 All glory to God. And I pray for your soul.🙏
You are merely labelling things without providing actual evidence. That is rather irrational. The concept of "chosen people vs gentiles" presupposes the existence of a theistic God. Demonstrate it first before assuming it. You need to educate yourself and escape from your echo chamber. You are continuously assuming that you possess the absolute truth. This is intellectual arrogance. You refer to people who won't change their mind. Who said that I won't change my mind? I'm not a cynic but rather I'm a skeptic. You are assuming that your way of living is the only right way to live. That is monumentally self-righteous. Instead of praying for me, rather construct a sound or cogent argument based on evidence. What evidence do you have for the existence of the God you believe in?
@@SCJSkeptic At this point, I think that both of you have a perspective, opposing perspectives that is. I think that WE should ALL respect each other's viewpoints. What SS is saying isn't the truth, its his opinion, and what Anna Liu is saying isn't truth, its her opinion. Let each other be mannn
@@mishomphela3814 I dont think its rational to respect a viewpoint that is based on unsupported assertions, assumptions and logical fallacies. The burden of proof lies upon the person making the claim. I simply demanded evidence for claims. Your comment makes little sense since I didn't try to state any facts or make any claims.
This article gives great advice: The Definitive Guide to Helping People Trapped in a Cult | Psychology Today www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202104/the-definitive-guide-helping-people-trapped-in-cult
I feel like people don’t understand the true essence of God or my God (aka the God of the living) that’s how it turns into things like this, God is patient, kind, loving, etc. his burden is light and he is a source of unconditional love. God says when he will return no one will know, nor does it even matter which is what a lot of people dont realize now. They are so worried about crossing over, the fulfillment, whatever. That they forget what we are supposed to do, love God with our whole being and love others the same. God will come when he does and hopefully when he does he sees you (anyone reading this) putting him first and loving others and staying close to your Bible so you can constantly be reminded how you should love others (and what not to do) I loved SCJ because they gave me a love for the Bible. Luckily I didn’t get too involved before finding out this knowledge when they found me I didn’t know what I was getting involved in. I had no names and because they were so loving I didn’t ask questions. Glad God delivered me from that. I’m sorry you had to go through that, truly this made me cry. I know God is real mostly because I used to be a psychic medium. I started communicating with “spirits as a young child” and when I did my readings I would always tell people to not give me any information but a name. The experiences I had were out of this world. The “” that I felt in real time were absolutely insane. Stuff science can not explain. The knowledge I got from thin air was weird. Supernatural is the only way to explain it. When I found Jesus all of these spirits I seen my whole life (walking around and communicating with me all different ppls family members) LEFT I never seen them again. So if I was schizo (which I could accept) doesn’t explain how I was right and how they all left. In a day after me being tormented for years. Idk. Gods plan is for us all to be saved…so we’re gonna be here a while. 😫🥱🥱🥱
11 years wayback when I heard this group from my aunties who up to this present (2024 ) are actively member plus two of my cousins from USA. Fast forward 2019 before pandemic in due respect to my auntie I attended the zoom class but I didnt finish because I knew fr the very beginning, I just want to address my doubts. Now I'm having conflict with my two loving aunties because this SCJ changed them into BIG LIARS
Thank you for sharing your story. I have a close friend who has been in SCJ for a similar length on time who I am always hoping will leave one day. Can I ask, how were you supported financially whilst you were in SCJ? It would be really helpful if you have any advice on how to gently encourage members to question their beliefs- or maybe it's not possible and people have to find their own paths to leave?
Hello Bella 😄👋 I was supported by the church and by my mother who was also in SCJ. I never really struggled financially but I know that many other full time workers did struggle financially. Here is a nice article about changing minds (www.bakadesuyo.com/2019/12/change-someones-mind/). I think it's important to teach regarding how to think and not merely what to think. This is how we can empower people to regain their intellectual autonomy. I try to use common values as a basis of conversations. SCJ values their group identity over facts. This makes it difficult to converse with them.
@@SCJSkeptic haha😅 ... I mean I believe that God is truth.. no matter what the different interpretations are .... currently receiving the SCJ bible lessons.. being confused and thinking of leaving... I will admit that I'm not that intelligent and do not trust my own understanding. However, I will keep my faith because He is faithful.
Hey Laurie, I was wondering, have you ever thought that maybe although some people may be faulty it may just be that eventually they would be revealed as being the Mt 25 goats ? Jesus taught not to stumble on account of people.
Yes I believed that up until I stopped believing in the bible. That's ultimately why I left. I am convinced that Jesus existed as a historical figure and was crucified. However, I am not convinced that he was a messiah or that he resurrected. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There are only Christian writings that claim that Jesus was divine. The other writings like Josephus and Tacitus merely state what other people believed at that time. It's strange how one of the supposed most important events in history have no independent confirmation.
But that's where FAITH comes in... if there was clear cut evidence don't you think the whole world would believe? And this would no longer be according to the Bible as the prophecies are meant to be fulfilled
@@riaalmeida6228 The problem with your reasoning is that appealing to faith could justify belief in imaginary things and contradictory things. It could also justify belief in different gods. This method of thinking has divided people a lot throughout history and caused a lot of harm. Faith is not a reliable pathway to truth. I care about whether my beliefs correspond with reality or not. We should ideally question our fundamental assumptions so that we don't create our own subjective truth and reality. I fundamentally disagree with your statement about if there was clear cut evidence that the whole world would believe. This is obviously not the case. For example, we have clear evidence for the big bang (cosmic microwave background radiation and expansion) and evolution (anatomy, molecular biology, biogeography and fossils) yet many people reject it because it opposes their religious presuppositions. There are even many people who believe the earth is 6000 years old despite clear evidence (radiometric dating of zircon crystals).
If you are Christian, you needed to check into the Bible and what the Bible says, because Bible is our standard, the truth is that the Question and Answer are from the Bible. If you say shincheonji is untruth show as according to the Bible, what the Bible says? . Don't explaining your feelings or experiences but explain what Bible says and what shincheonji wrongly according to the Bible. The Bible tells us to be careful and to check into the Bible every word we hear so as we can not deceived, Love your spirit don't let it die by untruth words or by persecution from the deceiver
Did you watch the video to the end? I explicitly stated that I am not religious anymore in the video. Reality is my standard of truth not some ancient book. How did you verify factually that historical events like Noah's flood, the Israelite exodus and Jesus' resurrection actually happened? I made a video on their Revelation 7 doctrine. Perhaps you can respond to that. I don't have a spirit and neither do you. Brain laterization in split brain patients provide good evidence that we don't have a spirit. Belief in a spirit is an ancient myth that uneducated people like yourself still believe.
There are also Christian arguments against SCJ. Look into false prophets and their behavior (2 Peter 2, Matthew 7:15-23) Not allowed to use deception to bring others to God (Roman's 3:7-8, Matthew 5:37, 2nd Corinthians 4:2). And when a prophet / messenger claims to speak on behalf of God and when his word doesn't come to fruition, not to fear him (Dt 18:20-22). Please refer to the failed and updated prophecy of Revelation 7; the Great Tribulation began before the sealing of the 12 Tribes, so your group had to update the interpretation.
I disagree. Im in shincheonji. If you fail to cater to someone’s emotional needs you are not following your duty properly. I may be new and you could say “stuck” in shincheonji but the experience is giving me a lot of knowledge
Please check in the description of the video. I added it there 😎👍 While the books can be quite expensive and long, a very good alternative is the following website: thinkingispower.com/foundations-in-critical-thinking/
Have you watched this interview of Kim Nam Hee and what happened while she was married to LMH, her experiences and even proof of letters and recordings...I just want to know if SCJ ever mentioned her to you while you were there and what was said. ruclips.net/video/iPZ-rYZRePc/видео.html It's shocking.
Hello there 😀 I have watched it yes. In SCJ we were told that she became arrogant and greedy, stole money from the church, created her own sect, taught false doctrine and became a persecutor. We were never given her side of the story. When people asked questions about further details there would be simple deflection by changing the topic to how much Man Hee Lee is suffering because the one he loves has betrayed. We were told to rather focus on understanding his heart than asking unnecessary questions.
@@SCJSkeptic that's messed up really! There's no way she could have made up all of those recordings, we can hear it's LMH voice himself. There's just too much going on.
@@anonymousone6922 That's a very interesting question. Unfortunately, I honestly don't know. I have a video where Mr. Oh speaks about the 7 messengers but I have never heard him speaking about Man Hee Lee.
@@SCJSkeptic that's strange, I mean he should be defending himself since he can see LMH still continues with his testimony, and according to what we learn this guy is responsible for the biggest destruction of many things.
If I understand correctly, you no longer believe in God but in science. What gives me hope in God is the magnitude we observe in nature: from the weakest to the strongest winds, the smallest to the largest earthquakes, the tiniest to the biggest leaves, and the smallest to the largest stars in the universe. One thing can vary greatly in scale. I believe that conscience is included in that "magnitude." I believe there must be someone with a more intelligent, more loving, and wiser conscience than all of humanity combined, beyond our comprehension
I am no longer convinced of supernatural existence or causation since there are no sound or cogent arguments for it nor are there any reliable methods to confirm it. Science provides us with information that is consistently more reliable and useful than any other method that has ever been developed. I addressed some topics regarding science and religion in a few recent reaction videos I made. It's titled "Shincheonji Reactions (Science and Religion Part 1 / 2 / 3)"
Jude 1:10 mentions slander. How am I slandering anyone? Slander is based on factually incorrect information. Name one thing I said that is factually incorrect. Furthermore, Jude 1:10 mentions irrationality. I think SCJ supernatural claims are irrational since all their arguments are fallacious. Present one sound or cogent argument for any of their supernatural claims.
Haha great question! I think a lot of us learned new mannerisms from Korean leaders in our regions. It's a common mannerism amongst Korean people who speak english.
@@WorshipWithAdhi Check out this link about the concept of New John. www.reddit.com/r/Shincheonji/comments/u26uvs/how_scj_explains_the_concept_of_the_new_john/?
Matthew 7:6 is merely a label and doesn't mean much within itself. It could essentially be used as a label towards anyone that doesn't agree with your interpretation of the bible. It gets us nowhere.
@@SCJSkeptic please be comfortable to your distiny . I know when you relax and remember your first love , you cry . For I that you cannot be deceived in the Bible of the knowledge you got from SCJ . Anyway nothing good can comeout a person who loves darkness and more so those who tested light / life and truth . ( It would have been better not to know the way of truth than to know and leave it ) . Let me hope you know how many spirits are in you now
@@SCJSkeptic It is so heartbreaking that you were not sealed much and that the little spirit of God (Jn 6:63) left and you have started blaspheming the hoy spirit . You said Jn 10:35 that God fulfills but now you are saying that He failed . So , are you blaming SCJ or GOD ? Anyway check all those siding with you they all betrayed but since Jesus is the one who Harvests by sending Angels (Mt 24:31 , Rv 14:14-16) , These Angels have to remove those who did not qualify to be in the Kingdom TTT NHNE N Jerusalm . So , you and them you are removed outside verysoon you will ganish .
@@mcjam-ilu1043 Haha you are just making stuff up. When have I ever cried about my "first love"? You keep labelling me as deceived but have not demonstrated specifically what falsehood I am expressing. You also assume that you possess "the truth" without providing any justification or supporting evidence. As far as I know, I don't have any spirits inside of me. Brain laterization in split brain patients gives us good reason to reject the idea of people having spirits. Furthermore, we don't have any evidence whatsoever that any spirits even exist. Can you perhaps provide actual evidence for this? (not anecdotes or assertions)
@@mcjam-ilu1043 If you want me to repent then change my mind through providing a sound or cogent counter argument. I am not blaming God. This makes little sense to me since I am not even convinced that such a thing as a god exists. Can you demonstrate supernatural existence and causation? What evidence do you have that actual angels are harvesting people to SCJ and removing those who do not qualify? People leave religious organizations when they change their minds. There is no supernatural agents needed for such a transition. Any religious organization can claim that the angels removed those who didn't meet the qualification of that organization when they decide to leave the organization. It's an unfalsifiable proposition. It's like playing tennis without the net. I think you should ask God to help you with your grammar. Your language usage is horrific haha.
What evidence do you have that such a thing as "spirit" exists? When I use the word "religion", I am referring to belief in and/or worship of the supernatural. I don't make the distinction you make since it seems like special pleading to me.
@@SCJSkeptic that’s it because you have to encounter personally, relationship between you and God, Hebrew 11:6.. believing and have faith in him to wxperience him.. just like any other believer, me also and apostle Paul.. when he encounter Jesus
@@greceramos6069So I have to believe first and then I will see what you see? That's a pathway to self-deception based on a confirmation bias. I prefer empirical evidence gathered in a systematic way instead of anecdotal evidence. I think your statement shows that you are gullible and overconfident in your personal experiences. thinkingispower.com/four-ways-your-personal-experiences-can-lead-you-astray/
Yeah I have pictures and videos of me teaching the SCJ center course. I also have church pictures of me with the church in Namibia. Note that my affiliation with SCJ has no bearing on the truthfulness or validity of my arguments. If someone asserts that then they are committing an ad hominem fallacy.
By their fruit you will recognise them. :) Jesus: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Mt 7,15 Paul: "Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God." 2.Co 4,2 "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." 2.Co 11,14 Peter: "And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2.Pt 2,3
Hello there 😁 Can you specify what you mean? Many people use these verses to label other people as deceived. The verses by itself bears little explanatory power since it mostly contain labels.
@@SCJSkeptic In Mt 7,15-23 Jesus argues that there will be false prophets who appear Christian or claim they are Christians but don't do Christian deeds. Like advocating abortions 3:10 yeah it's a heavily debated topic among churches... but usually churches rather forbid abortions instead of enforcing them. In Mt 7,16 "You will recognize them by their fruits..." Christian communities or Churches are usually like second families where people trust each other and strengthen each other, especially during bad times. But Shincheonji calls it a negative factor if A) you are pregnant or B) you have plans to move location or C) you are about to marry. In 2.Co 4,2 Paul tells the Corinthians to preach the gospel in truth and don't use dirty tricks. Here in Germany (some?) Shincheonji members don't approach directly, but they rather use false pretences to trick people into their Bible courses with things like Christian flirting apps or university projects. (Source: watch?v=F0WxOE3bUh8 ) In 2.Co 11,14 Paul says that the evil is not scared of masking as the good guys. In 2.Pt 2,3 Peter says that they (false teachers) only want your best: your money. ------------------------- Bro, yesterday I didn't even know they deny the trinity, so here is another one: """Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.""" 1.John 2,22-23 There might be some differences between Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, Lutheran, Methodists, Anglicanisms or Pentecostalism. But this is something where everyone comes together. Even atheist theologians agree that the Bible teaches that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit is god. Well, maybe except one organisation: Jehovah's Witnesses ^.^ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Hello 😎 I am no longer a Christian. As stated in my video, I left SCJ as a result of my deconversion. I am now an agnostic atheist. www.learnreligions.com/agnostic-atheist-dictionary-definition-247755
The Kingdom of God is coming soon .With or without us Gods will be accomplished. The word of God just cleanses us from sin lets not act according to our own undestanding.
