"The Day I Cheated Death" - Scuba Instructor Reaction
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- Опубликовано: 1 май 2021
- The Day I Cheated Death (Scuba Dive Incident at Moose Mountain Quarry, Ontario)
Posted June 2018, • The Day I Cheated DEAT... , Water Temp 41F
Summary:
An uncertified diver posted this event back in June 2018, which occurred at Moose Mountain Quarry, Ontario. It’s hard to tell exactly what’s going on from the video alone, but the video description and comments by the OP since they are both illuminating and confusing at the same time. The OP is a certified diver now. I’m not sure if the panic was caused by N2/CO2 narcosis, over-breathing the reg, or? I’d be happy to hear some observations and opinions. Original video description and key comments by OP included below.
Video Description from the Original Video Poster:
“I'm an idiot, this was my 2nd ever dive (and) WITHOUT certification, I had been breathing incorrectly in some dumb attempt to conserve on air and panicked at 100ft when I was unable to suck in air from my reg which caused me to shallow hyperventilate, so because I couldn't breathe and my partner was already ascending above me. I made an emergency ascent (not even correctly) to the surface, causing my lungs to expand and throw up basically nitrogen upon surfacing. Later Symptoms included a minor headache, Dizziness, Muscle cramps, Chest pain and Ringing in the ears.
Two weeks after this incident. There was another experienced diver who died at the same location in 60 feet of water as he experienced something similar to me.
Before you get too eager and decide to be a condescending ass hat in the comment section. I have been certified and am currently an advanced diver with a solid number of dives under my belt including deep dives. I understand what happened during this dive, opposed to my definition in video which was again still before I had any training, so not need to attempt to give me some personal explanation of what I should have done or what happened. You weren't there that day.”
9 Months ago comment by OP:
“You need to breathe to live...pretty simple. If I didn't surface I would have drown. Everything about that dive was bad news, I was lucky to survive, you weren't there and literally don't know any of the details about that dive. I was overweighted, over exerted myself and consumed way too much energy while taking shallow breaths the entire dive in some stupid attempt to save on my air consumption. I was uncertified and completely inexperienced and had no business being in the water at all, not even 10 feet. At 100ft I was unable to inhale any breath properly, I was desperately trying to suck for air because I was out of breath from trying to ascend while being negatively buoyant and my breathing pattern went into a state of total panic in which I couldn't control it in the slightest and couldn't take a breath. There is no safety stop when you are an untrained diver and are having a panic attack under water. Panic is totally not my character at all in the slightest, but it happened to me that day in the water. It took me about 45 second to surface in which I had no breath, I could have passed out before I even fully ascended. It was a scary situation that won't happen again because I am now experienced and I would never do what I did on that dive again. You weren't in the water that day, so any condensing keyboard warrior crap you keep it to yourself. You have no idea. There were several factors that lead to that incident. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish questioning this event that happened 2 years ago and attempting to call me out as if I am completely unable to dive properly today in any capacity.”
11 months ago comment by OP:
“Wasn't narced that dive, I couldn't suck in air for whatever reason at depth. The 130 ft dive is strict because the shop I dove with didn't give me the pony I reserved, and it felt safer diving with a group at 130 rather than the stranger I was paired with at 100ft. Also don't only have 30 dives lol.”
1 Year ago comment by OP:
“Oh Definitely, this was 100% ignorance on my part due to lack of fear and understanding of Scuba. Got Certified shortly after this, and now am an Advanced diver. I don't believe it was narcosis that got me in trouble, just overworked myself and couldn't suck in enough air and didn't know how to respond, which lead to panic, which is completely out of character for me. I had a bit of fear going back to 100ft after this at first because it was in the back of my mind, but its been smooth sailing since.”
2 Years ago comment by OP:
“Yeah, this was me bring an idiot diving without certification on basically my 2nd dive ever, no training or experience. It's how people die. I have my certification and 30 dives under my belt now. Funny thing though, they don't teach about the co2 buildup in the open water course.”
