In Search of the ULTIMATE Ligature
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- #bettersax #saxophone #ligature
Jay Metcalf reviews and compares several saxophone ligatures.
🔥Get Tomorrow’s Vintage Mouthpiece Today. BURNIN’ Mouthpieces: ➡︎ geni.us/Burnin
🎁 Access the FREE BetterSax SHED with tons of sax lessons, pdf downloads and backing tracks HERE: bettersax.com/shed
Beyerdynamic M160 Ribbon microphone geni.us/GWYRs
Correction - Marc Jean ligature has grenadilla wood plate not "ebonite" The model I'm playing is the artistry version.
===========================
⚡️Featured BetterSax Gear
“Designed BY Saxophonists FOR Saxophonists”
===========================
🎷BetterSax Saxophones: ➡︎ geni.us/saxophones
🎷BURNIN’ Mouthpieces: ➡︎ geni.us/Burnin
🎷Jazz Cut Reeds: ➡︎ geni.us/reed
🎷Must Have Accessories: bettersax.com/store
===========================
🎓Want to Study Saxophone with Jay Metcalf?
===========================
🔥 Join the BetterSax Studio for personalized video feedback from Jay as well as new lessons and downloads every month ➡️ bettersax.com/course/studio
💪🏻Get lifetime access to BetterSax courses that have helped 10s of thousands of saxophonists at every level around the world ➡️ bettersax.com/products/
===========================
Connect with us!
===========================
IG: ➡︎ / bettersax
Tik Tok: ➡︎ / bettersax
Facebook: ➡︎ / bettersax
===========================
Subscribe and Listen to the BetterSax Podcast HERE:📱
===========================
➡︎Apple: apple.co/3rmr9no
➡︎Spotify: sptfy.com/OWAr
Our mission here at BetterSax is to help saxophone players improve steadily, while enjoying the process of learning. We aim to help people find sax gear for every budget that delivers exceptional value and performance.
This video is NOT sponsored. Some product links are affiliate links which means if you buy something we'll receive a small commission.
Disclaimer: Please see the link for our disclaimer policy for all of our videos on the BetterSax RUclips channel. bettersax.com/terms
00:00 Intro
02:32 Cheap 2 Screw Special
03:10 Harrison (vintage)
03:48 D'Addario H ligature
04:33 Vandoren Optimum
05:41 Ligaphone
06:39 Bambu Hand-Woven
07:30 Bambu Nova
08:08 SYOS
08:57 Jody Jazz Power Ring
09:58 Theo Wanne Enlightened
11:03 Marc Jean
11:38 Peter Jessen
12:13 BG Duo (Rose Gold)
13:21 Rovner Versa X (config 1)
14:24 Rovner Versa X (config 2)
15:41 Rovner Van Gogh
16:20 Yany Sixs
16:51 Jay's Thoughts on Ligatures
Anyone else addicted to Jay comparing saxophone gear?
Ligature are like shoes. If you are comfortable it's all right. But mouthpiece is a different thing. Honestly I think
Yes I love his videos
thanks, I'll make more...
20 minutes of Jay saying, "Well ... does the job." :D Yes, addicted, and I value his honesty.
Not really
Real talk from Jay here. It's so easy to fall into the "buy gear" trap in the hope that it will somehow make you a better musician when, in reality, practice would be the most effective way to improve your skill (also cost-wise). Even after a couple of decades of playing music (mostly as a hobby) I _still_ sometimes need a reminder that it's the archer, not the arrows.
Thanks Anders, always trying to keep it real.
I wish I could get good enough someday where a different ligature would make a dang bit of difference LOL
No matter how good you get, you're never 100% sure the difference isn't in your head...
The line is from Cannonball on "One for Daddy-O"
Yes!
@@bettersax Pete King borrowed the first part of this line in the MacArthur Park MF1 recording. Love Cannonball
Ive got to say, i appreciate the woven ones more than i thought i would. I saw them and thought “those look childish”, but no, when on the mouthpiece they actually look quite nice. Plus a wee bit to distinguish yours from other instruments always makes me feel a bit more excited to play my instrument. Feels more unique.
You know Jay, throwing a frequency analyzer on these trials might be kinda fun. I would think, to really notice the differences, you would need to be the one behind the mouthpiece/ligature, but seeing the frequencies might help articulate the subtleties of what you're feeling.
