Programmed Drums vs Real Drums - The Ultimate Test!
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
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Can you really get label-quality productions using only programmed drums?
I decided to answer this question once and for all by re-recording and re-mixing a song using only MIDI drums and amp sim plugins. Hear the results for yourself!
Mentioned in this video
Toontrack Superior Drummer 3: imp.i114863.ne...
The best benefit of midi drums Is that you can make your own solo project easily! (If you're not a drummer...). To me this is great
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True that, since I started programming my own drums I did my solo record very easily, that’s a life saver.
Shit I'm a drummer and I still program atm. They're good for writing but I wouldn't recommend for a final product.
@@TheWitness369 I agree with you they are a good writing tool, for the end result I always get a drummer to play my e-drums set to get at least the feel of the drummer playing, very happy with the results so far I'm getting with SD3, but of course on certain genres having an acoustic kit to mic up and record is still the best bet.
Virtual instruments still remain the best way to write music and flash out ideas, I also program everything on my demos, it gets the musician's technique out of the way and I feel it challenges the musician to improve technically as well when it comes to actually recording the songs for the final product.
You hit it on the mark! I've done the same thing. Granted, I'm still learning and my productions need a lot of improvements, but being able to sit and write and record a whole song by yourself is priceless.
Damn I'll admit the programed drums do sound amazing, but those real drums just gave me a feeling that the samples couldn't
As a drummer who lives in an apartment, midi drums are a lifesaver. I can record my performance using an inexpensive electronic kit and transfer the feel and dynamics of my performance into a recording I can be proud of without having to go bankrupt.
Ditto! People send me stems, and I’ll lay down the drums this way. If they’re happy with the track, then depending on the purpose of the recording, I will go and re-record on real acoustic drums in the studio.
This
What drum vst do u use if u don’t mind me asking ? I have an electronic kit as well and was looking for compatible plugin to record with
what drum vst do you use to do this? i'm new to programmed drums, so just curious
@@backbeatben You can use BFD3, sounds much better than Superior Drums. BFD is on sale now at $49,99
Midi drums are in every genre of music and definitely here to stay.
Fact is real instruments are fun to play and record.
I stay in my own lane and do what makes me happy
Cheers from Michigan
Your average Joe just enjoying the music will never know the difference.
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@@DidierBampiliMusicProduction No...... You're just spamming...
there's no difference to know because musicans don't make 2 versions of the same song.
This is the case since well... a long time.
It's been years since producers and bands are using triggers and stuffs like that to correct mistakes and / or avoid re-doing a studio session... or just because, well... they can.
Anyone still discussing the value of virtual instruments or if you should use them (or not) in 2020 is more or less like saying that you have no idea how the music industry works in reality.
The way you produce music does not matter, the creativity, the result... this is what matter.
Also not everyone can afford a drummer :)
Also also : anyone saying that they can hear the difference (when you have a midi that has been played by a real drummer) with a comparison support is funny.
The real test would be to bounce 5 different tracks, 3 being VSTs, 2 being real drums with the same production. And asking a drummer which is which. I'm pretty sure that the good answers will be way lower than everyone thinks.
@@Henry0870 That's not what spamming means. You mean self-promoting
Back in the 90´s I used to program drums for a few demos, even using fruity loops people started to ask me who was the drummer, nowadays a lot of the drums is replaced with samples, there is a certain feel about the real drums, nothing can replace that, but most people can't tell the difference. And most people who claim the real drum is a lot better can't tell the difference in a blind test.
For me it comes down to using a grid. If you record to a click AND quantize you might as well only use triggers and samples. If you go through the effort of micing a kit the artist should consider recording W/O a click to maximize the qualities that only live drums provide.
LOL XD
Long time drummer here and I've been recording midi drums with a roland ekit, keeps the feel of my playing with the options and ease of the samples, and they sound super good. Great video
Great video, thanks for this. I would have recommended to do the following though: Play both mixes A/B and then let the people guess which one is which. We listen with our eyes and we have confirmation bias. If you wouldn’t have revealed beforehand, people would have wildly guessed on this.
Secondly, I feel there‘s always a huge misconception when it comes to VST like Superior Drummer 3. People still think those sounds are somewhat artificial, because it‘s always like „REAL drums vs. programmed drums“. Truth is though that Superior Drummer ARE real drums, recorded with real preamps, real mics into a real console and sampled by real human beings with real sticks. ;) The problem I witness when mixing a song for a band who uses VST: the drums often sound TOO good for the rest of the band and therefore the drums doesn‘t seem to fit.
As for the "we listen with our eyes": I don't entirely agree with that. I like the fact he said which recording was which (the acoustic drums VS the MIDI drums), as I am visually impaired. There are likely other visually impaired people who might watch this too, and they benefit from that dialog if you get what I mean.