#scubadiving #diveaccident #diveincident #scubadiverpanic
Safe diving!
Jim
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This one is really mysterious…input needed.
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"I had CO2 buildup in my lungs and no longer breather properly to inhale proper oxygen"
This is nonsense. The fact the person wrote the text even after receiving proper training makes me quite worried.
Sadly agreed, Petr…
I have had many panic attacks in my life and have gone to therapy to treat them. Panic attacks can express themselves a bit differently, but what I experience is a slow creeping sensation of not being able to breathe, or the feeling of not being able to put enough oxygen in the lungs no matter how much I breathe, which then leads to full panic. I don't mean to discredit this guy, but it really sounds like he just had a panic attack which caused him to surface too quickly.
Panic attacks are nothing to scoff about and should be taken seriously.
Totally agreed, Martin. Thank you for adding your perspective here.
I'm way late to the party here! I'll attempt clear up what I can here in order of what I'm watching. Other diver was an advanced diver (cop) who died in 30ft, defintely didn't have the same experience as me it was, likely a panic/heart attack. "My throw up of nitrogen" when I surfaced, I had an abundance of gas (air) expelling from my lungs out my mouth, as if i drank a bunch of soda and was uncontrollingly burping on long burp, no idea, it was one of the weirdest experiences ever, I just figured I would pass out when I surfaced so I inflated my bcd as I surfaced. When we were at 100ft, we were both naive and felt good outside of some minor effects from the pressure I feel in my chest. My panic happened as I was ascending and looking up, I was swimming for a about 5 seconds and thought I was ascending, and then my feet hit the bottom, I believed this happened twice, so I started to kick harder to ascend, this is how I figured I was overweighted, but my bouyancy was suspect throughout the entire dive I imagine too, at that time I didn't realize how much extra air I had to put into my bcd at that depth. I did surface and go back down to 20ft (idiot) thinking that maybe my body could have been holding nitrogen still or something, again, I didn't know so I figured it was a good idea, which is obviously was defintely not. Neither of us had computers at this point. Defintely not supposed get tank fills in Canada without cert, but I've heard of people going to Fire Stations for fills. @11:45 I think you interpret this correctly, we were only at 100ft for less than 3 minutes, So I don't believe I was narced here. I am a pretty calm person under stress, this was my one off situation that really humbled me because I really didn't think there was an ounce of panic in my personality. The footage I had of the time of the incident was just green water nothing to look at camera wise, there was really no point of reference for anything outside of a 40ft rock wall that wasn't visible and the 100ft sign, so I just left that out in my video edit. My buddy was well above me and ahead of me in the ascend by 15-20 ft, @ 100ft I swam passed him when I ascended, and he joined me at the surface, he defintely cut his safety stop short, but he wasn't too far behind when I surfaced which was super sketch on his part. His original certification was questionable and he actually went back to get his open water and we eventually did our advanced course together, but he never finished it because he doesn't feel comfortable underwater because he had his own panic attack at this same location aroudn 70ft when we were going to decend right back to this exact same spot. He's willing to dive, but will never do anything beyond 20-30ft again. One of my dive buddies/instructor found this video today and forwarded it to me, I appreciate you taking the time to do this, would love to chat more if you have any questions or just want to talk more about this of whatever else. I have a lot more diving videos on my channel as well. Also thank you for not just ripping me like 90% of the internet trolls, I could have took down my video, but I believe it's good to see mistakes like this.
Huge thanks for this upload! Panic attacks are horrible but we can learn to beat them! Keep it up!