Keep in mind even the same person won't play identically moment to moment. It's all still incredibly subjective and contextual. If you're needing to pull out a frequency analyzer, then I have some news...
"If you are a saxophone nerd, like me, having a lot of different ligatures is fun." ~ Love this.
in fairness, Jay could make a ligature out of a piece of spaghetti and bluetack and still sound like a boss :) 🤣😁
thanks
@@bettersax do it
I feel like what makes a ligature good or bad is how well it keeps the reed sealed against the mouthpiece. Personally, I can't hear a difference in tone between anyone of them so if it seals well then it's good in my book
You should also keep in consideration how it makes the reed feels. A good ligature can create more vibration against the mouthpiece and redd just enough to make it feel easier to blow theough. Though you may not necessarily hear the difference you can feel it.
Exactly...the issue is how long the ligature will hold the reed on the mouthpiece securely. The Vandoren Optimum is my go to ligature..
definitely one of the most important factors. Fiddly ligatures are very annoying and can be problematic.
My go to ligature is from a C melody sax , it's German nickel, from the 1920's, and totally fits my alto Meyer perfectly!!!
@@kennyr1161 hi sir, it's just a feeling or it makes it easier for real?
I have an old Selmer Paris ligature. I think is like almost 65 years old and it works great for me on my Meyer 6 Small Chamber alto mouthpiece. Very nice and informative video....thanks for your time.
Great presentation Jay!…You put the whole “ligature subject” in its proper perspective….Thanks!👌😉
Great channel. I don't play sax (bass primarily and guitar more lately) but use this channel to educate myself because my son started this year. But I still find myself watching a lot of these videos, really interesting and well done.
Maybe RUclips is telling you to play the sax 😉
It really HAS been helpful. Your honesty/transparency really appreciated 👍
Great honest analysis Jay - watched this multiple times.
What a fun, entertaining video, with important closing statements starting at about 18 min! An honest look at the importance of what ligatures, if any, make a difference! ...as a beginner, my inner geek will still buy the fancy ligatures for fun and aesthetics! Thanks, Jay!
Thanks Steve. appreciated.
Oh my goodness! Thank you for this honest review! I've actually been watching videos to learn about what to look for in a new ligature for my clarinet. They will play and say, oh this clearly sounds different from the others, and I think they all sound the same. Feel is a different story. I decided to look for a new one for my son who plays alto sax and found this video. It seems like the first honest one I've seen. So refreshing! I think I'll get him the BG Flex in red since it's his favorite color, will look great on his frosted black nickel sax and black and red are his school colors. It's a win all around.
WOW .. I have only 1 alto 1 mouthpiece 1 ligature As a recent widow raising a special needs child I'm so happy at just having these... but like a kid at Xmas - my eyes boggle at your multi- everything!! you are really blessed 🙌🙏💯
takes a long time to collect all that stuff. thanks.
Been playing for 65 years, bari, tenor, alto, and have learned that the best ligature is the one that works best in conjunction with the mouthpiece and reed I am using. Period. The idea of a "best" ligature is no more valid than trying to argue who the best player is. In an emergency (broken ligature) I have used string and no one knew the difference.
I love the JodyJazz Power Ring together with the HR mouthpiece. Feels great, sounds great and looks even greater.
The part I love about that ligature is that it gets a perfect fit every time. It also looks amazing.
I’ve been playing on a Vandoren Optimum Ligature for my tenor forever, and it has served me well. I’ve also used it on my secondary baritone and it works completely fine for that as well.
I love 2 screw vintage ligatures!!! You can have both screws equal tightness, or front screw tighter, or looser, for different feels
I think there is something to the idea that adding or subtracting mass at the ligature will affect the sound. I’m not an engineer, but I know that mechanical impedance comes into play whenever vibrations are being transferred from one material or medium to another. And mass directly affects impedance. So if the ligature is adding mass at the base of the reed, it stands to reason that would effect how the reed’s vibrations are transferred to the air column and the rest of the instrument.
this has always been heavily debated in the sax community. whatever differences there are are subtle
Great Video! I love these reviews they are always so informative! ❤️
thanks Nathan
If and when you stumble upon the ligature that will make a difference - that difference is your sense of connectedness with your horn. Your tone will be pretty much the same but the feedback you receive through your teeth / jaw / skull will be that augmented sense of connectedness. Most players never experience this.