People have been saying that the kingdom of god is "coming soon" for about 2000 years now. We are still waiting for this unsupported assertion to be demonstrated with evidence. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You are merely engaging in wishful thinking. I am not convinced that the will of any gods have ever been fulfilled. I addressed this in a video I made (ruclips.net/video/ewBWBzArn7w/видео.html). Can you prove anything that you said with evidence? Can you prove that the kingdom of god exists and is coming soon? Can you prove that your god exists and that his will has ever been accomplished? Can you prove that the bible is the word of your god? Can you prove that there is such a thing as sin that we need to be cleansed from? Can you prove that you are acting according to the understanding of your god instead of merely according to your own understanding of a book?
@@SCJSkeptic life of faith is not a forced life you can decide what you want but with or with out the work of God will be accomplished But you said is not what is taught in Schinjeonji. Coz promotion of world peace is one of the goals of shinjeonji. God bless you.
@@nabatanzijosephine2205 I would say there is an element of coercion behind it because of the threat of eternal punishment for not being convinced of the claims. You keep asserting that your god's work will be accomplished but provide no evidence for the claim. Furthermore, you didnt answer any of my questions. SCJ's concept of world peace is based on converting people to SCJ's teachings using unethical tactics. They have hidden motives that they dont reveal to people who participate in their events. I worked for HWPL and understand it very well. Beyond merely uniting people physically, SCJ believes that all people must belong to SCJ, believe in their doctrine and submit to their rules in order to stop the spiritual war between god and satan. I support world peace but I am against HWPL's work because it causes division and results in a delusional worldview. Its a good example of egocentrism and sociocentrism. All the supernatural claims of SCJ are unjustified and fallacious. This is why I demand evidence but SCJ people keep avoiding my questions.
@@SCJSkeptic Even people at time of Noarh didnt belive that just a mere ark could be the only way yo survive No one is forced to join and freely you left so just have peace brother .but dont speak ill about it you need evidence the word is evidence its not physical but spiritual evidence just enjoy your life dear but dont spread hate. We are one.
@@nabatanzijosephine2205 do you have any evidence that Noah's ark even existed? I believe in things based on evidence not mere spiritual stories. People are manipulated to join SCJ and indoctrinated in the center course. There is no informed consent and the students are not given sufficient information to discern for themselves. The bible contains claims not evidence. We need empirical evidence to confirm the claims in the bible. If someone makes claims from another religious text, would you not demand evidence for their claims? Would mere anecdotes be sufficient to convince you of extraordinary claims? You come across as someone that has never studied logic or epistemology but merely conformed to the cultures around you. I am spreading the love of truth and rationality because I actually care about what is true and I care about human well being. We are not one. You live in your own fairytale world and support irrationality and unethical tactics. It's insulting to human intelligence and dignity.
Laurie, why did it take you 7 years in order for you to realise that it is a cult? I’m sure some of your students are still there and believing in the doctrine of Shincheonji. Why are you so bitter, what did you disagree with? I feel like you were wronged by someone in the church, not because of the doctrine. Your arguments are valid. But why are you spending so much time uploading content. Are you healing? I’m so curious.
It took me a long time to get an education in logic, epistemology, ethics, metaphysics, psychology, cosmology and biology. I left primarily because all of SCJ's supernatural claims are based on fallacious arguments and not supported by evidence. Furthermore, I realized that their tactics are unethical and causes serious harm to people. I sincerely believed in their doctrine in the past but realized that I was mistaken. Many of my former students are still there yes. I am open to talking to any of them if they want to. I made this video to explain my issues with SCJ's prophecy doctrine (ruclips.net/video/ewBWBzArn7w/видео.html). I was wronged by people in SCJ but I don't consider this to be a good reason by itself to leave SCJ. We are wronged by people in life regardless of the truthfulness of their claims or the groups they belong to. I am curious where your feeling comes from that I didn't leave for epistemic reasons? I haven undertaken an ethical obligation upon myself to spread awareness about SCJ. I think this form of criticism is essential to empower people to discern for themselves since I don't think SCJ gives people sufficient information to discern for themselves when they are being recruited. I wasn't really hurt that much by SCJ as many other people have been. However, I find great purpose on educating people to think more critically about SCJ. I think that the work I do is necessary for creating a better world.
He is not bitter. He just has enough conscious to warn other people from this destructive cult. He is serving the people and not done narcessistic guru anymore.
It also took me 8+ years to leave. This religion took nearly a decade of our lives with lies. I specifically remember catching someone filming women in the bathroom in LA. I reported him to leadership. They did nothing but hid it to protect the reputation of the church
@@ameliabarbado9887 I was training to become a pastor before joining. The hardest thing for me to accept was when they taught that their founder would never die and live forever. So the moment they started sharing that he could and would eventually die was when I began doubting them. BTW this was 6-7 years into SCJ. I lost most of my 20s due to SCJ that I will never get back but fortunately life couldn’t be better for me now.
I'm a Korean scj member and I'd like to say it is unfortunate that you have started to grow your own skeptical reasoning based on multiple sources such as science, psychology, linguistics, etc all being mixed. Aside from the faith of scj, the general concept of believing in God-like Christianity requires people to have such an "imaginary" faith-based system. Of course, as you said, some have been proven by scientific methods(relics, DNA, etc) and many others haven't yet. But it doesn't mean it can be justified to deny the whole system of Christianity. I believe you've already solidified your own thought process on how to view and interpret your past scj experiences and things like a deity, biblical evidence, and historical and scientific accounts, so I don't want to argue with you in terms of the correctness of the Word. However, for me, it's heartbroken that there's a chance that you'll be nitpicking every bad thing solely coming from your personal feeling and thought, trying to justify your every argument with criticism of scj. Actually, it's not odd considering people like ex-Mormons or ex-Catholics also criticize their past beliefs and community to gain momentum.
Why is it unfortunate that I have embraced skepticism? You keep making assertions but provide no explanation or evidence for them. The supernatural claims of Christianity are either unjustified or factually incorrect. This makes it reasonable to tentatively reject it and remain unconvinced until sufficient evidence is provided. Perhaps you can try to demonstrate supernatural existence and causation. This shouldn't be too hard for someone who possesses "the truth". Why are you so afraid of criticism? It's essential for the pursuit of truth and understanding. How am I nitpicking? What unnecessary and unjustified criticism have I given about SCJ? Saying that my criticism comes from my own thoughts and feelings is a weird thing to say. No shit sherlock. All written or verbal communication comes from the thoughts and feelings of the person who is communicating. The question we should ask ourselves, are those thoughts and feelings rational or irrational?
I was raised Catholic but don't follow the belief anymore and still I can spend time with my Catholic friends and even have a debate about religion. Critical thinking should be embraced and not shut down by anyone
Your statement has basically zero explanatory power. How can any rational person change their mind based on what you said? Can you present good reasoning and evidence for the existence of this "kingdom of God" and explain what I misrepresented.
you leave from a lack of evidence of the existence of a god, thinking that science and logic is a better path. the basis of science is flawed, it cant tell you who created everything. in fact everything came from nothing as it would suggest in the big bang, well it was from hot gasses,etc. but how did those elements come about? then logic left the building. its good that you make your own choices and that you have done what you think is right. but science and religion work hand in hand, one without the other will never make sense.
I disagree with what you stated. Most of what you said is just plain wrong. You don't understand what science and logic is and how it works. Science is a process of acquiring knowledge of the natural world (scientific process), the body of knowledge acquired through that process (scientific knowledge), and the community of people who follow that process (scientific community). Science is different from other ways of acquiring knowledge because of the way it is done (the scientific method). Science is done systematically in a planned, controlled, organized and repeatable way. Science is fundamentally about testing scientific ideas against reality by comparing it to empirical evidence gathered from the natural world. Science is based on the foundation of logic and mathematics. Logic is the study of reasoning. Mathematics is the study of patterns and the relationships between numbers and shapes. Logic clarifies ideas and mathematics quantifies ideas. Science is the best way to acquire knowledge (note that since there are limitations to science, we also need to depend on other ways to acquire knowledge). The evidence that science is the best way to acquire knowledge is the effective results that it has produced (development and implementation of technology). Science investigates the natural (physical) while religion deals with the supernatural (spiritual). Therefore, the two can be compatible under certain circumstances. Accepting a scientific worldview doesn’t necessarily require us to give up religion. However, problems can arise when religion makes claims about the natural world that is incompatible with science or claims about the supernatural that contain logical contradictions. We should not merely seek for the supernatural since this can make us try to match reality with our expectations, rather we should try to seek for truth and the best possible understanding of reality regardless of whether anything supernatural exists or not. We cannot test supernatural existence with science since it focuses only on the natural world and doesn’t draw conclusions regarding the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Therefore, ideas regarding supernatural existence are philosophical and not scientific. We don’t have any examples of the supernatural manifesting in reality in a detectable way based on empirical evidence (experimentation or observation) gathered in a systematic way. All we have is anecdotal evidence (personal testimonies) and hearsay evidence (personal testimonies of others) about people’s supernatural experiences gathered in a non-systematic way. Science doesn't make unjustified assumptions about the cause of existence without evidence as religion tends to do. Science makes sense of the world without the need for religion to make stuff up. If there are things we don't know, then we can just say we don't know without having to make up supernatural stories. Throughout history we have seen how people have come up with supernatural explanations for mysterious events because of their ignorance and how those explanations were later replaced by natural explanations because of the knowledge we acquired through science. Because of our need for certainty, we like to come up with explanations for everything, identify or create patterns for everything and find it uncomfortable to admit that we have no good explanation for random or mysterious events. Making up supernatural explanations satisfies our need for certainty and gives us a sense of comfort. Some weather events were formerly regarded as being caused by the supernatural (gods giving blessings or curses) until we discovered that it is actually caused by natural forces of temperature and pressure. Some infectious diseases were formerly regarded as being caused by the supernatural (people interacting with the devil) until we discovered that it is actually caused by pathogens (bacteria, fungi, parasites, protozoa and viruses). Some mental illnesses were formerly regarded as being caused by the supernatural (demonic possession) until we discovered that it is actually caused by our genetics and biochemistry. Some accidents were formerly explained by providence (supernatural guidance) or karma (an energy or force that causes our future to necessarily be determined by our present and past behavior) but can now be explained by mathematics (statistics). Magnetism was formerly regarded as being caused by supernatural forces until we discovered that it’s actually caused by the motion of electric charge that results in attractive and repulsive forces between objects. The big bang is the rapid expansion of space from a singularity (parts of space that defy the laws of physics) about 13.8 billion years ago. We know very little about singularities, but we know that they exist in the core of black holes (this doesn’t mean that the universe began as a black hole). We don’t know what existed before the big bang, what caused the big bang, where the laws of physics come from or if our universe is the only universe that exists. If time itself began at the big bang, then it's meaningless to ask about what happened before the big bang (like asking what’s north of the north pole) or what caused the big bang (causality is dependent on the existence of time). Therefore, we don’t know whether the universe had a beginning or whether the universe is eternal. The closer we look to the time “zero”, the less certain we are about what actually happened, because our current description of the laws of physics do not yet apply to such extreme circumstances.
@@SCJSkeptic forgive me you miss understand intent, i merely wanted to show you one is no better then the other in the regard of possibly one of the greatest mysteries yet even though science explains such matters as you have stated then you would also agree that it just gives better insight of what has already been put in place whether by a god or no god. but Einstein would also stand with me on such a matter, one who is a scientist. yet my question remains and will always remain. though god may not be prove able in a scientific way, it cannot be dis proven either.
@@eddiegleimus6537 I simply responded to what you stated. Science and logic is a better path than religion because it can actually be used to understand reality and develop technology. Religion has almost no explanatory power. When there is a mystery religion just asserts that god did it. That's an appeal to ignorance fallacy. Religion is pretty much useless when it comes to epistemology. However, it does provide people with psychological benefits. You last statement of god not being able to be proven or disproven with science is correct. The difference is that religious people don't have a justification for why they believe a god exists. I simply say that I don't know. They are the ones being fallacious and intellectually arrogant. We also can't disprove the existence of fairies and unicorns with science. Does that mean we are justified in believing in their existence? Go watch my video on the burden of proof (SCJ Tactics - can you disprove it?). I explained this quite thoroughly. You don't seem to understand logical fallacies and how the burden of proof works.
@@SCJSkeptic and you still miss understand what im saying, i didn't assert god must be true im simply stating you are closed minded to the idea of a god even though the possibility may be there, science hasn't concluded everything, so what would science say 1000 years from now about this subject?it may aswell conclude there must be a god we don't know, and if so would you swallow your pride? im not judging just stating the little i know is about as much as you know, but i grow tired of a back and forth subject that gets us no where.
@@eddiegleimus6537 You keep saying stuff I disagree with so I am expressing my disagreeance. I am also stating implications of your reasoning. Im also not asserting that god doesnt exist so what's the point you are trying to make since you are not addressing my position nor are you making your position clear? I will believe in the existence of a god if it is demonstrated with evidence as any rational person should do. There would be no need for me to swallow my pride since I wouldnt have a problem with it nor are I hoping a god doesnt exist. What am I closed minded about? Im simply demanding evidence and so far you have presented zero evidence. But at the same time I dont even know what you believe. I assumed you believed in a god because of your language usage. Perhaps I was wrong, Im sorry. Do you believe in a god or not? Science doesnt investigate the supernatural so saying it might as well conclude the supernatural must exist is simply not how it works. That statement is wrong and shows your misunderstanding of how science works.
@Shincheonji Skeptic My question is why you even spending time on a things which you don't like it. On your prospective you are right but from our prospective we believe in the god of shincheonji, do not try to poison others, this is the exactly the same way Jewish leaders did 2000 years ago, and Jesus called them white washed tombs and unmarked graves. Out side so much beautiful, and attract peoples but from the inside nothing they knew about scriptures.
If there is anything I said that is factually incorrect (poison, deception) then point it out and demonstrate how it is false. I encourage criticism. SCJ people tend to label criticism as poison and persecution yet they are constantly criticizing people outside of the organization. Criticism is an essential part of the development of society. I already shared why I am doing this. It's out of my love for truth, science, human well being and critical thinking. It is my ethical obligation to criticize bad ideas. This is not exactly the same as what the Jewish leaders did. I am not religious and I don't persecute, I criticize. The Jewish leaders in the gospels were people who criticized Jesus from an outside biased perspective. They didn't understand the inner working of Jesus' movement. The Jewish leaders didn't understand science since they lived at a time when people were very ignorant of how the natural world works. Lastly, regarding your statement about me having my perspective and you having your perspective. We need to evaluate our claims to determine which one is better and more accurately describes and explains reality. This is why critical thinking is so important.
@@SCJSkeptic God of the Bible beyond than the science that human teaches. Science came to be because god created everything so humans could great life. It is not to judge god with it. Science can not find where god exist because human intelligence is so much lower than god's creations. His wisdom is beyond than Humans so even god is existence is not proof by humans. Even the philosophers can not give a proper answers for how humanity came to be and even to many questions, purpose of being in this earth . Shincheonji created not according to the way of science teaching. It is about spirituality which is beyond the worldly teachings
@@sharmapragatheesh8895 yes I agree that science can't explain supernatural existence. Science investigates the natural world. Its the most reliable method we have to acquire knowledge of the natural world. What method do you follow to investigate the supernatural? I am not familiar with a reliable method for this. Science, philosophy and religion doesn't know the cause of existence. Scientists will regularly acknowledge that they don't know. Its those who are closed minded and dogmatic that claim that they know regardless of the evidence.