Thanks for the visit. Appreciate the supportive comment!
pretty straightforward .. skip breathed, causing a hyperventilation.. and/or just had a random panic attack from some or all of the factors you mentioned. As an inexperienced diver, there's more of a tendency for this to happen.. where it gets triggered easily
Hi Jim I am a new diver and discovered your channel looking for info and motivation to change to BPW. I love all your videos and the way you just spell stuff out so clearly. Everyone says use your lungs for buoyancy but yours is the first explanation the shows breathing at the top or bottom of your lungs. LIGHT BULB! I plan to get in a lot of pool time and figure this out. I have a horse shoe BCD ATM and I think I am getting air trapped that is really screwing with my buoyancy. I was decided against a BPW to start with but wish I hadn’t now. I am really hoping The BPW with a donut wing will help going forward. I am late coming to diving but now I have discovered it I am not going to give it up. Thanks again Mark
Thanks so much, Mark, for taking the time to comment. Great to hear about the lung/breath video helping you out. Once you get the hang of that tool for buoyancy control, your buoyancy control will go to another level.
On the BPW, I do think it is the best system, but there is no substitute for time in the saddle for buoyancy skills. When I really buckled down to get control of my buoyancy, I was a DM and spent about 6 hours at 6 meters one day until I could remain almost motionless at that depth. There’s a reason why most courses use 6-8 meters for a lot of training, cuz that zone is the hardest for buoyancy since there are the greatest pressure changes in the top 6-10 meters, and hence buoyancy changes. If you can get a grip of your buoyancy at 6 meters, 10 meters+ will be a breeze. Never stop learning. Every dive for me is still a practice dive. 👍. Ah yes, and ScubaBoard is a great resource for BPW info, if you’ve not been there yet.
I wonder how often uncertified divers get their tanks filled from uncertified air sources. If the tank was filled with an industrial compressor system that was not intended for breathing air, carbon monoxide could have been present in the compressed air. It happens when the compressor oil burns off inside the compressor. Nausea, vomiting, headache, shortness of breath and lack of mental clarity are all symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning. I can't definitely say that is what happened in this case, but it is a possibility.
True, Wesley...We don't have any info about the tank fill source.
@@DiscoveryDiversTokyo Tank fill was legit, shouldn't have been the cause, but great point.
As always, thanks for these analyses! There is not enough non-judgmental incident analysis, so you're filling a void :)
Could it be that this person might have been breathing on the top of his lungs? To me, that would make sense when being overweighted, and would also explain the sensation of not being able to draw air. After all, when your lungs are (nearly) full, there's not much air to be had.
Hi, Ron! I think you’re right, breathing pattern/technique def played a big part. Hard for me to Juergen just what he was doing, but your supposition seems plausible given what we know.
My first thought is their tank was open just a little, maybe half a turn. I guess there was no buddy check so it could of been missed. At depth the regulator couldn't deliver the volume of air needed so breathing became hard. There for he thought he was running out of air even if his SPG showed that he was fine.
At this point we were fully opening our valves and turning back a quarter turn, we don't do that anymore on buddy checks, just fully open the valve. I'm hoping he opened my tank fully, mind you my buddy also was game to take a noob 100ft and turned out he was a noob himself. very stupid.
Why is anyone filming an incident? Scrub the dive, drop camera, do safety stop. Live to dive another day.
Hey Jim, what do you mean by "over-breathing" a reg or a snorkel? Can you describe this a little?
Love your videos byt the way. Keep them coming. Cheers.
Hi Sebastien. If your able to search out a comprehensive regulator comparison, there will be stats on the air each regulator delivers, often studied as a function of depth. Depending on the performance of the regulator and the setting of the second stage, it’s definitely possible for someone trying to demand more air than the reg can deliver (just like water demand from a pipe).
This is really a bit strange.. I totally agree to all your points...
Another Idea what could cause his troubles, is maybe that the valve was fully open..
Hi Martin. another poster brought up that point as you, and although it manifested a bit slowly compared to my experience, I think a definite possibility worth considering.
My guess is that it was an anxiety attack as he points out in his comments.
Could be...
I can’t figure out what brand of regulator he’s using..I did notice there isn’t a breathing effort adjustment knob.
