Thank you so much! I really tried to break it down for people. There's a real block that players struggle with when it comes to fiction first/narrative led games. I just want people to see how cool it can be!
The co-op Starforged combat example video in the description has moved. I probably can't post a link but FYI it's called "Ironsworn: Starforged | Co-op Combat w/Jenna Figgers" if you want to search for it.
Great stuff Matt! Totally agree with the director/scene based mindset - I found that really helped me in general, not just with combat, when moving to ptba styles games. It actually also helps when I solo rpgs with more turn based combat rules aswell, by forcing me to slow down an envision what is happening, rather than just rolling dice until someone 'wins'. Looking forward to the return of Archer!
Excellent guide! I liked how you started with the structured mini-game of combat in traditional RPGs, and compared it to action scenes in a movie. That's a great lens to view PbtA / Ironsworn combat.
One of the rabbit holes I disappeared down whilst making this (which explains why it took so long) was that I re-edited the fight in Balin's Tomb into turn order to illustrate what I meant. It was a neat exercise, but ultimately it was labouring the point.
I’m very thankful for your channel. Coming from a background who has only really played various flavors of DnD, I completely bounced off of Ironsworn the first time I looked at it because it was just so foreign to how my brain saw the game that I couldn’t understand it. Watching season one right now, and two episodes of Book’s adventures got me to understand it and I’ve now played a successful session and am excited to continue. Thank you!
Thanks for the great explanation! Although they don't have 'stats' for NPC's, couldn't a Feature be something like "Very clever: any use of Wits against this opponent is at -2". Seems like it would make sense to have a way to make some attributes more advantageous than others to use against particular foes, so it's not all just the same.
Hey there! A lot of that stuff is handled narratively, so there's no real 'need' to stat up the NPCs. It does put the pressure on you, the player to make it interesting, but it is a challenge I personally really enjoy. To use your example, if going up against a clever NPC, I would tailor my moves and outcomes for hits/misses accordingly. Thanks for watching!
Anothe great video. There is one point which I don't yet have a feel for about combat and how best to run it in starforged, and that is character death. Possibly there will be some campaign spoilers in this comment for those who have not watched it all yet... Archer has been in a lot of tight situations, and we often hear that he is hanging on by a thread. But I don't really understand how one would decide that he actually had run out of luck (and I understand that this is entirely going to depend on the player, so am really asking about your own playstyle). It seems that when there is a miss, even with a match, there is a complication, or a new peril, or a reduction in resource, but could you imagine a scenario where he would simply not make it? Would it only be if the various health, spirit, etc., tracks had run down, or almost never (or just never)? I realise that this would abruptly terminate the story, and so is probably undesirable, but I am wondering how best to balance in my own play the needs for a satisfying narrative with having the tension of potential disaster. And would you be more cavalier about it with NPCs? Presumably yes - but I ask as the Conduit was in a pretty bad way and yet even with that bad miss is still with us. Would it have made a difference if Archer did not have a relationship track in play with her? Still fascinated by the system, but this is probably the point which I am furthest from getting to grips with in how to run it in a satisfying way, so your own views would be really interesting.
Hey there! Thanks for the question, it's a good one! Archer has had his share of misfortunes for sure, but he's only been genuinely close to being killed once, which is when he was down to 0 health on Paxton Hold. That was narratively appropriate because it was his lowest point, but there was also a dice roll involved which saved him from outright death. Had I rolled outright death, I'm not sure what I would have done, but it certainly wouldn't have made for a fitting end so I think I would have found another narrative solution to that failure. (I actually talk about this a bit more in the 1K Q&A episode if you want to hear me expand). The most important part of playing this game is managing failure and learning how to fail. My first stab at playing OG Ironsworn saw my character die after about 45 minutes of play where he was quickly killed by a low level bandit because I rolled poorly and didn't fully understand how to fail. Since then, I have learned better how to manage bad rolls and failure. With regards to NPCs, I have certainly been happy to kill them off in the past. Poor Severinus Kain was a very cool character and one who had a lot of narrative possibilities, but narratively, it made sense for him to go out the way he did. It also gave me the opportunity to make a comment about the trope of supporting characters making "heroic" sacrifices in fiction. The Conduit was the person who got this whole story moving in the first place, so she's not done yet! That said, she is not safe from being killed off if it is narratively appropriate in that moment. No-one is! Except Griff maybe. I will give my life for that toaster. Thanks again for the thoughtful questions and I really do hope you take the plunge and play. Most of my apprehensions about playing dissipated the moment I started and it all just clicked. It was a leap of faith and a steep learning curve, but one I have loved!
