In the early days the mahavishnu orchestra was a sensation and is still unrivaled today. Weather Report is nevertheless finer, and has a different approach. I love both bands!
Weather Report has way more stuff and most of it is more enjoyable/easier than the constant "tension-release" thing Mahavishnu does. Not totally different than the difference between Crimson and Yes, actually.
I don't think that the 80s KC band had any of the tension-release that you're talking about, except for Indiscipline. I mean, the songs Discipline and Sheltering Sky are (even philosophically) totally the opposite. That said, I see your general point.
@@jdmresearch Not to be jerk, (here it comes! lol), but 80's Crimson is full of examples of "tension and release". The whole back half of Three of a Perfect Pair is nothing but.
Love both bands. For WR, my favourite lineup was with Omar and Victor. Seeing Omar live was something special. I saw them live many times, but what was very special was having front row seats on a balcony right behind the band, directly behind Omar. What a perspective! Unfortunately never got to see MO.
I saw four MO tours, including the first one, the “Birds of Fire” tour at the Mississippi River Festival. Three and a half hours of genius - and approximately an hour was McLaughlin’s solos. I can still remember, note for note, a number of licks he never put on record. That’s how good he really was.
That was a tough one, with Weather Report, Mahavishnu, and Return To Forever all excellent, all had Mile's influence, and all releasing albums at the same time in the 70's...
Saw the UK debut of the MO alongside Yes at the Crystal Palace Bowl. Weather Report I saw (alongside Shakti and the George Duke Billy Cobham band FOR A QUID!) with the wonderful Heavy Weather line - up ( I recommend looking at the Montreux gig with this line- up).
Really appreciate how you handled this one, considering the huge MO fam you describe yourself as, giving WR overly fair consideration in your view. The only things i would challenge are in the influence category and great to crap ratio. Where RTF, Eleventh House etc seem to obviously be affected by and reacting to the first MO album, WR i believe is more aloof to it. I dont think there is a clear connection to MO giving WR permission to play harder. Zawinul and Shorter come across as on their own planet/path with its own momentum, where others are free to join if they want. Yeah, they were pals etc, but WR seem to have their own maturity and identify apart from MO being a relative peer pressure. Great to crap, we get into personal taste territory. In 1990 i was 17, well into Rush, but at the time, also into thrash metal and post punk. Was at a record store looking for some Slayer or Metallica cassettes when over the stores stereo system i heard Talking Drum into Larks 2 playing. Knocked me completely over. Asked the older clerk behind the counter about it and he took me on an intense and condensed musical journey over the next hour sampling tracks from Between Nothingness and Eternity, Relayer, Octopus, Larry Coryell at Village Gate, Mysterious Traveller, Hymn of the 7th Galxy and Foxtrot. Obviously i embarked on a completely different path than i was on. I looked for those bands in the cassette section and found a few. Birds Of Fire being my first MO album purchase and I Sing Body Electric being the first WR. Birds seemed like nothing less than a serious album. Only thing that bothered me was the acoustic stuff and nost of the soloing. But the compositions.. wow. As i quickly began acquiring more MO albums i noticed a theme with them. Other worldy compositions, wanky solos that had a cheesy vibe and seemed there for the sake of soloing as if out of habit, and goofy generic 6/8 blues gooves that were combined with an incredible compositional method which KIND OF made up for it. Mainly it appealed to the music scientist side of me while making another part of me cringe, like when my dad grabbed the mic at my wedding and did a Buddy Holly impression thinking he was a bad ass. Birds of Fire is the most "serious" and least cringy of their albums. Well, Between Nothingness too. But their albums are not all solid, serious no cringe material. WR on the other hand are pretty much all that. Serious, solid, no cringe etc. I personally don't see what you seem to be calling "fuzak" (at least in regard to WR) as a bad thing. Maybe you accepting the cringey Mclaughlin/Ponty/Hammer solos (Goodman and Narada who is my favorite drummer are the only soloists with non-cringe integrity) and the generic blues-dad loping 6/8 grooves of MO as fine is how i see no problem with later 70s "fuzak" WR. Great to crap ratio? WR maintains the seriousness and conceptual artistry going throughout each album. On a side note, Hymn is the only RTF album that approaches this intergrity. They are fun and i love them, but in the light of enjoying the intensity of their cheesy/goofiness.
Very entertaining Andy Interesting to hear you mention Alphonso Johnson. He is one two bass players I love that I rarely hear mentioned. The other is Anthony Jackson. I understand they might not have had the impact of a Paul Chambers, Ron Carter or Jaco, but I just love their playing.
I know it sounds strange, since Alphonso Johnson decided to go on by himself, but I think with him Weather Report would have had similar Success then with Jaco Pastorious. His strong Groove from Underneath had changed Weather Report towards the Jazzdance Workshops young Women went for back then. One Reason for the Success of Jazzrock Fusion and Funk Jazz was the Danceability of the Music of Weather Report, Crusaders and George Benson. In Montreux you really could see that FunkJazz/JazzRock Fusion had nearly as much Women in the Audience as the very Popular Brasilien Concerts. One of the Reason of the Upcoming Fuzakification of Jazzrock or as we called it: „La Piscine de Montreux Sound“ was the Intrusion of Bossa Nova into the Jazzrock Fusion „Melange“. Tom Scott and Lee Ritenour were emblematic for this „Saccharine Sweetness“. The Music of John Mc Laughlin was not malleable enough for this kind of softening. From the Mid 70ties on Herbie Hancock, Chic Corea, Weather Report, George Benson and the Crusaders were defining „Funky Jazzrock Fusion“. Inner Mounting Flame is a Mount Everest Record and it has Guitar on it. So yes Mahavishnu is my Choice. Weather Report never really hooked me in.
Few points, good sir (from Birmingham?:- 1. As pointed out by others, WR cannot be called jazz-rock for the obvious lack of guitar. Better description would be "fusion". 2. You should have added "Pretentiousness" as a category and MO would have won a stack of negative points, JM being the prime culprit; ask Jan, Billy and Jerry. 3. WR productions should have scored much more points, if only because JZ was a sublime sculptor of soundscapes. He redesigned/reconfigured synthesizers. 4. MO, much like RTF, were more wham-bam-speed freaks, rather than chiseling each note to perfection, allowing a more space-as-music approach, of which WR were masters. 5. Soul!? WR hands down! 6. Balance. The JZ/WS spiritual edifice gave WR unrivaled equanimity, which was sadly disturbed by WS's retirement. MO was mostly a lop-sided JM vehicle, soaring in some places but spluttering in most. 7. Musical journey of the chief protagonists. JM is largely basking in past achievements, while JZ reached a spiritual nadir in later years, specifically with the Z Syndicate and finding solace and expression in indigenous music, laughably called "3rd World". I believe Scott Kinsey would bear me out on most, if not all, points. Overall: WR 9/10; MO 7/10
Come come, Mr. Edwards! (Not Adams!) We both know the outcome was a foregone conclusion, why don't you admit it? Seriously - two great bands and appreciate you pointing out the common denominators. I thought it was a bit chalk and cheese for a comparison, but you pulled it together. Well done, old bean.
Fantastic . I use the Prog-o-meter all the time, and now. The Superi-o-meter will help me a great deal. I wonder ..wendy..wanda.. if any of my own unauthorized inputs will taint future ( past or even present ) outcomes?
Coulda come to the same conclusion much quicker with the one correct, most efficient question -- Which band had electric guitar? J/K -- of course I'm one of those who is on the same page about these comparisons being meaningless or impossible; but as Pete Pardo says, a very good excuse to talk about the music!
Everything you say is so true and so well said - except for comments about Weather Report (1982). For me it represents the high point in terms of cronky jazz [that is the way they make detritus into something beautiful, somewhat like Zappa, only you always get the impression Zappa is sneering - sort of political, too. But with Weather Report, they turn the everyday trash into jewels]. And with Weather Report 1982, you have pure cronk with Volcano for Hire and peculiar NY Suite. But having done all of that and one or two sweet ballady things, they then produce Dara Factor II. What a unique concept that is! Controlled within a framework throughout with all these glorious explosions taking place - beautiful statements by Jaco Pastorius and Warne Shorter - Zawanul adjusting the explosive potential from time to time, but most impressive, behind it all, Pete Erskine playing (for me, admittedly a dumbass non-drummer) one of the most colourful and quietly powerful of backbeats - the final (album list) track of the classic Weather Report incarnation.