@@sharmapragatheesh8895 Shincheonji believes in the god of the Shincheonji and the jesus that Lee man her created, Shincheonji don't believe in the God of the Bible, the One who created Heavens and Earth, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
@@SCJSkeptic, It is my humble request to you, kindly give me your WhatsApp number please please please, because instructors are hiding me the truth, many times I want to conversation with them to know about Their Ministry but they are giving me chance
I was in for almost 2 months and left , things were not adding up and I felt something was completely off and ofc I did my research which confirmed a lot of things.
I definitely believe that was the Holy Spirit warning me
the same experience as yours. Thank God.
Yeah I was there for like a month and one night I was sick and didn’t attend their bible study. While I was praying, God told me to google them and leave. That day I left and never went back.
Jn 1:1-4 :)
What's your point?
Dear Laurie,
It has now been 7 months since I have left SCJ. I left maybe 7 months after I had fully passed over and have never looked back. Granted I was still a new member and did not experience much of what you went through. I am so sorry for the things you experienced. I am so glad I left, I had so many questions, many of which I never asked because I thought this was normal since it was so new to me.
It was later down the line where I learned truly messed up SCJ is. I did about 2 days worth of research, listening to podcasts and watching a short vice documentary. This was when I knew I had to go.
What really got me was, we were told to not pay attention to politics and voting was not important,
Seriously, I can't even look at the bible without having the teaching screaming at me.
Thank you for sharing your story. I hope to find healing.
Thank you so much for sharing. It's never easy to share 😪 because we would be labeled as the anti-christ, and those we consider friends and family will reject us because we no longer believe. It takes courage to voice one's testimony. It will definitely inspire and warn millions of people!
❤️❤️❤️
Melissa! ❤️ I hope you are well.
Hey Mellisa you left? Still in KZN?
Are you just sceptic or free from the beast? Do you believe that Jesus is God or believe that their is another false messiah savoir? Are you free from satans lies and believe that Hesus is the only Way, TRUTH and the Life that He is the only doir( Joh 10) that whoever comes in by another is a thief and a robber. I see all the leaders make the same videos but know one say they free from the lies.Its just random stuff you guys are saying nothing about Jesus is God.! I think you gont wanna answer questions here gor all to see because you still with the beast and hav his mark 666. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD?
I'm ex member from south Korea. I am touched by your testimony Thanks for sharing your journey.
I'm a former member of World Mission Society Church of God (WMSCOG) . Great light studios led me here. I'm reading the comments from members of Shincheonji and they are very similar to comments from members of Wmscog. Gaslighting and passive aggressive. I'm so glad you are speaking out and I hope members of this high control group will be free.
It’s really refreshing I think to see content with an approach based on science and critical thinking. SCJ and psychological manipulation, more widely, is a public health risk. The more we rely on the scientific method to support claims, the more our voices as ex-cult members can be legitimised in the main, instead of dismissed, so this is really important imo. Thank you for taking the time and I’m looking forward to future videos.
Thanks for the support :)
You will soon see a testimony of a familiar face on this channel.
It will be a public health issue soon because their manipulation is deep.It hits the core of who one is as a human being especially when this place is suppose to be the place of TRUTH!🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Depending on how you'd use it, wouldn't the reliance on scientific approaches and critical thinking also hurt Christianity as a whole? For example, I once saw an analysis which theorised that Jesus would have been too injured/frail to carry a heavy wooden cross twice his size, and that the explanation to how he dragged it was to split the cross planks in two, carry one beam of the cross while another person carried the other beam.
@@batterysurf great point. Yes I think it can to some extent.
Science investigates the natural (physical) while religion deals with the supernatural (spiritual). Therefore, the two can be compatible under certain circumstances. Accepting a scientific worldview doesn’t necessarily require us to give up religion. However, problems can arise when religion makes claims about the natural world that is incompatible with science or claims about the supernatural that contain logical contradictions.
Note that I value truth over tradition. I believe that everyone should have the right to their own opinions but not their own facts. Please feel free to criticize my ideas if you disagree.
I won't really address things like you mentioned. I will address broad concepts and focus more on the thinking processes behind it.
Note that the way you used theorized is not scientific language but colloquial language. If that type of language was used in an article or video then it could have been pseudoscientific.
💪🏻❤️
Thank you very much for this very genuine and courageous video. I have left SCJ fter 5 yrs. The impact of it leaves you very messed up mentally. I was close to nvr leaving but my family and those closest to me helped me. God is good and I truly believe he will cont to guide each and every one watching. 🙏
Thanks for the support and kind message
How did your family help you?We’ve been trying to help my daughter but every time we tried we feel we are pushing her away.
Hey thanks for your video, it's good to hear from a higher longterm member.
I was in SCJ Switzerland for a little while. Our Leader was from South Africa too. A really nice guy and I really hope he finds his way out.
Yeah I know him. He is a great guy. There are many great people in SCJ.
I also left SCJ Switzerland this week, it was a ride. I also had to realize that they tried to indoctrinate/brainwash me. Many people also just need SCJ as a qucik fix for their problems.
@@kgizzla Left this week in Switzerland, congratulations! It would be nice to hear a bit more from you. If you want to share your "SCJ-experience" feel free to write me a pm.
This was really neat to hear, thanks very much for sharing man
Thank you so much for your testimony. This is really helpful in my journey
Hi Shincheonji Skeptic,
Thank you so much for your valuable video. I find myself in a lot of your thoughts and would be happy to connect. I'm writing from an account where we post our podcast episodes about our experiences in SCJ and how their mind control works.
Anyways keep the good work up, all the best from Germany.
That's great. It would be nice to connect.
You can email me on shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com
Your journey is informative about Shincheonji because it reveals a lot about what happens in the church.
I'm glad you shared your story with us. Keep it up!
💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
I'm currently a member of it now and I just did a thorough research about this organization and what I discovered really shocked me. I can't believe. I want to quit the course and I'm planning to quit. I'm just thinking about the personal information that I left with them. I'm such a fool for giving personal information to complete strangers 😭 will it be used against me? i really hope not.
Hello Robelyn
From my experience they probably won't use your personal information in an illegal way. There has been cases where SCJ used people's personal information to pitch up at their work or home in order to convince them to come back to SCJ after they left without telling the leaders. Because of this I suggest that you clearly state to the SCJ leaders that you want to leave and be left alone. Be firm and set clear boundaries. At the end of the day, it's up to you what you want to do.
I was on a one-on-one session bible study via zoom for almost 2 mos with the one who recruited me and then referred me to a smaller group for bout 4 months session, then invited me to a bigger group for a course that will last for at least a year. Currently, I am in 2 mos now with the course and still on a lesson about the secret of heaven hidden in parables. I know I feel something off and ignore the red flag prior because I did ask my recruiter what church they belong to or are affiliated with and told me none but they are a group of volunteers and missionaries that came up a group during the pandemic. I did ask again my current teacher the same question but got the same answer. That's when I did my thorough research which pointed me to SCJ. To validate my doubts I even spent lots of hours watching their teachings on their official YT account and got surprised by the doctrines they have. Got fooled. I also watched podcasts, testimonies, social media, and some possible means..... and came up with the decision to just get out of it the soonest possible.
Good thing I did not give much of my personal info but in case they use that I am not afraid.. by all means🙂
Part 2 of 2
I belonged to the Port Elizabeth church and we travelled to Cape Town end of March 2015 when Mr Man Hee Lee (or Seonsaengnim as referred to) as well as the apostle of the Phillip branch who we fell under since we were the Phillip(of the 12 disciples) branch when they came to South Africa. I remember sitting in the 2nd row the day of the service and I was so tired because so much preparation had to be done for his arrival such as practicing doing dance routine to welcoming him at the airport, run like a mad person at the airport after him and all the prep we had to do for the service, all this while having to pretend to have positive energy. The next day in the service, I had to sit upright and smile whole service and shout "amen" at the top my lounges, consistently. I hated that experience so much, it just didn't feel right. I remember asking James after the service if there wasn't a way I could go home. I have family in Cape Town and wanted to contact them so I could go home but my request was met with rebuke. I was asked how I could make such a request that when I just received the water of life directly from the One who Overcame, New John. I was just so sleep deprived since we didn't sleep since arriving in Cape Town the day before.
At the end of 2015 I had exams and I really wanted to focus of them since my time at SCJ had a negative impact on my academic progress but I can tell you that period was the least focused I could possibly have been. I started missing services and activities and the harassment began. They started coming to my house unannounced. I stayed with my dad at the time and he started asking questions like who are these faces are that I've never mentioned or introduced to him, as you know in black homes, especially religious ones, parents want to see who your friends are. I fell ill because the anxiety was killing me, resulting in me missing an exam and I was starting to lose my hair the way I was stressed. The tipping point for me was when I got a call from Ziggy, who was one of the main guys in Port Elizabeth at the time. I was busy studying and I don't know why I took his call since I usually don't answer my phone while studying. He started the call all friendly and concerned, telling me he's happy to hear that I've recovered and he hopes my studies are going well. Then he changed the subject and the tone of voice as he changed the subject was one of the most chilling things and most difficult things to forget. He asked me if he could read me a scripture which I agreed to. I can't remember exactly what scripture it was but it was regards to those that don't make the 144000. Then he asked me what do I think will happen to me if I don't attend services, activities, etc. implying all those things he read was going to happen to me. I was so shocked and I remember telling him that it's really not a good time to speak because my mind was consumed with studies. I think that response triggered him and he started going off at me with scriptures and demanding I say which side I belong to (good seed/bad seed). I didn't respond and he switched the phone off in my ear. I was so shaken and that I struggled to study further. They would continue call me from different numbers and privates numbers since I didn't answer their calls and messages.
Holidays arrived and my varsity friends which I became close with throughout the year invited me to go with them on holiday. I was so anxious during that time because it was holiday and it would've become incredibly difficult to hide what I was involved in from my family since university was my cover for where I've been disappearing to and was the only way get my dad's car. I decided to go on the holiday with my friends which was one of the most incredible getaways I've had. This wasn't received well by them but for the first time in my life I put my foot down and did something for myself. I felt my age again (21 at the time), young and refreshed and it gave me time to reflect on what I was involved in and whether it was a cult on not. I decided that I wouldn't go back and YOOOH I can't explain the fear and anxiety I went through. Every time something went wrong in my life, I was like, Ooooh, the Lord is punishing me for leaving.
2015 was probably the most difficult year of my life, and I still say that after years like 2020 and 2021 happened. 2016 came and until this day I regard it as the best year of my life. Not only did I feel liberated, but the religious chains that I was bound by, both through Shincheonji and the Pentecostal church was broken. I started genuinely enjoying and appreciating my life. I started being open to experiences, I mingled with people outside of the religious environment and made all kinds of friends, nationally and internationally. As much as the Shincheonji experience was a horrid experience, it changed my mindset about religion. Even growing up Pentecostal, which is considered radical, they are very judgmental to other Christian denominations. We strongly believed in being filled with the Spirit which many denominations don't preach and practice. Even the way we do praise and worship is different compared to those that say, sing from a hymn book.
I think the word that was being preached at SCJ was good but it came with a catch and the emotional manipulation and how they trap you using the word, in my eyes don't make them distinctive from what I grew up with religiously. When I visit my old church, I just feel so disconnected and I cannot receive the word the way I used to. I wouldn't say I'm atheist but I'm just done with religion. I believe there is a God because to me, the Big Bang Theory is an even more absurd idea then the possibility of there being a God. I still have dreams about the anxiety I experienced during Shincheonji days. I haven't spoken to anyone about this ever and I plan on seeing a psychologist or therapy for my experience because as I typed this message I had to relive all the pain and negative emotions that I've been avoiding.
My advice to anyone reading this, NEVER EVER stop asking questions and don't just believe anything, no matter how good it might sound. Be open to learn but don't allow anyone to indoctrinate you with their beliefs unless you can positively say that's the truth. Always trust your intuition. Cherish each moment with family and loved ones. And finally, you don't need a religion to be a good person and to be a productive member of society.
Thanks for your encouraging words.
I know Ziggy. He later became an instructor and then youth leader in Cape Town.
During MHL's 17th trip, I also slept very little and even had a panic attack. However, at that time I thought that I was experiencing the heart of a living martyr. I developed an unhealthy obsession with suffering, thinking that I deserved it and that it's needed to eventually receive eternal happiness.
Regarding the big bang, the big bang is a cosmological theory that explains the expansion of the universe from a very hot and dense state to a less hot and dense state about 13.8 billion years ago. Some would argue that “the everywhere stretch” would be a better name than “the big bang” since it was not like something exploded into surrounding space but rather that space itself expanded. The big bang is a moment in time, not a point in space. It happened everywhere at the same time. The big bang theory does not teach that space-time came into existence from nothing, but rather that existing space-time expanded and changed in its state. We don’t know the origin of space-time. We know that the universe began to exist in its current state but we don’t know if the universe began to exist in its entirety. We don't know the origin of the laws of nature.
There is good evidence for the big bang. Three key pieces of observational evidence lend support to the Big Bang theory: the measured abundances of elements, the observed expansion of space, and the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation.
I wonder if we ever met, I remember the church being small and not a lot of people had cars in 2015. I wish I knew that you left and maybe I did, but didn't reach out.
Ever since joining, I always felt like something was off, but my thoughts are not God's thoughts etc. I'm sure you heard it all to.
I want to believe Ziggy would not do that, he was a nice guy, but leaders were taught to counsel in this way. I'm sorry you went through all of this alone.
I would want to meet you in person if possible. You can look at my channel details for an email address. I won't respond quickly though and I'll understand if you don't want to as well. I don't want to bring up any bad memories as those that came up with writing your comments here.
Thanks for sharing your story, it gave me so much clarity on this whole thing. I hope you're doing better now :)
I just left during the introductions because my teacher gave me manipulative vibes. Mentioning about cults and such when I hadn't even brought it up. The thing that hurts more is that this cult was the only reason my old friend wanted to connect again with me. It feels bad. hope she and everyone can see the truth because this cult is bad news.
Dear friend, as a Christian I am so grieved and angry about SCJ.
They twist something beautiful and free into chains.
This is not the God of Jews and Christians nor Jesus at all.
Thank you for exposing this cult.
Thanks so much for sharing your story and for the positive message you left at the end! Even a non believer can have a very happy life 😀😀
Thank you for sharing, we’ve been struggling for my daughter she was recruited in college and now all she wants to do in life is to serve SCJ, we tried everything to help her get out but she won’t listen to us. She marry her bf who she recruited and now he is supporting her while she continues full time with their ministry. It’s so frustrating to see her wasting her life with this cult.
Where is your daughter serving?
My friend is also serving for over 10 years now
Rebecca Liu This Korean cult is ruining a lot of young people lives, and what’s so weird she’s letting them destroy her future. Only God can help her, Devil will never win!
Rebecca Liu she’s serving in San Jose, California. She was recruited in SFSU.