I'll jump in with a question here. Maybe more of an observation. This isn't actually a question about your explanation or a clarification, your monologue is super clear and I believe I understand how starforged runs it's combats. @8:36 you talk about getting into the fight. You just finished talking about how the scene of the fight is set up like a movie, how the narration and game fiction set the tone, and how you "run" a fight like a tv show, movie, novel, etc. Fair enough. But then you say "the narration will tell you how difficult the fight is". Ok, yes, that's the rules of the game. But why are you talking about it like that? A difficulty track is a timer. The longer the timer is, the more resources will be expended, the more opportunities for cool scenes/actions/twists will show up. You can set the difficulty of the fight by the narrative surroundings, but why? If you're taking a fiction first approach, surely the right way to set the fight length is "how interesting will a long fight be? Is this a climatic scene? Is the audience interested?" So... why switch from "how to make the scene cool" (movie logic) to "game world fiction demands we follow these rules" (a much more fixed reality)?
Hi there. Thanks for watching and thanks for taking the time to leave me this feedback. I guess this is where Starforged is interesting, because it straddles the line between fiction and game so nicely, there's a nice tension between the two. You can certainly take your personal approach down either route and there is sufficient support for both. Thanks again!
These have been so well timed and very informative as I just recently ordered starforged. Currently working through your season 2 series. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for a very helpful video! At @13:55 you mention that Clash is a much more dangerous Move if you miss. As I understand it Strike, React Under Fire and Clash all have identical effects on a miss (Bad Spot + Pay the Price). Are you talking about the narrative, or did I miss something in the mechanics?
Hey there! Yes, I'm mainly talking about misses narratively here, but what I was getting at is that Weak Hits are worse if you're in a bad spot. You Pay The price on a Clash whereas you don't on a Strike. You also stay in control on a weak hit when you Gain Ground. I was generally painting the picture of consequences of weak hits and misses being worse when you aren't in control. That doesn't necessarily come across clearly, but that's what I meant! I'll also be much harsher with weak hits/misses from a narrative point of view when I am in a bad spot, rather than in control. Thanks for feeding back!
you are explaining the moves very well. But my question is how do you read the dice? what do you add or take away from the roll? Show me examples, please. so I know what I need to see if I succeed or fail?
Your co-op link appears to not be working. I was hoping to get a good example of ironsworn/starforged combat where say 2 heroes are fighting against like 6 or 7 enemies. I want to know how to play out things like that with my wife.
I know this is an old video now, so you probably won't see this. But what if I don't want to do any combat? I want to experience an exciting story but no combat. Can I do this in starforged?
Of course you can! You can play whatever sort of game you want in Ironsworn and if you want to ignore combat, then you can totally do that. You’re deciding what happens! If you narratively found yourself in a position where conflict was inevitable, you could always use Face Danger to navigate it. Thanks for watching!
Hi there! I’m afraid I don’t know of any. I hear a lot of people talk about 4 against darkness but I’ve not played it myself. Good luck finding something for you and thanks for watching!
Geez.. Coming from Savage Worlds, this feels totally impossible for my brain to grasp. It feels so non-personal and non-immersive to just choose moves all the time.
Thanks for taking the time to watch! It's actually quite the opposite. It's the most immersive system I've played, because you don't really choose the moves, the fiction *triggers* the move. You're just telling a story and then every now and then you roll some dice. And the moves are simplistic so as to not break that immersion. But I get that narrative first isn't for everyone! Thanks again for stopping by and pitching in!