Your second statement, I absolutely agree with, 100 percent. I just had a sort of mini argument with another commenter on another video about MIDI drums VS real drums, and this person was talking pretty much as you described, as if MIDI drums are still artificial sounding even if the drum sounds were sampled from real acoustic drums being played in a real studio and so on. The guy was clearly underestimating the quality of drum samples especially the ones we've seen in recent years. It was a bit stupid if you ask me. I guess Some people cannot be convinced MIDI drums can sound realistic in any way; they're stubborn, they are the way they are, they're gonna believe what they're gonna believe and deliberately choose to not see the actual truth of things. They're gullible. They think that what they believe or read is absolutely indisputable truth and no argument of any kind will change their mind. It's disgusting to me :/
Thats not the point. The point is what you like better. i definitely prefer the real drum version.
For someone who just makes music for a hobby and isn't a drummer, the GGD libraries are by far the best my "drums" have ever sounded, Ez Drummer is great for the libraries, but Modern and Massive and the P5 kit have been worth the investment for me, easily.
Generally only musicians and engineers will hear the difference of well programmed drums vs real drums. Average music listeners won't. They may "feel" the difference but not consciously know
Keyword there.... "Well" programmed drums.
@@luxuriousfir for sure, a lot of kids just slam everything to 127 and 100% quantization
Nice definition.
they will not in blind test
I've always found that to be a very poor argument. Honestly this is the only industry where people openly treat their customers/audience this way. "They won't know the difference so let's be lazy and feed them some garbage". Most won't consciously know about every detail of the mix either so should producers just speedrun that and release scratch mixes? I think you're really underestimating how a mix can change the experience for a listener even if they're not aware of it. Secondly, the programmed drum mix here sounded awful in comparison. Even a non musician would be able to tell that it's fake. There's absolutely no energy especially in the fast sections. And this is supposedly a demonstration of how good it is. Now there are pros to programmed drums. If you don't have access to real drums you can at least get started. In some genres, I think digital sounding, quantized drums can actually sound good. But it is NOT a substitute for real drums. I'd argue that the time and effort it would take to make samples sound as good as the real thing is better spent just recording real drums with a good drummer.
The programmed drums sounded good during the quieter parts, but during the heavy parts the real drums killed it.
7:49 - yep thats the big differentiator i think with MIDI where people say it doesn't sound realistic. Any real acoustic drummer will tell you that you don't hit the drum exactly the same every time. You're not a robot....so velocities will be different. One of the biggest things I spent time on with midi editing to make it sound human. I can always tell when it's midi with the rapid fire machine gun tom hits all exactly the same. Really detracts from the song even if it's quantized perfectly. That said, I do prefer the sound of the old drums. BUT if you were to blindfold me and play both, I don't think I'd be able to tell which is midi or not. Good job.
To me the thing that gives it away are ride and crash cymbals. Big washy crashes especially sound like a continuous sound when you ride on it in real life, and in midi it sounds like a bunch of completely discrete hits chained together. Also marching snare type parts don't get the right ratio of snare sizzle to top hit in programmed drum suites in my experience. I haven't used the latest gen superior drummer tho.
Finally someone with good approach. The more you know about the process of recording real instruments the better you can use digital tools which are at their peak right know. I'm 100% sure that right now it's finally possible to have realistic sounding drums that would fool even pro engineers out of your PC. And the best way to achieve that is to have a drummer and record his performance on eDrums in a MIDI format.
Real hi hat and cymbals with electronic pads for shells is probably the best compromise for easy recording and mixing. Pads work great but I've never found edrums that has a nice hihat to play and cymbals are also a bit meh if you try to do anything beyond basic crashing
I prefer old mix but cannot tell if the new mix is done with drum software or not. And anyway, both mixes are excellent!
Great video! I'm a huge fan of ITB music.
I deal 90% of the time with programmed drums and I agree, new mix sounds better, although the old one is good too. I never had the chance to track real drums in my studio so I started with programmed drums and I sticked with them. I do heavy music most of the times but I gotta say that midi drums work on other softer genres too. It's all about programming and it's not just about saving time or money; it gives you the chance to test and tweak the drum parts during the process of creating, recording AND mixing too, it's just a higher degree of freedom when it comes to produce songs. It sounds as good as a real one also because it's just samples of a real drum :) You just have more control on everything and once you figured out how to program the midi to make it sound musical, realistic, dynamic and groovy (depending on the genre), you got it!
Here's an example of a song that i produced entirely in the box, literally with 1 mic-preamp of an Apollo Twin.
ruclips.net/video/Uak_ArMkARI/видео.html
This song has Midi programmed drums (SD3 and additional samples) midi programmed bass (Eurobass II), programmed orchestra and synths, Amp sim guitars, mix and mastering 100% ITB. I think it works perfectly without sounding fake at all.
You got a new subscriber btw 🤘
Your new mix is actually more enjoyable because there seem to be a bit more dynamics and also less harsh high frequencies. Sounds fuckin great! A good way to learn how to program drums - how i did it anyway - is to learn how to program jungle drums, with edits and rolls and syncopated patterns
There are a lot of comments like "the average person won't know the difference". That is not the point. You should be producing music for the people that will notice it because if that is achieved then the average person will get a better experience. Aiming low gets you low.
