True vanguard you aren’t a C tier RUclipsr. You definitely are a S Tier content creator. You are one of the originals. I love your content and how you interact with the viewer with your content
It's not just the meta we are all bored with. It's the terrible team balance, hardware cheats, other cheats, lag etc. I played 3 matches reported 2 people and received a Bungie thank for reporting a players that violated TOS. Also for the most part loot isn't worth the grind.
Intersting meta, seeing Elsies very close in usage to Rose and not a single SMG on that list. Also no Ammit or Prosector. I wonder if that is just because this map plays long range, so the high impact pulses saw more play. But Summoner is still there, and 450's have more range than the Summoner so I wonder if that nerf did kill them off in trials.
@@adamallen3365 thank you! I also got a decent Igneous I might use when there is a Kinetic slot glaive I could use instead of Unexpected Resurgence in PvP
I honestly don't know why I play pvp even more, its always the same loadouts if not extremely similar. Conditional Iggy or Conditional Shayuras with Well or Bubble titan. I don't mind the fact that its a good handcannon, its just annoying always fighting the exact same loadouts almost every single game.
@@joako3733of the top ten weapons, of the primary weapons there is 5 hand cannons (#1, #3, #4, #6, #10), 1 auto rifle (#5), 2 pulse rifles (#7, #9), 2 shotguns (#2, #8). Hand cannons have over nearly double the kills of the second highest kill count. If you’re playing to win right now you play hand cannon and conditional. Without any question.
There's quite no other special that does the same thing. So long as there are no other specials that do the same thing, even with a nerf conditional finality will always be the bubble and well killer.
Why should it get nerfed? It's a great counter to well, bubble and any super. You can freeze and kill any super with it. It doesn't need a nerf at all.
@@otisdriftwood7094 it is out of line, and they all need nerfed. Round 4 of trials shouldn't be a game of Rock Paper Scissors that you can only get the scissors from raiding and being lucky.
@@althechicken9597if there‘s anything out of line is bubble and well being the only supers that are realistic to get and automatic win conditions, especially if you don‘t have conditional. If bubble/well had other counters or wasn‘t that much of an issue, conditional is just a good shotgun, and you know it should be cuz it‘s exotic
@@althechicken9597dude i hate to be that guy but that’s what you signed up for playing a primarily PvE game with a PvP element. Part of what made Crucible so appealing was taking your guns from PvE and bringing them into PvP to kill other players. A lot of the top weapons in Crucible history have come from guns you have to get in PvE. That’s the nature of the game and that will never change
Me personally I’m very happy with the Meta. I feel like many weapons are very viable. Pulse Rifles 2 burst, Prosecutor is still really strong, Heliocentric drank are really good, smgs are strong. The reason I think Handcsnnons are still the most used is because for me it’s my favourite type of weapon. I never take a hand cannon off even if it’s an auto meta. I just love hand cannons
Warlocks have bad exotic options because they have pretty bad abilities. Besides the arc blink melee there isn't really any competition with Celestial Fire and then on top of that what melee exotics do you even have? Claws?! Casting a rift is just an invitation for the enemy to push you since they could walk the entire distance between you before the casting animation ends and you can move again. And again, what rift exotics do you have to pick from? Stag or...? Warlocks as the "grenade class" when most of their grenade exotics are either on kill or don't do anything in PvP. Hunters have arguably the best class ability, it has the shortest cooldown, and they have the best exotics to support it with: double dodge, both dodges, heal on dodge, blink on dodge, disorient on dodge, bombs on dodge... All of which work on top of Threaded Specter, Vanishing Step, On Your Mark, Flow State, and Winter's Shroud.
