My experience has been that the sound is 80% or so head choice and tuning. The difference between cheap and expensive drums is turning range and stability. When I had a cheap kit, it required constant tuning and was more particular about how it was tuned. With my professional kit, the tuning holds for months and it takes a larger variety of tunings well. In short, more expensive drums won't make you sound better; they just make it easier to sound good.
The other issue I found with cheap kits---bad bearing edges. *IF* a cheap kit had properly cut edges, there really is no need for spending a ton on a high end kit. A lot of studios i have been to use a yamaha stage custom. Not even the newer birch models, but the older mixed wood falkata kits. A far cry from DW and Craviatto.
@@scottlowell493 - I put some pinstripes on a Percussion Plus, not that bad. The average listener has no clue, either way, as long as the tuning is not obnoxious. The cymbals are really important, though. Another thing is durability. A cheap kit will fall apart a lot quicker than a Pearl Masters or DW.
why would the cheaper ones be any worse in holding the tuning? if the hardware is not complete junk and properly maintained, there should be no problems
As a professional backline tech and session drummer, I can say that the 100% main difference between cheap and expensive is reliability. Cheap drums are hit or miss. They might sound incredible or they might sound weak and dry. They might be easy to tune or they might have uneven bearing edges or rims. They might survive being set up and torn down 500 times or they might be falling apart after 20. Expensive drums are way more consistent in they way they sound, the way you tune them, how good the tuning holds up under different circumstances such as heavy playing or varying temepatures and how long the hardware survives being thrown around. Also expensive kits tend to have more QOL engineering solutions making it faster to set them up and tear them down. So the question you gotta ask yourself is if you can afford - both monetarily and mentally - to spend 30-60 minutes extra on a random basis fixing issues in the studio or on tour. Or if the price jump investing in something more premium is worth it to you
All true (and outside the scope of this video). I just wanted to demonstrate the differences in sound/tone only between 'good' and 'not-so-good' drums for people who might be wondering, or who might have developed their opinions solely on price tag. Yes, there are many other comparisons to be made: ease of tuning, staying in tune, durability, function/sturdiness of hardware, responsiveness to dynamics, etc. Nice drums pretty much rule in all these additional categories.... but beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and I thought there would surely be some people who would be surprised by a comparison of purely the sonics of each. Thanks so much for being here and sharing!
Awesome, thank you! I'm so glad to here it. People think I talk too much (they're right!), but I so enjoy the minutiae, personally, that I find it hard not to speak so. I always hope that my effort is helpful for other people to better understand the instrument they play (or record, mix, etc.). Thanks so much for being here!
I really am glad you exist and that you're so obsessive and knowledgeable where drums are concerned. Excellent work as always. It seems to be the case that so long as they're pretty close to round and the bearing edges aren't terrible, if they've got good quality heads on them, they're tuned well, and they're in a half decent room, any drums will sound like drums, and they'll sound good. Subtle though it is, it's noticeable that the DW kit just provides a bit more of everything - volume, attack, low end resonance and warmth, and high end cut.
Hey thanks for making the time to make these videos they’re entertaining and educational and probably something else that I don’t know what the word is for
The snares are the most telling part for me (well, toms are close). The cheap snare is dull and poppy (no body), while the DW sounds more complete. Toms are similar, they the cheap ones lack life, and the DWs are full and clear.
I work in the drum dept. of a music store. This video reinforces the approach I take with many of my customers. The huge price difference between high end and low end drums is not always justified when it comes to tone. Tuning and head selection is key. Granted, higher end drums can stand up better over time and once a player has achieved a high level of playing ability, he or she may notice some sonic improvements. Nonetheless, thanks so much for the video, Joel! I always look forward to what I might learn next from you based on your years of experience. Appreciated!
Thanks for the comments. You got me thinking... a entry-level kit can cost as little as $300 brand new, but the heads are gonna be crap. If it's a 5-pc kit (say.. 22/10/12/16 with a snare) new GOOD heads can add another $250 making the kit sound so tons better, but nearly doubling the cost! I don't really have a point here, necessarily, just thinking out loud, so to speak. At what price point do quality heads become part of the equation? Seems like most mid-level kits still have Remo UT or other cheap heads on them. At what price point (for a 5-pc like mentioned above) do good heads come included?
In earlier days, I often thought, and joked, that I was so bad at tuning that my drums sounded like pizza boxes. Now I'm wondering what a set of actual pizza boxes could be made to sound like.
@@johnbmx4christ I've been thinking about doing that. Kinda' hoping to find some square shapes that can be made to look like pizza boxes, but will hold up and be easy to trigger with.
I giggle relatively cheap drums (Yamaha Stage Custom Birch), they sound exactly like the Recording Custom Drums of the 80s. Pinstripes or coated Emperors, bottom heads tuned down. Perfect.
Excellent presentation! I enjoyed this a bunch! Long ago and far away, I was once a drummer, but was probably less than average so I didn't try to follow that career path. There have been times when I wish I had. I occasionally listen to drum channels, and this is one of the best that I've had the pleasure of seeing. I should have done a blind test, but to my old ears, the DW kit had what I'd call a richer, warmer sound all the way around, especially the snare. I (maybe because I used to play in small bands) actually prefer just the room mic to the individual, close mics.
I know, right?! I just find myself gravitating toward the charm of just about any drum -- even cheap ones. Just a different, but often very cool breed compared to more expensive options.
Not a DW fan but the toms had more resonance and the snare to my ears was nicer sounding. It was close. However, I have to admit that in the context of a live performance the cheap kit might be very similar to the DW when heard from the audience's stand point in the mix with the rest of the instruments. Very insightful video.
Given the amount of processing power available to mix engineers today it is not hard to significantly close the sonic gap between good and not-so-good drums in a mix (assuming both have good heads and are tuned well, of course -- you're not likely to polish a turd and have people think its anything other than a polished turd).
I've been rebuilding both top end and cheap drums for years. I ask you to please make a vid where you've got 2 drum kits with same lug count on toms, and compare a DW top line kit to an entry/mid level kit with same amount of lugs, except swap out both the factory heads and the hoops to include the tom hoops and bass drum hoops. Do a blind audio only vid(not showing the drums) 1st while testing the sound of the kits with room mics. Ask/test your viewers to chime in the comment section of which drum kit is the topline vs entry/mid level kit. From my vast experience rebuilding drums, I guarantee you there won't be a general consensus of one versus the other. In fact if anything, most viewers will think the entry/mid level kit with the DW heads and hoops actually sounds better. Then make another vid with the audio and video together to put an end to the snobbery.
That sounds amazing! I'm happy to do that, but the kick drum on the mid-level kit will almost certainly have only 8 lugs per head (for a 22" kick) while the DW will have 10. Other than this it is totally doable. That would be a interesting video! Thank you for the idea.
@@migueldiazdrums Thanks for that. That's a good idea. I'll try to make such a video(s) on occasion to help folks out. I do consider the mixing of drums to be more production related and less drum related (many/most drummers, I think, aren't looking for that information as they don't mix themselves), but I know many people (like you, clearly) DO want that info. I have another channel that is a catch-all (lots of various content that I did off and on starting back in 2012) that I have renamed recordingdotpizza with the intention of doing more production related videos. I will, on occasion, include videos like you have requested on that channel and plan to do a great deal more in the future, though I am currently focusin only on this channel until I can get video production process smooth and turning out content weekly. Then I'll do more on over there. But yes, it's probably time to do a video on my generic sweetening approach to tracking otherwise natural sounding drums. I'll try to do that in the next few weeks and post it here. Thank you for the request!
@@drumdotpizzaI want an update on this! Love your channel. And love this room sound. Any info on size and what areas you’ve treated ect? Almost sounds like you added reverb to the room itself. Sounds LUSH
There is more tonal information in the DW kit but in the context of a band, both kits sil sound great. Maybe in a jazz band or sparse/more open sounding music the DW might shine out over the less expensive drum kit. That being said snares can be an absolute game changer
As usual….excellent playing. The cymbals are very nice also. To my ear the DW’s are more “refined “ but the borgs are totally fine sound wise. When I started playing in ‘75, the only “cheap “ kits were stencil kits….so I was blessed by my parents to start on a used Ludwig Super Classic. Now the less expensive kits are often better made than my old Luddies! Great video and I enjoy your approach. Clearly an expert on recording and playing!!!
Thanks for this, that's a great comparison and I enjoyed listening to your explanation. The real test would be to do the same with a band and see if the difference in drum sound affects the quality of the overall performance.
@@drumdotpizza just get a tunebot and it will make your drums sing! Make sure you actually READ the instructions though! You won't regret buying this product.
@@drumdotpizza So you're telling me that you get all your lugs to be exactly in tune with eachother within 1 or 2 hertz. Then you record that and use the tunebot to get back there next time? Sounds like you would have to use it to get that degree of precision. Why not try some of the suggested tunings of the calculator app that goes with it. I doubt anyone can get a BETTER sound by ear! Quite simply computers can do things we can't. People know this is true in most areas so why do some drummers refuse to accept it with drums?
@@benking9160 Within more like 3-5 hertz, but usually closer to 3, which generally sounds quite good. I don't have perfect pitch (my son does), but I do have excellent relative pitch (discovered this in theory class in college), so I've had a good go tuning by ear and am quite comfortable with it (I'm an old dog... been doing it for decades now). And yes, I log the settings that sound particularly good with certain drums or when I know I'm probably going to need to recreate tunings for additional tracking later on.
I play a lot of gigs and the drums are totally room sound only. Because I’m setting up and tearing down constantly. My biggest pain is the hardware on the drums and how long will it last. Most of the venues are small so a kit that projects too much might not get me a call back for another gig. Tuning is extremely important so good heads and lugs are a must. Lot of the places have small stages so I’ve been gravitating to smaller kits and softer woods. This was very enlightening as far as what may make ‘cents’ as to what someone should do depending on what type of equipment they should use depending upon the environment they are playing in.
Sounds like your gig is perfect for a softer shelled, lighter weight drum kit. Yes, hardware sucks on cheap kits (which was beyond my intended scope for this particular video (which deals with tone only)). There are several companies that make poplar shelled kits with much better hardware (Tama's current Imperialstar line comes to mind), so that might be a good way to go. Several companies sell all-in-one (complete with cymbals) drum kits that are poplar shells too, but some of those have more suspect hardware (especially snare throw-offs, etc.). Pearl Roadshow, Ludwig BackBeat, SPL Unity II, etc. It's always possible to swap the questionable throw-offs and just use the rest of the hardware, add suspension mounts, etc. Probably wouldn't hurt to true edges and snare beds as well, but then you'd have a good kit for lower volume gigs!
Explaining is my style. When I post a video with a lot of talking I generally put time stamps in the description so people who get to what they want quickly. I'm glad you're here and hope you find my videos helpful to you in some way. Cheers!
When I was first gigging years ago, I had a hybrid set of drums that was put together with acquired drums of different brands, not to mention an 8" & 10" rack tom set that was formerly a set of concert toms, that I retooled the bearing edges, and added the lugs, and the two drums sounded respectable with the 13" and 16" Ludwig rack and floor toms. After several years, I decided to just go buy a new kit for better cohesiveness, and I figured that I deserved it! SO after testing several different kits, I settled upon (the lower-middle range)Tama Rockstars, and totally loved them! 30+ years later, they are still the workhorses I hoped for! I've used different top heads over the years (kept the original bottoms that came with them) and after several brands, I have been using Evans EC2's! These drums sound amazing!
Tama Rockstars have good bones! In a few weeks I'll post a video of me modifying a set of those. It think you'll find it interesting, so please stay tuned!
My first kit was an 'Apollo' badged stencil kit. Those drums actually have a bit of charm for me now, but they clearly weren't built with the quality of construction an today's inexpensive offerings (shells or hardware)! To have had something like an SPL Unity II kit (from GC or Musicians Friend) back then would have been amazing!!
In my opinion, you can hear a difference in the resonance of the expensive drums versus the cheap ones, likely due to the hardness of the wood. I think you can really hear the differences best in the close-up mics, primarily between the snares.
Yep! Harder wood (and finished/sealed interiors) create more resonance throughout the audio spectrum, giving more complex tonality that 'speaks' without requiring so much level. That increased harmonic complexity naturally pulls the ear. The softer, unsealed wood of the Borg kit has a more base, less complex tone that doesn't cut as much, though is often preferred by many. That is why I don't draw conclusions about which sound is 'better.' It really is in the ear of the beholder. Now the hardware and ease of tuning each kit....!!!
I bought $80 SPL shells off Facebook, new heads, tuned with a "Tune-Bot". The cymbals are pro, The majority of the kit was mic' ed with $17 Pyles "AKA SM57 rip-offs". The first song on my channel is all that gear. I understand it doesn't mean anything these days but I went to Full Sail 20 years ago. [2003] For audio engineering.
Knowledge and experience (or experimenting while having a good set of ears) go a LONG way toward getting the best tones out of whatever you have to work with, whether as a drummer or engineer. I think people can only benefit from working with inferior equipment and having to improvise to overcome that obstacles that equipment may present.