It seems that if the ligature clamps more evenly and over a larger surface, dampens and couples the reed better to the mouthpiece, the sound can be weightier and probably clearer. Could help on the extremes of dynamics too.
Tons of great insight and advice in this video, thanks so much!
thanks for watching!
Agree, I saw once a fantastic sax player in town and I had the chance to see his sax closer and he was using a metallic hose clamp bought it at autozone, was crazy! But the sound of him on his sax was really great
Thank you so much for the video! Theo Wanne has cool plates in different materials and the difference in sound is noticeable. Try it!
I’ve still got my Harrison ligature I bought around 1990. In fact, I played some dance jobs with Shirley Harrison (Mr. Harrison’s widow) in the late 90’s. She was a fantastic piano player. The Harrison ligature was invented/manufactured in Nebraska (Fairbury or Beatrice if I recall).
I've found through the years that almost any ligature works a little better than the one that comes with the horn. First get the right mouthpiece/reed combo to suit the sound you prefer. Heat & humidity variances seem tough on reeds, but some ligatures seem to help more in such situations, allowing the reed to play more freely. Great video.
This is a very helpful video!! Thank you very much for sharing the knowledge
One of your best yet Jay!
thanks Bob!
Not what I expected. It's refreshing to see an influencer not selling the latest "must haves". I'll show my thanks for your unfiltered opinion by subscribing to this channel now.
The line is from cannonball adderley on the somethin’ else record One for Daddy-O. I love that solo!
Saw the titel and thought, " yeah, I hate it too when my francoise louise ultimate ligature is lost somewhere in the case..."
haha
I have this ligature as well ..very pleasing
Like the song, Jay. Yours?
@Keanan Sorry, I meant the background music when he’s talking. Knew of the Cannononball line. Thanks though!👍🏾
The Jody Jazz power ring had the best articulation clarity over the whole range you played, and the bottom end sounded very nice as well. 👍 The BG Duo, and the Rovner Versa-X also in the same class. Yep, the Yani Sixs was good without as gutsy a bottom as the others, and you’re right, very subtle differences. I can make the direct sound brighter or darker depending on how much mouthpiece I take in.
All said and done,
Good advice Jay. 😉
I have been playing a Berg Larsen ligature on my baritone Berg Larsen HR for 32 years. I tried the BG Duo Gold Lacquered and Sliver Plated. Both are excellent tone and vibration. The tone of the gold is it for me. The intonation improved and the vibration is amazing with cane OR the Legere Signature and American cuts. I am done with bad cane at $8 per reed for baritone reeds. Legere all the way! The rubber feet on the BG take a little getting used to when putting it on the mouthpiece but I love the 1 screw. I look forward to trying the Versa when it is back in stock at my favorite retailer.
It was interesting to listen, as a beginner of saxophone! Greetings from Germany! Important what you told about other factors how to improve the sound! Helpful tips! Thanks!
So relaxing watching your videos and informative as always.
Thank you Mike
After I got my silverstein ligature i stopped trying others. It is AWESOME!
It's very important to properly lubricate the single screw (or 2 screws) with cork grease, or synthetic key oil. Even 3 -in-one common household hardware store type oil can be used. It's important to prevent gunk buildup, calcium, grit or dirt from contaminating your screws. Apply oil, work in the oil into the threads by tightening and loosening, then wipe off black contaminated oil with tissue or rag.then reapply fresh oil. Remember, the smoother the threads, the more you can feel the overall tightness when final adjusting the overall screw tension.
I just the single screw leather one and it works great
Ease of use and adjustment on mouthpiece are underrated qualities for a lig. Sure you don’t want it messing with your sound concept too much, but you also don’t want it to shift your reed position when you go to make a small adjustment in a performance.
Thanks so much. Clears a lot of doubt. :)
That's some serious bling ya got there Jay! 😂 I need to invest in a ligature. I only have the ones that came with the mouth pieces I collected.
Thanks for the review! I've been trying to upgrade my sax recently and this is very informative
Glad it was helpful!
Started and still use the Rovner dark. Doesn't seem to matter what Jay uses, he could make a kazoo sound good.