@@foreverfaith1053 wow interesting. My friend was recruited out of USC and then they made her move to the OC. And now they transferred her to Washington DC. Insane. I’m really really strongly considering like going there myself. Shes ignored me for 2 years now. I’m the only friend that cares. I can’t believe this is happening in 2022.
Hi Laurie, (scj skeptic)
It's a joy to see this video and great that you managed to leave (7 years itch ) .
Thank you for sharing your experience.
I am in SCJ for 2 years.
I had doubts from the beginning. I tried to believe in SCJ, but I am still seeing logical and ethical errors here. SCJ is waste of time and highly developed manipulation.
I just learned the first lesson about the entity of revelation from SCJ , which is Lee Man Hee, and found your video.
I am now in Shincheonji since 3 years and I have different experience with the relationship between races.
I know personally some people who are married to Korean or engaged.
And because there are so many African people now there are also romantic feelings between races.
Until today I haven't seen a problem and this is totally new for me.
But I believe that where are people will be always be human problems.
Especially if you are a full time worker in Shincheonji.
Korean people have to accept that the people in different cultures are different and has to be treated in a different way.
There was a church leader who was to much strict and they called him back to Korea. Love between the followers should be number one.
But thank you for sharing your experience.
As long as I feel good and saved I will stay.
Humans will be humans until God is coming finally and changing the world.
Thanks for your comment.
Yes I also know many foreign SCJ people who are married to Koreans. The former church head of South Africa (Korean man) got married to a South African woman. I think you might be over generalizing what I said. I meant that interracial marriage wasn't allowed in some of the regions I worked in (Philip tribe regions) for a specific time period (2014-2020). Furthermore, I have personally spoken to leaders from Peter tribe and John tribe who also said that interracial marriage wasn't allowed in the regions that they worked in.
Man Hee Lee gave a sermon during November 2017 where he stated that races shouldn't mix through marriage. This caused a lot of confusion within members and no clear answers was given regarding why he said that. A while later the Philip tribe HQ communicated to us that no interracial marriage is allowed. They said it's a command from Man Hee Lee and should be obeyed as "God's law". This was only communicated to high leaders and we were told not to share this with those lower in structure because this could make them stumble. When people from different races would be interested in each other we would just break them up and tell them to focus on "God's work". I enquired about this to the general assembly in Gwacheon. They told me that there were cases where Korean leaders would be sent overseas to establish new SCJ churches in foreign countries. For immigration purposes they would get married to foreigners. However, many of the Korean leaders grew weak in their faith because of these relationships. They said this is why Man Hee Lee doesn't want there to be interracial marriage anymore.
However, in Philip tribe overseas regions no interracial marriage was allowed. They would sometimes make exceptions if interracial couples dated already before SCJ or for certain struggling members. But leaders were not allowed to get married to someone from a different race under any circumstances at that time. Then later they changed the rules again by saying that you can get married to people from a different race as long as their skin tone is not too far apart from your own. Like for example white people could get married to brown people but not to black people. Black people could get married to brown people but not to white people. There were some exceptions that were made sometimes but it was purely up to the authority of the church leaders to decide if it was allowed or not. However, Koreans still couldn't get married to any non Koreans.
Your statement regarding "where there are people, there will always be human problems" is simply stating the obvious. I have never met a person that didn't have that expectation. I didn't leave simply because of problems with people. I stated this explicitly in my video. However, the unnecessary suffering and confusion within SCJ is incompatible with an all knowing, all powerful and all loving God regardless of sin, Satan and free will.
Let me give you some examples.
There has been numerous cases where SCJ members have been raped by people outside of SCJ. There was a member who cried out to the God of SCJ to help her while she was being raped. Of course nothing happened. SCJ responded by saying that it's because of man's sinful nature, Satan's influence over the world and God giving free will to people. However, an all knowing God would have known what was happening, an all powerful God would have the ability to do something about it, and an all loving God would have done something about it. However, this supposed God didn't do anything. This implies that the God of SCJ valued the free will of the person raping her above her own well-being. Now this is grossly immoral. You would have to sacrifice your intellect and human dignity to believe in such a moral monster. But at the end of the day, there is no good evidence for the existence of the God of SCJ so I am just speaking hypothetically.
There has been numerous cases where the way things are explained are very vague and confusing. This results in people leaving SCJ. Now SCJ believes that these people will receive eternal punishment simply for not being convinced of their doctrine. SCJ then labels these people as betrayers and think that there is something wrong with these people based on what they read in some book (the bible). This makes SCJ seem very closed minded and intellectually lazy. Why would an all knowing, all powerful and all loving God not intervene in this? This implies that the God of SCJ either doesn't know how to do it, can't do it or doesn't care. But at the end of the day, there is no good evidence for the existence of the God of SCJ so I am just once again speaking hypothetically.
Humans have created gods for thousands of years to avoid taking responsibility for their actions and to deal with the harshness and uncertainty that comes from objective reality. It's great that you feel good and saved. Your religious belief seems to give you certain psychological benefits. However, there is one objective reality that binds us all together. Beliefs inform our actions, and actions have consequences. Superstitious thinking have divided human beings for a long time and have caused a lot of harm. While it might benefit the individual in certain circumstances, it has done a lot of harm to human beings overall.
@@SCJSkeptic You made some great points. But with this 'There has been numerous cases where SCJ members have been raped by people outside of SCJ', can you please share exactly where and what and when? I mean you can say this but where is the proof? Was it just hearsay? How do we even confirm it? Also, becoming a member of SCJ is nothing. Because there will still be divsion in Mt Zion, the sheep and the goats will be separated according to Jesus' words in the gospels, so not every 'member' is sealed. Jesus spoke about standing till the last day. Often times, people even if they are called 'members' can be doing their own things and often unwise. You said you left after 7 years so being a member does not mean anything.
@@mightylittlesnowflake2205 I'm not going to share about the specifics of those that were raped. It's a sensitive and private matter. I'm quite surprised you would ask such a question. You don't need to believe me that's fine. It's a matter of ethics and has no bearing on the truthfulness of the claims made by SCJ.
So basically you're telling me I'm a goat haha. That's merely a label. What method did you follow to confirm supernatural causation?
And do you perhaps have a response to my Rv 7 video?
I would say that information can get lost in translation as it is being passed down amidst other factors. So it is just basing on what you said here. I am not saying I do not believe you but I am asking you to show us the proof that such things happened. You don't have to get into the specifics but you are also being general. Like perhaps there are some news posted by media that speak about this?
John the baptist was believed to be a true servant of God and Christianity today believes he is until we found out that he was actually swallowed up by the religious teachers in his time. He actually betrayed God by not obeying his job properly as the lampstand. Most never know. Judas Iscariot is one of the 12 disciples but he followed his own greed and lust. So what I am trying to say is we never will really know the entire picture, except God himself.
It is not me who is labeling you a goat. If Jesus is really with Mt Zion and SCJ, then it is Jesus who is calling you a goat.
@@mightylittlesnowflake2205 I agree that information can get lost in translation. That's a valid point. These instances were not reported to government authorities so there are no documentation about those cases except for the personal testimonies of the SCJ members.
You didn't respond to my question about supernatural causation or Revelation 7. I am yet to hear someone from SCJ demonstrate a reliable method to confirm supernatural causation. All they do is make assumptions and assertions. It's hard to take them seriously.
Most of your comment assumes that the Christian god exists and that the bible is true. I reject both of these claims. You will need to demonstrate it with evidence. You also claim that god knows the entire picture, how do you know this? You are just asserting things.
You read a book that you think is true, you have a specific interpretation of the book that labels me as a goat and agree with that interpretation. Then you are agreeing with Jesus' label of calling me a goat. This is the same as labelling me as a goat. Take some responsibility and stop hiding behind your supposed "messiah".
Thanks for your video, and thank you for the extensive list of resources. I'm taking classes now, my personality is highly skeptical of most things in life (which is how I happed upon your video) so I'm not sure how long I'll last. Right now, I'm just enjoying studying the bible.
I’m glad you got out of SCJ however am saddened you no longer believe in Christ and the Bible. I still believe. I was a Christian for 3 years before I got “recruited” to SCJ. After 6 months with them and figuring out who this supposed promised pastor was, I got scared and I left. I’m still healing. Praying for all of you.
Thanks for the kind message :)
I have good reason and evidence for my conclusions though. I'm very happy with my secular worldview and proud of my decision to leave religious dogma behind me.
I copied and paste this from another video on which that I commented/expressed my experience - thank you Laurie for sharing yours!
PART 1 of 2
I created this anonymous RUclips account because of the anxiety I still have from that experience. I've been trying to speak about it more and see other people's experience of it. It's been over 6 years since I've left but SCJ definitely left a mark in my life.
In 2014, my parents were going through a divorce, they just split and moved into separate houses and it was probably one of the lowest points of my life. I felt so alone and heartbroken and I looked for refuge in my church as well as praise and worship. I didn't fit into social groups at my church at the time so I was very lonely and I started making varsity friends but we weren't close yet then. One day in the university library, I did a short prayer asking the Lord to help me grow closer to Him and send help, little did I know that the same prayer that would keep would get me involved in SCJ. When I left the library(Oct/Nov 2014), I bumped into this really pretty and friendly girl named Lerato. She asked me if I was Christian and if I'd be interested in joining a bible study with her for which I agreed on. I felt in that moment that the Lord was answering my prayer. I started having one of one session with a guy named Simon. He was a really nice guy, he was always reaching out to me and regularly took me out for lunch and this meant a lot to me at the time.
When I went for the interview to join the bible study, that was the first time my gut feeling was against it. I was interviewed by a guy named James, who was very eager but there was just something about his eyes and aura that made me uneasy. In the interview they were very intent on letting me know that they're looking for people who are hungry to learn, which I was but I also wanted to know what I was getting myself into, then already they were very dismissive of my 10 thousand questions and told me to attend to find out. Also, they gave me Jehovah Witness vibes since they all wore black and white in the middle of the day and the lady wore white, which I later found out was the "heavenly attire". Our first few classes were done by a Korean guy named Joshua, I think. As I mentioned, I've got an inquisitive personality trait and as we got to the section about the scripture about the fisherman and the boat, and I remember being told something like God keeps the good fish on the boat and bad fish gets tossed back into the sea. So us leaving is the bible study is not our own doing, but simply God tossing out the bad fish. I also remember being told that the fish that wiggles and resists these preaching's are bad fish and will get tossed back into the sea(which is the world until they later taught us it's Christianity). I started realizing that this was theme of many of the classes when the parables were being reveled to us, especially when it was started being revealed who the one is who overcomes (Mr. Man Hee Lee). I stop questioning things because I didn't want to be "bad seed" and I wanted to be part of the 144000.
Eventually our class was introduced into SCJ (Passed over - New Heaven, New Earth) and they had a massive service for us newcomers. I can remember how overwhelmed I felt that day. Everyone was so hyped and happy which is the opposite of my timid nature and everything was Korean cultured which also was quite a culture shock. I continued on but things in my personal life were unbearably difficult plus the demands of being part of Shincheonji was incredibly stressful. I was studying at the time (BSc degree). Due of my parents divorce a lot of responsibilities fell on my shoulders. The demands from Shincheonji were also insane, you are required to be involved in everything, and since I drove my dad's car I had to drop off people late at night after the midweek services or events, participate in funding raises, walks on campus trying to get people to join us and studying for the tests that you need to write in order to pass over(We graduated/passed over before completing our classes because we had to prepare for Mr Man Hee Lee's arrival is Cape Town in March 2015). Things were said to me like, because of the sacrifice and because I'm being martyred like those that were martyred to spread the word, my family will enter into the kingdom of heaven and receive all the heavenly gifts. I mean my family was going through hell so of course I was going to do everything to "save them". I stayed on and suffered throughout 2015. I had so many fights with my parents because of my behavioral and lifestyle changes(always seeking around secretively) and in my eyes they were doing satan's work when they challenged me. I remember the shock I had when my mom asked me if I had joined a cult, because that was the thing they said would happen to us in the bible study classes.
Thanks for sharing. I know Simon, James and Joshua.
This is a very good testimony, I’m glad you left I’m praying that my daughter will wake up soon from this nightmare and bring her back to old self again.
@@SCJSkeptic as in Joshua Jackson the bb teacher who can breakdance that one?
@@firelordzaki1600 I were referring to another Joshua that was in South Africa for a while.
Any pointers on helping fiance get outa it. Their grandmother 👵 pressured them into it now I'm stuck but they swear to God heaven above up and down that's its not a cult. 🙃🥲🤔😳😳😳
Hey Laurie, thanks for this! 🙏🏾 I was just at the beginning stage of this indoctrination process but it didn't really work on me because I couldn't just accept certain premises without due question. 🤷🏽♀️ it just goes against the scientist in me 😂 Please keep doing what you're doing and raising awareness. I especially like how you're encouraging people to learn how to think critically for themselves. 😊
Thanks for the support 🥰🙏
I saw you wanted to make contact with me. Please feel free to email me at shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com
Great content! Thanks for your honesty and clarification about SCJ!
I'm so shocked to hear all of this. I am so glad I left.
Hello :)
To introduce myself shortly I´m 34 years old and also almost 7 years in Shincheonji. I´m also a very critical person that doesn´t believe easily, checking things thoroughly too, also believe in science and know pretty well about psychological mechanisms and also already complaint a lot about things that happened at church. However there is one big difference between me and the lecturer, that I still believe in God, Jesus, the bible, Man Hee Lee as the promised pastor and the existence of the prophecied 12 tribes.
I have watched your video and have to admit that you´re presentation is really professional, factual and convicing. Also I can completely understand why you´ve chosen to take this way to leave in Shincheonji and believe that everything you´ve spoken about from your experiences unfortunately is the truth. Nethertheless I´m not confirm with your conclusions, as I´m obviously still a member of Shincheonji, being proud of it and feel very blessed that God allowed me to have this strong faith that also enabled me to overcome even harshest experiences I also already had in Shincheonji. What always helped me in my worest times especially as a newcomer was that I was always looking on God, his word of the bible and the promised pastor.
To also present another perspective about what you´ve been speaking about I would like to take the chance and ask some questions here, every reader is free to think about them on his own.
1. There might be huge and also inacceptable misinterpretations of the doctrines of Shincheonji, even among highest leaders and also can imagine that their might be some irresponsible leaders in SCJ that misuse their authority what of course should never happen at all.
But my question is have you ever heard about that the promised pastor commanded to do an abortion if the baby would be from a pagan or do you have any proofs that he would support such a kind of practise?
2. It was also mentioned that in some regions it was forbidden to have any interracial marriage. As I´ve also remember well the words of the promised pastor during this sermon in 2017 and also have heard about the backgrounds why he gave this kind of words during service and remember it different like it was pictured here, I would like to ask another question.
Do you really think that the promised pastor gave these kind of words for racist reasons or might it be also possible that he had some other good intentions with it like the goal to prevent bigger disharmonies in a relationship and protect the saints from the huge disappointment of an unlucky marriage and possible divorce but never gave this as a law?