Hahaha, New Light explaining Solar Warlock hasn't got enough, especially compared to Hunter 😂 oh man tell me you just started playing Destiny without telling me
@@LilHaze117honestly he’s not wrong, warlocks suck but on pc they do stand a chance but in general they still suck. Stasis is countered by the a button or on console it just doesn’t work, strand just sucks, solar you need to be the best of the best, arc is just a bit worse than the other arc classes, void can shut down areas but need teams to be good
Imo hand cannons WILL be the meta as long as they are competitive for one simple reason - people want to use them. If they're roughly even with another weapon, they will still always have the edge because PVP mains think shooting hand cannons makes them better and cooler than shooting any other type of weapon.
But it's also insanely stronger than most all other weapons. Burst damage is good for corner play, cover play in general, makes em work wonders as clean ups or set ups for clean ups like a shotgun. AE is negligible for the most part because you get so much juice per squeeze. Their AA is generous even for the generous AA for all of the weapons. They're magnificent fight starters and fight enders. The best, even. They're effective in damn near every encounter by that sense since they cover two of the three parts of the engagement, spare "during the fight" which doesn't weigh in as much since if you're doing good in one end you can get to the other very easily. Effective results FEEL good. It's like saying steroid users just like the sensation of needle in their ass, and not the conditioned dopamine hit of knowing that sting is making them yoked af.
This copy pasta comment is just cope. People use it because it has the versatility and advantages that make it the best. The reason they feel so good to use is they have insane aim assist and hit boxes and flinch others well
While that is a strong reason I think it’s more because no other primary is like it. To be able to peek shot and put 68-70 on the head is why it’ll always be relevant in the meta conversation
Hand cannon users thinking they have the moral high ground when their guns most of the time have 70+ aim assist and opening shot (the gun is pretty much impossible to miss with)
7:55 - 9:40 I hear what you're saying TV, but I think if there was a Hunter subclass that could create a healing/defensive barrier on the cap point to lock it down, you'd see a similar spread in Hunter subclasses to what Warlock and Titans have now.
My honest opinion is that I think a big part of it is the identity handcannons serve in the playerbase's collective consciousness for most folks. When you think Destiny 2 gunplay and ask a player what feels good about it, the vast majority of players would say they love handcannons and would often name exotic handcannons when asked what is an iconic Destiny weapon. In a balanced meta, if all weapons were truly equally viable, people would STILL pick handcannons because... That's just what Destiny players typically do out of preference. Unless there's a clear balance offset, Guardians will gravitate towards their six-shooters.
Hand cannons are fast and easy to use, it allows people to not commit to a fight by putting in high damage and leaving if they don’t hit a head shot. I have 3000+ kills in my igneous alone and it’s ability to reach near 100s in all stats with the combo of celerity and rapid hit is statistically bonkers
The disparity in subclass usage can probably be explained by simply this. Hunters have no zone cap aiding super that can lock up a round win all by itself. The other classes do. So those subclasses are going to be tremendously favored. The choice is made for them if their primary goal is to win
Silence and Squal literally does this. And I'm not sure what you mean by subclass usage disparity, Hunters have been picked 50% more than Titans and Warlocks for the last 6 months.
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger you can’t sit in a silence and squall and cap the point without being contested by anything other than another super. Hunters are plenty strong, I’m not saying they aren’t. But there’s no denying that the win condition provided by well and bubble is the reason for the lack of variety in warlock/Titan players
@@theezenriarinze9203 tether is similar to squall. Great for clearing the zone when people are on it. But pretty situational for defending it. Also doesn’t counter bubble very well.
I think one important distinction to make is that popularity does not necessarily equal viability. Hunters have been a popular choice for years despite existing in metas where Titans and Warlocks occupied the top winning % rates by subclass by a wide margin, i.e, players winning > 90% of their matches. This doesn't mean that other classes don't have issues with viability and diversity in crucible, but it's easy to conflate those two statistics and make assumptions that aren't necessarily true.
Thing is, if a handcannon and a pulse rifle or auto rifle or whatever are equal in viability, people will still gravitate towards HC for the playstyle and cool factor. Usage and all that isn't everything when you don't consider all variables. Weapons have to be considerably stronger than HC's to edge them out in usage.
