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Meshtastic Explained - Flood Routing & Upcoming Changes!
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- Опубликовано: 26 мар 2022
- A quick (non-technical) explanation of the new flood routing algorithm coming soon to Meshtastic 1.3/2.0!
In Meshtastic 1.2 (and prior), up to three devices will randomly rebroadcast a received packet to spread that packet to other devices on the network. Each time a packet is rebroadcast, we call this a "hop".
Meshtastic 1.3/2.0 changes that in two ways:
First, devices on the edge of the network are preferred to rebroadcast the packet. This will help ensure that distant devices will receive the transmitted message.
Second, we introduce the concept of a router that is weighted even higher on the network so your message will more likely pass through them rather than regular nodes.
I'm going to use your system for cow tracking in the mountains of Honduras. Multiple solar powered very small repeaters are the reason why. I'll add a small circuit board to power up for 3 minutes every 12 hours. That way battery life on the cow is more than a year.
That's awesome!!! Any progress on your work? Very interested
Likewise! Any update?
Mooooooo
It would nice to see a slightly modified version of this for tracking dogs. I live where there is hardly any phone signal, and have bought an expensive RF tracker to get me by. We're farmers too, so keeping track of stock on the moor would be amazing!
Extremely interested in this!
Excellent. This video taught me next to nothing when I first watched it. Since having played with some hardware, I understand better and it has now taught me a lot. Many thanks.
Glad it helped!
Excellent improvements guys. I'm so glad you are still developing this. So much potential
Nice video. Thanks for the clear explanation. Looking forward to seeing it in action.
thanks
Very nice! Great work that may already be saving lives around the world. We just started here in brazil and the community is building.
Router (and repeater) forwarding preference is an important feature.
Maybe in the future routers could generate and self administer router routing tables, so that traffic (at least between fixed routers) is optimized. The reliability/resource use equation is a very interesting optimization problem.
I personally dream of the day where will be routing bitcoin micro payments and this is the new whatsapp. Unstoppable and uncensorable.
Awesome explanation, esp with some San Miguel :P
Thank you for the kind words:)
@@Meshtastic of course! I’ve just joined “the movement” (located in WA) and loving every bit of it! 😊
Very well explained, and now that it's visualized it finally made sense!
We need to get mesh up as best we can ASAP. Useful!
who
@@user-jt5vm3mi1w Freedom loving citizens.
All those smart device lovers will panic when everything they own shuts down. Bank it.
@@barneyrubble4827you mean the devices you still need for this to work/operate? lol
If you wanted to mount a T-beam running Meshtastic on a pole or up high, is it necessary to place it in relay/mesh mode or is it on by default?
This makes it so unstable in low snr environments preferring further bodes. I see many nodes online but cant message them which is a big disheartner.
How is distance within the network determined? If I have radios without gps as part of my network, and my radios change position regularly, I'm assuming that there's a ping that is sent at some interval to determine the response time.
Exactly it would be ping response related
It's some fancy math involving mostly SNR and a little RSSI. No pings because that adds overhead. The algorithm was selected to be 0% overhead.
my concern is ah wireless may make this outdated
@@mattheww797don't think so: 802.11ah is like 5Mbps up to 5 miles.. this one is like 1Kbps up to 100+ miles. different use cases :)
@@EvgeniX.up too 100+ miles bahahaha.. more like maybeee a mile in real world, regular city terrain, if you’re lucky. more typically half a mile in a regular neighborhood street if you’re LUCKY. I can msg a neighbor at the end of my block, about it without “meshing” more nodes and having hilltop/mountain top nodes nearby. only way you’re getting 100 miles is mountain top to mountain top with absolutely nothing in between. people that make these claims are gaslighting this tech so hard.
I have 2 LoRa Heltec Devices left on charging for a while, and were only connected to each other... In Las Vegas at the time, and the DEF CON convention comes and I've got over 15 other people connected... My two devices only see each other about 1 mile away, not clear line of sight... That time of Def Con, some of these GPS locations were at the strip over 6-7 miles away.
I guess anyone can hop on the default channels?