3. Regarding that you´ve also attended the SCJ church for 7 years and said that you truely believed in the teachings I can still understand well ur reasons to leave Shincheonji. However looking at the immense increasing of SCJ congregation-members despite harshest and cruelest persecution and deffamation from many sides or just by looking at an over 90 year old man that still has such a strength in his voice and unstoppable will to fulfill God´s kingdom here on earth, no matter what the opponents did and accused him for, and never thought about just having some holiday or take a rest for couple of days what is hardly explainable rationally, I would also like to ask some more last questions.
How do you explain yourself all of this?
Looking at the entire work of Shincheonji and the promised pastor, is it really worth to throw away all of this you´ve once firmly believed in for the reason of human mistakes or seemingly contradictions in the teachings?
And even if this might be a hypothetical question for you - Will you believe and what will you do if the 1st resurrection really takes place soon within your lifetime?
Warm greetings from my heart to everyone, God´s blessing and hope God will guide you all the right way.
Thanks for the comment.
You fundamentally misunderstand the reasons why I left. Your questions are not pertaining to the epistemological reasons why I left but rather to the unethical things that I experienced. SCJ's beliefs are fundamentally unjustified regardless of the unethical things that happen within SCJ or the mistakes that are made by SCJ's leaders. However, I will still answer your questions.
1. Regarding abortion, I doubt that Man Hee Lee would support abortion and I don't think he is aware that these things happened in the regions I worked in. Regardless of this, it still happened without any repercussions and are currently still happening (based on a testimony of a leader who recently left).
2. Regarding interracial marriage, I do think that Man Hee Lee's motives were based on the faithwalk of people. However, I think his reasons are based on an over generalization of the potential consequences of interracial marriage. This unnecessarily results in the division of people based on race and the restriction of their freedom. Therefore, I reject his moral justification. This is why I think it produces racist behavior (dividing people based on race without moral justification).
Your statements about interracial relationships producing disharmony, unlucky marriage and divorce is just silly. There are various potential causes for such things within a marriage but they are psychological and not based on the color of someone's skin. I would admit that culture can play a role in a relationship but culture is not neccesarily connected to race. I embrace a very different culture to most white Afrikaans people in South Africa. When it comes to romance, I think the compatibility of people's beliefs, values, goals and personality is much more important than their race or the culture they grew up with.
3. It is important to note that many of the things SCJ labels as persecution and defamation is actually just criticism. They just conflate language for their own benefit. However, I do acknowledge that coercive conversion education is unethical and should be considered to be persecution. You say that the zeal and growth of SCJ cannot be explained rationally. This is just silly. When people are sincerely convinced of something, label those outside of their organization as deceived, evil and persecutors; have an effective recruitment method, obey their leaders without question and have sufficient motivation or hope, we would expect their organization to keep growing regardless of the circumstances. This is perfectly rational.
Your statement regarding connecting the growth of SCJ with truth is a logical fallacy (appeal to popularity fallacy). The amount of people who believe something doesn't tell us anything about whether it is true or not. I left SCJ because I realized that my beliefs were not based on good evidence but rather based on logical fallacies. It is not worth living my life according to beliefs that are false or unjustified. It was definitely worth it leaving SCJ.
I left because I realized that all the the major arguments for God's existence is fallacious and the bible is a book of myths and legend. SCJ cannot demonstrate supernatural existence nor do they have a reliable method to verify supernatural causation.
Regarding your question about the first resurrection. If someone could demonstrate supernatural existence to me as well as a causal relationship between the God of SCJ and the event of the first resurrection then of course I would believe in it's existence. I really care about what is true and wouldn't reject it based on feelings or bad experiences. However, I would probably not worship the God of SCJ. The God of SCJ / Bible is a moral monster that allowed for genocide and slavery in the Old Testament, and punishes people infinitely for finite sins in the New Testament. Furthermore, he thinks the death of an innocent person for the sins of other guilty people (scapegoating) is needed to forgive people. This is disgusting. Moreover, we have good evidence to believe that Noah's flood didn't happen. We have no good evidence that the exodus out of Egypt as stated in the Bible ever happened. We don't know who wrote the gospels or many other books in the new testament. We don't have the original manuscripts and the supposed God of the bible expects us to believe in miracles based on hearsay. This is just ridiculous to believe. If this God exists then he is incompetent. There are many other reasons to reject the Bible and SCJ. However, SCJ people generally aren't willing to listen to criticism of their God or the book they believe in.
Perhaps you can present a case for supernatural existence and causation. Unless you can do this, I find it difficult to take your organization seriously given that SCJ claims that they will heal and rule all nations. That will be difficult to do if you cannot formulate sound or cogent arguments for your beliefs.
I have had many people tell me that they are critical thinkers and embrace science but through discussions with them it becomes obvious that they have almost no understanding of science and critical thinking. If you don't even understand basic logical fallacies, then with all due respect, you don't know how to think critically.
Thanks a lot for your response. I´m seriously impressed about your fast and eloquent answer. You´re definetely a very skilled person, blessed with a lot of capacities from a God, you´re not even believing in.
Don´t worry, I completely understood your points that you haven´t left SCJ for moral reasons, but also mentioned that everyone shall free to meditate about my words on his own.
1. As I believe firmly in God´s kingdom and the sea of glass like crystal I´m convinced that all those grievances will be corrected by time. Regarding that we could say God´s kingdom in all its beautiness so far is just fulfilled 3,9% but already can see many improvements within just couple of years, this gives me great hope and confidence for a wonderful future.
2. Yeah I see your point and think especially in South Africa this certainly is a more contraversial topic and should be handled very sensitively. The problem is that as the promised pastor it also just one human being, he´s not able to solve all the problems in this world and even within Shincheonji instantly. However what I can definetely say is that I know noone else like him having so much passion, eagerness and a loving heart for people and would love to embrace all mankind, even his worest opponents. Such a heart is absolutely unique for me.
3. Because so far you didn´t give any explanation how it is possible that a 90 year old man is nonstop working for God´s kingdom since more than 50 years (half a century) without having any break-time, everyone who´s interested in I could also give another 99 points or more why he´s the most wonderful shepherd that has ever lived here on this earth.
About the other point I think we can at least say that for many saints it would be much easier to just give up their faith but still keep to it strongly. And not everyone is just feared of hell but also sees the great hope and promise that is given to us and also appreciates to be part of God´s family.
From a scientific perspective you´re certainly right. Like it also was said from someone else, here it also comes to faith and it´s written that blessed are those that believe even if they can´t see yet.
Also regarding the last point I can completely feel with you and also already had my personal harsh struggles with accepting the way how God is and how he´s working. It was really a hard fight. However in the end I´ve realized that even from my perspective that might be lower than God´s perspective it just doesn´t make any sense to criticize or even judge the one that has created everyone of us. Eventually I realized that indeed it was my own huge rock of arrogance God needed to cut. Today I wouldn´t say that I needed to change my entire personality and completely reject myself but yes what I did is to bow down before God and can say I got reborn as a new creation that is striving for to get more closer to the image of God.
For my own testimony I can say that I´m honestly thankful from deepest of my heart that even all the bad things that also happened to me in SCJ, also saw a lot of inrigteousness here and also still have dozens of questions noone could answer me so far, I was allowed to come here and be part of God´s greatest work of healing this world and will be able to live eternally in a world of peace and endless happiness.
@@marcelfrei6110 Regarding your assertion about my capabilities being from a God that I don't even believe in, you will need to provide evidence for this since it seems like you like to make bold assertions without evidence. As far as I can know, my intellectual abilities and knowledge comes from my biology and environment (this is observable and known in biology and psychology). The assertion that you made is untestable and therefore irrational.
You say you completely understood that I didn't leave for moral reasons yet that's what you stated in the message that seemed to be addressed to me. That's a strawman fallacy. If you send me a message please primarily address me and my positions since this is what is generally expected in rational discourse.
Your beliefs are fundamentally based on a book that is immoral. I don't see how much progress you can make regardless of time unless you start rejecting parts of your book and cherry pick verses like many other religious people do.
While Man Hee Lee is just one human being, you also believe in God and millions of angels. Why do they do nothing about any of these things or the problems in the world? They don't seem to manifest in reality in a detectable way which makes them indiscernible from things that don't exist (are imaginary). You say that Man Hee Lee is unique to you, that's great for you, but I care more about what is true or justified than what seems nice to me or others. When you speak about the idea of "loving" it is important to remember that SCJ and the Bible's concept of love is based on obedience to God. This is considered to be more important than even such a thing as human well being. The problem with this concept of love is that it allows for harmful behavior like genocide, slavery, manipulation and indoctrination as long as people believe it's commanded by God. Man Hee Lee wants to convert the whole world to accept his teachings that he claims is from God. But you guys cannot demonstrate the truthfulness of your claims. Look in your above message, you even appealed to faith since you don't have good reason and evidence for your beliefs. Faith is not a reliable pathway to truth since it could justify belief in any claim. Faith is gullibility. Your epistemology is fundamentally unjustified.
Saying that Man Hee Lee has been working 50 years nonstop without rest is just factually incorrect or perhaps you exaggerated a bit. While I would admit that he works very hard, he definitely also rests like most normal people. He rested during his 17th and 29th trips overseas. I was there. Why do I need to give an explanation for why he does this work? You believe it is supernatural so the burden of proof lies upon you. I acknowledge that he is zealous and works very hard for his goals, but I don't see any evidence that there is a causal relationship between the supernatural and the work he is doing.
Your appeals to emotion and personal experience is subjective anecdotal evidence that cannot justify belief in any supernatural claims for the rest of us who try to be rational. You keep asserting things but provide no evidence, nor did you answer my request to present an argument for supernatural existence and causation. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
@@SCJSkeptic Hello again :)
I´m still pretty astonished about your zeal to maintain your youtube-channel, as well that you´re able to give the right psychological or other scientific expression for every stylistic devices. That´s really remarkable.
Indeed it´s hard to say that I do cherry-picking as I´m a vegetarian since my age of 11, so I really dislike the point of sacrificing animals in the old testament but same time happy to live in the time of the new testament. Nethertheless I accept and believe in the bible as the entire and holy scripture given from God.
Although I´m also a person that likes to discuss with others it doesn´t seem to me very constructive as you command scientific proofs or anything else to falsify the given statements however religion doesn´t have the claim to give scientific proofs. For me personally it´s enough to see that except Shincheonji there is no other church known to me that is created in 12 tribes, that is harvesting and sealing 144.000 and noone else could ever answer on all my questions I had before Shincheonji and the entire picture itself (although it´s still very lacking) makes totally sense to me.
As you certainly can understand it´ll hard for us to make a time travel together to see if there was really the great flood or if Jesus did really all those miracles and resurrected from the death. However I believe in the fulfilled realitiy of the prophecies of the new testament and also believe in the 1st resurrection to happen soon within this decade. Till then I would kindly ask you to have some more patience but as I´m quite sure this speaks about a date during our both lifetimes, I´m looking forward to continue our discussion latest in 2030.
@@marcelfrei6110
The accuracy of a scripture is not extraordinary if all of its accurate points can be explained by simple observation or selective interpretation. If the value of a scripture is dependent on its accuracy, it becomes meaningless when we find numerous errors within it. Furthermore, even if a scripture was actually inerrant, this would not necessarily prove the existence or the omniscience and reliability of God. It is possible for people who are not omniscient to write books that are without error.
The common flaws in people’s reasoning regarding scriptural inerrancy is that they assume it to be inerrant without discerning it for themselves first (fallacy of begging the question) or they assume that because parts of it are accurate that the whole thing is accurate (fallacy of composition).
When we assume inerrancy without discerning for ourselves first, we will struggle to identify and acknowledge any errors but rather interpret the scripture in such a way that confirms our belief in its inerrancy. If we assume scriptural inerrancy then scriptures from different religions can be considered to be inerrant even if they contain incompatible claims.
Occasional accuracy does not necessarily indicate the overall accuracy of a scripture. In most fictional books and erroneous academic papers, we still find some accurate points. If we assume the overall accuracy of a scripture because of its occasional accuracy then scriptures from different religions can be considered to be accurate even if they contain incompatible claims.
If we claim a scripture is inerrant, then we are also claiming that our interpretation of the scripture is inerrant. If we claim that our interpretation of the scripture is inerrant, then we are also claiming that we ourselves (those who interpret) are inerrant. Otherwise, there is no way to determine whether a scripture is actually inerrant or not. Many scriptures are written in vague ancient languages and there are constant disagreements regarding what the true meaning is. Some people interpret the scriptures more literally and some people interpret it more figuratively (specifically once they learn that the literal interpretation is factually incorrect). Many of the groups with different interpretations regularly say that the other groups are deceived. The bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) and that believers should be perfectly united (John 17:20-23, 1 Corinthians 1:10). However, the bible has produced more confusion and division than almost any book ever written.
Science investigates the natural (physical) while religion deals with the supernatural (spiritual). Therefore, the two can be compatible under certain circumstances. Accepting a scientific worldview doesn’t necessarily require us to give up religion. However, problems can arise when religion makes claims about the natural world that is incompatible with science or claims about the supernatural that contain logical contradictions.
We should not merely seek for the supernatural since this can make us try to match reality with our expectations, rather we should try to seek for truth and the best possible understanding of reality regardless of whether anything supernatural exists or not. We cannot test supernatural existence with science since it focuses only on the natural world and doesn’t draw conclusions regarding the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Therefore, ideas regarding supernatural existence are philosophical and not scientific.
When you say that religion doesn´t have the claim to give scientific proofs, it is important to note that the burden of proof lies upon the one making the claim regardless of whether the claim is pertaining to the natural or supernatural. While it is not expected of you to present scientific evidence for supernatural claims, you still need to present some other form of evidence to justify belief in your claims. Appealing to faith doesn't justify claims since it's useless in demonstrating what is true or likely to be true. What type of God would expect us to have faith instead of presenting evidence? This is absurd.
Testing ideas with evidence allows us to build scientific arguments. A scientific argument is an evidence-based line of reasoning. It is a logical description of what we think and why we think it. The three basic components of scientific arguments are ideas (hypotheses or theories), expectations produced by those ideas (predictions) and actual observations relevant to those expectations (the evidence). If an idea produces expectations that are actually observed, then the idea is more likely to be accurate. If an idea produces expectations that are not observed, then scientists are less likely to accept the idea. Scientific arguments work the same way even when we are investigating the past. When investigating the past, we try to figure out what we would expect to observe in the present if a specific event had happened in the past.
The idea of a global flood about 4500 years ago is falsifiable (www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html ). Interestingly, Man Hee Lee taught many years ago that it was a global flood, but in many of the overseas regions they now teach that it's a regional flood. Your statement about travelling back to see if the great flood happened makes it seem like you don't really understand how science works. Furthermore, I think there is good reason to be skeptical of the idea that Jesus resurrected (ruclips.net/video/GHJE7cetkB4/видео.html ). It's surprising what you can find with an open mind.
It appears that you don't really have any sound or cogent arguments and evidence for your beliefs but expect people to wait until something mystical happens. That sounds to me like many other people from other religions. Blindly accepting claims and making decisions as if they were true in the hope that the god we believe in exists and will reward our efforts can result in harmful behavior that produces unnecessary suffering. To some of us, it’s not worth sacrificing the only life that we know we have for something that is not based on good evidence and reason. Rather, we focus on trying to live a good life and leave a positive legacy for others.