Don't worry, Andrew. When you normalize the score against normal music the Superi-o-meter would rank them both as 10 because of the limited resolution. Only when comparing two great bands that are really close in their level of superirity, do we need a clear-cut device to sort out the conflict. Since this is the only superi-o-meter on earth it's hard to tell if other similar devices also have this limited resolution. Great video and I loved it. Thanks.
What fun! Mahavishnu for me too. I'm currently watching Frank Zappa in Barcelona, and thinking, what on earth could rival that? Only Gentle Giant and Todd Rundgren, both of whom I have seen live. (I saw Frank in Stafford, my home town.) Hint.
I'm a massive fan of Wayne Shorter, with Andrew Hill my favorite jazz composer ever but I've always thought that in terms of compositions his best work was almost all outside Weather report for some reason. Being it with Miles Davis (to me, the second quintet is the greatest band of all times), Lee Morgan, Wynton Kelly, Art Blakey, Milton Nascimento or after in his solo work (that masterpiece that is High life in particular, but also Atlantis and some of his more recent stuff too) it's all superior to the tunes he wrote with WR (altough he wrote some good stuff there too, like Plaza real or Elegant people).
Well, same thing with Yes and especially Crimson (see his 1st video). I'm sure in a few months Andy will do something more specific with different incarnations (for instance, King Crimson 73 vs King Crimson 81?), when the Superi-o-meter is better calibrated.
Tasks for Superiometer: Presley vs Beatles, Led Zeppelin vs Pink Floyd, Hendrix vs Miles Davis, Nirvana vs Bjork, Armstrong vs Ellington, The Doors vs Janis Joplin, Zappa vs Dylan.
I first thought that your premise was too silly, but after watching I have to commend you on your rational reasoning, I was very impressed. I did agree with most of what you say in this. I want to add one element though, MO compared to WR has not continued to stay as listenable as they were. I find them harder to listen to these days because 'it just too much' energy too often, where WR has more 'air' and lets you breathe.
Back in the mid/late 70's i loved those 2 bands (and RTF) equally, but as the decades have gone by, Weather Report is easily the top of the pile for me.
Has the Band a Guitarplayer? Yes: 90 Points of 100 No: 10 Point of 100. Are there enough Points resting to be distributed? Yes? No! No? Yes! Is this fair? No! Did I say that I am Guitarfreak!
I could not believe Mahavishnu sold more records than WR and my hunch was right; Best selling album Mahavishnu 'birds of fire' sold 500,000 copies Best selling album Weather Report 'heavy weather' sold 1 million copies Considering WR made 14 official albums and Mahavishnu only 6, its fair to say WR won that category !
Weather Report has some, imo, better live recordings than _8:30__._ On some of them Alex Acuna [who otherwise played percussion in the band] is on drums. I love his “airy” style, things are just “floating” when he is playing live😊 He was the drummer on _Heavy Weather._ Nice to see him on the thumbnail too. WR got funkier, yes. MO Can’t Stand Your Funk on Visions, but if they would have had a longer life, they would have gone funkier too.
I respect MO , especially Visions with Narada and was of course blown away by Cobham's speed and super clean style...but Weather Report with Jaco and Wayne Shorter is so subtle and somehow more sexy. If I want to hear guitar Allan Holdsworth is much more interesting to my ear...but in the end they are all masters.
Weather Report has so little rock in it, I don't consider it to be Jazz Rock. Their sound is organic and there is very little showboating (except for Jaco live). I can't tie them to fuzak either. They are in a class of their own.
There were five Fusion bands. The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Return To Forever, Herbie Hancock's Headhunters and Larry Coryell's Eleventh House. The leaders of the first four all came out of Miles' band. Miles didn't want to go electric, but he was pressured by the record company. In addition to infinite Search, later reissued as Mountain In The Clouds are Joe Farrell Quartet and Spaces by Larry Coryell, which both feature McLaughlin and Chick. I would direct you to John McLaughlin's 17 CD box set The Montreux Concerts. The first two discs are the band heard on Visions Of The Emerald Beyond playing all the material from Apocalypse, stripped down without the large orchestra. There is also a release called Trio Of Doom which is McLaughlin with Jaco and Tony Williams.
Miles poached funk genius Henderson from Wonders himself, asked Herbie to play fender Rhodes, recognised the material McLaughlin was producing, adored rock culture and Hendrex, and electronics- he was curious about everything, fused AfroCuban drumming with Stockhausen and Indian drone, encouraged Pete Cosey. Miles was also tired of his own licks and developed a new vovabulary with electric trumpet with wahwah pedal. Going rock was Miles' idea.
Miles did not want to go Electric? Miles was reluctant to play Rock Venues the Way Charles Lloyd did. But Clive Davis, Head of CBS back then encouraged him to do so. And Betty Davis dressed him up appropriately.
Weather Report- I Sing The Body Electric. Great record. Two of my favorite bands…….i would have given it to them, but I do absolutely love Vision Of The Emerald Beyond.
Andy,(My 1st Reply)there's a video about Metallica'a Kill 'Em All(Lp i own😉) done in the style of ZZ Top,but i thought about Kill'Em All in the style of Mahavishnu Orchestra(I own a couple of their Lps) that'll be ultimate😍💚👍
"Maybe the day will come when teenagers can trust a group with a balding piano player" (1972) Incomparable cannot be compared. If only with the PiedPiper of Hamelin.
Re: influence. Ask Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson.... How the Mahavishnu O influenced Selling England and Close to the Edge is well documented. I can give you the references. Also, there's indirect evidence suggesting that they were influential on the 72-74 period, especially Larks. This is all what I need...
Wanted to give you a heads-up that Nick of NicknLex just gave you a shout-out and played some of your early music on a prog marathon. I suggested you two should do a virtual jam, and maybe even recruit some of the other groovy reactors. All artists of every stripe are brothers and sisters, not competitors, and will survive the madness.
It's just that.... Nick either loves everything he listens to more or less equally, or are afraid to state negative opinions. I honestly still don't know what he REALLY likes or not...
@@progperljungman8218 LOL! Maybe so. I must admit to listening mostly to songs I already like. Most reactors won't come near to the long early masterpieces, but may play "Owner of a Lonely Heart". Lexi oftentimes seems more dialed into Yes' particular genius. But I don't see any of it as a competition. After all I was keen on prog 50 years ago and kept progressing beyond prog, which was its mission, according to that guy who just rode by on the Vespa shouting. Progressive is better than regressive. Cheers! Hallo! Hej! Tusen tak!
I'd class Weather Report as Modern Jazz more than Jazz Rock. It was the Mahavishnu Orchestra that put the Rock into Jazz. Miles though important to JM's resume had little input into the music that was to come. The line is clear. Tony Williams Lifetime, Devotion, Inner mounting flame Boom! The musical world is punched in the face. Weather Report, although great, never had that impact. I've never heard anyone say 'My brother put on I sing the body electric and I was stunned to the point, I knew my life had changed'.
It seems as if you have never heard Jack Johnson: Inprovised Funkrock some People call it. And Agharta is one of the hardest rocking Jazzrock Albums ever made. The Influence of this Music grew via Free Funk, Punk Jazz and NoWave ever further. In the 90ties not only Leo Smith and Henry Kaiser but also Bobby Previte lead Bands who furthered the Message of Jack Johnson and Agharta ; also Parliament/Funkadelic/P-Funk Allstars fueled their 3 to 4 Hour long Concerts of the 90 ties with these Sounds and Grooves.
@erikheddergott5514 Lmfao!!! Funk is not rock, it swings not foot stomps. McG did ok scratching creating textures and a color accent chard here and therelike Blood Ulmer and African dude in Ariza. Only Brit musician worth a damn there. He destroyed On the Corner so Miles fired him and got real funk guitarists.