Thumbs up for the content and especially for the san miguel pilsen bottle :)
It's so good!
My question is; do the devices help broadcast other channels communication, or is it limited to the channels they've joined?
(Ie, if some random person puts a meshtastic device on-top of a hill, will that random device relay your messages over that hill?)
My understanding is that because the header is not encrypted, if the signal is broadcast “requesting” for retransmission, and the random device does not have repeating disabled, it should be repeated.
@@them2545 neat!
as long as both nodes are set to the same frequency and the same transmit settings (long/fast, long/slow, short/fast, etc) it will restransmit your messages to the mesh. If you have the same default channel with the same psk (“password”) for the default channel, it will share the message and be abkento be read by anyone it reaches on the mesh. if the psk or channel is DIFFERENT… i.e. you have “cool” as a channel and the other node has “sweet” as a channel.. the channels will not talk and the two nodes will not be able to read each others messages. but if your buddy sends a message to you on a matching channel the node that does not have your channel WILL assist with retransmission to get to you. The only time it would not.. is if the node is set to a different frequency OR a different transmit mode (long/fast, short/fast, etc). most everyone in this project (for now while the network is being built out keeps their nodes set to the default settings… long/fast transmit mode and channel 0 (primary channel) all have the same psk “password” so everyone can be sending messages and being able to test equipment, locations, and building out the network). Once the network is built out enough.. more and more private channels will be added and used. right now, its mostly long/fast and default primary channel settings. hope that helps more than the “like” the video poster gave you.
@@ertonyrn so a private channel on the default settings will get boosted by others on those settings, regardless of whether they have the decryption key to that channel?
@@ThylineTheGay correct. they will obviously not be able to read your messaage.. in fact, they wont even know the message went through their node if they dont have your private channels name and password… but their node will FORWARD it along.. Again, so long as their node is on the same FREQUENCY (which it should be if youre in the same country region) and on the same transmission type (Long/Fast) which most people have kept as default. Hope that answers your question.
Great video to help new users. May I suggest a follow-up that explains a little how a mesh works where a node may receive a packet and the planned next relay point may move out of range, go offline or some other change that causes it to not be able to forward the message and then cannot send an ACK to the sending node to initiate re-routing? Or maybe better explained in lay terms how a "self-healing" network looks to re-route packets if a node goes down between sending/receiving nodes and thus transparent to the user finds an alternate path. Thanks again for your work on this project, I believe the "out of stock" on so many supply sources is the best indicator of how popular it is.
What you described is not flood routing. In flood routing EVERY node rebroadcasts EVERY unique packet it receives. Simple, crazy robust, but not efficient.
The algorithm described, which sounded like "rebroadcast after a random delay but only if you don't hear N copies first", would improve efficiency in a crowded net at some cost of robustness. The revision then sounds like designated routers have the shortest delay, followed by nodes which receive the signal weakly.
We implement a version of the BATMAN protocol with our own tweaks. It's an implementation of flood routing.
So in the 1.3 firmware or the latest 1.2 is there a new router function that's working or is this the traditional methodology. When you flip on the router switch from the command line? Cuz I know before and the 1.245 or 5.6 that functionality wasn't actually working
Loved the San Miguel
When you mention a router, what do you mean, a LoRa designated as such, or an actual commercial router that you can add to your network? If it's the latter, can you explain how to do that? I didn't know it was an option. Thanks
It means a node that has priority to relay messages. Usually not bluetooth or wifi connected, although possible.
The node's role is set as Router. You can take a look here for more information: meshtastic.org/docs/settings/config/device
Interesting project. I wonder what happens if there's a bad actor try to perform a DOS attack on this network by forcing the devices to relay a bunch of trash all the time? I guess if you may need some kind of authentication like only relay messages from an approved ECC private key?
So a packet set to 7 hops max will preferencially hit 7 repeaters/routers along it's path before attempting to hop out via any client nodes?
no answer.. just a “like”. super helpful! thanks meshtastic devs!
How does the router get preference? i.e. how do the other nodes know NOT to repeat it? Do they just wait to see if they hear the message again from the router?
It's an algorithm based on time and the signal to nose ratio.