Well done video. In my drum room, I have so much its not even funny- Parade snare, 5 kit /concert snares, modern high tension marching snare, marching Quads, a PDP Concept Maple kit, Slingerland kit from the 70s and a 1960s Ludwig kit. So much of the sound quality is the room physically. The other major portion is tuning. Thankfully the quality of drum heads really has risen. Mixing Evans, Aquarian, Remo and other heads isn't an issue and can really dial in the sound. One aspect which would be nice to be touched on was the playing vs. beating of drums
An excellent suggestion! At some point I may do a 'recap' video of things discussed in previous videos regarding 'good' and 'bad' drums... the feel of playing them (or pounding them, as the case may be) is something I mentioned in my tone woods video many last year (ish), but not in this video. In an effort to keep this video short (as you can see, I can talk for along time ;) I decided to keep the scope of this one solely on the tonal differences. All other variables (there are many) are for other times. Thanks so much for being here and commenting!
It's funny how they are almost polar opposites in how they react under the mics. The Borg is more focused under the close mics and less focused in the room mics, and the DW is more focused in the room mics and less focused in the close mics. At least compared to each other. Both sounds are totally useable and will potentially get you a long way in the right situation.
Great observation (you listened on good monitors)! Yes, the stronger midrange and highs from the DW kits lit up the room more, while the relative darkness of the Borg kit (which exaggerates the attack percentage of the sound) has less interaction with the room, making them more direct sounding. I always hope people will not only make these kings of observations (which is why I 'hint' at what I suggest people listen for), but that such observations will help people in the process of matching drum selection to the desired performance. Lighter drums (by mass) can be fantastic for providing more controlled tones for low volume or close-mic situations where you don't want much interaction with the environment. I don't recommend people by a Borg drum kit (unless they're going to do some modification to make it more functional), but something like Noble & Cooley's Tulipwood kit (tulipwood is in the poplar family) or INDe's Studio Mod series (core of the shells made from poplar sandwiched between harder veneers inside and out) are excellent such drums... and both are FAR nicer than the Borg could ever hope to be in terms of all the other variables for good/bad comparisons. I just love drums!
@@drumdotpizza I actually listened through my iPhone speakers 😅 but yeah, lighter/less dense woods can sound very good in the right situation. Old stencil kits are great for cheap gig kits for this reason! You won't break the bank, and they'll sound nice enough under microphones given the right head choice and tuning
confirmed a lot of what I always believed: good heads, good tuning, and a good drummer are 90% of the equation. The differences are very minor when it comes to actual sound. The only thing I'd like to see changed is if you put a suspension mount on the cheap drum's tom. Suspension mounts can improve ANY rack tom, imho. To me, this supports the case for getting a "decent" kit to take out to bars and clubs where you won't necessarily have a major problem if somebody spills a beer on your kit, or knocks something into it. Conversely, if you have some magical custom finish that uses unicorn lanolin rubbed into the shells (very expensive), this would be a major problem. Thanks for putting this out there.
Agreed about the suspension mount comment! Particularly true for drum made from softer wood. I am currently working on a video that will post shortly all about various tom suspension protocols... I hope it is eye opening for people (it actually has been for me!!).
Very cool comparison Joel!!! I really think you nailed it when you were talking about the drum tuning and the skill of the recording/mixing engineer. I've seen way too many videos talking about getting a great drum sound but when I watch/listen to them it's clear that, as you said, the beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Drums with lots of gaff tape and/or multiple moon gels on them don't sound good to me. if you don't have a good sounding drum on their own acoustically, no matter what mic you use or processing you use, it's still going to sound bad. I remember a couple years ago watching a series of videos put out by a particular manufacturer with their a-list endorsers (drummers) and top notch musicians (band/studio musicians) and somehow the drum sounds of very different drummers all sounded very much the same. This really should not be but because they were all recorded the same day in the same studio with the same engineers so I could see how that can happen. I really like your video because it shows if you tune your drum properly with good heads having an acoustically good sounding drum, the drums will sound good when recorded. Yes, there is still a difference in the sound of the two kits but if someone on budget can't afford a more expensive kit like the DW kit, they can still get an acceptable drum sound from a lower cost kit. One other thing that really stuck out for me was the way the room mics complimented and contributed to the overall drum sound of each kit. It was like the icing on a good cake!!! I'm in the market for room mics but what may make it hard is that I'm in a fairly small space where I'm recording my drums (in my basement). I plan on trying a pair of 57s just to get a general feel for what my room sounds like but I know I'll want something more than that at some point. I'm considering ribbon mics but really I need to do some more research. I'm not sure if a plugin room verb will do the trick but that's something else I want to try. What was the size of the room you recorded this video in? Sounds like a big room!!! Do you by chance have tune-bot numbers for your snare drum tuning? Snares both sounded great. Anyway, thanks for sharing. Your videos are always enlightening and I always get something out of them. Thanks again Joel!!!
Wow! Thank you for the great comments! I think SM57s are a great place to start for room mics... they're peakier than ribbons, sonically, but that adds a bit of clarity to the often murky room reflections -- I just recommend you point them AWAY from the drums, particularly if you room is small. The have decent null at 180 degrees, so make sure the rear is pointed at the drums and the fronts at the walls oppostte the drums. A little compression can go a long way to exaggerating the size of your room, and putting a generous boost of a 100Hz shelf in front of the compressor will make it work harder and give a 'bigger' sound without actually adding too much to the overall level. I would avoid cheap ribbons if you can (the typical import fare... people often put Cinemag orLundahl or Jensen transformers in them to improve them, but that doesn't help the ribbon motor itself which is usually the weak point with imported ribbons. I have a pair of Samar AL-95 ribbons, which are cost-effective (comparatively) and sound wonderful. USA made by Mark Fouxman who knows his ribbon designs!! They're legit... you'll keep them even as your mic closet grows! But yes, 57s are an excellent room mic. The peakiness when pointed away from the drums adds some definition, and there is a certain 'grunge' factor that makes their output felt without having to have them turned up too much... I love to feel ambience rather than listen to it. As for TuneBot numbers, no, I didn't log them (and don't remember them... I filmed those performances a month or more ago). I'm sorry. I can tell you my general approach though: I usually tune batters to the midrange of the drum. For smaller toms this is only maybe a 1/2 turn above finger tight, maybe a touch more, but not much (3/4 or more turns for larger toms). I then even the tension rods, so they're all the same pitch and then make that pitch the 1 in a major scale ("Do" in solfege) and tune the bottom head to a 3rd above ("mi" in solfege). So the batter is "do.." the skip 're' and the bottom head is 'mi.' That is usually my start point. Massage the bottom up or down to taste, but usually it's pretty close with that. That is usually a pretty good starting point for tuning toms that will be close miked. Take them up a 1/2 turn or so (to taste) if you're using mimal miking and the toms will be picked up by overheads only, for instance. The higher tension/tuning will help the toms project into those distant (just NOT close) mics. Otherwise the midrange tuning I described above will translate only as attack with very little pitch or tone in those mics. Hope that helps! Thanks again for your comment and for being here!
@@drumdotpizza Thanks for the tips. I generally tune my toms very similarly. Are you still going to do a tom video? The snare and bass drum videos you did were very good. Actually I was looking for the snare tune-bot numbers not the toms but since you don't have them anyway, no big deal. I'm always experimenting with different tunings and I like the tune-bot so I can document (and reproduce) the tuning for tunings that I like. How big was the room where you recorded this video and how far from the kit were the room mics? I'm guessing, by the way it sounded, that it was a fairly large room. One of the local piano stores here had a piano performance room that seated about 75-100 people was fairly large and had nice acoustics. Too bad they closed - it would have been a nice place to try the same thing you did here. Anyway, again, thanks Joel for the tips. Nice playing, nice recording/mixing/video etc. Blessings...
I feel like the main thing I’m hearing is a difference in the attack in the room mics. The DW sounds “snappier” to my ear and I feel like the harmonics from the snare come through a little different. The Borg sounds less snappy more “gooshy” to my ear on the attack. Relatively subtle though, if you treated the two kits differently at the mixing stage I bet you could get them to sound even closer by tweaking the room EQ and level in comparison to the close mics (if that had been the goal). Awesome comparison vid. I could make either sound work in my recordings, but I’m just a hobby recordist so no real skin in the game.
Agreed. Processing can bring the cheaper drums to life for sure. If you can tune (and use good heads) then it is a truly bad drum that won't produce a decent tone.
Thanks for that video - nice playing! The DW's obviously sounded much better, but that entry level kit sounded really good. The thing I liked about the DWs was they weren't as rolled off hi-end wise. If you mixed them with a band, that extra clarity would give the drums some nice presence. Even though there was some brightness on top, they still can tune low. IME, the DW's and other hi-end kits tune up more easily, project better, and sit at a wider variety of tensions, than the cheaper kits.
Absolutely! Cheap drums are made of lightweight, course-grained wood and aren't sealed at all, so they suck up all the high end as soon as you strike the drum... yields a very abrupt, overall dark tonality where only the attack is bright (making them 'pop' so to speak).
I’ll admit, I had to really lean my ear in to notice the nuanced differences. They were oftentimes quite subtle. Really opens your eyes and ears to things
I find all the examples interesting, but after listening a few times to the close mics only and room mics only, going back to the full mix is suddenly very telling about the differences. Trying to really notice differences followed by casual listening suddenly makes the casual observance quite obvious to me. I also find that the room mics as part of the mix helps reveal what the close mics are capturing as well.
@@drumdotpizza it’s all really fascinating honestly and I think what I appreciated the most about this whole experience was your comments about the sounds of acoustic drums, cheap or expensive, still needing help from mics and mixing.
Not sure if this would help as much but I saw in a short where the very same tom was moved closer/further from it's rack clamp was making a difference. Better sustain overtone when the tom was closer to it's bracing, making the hits resound more than when it was further (where it seemed that the flex was dampening the hit). I hear a better sustain somewhat overtone from the DW, but I also noticed that the tom of the Bog kit was swaying more from the rack. Maybe good to investigate.
Keep watching (this is the second comment in row where I've said this) -- I have a video coming shortly that discusses the history of tom mounting and demonstrates not only various types of mounts, but various ways they can be implemented to get the preferred resonance/tone/sustain from each. I'm trying to keep it under an hour long!!! I'm hopeful that it will be eye opening to many... it already has been to me!
An interesting test at the extremes of the drum world. The Borg was holding its own until the room mics. It would be interesting to have a mid range option like a Pearl Export in the middle to see the difference
This was a great demo and you make a point I've tried to impart to non drummer musician friends looking for a kit for their studios or jam sessions. I can still hear a big difference though. Nonetheless the inexpensive kit is definitely usable in certain situations such as those my friends would need it for. I loved your video on drum heads and shell construction so based on that and my own personal experience I'm not at all surprised that the heads made all the difference in the world. No doubt just about all of the subscribers to your channel have been behind enough fairly decent drum kits at rehearsal rooms that sounded awful because of the beat up heads and general mistreatment. But I have a feeling that the hardware on the inexpensive kit wouldn't hold up to regular gigging. That said, it's amazing how much you can get for your money nowadays. I could definitely use an under $1,000 kit like a Yamaha Stage Custom or Mapex Saturn on just about any pro live gig. I've sometimes had to deal with worse. I wouldn't use one for recording though. Only my best shells because that's where you can really hear the difference. But I think it comes down to build quality. As long as the hardware and shell construction is decent you can work with it. And that's really what's coming out of the factory kits made in China nowadays. They are solid and very workable. As you said though that wasn't the case in the past. So if a beginner or novice bought a 20+ year old entry level drum kit at a yard sale they might get lucky but there's a good chance they'd end up with something much less workable than yours. It might require not just replacing heads but upgrading hardware and possibly dealing with out of round shells and questionable bearing edges. I've seen some youtubers trying to make a similar point who've failed to point out that the hardware and drumheads to make the old beginner kit they bought online barely passable required pouring in another $400-$500 into it. At that point a student drummer or novice on a tight budget could have gone ahead and bought a new budget kit and had something far and away better.
You sound like a kindred spirit!! Please keep watching... I'm filming a video right now modifying a mid-level drum kit (two actually) to show just how good drums can be with even a modest investment (so long as you're willing to finish the production that was arrested at the factory). That video should post in middle of October.
Perhaps, though I don't think so... I set the tension on snare wires with soft playing and did so with both of these. I think it is more likely that the glossy/reflective interior finish of the DW snare (DW glosses the interior of their Collectors Maple snare drums) keep the mids and high frequencies hanging around longer inside the drum increasing the intensity and length of the wire response. FWIW I'm sure I like glossy interior finishes on wood drums... I'd just rather use a metal drum instead. The gloss finish with a hardwood shell is just a sound that has never settled itself well in my hearing. I prefer darker tones for wood drums (though not as abrupt and dead 'pop' as the snare I used with the Borg kit except for certain needs). Hard, sealed wood interior, yes. Gloss? Not so much.
Thanks for the video! Its interesting to compare different kits. I also like your room aspect. I made a Video with one room mic and the same distance of each kit to show how drums sound the way they do. "10 different drum kits - one mic .... " is the title. Greets, j.
With good heads and tuning you can make any cheap set sound as good as an expensive one and a cheap set is the way to go budget wise if you're just looking for a practice set. For a gig set you might want a little better quality simply because the mounting hardware is much stronger and will last far longer when constantly taking the set apart and putting it back together. I always had a low-end practice set that stayed at home and a better-quality gig set that I would only play at gigs. That of course was when I was still gigging lol.