@@donaldfrazell9540 The first embryonic Concert of Living Colour I saw was at the Jazzfestival Willisau 1986. It was more Sly Stone than „The Who“ back then. But as Sly and The Family Stone and Funkadelic rocked whenever they wanted so did Living Colour 1988 when their „Anglophilia“ broke through. I know quite some great Rock‘n‘Roll that Swings. I know some great Funk that willingly does not swing. The Idea that Miles Davis sacked some MCG gives me not more Infos then Lmfao. RUclips has not only People looking and listenig who are native English Speakers. So all this verbal Shortcuts sound strange to me. Is the famous Bo Diddley Beat Rock, Funk or Mambo? When Ornette Coleman uses the Beat it becomes hardrocking Free Funk. My favorite Beat is the „Killing Floor” Beat by Howlin Wolf with the great Hubert Sumlin on it. Is it Rock: Sure, is it funky like Hell: Definitely. Is Agharta Jazzrock? is it funky? Is Right off on Jack Johnson Rock? is it Funky? Is „Keep a Knocking“ by Little Richard Rock? is it Funky? Three Times YES! Every modern Day Rhythm in US American Music is unthinkable without the Caribeans, coz that id where this African Rhythms started riding European Formes like the Orishas ride the Dancers in the Perystal. Who is McG? And what does Lmfao mean. Im an old „Hip Loving“ Square from Europe whose funkiest Food he knows is Cheese Fondue. So please enlighten me.
@erikheddergott5514 lmfao more an more, I would say keep it coming but a overhyped hurricane about to hit. I am from the LBC, not some rhythmically challenged country. Miles told him to start his own band after On the Corner. Bye Felicia
MO is my favourite of the two in terms of its thrilling spiritual intensity ... but I suspect WR is the finer band in terms of its subtlety, elegance and compositional range. I agree with others here that jazz-rock is an inappropriate label for WR because (like Miles' BB) there's really no rock to speak of. But even without a rock sound , as Andy reminds us, WR could also be magnificently powerful and intense especially in their live recordings
I think that there is more connection between „Bitches Brew“, „Jack Johnson and Inner Mounting Flame. There is Jazzrock before these 3 and „Jazzrock Fusion“ after these 3. All three are a must for every Jazz, Funk or Rock Fan.
I'm not sure that you can really compare these two, as they have different feels if not genres, if you know what I mean. I submit to your greater knowledge with regard to this and therefore respect you PROGnosis. Unfortunately I never saw Weather Report, so can't offer my own comparison. I had a Flock album with Gerry Goodman on it before MO.
I agree with most of your ratings....and i fall a little more on the W.R. side. But, i love both also! Thing I'm struggling with: Mahavishnu. After the first three releases. I feel like They are McLaughlin and Co. Records. ....in which case i would want to give Joe all of the Zawinul Syndicate records , also... Edit: i do think that Johnny boy might have a stronger Masterpiece to Stinker ratio...some WR albums leave me kimd of luke warm (especially with hindsight and hearing where the Syndicate went.)
Listen and review albums: Ewa Demarczyk śpiewa piosenki Zygmunta Koniecznego 1967 Breakout - Na drugim brzegu tęczy 1969 Czesław Niemen - Enigmatic 1970 Marek Grechuta - Korowód 1971 Breakout - Blues 1971 Skaldowie - Krywań Krywań 1972 Czesław Niemen - Mourner's Rhapsody 1974 Brygada Kryzys - Brygada Kryzys 1982 Republika - Nowe sytuacje 1982 Maanam - Nocny patrol / Night patrol 1983 Lech Janerka - Historia podwodna 1983
Mahavishnu all the way. Weather Report never had anyone who exclusively played electric guitar in any of their various line-ups. (Zawinul occasionally played guitar amongst several other instruments). That pretty much removes the "rock" from jazz/rock fusion in my opinion, thereby disqualifying Weather Report from any contest with Mahavishnu. A better comparison would be WR vs RTF Mk. 1
You mean Mk.2/3, coz Mk.1 was the Moreira/Purim Band. The Mwandishi Hancock Records are not Jazzrock, nor are the first 2 Return to Forever or the first two Weather Reports. They are all „Electric Mood Jazz“ in the Tradition of „In a Silent Way“. Therefore regressing to before Bitches Brew. John Mc Laughling‘s Records on Douglas Records, The Lifetime Records, The Miroslav Vitous Record Mentioned in this Video and the Records Larry Coryell made are Jazzrock. Geata by Charles Lloyd, with Sitars and future Funkadelic Blackbyrd Mc Knight was Fusion. The first Headhunters Record was back then „received“ as Jazzrock and should become hugely Influential not only for Fusion but also Funk. Personallly I love nearly every Sly Stone Record better than Headhunters and a I sure love every Mwandishi Record more than Headhunters. I love the first 2 Records Herbie made with Material, but they are not Jazz at all. They are „Electro Boogie“, leading Sextant onto the Dancefloor.
Andy, I would like to see what the Superi-o-meter has to say about Phil Collins vs Peter Gabriel. Might make it tilt. Also Pat Metheny vs Allen Holdsworth. Jerry Goodman vs Jean-Luc Ponty. Let's get that thing working. :-)
Like both bands very much and not gonna say one's better than the other.They are really quite different to one another.These days I probably listen to more of WP than Mahavishnu.
Dont like to compare these two bands and in general don't like the comparison exercise with Music and with sports etc.. Having said that, you found a way to make this fun and was lmao with your silly voice at the beginning routine. As for comparing WR albums.. thats a tough one, My favorite couple of songs are on the 1981 Weather Report self titled album.. I know you think Heavy Weather is the end of an era but Volcano For Hire is probably my favorite WR song, NYC parts 1,2 &3 is phenomenal, When it was now, the ballads etc the sonority of that album is just very special to me and reminds me of NYC in the early 80's, but that is just my personal opinion. I sing the body electric is probably my favorite album...but favorite song hands down; Volcano For Hire
As a WR fan from Mysterious Traveller, onwards (not so impressed fro.m Mr Gone onwards) although I heard MO in the 1970s, I was unmoved by the latter. So yesterday I got a 5 album box set of MO. I like it but I cannot hear any jazz. Fast playing is not the same as jazz. Listen to Wayne Shorter's back catalogue and you will understand the continuation of jazz (and his post WR stuff). The musical language is utterly different. Cobham's Spectrum is in the same boat as MO. Love the Smurfs point. So while I understand the fun and education intended, all said there is no comparison to be made except on the basis of status. Great video all the same. Wow! Just hearing a MO tune that sounds like Confians!
I'm scrubbing Art Tatum, Charlie Parker, Johnny Griffin, Bud Powell, John Coltrane, Tal Farlow and a few others off my list of jazz musicians as they all play very fast too.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Well Weather Report played fast too. Having now listened to 5 MO albums, while I absolutely appreciate this video, I feel even stronger about the difference. A cynic might say that MO is Zappa sans humour. Ha ha!
You have a guitar heavy band vs. no guitar band. neither is a 'funk' band. Weather Report was more 'latin' percussion, but Biily C is a beast anoung beasts. Sax vs violin... I'm a sax player so Wayne Shorter for the win. Jaco was the only showman in both bands. MO is more of a jam/free soloist thing. I can listen to Black Market and Birds of Fire daily....forever, Visions.too.
This is a ridiculous venture...however, anyone would be hard pressed to match and or exceed the rigs that Joe Zawinul created and helped design. Luv both, Weather Report was long term more appealing to me. Also consider WR never had a guitarist. The musicians that Joe/Wayne hired and fired were with enormous talent - but Joe was like flowing lava he compromised not. Read the book "Elegant People" by Kurt Bianchi.
His early use of Oberheim polyphonics - when Wakeman was using the crappy Polymoog to produce dreadful sounds - was impressive. But what was the 6th keyboard in his 77 rig? To the left, 2 ARP 2600 keyboards on top of a Fender Rhodes. In front, an Oberheim polyphonic on top of a grand piano. To the right, what?
@@sealisa1398 Thanks. Edit: I've just googled it and it didn't have a keyboard. And there was definitely a 6th keyboard. (I'm assuming Mzuthra is a joke I don't get.)
I don't think lumping in the sales for Friday Night in San Francisco with Mahavishnu Orchestra sales makes sense, they are very different in types of music and band composition. Friday Night was three great guitarists on acoustic guitars, and one of those was on nylon strings. No bass, drums, keyboards, violins -- just acoustic guitars. Very different from the format of most Mahavishnu tracks.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer These vids have two sections, right? - the quantitative analysis by the SOM and then the discussion. There was no mention of Wayne (that I heard, listening at 2x now) in the quantitative analysis. Lots of mentions of JM and JH and JZ and JP (what's with all these J names...) but not a word about WS. So my conclusion - the quantitative analysis is fundamentally flawed because WS was not factored into the SOM's calculus and the results are invalid. Also, Hammer's Moog playing has not aged well - his bending style is cliched and has a high Cheese Factor. Listen to Joe's playing and point out anywhere that he is playing tired, cliched lines. Regarding album sales, where do you get your stats? I can't find much online.