Is there any special setup to create a router with meshtastic, other than just nodes?
Just set the is_router flag to true
We’re going to introduce the concept of “roles” and one of the roles is to be a router. That’ll come when 1.3 is in trials and for sure in 2.0.
I’m in GA. My phone calls all USA and Canada free from any country. But I will not start traveling again until after all changes coming.
Hi, is there a way to get in touch with you regarding questions? I'm an editor for an IT magazine and would love to show this to our audience. Besides that, I have a personal interest in the topic :)
One question that has been in my head is whether autonomous connections (via Bluetooth or wifi) between two routers would be possible to route between different data rates. For example, I have one router on a mountain that uses a slower modulation to cover a city, which is connected to another router right next to it that uses a faster modulation to connect to an equivalent setup on another mountain that is in line of sight.
Send a message to youtube@meshtastic.org . That'll get to us.
Nodes can connect to mqtt brokers. So the Broker could mirrow the messages from one Network to a other.
Editor for an IT magazine... that must be the most boring job ever...
Great video. Very well explained. Any idea when these new versions are going to be released ?
If everything goes well, in 2 1/2 months ... but this is open source and we're all volunteers, so we'll see what happens :)
Csn you give a more technical description of the algorithm? Im always doing edge case kinda things. Need to know the specific details to get there
You can review the information here: meshtastic.org/docs/overview/mesh-algo/.
For anything more specific you'll need to review the firmware repository on GitHub.
Why can't this type of mesh networking and routing not be used with communication apps on smartphones, they have pretty powerful radios and afaik modern phones wifi chips even have built in mesh capability. All apps that i've seen use bluetooth and/or the current wifi hub, severely limiting how and what it can be used for. If i'm at my house i don't need to chat with the person sitting next to me, i'll try my ears and mouth. The reason these social and messaging apps became such a big thing is not because it allows us to talk to the person sitting next to us, it's specifically the range covered that makes this amazing. A proper mesh and routing protocol on existing devices would be revolutionary.
The Bluetooth 5.0 mesh specification could potentially work as an under layer for everything that we do, it just won’t have the kind of range that we need. Without too much work, we can actually communicate with satellites orbiting the earth. You can’t say the same thing with Bluetooth or Wi-Fi.
The LoRa secret sauce is the chirp mode communication protocol that's designed into the chipset. That's what allows very low data rate signals to be broadcast over very long distances using very little power. A significant portion of the power used is in the encoding and decoding and not in the transmitted signal, and LoRa is computationally efficient, using some very clever digital signal processing.
you are showing all this from a simple single signal going one way, but in fact it is doing this on a 360degree radius around? so the maximum of 3jump is in fact done multiple times because other nodes on the other side are also getting the same packets over their own mesh.
please correct me if i am mistaken.
Sir, you have a very wrinkly brain. You are correct and that is actually idealized behavior. We want the packet to reach as far wide as possible.
So there is a network status ping from all devices at intervals to build a signal strength network around each node? Each node can then send a forwarding potential value based on it's own network ping results? So when the base module sends a packet at best likely route ranking . All repeaters of that ranking and above will receive and try to repeat by ranking other nodes around.Those nodes will try to repeat on their highest ranking. If no acknowledge is received from a repeater to say they have successively passed the msg on over three repeats at decreasing ranking levels. Then that link ends if a path is found and returned acknowledge this will add to the nods in the paths ranking score to try to maintain the strongest temporary path for that end to end data conversation. Well that's how i would do it anyway. In my opinion Meshtasic has to be able to pass traffic through other network groups for this networking over Lora to have a growing popularity beyond hobbyists.
There'll be an updated video that goes into more detail. It's actually very elegant and simple. No additional network traffic or complicated routing logic needed.
hope it take in to consideration . Device furthest out "that have high speed" so not the one that is rely far out. the one that have good speed and is far out.
HELP!
I can't find any solution on meshtastic or YT. Pretty desperate noob here 😥
I bought a Lilygo T-Beam (868/915) and when I turn it on it tells me I need to set the region and that I can find info on meshtastic. I managed to connect it to the android app and after some tries I can connect to the device and set the region. However, the oled keeps displaying the same message and the app keeps telling me that I need to update it, even though I just installed it and there is no newer version.