I have the Vandoren Optimum and i love it. I find the plate with the 4 'dots' brightest, and best for me. So far. Who knows, i will mostly likely change my mind, lol, I also have the Rovner, and i agree, the plate not covered is best. I immediately heard a difference when you started playing the BG. Nice!
Hey Jay, another outstanding video. Thank you!
How do you feel about the Optimum vs the Rovner? I play an optimum on my alto but recently got a tenor and was thinking of either getting another optimum or the rovner since its a little cheaper
@@simondufour6319 I prefer the Optimum. It's brighter.
The "Set-up.": The sum total of appearance (horn) (Player) player's grooming standards and posture, pairing of the neck, legature, and reed, for overall sound quality, and specific appearance.
What I play and my overall appearance as I play seem to drive my passion to play. Of course, This
intern is reflected into each note. Richard
Ligatures are definitely a subjective component in the ammo box. Really like how you sound using the power ring. I use gold optimum’s on bot soprano and bari. I use power rings and Olegature’s on alto and tenor depending on which mouthpiece I’m using on either.
yeah, the power ring is really growing on me.
Having various ligatures to choose from can be a help in maintaining a consistent reponse of the set up , baring in mind that reeds, and chops, room accoustics, humidity, air pressure, altitude, planetary alignments, solar winds, etc can change the feel of the set- up.So for me having various ligature options helps me sound the SAME for each performance, and assists me staying close to my "ideal" set- up sound and response. Before each gig I "audition"3 or 4 ligs and go with my favourite for that particular setting.
Jay, no fair. You sound great on every set-up! -Bill
Thanks for listening
I’m a complete beginner and bought yamaha 4c mouthpiece and some cheap ligature with two screws, it was the only option in the shop so i’m pretty unhappy with it. Thank you Jay for such awesome video!
I just got the Yani SIXS for my A-4. It made a huge difference on the low notes
It's a wonder Jay can play at all? When does he practice? He never stops making videos 😱
This video made me switch back to the Versa on my main horn--and flip the flaps around lol. I thought it was almost too much, but the fact it gave the most distinctive sound (and in a good way) was pretty obvious. I got the original Versa on clearance and it's great but without cramming a tiny piece of paper/cardboard under the plate it will fall out. Probably why it was initially redesigned.
Based on this video, I purchased a Vandorem optimum. I am extremely happy as I finally got that bright alternative rock I’ve been looking for using the “crinkle cut” plate. The other two plates will definitely give you a warmer sound… Good for jazz.
Mic sounds great!!
I have been playing the optimum ligature for a number of years and I'm very happy with it. To me, the different plates make a suble but consistent difference. Great video once again. Thanks much.
yeah that is one solid ligature for sure.
A simple piece of string is the benchmark of all ligatures. Hand tied string (waxed silk cord) is still used in Germany, going back to the 19th century.
The nice thing with the woven ligature is you can stuff one in your case somewhere and if you break one or step on it and then lost your backup or nobody’s got a spare ligature it will be there tucked away in the crack of your case. I keep a rovner just for that emergency. Rovners tend to shift the reed around in my opinion
This is a good demo. I've been playing the Vandoren optimum ligature forever and it works with my set up. I've been tempted to try something else for fun, but I think I'd be asking for trouble 😊
Fascinated by all the lower jaw movement. Good video on ligs.
haha, yeah my classical sax teacher would not approve.
Optimum will always be number 1 for me. It’s held the reed on my mouthpiece for about 5 years now!
those are great ligs. I have it for metal tenor and soprano as well.
Pretty sure it’s the talent and practice/expertise in your case buddy!!! 🙏🚀
What I’ve found interesting in my own playing is that what I think of a ligature changes hugely depending on what mouthpiece I’m using it with. I love my BG Silver Duo on my JodyJazz HR*, but much prefer a BG Flex on my SYOS piece. Who knows!
That's funny Jay, I asked you yesterday about a ligature for my new Jody Jazz DV :) thanks great video btw. Sid.
You and several other people daily.lol...
I love my Jody jazz mouth piece and matching ligature on my alto sax 🎷 and use vandoren optimum on the tenor sax 🎷 I’ve had it ages and still looks as good as the day I purchased it thumbs on both ligatures , I also think it depends what sax model you use and mouthpiece plus reed , but I do agree purchase one that fits good on your mouthpiece that all what counts not the price 👍
As a player & dealer have tried most ligs, the Marc Jean is my fav now..more centered tone for me. HAve sold many of them & players can hear a difference.Silverstein if you reverse the metal plates, so they contact the reed works better I feel, but they stretch all to much .