Your voice in this video sounds like it is coming from a smartphone speaker. With just a very modest investment in better recording equipment you could massively improve the sound of the recording.
My entirely biased and non objective preference is for Weather Report. Can't figure which album is my favorite-it might be Sweetnighter. M.O. is indeed brilliant and does burn but listening to a bunch of M.O. gets tiresome. Part of my bias is because Weather Report was so polyrhythmic/funky.
Mahu is jaziRock, really Prog. Only Jeff Beck was good at it inBritland. WR is fusionJazz. It swings, and of the Western Hemisphere merging of Africa, none in Mahu, Europe and Caribbean. Now fusing various African and India traditions through electronics. Not rock
You underestimate the importance of Larry Cornell in the development of what you call jazz rock. Have you ever heard Spaces, his record with John McLaughlin? Or Tim Hardin’s record Bird On A Wire with Zawinul and Miroslav Vituos? You’re reducing some remarkable musicians to some blather about who’s better. Chalk and cheese, Mate.
One more hopefully more cogent comment from me. I have been a fan of these two bands since their inception and got to see both of them the first time they played in Boston. Both performances were incredible, Weather Report at the Jazz Workshop and MO at Boston Music Hall ( if memory serves). Miroslav V played a Fender Bass and seemed so incredibly comfortable with it. Both Zawinul and Hammer played Rhodes Electric Pianos with ring modulators and god knows what else. Wayne always seemed to be fully present as well as in his own world, on tenor and soprano. As for the Mahavishnu Orch., I had already seen Jerry Goodman with his previous band, The Flock, and the blend of his violin, Hammer’s keyboard and John Mc’s guitar on melodies was striking and beautiful. Cobham was on a drum riser behind a set of fiberglass drums. He played with amazing precision and power. Thank goodness for Rick Laird who kept the whole band grounded with perfect simple bass lines no matter what was going on above him. My initial mention of Larry Coryell stems from hearing “Spaces” prior to either band and the fact that it featured Cobham and Vitous as well as McLaughlin. Some folks have posited that the earlier Gary Burton record ( Duster) featuring Coryell was the start of jazz-fusion. There were many great bands in the late 60’s and early 70’s that were moving in that direction. Anyway, best of luck trying to make some money with your videos. I realize that the more provocative you are, the more attention and controversy you generate. I hope you’ll use the money to buy more albums. It looks like you might need some more.
@@toddswenson4915 I think it's more of a gimmick to find out. who was the first? One could also say that it was Szobel's uncle, Billy Graham, the inventor of double billing. "Jazz Ensembles" on a rock group's pass to a rock music audience. With all the "side effects" that you now have to fill 4000 - 8000 listeners with sound. And that a rock music audience certainly does not tolerate chamber concert jazz. Mahavishnu didn't appear on jazz radio at all in '71, but it did all the more on rock radio. That's why I asked you, did you first come into contact with MO and WR as a rock fan or jazz fan.
As a rock fan. i learned of John Mclaughlin as a fan of Cream. the first record that I saw with Jack Bruce on it after Cream was the Tony Williams Lifetime record called Turn It Over. @@scoop1178
@thevampyre2598 A kraut and an Irishman. Not a good start. Cobham gave some respect, though proggers love his first garbage album rather than the next two faaaar better. They are jazz and flow, Breckers and Bone sound great. Duke ok, but most disappointing concert ever was Duke, Cobham, Alphonso at the Roxy, Sunset Strip.
Not sure why nationalities are important but Jan Hammer is Czech, Rick Laird Irish yes; Jean-Luc Ponty - French obviously; Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, Narada Michael Walden, Gayle Moran, Ralphe Armstrong are all Americans; from those classic albums. Mahavishnu were still mainly a US-dominated band in terms of personnel. You had 3 European guys if you like in the first classic album line up, 2 Europeans in the second. Weather Report originally had Zawinul who was Austrian and Vitous who was also Czech.
@thevampyre2598 Euros, especially Brits rock. Western Hemisphere swings. The few exception prove the rule. Holland, Zawinul, NOHP, Ponty. About it. JaziRock is prog. RTF often were not fushionJazz so played with Jeff Beck who was legit. Americans hate screachy shredder, even Coryell, Stern Sancious are only loved by white kids. Bad,Blue Benson thru MilesSmiles guy are American. No shrill screamers but tone andcstring benders. Even rock Duane Allman waaaaay over tinny Page. But guitar waaaaay overrated. For Wankers.
@thevampyre2598 Name a single Euro horn player. No feel. Stick to Prog. Like ELP for a minute, but dead by 1975. Fusion after 1980. Steve Coleman, Brecker, Marsalis, yes Branford And Wynton. Yall can't criticize, got no ability. Many more
@@AndyEdwardsDrummerTheir last album. Wayne on only three tunes. I never heard much room for a guitar in Weather Report. Wayne was Wayne. An original and a most engaging composer and improvisor. And Joe was a maximalist with an orchestra at his fingertips. For me that combination big band/small combo with the electric keyboards and acoustic saxophones remains fresh and engaging fifty years later. Carlos is great but I don’t care for this particularly.
Weather Report is the evolution of a sax/piano quartet - add percussion and electric keyboards, why would there be guitar? Herbie did the same with Headhunters. Two of the greatest bands of all time.
In the early days the mahavishnu orchestra was a sensation and is still unrivaled today. Weather Report is nevertheless finer, and has a different approach. I love both bands!
The "Great to Crap Ratio".
Gonna use that one.
Well done sir.
JT
Well, having seen a lot of your videos, I'm not surprised by this (clearly objective) outcome :)
Weather Report has way more stuff and most of it is more enjoyable/easier than the constant "tension-release" thing Mahavishnu does. Not totally different than the difference between Crimson and Yes, actually.
I don't think that the 80s KC band had any of the tension-release that you're talking about, except for Indiscipline. I mean, the songs Discipline and Sheltering Sky are (even philosophically) totally the opposite. That said, I see your general point.
@@jdmresearch Not to be jerk, (here it comes! lol), but 80's Crimson is full of examples of "tension and release". The whole back half of Three of a Perfect Pair is nothing but.
NO CONTEST! MO always prevails. The Superior-O-Meter is never wrong!
What about Mahavishnu Orchestra versus return to forever? Weather reports another thing
Once again, the Superiometer proves its worth.
Tail Spinnin' is wonderful!
Love both bands. For WR, my favourite lineup was with Omar and Victor. Seeing Omar live was something special. I saw them live many times, but what was very special was having front row seats on a balcony right behind the band, directly behind Omar. What a perspective! Unfortunately never got to see MO.
I saw four MO tours, including the first one, the “Birds of Fire” tour at the Mississippi River Festival. Three and a half hours of genius - and approximately an hour was McLaughlin’s solos. I can still remember, note for note, a number of licks he never put on record. That’s how good he really was.
Thanks so much for the Joe Harriott reference-the next iteration of the English bop evolution overcome by Coltrane, but still worth listening to.
That was a tough one, with Weather Report, Mahavishnu, and Return To Forever all excellent, all had Mile's influence, and all releasing albums at the same time in the 70's...
Superb
Saw the UK debut of the MO alongside Yes at the Crystal Palace Bowl. Weather Report I saw (alongside Shakti and the George Duke Billy Cobham band FOR A QUID!) with the wonderful Heavy Weather line - up ( I recommend looking at the Montreux gig with this line- up).
Really appreciate how you handled this one, considering the huge MO fam you describe yourself as, giving WR overly fair consideration in your view.
The only things i would challenge are in the influence category and great to crap ratio. Where RTF, Eleventh House etc seem to obviously be affected by and reacting to the first MO album, WR i believe is more aloof to it. I dont think there is a clear connection to MO giving WR permission to play harder. Zawinul and Shorter come across as on their own planet/path with its own momentum, where others are free to join if they want. Yeah, they were pals etc, but WR seem to have their own maturity and identify apart from MO being a relative peer pressure.