The instruments sound good in both mixes, but you can hear the acoustic space and dynamics better in the real-instruments mix. The real-instrument mix doesn't necessarily sound better, but it sounds more rock n' roll.
I think they DO sound better
I think we do not have an issue with Kick, Snare and Toms. The problem is always on Cymbals (crash, hihat, etc). The micro dynamics from a live drummer are very noticeable to the expert ear. To the general public? nah. They can even listen to one dynamic and they'll be fine haha. But it's not about the public, it's about the artist's vision. Anyways... my favorite is usually a blend if budget allows.
The one with real drums definitely sounds better. The groove of his playing makes it more unique and just a more enjoyable and memorable listen. The programmed drums makes it a bit more cookie cutter sounding. Although both mixes sound fine just from a technical production standpoint.
I prefer the older mix.
It makes two of us
Digital always sounds like a demo.
As do I..but seeing as pro recordings now essentially use samples, the sound of the sampled midi kit, IS the sound of what people perceive as real drums now. I think more important is getting a real drummer to play the MIDI and then not time aligning or correcting it. If you can, record a real snare to mix in. It is ultimately the snare that always gives it away.
@@Polentaccio Agreed. But honestly the cymbals usually give it away for me.
The joy comes from imperfection. There's a reason people don't like autotune.
:)
I do prefer the older mix, but I'm sure you can get a similar sound with midis
wow those velocities for the drum midi are almost totally maxed out, I was always taught to save 120-127 for the hardest hitting section and back off for the rest
I think you're absolutely right that you can create realistic, pro qaulity mixes being fully in the box with program drums and amp sims, as you demonstrated here but your original mix definitely sounds better. The original mix has a weight/thickness to it, where's the new mix sounds hollow in comparison.
4:14 - Real drums and guitar amps
4:30 - programmed drums and guitar amps
Signed up immediately!
So did I 😁
The new one (midi drums/amp sims) sounds great, but the the old one (real drums/real amps) offers more clarity and fullness. Seems like it hits me more in the face! Both sound awesome either way. Nice work!
I felt like the snare in the new one had much more compression or less dynamic range in general than the original song.
The new one is a lot wider mix overall with vocals and bass filling center. I think the original mix can feel more intimate because it's not so wide and the real kit sounds like this sort of one unified instrument, instead of individual drums popping up allover the mix. The original mix has that old school feel of a band playing the song together in one space
I understand that it's a little different for something like metal, but more generically the question of whether you can use programmed drums makes me laugh, when something like 80% of the biggest hits of the 80s used a Linn Drum, and while musicians can hear the difference, something like 80% of the public had no idea.
Tbh, the old one sounds bigger, fatter. But the new one sounds just as good, better even. But I don't think it has that same oomph IMO.
Because he brickwalled the hell out of his old one. Just look at the wave form. There is more distortion and compression in it though as a result. That's why he says the newer one sounds cleaner.
@@whiskerbiscuit6674 I heard a better top end on cymbals and guitars from the old one, just sounded a little more "live", and that matters.
Old one sounds very professional and fatter..new one not too heavy and sound like it has an imager on the bus
Nice comparison!
8:15 There is almost no velocity difference in your programming. That's also very obvious to hear, especially in the quiet part. To me, it's the most significant difference.
(The problem with some SD3-patches is that the snare dips too far at a specific velocity crossing, so it's not easy to do right.)
it's also almost completely maxed out to 127, I've always been taught that 120-127 should be reserved for teh hardest hitting section and to back off for the rest of the track
TLDR: Its definitely getting much better!
I grew up with programmed drums. The only one in my area into similar kind of music I HAD to do everything on my own.
As I've got more into production and recorded real drums the main difference I find are the cymbals. Cymbals ring, FOREVER. In a blind test I can't always tell the difference but with the software the cymbals always tail off pretty quickly. Sometimes a couple seconds, sometimes a little longer, but when you hit a ride cymbal, for example, it just rings and rings and rings forever. It isn't always super audible but there is just this 'air' that lingers behind the rest of the beat. The amount of RAM / processing it would take to playback loads of these 'forever' cymbals probably puts that kind of software beyond the means of many at the moment.
Its hard to explain, but I'm sure you know what I mean?
That said, the actual drums / shells sound just as good if not better in many instances.
It is also VERY genre dependant. It works in many genres but when it comes to things like jazz (the brush libraries never sound anywhere as near good as the stick libraries) or blues or anything requiring that 'live vibe' (whatever that is) it doesn't quite compare yet.
Sorry for the long boring post. Thanks for always breaking the wall and not hiding behind typical production metaphors.
Show this video to Glenn Fricker :) lol Really great video! and super awesome interview with Bobby Torres, now I'm about to rob the bank and buy your course from Pro Mix Academy :)
Glenn Fricker's passion for only using actual drums totally alienates people who literally cannot afford to record actual drums or are learning. The man's arrogance pushed me away from his videos.
I still like the old mix/production better! Has more balls to it. (without being to technical about it ;)
If he brickwalled the new mix like he did the old mix it'd sound the same.