So, I guess you either moved on or figured this out already, but I will go anywhy. You never choose moves in this game. That is not how is meant to be played. How this goes is: your character dpes something and this triggers a move. Which move is dependant on the action itself, the context and how it is made. Choosing moves before the fiction beags the purpose of the game being narrative first.
I really don't like how it's "pay the price" instead of "take harm." The players should always do everything they can to not die. And if the game never forces the character to take harm, then you have to voluntarily move your character closer to death in the name of a "good story." Not a fan of that.
That's fiction first gaming though right? Whatever is happening in the fiction might not appropriately manifest as physical damage? The point of games like this is to tell a good story, not tick down hit points. And you only have 5 harm you can suffer. Taking harm every time you fail a dice roll against anything but the weakest enemies will see your character dead very quickly...
@@thebadspot Twilight 2000 only has 4 hit points (harm). And the rules state that if you are shot at, and fail, you take damage. If your character dies, they die. You are to blame for putting them in the bad situation. That sounds like good narrative to me. And I’m not saying twilight 2000 is a good game. I’m saying, there are plenty of OSR games with tiny health points that have you die in 1 or 2 hits. And MAKE you take damage if you fail in combat. This game sounds like you have to wait for players to volunteer their character to die for a good story. That’s not a game. That’s an improv exercise
This is one of those seminal “how to solo RPG” videos that I have shared everywhere I can think of.
Thank you so much! I really tried to break it down for people. There's a real block that players struggle with when it comes to fiction first/narrative led games. I just want people to see how cool it can be!
6:49 I got to respect a man that puts Hard Boiled clips in his narrative combat example.
No one on their right mind could talk about great action sequences without including some peak Woo.
The co-op Starforged combat example video in the description has moved. I probably can't post a link but FYI it's called "Ironsworn: Starforged | Co-op Combat w/Jenna Figgers" if you want to search for it.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll fix that!
Great stuff Matt! Totally agree with the director/scene based mindset - I found that really helped me in general, not just with combat, when moving to ptba styles games. It actually also helps when I solo rpgs with more turn based combat rules aswell, by forcing me to slow down an envision what is happening, rather than just rolling dice until someone 'wins'.
Looking forward to the return of Archer!
Thank you! Not long to wait now!
Excellent guide!
I liked how you started with the structured mini-game of combat in traditional RPGs, and compared it to action scenes in a movie. That's a great lens to view PbtA / Ironsworn combat.
One of the rabbit holes I disappeared down whilst making this (which explains why it took so long) was that I re-edited the fight in Balin's Tomb into turn order to illustrate what I meant. It was a neat exercise, but ultimately it was labouring the point.
I’m very thankful for your channel. Coming from a background who has only really played various flavors of DnD, I completely bounced off of Ironsworn the first time I looked at it because it was just so foreign to how my brain saw the game that I couldn’t understand it. Watching season one right now, and two episodes of Book’s adventures got me to understand it and I’ve now played a successful session and am excited to continue.
Thank you!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you returned to playing this wonderful game. Welcome aboard!
Thanks for the great explanation! Although they don't have 'stats' for NPC's, couldn't a Feature be something like "Very clever: any use of Wits against this opponent is at -2". Seems like it would make sense to have a way to make some attributes more advantageous than others to use against particular foes, so it's not all just the same.
Hey there! A lot of that stuff is handled narratively, so there's no real 'need' to stat up the NPCs. It does put the pressure on you, the player to make it interesting, but it is a challenge I personally really enjoy. To use your example, if going up against a clever NPC, I would tailor my moves and outcomes for hits/misses accordingly. Thanks for watching!
top notch video thank you. very helpful.
Thanks for watching!
Looking forward to your return
The wait is almost over!
I love your tutorials!
Thank you so much! I hope to do some more in the future.
Anothe great video. There is one point which I don't yet have a feel for about combat and how best to run it in starforged, and that is character death. Possibly there will be some campaign spoilers in this comment for those who have not watched it all yet...