I thought I maybe have to flash the thing via windows but it looks like there is no simple installer or something and it says something about python which went completely over my head. Pretty frustrating...
Great video, it this still the way the current firmware is working?
If not a fresh video would be great 👍
Yes, we're still using flood routing in the current firmware.
I kinda got in a mental zone on that one. I want more of those! ;-)
So I’m still not 100% clear on what meshtastic actually is? Is it the firmware you flash on the Lora device, the app you install on the phone, specially made Lora h/w, some combination or something else?
Definitely a combination of all those. Think of it as a platform. We have firmware that you flash to your LoRa devices that you use in creating the mesh network. We also have clients (applications) that you can use to administer as well as communicate over the mesh.
If you haven't you should study WB4APR's routing algorithm used in the Worldwide APRS network. As APRS evolved over the past 30 years they had the same growing pains you are likely to encounter, especially when the population of digipeaters grew.
Someone should summarize the last 30 years of development in the APRS network to showcase the problems encountered and solutions chosen, as a video.
Someone please explain a little more to me. If I am out in the Wilderness and lose my cell signal...will this help me send out a text message through my phone to another phone anywhere?
No, it does not work remotely. It requires other devices to rebroadcast the messages.
Is this method also used in OGN (Open Glider Network) application ? Or those devices are only transmitting their own ? (softRf for example)
Not sure about those. As far as we know, this is a Meshtastic exclusive. We could have patented it, but that would not have been for the good of the community.
Keep up the good work!
Maybe this in popular in the UK, but I see 2 inhibiting factors: 1. assembly required, 2. Range is very limited if few devices exit within an area. Serious point to point range is pretty sad. Translated....you have to have a lotta techie types owning these things locally to pull off serious coverage.
Range can be limited but these devices can do pretty amazing range given what they are. The key factor to these devices, being low powered, is line of sight. The current land-to-land record between two devices directly is 254km (meshtastic.org/docs/overview/range-tests#current-ground-record-254km). Of course that's a rural area versus an urban area which present a lot more RF blocking features, this is why proper planning is key.
Assembly is required, it's not for everyone. Some of our community members recognize this and offer fully-assembled devices for purchase. Search "Meshtastic" on Etsy.
Salud compadre, gracias por su trabajo i explicación.
So when Transmitting to a router, will said router retransmit to another router and perhaps and so on and so fourth down a line of routers before retransmitting for other nodes?
It is a bit more new ones than that but yes. It will sort of do that.
will this cosider altitude to right? for example in a montain terrain
Can we/ I test transmission enhancement on a used/ cleaned up satelite dish some how?
I have WiFi/internet. However I live with many trees. I want to create/add amplifier wher it goes to antenna and run it through amplifier /dish wires and send at angle over trees to area I feel good it will connect to others.
Plus I want to set one 5 miles away at moms to receive messages from her or emergency msg auto created when she needs me.
If Meshtastic devices have proper RF line of sight, you can get hundreds of KMs between nodes with the tiny stock antenna. No dishes needed.
If someone could build a 4 Network receiver smart phone it’s be lit. LTE/SAT/LoRa/SDR
well, u can always have an sdr otg to u'r phone, lora in another pocket. as for sat, i've seen someone doing lora over mil satcom uhf with 1watt modules. illegal, but effective ;)
good San Miguel beer
Huge thanks to the open source developers who have pushed LoRa to its potential in the last few years. It's really taking off now.
I've tried to interest the JS8Call developer into implementing automated message routing into the protocol. I love JS8, the ham radio version of Meshtastic, but routing is done manually, usually based on SNR and distance, although JS8Call does allow reporting of who is seeing which stations.
underated beer btw
Is there an equivalent of RIP here? It seems to me that such an equivalent on all the nodes would fix a lot of these problems.
We’ve looked into a couple proposals, but none of them have really improved the underlying flood routing mechanism. We are currently investigating doing some nearest neighbor analysis to see if that would help at all. If you have any concrete ideas, or would like to contribute, we are a welcoming group.