Your guitar tones were nailed new vs old, but overall I prefer just about everything about the old mix. The new mix with the drum samples is a little clearer with greater dynamic range, which is good but for I tend to prefer the sound of a master that is pushed a little harder. I prefer the tightness of the old drum sound and also the low mid bump on the bass on the old mix. That said, SD3 is an absolutely amazing tool and has changed the way I think about sampled drums forever. I have done plenty of tracks with it that have tricked a few seasoned pros. You are completely right on with your advice to render the midi down to clean audio to end up with tracks that sound like a raw recording. In addition to the benefits of proper humanization, being able to turn the mic bleed on the individual drum tracks and recreate all of the problems of a real kit is what makes it sound so real (like having the ride cymbal in the kick drum mic, or too much floor tom bleeding through into the hi-hat). Having that level of bleed forces you to mix like you are trying to minimize the bleed just as you would with a real kit, so then everything about the mix takes on the vibe of a real mix.
Logic has an incredible MIDI humanize function. Nolly uses it when he programs drums and it sounds REALLY good! One thing no one ever gets is that a real drummer hits slightly off center so the snare will have slightlydifferent pitches from hit to hit. Programmed drums, even snare samples NEVER do this, so the pitch of the snare is always exactly the same, and its always an immediate dead giveaway.
I mean TesseracT have done 3 of their very successful albums using programmed drums, so I guess you CAN produce professional label ready mixes with those.
I usually play and record drums on an e-drum kit or at the very least real drums with triggers and map it out on the DAW. I edit and move MIDI notes around if I miss something out. VST plugins like Superior Drummer 3, EZDrummer 2 and Steven Slate drums can deliver realistic drum samples. Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It's convenient and hassle-free. You can record from inside your bedroom using a pair of headsets and your e-drum kit.
I love videos like this. It just goes to show that having a rigid mindset doesn't help anyone. Television and advertising music has been using primarily midi for all their music for years now. My main music work is in things like movie trailers, and advertising campains. Once you understand more of the composition side of music you find that midi is extremely powerful and useful, But just like a real instrument, each midi instrument has it's own strengths weaknesses and boundaries. Treating a virtual instrument like it's own instrument is really the key to making really cool music from it. I'm glad to see an open minded viewpoint on this topic!
I've spent thousands on drum sample libraries.. and love them for their utility and as i'm not a drummer, they are amazing for writing.. AND they're getting better and more real sounding every year... but a real kit still sounds miles better imo. I can tell instantly unfortunately... It's all in the Snare and how the whole kit plays together. Can't always pin it down.. but it's there. Maybe some day soon though.
I use programmed drums all the time. I spend quite a bit of time modifying the velocity of each note and shifting the timing slightly to make it sound less robotic. Then I remove all the EQ and compression built in to the VST and export the tracks individually, and work with those dry audio tracks to mix them like recorded drums like you mentioned. Now, my mixing skills aren't the best, but it's much better working this way than to just mix with the MIDI drums playing from a single VST because you can work with EQs and compressors you're familiar with, not these specialized ones that are only ever used with the VST.
Actually studying real drums from music you like is so important to understand how to write drum parts and learning the articulations that make them sound human.
I feel like using drum samples with a lot of velocity layers and using them wisely is such a key element a lot of people aren’t utilizing. I hear so many songs from guys using drum samples where drum fills are all 127. The biggest game changer with drum samples is being a drummer though. Being able to play drums will allow you to make your drum parts sound authentic.
yes, I think when programming MIDI drums you should do it with the mindset of an actual drummer (weather or not you play drums yourself). But if you want to program your MIDI drum parts by actually playing them in on an instrument like how an actual drummer would record his or her part in the studio, get a MIDI controller... seriously. MIDI controllers, like keyboards or electronic drums, are meant to be played like real instruments. You are effectively recording a live performance at that point, but with the added advantage of being able to edit individual notes and the spaces between them for timing and velocity corrections, as apposed to having to annoyingly re-record parts like you would with an audio recording. It's the difference between recording MIDI VS recording audio.
I also agree about the velocity layer thing you mentioned. I like hearing "multisampled" drums, where a lower velocity level will actually trigger a sample of a drum being hit at a softer level (which would make a different sound than a harder hit), and a higher velocity level would trigger a sample of a drum being hit harder (which would make a different sound than if the drum was hit softer). In other words, what some people might not always notice is that with acoustic drums, hitting them softer or harder doesn't merely change the "volume", but it also changes the "tonality" if you no what I mean. Let's say you have a sample of a snare drum being hit rather hard. That's the only sample you have. Now try triggering that sample at different hardness levels on your MIDI controller and notice how it merely changes the volume of that sample; you should notice that the actual sound of the snare drum doesn't have much variation. It's "mechanical" or rather monotone sounding. But if you have multiple samples of that same snare drum being hit at different levels of hardness and softness and you trigger those samples with different velocity levels, it starts to sound much more interesting.
@@justinnaramor6050 Great points!