Great discussion in this vid as always, TV. My feeling is that no matter how many hunter options you have, you are at a disadvantage playing on hunter no matter what subclass you pick vs. well and bubble. Hoping the super changes go a long way to bringing things more in line which could then open up more viability and variety in warlock and titan options.
I think the Igneous/Conditional is the most OP combination in all of PvP. 120s have better range and damage than 140s and that's exacerbated with Igneous having an adept for stat mods with its stat package being bigger than every other 120 in the game. Igneous covers range better with higher damage to push its range further than a 140, not including the amount of A-tier and above perk combinations you can roll. Conditional being great for shutting down supers like bubble and well makes it one of the best shotguns alongside Matador and it sits in the kinetic slot. The whole build is great for everything from dueling to close quarters and its so potent you might as well run nothing else but this. While Bungie is addressing stats of the other 120s, that won't change a thing with Igneous being the best handcannon in the PvP sandbox.
I don’t think some of the subclasses for Titan and Warlock are bad. It’s just that Well and Bubble are so insanely strong for 3s that you are throwing if you don’t use them. They are practically guaranteed round wins with the fastest cooldowns. Nerfing them would open up the other subclasses to see more play
I agree, except that now blade barrage and tether have the same cooldown as bubble and well. So if bubble and well cooldowns are nerfed, no one would play anything but hunter because supers are almost guaranteed rounds, especially when no one else has one yet.
Hand cannons are stylish and have a high skill ceiling with movement. Punishing if you don’t hit all headshots but very rewarding if you do. I haven’t taken thorn off since the catalyst
First you are in no way a C tier RUclipsr. You're one of my go-to Destiny folks, end of story. As for the meta - let's say as a solo Warlock player reaching his 50th tier around the sun who's been told to 'never touch PVP again' and 'delete their account and uninstall the game' I can't say I've ever enjoyed the meta in any 3v3 arena. I'm literally one of those guys who can only play 3 hours a night thanks to my schedule and being told the way to be successful is (1) Use weapons I don't vibe with (2) Play another class entirely and (3) Raid so I can get Conditional Finality makes getting the (really nice) PVE solo loot in trials about as enjoyable as a colonoscopy without the anesthetic. Honestly, it's your passion for PVP that keeps me coming back, following your advice as best as my old man body can, and trying something new.
Thank you for this one, TV. It’s nice to see the stats back up what is actually felt in the game. As a warlock main it frustrated me so to hear people complain about Ophidians.. when the warlock only has limited exotic PvP options compared to the other classes. Even with the disparity, the game has been a lot of fun to play lately. Big Like on this video.
It's important to remember that that cauldron weekend it was also when the sun oner was dropping so a lot of people trying out rolls, same with this weekend igneous was always gonna be huge because you get a new drop and you try it out in the next game
Weapon wise I don’t mind the meta, so long as the weapons are not too oppressive; I’ll still use what I like using regardless of it being meta or not. I do wish warlocks got some love in the subclass and exotic armor department
I’ll just say this… I do not like hand cannon shotgun metas, but that’s coming from a controller player who is average at best. Scouts and pulses are my favorite to play, and when the majority of players are super aggressive, I can’t stand a chance. Then if I try using hand cannons or shotguns, I have a hard time managing peak shooting because I get out-strafed every time. I don’t know if the because I’m on controller, but it is very frustrating. Shotguns are a whole other beast. For whatever reason, whenever I use a shotgun, it feels like the shots miss entirely more often then not even though I’m on target. It could be down to playing controller again, but that doesn’t make it any less frustrating. I’ve watched many RUclips videos to try and improve, and it just feels like I haven’t been able to get much better. I think it comes down to matchmaking, but I could be wrong. I’d just think that, consistently playing since house of wolves, I should be able to compete in PvP fairly well. PvP has potential to be fun, but it’s much less fun when you’re either being carried or getting stomped in most of your matches.