There’s a hand feel I’ve found in my more pricey kits I never got from my cheap ones. I would also say the quality of the hardware vs the level of that cheap kit is a huge difference. Fit and finish. We all know that cheap Yamaha stage custom that made people scratch their heads wondering why they spent so much though. I really found a fondness for the gretsch Catalina club kit as well.
IVE HAD A YAMAHA Stage CUSTOM FOR ABOUT 7 MONTH NOW and can honestly say it stacks up well against my $4000 Canopus kit. I think for sure the heads make a big difference but also Yamaha chooses to use quality hardware on their kits.
Yes, the feel of more expensive kits gives greater response to the dynamics of playing for sure. And the hardware... yes, nicer drums have MUCH nicer hardware.. smoother, more flexible, more robust, and better chrome!! Those factors, however, were not the scope of this particular video which I only wanted to deal with the actual sound/tone, but yes, there are many other things that go a long way to justify the significantly greater expense of a kit like the DWs.
The dw is just just a bit louder and punchier than the Borg kit. The Borg doesn't sound bad at all. I play a slightly cheaper kit, and when I figured the Best heads fot that kit and the Best tuning for that it, that was it. I do need to tune it every time I play, but that takes a few minutes, but that is all you need. And for comparison, you will tune your guitar also before you play anything. Thank you for this video, man, it was an educational take on this endless cheap vs expensive competition.
This video shows once more that nowadays you can buy a budget drumset and you can make it sound pretty good. I wish we had starter drumsets like these when I began playing drums in 1969. It's needs to be tuned properly and one should use good drumheads. And ususally there lies the problem: people that buy cheaper drums often are still young beginners or drummers that don't invest in new drumheads or in the knowledge of tuning. It's my experience that the hardware, the durability of the lugs, staying in tune etc. are way better with more expensive drums. And that's also an important factor! The DW sounds better, no doubt. However, for this improvement you have to pay a whole lot more. Details are expensive. 😊 By the way: nice tuning, nice playing! 👍
In my humble opinion, all drums can sound acceptable if proper tuning techniques be applied as well as how the drummer plays, a good technical drummer can make anything sound awesome because it will become his sound. In terms of the tools, in mi opinion you can “cheap” on anything on the drums EXCEPT on snare and cymbals. Cheaper snare drums tends to lack that “bite” that costly ones have. Cymbals, well there’s no way of masking them up to sound pretty. Other thing to consider is that in the grand scheme of things, meaning on a dense mix, kick and toms tend to sound the “same” (dry, punchy, and focused), not the case with snares and cymbals. Excellent video.
I love that snare... an SPL Unity model (I think they only came with the original Unity kits they made many years ago, but I got that one off ebay for $50 shipped. It was NOS, and all I did was true the edges and widen the snare beds to give it a broader, more useful tuning range. Otherwise stock, and it produces lovely staccato, mellow, midrange backbeats.
Honestly that Borg sounds better to me. It's drier sound, but has a more full sounding midrange that would set better in a mix than the DW. The snare especially on the DW lacks the low mids that the Borg has.
Beauty is indeed in the ear of the beholder! I don't disagree... I think each tonality has its place in music. That's why I have so many different types of drums (at least that what I tell my wife! ;)
The difference? Is in your ability to get the sounds YOU want from the kit, and then hold on to em. Cheap will require more work. Shell THICKNESS made most noticeable difference for me, cheap or expensive. Also if you are being mic'd there is less difference. For me, cheaper, mid grade Pearl, meant I could pick up my bass drum and connected tom, up overhead, and toss it to the stage edge, replacing anything that broke a lot cheaper...of coarse that was the old school Hardcore days so take what you want from it.
I agree w/ many of post below. I have the Taiwan made Pearl Exports from the 80's. But have all new Evans heads that have been carefully tuned. I'm quite happy w/ the sound. For live? Certainly good enough. Besides being easier to tune (and keep such) w/ expensive drums....they have superior hardware. I had to modify my kit's hardware to suit my setup needs. (also converted rack tom to a suspension mount) But yes....the player matters most. Mike Portnoy has a video where he kills it on a Hello Kitty kit's kit!. Oh....I do have a Supraphonic snare though. Man do I love that puppy. Evans dry batter. Stands are all Tama.
Please keep watching.. I am finishing a video that describes how you can take your kit to an even higher level of performances. Don't want to give it all away just now... will be posting in mid-October, so keep an eye out!
The DW snare definitely sounded tighter and brighter. The toms were good on both kits. The lows sounded more controlled on the DW kit. The Borg kit still sounded good and usable. I bought an old 90s Ludwig kit and fitted them with new Evans Heads, sounding good.
My opinion: There is a sweet spot between price and sound. There are models out there that will give you the (perceptively) best sound for the money you pay that is up par with high-end drum sets. Let's be honest-- people won't really know the sonic differences of a similarly-sized/spec'd Tama Starclassic, a Pearl Session Studio and a Yamaha Stage Custom, especially in the context of a mix. Nothing wrong with getting very expensive kits, especially if it has a good story behind it and/or if you feel good playing behind it. Things I would look for in a "great value" drum set: - evenly-worked bearing edges (the most important to me) - well-laid drum wraps - above-entry level hardware (lugs, hoops) - medium to heavy duty stands - Bonus: if the shells are entry-level Maple or Birch at the minimum
Yes to all of that!! Margins of diminishing returns definitely applies here. And, of course, depending on how you record (or amplify) a drum kit, (signal path, processing, etc.) much of this can be tossed out the window. We live in a great time of drum (and pro audio) equipment technology!
@@drumdotpizza The question is, at what price range is the "sweet spot" for finding those bang for the buck drum kits? While I know there are different price segments out there, there is definitely a price range that encapsulates those bang for the buck kits. Would be great to know your opinion in a separate video :)
@@andrewlauchengco7923 Well I am doing a video that should post middle of October about this very subject. The most bang for-for-the-buck drum kits out there are borderline top quality kits that lack a few processes for features to finish them well, usually. There are some considerations like the expense of shell material (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) such as inexpensive wood with an interior 'finish ply' that visually presents better than the wood the rest of the shell is made from (Tama Rockstar and Pearl Export for example) or just all-poplar shells that look nice but are very light weight, but all lack some final processes (or more care in those processes) that keep them from being top notch kits. They usually also have lower lug count (comparatively) on some diameters compared to 'professional' drums, but I generally find this to be less of a concern if the edges are excellent (which can be made so if they weren't already from the factory). And the MOST bang-for-the-buck will be in used kits, "pre-loved' as it were. My favorite high-quality/low cost drums are the earlier Pacific (not yet 'PDP') maple shell drums that were made in Mexico -- CX, MX, LX, SX. They used legit North American sugar maple shells (same as DW Collectors) as opposed to 'European Maple' of the current Concept Maple series (which is actually a different species of wood (called 'sycamore' in many places around the world) that is about 2/3 the hardness of sugar maple. These early maple drums were made in Mexico (cheaper labor) had no reinforcing rings, were not fine sanded or sealed interiors, and were only available in limited sizes, all of which made producing them (and their final cost) affordable. Complete 22/10/12/14 kits with a snare from those lines can be had now for $300-400 pretty regularly. If you're okay truing an occasional edge (or having someone do that) and then fine sanding and sealing the interiors you'll have a fantastic kit for very small investment. Anyway, I'm similarly modifying a couple of mid-level drumkits to fully pro status in the video I mentioned above that is releasing next month, so stay tuned, and I think that'll be informative for you. Thanks so much for taking the time to comment! I appreciate you being here.
One thing to me is that since cheaper drums are cheaper wood… they won’t hold as much abuse either. One thing drum companies do today for real though is that the most expensive and mid range kits are close to comparison.
The more expensive or "professional" drums are of heavier hardware and construction for durability and road-worthiness, but that also mean that the are really heavy to carry around for gigs. As far as sound quality...I would say drumheads and tuning are bigger factors...I would venture to say expensive drumkits tend to be a bit harder on the ears when tuning and listening up-close because many are purposely made for big sound with lots of overtones that can cut thru the sound wall in a live music setting. What sounds good in a quiet room at home wont necessarily sound good in a loud stage and vice versa.
Heads and tuning/muffling are the biggest factors by far, yes. And yes, nicer drums produce greater level across the frequency spectrum (something you can hear in this video). And yes, that makes nicer drums rather hard on the ears up close. Are you aware of Fletcher Munson curves? They were two guys in who, in the 1930s, put together a frequency chart showing common sensitivity curves for human hearing through the audible spectrum. Good drums produce more of the frequencies we're sensitive to, so they feel louder though their true amplitude (expressed by a meter) may not be all that different. I just love all this geeky stuff!!!
One comment … all Gretsch 12” drums have 5 lugs. But point taken on using less hardware on the drum makes it cheaper to manufacture (I.e., Ludwig Club Date drums).
The Gretsch drums, at least with the old ones, had die cast rims as well, which helps with the five lug thing. Although I have an SP 12" tom with five lugs and rather thin hoops, and it does fine.
@@johnseal56 Gretsch drums have used die cast hoops on there drum since the thin six ply shell of the 60s. The early 3 ply broadcaster kits had triple flange hoops in the 50s. My point was 5 lugs on 12” toms do work, but on cheap drums it’s about saving money!
the only flame wars I've ever got into is with people insisting there's a huge difference between materials when the plainly is barely any if any at all If you "lucky enough" to have fantastic expensive or exotic drum kit should take you very little time and effort to obtain a cheap old kit or a beginner catalogue special, so to speak & find out for yourself...
I'm not sure where I personally fall on that spectrum... I definitely hear significant differences between drums at times, and have been amazed that others absolutely did not, and other times I'm the one scratching my head when others are clearly noticing something that escapes me (my experiences have been more of former than the latter, but I have plenty of both). I hear definite differences in types of wood used (primarily harder vs. softer woods), but excellent craftsmanship combined with properly sealing the wood of the shell goes a long way toward filling that gap. My experience with lightweight drums made of softer wood (like poplar) has commonly been that they tend toward a staccato character that lacks comparative volume, clarity and sustain... but then I played Noble & Cooley's Tulipwood drums (tulipwood being in the poplar family with expected traits), and they have all the depth, authority and sustain I could ever want. N&C does a far nicer job of building their drums than Borg does, I'm quite sure, and therein lies (I believe) the greatest difference.
@@drumdotpizza all good points and I guess things go even more "out the window" when there's a actualband playing too…? I think the main difference is in resale value -a cheap kit drastically loses enormous amounts of it resale but a pricey kit will lose less so if you think of it in terms of 'renting a kit', so to speak, by buying it and selling it on and considering any loss as being the amount you paid for 'rental' then an expensive kit IS better value but TONE wise? There is a fascinating video that DW brought out where they excavate a Prehistoric log that's been preserved in an Ancient Peat Bog in eastern Europe; flying it out to their workshop and then slice it up into very thin veneers(🤷♂️!!) & then turn it into Neil Peart's favourite drum kit! Who knows ?
The DW seemed to have the authority, definition on the toms the cheap kit barely made, but the room mic on the cheap kit was a huge improvement, it was weird and funky and i digged it much and more
This really ties well in with my own experience of using a vintage Premier kit vs a modern kit with sharper edges and more mass in the shell and hardware. The Premier 58’ kit feels better to play in my environment and also sounds really good under mikes. The modern kits projects better, has a clearer tone and more sustain to the sound. But those qualites are just not always diserable in every situation.
I am agreeing with the other folks. Good tuning and a great player makes a good drum sound. Although I do think that the DW is far better over all because of its darker, richer tones. That being said, they would both work in any situation. The DW would be much better in an acoustic un-mic’d venue
It's true. That's why I put the time selections in the description, so people can skip to the part they really want (though I think the explanation is helpful for those who don't mind a little rambling ;)
I'd be willing to bet most people that subscribe to this channel are interested in his introduction. We've all seen countless comparison videos with the same premise. I appreciate the insight.
Under mics and mixed one can definitely make a cheap kit sound good as is evident here. But, in person and even with good heads and tuning, you can hear a difference. It's like the "High-end" kits are more refined, but more importantly, a high-end kit feels better to play in every way! Build quality, under the stick, the way the Bass feels and plays etc etc. There are actually some pretty big differences between cheap and expensive kits when playing them.
Joel you have done an absolutely amazing job with that Borg kit lol. I tell my students all the time that you can make any kit sound relatively good these days with decent heads and tuning and this really proves it. It's the cheap cymbals really let's the kits sound down. I would actually really like to know what you did with the cheap 6 lug share to get it sounding so crispy though without any muffling???
@@vlkiller I got you... you're absolutely right. A killer set of drums with crap cymbals is hard to listen to. I don't have students, per se (used to when I was younger, but I don't know that I'm cut out for that type of teaching without maybe going to jail at some point ;) but I do give lots of pointers to people it seems. My son who is a drummer is actually teaching a friend of his to play, and I recommended he help her find a dynamically responsive and good sounding ride cymbal and snare drum. Other things can be compromised (though good hats are great to have too), but since there is so much to learn about touch, dynamic and technique on the ride and snare particularly, it is always good to spend a little extra there to start with, and the whole experience of playing and learning will be much more fun!