Thanks for sharing, always good to hear ex members finding the truth and moving on.
Hi 👋 I have been recruited for the Equipped course here in Cape Town.
How do they typically respond to someone who has a child outside of wedlock when starting the course?
I can already feel the pressure when things get hectic with my one year old and I ask to do the online class.
Hello 😎👋
They tend to not have issues with people who had children out of wedlock before SCJ. They do however have issues with people who get pregnant out of wedlock while in SCJ.
When I was there, if you got pregnant out of wedlock, they either forced you to get married to the person or have an abortion. If it was with an outsider and the outsider was not deemed worthy to be recruited then you would have been told to either get an abortion or face expulsion.
@SCJSkeptic I'm still relatively new with the course, so I haven't seen or experienced much, but this is the 2nd time I have approached by a cult in CPT. I moved here last year, August. My work colleague referred me to the course, and when I asked her about everything I had read and seen, she dodged answering. She's just acting normally like it's nothing where a normal person would show interest or at least want to know what's being said.
@@SCJSkeptic I have not experienced this as a member :/ i am looking into things said online but honestly everything they’ve taught is very logical and makes a lot of sense. Breaking down the Bible and it seems accurate, no other teaching has made sense really other than this in terms of the scriptures….It’s just the “culture” I’m having a hard time with like some of the stuff they say you have to do like the speaking some things in Korean or just like the ignore your feelings and don’t tell people about the study until we say you can and stuff ???? I don’t know. I haven’t experienced any like abuse or anything like that… and actually they say never get an abortion bc God values life. So I don’t believe that whoever told you that is their doctrine? I can’t believe that
@@HeyTripleJ Note that something making sense has no bearing on whether it's true. This might be counter intuitive to some people, but it's one of the things we have learned throughout human history. We can't understand the world by simply thinking about it, we have to go out and investigate things in a systematic way. This is why science is based on systematic empiricism. It helps us to combat our natural tendency for wishful thinking and a confirmation bias. If you study some logic and epistemology it becomes rather obvious that there is no evidence for any of SCJ's supernatural claims.
Note that they don't have official doctrine on abortion. I didn't try to imply that. Abortion is quite common in SCJ in various tribes even long after I left. SCJ is quite united on their major doctrines that are often taught in the sermons. However, they are also rather divided on topics like abortion, evolution, capital punishment and whether Noah's flood was global or regional.
Thanks for sharing your story. When I hear things like this, I often wonder to myself what it is or where the need comes from to "believe" in something? I am not posing this as some atheist view in any way. It always just confuses me as to why is it that one has to believe? I mean believing is such an absolute way of being and leaves little to no room for just experiencing things how they are. It's like everything needs to be put through a lens or be interpreted first to be experienced when if one really looks at it, life itself does not operate like this at all. I am not saying that if one is a believer that they are wrong, I am just saying it is a handicap of sorts because as soon as you believe in something, you have laid down a threshold that will only serve as a comforter and never allow for a real journey to find one's truth. Not sure if my ramblings made sense, but thanks again for your story.
Thanks for your comment.
Struggling to make sense of our existence is a completely natural thing that we go through in life. When we suffer, we often wonder if our lives have value, and if so, where does this value come from? We often struggle to have clarity on how we can live our lives with a sense of purpose where we feel that we matter and that we are making a difference in the world. The world can appear to be a very scary and confusing place. It can be very difficult to learn to deal with the harshness and uncertainty that comes from trying to see reality as it actually is.
We tend to assume that everything happens for a reason (for an intended purpose), that we are part of some bigger plan, and that the universe has been designed by some higher power with an intended purpose (arise from our hypersensitivity towards detecting patterns and agency). However, what we discovered through science (cosmology, biology, and psychology) seem to suggest otherwise. As far as we know, the universe has no intended purpose. Living things evolved a sense of purpose that aids their survival and reproduction (natural and unguided process). A sense of purpose (being goal driven) can be found within both unconscious and conscious living things. Purpose became more refined as some living things evolved consciousness (from mechanistic detection, learning and memory to complex nervous systems). For humans, purpose has become increasingly complex through cultural evolution.
Our sense of purpose is not dependent on the universe being designed for an intended purpose nor is it dependent on our immortality. Therefore, while there is no purpose of life, we can create purpose in life. People can and do care about each other, even if the universe doesn’t.
While a scientific worldview is not as comforting as the ancient stories we have been telling ourselves about a universe that is designed with an intended purpose, it is also not nihilistic as many expect it to be. The scientific view of an unguided universe can still be inspiring and foundational to building a better society.
Note that I find the concept of each person having their "own truth" to be flawed and fundamentally divisive. It's called subjectivism in epistemology.
I left their Bible study after 5months! Thanks for sharing your story!! What a ridiculous and grievous organization 🤧🙏🏾
I am weak in english. Can anyone explain the main problems in Shincheonji shortly in simple English? Pls. Also i stuck there
My English is also not very good :) But I will try to explain, what I find problematic.
I was a SCJ member for a decade. At that time, the interpretation of the parables and the physical fulfillment of the Revelation in reality made sense to me.
But then I noticed how they kept adapting and changing the doctrine.
If you are in SCJ, try to figure out how the order of fulfillment was taught in the past and today, and if these contradictions can be reconciled.
For example, they taught that there was the judgment in Rev 6 and "after this" (in Rev 7:1) 144,000 people would be sealed (12,000 from each tribe) who are supposed to reign as kings and priests, and that "after this" (after the sealing) the great tribulation would happen and the great white multitude would be created. The focus was placed on this sequence, according to the words "after this".
Then, when Covid-19 came, it was taught that the great tribulation is taking place and this was supposedly evidence that the 144,000 have already been sealed.
But at the time the great tribulation was declared, not every tribe had even 12,000 members. How can this be? To this day, almost 4 years later, they say, only God knows who the 144.000 are...
And they changed their doctrine...
There is a video of SCJ Skeptic about the issue of Rev 7. (I recommend you to watch it, he explains it much clearer, than I ever could :))
ruclips.net/video/qgNUJA3o5Co/видео.htmlfeature=shared
There are many other things in the doctrine that have been changed. You can find much more in other videos on this channel and on RUclips or on Reddit.
Interestingly, the chairman of SCJ was himself in at least 2 different religious groups before founding Shincheonji. And these groups had a very similar interpretation of scripture. Maybe it will help you to look at the chairman's biography? It seems he took these teachings, combined them and added some more things to it.
And Man Hee Lee wrote several books. So, when you compare the content of the books to the current teaching, there are contradictions.
But apart from these contradictions and changes in doctrine, it makes sense to look at whether the predictions have actually been fulfilled or whether they are not being read into the Bible through a hindsight bias. SCJ Skeptic has also made a video about this:
ruclips.net/video/7PmdYPpkHTQ/видео.htmlfeature=shared
There are also some problems with the "fulfilled reality". It seems, not all evidence, that SCJ uses, is correct.
Another issue is, when I started the center class back then 10 years ago, it was taught that Rev had already been fulfilled up to chapter 18 and we are already at the beginning of the fulfillment of chapter 19. Nowadays it is taught that Rev has only been fulfilled up to chapter 17 and chapter 18 is still to come.
How can the testified fulfillment change a few years later? They keep changing their doctrine....
While I was in SCJ, we were told to just believe and not research on the internet etc. So I didn't do that for years. I knew nothing about critical thinking, so it took me a long time to realize that the SCJ has a confirmation bias. I didn't know what an echo chamber was. Nor did I know that the tactics SCJ uses are problematic.
I would like to encourage you to also engage in critical thinking in order to recognize some things in SCJ more clearly. Best wishes.
I stayed in scj for a year because I was afraid to lose my girlfriend who introduced me to the Bible study but hide from me that she was a member of scj, but at the end I couldn't take it anymore so I decided to leave and yes we broke up after that
This just happened to me in the past couple of weeks. We ended up breaking up this week.
Thank you for this video and having the courage to speak out against SCJ. What are the names of the books you have mentioned? I'm an avid reader, and would love to check them out.
Thanks for your support and encouragement. I am also an avid reader :)
You are actually bringing up a good point with your comment. I will add references to resources in my videos from now on.
www.criticalthinking.org/store/
rowman.com/ (other online store that sells their books)
I would suggest to read them in this order:
1. The Miniature Guide to Critical Thinking Concepts & Tools
2. Thinker's Guide to the Human Mind: Thinking, Feeling, Wanting, and the Problem of Irrationality
3. The Thinker's Guide to Fallacies: The Art of Mental Trickery and Manipulation
4. The Thinker's Guide to Socratic Questioning
5. The Thinker's Guide to Ethical Reasoning
6. Fact over Fake: A Critical Thinker's Guide to Media Bias and Political Propaganda
There are many other books as well but I would say that these contain the basics.
Hello, I came across your video from Reddit. Would there be a way to get in touch with you? I have been in SCJ for more than 5 years and am one of those who stay out of fear. I notice how much they have really changed the doctrine and constant gaslighting is done to cover it up. Jesus even said “you will know them by their fruits” and when you shine a light to the truth the upper workers scurry away like darkness as you have experienced. They have changed the doctrine in Rev 7 clearly as you say, then they are guilty of adding to the Word of Revelation and cannot enter heaven according to their own doctrine. Please if there would be a way to get in touch it would be most appreciated. If this is not possible then I understand and thank you for your video.
Hello Max :)
Please feel free to contact me on shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com
Please send more videos, Laurie🙏🙏.
Goeie video my broer. Het dit geniet.
Dankie ou maat. Dis tyd om te bekeer ou beer haha
I can’t find the gmail account 😢can you please share it in comment?
I really need to talk to you about scj
shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com
@@SCJSkeptic i emailed you:)
Hey Laurie!
Did you see my email?
@@Mims-k7b I did yes
I’m so sorry things turned out like this 😭 but eventually you left because you started to believe in the words of gentille instead of the word of God. Anyone believes in God’s word and his promise, and understand the will of God will never left scj. But those who won’t change their mind and wants to do whatever they want instead do the will of God will leave. I sincerely hope people can know scj through the word of God, not someone who lost his way.🙏 All glory to God. And I pray for your soul.🙏
You are merely labelling things without providing actual evidence. That is rather irrational. The concept of "chosen people vs gentiles" presupposes the existence of a theistic God. Demonstrate it first before assuming it.
You need to educate yourself and escape from your echo chamber. You are continuously assuming that you possess the absolute truth. This is intellectual arrogance. You refer to people who won't change their mind. Who said that I won't change my mind? I'm not a cynic but rather I'm a skeptic.
You are assuming that your way of living is the only right way to live. That is monumentally self-righteous.
Instead of praying for me, rather construct a sound or cogent argument based on evidence. What evidence do you have for the existence of the God you believe in?
@@SCJSkeptic oh yes sorry what was I thinking you don’t believe in God. I just hope those who believe in God won’t be misleading.🙏
@@annaliu6549 what are you saying? You are again assuming that your perspective is correct and mine is misleading. How did you confirm this?
@@SCJSkeptic At this point, I think that both of you have a perspective, opposing perspectives that is. I think that WE should ALL respect each other's viewpoints. What SS is saying isn't the truth, its his opinion, and what Anna Liu is saying isn't truth, its her opinion. Let each other be mannn
@@mishomphela3814 I dont think its rational to respect a viewpoint that is based on unsupported assertions, assumptions and logical fallacies.
The burden of proof lies upon the person making the claim. I simply demanded evidence for claims.
Your comment makes little sense since I didn't try to state any facts or make any claims.
I need help convincing my daughter that they are deceivers and manipulators what can I do or say to help her understand?
This article gives great advice:
The Definitive Guide to Helping People Trapped in a Cult | Psychology Today
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202104/the-definitive-guide-helping-people-trapped-in-cult
I am feeling guilty to leave because I have just passover…. please help huhuhu… i know they will see me now as a betrayer
@@curiouschristian-y7f what does it mean to passover?
I feel like people don’t understand the true essence of God or my God (aka the God of the living) that’s how it turns into things like this, God is patient, kind, loving, etc. his burden is light and he is a source of unconditional love. God says when he will return no one will know, nor does it even matter which is what a lot of people dont realize now. They are so worried about crossing over, the fulfillment, whatever. That they forget what we are supposed to do, love God with our whole being and love others the same. God will come when he does and hopefully when he does he sees you (anyone reading this) putting him first and loving others and staying close to your Bible so you can constantly be reminded how you should love others (and what not to do) I loved SCJ because they gave me a love for the Bible. Luckily I didn’t get too involved before finding out this knowledge when they found me I didn’t know what I was getting involved in. I had no names and because they were so loving I didn’t ask questions. Glad God delivered me from that. I’m sorry you had to go through that, truly this made me cry. I know God is real mostly because I used to be a psychic medium. I started communicating with “spirits as a young child” and when I did my readings I would always tell people to not give me any information but a name. The experiences I had were out of this world. The “” that I felt in real time were absolutely insane. Stuff science can not explain. The knowledge I got from thin air was weird. Supernatural is the only way to explain it. When I found Jesus all of these spirits I seen my whole life (walking around and communicating with me all different ppls family members) LEFT I never seen them again. So if I was schizo (which I could accept) doesn’t explain how I was right and how they all left. In a day after me being tormented for years. Idk. Gods plan is for us all to be saved…so we’re gonna be here a while. 😫🥱🥱🥱
If you possible, make more videos on Shinecheonji group, tell me your details and personal experiences please Sir
I have made many videos. Check out the other videos on my channel
11 years wayback when I heard this group from my aunties who up to this present (2024 ) are actively member plus two of my cousins from USA. Fast forward 2019 before pandemic in due respect to my auntie I attended the zoom class but I didnt finish because I knew fr the very beginning, I just want to address my doubts.
Now I'm having conflict with my two loving aunties because this SCJ changed them into BIG LIARS
Thank you for sharing your story. I have a close friend who has been in SCJ for a similar length on time who I am always hoping will leave one day. Can I ask, how were you supported financially whilst you were in SCJ?
It would be really helpful if you have any advice on how to gently encourage members to question their beliefs- or maybe it's not possible and people have to find their own paths to leave?
Hello Bella 😄👋
I was supported by the church and by my mother who was also in SCJ. I never really struggled financially but I know that many other full time workers did struggle financially.
Here is a nice article about changing minds (www.bakadesuyo.com/2019/12/change-someones-mind/).
I think it's important to teach regarding how to think and not merely what to think. This is how we can empower people to regain their intellectual autonomy. I try to use common values as a basis of conversations. SCJ values their group identity over facts. This makes it difficult to converse with them.
Great video; great story. Thanks
I left that cult 2 years ago. Stay faithful brothers and sisters. 🙏🏽 Repent.
The leader had said that everyone should marry their own kind so that there would be no cultural clashes and marital problems.
Yes that's a good example of racism and ignorance of social science.
Truth will remain truth.
Yes I agree with your tautology 😄
@@SCJSkeptic haha😅 ... I mean I believe that God is truth.. no matter what the different interpretations are .... currently receiving the SCJ bible lessons.. being confused and thinking of leaving...
I will admit that I'm not that intelligent and do not trust my own understanding. However, I will keep my faith because He is faithful.