@@tylerbrittan593 Thanks. I think people should understand this stuff before claiming that sampled drums sound "unrealistic". They only sound "unrealistic" or "fake" if you just have a single sample (like the snare drum example I mentioned) being triggered at different volumes. I heard someone try to do a snare drum roll with a sample setup like that and it sounded a bit like a machine gun (in fact, it's actually been referred to as the "machine gun effect"). But then the person played the same snare drum roll with a multisampled snare drum, and wow, I could really hear the difference; much more realistic sounding. If I hadn't known that MIDI was being used I would've thought there was a real drummer playing a real snare drum..
So all these folks claiming sampled drums sound unrealistic can just cut out that bullshit :)))))))))))))))))
0:36 You can immediately tell the drums are programmed, a easy way to tell is to focus on the ADSR of cymbals. On consecutive hits, be it on hats, ride bells, or just riding a crash/stack/china, attack transients are diminished on real cymbals, which is not the case on programmed ones (you can sort of emulate this in SD3 but it still can't compete with real drums).
That being said, I would argue that using programmed drums for formal releases in certain genres (thrash, metalcore, djent etc) are acceptable, since 1. you'll end up editing the audio regions and using samples to reinforce the drum recordings anyway, and 2. it's really hard to track real drums (mics, preamps, interfaces, room, all that hardware) and have the kit played by a drummer who knows all the subtleties of playing in a studio.
For other genres like jazz, indie, folk, fusion - no, using programmed drums will make the mix sound artificial, robotic and lifeless, and is often a detriment than enhancement.
This. The cymbals gave it away. And until there is a way to emulate a wobbeling cymbal which you slightly different every time, they will always sound artificial.
You said everything
Lol did you feel smart typing all that? You just wanted to hear yourself talk huh? Anyone knows all that stuff you just said, it's pretty basic stuff, like drum programming 101 stuff I'd say.
@@GreatBurningNullifier Lol did you feel smart typing all that? You just wanted to hear yourself talk huh? Everybody think you're an ass hat, it's pretty basic stuff, like internet loser 101 stuff I'd say.
@@GreatBurningNullifier Congrats! You got me! Want a medal?
Man, thank you for making this video! My background with real drums is nearly identical and I’ve been considering whether the time/effort to learn MIDI is really worth it. Subscribed!
Cool to learn you were in Kingdoms! Daughters of Atlas is one of my favorite underground albums
i would definitely be interested in the digital production blueprint course. i have a hobby studio ( err.. spare bedroom lol ) and i have zero interest in making albums for other people. I use SD3 and use my recording setup are a creative outlet. I write a lot on guitar and got toontrack drums and a DAW as a way to complete those songs. I think you should consider releasing it.
I can Copy/paste your words my friend. I have fun doing my own stuff, as I guess many people searching for this kind of content.
Would like to have the digital production blueprint, for doing my own music and learning Jordan’s process to this.
I would buy right away if Jordan was selling this, specially using the new Black Salt Audio (Escalator, Low Ctrl, Oxygen and Clipper), which I own all of them!
Consider releasing it Jordan, I’m pretty sure there are lots of people out there, looking for this exact course!
Cheers!!
When I'm using programmed drums, I'll deliberately mix lots of snare and stuff into the OH mics and stuff (Getgood drums lets you do that) so it feels more real and isn't so precise. I don't know it feels weird, if everything is too separated. I also use lots of distortion to make it sound less perfect as well.
This, lots of bleed into OH and room mics made me like programmed drums.
I use Ezdrummer 2 and am only partially satisfied with results so far. The preset patterns and fills are good but there isn't enough variety to keep it really interesting. Also not being a drummer makes it very challenging to put together a convincing track that sounds really natural. I am considering either upgrading to Superior Drummer with the hope of having more detailed control and more preset patterns or getting a real drummer to replace what I have so far. In my view the original track with real drums sounds better than the Midi drums in this example.
Man, this video convince me to move from programmed drum to real drum
Damn they sound really good. Also, your band was dope. Had an Underoath vibe. What was the name of the band and this song?
It seems it's: Kingdoms - Pyramids
I found that using anyone of the "clean kits" in Superior Drummer 3 (just add a few extra microphones like "Mid amb" and "rear width", and route them multiout to your DAW, then add a ton of tape saturation and it will give you great sounding drums. Then I filter, eq, gate, limit and fader balance in my DAW mixconsole (i use Cubase 12 pro) and it has the perfect channelstrip for this, so no need for plugins.
Actually, and specially in Metal, even real drums sound programmed nowadays...
with the exception of bands like Baroness, Mastodon, and the like...
I gotta say, BTW, that programming drums and achieving a great deal of realism takes loaaaads of time!
If it grooves, it grooves!
Real instruments sounds more warm while the digital sounds colder
Some of my favourite metal albums have programmed drums - October Rust, Catch Thirty Thee, The industrialist. I don't give a shit because it sounds good. Only hipsters and gatekeepers care about how it's made and not the end result.
Could someone please tell me what's the band at 4:30 ?