Also a controller player here. I feel you, I used to be pretty decent on D1 and D2 but since crossplay was introduced the PvP just doesn't feel the same on controller. I can't spin fast enough, head tracking is harder and no way I can outstrafe a mouse and keyboard player. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing in slow motion. I just decided to pretty much stop playing PvP, which is a shame cos it was good.
This is a tale of two visions because to you it looks like warlocks don't have options but to me it just looks like warlocks are only willing to use their "best" options while hunters are more likely, probably due simply to having a larger player population, to try "off-meta" options
Hand Canons are the lightsabers of Destiny.. They just feel cool to use and feel amazing. As long as HC's can hang a lot of people will use them. Also I had my most successful runs this weekend when I switched off HC shotty to SMG/Pulse so just because it's used a lot doesn't mean it was the most effective
I think that the reason a lot of people are fine with hand cannons being the meta is because the gameplay doesn't necessarily shift around them. Handcannons are playable in almost any scenario, so when they're at their best, playstyles don't really have to change around them. Meanwhile, if smg's are at the top, you need to play your distance, and if pulses or scouts are at the top, lanes are death sentences. The funny thing is that, despite them solidly being at the top, I think that most weapon types have at least one thing that they do better than handcannons. It's just a matter of adaptability. If you have a handcannon, playing your cards right will win you a fight against almost any other weapon type, because you have the option to use that hc in a position where the opponents weapon is worse off than yours. As for the subclass usage rates, I do personally believe that every subclass can compete, with the exception of maybe a couple that are in a REALLY bad spot, but the reason that other classes are so much less spread out than hunters is probably just because under the current ruleset solar warlock and void titan are incredibly oppressive. To the degree that if you're on one of those classes and not running that setup, a lot of people would consider it as throwing. Hunters don't have that problem because they don't have that one subclass that is so much better than the rest that it doesn't feel like there's any other option. I suspect that when well and bubble get reigned in with final shape we're gonna see those numbers spread out a bit more. At least, I'd hope so.
Another reason that hunter is so popular, especially on a map like that. Where there's different levels, different lines of sight, different angle it's a lot easier to get to those angles with the hunter jump in their movement in general than it is with a warlock or Titan jump while still trying to shoot in midair
The reason Hunter numbers are so high is dodging is better to break your opponents aim than a barrier or a rift. Not getting hit is better than trying to block or heal through the damage at all skill levels.
Hunter jump is also far more OP than people are willing to talk about. Neither of the other class's jumps can be used as an evasion tool. Hunter jump is essentially a vertical dodge with no cooldown. It is absolutely a huge part of the reason Hunter is picked 50% MORE than the other classes in trials and no one is even discussing it. Not to mention Dodge itself. Neither of the other class abilities extend an active engagement. Dodge creates a get out of jail free card in many situations outside of one-shot kills. If you want to kill a Hunter, you often have to kill them twice. The first time - then they get to reset that would-be death with their panic button - and try again. Though it's probably not worth all the complaining. It's been 10 years. Bungie isn't fixing it.
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger I will rock a Hunter dodge in PvP and a Titan barricade in PvE come Destiny 3. Also just wanted to put this out there because people don’t talk about it as “obvious”
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger Although I somewhat agree with you. You can't tell me void barricade doesn't completely out-shine every other class's ability. It's the single strongest class ability in the game for both PVP and PVE. There's no denying the hunter jump is the strongest jump ability in the game. It's so good, and between triple/strafe jump it can be tricky for people to re-acquire LOS on a hunter compared to warlock/titan. And while dodge is a good safety tool. A pre-emptive rift/void barricade is far far far harder to duel against than any hunter dodge. If you don't have under-over on your gun, and both you, and them land every shot perfectly. The hunter will lose 100% of the time. The hunter is the best at avoiding hits, but Warlock/Titan have defensive abilities that let them get hit WAY more.
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger Also, hunters also have the single worst main stat in the game, and they're the only class that needs to pay attention to all 3 in PVP. Low res is a death sentence, and low recovery will keep you out of fights way longer than any warlock/titan since they can max out both stats, and still have well balanced secondary stats.