Thank you for your kind words! As for the snare, the snare of that kit is actually an SPL Unity snare (basswood shell, I believe, though perhaps poplar). It's an 8-lug drum, not six, FWIW. I chose it for the Borg kit, because the Borg kit actually didn't come with a snare (well... it did, which is the reason I bought the kit in the first place -- it was a pristine Ludiwg Supra-Phonic from the 70s (perfect chrome, no dents or damage) all for $180. So yeah, I bought the kit, wound up selling the Supra (it was beautiful and sounded great, but so does my 1966 Supra with lots of pitting, so I sold the nice one). This is how I wound up with the Borg kit in the first place, so I thought it'd be great to use it for some videos. Anyway, the SPL snare is of similar build quality, so I paired it with the Borg kit. Unlike the Borg drums, which are totally stock with the exception of the Aquarian heads, I redid the edges on the SPL snare and widened the snare beds and made them symetrical (they weren't quite at 180 degrees from each other when I got the drum). I didn't seal the interior finish, however, so it absorbs high frequencies, making the attack very abrupt and the overall sound quite poppy. I don't need any muffling on it, really, as the shell is so soft that it is something of an insulator to begin with and quickly absorbs energy from the heads resulting in the abrupt quality. That is why I bought the drum, to have this type of voice in my snare collection (and it cost me $50 shipped when I got it new off ebay several years ago). What can I say? I love 'crap' drums! Thanks for your comments!!
For a period of time in the '70s, Ludwig was making shells out of used poplar pallets that they had scrounged up from other industry for very little, if any, money. Ludwig sold them as premium offerings at that time. Some of those drums currently have a very high resale value and produce a desirable sound. Learn how to choose the right drumheads for the music you plan to make and learn how to tune your drums in a variety of ways.
You're right, and I believe that's why Ludwig used granitone interior shell spray to mask the difference and make all the shells match from an inner shell visual.
I've never head that they recycled palettes, but they definitely used some thick poplar plies in their thicker 6-ply drum shells of the late 70s and 80s (my favorite Ludwig era, btw!!). Thick maple/poplar shells are so satisfying to play and record!
@@drumdotpizza I don't know for certain if they really used pallets....but pallets are often made of poplar and are plentiful in the area of the factory. I had a customer that would buy weird vintage Ludwig shells off of ebay and bring them to me to modify and make into functional drums...some of the shells he brought me used a number of pieces in each layer, the pieces being about the width of a pallet plank, but run through the planer to make them the right thickness. Run the assembly through the press and boom...a sturdy shell. They sounded great so...
@@drumdotpizza I chuckled to myself the first time I saw it and realized what Ludwig had done....but on second thought, it was recycling. The end result sounded great so more power to them..
In my experience even DW collectors (I own 3 kits) in maple are great but you need a long period of time to find each shell’s sweet spot- I will say if you had a cheap kit compared to say the mahogany purple cores I own they are just fantastic and you can very easily tell
Very interesting to hear. Overall DW sounds...well - like a DW - they do have their own characteristics with I think lot of mids, warm, open, "noble boxy" vibe. The cheap kit sounds...hmmm - vintage in a way? A bit like when you want to make a more mellow sound in a studio and for that you use some vintage kit. I guess - you can do that with a DW kit as well, but not the other way around. You won't make a DW out of Borg.
the only think this is missing it like some of the other comparison vids do is at the end they do a simple back a forth single hit on each drum, it was harder to compare toms are there was always a while of open snare noodling before they kicked in.
One vital element never discussed in these type of videos is …… the feel. When you play a nice set you do not have to play it so hard to get your sound. On a cheap set you need to play them harder. When you “tap” good quality drums. They should sing.
Absolutely true! Well said. I specifically intended to keep this video about only the sound differences though, not discuss hardware, sturdiness, finish, ease of tuning or how well they stay in tune, or the feel of playing them as you mention (though I did discuss this feel factor in my tone woods video several months back, IIRC). It's always a dance trying to decide how much content to discuss in a single video. I myself have a tendency to talk too much (you might have noticed! ;) so I'm usually trying to scale down the breadth of topics to keep videos a bit more focuse (and under an hour in length! ;) But yes, I don't enjoying forcing the sound out of cheap drums as much I do simply expressing myself on good ones!
I think high end drums have more of a tuning range and can give you more sound options. You can buy a cheaper kit, and they are built very well depending on the brand, and you can get a good but specific sound. You pay extra for something versatile and customized, more finishes and size options
The difference is huge in the feel. When you play the drums and when you are listening them live. Through the mics and preamps, the difference is less audible, specially if you tune the drums that low, the toms and bass drums (if they are muffled) will sound the same. If you tune them at higher pitches and don't muffle the BD, the gap would be much more clear.
Very true! A good point. I chose my typical midrange tuning (for toms) and pop (thud) kick, since that is pretty common in modern music, but yet, tension them to sing and project more and the differences do become a bit more apparent. What is interesting though (in my opinion) is the higher, jazzier (boppier?) tunings favor the cheaper drums as they're more abrupt, and that vibe fits bop playing to my ear. Wouldn't hurt to seal or paint the interior of the drums, but that would indeed be an interesting comparison. Maybe I'll do a part two in the not-to-distant future. Great idea, thank you!! Oh, and yes, feel is totally different between these kits (I much prefer the response of the DW as a player), but I chose to ignore hardware and feel issues in favor of only the sound as a listener for this video.
@@drumdotpizza It would be a great comparison... but I agree that the difference in sound does not justify the difference in price. Thanks for the video man! Cheers!
My idea when I started drumming was to buy a nicer more expensive kit when I got better. Well, years later , a few different heads and better tuning wisdom I like what I started with. I did have to buy a supraphonic though lol. Both kits did sound good but l liked the DW better. Just hate those round lugs.
I knew this already and yet was still amazed at how close they sounded! (Fun fact, my first kit 19 years ago was Borg from Costco ... Have never seen that name anywhere else til now 😊. Of course since I was new to drumming I didn't know how to tune them for their best.) The biggest difference in sound was with only room mics, where the DW was more resonant and lively sounding. Since I play unmiked almost exclusively that's important to me. The close mics are the great equalizer, which is a little odd to me. The miking technique makes about 100x the difference compared to one kit VS the other 😮
Yes, the miking/processing/mixing goes a long way toward filling the gap between the sonics of good and bad drums. So Borg is from Costco?? I have seen a couple of these kits online, but this one I ran across a few months ago on local Craigslist ad (complete with Borg cymbals and full hardware) for $180 total. Oh, and the $180 also included a pristine Ludwig Supraphonic snare drum!!! ;) I sold the Supra (got my money back and then some) and then had the rest of the kit, which was perfect for some videos I had in mind (including this one). Costco drums. Interesting...
Low mass and soft wood = short, 'poppy' sound. That's why I have that snare in my collection! An SPL Unity snare (I think it came only with the Unity kit they made many years back, but I got it on ebay for $50 shipped... WORTH IT!!
Today people are spending thousands on "finishes" that'll eventually get scratched to death. I remember when I started it was pick your favorite wrapped solid even on maple shells.
like he said, don't waste your time and money on high end drums. I've been playing for 43 years, gig alot and most of my money goes to cymbals. I can pretty much get any sound i want from most entry to mid level drum kits with selecting heads and proper tuning. I do of course have some high end snare drums, DW maple is my main. I mostly play an X7 ply maple PDP kit that sounds excellent, especially the kick, i'm always amazed how great it sounds wide open, unmic'd, no pillow or muffling, just because its got the right head combo and perfect tuning. Higher end drums can def be more durable, have nicer finishes, and offer more features, but just for sound, you can get pretty close just with heads, and tuning, also don't underestimate upgrading your tuning rods or lugs, cheap and easy.
Most all mid-level kits are really close to top of the line kits that lack the last bit of craftsmanship that owners themselves can apply. I'm working on a video right now that will be out in a few weeks where I do precisely that with a Pacific F-series birch kit and a Tama Rockstar kit (lauan with inner ply of basswood). A little elbow grease can go a long way!!
I think it is really hard to do this unless you are in a studio room purpose built to record drums, otherwise you have to process them a little, I record in my bedroom and have a 170 dollar audio interface, my drums are nice, and I have an audix mic set, but dry through a behringer interface in my bedroom they sound woofy as hell lol, it has been a struggle for sure, I always like the sounds you get in your room Joel, they sound pretty damn good. Your also a great drummer too. Good video have not seen ya in while.
I've not been uploading regularly as I've been trying to get other professional commitments off my plate, so I can focus more on this channel. A rather daunting venture, particularly for an old fart like me who still feels somewhat embarrassed even telling people I have a RUclips channel... but it's fun, I'm hoping it will be helpful to lots of people, and am excited to see what could happen with more time spent on consistent uploads (and my wife is on board too!). So, Lord willing, you'll be seeing me just about every week from this point on.... ;) Thanks for being here!
Depends VERY much on the brand and the current economic state of that brand. You can have your DWs that will sell you a very good kit for 4000$, OR, you can have a brand that aims to rebrand itself / gain customer base and sell you a very good kit (maybe 95% of a DW) for 1500$. This what you want to search for. I recently got a 6 piece Mapex Armory kit for a mere 800$ and it`s very much up there with a 3000$ DW. So my point is cheap drums are not always bad and expensive drums are not always excellent. You got to look for the underdog. Anyway, great presentation. I found the DW kit to have a bit more presence and detail but not very much over the cheap kit.
It is also worth noting (but virtually impossible to demonstrate in a video) the differences that are perceived in the room with the drums that aren't captured by the microphones. Microphones themselves, even really costly microphones, impart such a strong character to drums when miked close that it is hard to undo or avoid, and often this character misses much of the uniqueness presented by different drums. Ditto the impact of esoteric (vintage, expensive) microphone preamps on the sound. The sound of drums, whether amplified or recorded, often comes down to tuning and processing rather than much to do with anything other than the base tonality common to most any drum.
@@drumdotpizza I agree, even without any hardware, different ears different sounds. I listened to beautiful records with crap drums but very well engineered. I don`t know if you noticed but each drum invited you to play slightly different so that`s another aspect, how the whole drum assembly guides the performance into a certain way.
I LOVE that cheap snare... an SPL Unity model (poplar shell, raw interior). I got it off ebay for $50 new (came with a Unity kit, but the seller already had a good snare, so sold the included one). Soft, light wood makes for abrupt, staccato backbeats!
You are right!! Nice drums are easier to play.... literally. They respond without so much effort required. But that part of the comparison was outside the scope of this video ;)
It’s a similar concept as a car. A cheap Kia can get you from point A to point B. Some people prefer a nicer car. In context: a person who spends a lot of time in their car is more likely to spend a little more on it. It is similar with instruments. Personally I think that more expensive kit is overall more enjoyable to play.
I enjoy the feel of drums made with harder shells, personally. The DWs are very responsive to my touch, but the Borg drums, with their softer shells, do have a sound that is cool.
A cheap kit tensioned well sounds great, but loses tension quickly and sounds poorer after a set of music, especially when climate changes (AC car to outdoor heat or colder box truck to indoor heated venue).
As far as sound actually preferred the cheap kit but I'm not all that surprised as I prefer a more vintage sort of sound with a bit less attack. I'd still never want to deal with the cheap hardware and difficulties tuning a kit like that.
My experience has been that the sound is 80% or so head choice and tuning. The difference between cheap and expensive drums is turning range and stability. When I had a cheap kit, it required constant tuning and was more particular about how it was tuned. With my professional kit, the tuning holds for months and it takes a larger variety of tunings well. In short, more expensive drums won't make you sound better; they just make it easier to sound good.
Well said ! Spot on .
The other issue I found with cheap kits---bad bearing edges. *IF* a cheap kit had properly cut edges, there really is no need for spending a ton on a high end kit.
A lot of studios i have been to use a yamaha stage custom. Not even the newer birch models, but the older mixed wood falkata kits. A far cry from DW and Craviatto.
@@scottlowell493 - I put some pinstripes on a Percussion Plus, not that bad. The average listener has no clue, either way, as long as the tuning is not obnoxious. The cymbals are really important, though. Another thing is durability. A cheap kit will fall apart a lot quicker than a Pearl Masters or DW.
why would the cheaper ones be any worse in holding the tuning? if the hardware is not complete junk and properly maintained, there should be no problems
@@kimseniorb - You would think so, but that hasn't been my experience. Maybe the step up in hardware quality is enough to affect tuning stability.
As a professional backline tech and session drummer, I can say that the 100% main difference between cheap and expensive is reliability.
Cheap drums are hit or miss. They might sound incredible or they might sound weak and dry. They might be easy to tune or they might have uneven bearing edges or rims. They might survive being set up and torn down 500 times or they might be falling apart after 20.
Expensive drums are way more consistent in they way they sound, the way you tune them, how good the tuning holds up under different circumstances such as heavy playing or varying temepatures and how long the hardware survives being thrown around. Also expensive kits tend to have more QOL engineering solutions making it faster to set them up and tear them down.
So the question you gotta ask yourself is if you can afford - both monetarily and mentally - to spend 30-60 minutes extra on a random basis fixing issues in the studio or on tour. Or if the price jump investing in something more premium is worth it to you
All true (and outside the scope of this video). I just wanted to demonstrate the differences in sound/tone only between 'good' and 'not-so-good' drums for people who might be wondering, or who might have developed their opinions solely on price tag.
Yes, there are many other comparisons to be made: ease of tuning, staying in tune, durability, function/sturdiness of hardware, responsiveness to dynamics, etc. Nice drums pretty much rule in all these additional categories.... but beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and I thought there would surely be some people who would be surprised by a comparison of purely the sonics of each.