Archer has been in a lot of tight situations, and we often hear that he is hanging on by a thread. But I don't really understand how one would decide that he actually had run out of luck (and I understand that this is entirely going to depend on the player, so am really asking about your own playstyle). It seems that when there is a miss, even with a match, there is a complication, or a new peril, or a reduction in resource, but could you imagine a scenario where he would simply not make it? Would it only be if the various health, spirit, etc., tracks had run down, or almost never (or just never)?
I realise that this would abruptly terminate the story, and so is probably undesirable, but I am wondering how best to balance in my own play the needs for a satisfying narrative with having the tension of potential disaster. And would you be more cavalier about it with NPCs? Presumably yes - but I ask as the Conduit was in a pretty bad way and yet even with that bad miss is still with us. Would it have made a difference if Archer did not have a relationship track in play with her?
Still fascinated by the system, but this is probably the point which I am furthest from getting to grips with in how to run it in a satisfying way, so your own views would be really interesting.
Hey there! Thanks for the question, it's a good one! Archer has had his share of misfortunes for sure, but he's only been genuinely close to being killed once, which is when he was down to 0 health on Paxton Hold. That was narratively appropriate because it was his lowest point, but there was also a dice roll involved which saved him from outright death. Had I rolled outright death, I'm not sure what I would have done, but it certainly wouldn't have made for a fitting end so I think I would have found another narrative solution to that failure. (I actually talk about this a bit more in the 1K Q&A episode if you want to hear me expand). The most important part of playing this game is managing failure and learning how to fail. My first stab at playing OG Ironsworn saw my character die after about 45 minutes of play where he was quickly killed by a low level bandit because I rolled poorly and didn't fully understand how to fail. Since then, I have learned better how to manage bad rolls and failure. With regards to NPCs, I have certainly been happy to kill them off in the past. Poor Severinus Kain was a very cool character and one who had a lot of narrative possibilities, but narratively, it made sense for him to go out the way he did. It also gave me the opportunity to make a comment about the trope of supporting characters making "heroic" sacrifices in fiction. The Conduit was the person who got this whole story moving in the first place, so she's not done yet! That said, she is not safe from being killed off if it is narratively appropriate in that moment. No-one is! Except Griff maybe. I will give my life for that toaster. Thanks again for the thoughtful questions and I really do hope you take the plunge and play. Most of my apprehensions about playing dissipated the moment I started and it all just clicked. It was a leap of faith and a steep learning curve, but one I have loved!
I'll jump in with a question here. Maybe more of an observation. This isn't actually a question about your explanation or a clarification, your monologue is super clear and I believe I understand how starforged runs it's combats. @8:36 you talk about getting into the fight. You just finished talking about how the scene of the fight is set up like a movie, how the narration and game fiction set the tone, and how you "run" a fight like a tv show, movie, novel, etc. Fair enough. But then you say "the narration will tell you how difficult the fight is". Ok, yes, that's the rules of the game. But why are you talking about it like that? A difficulty track is a timer. The longer the timer is, the more resources will be expended, the more opportunities for cool scenes/actions/twists will show up. You can set the difficulty of the fight by the narrative surroundings, but why? If you're taking a fiction first approach, surely the right way to set the fight length is "how interesting will a long fight be? Is this a climatic scene? Is the audience interested?" So... why switch from "how to make the scene cool" (movie logic) to "game world fiction demands we follow these rules" (a much more fixed reality)?
Hi there. Thanks for watching and thanks for taking the time to leave me this feedback. I guess this is where Starforged is interesting, because it straddles the line between fiction and game so nicely, there's a nice tension between the two. You can certainly take your personal approach down either route and there is sufficient support for both. Thanks again!
Great overview, Matt. All that hard work paid off!
Thank you!
These have been so well timed and very informative as I just recently ordered starforged. Currently working through your season 2 series. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! Hope it helps and welcome aboard!