I think it works here because the mix is "modern" with a ton of edits, amp sims and so on, which means, the way you approach it is already highly "computerized". It also works because the composition is pretty complex and always changing, so you tend to not focus on individual elements of the drum for too long. And finally because from what I could gather from your mixes, you tend to process your drums a lot (not a dig at all! I really enjoy your work, specially with Silverstein), so most of the drums on your mixes already have that "better than real" sound that is associated with drum samples.
That being said, I think the shells sound indistinguishable from the real thing, but the cymbals still sound a tad unnatural.
I just heard the comparison and holly crap! The old mix has so much more body and depth. The new mix sounds fine, but it has a fizziness in the high mids that is a tad annoying in comparison with the old one.
The new mix is also super wide which makes it feel super modern but also hollow
I'm going to have to disagree. I immediately said to myself "holy shit, so much better" as soon as I heard the real deal. Granted, I'm a drummer with 20+ years' experience so my ears are pretty much trained to notice that sort of thing.
You can tell drums are programmed, but I rather listen to the new version it sounds much more better overall, the old version's sound just screams THIS IS A DEMO!
@@carlosfuentes4026 a more polished and detalied "demo" that would be.
I have Music Audio content too. Check me out
Ok Boomer
Really good content and very well presented info here, many thanks! Definitive subscription! I just listened through my studio monitors and to me the end result of the real drums sound a bit brighter and punchier, basically just a bit 'nicer', but the programmed drums with SD3 sound fricking amazing too, very tastefully programed btw! So I totally agree, satisfactory results can be achieved with well programmed virtual drums, either SD3 or any of the equivalents out there... and these are amazing tools for musicians/producers in general to get ideas recorded with 'releasable album quality' straight out of the box! Also... of course the main thing is always the musical ideas and originality of the artists... Anyway, many thanks again!
I record out of my basement and have a real drummer send me drums he plays on a e-kit that turns his parts into midi. Gives them a real feel. I then use drum plugs and samples to make it sound like the kit I want, bounce it down and mix it. Good hybrid solution for me!
Looks like Jordan is using Waves GTR for those guitars... How do you make THAT one sound so good?
The all digital ITB mix sounds really good. There is more clarity, but,...there's something about the real drums and guitars mix regarding overall warmth and fullness that I slightly like better. Great vid. I would love it if you could do a tutorial vid on how you print your Superior Drummer midi down to individual audio tracks.
I think the new mix is better for sure, but I agree - if given the choice I’d always rather do real drums!
That kingdoms e.p. is one of my favorite of all time!
Just found the channel thank God. This is my dream.
Just now finding your channel. You seem like you have some very informative stuff
You've done a very, very good job... but even if there might have been no ambient room recording or live tracks recorded with a bit of natural room bleed done in your original, I don't know, maybe it could have all been close mic-ed and each tracked done separately...either way, somehow the first one has a depth and size to it...almost as if it has space the depth of field that natural ambiance creates...that place or dimension we can close our eyes and almost spiritually escape to... ..whereas the second sounds more flat across the speakers, less depth of field, much smaller, more two dimensional and less open sounding. I know one can add room ambiance with fx but it never seems quite the same. I'm retired after working 47 years, my sole, lifetime career, in studio production and towards the end i'd gotten to the point I didn't care to record anything...except maybe a vocal track, with mic within 4' of whatever instrument of sound being recorded. I think working with midi from about 1983 until ITB / plugins somehow gave my a real love and appreciation for live tracking in a room as well as using analog hardware rather than plugins.
May just be a bit of dementia taking hold in older age but I perceive the spirit...or the essence of music... is being restricted... and the life of the actual living spirit of music itself, is being choked out of it somehow in the digital realm. Everyone may laugh but I do not feel edified or spiritually fed in the way some music is able to bring to our lives... My two cents withstanding, you've done an excellent job in both.
I think that because of the fact that metal is a very technical kind of music, when even real drums sounds very mechanical and technical and proccesed in a very compressed and hard way, there's might almost be no difference between real drums and midi drums. But- i actually really liked the real version, not necessarily because of the sound, but because of the feel.
Another solution is recording real drums and use triggers, good compromise to my opinion
Good vid man. As always, it depends on a user's knowledge as well as the tech itself to make a great mix regardless of what method of drum sound is utilized.
Peace
The real drums sound a little more full in the parts with the clean guitar, but both sound great. I don’t think I would have known which was which in the heavier parts.
Man I love your videos thank you
Real drums for me. What about drummer performance, nuances, feel, playing in the pocket or slightly behind..It’s not just about the sounds you know and I do have a flagship Roland drums with SD3. If I had the choice, real drums all the time.