Thanks so much for being here and sharing!
Thank you for saving me a ton of typing! You are spot on! Thanks!
Most informative drum channel by far. Especially for those of us who love making or working on drums as much as playing them 😊
Awesome, thank you! I'm so glad to here it. People think I talk too much (they're right!), but I so enjoy the minutiae, personally, that I find it hard not to speak so. I always hope that my effort is helpful for other people to better understand the instrument they play (or record, mix, etc.).
Thanks so much for being here!
I really am glad you exist and that you're so obsessive and knowledgeable where drums are concerned. Excellent work as always.
It seems to be the case that so long as they're pretty close to round and the bearing edges aren't terrible, if they've got good quality heads on them, they're tuned well, and they're in a half decent room, any drums will sound like drums, and they'll sound good.
Subtle though it is, it's noticeable that the DW kit just provides a bit more of everything - volume, attack, low end resonance and warmth, and high end cut.
Yes... a bit more everything. Perfectly said!
Hey thanks for making the time to make these videos they’re entertaining and educational and probably something else that I don’t know what the word is for
Once again another 🔥🔥 video by Joel. You can definitely tell that the DW snare is light years beyond the other one.
The snares are the most telling part for me (well, toms are close). The cheap snare is dull and poppy (no body), while the DW sounds more complete. Toms are similar, they the cheap ones lack life, and the DWs are full and clear.
I work in the drum dept. of a music store. This video reinforces the approach I take with many of my customers. The huge price difference between high end and low end drums is not always justified when it comes to tone. Tuning and head selection is key. Granted, higher end drums can stand up better over time and once a player has achieved a high level of playing ability, he or she may notice some sonic improvements. Nonetheless, thanks so much for the video, Joel! I always look forward to what I might learn next from you based on your years of experience. Appreciated!
Thanks for the comments. You got me thinking... a entry-level kit can cost as little as $300 brand new, but the heads are gonna be crap. If it's a 5-pc kit (say.. 22/10/12/16 with a snare) new GOOD heads can add another $250 making the kit sound so tons better, but nearly doubling the cost!
I don't really have a point here, necessarily, just thinking out loud, so to speak. At what price point do quality heads become part of the equation? Seems like most mid-level kits still have Remo UT or other cheap heads on them. At what price point (for a 5-pc like mentioned above) do good heads come included?
Yup… the right head for the certain drum.
In earlier days, I often thought, and joked, that I was so bad at tuning that my drums sounded like pizza boxes. Now I'm wondering what a set of actual pizza boxes could be made to sound like.
Use pizza boxes and trigger them 😁
@@johnbmx4christ I've been thinking about doing that. Kinda' hoping to find some square shapes that can be made to look like pizza boxes, but will hold up and be easy to trigger with.
@@oleran4569 if you ever do something like that, please tag me. 😁
The biggest difference seemed to be with room mics ,and then with only the snare. Great comparison, thank you Brother!
Proof that the real key to sounding good is the guy in the seat, not the drums.
You're too kind, thx!
I giggle relatively cheap drums (Yamaha Stage Custom Birch), they sound exactly like the Recording Custom Drums of the 80s. Pinstripes or coated Emperors, bottom heads tuned down. Perfect.
Great playing brother!
Thanks so much!
Excellent presentation! I enjoyed this a bunch! Long ago and far away, I was once a drummer, but was probably less than average so I didn't try to follow that career path. There have been times when I wish I had. I occasionally listen to drum channels, and this is one of the best that I've had the pleasure of seeing. I should have done a blind test, but to my old ears, the DW kit had what I'd call a richer, warmer sound all the way around, especially the snare. I (maybe because I used to play in small bands) actually prefer just the room mic to the individual, close mics.
Your chops and tuning ability could make any kit sound great man.
Thank you so much for the kind words! Much appreciated.
Amen to that comment... This Guy plays the drums beautifully. I bet the Cheap drum Manufacturer felt honored to have their kit sound so damn good!
I really liked the sound of the floor tom on the cheap kit.
I know, right?! I just find myself gravitating toward the charm of just about any drum -- even cheap ones. Just a different, but often very cool breed compared to more expensive options.
@@drumdotpizzaSo I guess mixing shell types for practice won't hurt anyone after all! Oh they both sounded really similar here!
Not a DW fan but the toms had more resonance and the snare to my ears was nicer sounding. It was close. However, I have to admit that in the context of a live performance the cheap kit might be very similar to the DW when heard from the audience's stand point in the mix with the rest of the instruments. Very insightful video.
Given the amount of processing power available to mix engineers today it is not hard to significantly close the sonic gap between good and not-so-good drums in a mix (assuming both have good heads and are tuned well, of course -- you're not likely to polish a turd and have people think its anything other than a polished turd).
What is it that you don't like about DW drums? What drums are you a fan of?
I've been rebuilding both top end and cheap drums for years. I ask you to please make a vid where you've got 2 drum kits with same lug count on toms, and compare a DW top line kit to an entry/mid level kit with same amount of lugs, except swap out both the factory heads and the hoops to include the tom hoops and bass drum hoops. Do a blind audio only vid(not showing the drums) 1st while testing the sound of the kits with room mics. Ask/test your viewers to chime in the comment section of which drum kit is the topline vs entry/mid level kit. From my vast experience rebuilding drums, I guarantee you there won't be a general consensus of one versus the other. In fact if anything, most viewers will think the entry/mid level kit with the DW heads and hoops actually sounds better.
Then make another vid with the audio and video together to put an end to the snobbery.
That sounds amazing! I'm happy to do that, but the kick drum on the mid-level kit will almost certainly have only 8 lugs per head (for a 22" kick) while the DW will have 10. Other than this it is totally doable.
That would be a interesting video! Thank you for the idea.
Well done, Joel!
The cheap Borg kit records nicely!
I appreciate your perspective & you bring to the table. So helpful & of value. Thank you Joel!
I´d love a mix breakdown. Thanks for the video!
You mean what processing did I do to mix these two kits?
@@drumdotpizza yes! Or your typical drum mixing moves. In every one of your videos the drums sound incredible
@@migueldiazdrums Thanks for that. That's a good idea. I'll try to make such a video(s) on occasion to help folks out. I do consider the mixing of drums to be more production related and less drum related (many/most drummers, I think, aren't looking for that information as they don't mix themselves), but I know many people (like you, clearly) DO want that info.
I have another channel that is a catch-all (lots of various content that I did off and on starting back in 2012) that I have renamed recordingdotpizza with the intention of doing more production related videos. I will, on occasion, include videos like you have requested on that channel and plan to do a great deal more in the future, though I am currently focusin only on this channel until I can get video production process smooth and turning out content weekly. Then I'll do more on over there.
But yes, it's probably time to do a video on my generic sweetening approach to tracking otherwise natural sounding drums. I'll try to do that in the next few weeks and post it here.
Thank you for the request!
@@drumdotpizza I’ll check it out, thanks!
@@drumdotpizzaI want an update on this! Love your channel. And love this room sound. Any info on size and what areas you’ve treated ect? Almost sounds like you added reverb to the room itself. Sounds LUSH
From 17:38 to 17:50Love that translation of groove ☄️
Feel, longevity, consistency in tuning … if you are serious and love drums? Invest it’s a lifetime investment…
There is more tonal information in the DW kit but in the context of a band, both kits sil sound great. Maybe in a jazz band or sparse/more open sounding music the DW might shine out over the less expensive drum kit.
That being said snares can be an absolute game changer
15:40 the actual comparison
My name is Glenn Short.
Great video, Joel. To lend to the comparison, would love some sort of back and forth A/B edit of both kits playing the same 4 count groove.
Perhaps a good short! Thank you.
Buenisimo video y explicacion!! Thanks!!
¡Muchas gracias por tu comentario y estar aquí!
As usual….excellent playing. The cymbals are very nice also. To my ear the DW’s are more “refined “ but the borgs are totally fine sound wise. When I started playing in ‘75, the only “cheap “ kits were stencil kits….so I was blessed by my parents to start on a used Ludwig Super Classic. Now the less expensive kits are often better made than my old Luddies! Great video and I enjoy your approach. Clearly an expert on recording and playing!!!
Much appreciated!
Cheap kit sounded great!! To your point, if you know how to tune and can mic a drum set etc. you can get good, usable sounds. Great video!
Thanks for this, that's a great comparison and I enjoyed listening to your explanation. The real test would be to do the same with a band and see if the difference in drum sound affects the quality of the overall performance.
Yay!! Joels back!!
if you can't tune the drums it does not matter what you buy...😉
Agreed!
@@drumdotpizza just get a tunebot and it will make your drums sing! Make sure you actually READ the instructions though! You won't regret buying this product.
@@benking9160 I have a TuneBot and love it. I only use it to log tunings for later recall though. I tune by ear otherwise.
@@drumdotpizza So you're telling me that you get all your lugs to be exactly in tune with eachother within 1 or 2 hertz. Then you record that and use the tunebot to get back there next time? Sounds like you would have to use it to get that degree of precision. Why not try some of the suggested tunings of the calculator app that goes with it. I doubt anyone can get a BETTER sound by ear! Quite simply computers can do things we can't. People know this is true in most areas so why do some drummers refuse to accept it with drums?
@@benking9160 Within more like 3-5 hertz, but usually closer to 3, which generally sounds quite good.
I don't have perfect pitch (my son does), but I do have excellent relative pitch (discovered this in theory class in college), so I've had a good go tuning by ear and am quite comfortable with it (I'm an old dog... been doing it for decades now). And yes, I log the settings that sound particularly good with certain drums or when I know I'm probably going to need to recreate tunings for additional tracking later on.
I play a lot of gigs and the drums are totally room sound only. Because I’m setting up and tearing down constantly. My biggest pain is the hardware on the drums and how long will it last. Most of the venues are small so a kit that projects too much might not get me a call back for another gig. Tuning is extremely important so good heads and lugs are a must. Lot of the places have small stages so I’ve been gravitating to smaller kits and softer woods. This was very enlightening as far as what may make ‘cents’ as to what someone should do depending on what type of equipment they should use depending upon the environment they are playing in.
Sounds like your gig is perfect for a softer shelled, lighter weight drum kit. Yes, hardware sucks on cheap kits (which was beyond my intended scope for this particular video (which deals with tone only)). There are several companies that make poplar shelled kits with much better hardware (Tama's current Imperialstar line comes to mind), so that might be a good way to go. Several companies sell all-in-one (complete with cymbals) drum kits that are poplar shells too, but some of those have more suspect hardware (especially snare throw-offs, etc.). Pearl Roadshow, Ludwig BackBeat, SPL Unity II, etc. It's always possible to swap the questionable throw-offs and just use the rest of the hardware, add suspension mounts, etc. Probably wouldn't hurt to true edges and snare beds as well, but then you'd have a good kit for lower volume gigs!
I’m 14:13 in, are you going to play the drums soon?
Explaining is my style. When I post a video with a lot of talking I generally put time stamps in the description so people who get to what they want quickly. I'm glad you're here and hope you find my videos helpful to you in some way. Cheers!
When I was first gigging years ago, I had a hybrid set of drums that was put together with acquired drums of different brands, not to mention an 8" & 10" rack tom set that was formerly a set of concert toms, that I retooled the bearing edges, and added the lugs, and the two drums sounded respectable with the 13" and 16" Ludwig rack and floor toms. After several years, I decided to just go buy a new kit for better cohesiveness, and I figured that I deserved it! SO after testing several different kits, I settled upon (the lower-middle range)Tama Rockstars, and totally loved them! 30+ years later, they are still the workhorses I hoped for! I've used different top heads over the years (kept the original bottoms that came with them) and after several brands, I have been using Evans EC2's! These drums sound amazing!
Tama Rockstars have good bones! In a few weeks I'll post a video of me modifying a set of those. It think you'll find it interesting, so please stay tuned!
@@drumdotpizza Can't wait!
Fantastic video
I totally agree with the comments on manufacturing and build quality of the "lower" end price point drums! Excellent point made.
My first kit was an 'Apollo' badged stencil kit. Those drums actually have a bit of charm for me now, but they clearly weren't built with the quality of construction an today's inexpensive offerings (shells or hardware)! To have had something like an SPL Unity II kit (from GC or Musicians Friend) back then would have been amazing!!
Depends on the drummer! End of Report!
In my opinion, you can hear a difference in the resonance of the expensive drums versus the cheap ones, likely due to the hardness of the wood. I think you can really hear the differences best in the close-up mics, primarily between the snares.
Yep! Harder wood (and finished/sealed interiors) create more resonance throughout the audio spectrum, giving more complex tonality that 'speaks' without requiring so much level. That increased harmonic complexity naturally pulls the ear. The softer, unsealed wood of the Borg kit has a more base, less complex tone that doesn't cut as much, though is often preferred by many. That is why I don't draw conclusions about which sound is 'better.' It really is in the ear of the beholder.
Now the hardware and ease of tuning each kit....!!!
Great video. 👏
I bought $80 SPL shells off Facebook, new heads, tuned with a "Tune-Bot". The cymbals are pro, The majority of the kit was mic' ed with $17 Pyles "AKA SM57 rip-offs". The first song on my channel is all that gear. I understand it doesn't mean anything these days but I went to Full Sail 20 years ago. [2003] For audio engineering.