Very interesting for a newbie - thanks
I think one of the key points which could be highlighted more is mainly how the ligature feels to play. Also, the transition between notes, legato, articulation. I know from the ligs I have tried all of them might produce a similar sound to the ear, possibly, but the playing experience and feel are totally different. For example, I use a metal Selmer lig on a original Guardala, and wow does that open up the register, fluidity and sound. Any other lig including the one Guardala shipped with his pieces, doesn't seem to have that rich vibrant tone, Guardala lig is slightly sweet, squished tone, articulations is different too.
Great video!
I’ve used many different ligatures over the years and I always thought that the idea of a different ligature making a difference in the sound was a hoax. They didn’t seem to make any difference to me, until I bought a Rovner Versa. It seemed to really make a difference to me. And I preferred that the material on the inside not be used to touch the reed. I also had a Vandoren that broke on me, didn’t last more than about a year or so. I will continue to use the Rovner.
You are absolutely right. On a well balanced reed the ligature is making no difference. On a reed that develops warps, the points a ligature holds the reed can make a huge difference. Ray Reed wrote a book about balanced reeds.
Just today I heard a professional reed player saying that they knew a college professor who forced all students (yes, impoverished college students) to buy a $350 ligature. For no reason, other than she liked it for herself.
Great presentation Jay. I thought the blue string lig was a little brighter than most. By the way, some classical clarinetists use string ligatures. When properly fitted, they sound great.
I wish they still made the Winslow Ligature. I've been playing on mine since 1993.
Just spent grocery money on my 2 favorite. Gonna do my own comparison test.
I feel most comfortable with a Rovner on every mouthpiece. Every reed is different and the Rovner bends to fit them all and puts equal pressure on the table of every reed. It eliminates a variable.
Rovners are always great and last forever.
I use Rovner mouthpieces exclusively too. I think they darken the sound a little bit, they hold the reed well too. Only nitpick is that taking off the ligature can be a bit difficult in that the ligature tends to stick to the mouthpiece sometimes.
I was once in a masterclass & recital with Claude Delangle. He just wrapped a piece of twine around his soprano mouthpiece and reed. I figure if that is good enough for him, than ligatures can't possibly be terribly important. If it works and it doesn't become loose when I move my mouthpiece, then its good to me. Been using a vandoren optimum for 16 years and just some rovners or cheapo 2 screws when the optimum doesn't quite fit my mouthpiece.
What matters is how far the ligature is pushed forward. This will affect the vibration of the reed in terms of how much of the entire reed vibrates.
thank you
Great video, thanks for making the effort. Here's what my ear hears:
Vandoeren Optimum - a little darker than the previous ligs
Theo Wanne - similar to Vandoren a little darker
Marc Jean - slightly better tone
Peter Jensen - takes a tiny bit of the edge off
BG Duo - brighter, perhaps even buzzier. Not necessary a better tone.
Rovner Van Gogh - darker, softens the brightness
To me, the ligature can impact tone, but the more important thing for me is reed response, does it impact how the reed plays?
Would be cool to know the price differences across these. IMHO, you can get a usable sound even with a rubber band... the main goal is that the ligature keeps the reed firmly attached to the mouthpiece.
Thanks for the great video!
@Alan Morgan What is your point actually? I listened to this video using AKG K240 studio headphones. Are you saying I can't tell the difference, or are you saying you hear far greater differences than what I noted above? Feel free to provide your mouthpiece by mouthpiece comparison notes like I did to let me know what you are hearing.
So I bought a Rovner Versa X and Jody Jazz power ring after breaking my stock ligature and I think they are both great.
Rovner Versa X is my favourite, performance wise, even though I'm not a fan of how it looks. Power ring looks grand. Versa X seems to make both low and high notes come out easier and top end gets this clear, edgy feel to it. I seem to be able to play quieter down low as well and it feels like the reed vibrates more freely.