Combined with being inexperienced and at depth perhaps he didn’t know breathing can get harder depending on the regulator configuration? Top it off with a good ol CO2 hit and you got yourself a little panic scenario.
Seems plausible, Wes. Reg performance/setting/adjustment could definitely have been a contributor here.
Just my opinion but I think I may know what happened. Please tell me if I am wrong. Some regulators have a turn dial that will increase your air flow for ease of breathing at deeper depth. Just maybe he has his turned all the way on the lowest setting. Being a new unverified diver he was probably unaware of the feature or its function.
Narcosis at 100 feet? could it be nitrogen narcosis that caused that anxiety attack? Seen early signs of narcosis in other divers as low as 40 feet, of course, they were breathing regular air.
Symptoms of build up of Co2can give you the sensation that even though you are breathing you still feel shortness of breath and that you aren’t getting enough oxygen . If he just started breathing normally and just waited through the uncomfortableness he would’ve maybe been fine?
I’m curious why you mentioned not seeing a computer on either diver twice early on in the video. Can you please clarify why you noted this? Aside from that... I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone (outside of dive school in the services, and only during pool week) developing hypercapnia while diving OC within recreational limits, regardless of the exertion levels. Have you ever come across or heard of such a thing happening before? Maybe it’s just me. Even while lifting and carrying heavy/bulky objects, and finning hard for prolonged periods of time, it’s never happened to me personally. Maybe someone else might have experienced it before? Asthmatics perhaps might, but then there’s a contraindication, and this guy says he eventually got certified, and even after getting certified, he is still blaming his breathing and saying he was hypercapnic... Not sure.
On the computer comment, does not seem obvious how they were timing/monitoring their NDL time.
On the hypercapnia, there’s never really positive/conclusive evidence, just suspicion, right? I’ve had folks freak out with narcosis at depths less than 30 m under exertion. I can only surmise hypercapnia in such circumstances, nothing can be conclusive.
@@DiscoveryDiversTokyo Yes, I noticed both divers had consoles instead of computers. So they had depth gauges, but you’re absolutely right, they still required a timer of some sort. I used a dive watch personally for 15 years until I finally bought my first computer (meaning I also used table for OC dives too, and stuck to them exactly for the dive). I’m very sure you did the same thing. I didn’t see a wrist watch or a classic bottom timer on those consoles either, so you’re right, there’s no way they could have been properly timing their dives. I have heard so many divers these days (including a number of instructors too, which is concerning) claim it is impossible to dive without a computer, and have no clue what tables are (not at all suggesting that’s you, please don’t take it that way, I know better 😁🙏🏻), so when the first mention of noting an absence of a computer comes up, my ears perk a bit. That’s all. 😅
Also, totally understand the narcosis bit. I just never heard of a real documented case of hypercapnia occurring in recreational OC. I’d love to hear if someone has ever actually seen or experienced this. It would be a fascinating study too. In the video, like you noted, they looked calm enough. I suspect the diver simply got narced a bit and freaked out, and I’m still not sure what he meant by throwing up Co2...
@@ArmyVeteranAJ I hear you. Actually, I still usually dive with a bottom timer most of the time.
Definitely a panic attack. I get them at work sometimes and it just feels like no matter how much you breathe in you cannotget enough air, like my lungs are a quarter sized. Cold water gives me a similar reaction and under water it can be a really scary feeling that then triggers a full blown panic attack. It's sounds like that, don't get me wrong, it's incredibly scary and could have gone awry but in reality, it was the fast ascent to the surface that was the issue. Its so hard to tell with the conflicting descriptions though!
Something that is often overlooked as a possibility is vertebral arterial compression specifically when we wear full body wet suits and sometimes dry suits. If you hold your neck straight and do not look down your chest or turn your head too often then you may never experience it. If you do turn your neck the wet suit can cause this type of compression and slow the flow of oxygen to the brain. I do not know if there are any studies that would pair this effect with the increased ppN2 in the brain and it's effects on cognitive functions. The throwing up nitrogen sounds like he swallowed some air at depth and got a nice burp at the surface. Honestly the worse thing I saw in the dive was not starting the body of the dive at the deepest depth especially ially if you are going on a deep dive.