@@jennylynmagno8299 all the best with your journey 😁
@@SCJSkeptic I also genuinely wish you the best! What I hope for people who left SCJ is to not totally close their hearts. Thank you for your video!💞
@@jennylynmagno8299 I focus a lot on promoting open mindedness. So my heart is more open than ever before.
Hey Laurie, I was wondering, have you ever thought that maybe although some people may be faulty it may just be that eventually they would be revealed as being the Mt 25 goats ? Jesus taught not to stumble on account of people.
Yes I believed that up until I stopped believing in the bible. That's ultimately why I left.
I am convinced that Jesus existed as a historical figure and was crucified. However, I am not convinced that he was a messiah or that he resurrected. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There are only Christian writings that claim that Jesus was divine. The other writings like Josephus and Tacitus merely state what other people believed at that time. It's strange how one of the supposed most important events in history have no independent confirmation.
But that's where FAITH comes in... if there was clear cut evidence don't you think the whole world would believe? And this would no longer be according to the Bible as the prophecies are meant to be fulfilled
@@riaalmeida6228 The problem with your reasoning is that appealing to faith could justify belief in imaginary things and contradictory things. It could also justify belief in different gods. This method of thinking has divided people a lot throughout history and caused a lot of harm. Faith is not a reliable pathway to truth. I care about whether my beliefs correspond with reality or not. We should ideally question our fundamental assumptions so that we don't create our own subjective truth and reality.
I fundamentally disagree with your statement about if there was clear cut evidence that the whole world would believe. This is obviously not the case. For example, we have clear evidence for the big bang (cosmic microwave background radiation and expansion) and evolution (anatomy, molecular biology, biogeography and fossils) yet many people reject it because it opposes their religious presuppositions. There are even many people who believe the earth is 6000 years old despite clear evidence (radiometric dating of zircon crystals).
If you are Christian, you needed to check into the Bible and what the Bible says, because Bible is our standard, the truth is that the Question and Answer are from the Bible. If you say shincheonji is untruth show as according to the Bible, what the Bible says? . Don't explaining your feelings or experiences but explain what Bible says and what shincheonji wrongly according to the Bible.
The Bible tells us to be careful and to check into the Bible every word we hear so as we can not deceived, Love your spirit don't let it die by untruth words or by persecution from the deceiver
Did you watch the video to the end? I explicitly stated that I am not religious anymore in the video.
Reality is my standard of truth not some ancient book. How did you verify factually that historical events like Noah's flood, the Israelite exodus and Jesus' resurrection actually happened?
I made a video on their Revelation 7 doctrine. Perhaps you can respond to that.
I don't have a spirit and neither do you. Brain laterization in split brain patients provide good evidence that we don't have a spirit. Belief in a spirit is an ancient myth that uneducated people like yourself still believe.
There are also Christian arguments against SCJ.
Look into false prophets and their behavior (2 Peter 2, Matthew 7:15-23)
Not allowed to use deception to bring others to God (Roman's 3:7-8, Matthew 5:37, 2nd Corinthians 4:2).
And when a prophet / messenger claims to speak on behalf of God and when his word doesn't come to fruition, not to fear him (Dt 18:20-22). Please refer to the failed and updated prophecy of Revelation 7; the Great Tribulation began before the sealing of the 12 Tribes, so your group had to update the interpretation.
I disagree. Im in shincheonji. If you fail to cater to someone’s emotional needs you are not following your duty properly. I may be new and you could say “stuck” in shincheonji but the experience is giving me a lot of knowledge
Hey would you have some references for the different critical thinking books or sites you were mentioning around 12:23
Please check in the description of the video. I added it there 😎👍
While the books can be quite expensive and long, a very good alternative is the following website:
thinkingispower.com/foundations-in-critical-thinking/
Imagine Jesus asking people to write exams😳 That in itself is a RED FLAG! Glad you left!!!
Why?
Have you watched this interview of Kim Nam Hee and what happened while she was married to LMH, her experiences and even proof of letters and recordings...I just want to know if SCJ ever mentioned her to you while you were there and what was said.
ruclips.net/video/iPZ-rYZRePc/видео.html
It's shocking.
Hello there 😀
I have watched it yes.
In SCJ we were told that she became arrogant and greedy, stole money from the church, created her own sect, taught false doctrine and became a persecutor. We were never given her side of the story. When people asked questions about further details there would be simple deflection by changing the topic to how much Man Hee Lee is suffering because the one he loves has betrayed. We were told to rather focus on understanding his heart than asking unnecessary questions.
@@SCJSkeptic that's messed up really!
There's no way she could have made up all of those recordings, we can hear it's LMH voice himself. There's just too much going on.
@@SCJSkeptic what about Mr Oh(the beast) has he commented anything about the claims made by MHL? I heard he is still alive.
@@anonymousone6922 That's a very interesting question. Unfortunately, I honestly don't know. I have a video where Mr. Oh speaks about the 7 messengers but I have never heard him speaking about Man Hee Lee.
@@SCJSkeptic that's strange, I mean he should be defending himself since he can see LMH still continues with his testimony, and according to what we learn this guy is responsible for the biggest destruction of many things.
If I understand correctly, you no longer believe in God but in science. What gives me hope in God is the magnitude we observe in nature: from the weakest to the strongest winds, the smallest to the largest earthquakes, the tiniest to the biggest leaves, and the smallest to the largest stars in the universe. One thing can vary greatly in scale. I believe that conscience is included in that "magnitude." I believe there must be someone with a more intelligent, more loving, and wiser conscience than all of humanity combined, beyond our comprehension
I am no longer convinced of supernatural existence or causation since there are no sound or cogent arguments for it nor are there any reliable methods to confirm it.
Science provides us with information that is consistently more reliable and useful than any other method that has ever been developed.
I addressed some topics regarding science and religion in a few recent reaction videos I made.
It's titled "Shincheonji Reactions (Science and Religion Part 1 / 2 / 3)"
@@SCJSkeptic Thank you I'll watch it
As you are doing everything get to know that the scriptures have to be fulfilled to, Jude 1:10
Jude 1:10 mentions slander. How am I slandering anyone? Slander is based on factually incorrect information. Name one thing I said that is factually incorrect.
Furthermore, Jude 1:10 mentions irrationality. I think SCJ supernatural claims are irrational since all their arguments are fallacious. Present one sound or cogent argument for any of their supernatural claims.
Thank you for your testimony! SJC is heretical
Why does everyone at New heaven new earth say “things like this?”
Haha great question! I think a lot of us learned new mannerisms from Korean leaders in our regions. It's a common mannerism amongst Korean people who speak english.
Ahh understood, Thanks for the response!
can you please explain the concept of “new John?”
@@WorshipWithAdhi Check out this link about the concept of New John.
www.reddit.com/r/Shincheonji/comments/u26uvs/how_scj_explains_the_concept_of_the_new_john/?
Mathew 7:6 . Let me hope you can understand and see (John 10:35 => Scriptures cann't be broken ).
Matthew 7:6 is merely a label and doesn't mean much within itself. It could essentially be used as a label towards anyone that doesn't agree with your interpretation of the bible. It gets us nowhere.
@@SCJSkeptic please be comfortable to your distiny . I know when you relax and remember your first love , you cry . For I that you cannot be deceived in the Bible of the knowledge you got from SCJ . Anyway nothing good can comeout a person who loves darkness and more so those who tested light / life and truth . ( It would have been better not to know the way of truth than to know and leave it ) . Let me hope you know how many spirits are in you now
@@SCJSkeptic It is so heartbreaking that you were not sealed much and that the little spirit of God (Jn 6:63) left and you have started blaspheming the hoy spirit . You said Jn 10:35 that God fulfills but now you are saying that He failed . So , are you blaming SCJ or GOD ? Anyway check all those siding with you they all betrayed but since Jesus is the one who Harvests by sending Angels (Mt 24:31 , Rv 14:14-16) , These Angels have to remove those who did not qualify to be in the Kingdom TTT NHNE N Jerusalm . So , you and them you are removed outside verysoon you will ganish .
@@mcjam-ilu1043 Haha you are just making stuff up. When have I ever cried about my "first love"? You keep labelling me as deceived but have not demonstrated specifically what falsehood I am expressing. You also assume that you possess "the truth" without providing any justification or supporting evidence.
As far as I know, I don't have any spirits inside of me. Brain laterization in split brain patients gives us good reason to reject the idea of people having spirits. Furthermore, we don't have any evidence whatsoever that any spirits even exist. Can you perhaps provide actual evidence for this? (not anecdotes or assertions)
@@mcjam-ilu1043 If you want me to repent then change my mind through providing a sound or cogent counter argument. I am not blaming God. This makes little sense to me since I am not even convinced that such a thing as a god exists. Can you demonstrate supernatural existence and causation?
What evidence do you have that actual angels are harvesting people to SCJ and removing those who do not qualify? People leave religious organizations when they change their minds. There is no supernatural agents needed for such a transition. Any religious organization can claim that the angels removed those who didn't meet the qualification of that organization when they decide to leave the organization. It's an unfalsifiable proposition. It's like playing tennis without the net.
I think you should ask God to help you with your grammar. Your language usage is horrific haha.
it happens when misleading, you don’t belive what God’s says.. God is spirit.. true encounter in Jesus Christ in spirit, not in religion..
What evidence do you have that such a thing as "spirit" exists?
When I use the word "religion", I am referring to belief in and/or worship of the supernatural. I don't make the distinction you make since it seems like special pleading to me.
@@SCJSkeptic that’s it because you have to encounter personally, relationship between you and God, Hebrew 11:6.. believing and have faith in him to wxperience him.. just like any other believer, me also and apostle Paul.. when he encounter Jesus
@@greceramos6069So I have to believe first and then I will see what you see? That's a pathway to self-deception based on a confirmation bias. I prefer empirical evidence gathered in a systematic way instead of anecdotal evidence. I think your statement shows that you are gullible and overconfident in your personal experiences.
thinkingispower.com/four-ways-your-personal-experiences-can-lead-you-astray/
Laurie have you any proofs, that you are realy a instruktor in the church in the past?
Yeah I have pictures and videos of me teaching the SCJ center course. I also have church pictures of me with the church in Namibia.
Note that my affiliation with SCJ has no bearing on the truthfulness or validity of my arguments. If someone asserts that then they are committing an ad hominem fallacy.
So what were you teaching other people you as an instructor,
I taught them about the doctrine of SCJ. Its fundamentally about how the reality of the new testament prophecies is Man Hee Lee and Shincheonji.
I've seen a lot of cult's, like this...lead by Self proclaimed " Gods/Masters"...ie Jim Jones, Rev. Moon ...etc ..usually ends in disaster....
Thank god you left
I owe my thanks to other people who have provided educational content that help me be free from my former unjustified views.
By their fruit you will recognise them. :)
Jesus:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
Mt 7,15
Paul:
"Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God."
2.Co 4,2
"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
2.Co 11,14
Peter:
"And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
2.Pt 2,3
Hello there 😁
Can you specify what you mean?
Many people use these verses to label other people as deceived. The verses by itself bears little explanatory power since it mostly contain labels.
@@SCJSkeptic
In Mt 7,15-23 Jesus argues that there will be false prophets who appear Christian or claim they are Christians but don't do Christian deeds. Like advocating abortions 3:10 yeah it's a heavily debated topic among churches... but usually churches rather forbid abortions instead of enforcing them.
In Mt 7,16 "You will recognize them by their fruits..." Christian communities or Churches are usually like second families where people trust each other and strengthen each other, especially during bad times. But Shincheonji calls it a negative factor if A) you are pregnant or B) you have plans to move location or C) you are about to marry.
In 2.Co 4,2 Paul tells the Corinthians to preach the gospel in truth and don't use dirty tricks. Here in Germany (some?) Shincheonji members don't approach directly, but they rather use false pretences to trick people into their Bible courses with things like Christian flirting apps or university projects.
(Source: watch?v=F0WxOE3bUh8 )
In 2.Co 11,14 Paul says that the evil is not scared of masking as the good guys.
In 2.Pt 2,3 Peter says that they (false teachers) only want your best: your money.
-------------------------
Bro, yesterday I didn't even know they deny the trinity, so here is another one:
"""Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also."""
1.John 2,22-23
There might be some differences between Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, Lutheran, Methodists, Anglicanisms or Pentecostalism. But this is something where everyone comes together. Even atheist theologians agree that the Bible teaches that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit is god.
Well, maybe except one organisation: Jehovah's Witnesses ^.^
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
@@Quisl cool man. Thanks for the response
Thank you for this video. Could I just ask about where you are now in your faith, are you still a Christian? 🙏🏽
Hello 😎
I am no longer a Christian. As stated in my video, I left SCJ as a result of my deconversion. I am now an agnostic atheist.
www.learnreligions.com/agnostic-atheist-dictionary-definition-247755
Hope you come back to Christ. The one and true God. I too was in a SCJ for a year before learning about Lee man hee.
I'm a skeptic. Unsupported assertions and wishful thinking carries little weight here.
Thanks for sharing mate
The Kingdom of God is coming soon .With or without us Gods will be accomplished. The word of God just cleanses us from sin lets not act according to our own undestanding.
People have been saying that the kingdom of god is "coming soon" for about 2000 years now. We are still waiting for this unsupported assertion to be demonstrated with evidence. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You are merely engaging in wishful thinking.
I am not convinced that the will of any gods have ever been fulfilled. I addressed this in a video I made (ruclips.net/video/ewBWBzArn7w/видео.html).
Can you prove anything that you said with evidence? Can you prove that the kingdom of god exists and is coming soon? Can you prove that your god exists and that his will has ever been accomplished? Can you prove that the bible is the word of your god? Can you prove that there is such a thing as sin that we need to be cleansed from? Can you prove that you are acting according to the understanding of your god instead of merely according to your own understanding of a book?
@@SCJSkeptic life of faith is not a forced life you can decide what you want but with or with out the work of God will be accomplished But you said is not what is taught in Schinjeonji. Coz promotion of world peace is one of the goals of shinjeonji.
God bless you.
@@nabatanzijosephine2205 I would say there is an element of coercion behind it because of the threat of eternal punishment for not being convinced of the claims.
You keep asserting that your god's work will be accomplished but provide no evidence for the claim. Furthermore, you didnt answer any of my questions.
SCJ's concept of world peace is based on converting people to SCJ's teachings using unethical tactics. They have hidden motives that they dont reveal to people who participate in their events. I worked for HWPL and understand it very well. Beyond merely uniting people physically, SCJ believes that all people must belong to SCJ, believe in their doctrine and submit to their rules in order to stop the spiritual war between god and satan. I support world peace but I am against HWPL's work because it causes division and results in a delusional worldview. Its a good example of egocentrism and sociocentrism.
All the supernatural claims of SCJ are unjustified and fallacious. This is why I demand evidence but SCJ people keep avoiding my questions.
@@SCJSkeptic Even people at time of Noarh didnt belive that just a mere ark could be the only way yo survive No one is forced to join and freely you left so just have peace brother .but dont speak ill about it you need evidence the word is evidence its not physical but spiritual evidence just enjoy your life dear but dont spread hate. We are one.