Jordan, the new one does sound better, but why, really? And actually, so what? I believe the technology used is not the only difference here - the mix itself is completely different - old one is slammed, dirty, it has more low end, it hardly has reverb, plays (or feels?) louder even though you level-matched. The new one has an almost epic reverb which drowns the song, and I don't care if the drums are clearer. The old one feels better to me, it feels closer, dirtier, more energized, interesting (the upfront, distressing dryness) and simply touches me a ton more. Even though it may feel a tiny, tiny bit claustrophobic and the cymbals are ugly. But yeah, the "sound" is worse. The new one sounds generic-metal to me. My point is, we can't draw conclusions other than the clarity, tidiness and "expensiveness" of sampled drums extremely hard to achieve in real drum recordings. If the band wants programmed - give them programmed, it's their music and if they want clarity, there they go. You're there just to make sure they know what they are losing. Cheers!
Agree, the snare reverb on the new one kind of bums me out. I think that's partly a mixing choice though. Seems like it should be possible to make programmed drums less clear & shiny, maybe with some less ideal room IR.
@@ThatcherUlrich Exactly - a mixing choice. This is what I care about. The difference between how these mixes FEEL is so profound I just don't care which one has programmed whatever, because it is not what is making the real difference here between these mixes.
Your old mix is still much better, the energy and sonics cant compete with the MIDI, the new mix is not terrible by any means but it cant compare in my opinion.
If he brick walled the new one like the old one you wouldn't be able to tell.
@@whiskerbiscuit6674 What does brick walled mean?
@@stevedendera If you look at the wave form of his mixes side by side in the video the old mix wave form is almost a solid dark block throughout. What it means it that in order to make the mix louder he pushed the limiter really hard. What the limiter does is is it takes the quietest volumes of the songs and makes them louder. The problem you get with that though is the high volumed signals and frequencies will start to distort. So the trap people fall into is by doing it you are making the drums louder and punchier yes, but you are distorting the top end of your mix. That's why he said his new mix is cleaner because he doesn't have clipping across the track. And when people say the track is more dynamic, it means that there are parts that aren't as loud. There is more volume dynamic. So some people hear the quieter new mix and think it's worse because it's quieter and not as "punchy" but sonically it's better because the track isn't being distorted at the upper end. It's cleaner.
Compression and limiting are similar but slightly different. But most people don't know how it affects the sound and mix and that's why they think the old drum sound better because the limiter is making them louder. People mistake more volume for better sound.
Example of an over limited album is Chili Peppers californication. That album distort all over. It's a terrible mix and there's a rumour that Rubin intentionally did it because he didn't like it and the label wanted him to do it, so he intentionally did it poorly apparently.
@@whiskerbiscuit6674 wow, thanks for that comprehensive explanation. I can totally hear what you mean now. I suppose its a mix of down to preference and like you say falling into the trap of something just sounding loudering "appearing" to sound better.
Thanks for the cool reply though 🙂
In my opinion, the older one is much better. It sounds more natural and full. The new one sounds so much more processed, less dynamic, and to me it is just missing something in comparison to the old one. It may be a bit hard to tell the difference between samples and real drums, but I still think something is always missing from (especially fully) digital drums. There have been a few songs that, as I was training my ears, I always thought sounded like they were missing something on better gear. As I listen to them now, it’s obvious that it’s at least partially because of drum samples.
Dam you beat me to it I'm just about to put some videos up on how I mix midi drums, great comparison thanks man also signed up
From the list of producers, composers having those issues, I myself do prefer the live Human touch to say. I am a guitarist and am now looking into getting a Electronic drum Kit. So that will take care of the authentic feel. My current issue is for the best bang for my buck which digital drum machine for my DAW will be best? So I am searching and landed on your video here. Thanx for the experience advice you gave!
doing it with electronic drums to midi and not really editing much and let me tell you, its fricking awesome, get a great drummer that's the only advice
Using your own snare and kick samples defeats the purpose of using Superior Drummer 3.0 now, doesn't it?
I use Steven Slate Drums 4 and now 5 and it works for me pretty well for my band
Im drummer and keyboardist, Since I dont own a drum kit I do all my drum parts with Superior Drummer 2. When ppl approach me to record a song or something they always ask who played the drums and how I recorded it. They never know is programmed drums. Something I do really different from other ppl is I dont quantize the track. Just good timing you know like a real drummer would do. Only fix in editing the obvious parts that sounds really out of timing. I used to quantize the drums years ago but stop and since thats when ppl started thinking it was a real drummer . I remember when EZ drummer came out a lot of ppl was saying is cheating LOL . If you think about it the convenience you get is that someone already recorded a very well tuned drum kit and passed it to you. The only difference is now you have the option of lets say .."make the drum parts be as you really imagine in your head." Theres no AI drumming for you. Would you rather have a very well recording of a very expensive Ludwig kit thru a API , SSL or Neve console or some mediocre bad tuning old skins Tama RockStar kit thru a Mackie console? Cuz lets face it...thats what some ppl give us to mix sometimes 😂 and since I really not sure where it was recorded and all he process .....im pretty good with SD🤷🏻
Being a drummer myself I always recognize the difference specially on cymbals and snare, they just sound not real, the decay/dynamics on the performance specifically on those two it's just not there. But yeah immediately know the difference. But I'm pretty sure non drummers/musicians which is basically the audience wouldn't know the difference.