Great to crap, we get into personal taste territory. In 1990 i was 17, well into Rush, but at the time, also into thrash metal and post punk. Was at a record store looking for some Slayer or Metallica cassettes when over the stores stereo system i heard Talking Drum into Larks 2 playing. Knocked me completely over. Asked the older clerk behind the counter about it and he took me on an intense and condensed musical journey over the next hour sampling tracks from Between Nothingness and Eternity, Relayer, Octopus, Larry Coryell at Village Gate, Mysterious Traveller, Hymn of the 7th Galxy and Foxtrot. Obviously i embarked on a completely different path than i was on. I looked for those bands in the cassette section and found a few. Birds Of Fire being my first MO album purchase and I Sing Body Electric being the first WR. Birds seemed like nothing less than a serious album. Only thing that bothered me was the acoustic stuff and nost of the soloing. But the compositions.. wow. As i quickly began acquiring more MO albums i noticed a theme with them. Other worldy compositions, wanky solos that had a cheesy vibe and seemed there for the sake of soloing as if out of habit, and goofy generic 6/8 blues gooves that were combined with an incredible compositional method which KIND OF made up for it. Mainly it appealed to the music scientist side of me while making another part of me cringe, like when my dad grabbed the mic at my wedding and did a Buddy Holly impression thinking he was a bad ass. Birds of Fire is the most "serious" and least cringy of their albums. Well, Between Nothingness too. But their albums are not all solid, serious no cringe material. WR on the other hand are pretty much all that. Serious, solid, no cringe etc.
I personally don't see what you seem to be calling "fuzak" (at least in regard to WR) as a bad thing. Maybe you accepting the cringey Mclaughlin/Ponty/Hammer solos (Goodman and Narada who is my favorite drummer are the only soloists with non-cringe integrity) and the generic blues-dad loping 6/8 grooves of MO as fine is how i see no problem with later 70s "fuzak" WR.
Great to crap ratio? WR maintains the seriousness and conceptual artistry going throughout each album. On a side note, Hymn is the only RTF album that approaches this intergrity. They are fun and i love them, but in the light of enjoying the intensity of their cheesy/goofiness.
Very entertaining Andy
Interesting to hear you mention Alphonso Johnson. He is one two bass players I love that I rarely hear mentioned. The other is Anthony Jackson. I understand they might not have had the impact of a Paul Chambers, Ron Carter or Jaco, but I just love their playing.
I know it sounds strange, since Alphonso Johnson decided to go on by himself, but I think with him Weather Report would have had similar Success then with Jaco Pastorious.
His strong Groove from Underneath had changed Weather Report towards the Jazzdance Workshops young Women went for back then. One Reason for the Success of Jazzrock Fusion and Funk Jazz was the Danceability of the Music of Weather Report, Crusaders and George Benson. In Montreux you really could see that FunkJazz/JazzRock Fusion had nearly as much Women in the Audience as the very Popular Brasilien Concerts.
One of the Reason of the Upcoming Fuzakification of Jazzrock or as we called it: „La Piscine de Montreux Sound“ was the Intrusion of Bossa Nova into the Jazzrock Fusion „Melange“.
Tom Scott and Lee Ritenour were emblematic for this „Saccharine Sweetness“.
The Music of John Mc Laughlin was not malleable enough for this kind of softening. From the Mid 70ties on Herbie Hancock, Chic Corea, Weather Report, George Benson and the Crusaders were defining „Funky Jazzrock Fusion“.
Inner Mounting Flame is a Mount Everest Record and it has Guitar on it.
So yes Mahavishnu is my Choice. Weather Report never really hooked me in.
MO for me every time! Listen to their, dare I say it, bootleg recordings. Miami, Cleveland and Berkeley. All live!
Few points, good sir (from Birmingham?:-
1. As pointed out by others, WR cannot be called jazz-rock for the obvious lack of guitar. Better description would be "fusion".
2. You should have added "Pretentiousness" as a category and MO would have won a stack of negative points, JM being the prime culprit; ask Jan, Billy and Jerry.
3. WR productions should have scored much more points, if only because JZ was a sublime sculptor of soundscapes. He redesigned/reconfigured synthesizers.
4. MO, much like RTF, were more wham-bam-speed freaks, rather than chiseling each note to perfection, allowing a more space-as-music approach, of which WR were masters.
5. Soul!? WR hands down!
6. Balance. The JZ/WS spiritual edifice gave WR unrivaled equanimity, which was sadly disturbed by WS's retirement. MO was mostly a lop-sided JM vehicle, soaring in some places but spluttering in most.
7. Musical journey of the chief protagonists. JM is largely basking in past achievements, while JZ reached a spiritual nadir in later years, specifically with the Z Syndicate and finding solace and expression in indigenous music, laughably called "3rd World".
I believe Scott Kinsey would bear me out on most, if not all, points.
Overall: WR 9/10; MO 7/10
Come come, Mr. Edwards! (Not Adams!) We both know the outcome was a foregone conclusion, why don't you admit it? Seriously - two great bands and appreciate you pointing out the common denominators. I thought it was a bit chalk and cheese for a comparison, but you pulled it together. Well done, old bean.
Fantastic . I use the Prog-o-meter all the time, and now. The Superi-o-meter will help me a great deal. I wonder ..wendy..wanda.. if any of my own unauthorized inputs will taint future ( past or even present ) outcomes?
You need to set up a poll for this sort of thing Andy.
Coulda come to the same conclusion much quicker with the one correct, most efficient question -- Which band had electric guitar?
J/K -- of course I'm one of those who is on the same page about these comparisons being meaningless or impossible; but as Pete Pardo says, a very good excuse to talk about the music!
:) be careful what you wish for ?..So encouraging to get out and listen to these bands over and over .. keep on keepin’ on ..
"...you shouldn't wish for what you want."
-Andy Edwards
-2023
Everything you say is so true and so well said - except for comments about Weather Report (1982). For me it represents the high point in terms of cronky jazz [that is the way they make detritus into something beautiful, somewhat like Zappa, only you always get the impression Zappa is sneering - sort of political, too. But with Weather Report, they turn the everyday trash into jewels].
And with Weather Report 1982, you have pure cronk with Volcano for Hire and peculiar NY Suite. But having done all of that and one or two sweet ballady things, they then produce Dara Factor II. What a unique concept that is! Controlled within a framework throughout with all these glorious explosions taking place - beautiful statements by Jaco Pastorius and Warne Shorter - Zawanul adjusting the explosive potential from time to time, but most impressive, behind it all, Pete Erskine playing (for me, admittedly a dumbass non-drummer) one of the most colourful and quietly powerful of backbeats - the final (album list) track of the classic Weather Report incarnation.
They didn't make a bad album
@20:04 when i think of influences in the 80's,Andy did you know that Jan Hammer did the Theme to Miami Vice😎💚👍
Don't worry, Andrew. When you normalize the score against normal music the Superi-o-meter would rank them both as 10 because of the limited resolution. Only when comparing two great bands that are really close in their level of superirity, do we need a clear-cut device to sort out the conflict. Since this is the only superi-o-meter on earth it's hard to tell if other similar devices also have this limited resolution. Great video and I loved it. Thanks.
What fun! Mahavishnu for me too. I'm currently watching Frank Zappa in Barcelona, and thinking, what on earth could rival that? Only Gentle Giant and Todd Rundgren, both of whom I have seen live. (I saw Frank in Stafford, my home town.) Hint.
MO opened for FZ in the early days. His drummers still gush over Billy C, J Luc Ponty had his hands full with Jerry G. Monsters, all.
@@curtisvalle5141 yes, I saw the interviews with Ruth and Ralph on Terry Bozzio's YT channel.
I'm a massive fan of Wayne Shorter, with Andrew Hill my favorite jazz composer ever but I've always thought that in terms of compositions his best work was almost all outside Weather report for some reason. Being it with Miles Davis (to me, the second quintet is the greatest band of all times), Lee Morgan, Wynton Kelly, Art Blakey, Milton Nascimento or after in his solo work (that masterpiece that is High life in particular, but also Atlantis and some of his more recent stuff too) it's all superior to the tunes he wrote with WR (altough he wrote some good stuff there too, like Plaza real or Elegant people).
Both bands went through so many changes, you really have to evaluate each incarnation separately. Still, it's a fun video.