@@Meshtastic
I'm sure you guys have already thought of all this, but watching your video (which was really concerned with packet switching), I couldn't help thinking that these problems have all been solved by TCP/IP.
I may be missing something obvious, but surely the only difference between what you are doing and what already exists is that one is wireless?
Nodes are as much a logical concept as they are physical, so surely existing TCP/IP has addressed these problems? Or am I being stupid?
BTW, what you are doing is excellent and I believe that there will be a real need for it in the not-too-distant future.
There's a limited number of hops before your message gives up, and thus a limited range you can communicate, right?
And you say that my message will always hit a router first if a router is present, but what if there's a router very close to me, so close that it would be a waste of a precious hop to have it go through the router, when it could hit a much further out node first?
Wouldn't that reduce my overall range? Forgive me, I'm very new, so just learning :-)
Very good question.
The intent is that your router is well placed and would be the preferred source for packets. If you have a router, your network design should be such that the router would be a work horse of your Meshtastic Network. A router passing a packet should always be considered good rather than a detriment.
@@Meshtastic Ah, I suppose I was thinking more of the main public network, rather than my own self contained private one.
If a stranger a few houses down the road had a router setup, wouldn't my message intentionally waste one of its limited hops to go through the very close-by router node, before truly beginning it's journey further afield, thus limiting the potential for reaching further away/more tricky route contacts?
Thank you for replying by the way! I'm just trying to get my head around how it all works so I can better understand my own setup's behaviour :-)
@@KingMoronProductions There are a lot of worse case scenarios that could bodge the network, just like any technology out there. Luckily, those very rarely happen and we've done quite a bit of evaluation and research to make sure that the right trade-offs are in place. The benefit of this algorithm is fairly well measurable.
I was thinking abt aplication that you could mount one on airplane and have these as prefered SOOOO THIS IS AWSOME, edit so the plane will be my router
Someone once suggested weather balloons. :)
That would work in theory. The issue would be getting airlines to agree to it 😆
Space and it's being done.
nice biceps bro!
OMG
Jajajaja!! Good beer San Miguel, from spain :)
had a few last summer, in Tarifa 🏄
will nodes owned by others that are not in my network relay my messages...and visa-versa?
It depends on how their LoRa settings are configured. meshtastic.org/docs/configuration/tips/#rebroadcast-public-traffic
i want that Philippine Beer.
So is the router doing the function like a network router or is it just repeating at random? Why not make the router do what a router does and stores a routing table so it knows where to transmit data to in the shortest burst. Each station in range of a router is to transmit a "mac address and location" to any router in range. Also noting what nodes are in its own range that the router may not see. SO say you need to send transmission across several states. The router that got the transmission knows which specific nodes or next routers to send the signal to to have passed on to get to the destination node. Basic network routing for tcp/ip. Adopt something like that into this network. You may already have done this as i am a complete noob to this tech. But from watching the video i wasnt getting that. Seems like its random transmissions.
Our routing is based on an algorithm, our own implementation with several modifications of the BATMAN protocol. Because of our medium (wireless) there is no real concept of point to point links. Everything is broadcast. We also have very low network bandwidth, this means maintaining routing tables is rather expensive.
When you say router do you mean repeater?
No, at the time of this filming only the router role was available. However, the both the router and repeater roles act similarly in terms of preferred routing so it would be the same for either.
I wish my routers spawned beer 😂
Thank you, good video. I am really new to Meshtastic, quick question, can any Meshtastic device be a router, is it just the config change in the CLI (meshtastic --set is_router) , and presumably a good antenna location and reliable/constant power supply?
In 1.3, setting it will be done slightly different by defining a "role" over the CLI. There will be other roles too.
You're correct -- you want a router to be well placed and reliable.
nice choice of beer :D
Does a router count as a hop and decrement the TTL?
Yes. You can see an example of the hop count here: meshtastic.org/docs/configuration/radio/lora#max-hops
how is location determined? it can't be signal strength or gps!!! all I can imagine to be real is a kind of signal response time in Triangulation 🤷♂
What location are you referring to?