@@nabatanzijosephine2205 do you have any evidence that Noah's ark even existed? I believe in things based on evidence not mere spiritual stories. People are manipulated to join SCJ and indoctrinated in the center course. There is no informed consent and the students are not given sufficient information to discern for themselves. The bible contains claims not evidence. We need empirical evidence to confirm the claims in the bible.
If someone makes claims from another religious text, would you not demand evidence for their claims? Would mere anecdotes be sufficient to convince you of extraordinary claims? You come across as someone that has never studied logic or epistemology but merely conformed to the cultures around you.
I am spreading the love of truth and rationality because I actually care about what is true and I care about human well being.
We are not one. You live in your own fairytale world and support irrationality and unethical tactics. It's insulting to human intelligence and dignity.
7 years before the penny dropped.
Jip 🤣
Laurie, why did it take you 7 years in order for you to realise that it is a cult?
I’m sure some of your students are still there and believing in the doctrine of Shincheonji.
Why are you so bitter, what did you disagree with? I feel like you were wronged by someone in the church, not because of the doctrine. Your arguments are valid. But why are you spending so much time uploading content. Are you healing? I’m so curious.
It took me a long time to get an education in logic, epistemology, ethics, metaphysics, psychology, cosmology and biology. I left primarily because all of SCJ's supernatural claims are based on fallacious arguments and not supported by evidence. Furthermore, I realized that their tactics are unethical and causes serious harm to people. I sincerely believed in their doctrine in the past but realized that I was mistaken. Many of my former students are still there yes. I am open to talking to any of them if they want to.
I made this video to explain my issues with SCJ's prophecy doctrine (ruclips.net/video/ewBWBzArn7w/видео.html). I was wronged by people in SCJ but I don't consider this to be a good reason by itself to leave SCJ. We are wronged by people in life regardless of the truthfulness of their claims or the groups they belong to. I am curious where your feeling comes from that I didn't leave for epistemic reasons?
I haven undertaken an ethical obligation upon myself to spread awareness about SCJ. I think this form of criticism is essential to empower people to discern for themselves since I don't think SCJ gives people sufficient information to discern for themselves when they are being recruited. I wasn't really hurt that much by SCJ as many other people have been. However, I find great purpose on educating people to think more critically about SCJ. I think that the work I do is necessary for creating a better world.
He is not bitter. He just has enough conscious to warn other people from this destructive cult. He is serving the people and not done narcessistic guru anymore.
It also took me 8+ years to leave. This religion took nearly a decade of our lives with lies.
I specifically remember catching someone filming women in the bathroom in LA.
I reported him to leadership. They did nothing but hid it to protect the reputation of the church
@@RealChrisSean do you mean you are in SCJ for 8 yrs then left? If I may ask,what is the reason you left?
@@ameliabarbado9887 I was training to become a pastor before joining. The hardest thing for me to accept was when they taught that their founder would never die and live forever.
So the moment they started sharing that he could and would eventually die was when I began doubting them. BTW this was 6-7 years into SCJ.
I lost most of my 20s due to SCJ that I will never get back but fortunately life couldn’t be better for me now.
I'm a Korean scj member and I'd like to say it is unfortunate that you have started to grow your own skeptical reasoning based on multiple sources such as science, psychology, linguistics, etc all being mixed. Aside from the faith of scj, the general concept of believing in God-like Christianity requires people to have such an "imaginary" faith-based system. Of course, as you said, some have been proven by scientific methods(relics, DNA, etc) and many others haven't yet. But it doesn't mean it can be justified to deny the whole system of Christianity. I believe you've already solidified your own thought process on how to view and interpret your past scj experiences and things like a deity, biblical evidence, and historical and scientific accounts, so I don't want to argue with you in terms of the correctness of the Word. However, for me, it's heartbroken that there's a chance that you'll be nitpicking every bad thing solely coming from your personal feeling and thought, trying to justify your every argument with criticism of scj. Actually, it's not odd considering people like ex-Mormons or ex-Catholics also criticize their past beliefs and community to gain momentum.
Why is it unfortunate that I have embraced skepticism? You keep making assertions but provide no explanation or evidence for them.
The supernatural claims of Christianity are either unjustified or factually incorrect. This makes it reasonable to tentatively reject it and remain unconvinced until sufficient evidence is provided. Perhaps you can try to demonstrate supernatural existence and causation. This shouldn't be too hard for someone who possesses "the truth".
Why are you so afraid of criticism? It's essential for the pursuit of truth and understanding. How am I nitpicking? What unnecessary and unjustified criticism have I given about SCJ?
Saying that my criticism comes from my own thoughts and feelings is a weird thing to say. No shit sherlock. All written or verbal communication comes from the thoughts and feelings of the person who is communicating. The question we should ask ourselves, are those thoughts and feelings rational or irrational?
I was raised Catholic but don't follow the belief anymore and still I can spend time with my Catholic friends and even have a debate about religion. Critical thinking should be embraced and not shut down by anyone
The claims he is making is scary. I doubt the doctor and they told me I had to take the class over again.
You dont understand kingdom of God
Your statement has basically zero explanatory power. How can any rational person change their mind based on what you said?
Can you present good reasoning and evidence for the existence of this "kingdom of God" and explain what I misrepresented.
I feel sorry for
For me? 🤣
yes
@@evrardkasandra6642 Why? My life is great!
are you in the scj mob ?
you leave from a lack of evidence of the existence of a god, thinking that science and logic is a better path. the basis of science is flawed, it cant tell you who created everything. in fact everything came from nothing as it would suggest in the big bang, well it was from hot gasses,etc. but how did those elements come about? then logic left the building. its good that you make your own choices and that you have done what you think is right. but science and religion work hand in hand, one without the other will never make sense.
I disagree with what you stated. Most of what you said is just plain wrong. You don't understand what science and logic is and how it works.
Science is a process of acquiring knowledge of the natural world (scientific process), the body of knowledge acquired through that process (scientific knowledge), and the community of people who follow that process (scientific community). Science is different from other ways of acquiring knowledge because of the way it is done (the scientific method). Science is done systematically in a planned, controlled, organized and repeatable way. Science is fundamentally about testing scientific ideas against reality by comparing it to empirical evidence gathered from the natural world.
Science is based on the foundation of logic and mathematics. Logic is the study of reasoning. Mathematics is the study of patterns and the relationships between numbers and shapes. Logic clarifies ideas and mathematics quantifies ideas.
Science is the best way to acquire knowledge (note that since there are limitations to science, we also need to depend on other ways to acquire knowledge). The evidence that science is the best way to acquire knowledge is the effective results that it has produced (development and implementation of technology).
Science investigates the natural (physical) while religion deals with the supernatural (spiritual). Therefore, the two can be compatible under certain circumstances. Accepting a scientific worldview doesn’t necessarily require us to give up religion. However, problems can arise when religion makes claims about the natural world that is incompatible with science or claims about the supernatural that contain logical contradictions.
We should not merely seek for the supernatural since this can make us try to match reality with our expectations, rather we should try to seek for truth and the best possible understanding of reality regardless of whether anything supernatural exists or not. We cannot test supernatural existence with science since it focuses only on the natural world and doesn’t draw conclusions regarding the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Therefore, ideas regarding supernatural existence are philosophical and not scientific.
We don’t have any examples of the supernatural manifesting in reality in a detectable way based on empirical evidence (experimentation or observation) gathered in a systematic way. All we have is anecdotal evidence (personal testimonies) and hearsay evidence (personal testimonies of others) about people’s supernatural experiences gathered in a non-systematic way.
Science doesn't make unjustified assumptions about the cause of existence without evidence as religion tends to do. Science makes sense of the world without the need for religion to make stuff up. If there are things we don't know, then we can just say we don't know without having to make up supernatural stories.
Throughout history we have seen how people have come up with supernatural explanations for mysterious events because of their ignorance and how those explanations were later replaced by natural explanations because of the knowledge we acquired through science. Because of our need for certainty, we like to come up with explanations for everything, identify or create patterns for everything and find it uncomfortable to admit that we have no good explanation for random or mysterious events. Making up supernatural explanations satisfies our need for certainty and gives us a sense of comfort.
Some weather events were formerly regarded as being caused by the supernatural (gods giving blessings or curses) until we discovered that it is actually caused by natural forces of temperature and pressure. Some infectious diseases were formerly regarded as being caused by the supernatural (people interacting with the devil) until we discovered that it is actually caused by pathogens (bacteria, fungi, parasites, protozoa and viruses). Some mental illnesses were formerly regarded as being caused by the supernatural (demonic possession) until we discovered that it is actually caused by our genetics and biochemistry. Some accidents were formerly explained by providence (supernatural guidance) or karma (an energy or force that causes our future to necessarily be determined by our present and past behavior) but can now be explained by mathematics (statistics). Magnetism was formerly regarded as being caused by supernatural forces until we discovered that it’s actually caused by the motion of electric charge that results in attractive and repulsive forces between objects.
The big bang is the rapid expansion of space from a singularity (parts of space that defy the laws of physics) about 13.8 billion years ago. We know very little about singularities, but we know that they exist in the core of black holes (this doesn’t mean that the universe began as a black hole). We don’t know what existed before the big bang, what caused the big bang, where the laws of physics come from or if our universe is the only universe that exists. If time itself began at the big bang, then it's meaningless to ask about what happened before the big bang (like asking what’s north of the north pole) or what caused the big bang (causality is dependent on the existence of time). Therefore, we don’t know whether the universe had a beginning or whether the universe is eternal. The closer we look to the time “zero”, the less certain we are about what actually happened, because our current description of the laws of physics do not yet apply to such extreme circumstances.
@@SCJSkeptic forgive me you miss understand intent, i merely wanted to show you one is no better then the other in the regard of possibly one of the greatest mysteries yet even though science explains such matters as you have stated then you would also agree that it just gives better insight of what has already been put in place whether by a god or no god. but Einstein would also stand with me on such a matter, one who is a scientist. yet my question remains and will always remain. though god may not be prove able in a scientific way, it cannot be dis proven either.
@@eddiegleimus6537 I simply responded to what you stated. Science and logic is a better path than religion because it can actually be used to understand reality and develop technology. Religion has almost no explanatory power. When there is a mystery religion just asserts that god did it. That's an appeal to ignorance fallacy. Religion is pretty much useless when it comes to epistemology. However, it does provide people with psychological benefits.
You last statement of god not being able to be proven or disproven with science is correct. The difference is that religious people don't have a justification for why they believe a god exists. I simply say that I don't know. They are the ones being fallacious and intellectually arrogant. We also can't disprove the existence of fairies and unicorns with science. Does that mean we are justified in believing in their existence? Go watch my video on the burden of proof (SCJ Tactics - can you disprove it?). I explained this quite thoroughly. You don't seem to understand logical fallacies and how the burden of proof works.
@@SCJSkeptic and you still miss understand what im saying, i didn't assert god must be true im simply stating you are closed minded to the idea of a god even though the possibility may be there, science hasn't concluded everything, so what would science say 1000 years from now about this subject?it may aswell conclude there must be a god we don't know, and if so would you swallow your pride? im not judging just stating the little i know is about as much as you know, but i grow tired of a back and forth subject that gets us no where.
@@eddiegleimus6537 You keep saying stuff I disagree with so I am expressing my disagreeance. I am also stating implications of your reasoning.
Im also not asserting that god doesnt exist so what's the point you are trying to make since you are not addressing my position nor are you making your position clear? I will believe in the existence of a god if it is demonstrated with evidence as any rational person should do. There would be no need for me to swallow my pride since I wouldnt have a problem with it nor are I hoping a god doesnt exist. What am I closed minded about? Im simply demanding evidence and so far you have presented zero evidence. But at the same time I dont even know what you believe. I assumed you believed in a god because of your language usage. Perhaps I was wrong, Im sorry. Do you believe in a god or not?
Science doesnt investigate the supernatural so saying it might as well conclude the supernatural must exist is simply not how it works. That statement is wrong and shows your misunderstanding of how science works.
@Shincheonji Skeptic My question is why you even spending time on a things which you don't like it. On your prospective you are right but from our prospective we believe in the god of shincheonji, do not try to poison others, this is the exactly the same way Jewish leaders did 2000 years ago, and Jesus called them white washed tombs and unmarked graves. Out side so much beautiful, and attract peoples but from the inside nothing they knew about scriptures.
If there is anything I said that is factually incorrect (poison, deception) then point it out and demonstrate how it is false. I encourage criticism. SCJ people tend to label criticism as poison and persecution yet they are constantly criticizing people outside of the organization. Criticism is an essential part of the development of society.
I already shared why I am doing this. It's out of my love for truth, science, human well being and critical thinking. It is my ethical obligation to criticize bad ideas.
This is not exactly the same as what the Jewish leaders did. I am not religious and I don't persecute, I criticize. The Jewish leaders in the gospels were people who criticized Jesus from an outside biased perspective. They didn't understand the inner working of Jesus' movement. The Jewish leaders didn't understand science since they lived at a time when people were very ignorant of how the natural world works.
Lastly, regarding your statement about me having my perspective and you having your perspective. We need to evaluate our claims to determine which one is better and more accurately describes and explains reality. This is why critical thinking is so important.
@@SCJSkeptic God of the Bible beyond than the science that human teaches. Science came to be because god created everything so humans could great life. It is not to judge god with it.
Science can not find where god exist because human intelligence is so much lower than god's creations. His wisdom is beyond than Humans so even god is existence is not proof by humans.
Even the philosophers can not give a proper answers for how humanity came to be and even to many questions, purpose of being in this earth . Shincheonji created not according to the way of science teaching. It is about spirituality which is beyond the worldly teachings
@@sharmapragatheesh8895 yes I agree that science can't explain supernatural existence. Science investigates the natural world. Its the most reliable method we have to acquire knowledge of the natural world.
What method do you follow to investigate the supernatural? I am not familiar with a reliable method for this.
Science, philosophy and religion doesn't know the cause of existence. Scientists will regularly acknowledge that they don't know. Its those who are closed minded and dogmatic that claim that they know regardless of the evidence.
@@sharmapragatheesh8895 Shincheonji believes in the god of the Shincheonji and the jesus that Lee man her created, Shincheonji don't believe in the God of the Bible, the One who created Heavens and Earth, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
Bro can i chat with you.?need help,i am a learner from Shinjeonji and things for me are getting complicated 🥺..
Hello Jay
Please feel free to email me at shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com
@@SCJSkeptic can't find it sir..
@@jaybantan4429 sorry 🤦♂️
It's .com at the end of the email not .co.za
I edited it
@@SCJSkeptic still can't find it sir 🥺..
@@jaybantan4429 ok then try sending me a message on Reddit
www.reddit.com/u/Shincheonji-Skeptic?
This day I am studying in their Bible class. Give me your number I want details about this group
You can email me at shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com
@@SCJSkeptic, Just last week I completed Elementary level, on 14th August I going to study for next level
@@SCJSkeptichow they Manipulate the people, tell me please
@@SCJSkeptic, I'm from Arunachal Pradesh, India
@@SCJSkeptic, It is my humble request to you, kindly give me your WhatsApp number please please please, because instructors are hiding me the truth, many times I want to conversation with them to know about Their Ministry but they are giving me chance
Hello brother is it allright if I get your contact details like Facebook or instagram I want to ask questions about shincheonji
Hey man
You can email me at shincheonjiskeptic@gmail.com