Well, same thing with Yes and especially Crimson (see his 1st video). I'm sure in a few months Andy will do something more specific with different incarnations (for instance, King Crimson 73 vs King Crimson 81?), when the Superi-o-meter is better calibrated.
Tasks for Superiometer: Presley vs Beatles, Led Zeppelin vs Pink Floyd, Hendrix vs Miles Davis, Nirvana vs Bjork, Armstrong vs Ellington, The Doors vs Janis Joplin, Zappa vs Dylan.
Superio-meter might malfunction for this one
Naked John McLaughlin sitting on that shelf within eyeshot of the Superi-O-Meter skewed the results. I want a recount!
I first thought that your premise was too silly, but after watching I have to commend you on your rational reasoning, I was very impressed. I did agree with most of what you say in this. I want to add one element though, MO compared to WR has not continued to stay as listenable as they were. I find them harder to listen to these days because 'it just too much' energy too often, where WR has more 'air' and lets you breathe.
Back in the mid/late 70's i loved those 2 bands (and RTF) equally, but as the decades have gone by, Weather Report is easily the top of the pile for me.
Has the Band a Guitarplayer?
Yes: 90 Points of 100
No: 10 Point of 100.
Are there enough Points resting to be distributed?
Yes? No!
No? Yes!
Is this fair? No!
Did I say that I am Guitarfreak!
I could not believe Mahavishnu sold more records than WR and my hunch was right;
Best selling album Mahavishnu 'birds of fire' sold 500,000 copies
Best selling album Weather Report 'heavy weather' sold 1 million copies
Considering WR made 14 official albums and Mahavishnu only 6, its fair to say WR won that category !
Weather Report has some, imo, better live recordings than _8:30__._ On some of them Alex Acuna [who otherwise played percussion in the band] is on drums. I love his “airy” style, things are just “floating” when he is playing live😊 He was the drummer on _Heavy Weather._ Nice to see him on the thumbnail too.
WR got funkier, yes. MO Can’t Stand Your Funk on Visions, but if they would have had a longer life, they would have gone funkier too.
Gotta go with The Mahavishnu Orchestra. I also love the Trio Of Doom, McLaughlin, Jaco and Tony Williams.
I respect MO , especially Visions with Narada and was of course blown away by Cobham's speed and super clean style...but Weather Report with Jaco and Wayne Shorter is so subtle and somehow more sexy. If I want to hear guitar Allan Holdsworth is much more interesting to my ear...but in the end they are all masters.
Ahhh Zep calibration. I was wondering how you were able to do it . Good thinking!
Next week: Ford Focus vs A fish
Weather Report has so little rock in it, I don't consider it to be Jazz Rock. Their sound is organic and there is very little showboating (except for Jaco live). I can't tie them to fuzak either. They are in a class of their own.
they were world music proto
There were five Fusion bands. The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Return To Forever, Herbie Hancock's Headhunters and Larry Coryell's Eleventh House. The leaders of the first four all came out of Miles' band. Miles didn't want to go electric, but he was pressured by the record company. In addition to infinite Search, later reissued as Mountain In The Clouds are Joe Farrell Quartet and Spaces by Larry Coryell, which both feature McLaughlin and Chick. I would direct you to John McLaughlin's 17 CD box set The Montreux Concerts. The first two discs are the band heard on Visions Of The Emerald Beyond playing all the material from Apocalypse, stripped down without the large orchestra. There is also a release called Trio Of Doom which is McLaughlin with Jaco and Tony Williams.
Miles poached funk genius Henderson from Wonders himself, asked Herbie to play fender Rhodes, recognised the material McLaughlin was producing, adored rock culture and Hendrex, and electronics- he was curious about everything, fused AfroCuban drumming with Stockhausen and Indian drone, encouraged Pete Cosey. Miles was also tired of his own licks and developed a new vovabulary with electric trumpet with wahwah pedal. Going rock was Miles' idea.
Miles did not want to go Electric?
Miles was reluctant to play Rock Venues the Way Charles Lloyd did. But Clive Davis, Head of CBS back then encouraged him to do so. And Betty Davis dressed him up appropriately.
Weather Report- I Sing The Body Electric. Great record. Two of my favorite bands…….i would have given it to them, but I do absolutely love Vision Of The Emerald Beyond.
Andy,(My 1st Reply)there's a video about Metallica'a Kill 'Em All(Lp i own😉) done in the style of ZZ Top,but i thought about Kill'Em All in the style of Mahavishnu Orchestra(I own a couple of their Lps) that'll be ultimate😍💚👍
Fun😎
"Maybe the day will come when teenagers can trust a group with a balding piano player" (1972)
Incomparable cannot be compared. If only with the PiedPiper of Hamelin.
Is this the beginning of the “Edwards Awards”?
Re: influence. Ask Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson.... How the Mahavishnu O influenced Selling England and Close to the Edge is well documented. I can give you the references. Also, there's indirect evidence suggesting that they were influential on the 72-74 period, especially Larks. This is all what I need...
Wanted to give you a heads-up that Nick of NicknLex just gave you a shout-out and played some of your early music on a prog marathon. I suggested you two should do a virtual jam, and maybe even recruit some of the other groovy reactors. All artists of every stripe are brothers and sisters, not competitors, and will survive the madness.
It's just that.... Nick either loves everything he listens to more or less equally, or are afraid to state negative opinions. I honestly still don't know what he REALLY likes or not...
@@progperljungman8218 Well he seems to like you well enough.
@@MisterWondrous See, even me... 😉
@@progperljungman8218 LOL! Maybe so. I must admit to listening mostly to songs I already like. Most reactors won't come near to the long early masterpieces, but may play "Owner of a Lonely Heart". Lexi oftentimes seems more dialed into Yes' particular genius. But I don't see any of it as a competition. After all I was keen on prog 50 years ago and kept progressing beyond prog, which was its mission, according to that guy who just rode by on the Vespa shouting. Progressive is better than regressive. Cheers! Hallo! Hej! Tusen tak!
Had conversation with John M., Billy C., Jan H., Jerry G., Joe Z., and Miroslov V. Final score 4 vs 2 for MO. haha
Blasphemy!!!! Love you man.
I'd class Weather Report as Modern Jazz more than Jazz Rock. It was the Mahavishnu Orchestra that put the Rock into Jazz. Miles though important to JM's resume had little input into
the music that was to come. The line is clear. Tony Williams Lifetime, Devotion, Inner mounting flame Boom! The musical world is punched in the face.
Weather Report, although great, never had that impact. I've never heard anyone say 'My brother put on I sing the body electric and I was stunned to the point, I knew my life had changed'.
No one cares about Brit JaziRock or guitar wankers in the Western Hemisphere. It ain't jazz. Or relevant
It seems as if you have never heard Jack Johnson: Inprovised Funkrock some People call it. And Agharta is one of the hardest rocking Jazzrock Albums ever made. The Influence of this Music grew via Free Funk, Punk Jazz and NoWave ever further. In the 90ties not only Leo Smith and Henry Kaiser but also Bobby Previte lead Bands who furthered the Message of Jack Johnson and Agharta ; also Parliament/Funkadelic/P-Funk Allstars fueled their 3 to 4 Hour long Concerts of the 90 ties with these Sounds and Grooves.
@erikheddergott5514
Lmfao!!!
Funk is not rock, it swings not foot stomps. McG did ok scratching creating textures and a color accent chard here and therelike Blood Ulmer and African dude in Ariza. Only Brit musician worth a damn there. He destroyed On the Corner so Miles fired him and got real funk guitarists.
@@donaldfrazell9540 The first embryonic Concert of Living Colour I saw was at the Jazzfestival Willisau 1986. It was more Sly Stone than „The Who“ back then. But as Sly and The Family Stone and Funkadelic rocked whenever they wanted so did Living Colour 1988 when their „Anglophilia“ broke through.
I know quite some great Rock‘n‘Roll that Swings. I know some great Funk that willingly does not swing.
The Idea that Miles Davis sacked some MCG gives me not more Infos then Lmfao. RUclips has not only People looking and listenig who are native English Speakers. So all this verbal Shortcuts sound strange to me.
Is the famous Bo Diddley Beat Rock, Funk or Mambo? When Ornette Coleman uses the Beat it becomes hardrocking Free Funk.