Great point, Weston. Thanks for adding to the conversation. 👍
Good eye, we didn't descend right away, this mining pit is a bit of a step system. 20ft/60ft/100ft and then apparently there's another 230/250ft area from what I'm told.
Don't know also about altitude of lake ? Totally different ballgame to diving at sea level.Hope he's learnt his lesson and takes lessons and becomes certified. Scuba diving as we all know is potentially a dangerous sport if you haven't clue what you are doing
True...
I think he misunderstood the sensation of the air in his lungs expanding as he ascends, as if it was nitrogen that was in his bloodstream being released through his lungs
Yes exactly
Diver seems to be a bit dazed/unfocused as he is giving "dive down" signals when they are/seem still on the "too late" deco stop. I'll agree so far as super shallow breathing will give you less blood oxygenation and increase CO2 concentration in the blood. However, it is almost an incredible feat as there is so little dead air in scuba gear.
I would guess the cold water and no dry suit would explain the actual need for more air per minute.
High CO2 levels, that is uncomfortable and in most people panic inducing if you can't rationalise the "mixed" bodily signals.
The cold doesn't help, 100ft in a semi dry at 41F haaa haaa I tried something similiar like that... ONCE. I was done after 22min in the dive.
Great observations 👍
I'm a bit lucky with my wetsuit, its 7mm, but my core is double layered so I'm relatively warm at depth. I only know my wetsuit, but @ 40F it does get cold at depth for extended periods of time, especially in Tobermory. We did an Ice dive course this past March and it kept me fairly warm after 3 20 minute dives, it's just the gloves and boots that bring the real pain.
@@robsenz. That is nearly exactly the same spec as mine, 6.5mm and doubles up on core. Mine came with some special sauce fuzzy material next to the body, meant to try to hold on already warm water... I have no clue if it actually made any appreciable difference since it's the only scuba wetsuit I have ever tried/used.
Thought I saw a depth gage, but no watch? Could do it old school with a dive watch, depth gage and dive tables.
Yeah, I didn’t see or read mention of a computer or timing device.
I think we probably took a look at dive tables online before doing it, not that we had a real plan, I just know we didn't want to exceed 3 mins bottom time @ 100ft, but we did spend a few minutes at 60ft before going down more
The term you are looking for is hypercapnia --and at least SDI teaches it in OWC.
Thanks for adding to the discussion, Mark 👍
thats the first accident reaction video(by all channels), where i didnt know the original video before. good find!
The accident could be fake of course.. because the video shows nothing. CO2 buildup can cause problems at 100 ft, of course. But going down for a wet decompression with a lungoverexpansion is just suicidal.. I think he is still not experienced... because he would not say, that he had a lungoverexpansion..
Hi Rapha. Yes, this one was an unexpected find. You know, I never did consider the possibility that the event could have been fabricated 😵
@@DiscoveryDiversTokyo Suspect that too as the divers seem to be very coordinated. Not the all jerky movements of a newbie. Also, for a newbie the concern about air consumption is very unusual.
@@markboscawen8330 Thanks for the comment, Mark. On your last point, in my personal experience, newbies are very concnerned about air consumption, especially when diving with more experienced divers that they suspect will have good air consumption.
@@DiscoveryDiversTokyo rereading my comment I’ve realised I’ve not communicated very well, as well as not thinking through the unusual circumstances of this 2nd dive compared to early training dives where the focus is on skills acquisition & not air consumption.
Completely agree, after certification, many newbies become concerned their air consumption cuts dives ‘prematurely’ short for the other diver(s).