Knowledge and experience (or experimenting while having a good set of ears) go a LONG way toward getting the best tones out of whatever you have to work with, whether as a drummer or engineer. I think people can only benefit from working with inferior equipment and having to improvise to overcome that obstacles that equipment may present.
Well done video. In my drum room, I have so much its not even funny- Parade snare, 5 kit /concert snares, modern high tension marching snare, marching Quads, a PDP Concept Maple kit, Slingerland kit from the 70s and a 1960s Ludwig kit. So much of the sound quality is the room physically. The other major portion is tuning. Thankfully the quality of drum heads really has risen. Mixing Evans, Aquarian, Remo and other heads isn't an issue and can really dial in the sound. One aspect which would be nice to be touched on was the playing vs. beating of drums
An excellent suggestion! At some point I may do a 'recap' video of things discussed in previous videos regarding 'good' and 'bad' drums... the feel of playing them (or pounding them, as the case may be) is something I mentioned in my tone woods video many last year (ish), but not in this video.
In an effort to keep this video short (as you can see, I can talk for along time ;) I decided to keep the scope of this one solely on the tonal differences. All other variables (there are many) are for other times.
Thanks so much for being here and commenting!
It's funny how they are almost polar opposites in how they react under the mics.
The Borg is more focused under the close mics and less focused in the room mics, and the DW is more focused in the room mics and less focused in the close mics. At least compared to each other. Both sounds are totally useable and will potentially get you a long way in the right situation.
Great observation (you listened on good monitors)! Yes, the stronger midrange and highs from the DW kits lit up the room more, while the relative darkness of the Borg kit (which exaggerates the attack percentage of the sound) has less interaction with the room, making them more direct sounding.
I always hope people will not only make these kings of observations (which is why I 'hint' at what I suggest people listen for), but that such observations will help people in the process of matching drum selection to the desired performance.
Lighter drums (by mass) can be fantastic for providing more controlled tones for low volume or close-mic situations where you don't want much interaction with the environment. I don't recommend people by a Borg drum kit (unless they're going to do some modification to make it more functional), but something like Noble & Cooley's Tulipwood kit (tulipwood is in the poplar family) or INDe's Studio Mod series (core of the shells made from poplar sandwiched between harder veneers inside and out) are excellent such drums... and both are FAR nicer than the Borg could ever hope to be in terms of all the other variables for good/bad comparisons.
I just love drums!
@@drumdotpizza I actually listened through my iPhone speakers 😅 but yeah, lighter/less dense woods can sound very good in the right situation. Old stencil kits are great for cheap gig kits for this reason! You won't break the bank, and they'll sound nice enough under microphones given the right head choice and tuning
confirmed a lot of what I always believed: good heads, good tuning, and a good drummer are 90% of the equation. The differences are very minor when it comes to actual sound. The only thing I'd like to see changed is if you put a suspension mount on the cheap drum's tom. Suspension mounts can improve ANY rack tom, imho.
To me, this supports the case for getting a "decent" kit to take out to bars and clubs where you won't necessarily have a major problem if somebody spills a beer on your kit, or knocks something into it. Conversely, if you have some magical custom finish that uses unicorn lanolin rubbed into the shells (very expensive), this would be a major problem.
Thanks for putting this out there.
Agreed about the suspension mount comment! Particularly true for drum made from softer wood. I am currently working on a video that will post shortly all about various tom suspension protocols... I hope it is eye opening for people (it actually has been for me!!).
Very cool comparison Joel!!! I really think you nailed it when you were talking about the drum tuning and the skill of the recording/mixing engineer. I've seen way too many videos talking about getting a great drum sound but when I watch/listen to them it's clear that, as you said, the beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Drums with lots of gaff tape and/or multiple moon gels on them don't sound good to me. if you don't have a good sounding drum on their own acoustically, no matter what mic you use or processing you use, it's still going to sound bad. I remember a couple years ago watching a series of videos put out by a particular manufacturer with their a-list endorsers (drummers) and top notch musicians (band/studio musicians) and somehow the drum sounds of very different drummers all sounded very much the same. This really should not be but because they were all recorded the same day in the same studio with the same engineers so I could see how that can happen.
I really like your video because it shows if you tune your drum properly with good heads having an acoustically good sounding drum, the drums will sound good when recorded. Yes, there is still a difference in the sound of the two kits but if someone on budget can't afford a more expensive kit like the DW kit, they can still get an acceptable drum sound from a lower cost kit.
One other thing that really stuck out for me was the way the room mics complimented and contributed to the overall drum sound of each kit. It was like the icing on a good cake!!!
I'm in the market for room mics but what may make it hard is that I'm in a fairly small space where I'm recording my drums (in my basement). I plan on trying a pair of 57s just to get a general feel for what my room sounds like but I know I'll want something more than that at some point. I'm considering ribbon mics but really I need to do some more research. I'm not sure if a plugin room verb will do the trick but that's something else I want to try. What was the size of the room you recorded this video in? Sounds like a big room!!! Do you by chance have tune-bot numbers for your snare drum tuning? Snares both sounded great.
Anyway, thanks for sharing. Your videos are always enlightening and I always get something out of them. Thanks again Joel!!!
Wow! Thank you for the great comments!
I think SM57s are a great place to start for room mics... they're peakier than ribbons, sonically, but that adds a bit of clarity to the often murky room reflections -- I just recommend you point them AWAY from the drums, particularly if you room is small. The have decent null at 180 degrees, so make sure the rear is pointed at the drums and the fronts at the walls oppostte the drums. A little compression can go a long way to exaggerating the size of your room, and putting a generous boost of a 100Hz shelf in front of the compressor will make it work harder and give a 'bigger' sound without actually adding too much to the overall level.
I would avoid cheap ribbons if you can (the typical import fare... people often put Cinemag orLundahl or Jensen transformers in them to improve them, but that doesn't help the ribbon motor itself which is usually the weak point with imported ribbons. I have a pair of Samar AL-95 ribbons, which are cost-effective (comparatively) and sound wonderful. USA made by Mark Fouxman who knows his ribbon designs!! They're legit... you'll keep them even as your mic closet grows!
But yes, 57s are an excellent room mic. The peakiness when pointed away from the drums adds some definition, and there is a certain 'grunge' factor that makes their output felt without having to have them turned up too much... I love to feel ambience rather than listen to it.
As for TuneBot numbers, no, I didn't log them (and don't remember them... I filmed those performances a month or more ago). I'm sorry. I can tell you my general approach though: I usually tune batters to the midrange of the drum. For smaller toms this is only maybe a 1/2 turn above finger tight, maybe a touch more, but not much (3/4 or more turns for larger toms). I then even the tension rods, so they're all the same pitch and then make that pitch the 1 in a major scale ("Do" in solfege) and tune the bottom head to a 3rd above ("mi" in solfege). So the batter is "do.." the skip 're' and the bottom head is 'mi.' That is usually my start point. Massage the bottom up or down to taste, but usually it's pretty close with that. That is usually a pretty good starting point for tuning toms that will be close miked. Take them up a 1/2 turn or so (to taste) if you're using mimal miking and the toms will be picked up by overheads only, for instance. The higher tension/tuning will help the toms project into those distant (just NOT close) mics. Otherwise the midrange tuning I described above will translate only as attack with very little pitch or tone in those mics.
Hope that helps! Thanks again for your comment and for being here!
@@drumdotpizza Thanks for the tips. I generally tune my toms very similarly. Are you still going to do a tom video? The snare and bass drum videos you did were very good. Actually I was looking for the snare tune-bot numbers not the toms but since you don't have them anyway, no big deal. I'm always experimenting with different tunings and I like the tune-bot so I can document (and reproduce) the tuning for tunings that I like.
How big was the room where you recorded this video and how far from the kit were the room mics? I'm guessing, by the way it sounded, that it was a fairly large room. One of the local piano stores here had a piano performance room that seated about 75-100 people was fairly large and had nice acoustics. Too bad they closed - it would have been a nice place to try the same thing you did here.
Anyway, again, thanks Joel for the tips. Nice playing, nice recording/mixing/video etc. Blessings...
I feel like the main thing I’m hearing is a difference in the attack in the room mics. The DW sounds “snappier” to my ear and I feel like the harmonics from the snare come through a little different. The Borg sounds less snappy more “gooshy” to my ear on the attack. Relatively subtle though, if you treated the two kits differently at the mixing stage I bet you could get them to sound even closer by tweaking the room EQ and level in comparison to the close mics (if that had been the goal). Awesome comparison vid. I could make either sound work in my recordings, but I’m just a hobby recordist so no real skin in the game.
Agreed. Processing can bring the cheaper drums to life for sure. If you can tune (and use good heads) then it is a truly bad drum that won't produce a decent tone.
Thanks for that video - nice playing! The DW's obviously sounded much better, but that entry level kit sounded really good. The thing I liked about the DWs was they weren't as rolled off hi-end wise. If you mixed them with a band, that extra clarity would give the drums some nice presence. Even though there was some brightness on top, they still can tune low. IME, the DW's and other hi-end kits tune up more easily, project better, and sit at a wider variety of tensions, than the cheaper kits.
Absolutely! Cheap drums are made of lightweight, course-grained wood and aren't sealed at all, so they suck up all the high end as soon as you strike the drum... yields a very abrupt, overall dark tonality where only the attack is bright (making them 'pop' so to speak).
I’ll admit, I had to really lean my ear in to notice the nuanced differences. They were oftentimes quite subtle. Really opens your eyes and ears to things
I find all the examples interesting, but after listening a few times to the close mics only and room mics only, going back to the full mix is suddenly very telling about the differences. Trying to really notice differences followed by casual listening suddenly makes the casual observance quite obvious to me. I also find that the room mics as part of the mix helps reveal what the close mics are capturing as well.
@@drumdotpizza it’s all really fascinating honestly and I think what I appreciated the most about this whole experience was your comments about the sounds of acoustic drums, cheap or expensive, still needing help from mics and mixing.
Not sure if this would help as much but I saw in a short where the very same tom was moved closer/further from it's rack clamp was making a difference. Better sustain overtone when the tom was closer to it's bracing, making the hits resound more than when it was further (where it seemed that the flex was dampening the hit).
I hear a better sustain somewhat overtone from the DW, but I also noticed that the tom of the Bog kit was swaying more from the rack.
Maybe good to investigate.
Keep watching (this is the second comment in row where I've said this) -- I have a video coming shortly that discusses the history of tom mounting and demonstrates not only various types of mounts, but various ways they can be implemented to get the preferred resonance/tone/sustain from each. I'm trying to keep it under an hour long!!!
I'm hopeful that it will be eye opening to many... it already has been to me!
An interesting test at the extremes of the drum world. The Borg was holding its own until the room mics. It would be interesting to have a mid range option like a Pearl Export in the middle to see the difference
This was a great demo and you make a point I've tried to impart to non drummer musician friends looking for a kit for their studios or jam sessions. I can still hear a big difference though. Nonetheless the inexpensive kit is definitely usable in certain situations such as those my friends would need it for. I loved your video on drum heads and shell construction so based on that and my own personal experience I'm not at all surprised that the heads made all the difference in the world. No doubt just about all of the subscribers to your channel have been behind enough fairly decent drum kits at rehearsal rooms that sounded awful because of the beat up heads and general mistreatment. But I have a feeling that the hardware on the inexpensive kit wouldn't hold up to regular gigging. That said, it's amazing how much you can get for your money nowadays. I could definitely use an under $1,000 kit like a Yamaha Stage Custom or Mapex Saturn on just about any pro live gig. I've sometimes had to deal with worse. I wouldn't use one for recording though. Only my best shells because that's where you can really hear the difference. But I think it comes down to build quality. As long as the hardware and shell construction is decent you can work with it. And that's really what's coming out of the factory kits made in China nowadays. They are solid and very workable. As you said though that wasn't the case in the past. So if a beginner or novice bought a 20+ year old entry level drum kit at a yard sale they might get lucky but there's a good chance they'd end up with something much less workable than yours. It might require not just replacing heads but upgrading hardware and possibly dealing with out of round shells and questionable bearing edges. I've seen some youtubers trying to make a similar point who've failed to point out that the hardware and drumheads to make the old beginner kit they bought online barely passable required pouring in another $400-$500 into it. At that point a student drummer or novice on a tight budget could have gone ahead and bought a new budget kit and had something far and away better.
You sound like a kindred spirit!! Please keep watching... I'm filming a video right now modifying a mid-level drum kit (two actually) to show just how good drums can be with even a modest investment (so long as you're willing to finish the production that was arrested at the factory). That video should post in middle of October.
Thanks for doing this video. I think the snares on the DW are buzzing though which makes the cheap one sound better.
Perhaps, though I don't think so... I set the tension on snare wires with soft playing and did so with both of these. I think it is more likely that the glossy/reflective interior finish of the DW snare (DW glosses the interior of their Collectors Maple snare drums) keep the mids and high frequencies hanging around longer inside the drum increasing the intensity and length of the wire response.
FWIW I'm sure I like glossy interior finishes on wood drums... I'd just rather use a metal drum instead. The gloss finish with a hardwood shell is just a sound that has never settled itself well in my hearing. I prefer darker tones for wood drums (though not as abrupt and dead 'pop' as the snare I used with the Borg kit except for certain needs). Hard, sealed wood interior, yes. Gloss? Not so much.