For whatever this means, I was also able to more consistently be able to play above high D, so E and F, which I struggle with still, both on stock and power ring ligature.
nice physics lesson there - adding the mass seems to be damping the higher frequencies. you should experiment with a strong elastic band and some mass as a home made ligature
Pretty much confirmed what I already strongly believe ... should have spent the time watching this PRACTICING. Would have been fun to see you play one of those ligatures that look like a halo worn by neck-injury patients - with screws to the head from several directions. AND, maybe rubber bands, or cellophane tape used as ligatures. Just for fun. A ligature that doesn't get easily squashed or otherwise distorted from careless handling is one of MY priorities.
Have you tried Ishimori? I’ve never been much of an equipment guy. I’ve been using my main alto mouthpiece for 38 years, and I have been using the same basic gear on all my saxes for about 15 years now. I’m not into gadgets, and I didn’t think much about ligatures for the first half of my career. I used a Charles Bay for many years and was happy. A friend and former teacher introduced me to the original Ishimori ligatures, and I tried not to like it because I just didn’t want to spend the money. It was different though, and I loved it. I’ve been using it for fifteen years now. For me the ligature decision was a response thing. It just made it easier!
kinda depends on the reed. Depending on any given day, if I'm getting an unsatisfactory results with 1 set- up I'll try a different lig and sometimes it helps. I generally have 2 or 3 different ligs handy for alto, tenor & clarinet. I like the H, but I also like Luyben (for clar.), Vandoren M/O, certain Rovs (the new one with the slits). As long as long as the reed doesn't move around I'm happy- 1 screw, 2 screw, no screw, I don't care so much
Beyerdynamic ribbon mic. I use that one too. Underrated for saxophone!
just getting to know it, but really like it so far.
The BG duo seemed to cut through more and was the first ligature I noticed a difference in. I agree with the first Rovner having some meat to it, and the second was darker for sure.
thanks for listening and the feedback.
That being said, I can continue to use my yamaha 4c with the included ligature when learning to play the sax.
A criterion you might not have mentioned in the video that I look for is that the ligature does not dampen the reed too much that I lose a bit of response, which I do run into that problem with some ligatures. I do want it to hold the reed well, but not to the point of stifling it!
I’m a pretty big fan of the SYOS ligatures, I have one with my custom mouthpiece and paired with a syos mouthpiece they work pretty well, I’m not sure about any other mouthpieces tho.
thoughtful advise, thanks!
glad to hear it.
I was playing Meyer 7 mouthpiece with a simple ligature on alto sax and decided to try BG Super revelation ligature. It completely changed the sound of the mouthpiece and I was shocked that the ligature can change the sound.
Excellent work
Many thanks
Some years ago I was able to try some Rovner ligatures against one another on alto: Light, Dark, Mark III, and Eddie Daniels. The Eddie Daniels felt noticeably different than the others, and this is what I still play. One problem is that I have to take the ligature off if I want to adjust the mouthpiece.
The ideal ligatures are the ones which fit under my favorite mouthpiece caps. I used to use keyring rings but they cause MP cap fit problems. Single-screw cheapo ligs from the Great Auction Site are my current faves. Though for the less-common instruments like my C-Mels or baritone, I have to settle for what I can get.
definitely important to have a well fitted mouthpiece cap match. This is one of the important factors for me when choosing a ligature to use on gigs. Also that cap needs to fit in my pocket when playing. Some caps are way too big.
It’s a feeling thing , the sound will not or have a very subtle change. Maybe one day you will find one that you love and think that you play better wich is psychological. I feel that i play better with the jody jazz power ring because of the weight so i stick with it.
I did it. Having had nothing else than a fake Rovner and standard Otto Link binders I bought the Jody ring and the rovner verso X. Honestly, sound doesn’t change a bit but the notes seem to feel much more solid, bends go more controlled and even overtones much, much more solid. Never was able to blow overtones past the G (alto) but now easily. So, my take is if you’re a great sax player you wouldn’t need the heavy weight (literally) ligs but if you’re an almost great player both the Jody ring and the Rovner Verso X is at least worth the try!
hi ! regarding the Vandoren Optimum ligature as per the notice the vertical pressure plate is for a rich colorful sonority great resonance blowing and articulation ease / the horizontal one compact and centered sonority smooth and even sound extraordinary blowing ease / the one with the four points or dots the reed vibrates in total freedom producing a very flexible sound greater ease of expression
Marc Jeans all the way. Never thought ligs would have an impact on my sound, but i was wrong.