Clearly you don't know what superior drummer is. It's real drums. So the decay is there because it's a real drum cymbal. Someone actually hit the cymbal and you are using the sound of that recorded cymbal. They aren't synthesized drums. Every sound is an actual drum hit. And an actual cymbal hit.
@@whiskerbiscuit6674 I run SD3 also have ssd5 for my ekit. Even with a digital pad that has positional sensing, stick detection sensor, not hot spots...there is a difference in sound. But from a money(studio)/noise perspective there is a lot of advantages to using a pro ekit with a vst.
@@puertoricodrum Ok buddy. You have the golden ears. You can tell when a recorded drum hit is copy and pasted or not. Good job. It's literally impossible but you some how know. Congrats.
@@whiskerbiscuit6674 The video's about programmed drums and real drums. I am talking about hearing a drummer's dynamics in sound (good or bad) which makes it human vs programmed drums with velocity changes in the whole performance...never talked about hearing differences on hits or copy/paste hits.
@@puertoricodrum You talked about decay. But as a life long drummer, I still call BS on your dynamics thing. They both sound fake to me as they are both way over processed. And in general the old mix is way over limited so if you do think the old recording is better you have a terrible ear. They other thing is you've probably heard thousands of recording where you legitimately didn't know they were programmed. Most bands don't say they were and just say the drummer played on the album. But it's cheaper so they do it. You can tell the bad ones. But honestly this guy did a good job and if he had did this a blind test you wouldn't have been able to tell.
You obviously did a great job on the programmed, but during the clean section it didn’t even sound like the same part. I know there’s articulation on these drum plugins, but you would have to sit there for years like Steven hawking doing calculus just to create the real articulation
What band/song is it that is playing?
hey jordan! amazing video as usual! is this kingdom? ( i think thats the band ?) so damn cool love this type of chaotic hardcore
I use programming drums as a writing tool. If may take longer but I like the creative flexibility
I was doing mixes in 2007 using Superior Drummer, and I still sometimes use that same library to this day. I think your choice of drum software was your problem.
Superior Drummer (and DFH before it) are sampled as a kit in a room with all the bleed you want. Unprocessed samples. Basically, a real kit with the same mixing workflow as you would have with real drums. Not a bunch of processed samples.
My opinion is that nowadays midi drums are closer to real drums in big albums, but for the wrong reason. I believe most real drums are so overprocessed that they already sound like midi. Just listen to whatever Nuclear Blast is releasing or anything done by Jens Bogren, everything sounds the same. For example, the last Michael Romeo albums, they all sound absolutely midi and programmed, but it's a real drummer. But then go and listen to the album "V" by Symphony X, that's a lovely real metal drum sound.
The overheads sound so good on real drum recordings, the drums make your head bob - not so with programmed drums. That's the reason I don't like most of the new metal bands - digital sounds & over-editing.
As far back as 2000, I have used the technique of midi drums and recording real cymbals with a pretty good result. Now you can get pretty good sounding midi cymbals, but back in the day (in my opinion) the cymbals were always a dead giveaway that midi was being used.
Both mixes sound awesome. Yes the program mix had maybe more clarity. But the first mix sounded heavier to me.
I mean MIDI drums sound, especially ones from those big-name ones like Toontrack, are literally made FROM recording real drummers playing real kits. And they literally record several different versions of the same velocity value for all 127 values for all the drums/cymbals. So, really, , literally from a definition standpoint, there honestly is no difference between *professionally* programmed drums and real drums
I think a fairer comparison would have been to master the new mix. Having been mastered really makes the old one pop more so it gives it a perceived quality that has nothing to do with the recording technique... Attempting to ignore that factor, the actual mix side by side is basically identical. Either works just fine.
How do I move drums from midi to actual audio like you said?
I think the overall sound of the old mix is better as it sounds much more “glued together”
If the music is written well, sure you can use programmed drums
Agreed. All that matter is if the songs are good and executed well.
I have Music Audio content too. Check me out
I would like to also add that a better idea is to not program drums from start and use the midi grooves from Superior that have been played by real drummers... find the closest one that what you want and edit the rhythm. That way you get real velocities in there.
I'm sure myself and almost everybody else can be fooled these days when programed drums does sound really great! But side-to-side like that...ehhh.. Maaaan I think the old mix is sooo much better, sorry. I agree that the new mix is "better" in the way that's it's more transient, clearer (how you wanna define that), but like ALL the things that you say most people struggle with when it comes to programing drums is kinda there even if you did a great job with your new mix. Again, I surely could have been fooled if you had not played the old version side-to-side with the new. So, great job, great mix...and YES you can make records this way but it's like saying you can get to the store on a tricycle or a car. Both will take you there but if one could choose =)
Ha, the low end on SD or whatever your using has a better tighter low end on those kicks then the mic mix, imho
Less mush below 70hz
I like the snare and kick from Superior Drummer, but the cymbals kinda sounds better in the old mix imo.
you can even go with real overheads & room and replace close mics. I’ve had good results with that too. country AND western 🤩👍🏼