Thanks for the video! Its interesting to compare different kits. I also like your room aspect. I made a Video with one room mic and the same distance of each kit to show how drums sound the way they do. "10 different drum kits - one mic .... " is the title. Greets, j.
With good heads and tuning you can make any cheap set sound as good as an expensive one and a cheap set is the way to go budget wise if you're just looking for a practice set. For a gig set you might want a little better quality simply because the mounting hardware is much stronger and will last far longer when constantly taking the set apart and putting it back together. I always had a low-end practice set that stayed at home and a better-quality gig set that I would only play at gigs. That of course was when I was still gigging lol.
There’s a hand feel I’ve found in my more pricey kits I never got from my cheap ones. I would also say the quality of the hardware vs the level of that cheap kit is a huge difference. Fit and finish.
We all know that cheap Yamaha stage custom that made people scratch their heads wondering why they spent so much though. I really found a fondness for the gretsch Catalina club kit as well.
IVE HAD A YAMAHA Stage CUSTOM FOR ABOUT 7 MONTH NOW and can honestly say it stacks up well against my $4000 Canopus kit. I think for sure the heads make a big difference but also Yamaha chooses to use quality hardware on their kits.
Yes, the feel of more expensive kits gives greater response to the dynamics of playing for sure. And the hardware... yes, nicer drums have MUCH nicer hardware.. smoother, more flexible, more robust, and better chrome!! Those factors, however, were not the scope of this particular video which I only wanted to deal with the actual sound/tone, but yes, there are many other things that go a long way to justify the significantly greater expense of a kit like the DWs.
The dw is just just a bit louder and punchier than the Borg kit. The Borg doesn't sound bad at all. I play a slightly cheaper kit, and when I figured the Best heads fot that kit and the Best tuning for that it, that was it. I do need to tune it every time I play, but that takes a few minutes, but that is all you need. And for comparison, you will tune your guitar also before you play anything. Thank you for this video, man, it was an educational take on this endless cheap vs expensive competition.
This video shows once more that nowadays you can buy a budget drumset and you can make it sound pretty good. I wish we had starter drumsets like these when I began playing drums in 1969. It's needs to be tuned properly and one should use good drumheads. And ususally there lies the problem: people that buy cheaper drums often are still young beginners or drummers that don't invest in new drumheads or in the knowledge of tuning. It's my experience that the hardware, the durability of the lugs, staying in tune etc. are way better with more expensive drums.
And that's also an important factor!
The DW sounds better, no doubt. However, for this improvement you have to pay a whole lot more. Details are expensive. 😊
By the way: nice tuning, nice playing! 👍
In my humble opinion, all drums can sound acceptable if proper tuning techniques be applied as well as how the drummer plays, a good technical drummer can make anything sound awesome because it will become his sound. In terms of the tools, in mi opinion you can “cheap” on anything on the drums EXCEPT on snare and cymbals. Cheaper snare drums tends to lack that “bite” that costly ones have. Cymbals, well there’s no way of masking them up to sound pretty. Other thing to consider is that in the grand scheme of things, meaning on a dense mix, kick and toms tend to sound the “same” (dry, punchy, and focused), not the case with snares and cymbals. Excellent video.
Well said! Thank you for your comments.
The cheap snare has some cool crack on the room mics, cool comparison, thanks!
I love that snare... an SPL Unity model (I think they only came with the original Unity kits they made many years ago, but I got that one off ebay for $50 shipped. It was NOS, and all I did was true the edges and widen the snare beds to give it a broader, more useful tuning range. Otherwise stock, and it produces lovely staccato, mellow, midrange backbeats.
Honestly that Borg sounds better to me. It's drier sound, but has a more full sounding midrange that would set better in a mix than the DW. The snare especially on the DW lacks the low mids that the Borg has.
Beauty is indeed in the ear of the beholder! I don't disagree... I think each tonality has its place in music. That's why I have so many different types of drums (at least that what I tell my wife! ;)
The difference? Is in your ability to get the sounds YOU want from the kit, and then hold on to em. Cheap will require more work. Shell THICKNESS made most noticeable difference for me, cheap or expensive. Also if you are being mic'd there is less difference. For me, cheaper, mid grade Pearl, meant I could pick up my bass drum and connected tom, up overhead, and toss it to the stage edge, replacing anything that broke a lot cheaper...of coarse that was the old school Hardcore days so take what you want from it.
I agree w/ many of post below. I have the Taiwan made Pearl Exports from the 80's. But have all new Evans heads that have been carefully tuned. I'm quite happy w/ the sound. For live? Certainly good enough. Besides being easier to tune (and keep such) w/ expensive drums....they have superior hardware. I had to modify my kit's hardware to suit my setup needs. (also converted rack tom to a suspension mount) But yes....the player matters most. Mike Portnoy has a video where he kills it on a Hello Kitty kit's kit!. Oh....I do have a Supraphonic snare though. Man do I love that puppy. Evans dry batter. Stands are all Tama.
Please keep watching.. I am finishing a video that describes how you can take your kit to an even higher level of performances. Don't want to give it all away just now... will be posting in mid-October, so keep an eye out!
The DW snare definitely sounded tighter and brighter. The toms were good on both kits. The lows sounded more controlled on the DW kit. The Borg kit still sounded good and usable. I bought an old 90s Ludwig kit and fitted them with new Evans Heads, sounding good.
My opinion: There is a sweet spot between price and sound. There are models out there that will give you the (perceptively) best sound for the money you pay that is up par with high-end drum sets. Let's be honest-- people won't really know the sonic differences of a similarly-sized/spec'd Tama Starclassic, a Pearl Session Studio and a Yamaha Stage Custom, especially in the context of a mix. Nothing wrong with getting very expensive kits, especially if it has a good story behind it and/or if you feel good playing behind it.
Things I would look for in a "great value" drum set:
- evenly-worked bearing edges (the most important to me)
- well-laid drum wraps
- above-entry level hardware (lugs, hoops)
- medium to heavy duty stands
- Bonus: if the shells are entry-level Maple or Birch at the minimum
Yes to all of that!!
Margins of diminishing returns definitely applies here. And, of course, depending on how you record (or amplify) a drum kit, (signal path, processing, etc.) much of this can be tossed out the window.
We live in a great time of drum (and pro audio) equipment technology!
@@drumdotpizza The question is, at what price range is the "sweet spot" for finding those bang for the buck drum kits? While I know there are different price segments out there, there is definitely a price range that encapsulates those bang for the buck kits. Would be great to know your opinion in a separate video :)
@@andrewlauchengco7923 Well I am doing a video that should post middle of October about this very subject.
The most bang for-for-the-buck drum kits out there are borderline top quality kits that lack a few processes for features to finish them well, usually. There are some considerations like the expense of shell material (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) such as inexpensive wood with an interior 'finish ply' that visually presents better than the wood the rest of the shell is made from (Tama Rockstar and Pearl Export for example) or just all-poplar shells that look nice but are very light weight, but all lack some final processes (or more care in those processes) that keep them from being top notch kits. They usually also have lower lug count (comparatively) on some diameters compared to 'professional' drums, but I generally find this to be less of a concern if the edges are excellent (which can be made so if they weren't already from the factory).
And the MOST bang-for-the-buck will be in used kits, "pre-loved' as it were. My favorite high-quality/low cost drums are the earlier Pacific (not yet 'PDP') maple shell drums that were made in Mexico -- CX, MX, LX, SX. They used legit North American sugar maple shells (same as DW Collectors) as opposed to 'European Maple' of the current Concept Maple series (which is actually a different species of wood (called 'sycamore' in many places around the world) that is about 2/3 the hardness of sugar maple. These early maple drums were made in Mexico (cheaper labor) had no reinforcing rings, were not fine sanded or sealed interiors, and were only available in limited sizes, all of which made producing them (and their final cost) affordable. Complete 22/10/12/14 kits with a snare from those lines can be had now for $300-400 pretty regularly. If you're okay truing an occasional edge (or having someone do that) and then fine sanding and sealing the interiors you'll have a fantastic kit for very small investment.
Anyway, I'm similarly modifying a couple of mid-level drumkits to fully pro status in the video I mentioned above that is releasing next month, so stay tuned, and I think that'll be informative for you.
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment! I appreciate you being here.
One thing to me is that since cheaper drums are cheaper wood… they won’t hold as much abuse either. One thing drum companies do today for real though is that the most expensive and mid range kits are close to comparison.
👍both sound great. The DW sounds cleaner for sure. But honestly if I only heard the cheap kit and you told me it was a DW..I'd believe that!
The more expensive or "professional" drums are of heavier hardware and construction for durability and road-worthiness, but that also mean that the are really heavy to carry around for gigs. As far as sound quality...I would say drumheads and tuning are bigger factors...I would venture to say expensive drumkits tend to be a bit harder on the ears when tuning and listening up-close because many are purposely made for big sound with lots of overtones that can cut thru the sound wall in a live music setting. What sounds good in a quiet room at home wont necessarily sound good in a loud stage and vice versa.
Heads and tuning/muffling are the biggest factors by far, yes. And yes, nicer drums produce greater level across the frequency spectrum (something you can hear in this video). And yes, that makes nicer drums rather hard on the ears up close.
Are you aware of Fletcher Munson curves? They were two guys in who, in the 1930s, put together a frequency chart showing common sensitivity curves for human hearing through the audible spectrum. Good drums produce more of the frequencies we're sensitive to, so they feel louder though their true amplitude (expressed by a meter) may not be all that different.
I just love all this geeky stuff!!!
I like the silver Borg kit you brought. More musical.😮
One comment … all Gretsch 12” drums have 5 lugs. But point taken on using less hardware on the drum makes it cheaper to manufacture (I.e., Ludwig Club Date drums).
The Gretsch drums, at least with the old ones, had die cast rims as well, which helps with the five lug thing. Although I have an SP 12" tom with five lugs and rather thin hoops, and it does fine.
@@johnseal56 Gretsch drums have used die cast hoops on there drum since the thin six ply shell of the 60s. The early 3 ply broadcaster kits had triple flange hoops in the 50s. My point was 5 lugs on 12” toms do work, but on cheap drums it’s about saving money!
the only flame wars I've ever got into is with people insisting there's a huge difference between materials when the plainly is barely any if any at all
If you "lucky enough" to have fantastic expensive or exotic drum kit should take you very little time and effort to obtain a cheap old kit or a beginner catalogue special, so to speak & find out for yourself...
I'm not sure where I personally fall on that spectrum... I definitely hear significant differences between drums at times, and have been amazed that others absolutely did not, and other times I'm the one scratching my head when others are clearly noticing something that escapes me (my experiences have been more of former than the latter, but I have plenty of both).
I hear definite differences in types of wood used (primarily harder vs. softer woods), but excellent craftsmanship combined with properly sealing the wood of the shell goes a long way toward filling that gap. My experience with lightweight drums made of softer wood (like poplar) has commonly been that they tend toward a staccato character that lacks comparative volume, clarity and sustain... but then I played Noble & Cooley's Tulipwood drums (tulipwood being in the poplar family with expected traits), and they have all the depth, authority and sustain I could ever want. N&C does a far nicer job of building their drums than Borg does, I'm quite sure, and therein lies (I believe) the greatest difference.
@@drumdotpizza all good points and I guess things go even more "out the window" when there's a actualband playing too…?
I think the main difference is in resale value
-a cheap kit drastically loses enormous amounts of it resale but a pricey kit will lose less so if you think of it in terms of 'renting a kit', so to speak, by buying it and selling it on and considering any loss as being the amount you paid for 'rental' then an expensive kit IS better value but TONE wise?
There is a fascinating video that DW brought out where they excavate a Prehistoric log that's been preserved in an Ancient Peat Bog in eastern Europe; flying it out to their workshop and then slice it up into very thin veneers(🤷♂️!!) & then turn it into Neil Peart's favourite drum kit!
Who knows ?
The DW seemed to have the authority, definition on the toms the cheap kit barely made, but the room mic on the cheap kit was a huge improvement, it was weird and funky and i digged it much and more
This really ties well in with my own experience of using a vintage Premier kit vs a modern kit with sharper edges and more mass in the shell and hardware.
The Premier 58’ kit feels better to play in my environment and also sounds really good under mikes. The modern kits projects better, has a clearer tone and more sustain to the sound. But those qualites are just not always diserable in every situation.
Softer, lighter shells will produce shorter, punchier sounds with less sustain. Many vintage kits fall into this category!
I am agreeing with the other folks. Good tuning and a great player makes a good drum sound. Although I do think that the DW is far better over all because of its darker, richer tones. That being said, they would both work in any situation.
The DW would be much better in an acoustic un-mic’d venue
BEWARE: 15 minutes of TALKING before the comparison-
It's true. That's why I put the time selections in the description, so people can skip to the part they really want (though I think the explanation is helpful for those who don't mind a little rambling ;)
That was a really useful comment
Thank you!
I'd be willing to bet most people that subscribe to this channel are interested in his introduction. We've all seen countless comparison videos with the same premise. I appreciate the insight.
@@drumdotpizzakeep on rambling, i subscribed after 2 videos and only because of your rambling! Big up from Serbia!
Under mics and mixed one can definitely make a cheap kit sound good as is evident here. But, in person and even with good heads and tuning, you can hear a difference. It's like the "High-end" kits are more refined, but more importantly, a high-end kit feels better to play in every way! Build quality, under the stick, the way the Bass feels and plays etc etc. There are actually some pretty big differences between cheap and expensive kits when playing them.