My favorite Beat is the „Killing Floor” Beat by Howlin Wolf with the great Hubert Sumlin on it. Is it Rock: Sure, is it funky like Hell: Definitely. Is Agharta Jazzrock? is it funky? Is Right off on Jack Johnson Rock? is it Funky? Is „Keep a Knocking“ by Little Richard Rock? is it Funky?
Three Times YES!
Every modern Day Rhythm in US American Music is unthinkable without the Caribeans, coz that id where this African Rhythms started riding European Formes like the Orishas ride the Dancers in the Perystal. Who is McG? And what does Lmfao mean. Im an old „Hip Loving“ Square from Europe whose funkiest Food he knows is Cheese Fondue. So please enlighten me.
@erikheddergott5514 lmfao more an more, I would say keep it coming but a overhyped hurricane about to hit.
I am from the LBC, not some rhythmically challenged country. Miles told him to start his own band after On the Corner. Bye Felicia
MO is my favourite of the two in terms of its thrilling spiritual intensity ... but I suspect WR is the finer band in terms of its subtlety, elegance and compositional range. I agree with others here that jazz-rock is an inappropriate label for WR because (like Miles' BB) there's really no rock to speak of. But even without a rock sound , as Andy reminds us, WR could also be magnificently powerful and intense especially in their live recordings
I think that there is more connection between „Bitches Brew“, „Jack Johnson and Inner Mounting Flame. There is Jazzrock before these 3 and „Jazzrock Fusion“ after these 3. All three are a must for every Jazz, Funk or Rock Fan.
Jack Johnson is an all-time favorite...good mention.
@@sealisa1398 Mine too!
Decision of the court: Best Video , watch it twice and it will become clear.
At Drummer i have to go with Billy Cobham
I'm not sure that you can really compare these two, as they have different feels if not genres, if you know what I mean. I submit to your greater knowledge with regard to this and therefore respect you PROGnosis. Unfortunately I never saw Weather Report, so can't offer my own comparison. I had a Flock album with Gerry Goodman on it before MO.
Return to Forever vs Tony Williams Lifetime!
Rush vs Genesis!
I agree with most of your ratings....and i fall a little more on the W.R. side. But, i love both also!
Thing I'm struggling with: Mahavishnu. After the first three releases. I feel like They are McLaughlin and Co. Records.
....in which case i would want to give Joe all of the Zawinul Syndicate records , also...
Edit: i do think that Johnny boy might have a stronger Masterpiece to Stinker ratio...some WR albums leave me kimd of luke warm (especially with hindsight and hearing where the Syndicate went.)
Listen and review albums:
Ewa Demarczyk śpiewa piosenki Zygmunta Koniecznego 1967
Breakout - Na drugim brzegu tęczy 1969
Czesław Niemen - Enigmatic 1970
Marek Grechuta - Korowód 1971
Breakout - Blues 1971
Skaldowie - Krywań Krywań 1972
Czesław Niemen - Mourner's Rhapsody 1974
Brygada Kryzys - Brygada Kryzys 1982
Republika - Nowe sytuacje 1982
Maanam - Nocny patrol / Night patrol 1983
Lech Janerka - Historia podwodna 1983
I love Weather Report but prefer The Mahavishnu Orchestra. MO is my favourite band of all time.
Mahavishnu all the way. Weather Report never had anyone who exclusively played electric guitar in any of their various line-ups.
(Zawinul occasionally played guitar amongst several other instruments). That pretty much removes the "rock" from jazz/rock fusion in my opinion, thereby disqualifying Weather Report from any contest with Mahavishnu. A better comparison would be WR vs RTF Mk. 1
You mean Mk.2/3, coz Mk.1 was the Moreira/Purim Band.
The Mwandishi Hancock Records are not Jazzrock, nor are the first 2 Return to Forever or the first two Weather Reports. They are all „Electric Mood Jazz“ in the Tradition of „In a Silent Way“. Therefore regressing to before Bitches Brew.
John Mc Laughling‘s Records on Douglas Records, The Lifetime Records, The Miroslav Vitous Record Mentioned in this Video and the Records Larry Coryell made are Jazzrock. Geata by Charles Lloyd, with Sitars and future Funkadelic Blackbyrd Mc Knight was Fusion.
The first Headhunters Record was back then „received“ as Jazzrock and should become hugely Influential not only for Fusion but also Funk.
Personallly I love nearly every Sly Stone Record better than Headhunters and a I sure love every Mwandishi Record more than Headhunters.
I love the first 2 Records Herbie made with Material, but they are not Jazz at all. They are „Electro Boogie“, leading Sextant onto the Dancefloor.
Andy, I would like to see what the Superi-o-meter has to say about Phil Collins vs Peter Gabriel. Might make it tilt. Also Pat Metheny vs Allen Holdsworth. Jerry Goodman vs Jean-Luc Ponty. Let's get that thing working. :-)
Pete plus Phil together...too good / The early days set a high standard
To me Mahavishnu was the most maverick and radical but Weather Report was clearly the most influential.
Like both bands very much and not gonna say one's better than the other.They are really quite different to one another.These days I probably listen to more of WP than Mahavishnu.
Dont like to compare these two bands and in general don't like the comparison exercise with Music and with sports etc.. Having said that, you found a way to make this fun and was lmao with your silly voice at the beginning routine. As for comparing WR albums.. thats a tough one, My favorite couple of songs are on the 1981 Weather Report self titled album.. I know you think Heavy Weather is the end of an era but Volcano For Hire is probably my favorite WR song, NYC parts 1,2 &3 is phenomenal, When it was now, the ballads etc the sonority of that album is just very special to me and reminds me of NYC in the early 80's, but that is just my personal opinion. I sing the body electric is probably my favorite album...but favorite song hands down; Volcano For Hire
Objectivity and coffee
As a WR fan from Mysterious Traveller, onwards (not so impressed fro.m Mr Gone onwards) although I heard MO in the 1970s, I was unmoved by the latter. So yesterday I got a 5 album box set of MO. I like it but I cannot hear any jazz. Fast playing is not the same as jazz. Listen to Wayne Shorter's back catalogue and you will understand the continuation of jazz (and his post WR stuff). The musical language is utterly different. Cobham's Spectrum is in the same boat as MO. Love the Smurfs point. So while I understand the fun and education intended, all said there is no comparison to be made except on the basis of status. Great video all the same. Wow! Just hearing a MO tune that sounds like Confians!
I'm scrubbing Art Tatum, Charlie Parker, Johnny Griffin, Bud Powell, John Coltrane, Tal Farlow and a few others off my list of jazz musicians as they all play very fast too.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Well Weather Report played fast too. Having now listened to 5 MO albums, while I absolutely appreciate this video, I feel even stronger about the difference. A cynic might say that MO is Zappa sans humour. Ha ha!
The answer is of course The Dixie Dregs.
Why is this an important question, personally I think both MO and WR are both great bands.
Both groups are the top of the jazz world. I can't decide which is better.
McLock or McLoff, old chap?
You have a guitar heavy band vs. no guitar band. neither is a 'funk' band. Weather Report was more 'latin' percussion, but Biily C is a beast anoung beasts.
Sax vs violin... I'm a sax player so Wayne Shorter for the win. Jaco was the only showman in both bands. MO is more of a jam/free soloist thing. I can listen to Black Market and Birds of Fire daily....forever, Visions.too.
@curtisvalle5141 Mind you don't get splinters off that fence.
Where can I get a Superiormeter?
I'm tired of my wife telling me Prog sucks.
I could see which is best, prog or your wife....or perhaps not. either way you lose
This is a ridiculous venture...however, anyone would be hard pressed to match and or exceed the rigs that Joe Zawinul created and helped design. Luv both, Weather Report was long term more appealing to me. Also consider WR never had a guitarist. The musicians that Joe/Wayne hired and fired were with enormous talent - but Joe was like flowing lava he compromised not.
Read the book "Elegant People" by Kurt Bianchi.
His early use of Oberheim polyphonics - when Wakeman was using the crappy Polymoog to produce dreadful sounds - was impressive.
But what was the 6th keyboard in his 77 rig?
To the left, 2 ARP 2600 keyboards on top of a Fender Rhodes.
In front, an Oberheim polyphonic on top of a grand piano.
To the right, what?
@@martinspencer1618 An ARP Little Brother, below that is Furman pre-amp, far right is Mzuthra.
@@sealisa1398 Thanks.