I don’t understand why Bungie thinks I wanna do Trials carries in solos. I know we all get the bad teammates sometimes but Jeez…I CONSTANTLY, more times than not, get 0.3s to 0.8s on my team while the other team is crazy stacked. I hate sbmm but I hate this too. I don’t mind having bad players on my team as long as the other team also has bad players. The balancing is nonexistent.
Okay, so what's the solution then? You say you hate SBMM but you also hate getting matched with random players, so how do you want it? You just want to be the best player on your team while the other team also has one good player so you two can duel while the lower skill players play amongst themselves? Strawmaning here a little, obviously, but I hope you see my point.
I think one of the reasons hunters have more diversity is they don't have a lockdown support super. If they had something like well or bubble that's all you'd see. On the flip side, if supers weren't a thing in trials you'd see people using other classes for the play-making neutral game.
If supers weren't available arc would be a top choice because of the many ability Regen fragments, also for some reason bungie can't make innovative warlock exotics as a whole especially for pvp just look at the new chest peace for final shape
People complain about dawnblade but the reason you see it so often is because of how mid the other warlock subclasses are. In this sandbox, either you have to have a highly mobile setup or have some sort of heal/overshield/ability spam (which is why osiomancy is good). I think a lot of it could be solved if healing and empowering rifts got a buff to their animation speed so its easier to heal mid fight instead of becoming ape bait every time. Solar is the only subclass that doesn't have an aspect tied to the rift, so I think this would naturally help bring the other subclasses up a bit in terms of usage
Hey can't say enought how much you are one of the only RUclipsrs I enjoy watching. Keep it up TV, I appreciate you and I know a lot of other people do too. Imma keep showing up!
Also! Thoughts. Brief. I think pulses are still viable, lightweights feel great, heavier frames like messenger or elsies are still pulling weight. The problem is igneous. The same as the problem with bows was monarch. Bungie doesn't understand that certain weapons are just oppressive because of their stats or traits... which is... odd? I don't know how you see igneous hammers doing this and think "its a handcannon issue". Ok I lied not brief. But for warlocks I agree completely. They don't know what to do with the class in PVP. They are confused so confused when ti comes to exotics in general as well. One thing that I would love to hear your thoughts on is heavy ammo in PVP. I personally think it's the least fun mechanic currently. Out of all abilities or classes. Heavy ammo ruins more games for me. In 6's I think its abhorent that all members can pull. And in 3's I think it's annoying at best.
Very validating to hear this info! Many elite PvPers would have you believe that Solar warlock and Void Titan are the ONLY viable choices for PvP. Some would argue that Void titan and Solar Lock are so overpowered that their players won't use anything else, while claiming that Hunter doesn't have a place in the meta (copium).The hunter class has WAY more strong options for endgame PvP. That's why it's so popular. (my thoughts on the sandbox as a reply to this in order to keep this comment short and sweet)
(ABILITY SANDBOX) Well and Bubble are oppressive by themselves. Strand hunter is so strong it might as well be the infinity gauntlet from Fortnite... Don't like strand hunter? Void hunter exploits the most important mechanic inPvP! (radar). Void hunter takes too much brain power? They can run blade barrage + athrys's embrace and get the cheeseist melee kills possible. None of those interest you? Revenant hunter can spam slow + damage boost weapons for faster ttk with Bakris. (not to mention revenant hunter super lasts 2 years, tracks, and traps people inside to kill them). The solar titan OHKO wave is comically cheesey and requires little skill to get multikills with. (WEAPON, GEAR SANDBOX) Sidearms are low risk - high reward primaries that require much less skill than other close range options (due to very forgiving bodyshot ttk AND requiring less hits than SMGs) while being more lethal in close range than anything but specials (which have much higher cost to use due to ammo scarcity) Don't get me started on how broken Forerunner is lol. Stomp33s give hunters the best 'neutral game' in the crucible with ZERO drawback or cooldown. The flinch mechanic punishes players for using weapons that don't have high stability, allowing players with more accurate guns (easier to use) to barely need to aim, while weapons that are less stable (harder to use) are flinched onto a differnt map and ultimately unable to dependably hit shots. Snipers are not viable for a majority of MnK players; requiring you to either have elite MnK skill, use controller, or use a Xim. Hand cannons still lob melons at people.