@@Meshtastic I should have said "position" not "location": you were referring that in version 2.0 the protocol sends to the furthest receiver first, which makes a lot of sense. But how does the sender know the location of receivers? Is there a time based pinging in place?
@@BingoBongoManIf you read the documentation you would find the answer is that the receiver determines the distance based on the SNR and then computes the distance using the FSPL formula.
if you use a raspberry pi, could you have software there that has text to speech and speech to text so you could have a "talking radio" albeit not with the persons voices but much more useful than text in certain situations ? bet thats a fun challenge to implement.
Totally! Do it!
Meshtastic How far can this span out distance between each node etc city state country???
San Miguel
I am not sure I understand your presented problem. However, here is some use case questions. Given routers connected on both ends of a simple point A to point B network (well within the range of LoRa), does the router support inverse multiplexing multiple Chirpy LoRa devices together ? I just wanted to let you know that you know what I am asking. Can the little data rates or LoRa be aggregated to form a more significant data rate? Have you ever tried a use case scenario whereby a chat server at Point A is serving multiple little 56-byte text messages to multiple participants at Point B?
Where do I buy my equipment from ?
There are multiple places you can purchase from depending on where you are located. You can find links at meshtastic.org/docs/hardware/devices/
San Miguel beer is ok, good flavors, crisp taste.
It was tasty :)
can helium network be used with this ?
Ask Helium for support. We accept pull requests for changes. :)
How do i configure a device as a router?
You can take a look at the device configuration options here: meshtastic.org/docs/settings/config/device
We “will” have outage / replacement to new internet worldwide. Same with electricity in USA this year pretty soon I hope. Though disabled, I work with ATeam IN USA. On these exact projects.
And whats the point and purpose of this?
This explains the flood routing that is used in Meshtastic's mesh algorithm. meshtastic.org/docs/overview/mesh-algo/
I spy a filipino beer
Biggest takeaway, San Miguel actually has a paper label now. Man, I'm getting old.
how to remove spammer from the mesh?
Sent message: got San Miguel beer! Party at my place…
Party!
wat
I’m super excited about this here! Leave message here.
why is the routing so poorly designed?
Do you have an alternative algorithm that works on our medium? We’re constantly evaluating ways to make it better.
@@Meshtasticman you guys are a real bunch of pricks overall… i stopped by the discord today and your admins and devs had the same crappy attitudes and power trips threatening to ban people over civil discourse/debates. the guy just asked a simple question. why does that deserve a condescending, pricky response? it is poorly designed. a lot of stuff doesnt work properly.. traceroute is a joke.. gps/mapping/mqtt stuff is a disaster. how about “we are condtantly trying to improve. we knows its not perfect. it started as a prject and now that its taking off, we’re trying to make significant improvements. this is a free, open source project and we dont dedicate our entire lives to it. we’re open to suggestions, ideas, and help.”….. but no. sarcastic bullshit. super annoying.
Are you Filipino? You have san mig pale pilsen😁
Looks like a Spanish San Miguel label that is brewed in many countries , the Spanish SM separated from the Filipino parent company many years ago.
Seems a bit...arbitrary
You can find more info here: meshtastic.org/docs/overview/mesh-algo
That wasn’t the first beer.
@@Integr8d it wasn’t the last either
San Miguel Beer
This I just discovered this in looking at electronic things at “Andreas Spies” on RUclips.
I’m a computer guy but interested in your project and many others. The company in China that makes the device, will they sponsor another person with the hardware to help where I can on this project?
I’m disabled and “some”time free on my hands to try help. I am super fast hands on tech learner.
That ability got me 37yrs(contracting/employment at IBM USA. THEN PROMOTED TO ASIA PACIFIC. I HAVE NO COLLEGE DEGREE.
BUT HANDS ON TECH GROWS IN MY BODY..😂. I’m a sponge!
Keep spamming and proving your able to work and disability might review your case...
Lol, my disability involves all major organs, plus brain damage. I have challenge with over 5 minute focus project.
Hard…
ƤＲＯ𝓂Ｏ𝕤ᗰ 😊