Thanks for a very helpful video! At @13:55 you mention that Clash is a much more dangerous Move if you miss. As I understand it Strike, React Under Fire and Clash all have identical effects on a miss (Bad Spot + Pay the Price). Are you talking about the narrative, or did I miss something in the mechanics?
Hey there! Yes, I'm mainly talking about misses narratively here, but what I was getting at is that Weak Hits are worse if you're in a bad spot. You Pay The price on a Clash whereas you don't on a Strike. You also stay in control on a weak hit when you Gain Ground. I was generally painting the picture of consequences of weak hits and misses being worse when you aren't in control. That doesn't necessarily come across clearly, but that's what I meant! I'll also be much harsher with weak hits/misses from a narrative point of view when I am in a bad spot, rather than in control. Thanks for feeding back!
Thanks!
Oh my goodness thank you!
you are explaining the moves very well. But my question is how do you read the dice? what do you add or take away from the roll? Show me examples, please. so I know what I need to see if I succeed or fail?
I’m just talking about hypothetical examples in this video. To learn how the dice work, check out my How to Play video. Thanks for watching!
@15:32 where did you get those cool flat mat black dice?
This is the app I use: apps.apple.com/gb/app/dice-3d-7pixels/id1263339902
Your co-op link appears to not be working. I was hoping to get a good example of ironsworn/starforged combat where say 2 heroes are fighting against like 6 or 7 enemies. I want to know how to play out things like that with my wife.
Try this, it sounds like exactly what you need: Ironsworn: Starforged | Co-op Combat w/Jenna Figgers
ruclips.net/video/TRbzn7Gt0SI/видео.html
I know this is an old video now, so you probably won't see this. But what if I don't want to do any combat? I want to experience an exciting story but no combat. Can I do this in starforged?
Of course you can! You can play whatever sort of game you want in Ironsworn and if you want to ignore combat, then you can totally do that. You’re deciding what happens! If you narratively found yourself in a position where conflict was inevitable, you could always use Face Danger to navigate it. Thanks for watching!
Do you know a dm less rpg more focused on combat (for 3 players coop)?
Hi there! I’m afraid I don’t know of any. I hear a lot of people talk about 4 against darkness but I’ve not played it myself. Good luck finding something for you and thanks for watching!
@@thebadspot Thank you very much!
Geez.. Coming from Savage Worlds, this feels totally impossible for my brain to grasp.
It feels so non-personal and non-immersive to just choose moves all the time.
Thanks for taking the time to watch! It's actually quite the opposite. It's the most immersive system I've played, because you don't really choose the moves, the fiction *triggers* the move. You're just telling a story and then every now and then you roll some dice. And the moves are simplistic so as to not break that immersion. But I get that narrative first isn't for everyone! Thanks again for stopping by and pitching in!
So, I guess you either moved on or figured this out already, but I will go anywhy.
You never choose moves in this game. That is not how is meant to be played. How this goes is: your character dpes something and this triggers a move. Which move is dependant on the action itself, the context and how it is made. Choosing moves before the fiction beags the purpose of the game being narrative first.
I really don't like how it's "pay the price" instead of "take harm."
The players should always do everything they can to not die.
And if the game never forces the character to take harm, then you have to voluntarily move your character closer to death in the name of a "good story."
Not a fan of that.
That's fiction first gaming though right? Whatever is happening in the fiction might not appropriately manifest as physical damage? The point of games like this is to tell a good story, not tick down hit points. And you only have 5 harm you can suffer. Taking harm every time you fail a dice roll against anything but the weakest enemies will see your character dead very quickly...
@@thebadspot Twilight 2000 only has 4 hit points (harm). And the rules state that if you are shot at, and fail, you take damage.
If your character dies, they die. You are to blame for putting them in the bad situation. That sounds like good narrative to me.
And I’m not saying twilight 2000 is a good game.
I’m saying, there are plenty of OSR games with tiny health points that have you die in 1 or 2 hits.
And MAKE you take damage if you fail in combat.
This game sounds like you have to wait for players to volunteer their character to die for a good story.
That’s not a game. That’s an improv exercise
@coryburns4309 that is certainly an interesting take