@@markboscawen8330 Thanks for elaborating, Mark
Hmmm. I looked at the original and none the wiser. Lack of training and experience of course makes his personal analysis of what went wrong to be of dubious usefulness. Nitrogen narcosis? Likely, and he would be unaware of it. In the absence of anything concrete, like what was in his borrowed cylinder or any sight of his SPG or a time reference, I'd suggest he might have got low on air. Evidence? His breathing seems perfectly normal on the soundtrack until the problem. They have played around at various depths and are now at 100 ft. They are in wet suits in water at 41F. Inexperience plus cold stress is going to mean a high SAC, and with the depth they will be going through gas about as fast as it's possible to do so. Bit of narking, can't breathe, no training, go for the surface. Even if he wasn't bent afterwards a stress reaction could easily make him feel a bit shabby afterwards. I couldn't tell much about the gear but maybe an unballanced regulator might also figure in there somewhere. All speculation though.
Agreed, Tim...this one was def less obviously "causal" than most others...Thanks for checking in 👍
Maybe he didn’t have the tank open 100% and was hyperventilating demanding more air than the regulator was giving out
Hey, SD. Sounds plausibly, though I would have expected the effect to kick in immediately at arrival at 100ft. I had it happen to me once. No mistaking it. Though saying that, could have been a factor 👍
This was the first thing to come to my mind. Poor reg performance, maybe unnoticed at 60 ft. Should have checked if the pressure gauge went down while inhaling, which should have been a telltale, but since he wasn’t even certified maybe didn’t know what to look for. Maybe didn’t kick in inmediatly because pressure differential from bottle to first stage was greater at first.
why didn´t he maybe breath out all the air in his lungs and then switch to the other regulator?
HI Ricardo. Thanks for the view and Q. Both regulators feed form the same tank, and so if there were any problem with the gas in teh tank, no way to escape that.
Panic, I bet if I could compose myself in that moment enought to purge my lungs and slowly take a deep breath I would have been ok. But there was defintely fear of just not being able to get back to the surface after I kept dropping like a rock when I did attempt to ascend.
Frozen or freezing regulator ?
Hi 0-10! I’m not a true cold water diver, but the info I’ve read is most regs are good down to 10C, and when they do fail due to freezing, they would fail in a positive mode, resulting in free flow.
There are some regs that fail closed. I think it's generally referred to as an upstream design, and I don't think they're widely in use anymore. From what I've read, they used to be a thing with tech divers and cavers because a failure didn't mean you were losing your gas. That was all before my time, though, so not sure how popular that ever was. Not super likely that a random diver would randomly be using one of those, though. Anything regular nowadays fails into a free flow like you said.
Poseidon Regs. 👍
@@ronsnijders3636 Poseidon Regs are still in upstream design. But they doesn't fail that way. The first stage of an upstream design reg is pretty much the same as others.
The more special thing is about the second stage. In an upstream design the valve on the second stage opens against the airflow.
So if the middle pressure increases uncontrollable (which happens when the first stage freezes) this upstream valves could theoreticly "lock up", due to the increased pressure.
For that reason current upstream design first stages have a pressure relive valve. They open if the middle pressure rises over a certain point, to reduce the pressure, so that the second stage is still breathable.
@@TheOitzu yes nice explanation. Best regs ever, try them!
Sorry, the only thing interesting about this video was the title
Stop! 100 feet is Advanced Open Water. Step 1 Fire the buddy if they are a Dive Master. 2. NEVER let this guy dive again until he is, at least Open Water Certified and diving with a Dive Master 3 or 1. Take down the original posters video/comments because You sir are 1) an embarrassment to the sport and 2) lucky you are alive!
Why would anyone dive a garbage dump like this? Not worth a $5 air fill.
To each his or her own, I guess...You dive what you got...
Clearest water in the area outside of the Great Lakes and it's a great training spot for divers or just to have a leisure dive. Visibility is typically really nice here.
If you can't say anything nice, . . . .
🤩
You're not a real channel if you don't have haters, right? :D
I’m finding that out 😜
waste of time..
Well, thanks for taking the time to comment, in any case.