100%!
Joel you have done an absolutely amazing job with that Borg kit lol.
I tell my students all the time that you can make any kit sound relatively good these days with decent heads and tuning and this really proves it. It's the cheap cymbals really let's the kits sound down.
I would actually really like to know what you did with the cheap 6 lug share to get it sounding so crispy though without any muffling???
I mean my students cheap cymbals btw not what you're using... Incase there was any confusion lol
@@vlkiller I got you... you're absolutely right. A killer set of drums with crap cymbals is hard to listen to. I don't have students, per se (used to when I was younger, but I don't know that I'm cut out for that type of teaching without maybe going to jail at some point ;) but I do give lots of pointers to people it seems. My son who is a drummer is actually teaching a friend of his to play, and I recommended he help her find a dynamically responsive and good sounding ride cymbal and snare drum. Other things can be compromised (though good hats are great to have too), but since there is so much to learn about touch, dynamic and technique on the ride and snare particularly, it is always good to spend a little extra there to start with, and the whole experience of playing and learning will be much more fun!
Thank you for your kind words! As for the snare, the snare of that kit is actually an SPL Unity snare (basswood shell, I believe, though perhaps poplar). It's an 8-lug drum, not six, FWIW. I chose it for the Borg kit, because the Borg kit actually didn't come with a snare (well... it did, which is the reason I bought the kit in the first place -- it was a pristine Ludiwg Supra-Phonic from the 70s (perfect chrome, no dents or damage) all for $180. So yeah, I bought the kit, wound up selling the Supra (it was beautiful and sounded great, but so does my 1966 Supra with lots of pitting, so I sold the nice one). This is how I wound up with the Borg kit in the first place, so I thought it'd be great to use it for some videos.
Anyway, the SPL snare is of similar build quality, so I paired it with the Borg kit. Unlike the Borg drums, which are totally stock with the exception of the Aquarian heads, I redid the edges on the SPL snare and widened the snare beds and made them symetrical (they weren't quite at 180 degrees from each other when I got the drum). I didn't seal the interior finish, however, so it absorbs high frequencies, making the attack very abrupt and the overall sound quite poppy. I don't need any muffling on it, really, as the shell is so soft that it is something of an insulator to begin with and quickly absorbs energy from the heads resulting in the abrupt quality. That is why I bought the drum, to have this type of voice in my snare collection (and it cost me $50 shipped when I got it new off ebay several years ago).
What can I say? I love 'crap' drums! Thanks for your comments!!
For a period of time in the '70s, Ludwig was making shells out of used poplar pallets that they had scrounged up from other industry for very little, if any, money. Ludwig sold them as premium offerings at that time. Some of those drums currently have a very high resale value and produce a desirable sound.
Learn how to choose the right drumheads for the music you plan to make and learn how to tune your drums in a variety of ways.
You're right, and I believe that's why Ludwig used granitone interior shell spray to mask the difference and make all the shells match from an inner shell visual.
I've never head that they recycled palettes, but they definitely used some thick poplar plies in their thicker 6-ply drum shells of the late 70s and 80s (my favorite Ludwig era, btw!!). Thick maple/poplar shells are so satisfying to play and record!
@@drumdotpizza I don't know for certain if they really used pallets....but pallets are often made of poplar and are plentiful in the area of the factory. I had a customer that would buy weird vintage Ludwig shells off of ebay and bring them to me to modify and make into functional drums...some of the shells he brought me used a number of pieces in each layer, the pieces being about the width of a pallet plank, but run through the planer to make them the right thickness. Run the assembly through the press and boom...a sturdy shell. They sounded great so...
@@drumdotpizza I chuckled to myself the first time I saw it and realized what Ludwig had done....but on second thought, it was recycling. The end result sounded great so more power to them..
In my experience even DW collectors (I own 3 kits) in maple are great but you need a long period of time to find each shell’s sweet spot- I will say if you had a cheap kit compared to say the mahogany purple cores I own they are just fantastic and you can very easily tell
Very interesting to hear. Overall DW sounds...well - like a DW - they do have their own characteristics with I think lot of mids, warm, open, "noble boxy" vibe. The cheap kit sounds...hmmm - vintage in a way? A bit like when you want to make a more mellow sound in a studio and for that you use some vintage kit. I guess - you can do that with a DW kit as well, but not the other way around. You won't make a DW out of Borg.
the only think this is missing it like some of the other comparison vids do is at the end they do a simple back a forth single hit on each drum, it was harder to compare toms are there was always a while of open snare noodling before they kicked in.
One vital element never discussed in these type of videos is …… the feel. When you play a nice set you do not have to play it so hard to get your sound. On a cheap set you need to play them harder. When you “tap” good quality drums. They should sing.
Absolutely true! Well said. I specifically intended to keep this video about only the sound differences though, not discuss hardware, sturdiness, finish, ease of tuning or how well they stay in tune, or the feel of playing them as you mention (though I did discuss this feel factor in my tone woods video several months back, IIRC).
It's always a dance trying to decide how much content to discuss in a single video. I myself have a tendency to talk too much (you might have noticed! ;) so I'm usually trying to scale down the breadth of topics to keep videos a bit more focuse (and under an hour in length! ;)
But yes, I don't enjoying forcing the sound out of cheap drums as much I do simply expressing myself on good ones!
The room one plays in also matters a lot.
The talking intro is a bit long. Maybe edit that down a bit. Cool comparison, cheers!
The Borg toms sounded better in every scenario. More tone and resonance. The DW toms sounded lifeless.
I think high end drums have more of a tuning range and can give you more sound options. You can buy a cheaper kit, and they are built very well depending on the brand, and you can get a good but specific sound. You pay extra for something versatile and customized, more finishes and size options
Absolutely. Well said!
The difference is huge in the feel. When you play the drums and when you are listening them live. Through the mics and preamps, the difference is less audible, specially if you tune the drums that low, the toms and bass drums (if they are muffled) will sound the same. If you tune them at higher pitches and don't muffle the BD, the gap would be much more clear.
Very true! A good point. I chose my typical midrange tuning (for toms) and pop (thud) kick, since that is pretty common in modern music, but yet, tension them to sing and project more and the differences do become a bit more apparent. What is interesting though (in my opinion) is the higher, jazzier (boppier?) tunings favor the cheaper drums as they're more abrupt, and that vibe fits bop playing to my ear. Wouldn't hurt to seal or paint the interior of the drums, but that would indeed be an interesting comparison. Maybe I'll do a part two in the not-to-distant future.
Great idea, thank you!!
Oh, and yes, feel is totally different between these kits (I much prefer the response of the DW as a player), but I chose to ignore hardware and feel issues in favor of only the sound as a listener for this video.
@@drumdotpizza It would be a great comparison... but I agree that the difference in sound does not justify the difference in price. Thanks for the video man! Cheers!
My idea when I started drumming was to buy a nicer more expensive kit when I got better. Well, years later , a few different heads and better tuning wisdom I like what I started with. I did have to buy a supraphonic though lol.
Both kits did sound good but l liked the DW better. Just hate those round lugs.
I knew this already and yet was still amazed at how close they sounded! (Fun fact, my first kit 19 years ago was Borg from Costco ... Have never seen that name anywhere else til now 😊. Of course since I was new to drumming I didn't know how to tune them for their best.)
The biggest difference in sound was with only room mics, where the DW was more resonant and lively sounding. Since I play unmiked almost exclusively that's important to me.
The close mics are the great equalizer, which is a little odd to me. The miking technique makes about 100x the difference compared to one kit VS the other 😮
Yes, the miking/processing/mixing goes a long way toward filling the gap between the sonics of good and bad drums.
So Borg is from Costco?? I have seen a couple of these kits online, but this one I ran across a few months ago on local Craigslist ad (complete with Borg cymbals and full hardware) for $180 total.
Oh, and the $180 also included a pristine Ludwig Supraphonic snare drum!!! ;) I sold the Supra (got my money back and then some) and then had the rest of the kit, which was perfect for some videos I had in mind (including this one).
Costco drums. Interesting...
I've seen them at Sam's back in the day as well.
@@johnseal56 yeah actually it probably was from Sam's.
@@drumdotpizza 180 WITH A SUPRA??? 🤯 Nice...
Mine was that full set with flimsy hardware and brass cymbals which were terrible 🤣
finally, thanks.
Liked both but I did think the more expensive kit sounded a bit better.
I prefer the snare on the cheap kit. Has a tighter sound that I like.
Low mass and soft wood = short, 'poppy' sound. That's why I have that snare in my collection! An SPL Unity snare (I think it came only with the Unity kit they made many years back, but I got it on ebay for $50 shipped... WORTH IT!!
By all means, debate away on the kits. However, that first snare drum though! 🥵🥵
Today people are spending thousands on "finishes" that'll eventually get scratched to death. I remember when I started it was pick your favorite wrapped solid even on maple shells.
like he said, don't waste your time and money on high end drums. I've been playing for 43 years, gig alot and most of my money goes to cymbals. I can pretty much get any sound i want from most entry to mid level drum kits with selecting heads and proper tuning. I do of course have some high end snare drums, DW maple is my main. I mostly play an X7 ply maple PDP kit that sounds excellent, especially the kick, i'm always amazed how great it sounds wide open, unmic'd, no pillow or muffling, just because its got the right head combo and perfect tuning. Higher end drums can def be more durable, have nicer finishes, and offer more features, but just for sound, you can get pretty close just with heads, and tuning, also don't underestimate upgrading your tuning rods or lugs, cheap and easy.
Most all mid-level kits are really close to top of the line kits that lack the last bit of craftsmanship that owners themselves can apply. I'm working on a video right now that will be out in a few weeks where I do precisely that with a Pacific F-series birch kit and a Tama Rockstar kit (lauan with inner ply of basswood). A little elbow grease can go a long way!!
I think it is really hard to do this unless you are in a studio room purpose built to record drums, otherwise you have to process them a little, I record in my bedroom and have a 170 dollar audio interface, my drums are nice, and I have an audix mic set, but dry through a behringer interface in my bedroom they sound woofy as hell lol, it has been a struggle for sure, I always like the sounds you get in your room Joel, they sound pretty damn good. Your also a great drummer too. Good video have not seen ya in while.
I've not been uploading regularly as I've been trying to get other professional commitments off my plate, so I can focus more on this channel. A rather daunting venture, particularly for an old fart like me who still feels somewhat embarrassed even telling people I have a RUclips channel... but it's fun, I'm hoping it will be helpful to lots of people, and am excited to see what could happen with more time spent on consistent uploads (and my wife is on board too!).
So, Lord willing, you'll be seeing me just about every week from this point on.... ;) Thanks for being here!
Depends VERY much on the brand and the current economic state of that brand. You can have your DWs that will sell you a very good kit for 4000$, OR, you can have a brand that aims to rebrand itself / gain customer base and sell you a very good kit (maybe 95% of a DW) for 1500$. This what you want to search for. I recently got a 6 piece Mapex Armory kit for a mere 800$ and it`s very much up there with a 3000$ DW. So my point is cheap drums are not always bad and expensive drums are not always excellent. You got to look for the underdog. Anyway, great presentation. I found the DW kit to have a bit more presence and detail but not very much over the cheap kit.
It is also worth noting (but virtually impossible to demonstrate in a video) the differences that are perceived in the room with the drums that aren't captured by the microphones. Microphones themselves, even really costly microphones, impart such a strong character to drums when miked close that it is hard to undo or avoid, and often this character misses much of the uniqueness presented by different drums. Ditto the impact of esoteric (vintage, expensive) microphone preamps on the sound. The sound of drums, whether amplified or recorded, often comes down to tuning and processing rather than much to do with anything other than the base tonality common to most any drum.
@@drumdotpizza I agree, even without any hardware, different ears different sounds. I listened to beautiful records with crap drums but very well engineered. I don`t know if you noticed but each drum invited you to play slightly different so that`s another aspect, how the whole drum assembly guides the performance into a certain way.
Oddly it’s the snare I find the most similar. The tons and kick sound very different to me. I could totally work with that cheap snare in a mix.
I LOVE that cheap snare... an SPL Unity model (poplar shell, raw interior). I got it off ebay for $50 new (came with a Unity kit, but the seller already had a good snare, so sold the included one). Soft, light wood makes for abrupt, staccato backbeats!
I get the impression that one of the big differences is that you enjoy playing the DWs more. And who could blame you.
You are right!! Nice drums are easier to play.... literally. They respond without so much effort required.
But that part of the comparison was outside the scope of this video ;)
It’s a similar concept as a car. A cheap Kia can get you from point A to point B. Some people prefer a nicer car.
In context: a person who spends a lot of time in their car is more likely to spend a little more on it. It is similar with instruments.
Personally I think that more expensive kit is overall more enjoyable to play.
I enjoy the feel of drums made with harder shells, personally. The DWs are very responsive to my touch, but the Borg drums, with their softer shells, do have a sound that is cool.
A Kia Telluride EX-Line IS the DW kit.
A cheap kit tensioned well sounds great, but loses tension quickly and sounds poorer after a set of music, especially when climate changes (AC car to outdoor heat or colder box truck to indoor heated venue).
As far as sound actually preferred the cheap kit but I'm not all that surprised as I prefer a more vintage sort of sound with a bit less attack. I'd still never want to deal with the cheap hardware and difficulties tuning a kit like that.