Don’t downplay yourself TV you’re one of my main destiny creators I watch and you’ve helped me improve in many aspects of the game even went flawless this weekend with briars cuz of you lol
Just goes to show you that only bad players crutched their free teamwipes with Cloudstrike 2 shots on spawn and had no real skill. So-called "sniper mains" all crutching shotgun now lmao
@@literallynobody1515 yeah I’d agree with you on that. Cloudstrike was so dumb getting multi kills for one snipe. I wish I could use mercurial / beloved more though now
I wanted to slap you like Edna did to Elastigirl when you called yourself a C-Tier creator. And like she said, "GET. YOURSELF. TOGETHER. YOU ARE TRUE VANGUARD!" Or at least I think that's the quote from the movie. lol You are one of the most informative and reasonable creators out there, especially in the D2 space. You never give a viewpoint on something without testing it out and comparing it to other options and you never give a take on the game that isn't well thought out understanding both sides of the argument. You think outside the box and learn how to make some "off-meta" builds work to perfection. Keep up the awesome work
we had the smg meta, then the auto meta and i thought it was meh not terrible, but i think the hand cannon meta is stale and like you said needs to be nerfed. however, i want all weapon types to be viable and good and have bungie let us have more competitive options
@@Sicruett You're right, but in my mind there are some potential nerf ideas that I would tell bungie to consider, aiming for a balance between toning them down and keeping them viable: Option 1: Range Falloff Adjustments: This wouldn't be a drastic nerf, but could make other weapon types more competitive in specific ranges. Bungie could slightly decrease the effective damage range of hand cannons, encouraging shotgunners to close the gap and pulse rifles to hold their ground at mid-range. Option 2: Flinch Rebalance: Flinch is the screen shake caused when taking damage. A slight increase in flinch from hand cannons could make it harder to land those precise follow-up shots, rewarding good aim from the opposing player. Option 3: Archetype Tuning: Not all hand cannons are created equal. Bungie could target specific archetypes (like the dominant 140 RPM ones) with adjustments to damage output, recoil patterns, or reload speeds. This allows them to address outliers without hurting all hand cannons.
I hope Bungie doesn't nerfs anything about handcannons I think they are not overpowerd at all especially because the 120 handcannons are the meta and they have a really slow time to kill with a full second. Those 120 handcannons are not that good on their own they are just that popular because they have a lot of range and are great at team-shooting just like the high impact pulse rifles you can do quite a lot of damage with those weapons with getting just one burst or bullet on an enemy team player and than have your teammates finishing up the kill with team shoots.
In terms of weapon balance when hand cannons make up the majority of kills it is usually split between 140 and 120s. Admittedly 120s are dominated by a singular weapon in the archetype but there are tons of competitive 140 hand cannons. However when we've seen other weapons with useage spikes like that its usually because of a singular archetype and usually because of 1 to 3 weapons in that archetype. Worth keeping in mind when talking about these historical spikes.
I think part of the issue for subclasses is the super tiers. If I want to get a super in Trials as a Titan, I need to run bubble. I went flawless for my first time last weekend running Arc Titan (with Ace of Spades/Cartesian Coordinate), and in 30+ games I never got closer than 3/4 of a super bar. In previous weekends when I've run Void Titan, I routinely got my bubble and was able to steal rounds (or at least force counter supers). I like the Arc kit better, so I decided to just stick with that, but Void is definitely easier.
Personally I had a good time in trials this weekend with ability and special usage, still available but not constant. Felt like I needed to be more strategic with their usage. I had some good success with traveler's chosen, but most of my wins came with thorn or Luna. I think you definitely right about the class balancing though, and after now getting a decent adept igneous, it does feel like easy mode even if it is enjoyable.