Edit: I've just googled it and it didn't have a keyboard. And there was definitely a 6th keyboard.
(I'm assuming Mzuthra is a joke I don't get.)
@@martinspencer1618 no intended joke, documented in book. Who knows?
Wayne Shorter, how can you take so long to mention.
Wayne puts Weather Report over the top.
He always looked really, really pissed-off.
Ibanez on the wall. not bass!
But Keyboards i give Joe Zawinul a very close over Jan Hammer
I don't think you have a superio-o-meter Andy....what are you playing with,?w2here can you buy an sup-o-meter
I don't think lumping in the sales for Friday Night in San Francisco with Mahavishnu Orchestra sales makes sense, they are very different in types of music and band composition. Friday Night was three great guitarists on acoustic guitars, and one of those was on nylon strings. No bass, drums, keyboards, violins -- just acoustic guitars. Very different from the format of most Mahavishnu tracks.
I didn't, even without that of LDS they have sold more than WR
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer What is or who is LDS?
@@michaeljozwiak25 Love Devotion Surrender
Have you heard about a man called Wayne Shorter? No mention in the first 20 minutes and I quit...
ruclips.net/video/3VCcxAlosJY/видео.html
That's a nice tribute to Wayne, but he was woefully under represented in this video.
@@dave_manley I'm not here to represent anything.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Oh please....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer These vids have two sections, right? - the quantitative analysis by the SOM and then the discussion. There was no mention of Wayne (that I heard, listening at 2x now) in the quantitative analysis. Lots of mentions of JM and JH and JZ and JP (what's with all these J names...) but not a word about WS. So my conclusion - the quantitative analysis is fundamentally flawed because WS was not factored into the SOM's calculus and the results are invalid. Also, Hammer's Moog playing has not aged well - his bending style is cliched and has a high Cheese Factor. Listen to Joe's playing and point out anywhere that he is playing tired, cliched lines. Regarding album sales, where do you get your stats? I can't find much online.
for reasons beyond my comprehension I never liked Mahavishnu, found them quite boring while WR excite me in almost any of their many line-ups….
Your voice in this video sounds like it is coming from a smartphone speaker. With just a very modest investment in better recording equipment you could massively improve the sound of the recording.
Yes
Minimal rant, good balanced view, very little eye popping indignation, so, barely a flicker on the bonkers-o-meter!
My entirely biased and non objective preference is for Weather Report. Can't figure which album is my favorite-it might be Sweetnighter. M.O. is indeed brilliant and does burn but listening to a bunch of M.O. gets tiresome. Part of my bias is because Weather Report was so polyrhythmic/funky.
Pitch bend.. Joe don't pitch bend
It'd be amazing if you could interview Narada Michael Walden!
I have Sheldon
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I will track it down!
Mahu is jaziRock, really Prog. Only Jeff Beck was good at it inBritland.
WR is fusionJazz. It swings, and of the Western Hemisphere merging of Africa, none in Mahu, Europe and Caribbean. Now fusing various African and India traditions through electronics.
Not rock
Polls are a waste of time, so not going to watch this, but I will provide you with a much needed answer:
RETURN TO FOREVER
You Welcome :-)
You underestimate the importance of Larry Cornell in the development of what you call jazz rock. Have you ever heard Spaces, his record with John McLaughlin? Or Tim Hardin’s record Bird On A Wire with Zawinul and Miroslav Vituos? You’re reducing some remarkable musicians to some blather about who’s better. Chalk and cheese, Mate.
I know Chris Cornell...love him
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer lol too bad you cant 't see thumbs down anymore
One more hopefully more cogent comment from me. I have been a fan of these two bands since their inception and got to see both of them the first time they played in Boston. Both performances were incredible, Weather Report at the Jazz Workshop and MO at Boston Music Hall ( if memory serves). Miroslav V played a Fender Bass and seemed so incredibly comfortable with it. Both Zawinul and Hammer played Rhodes Electric Pianos with ring modulators and god knows what else. Wayne always seemed to be fully present as well as in his own world, on tenor and soprano. As for the Mahavishnu Orch., I had already seen Jerry Goodman with his previous band, The Flock, and the blend of his violin, Hammer’s keyboard and John Mc’s guitar on melodies was striking and beautiful. Cobham was on a drum riser behind a set of fiberglass drums. He played with amazing precision and power. Thank goodness for Rick Laird who kept the whole band grounded with perfect simple bass lines no matter what was going on above him.
My initial mention of Larry Coryell stems from hearing “Spaces” prior to either band and the fact that it featured Cobham and Vitous as well as McLaughlin. Some folks have posited that the earlier Gary Burton record ( Duster) featuring Coryell was the start of jazz-fusion. There were many great bands in the late 60’s and early 70’s that were moving in that direction. Anyway, best of luck trying to make some money with your videos. I realize that the more provocative you are, the more attention and controversy you generate. I hope you’ll use the money to buy more albums. It looks like you might need some more.
@@toddswenson4915 I think it's more of a gimmick to find out. who was the first? One could also say that it was Szobel's uncle, Billy Graham, the inventor of double billing.
"Jazz Ensembles" on a rock group's pass to a rock music audience.
With all the "side effects" that you now have to fill 4000 - 8000 listeners with sound. And that a rock music audience certainly does not tolerate chamber concert jazz.
Mahavishnu didn't appear on jazz radio at all in '71, but it did all the more on rock radio.
That's why I asked you, did you first come into contact with MO and WR as a rock fan or jazz fan.
As a rock fan. i learned of John Mclaughlin as a fan of Cream. the first record that I saw with Jack Bruce on it after Cream was the Tony Williams Lifetime record called Turn It Over. @@scoop1178
Capitalism vs. Socialism on the Superi-o-meter is a bad idea.
Democratic Socialism.
Brit rockers trying to grow with hired help, or worldly dudes of Soul.
Hmmmm..
Only McLaughlin in Mahavishnu was British.
@thevampyre2598 A kraut and an Irishman. Not a good start. Cobham gave some respect, though proggers love his first garbage album rather than the next two faaaar better. They are jazz and flow, Breckers and Bone sound great. Duke ok, but most disappointing concert ever was Duke, Cobham, Alphonso at the Roxy, Sunset Strip.
Not sure why nationalities are important but Jan Hammer is Czech, Rick Laird Irish yes; Jean-Luc Ponty - French obviously; Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, Narada Michael Walden, Gayle Moran, Ralphe Armstrong are all Americans; from those classic albums. Mahavishnu were still mainly a US-dominated band in terms of personnel. You had 3 European guys if you like in the first classic album line up, 2 Europeans in the second.
Weather Report originally had Zawinul who was Austrian and Vitous who was also Czech.
@thevampyre2598 Euros, especially Brits rock. Western Hemisphere swings.
The few exception prove the rule.
Holland, Zawinul, NOHP, Ponty.
About it.
JaziRock is prog. RTF often were not fushionJazz so played with Jeff Beck who was legit.
Americans hate screachy shredder, even Coryell, Stern Sancious are only loved by white kids. Bad,Blue Benson thru MilesSmiles guy are American. No shrill screamers but tone andcstring benders. Even rock Duane Allman waaaaay over tinny Page.
But guitar waaaaay overrated. For Wankers.
@thevampyre2598 Name a single Euro horn player. No feel. Stick to Prog. Like ELP for a minute, but dead by 1975. Fusion after 1980. Steve Coleman, Brecker, Marsalis, yes Branford And Wynton. Yall can't criticize, got no ability.
Many more
Weather Report lacks a guitarist.
Somehow refreshing
They had one on This is This...Carlos Santana
@@AndyEdwardsDrummerTheir last album. Wayne on only three tunes. I never heard much room for a guitar in Weather Report. Wayne was Wayne. An original and a most engaging composer and improvisor. And Joe was a maximalist with an orchestra at his fingertips. For me that combination big band/small combo with the electric keyboards and acoustic saxophones remains fresh and engaging fifty years later. Carlos is great but I don’t care for this particularly.
Weather Report is the evolution of a sax/piano quartet - add percussion and electric keyboards, why would there be guitar? Herbie did the same with Headhunters. Two of the greatest bands of all time.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Carlos was not a band member
6-4 ? That Superi-o-meter is obviously broken. You got the cheap chinese model didn't you?
Beta Superi-o-meter is pretty buggy.