Love you TV, you are always and S tier content creator! You always have fit content more aligned with my playstyle, so never feel like you're not good enough! P.S. love your views when in DCP, keep it up :)
I will say regarding warlock, stasis warlock is under used and has some good options other than ophidians and osmiomancy, stag getting your rift back and dropping a healing rift on death is great, balidores for frost armor/ stasis surge, but you are correct hunters have the most options for sure.
I enjoy sidearms and lightweight weapons(short range primaries) the most, I like to pair them with snipers. And honestly, I feel like hand cannons/shotguns are the identity of Destiny PVP. And I kinda like it, because it is more rewarding to close the gap against them compared to doing that against autos and pulses. And it feels like they have their distinctive range, and easier to duel them.
The simple answer is handcannons are cool, and are very popular with most of the playerbase. When they are not very good, the request for buffs are always incredibly loud compared to literally any other weapon.
Really enjoyed this video, I run lucky pants last word Lunas and have been really enjoying this weeks trials. Went flawless first try, feels like a mid to close range map if you play the angles right. Titans can be annoying around tight angles, and warlocks floating at range. But that’s not bad, different classes should have different abilities. We have dodge, and technically more uptime of our melee with gamblers. But overall I’d say the meta doesn’t seem too bad except the overuse of igneous and (un)conditional combo lol. Seems a little strong especially when that’s the go to combo.
I've been tired of hand cannons being meta for years. I just don't find the style of play fun. It's just sliding around in and out of cover, jumping around everywhere, running away the second you take damage
I love playing other niche weapons/builds but I do think when the meta is handcannon its the most balanced. The auto and smg metas leaves no room to breathe and pulse and scouts is too slow. As a day 1 warlock, the discussion about exotics is eye opening and explains why I been thinking about switching my "main". I am craving more diverse builds at the high end pvp.
Problem is the matchmaking. If you’re a pretty good player and for whatever reason don’t go flawless within your first 3 cards, it’s a wrap. You’re gonna be playing 7-9 lighthouse games against 3 stacks.
Been following for a while. It was an honor to match against you this morning. Never been happier to get 5-0’d lol. your vids have helped me get a lot better and gives us warlocks hope
I think handcannons will always be a favorite, and they don’t get nerfed frequently because require more skill to achieve optimal TTK than other options. I like using a bunch of stuff, don’t mind variety. And I think trials/PVP meta is fairly balanced in practice but slanted in terms of statistics
As someone who plays a lot of Shadebinder, I would like to say that Osmiomancy Gloves aren't always the best pick. They are good and pretty easy to use, but not always best. I use Transversives with Duskfields personally for consistency All this to say that yeah no, even with Osmio that high up it still doesn't always compare to the other two
As long as the game is aiming for even an inkling of a competitive state, the METAs will come and go. Players will flock to what is viable and easiest to master. This has been the Destiny way since the beginning of franchise. The problem is Bungie does not give room for other players to create their own unique METAs due to not improving the struggling and underutilized concepts that people want to use but dont because it does not hit the mark for being viable and powerful. Everything you stated is spot on and I have been saying in the forums for years on and off. Viability and Potency should go hand in hand. A Warlock and Titan who can consume a grenade, melee and class ability could easier go a long way. Supers need to be roaming, supportive and shutdown by default. When they bring in new supers, all supers need to come with the same layout ie shutdown or defensive but different concept of play.
After being gone for over a year, i found it refreshing that the meta let almost all weapons shine. I have always been a handcannon main so you wont hear my complain much.
I would love to see Trials Report put out another "top end stats" report like they did a year or so back, showcasing what the spread on players that are winning 90%+ of their games while also playing 50+ games a weekend are using exclusively. There were some massive outliers in terms of what that group was using compared to the general meta last time, and I'd be curious to see if there were similar things. Particularly I remember Void Titan and Khepri's Sting being *way* more common than in the general population, as well as Behemoth (likely due to how well it could play in 3-stacks). Some of that has since been changed, but I'm curious if there are any similar discrepancies. Part of me wonders, because while I was seeing a lot of Igneous this weekend, that wasn't the gun I was struggling to beat. It was stuff like Elsie's that was screwing me up, because a lot of the lanes on the new map are at ranges where even Igneous starts to run into the harsh hand cannon range fall off relative to things like pulses, scouts and autos that are a bit more forgiving past drop off. 'Cause sure, even baseline Igneous doesn't feel falloff till 35m, but it's fallen off *entirely* by 50, whereas Summoner might start at 25m baseline, it doesn't actually finish falling off till over 60m, and it's going from 25 damage to 15, not 88 to 29. It really does feel like a map where hand cannons *shouldn't* be performing as well as they are, but at some point if 60% of the players are using hand cannons, it's not surprising the account for a huge chunk of the kills, hence the kill count by weapon type is only a part of the story, and you need usage numbers to really see how well they're performing.
My problem is that any time a non handcannon meta appears the complaining and whinging starts immediately. Immortal was hit with a range nerf a month after release. Shayuras had its zoom and range nerf 5 times. But yet Igneous hammer has had been on top longer then either of those two outliers. But you even suggest a nerf to Iggy o handcannons can the pitch forks come out in mass. Shit is so old at this point it dont even matter
You completely lost me on this one, hand cannons are a skill based weapon. And ALL skill based weapons should be rewarded. Anyone can hold down the trigger with a auto rifle it's not difficult. Ppl would be rewarded for using more skill based weapons.
I think if the trials gamemode was changed then the Warlock and Titan subclass balance shifts completely. Defensive supers in a mode that practically gives a free win when used on a point makes the choice super obvious. Since the best Hunters have is a shut down to said defensive supers, theres a lot of good subclass choices. Or a Hunter can just forego a shutdown super in favor of better neutral play as is the case with Strand.
Conditional will go down in usage when there are other counters to bubble/well. Igneous is a different story, precision instrument just needs a nerf for it to be put in it's place. Tbh I preferred the immortal meta, over the scout/pulse/handcannon meta we've had since witch queen. It at least got titans to not barricade as frequently. Also, titans and warlocks don't have "just one good option". They're over tuned. In a 4-4 game bubble/well will auto win if nobody has conditional ammo. Nerf them and they'll more likely resemble the hunter split for subclass usage.
Hard agree on being able to counter hc’s, regardless of them being top dawgs. I always feel comfortable taking on just about any engagement w the combo of pulse/sidearm like you said yourself
Worst part about it is bubble and well. I find hand cannon metas fun as they reward good map control and can be outplayed by aggressive players with short ttk weapons if not peak shooting properly. My only problem with igneous is that PI makes it able to 2 head 1 body any resil, but besides that I think it’s not that bad. Conditional could use some tuning around how strong its stasis spread is and its handling but think it’ll fall off a little once bubble and well are nerfed enough. Could also note that I think since adept and non adept are split and shiny and non shiny are split, that summoner, Elsie’s, messenger, lunas, likely all compete with ace of spades for that number 2 spot, so it’s not that unbalanced there imo. All that to say that I think other things are shining as well, just not to an extreme extent as entire archetypes. If PI is nerfed for 120’s and conditional is nerfed with bubble and well nerfs being enough I think we’ll see a relatively balanced meta.
I love when HCs are on top and I dont mind it at all. For some reason fighting anything else other than HCs just feels oppressive and a lot more than an issue
As for the video now that I have watched and grasped. It's important to note that alot of warlock exotics take effect mostly on a subclass, most of said subclasses have very little staying power in pvp. It's not exactly warlock exotics being bad in pvp, it's partly because alot of them don't promote any sort of benefiting effects on solar, the best warlock pvp class. When alot of the warlock exotics have basically little effect in pvp or you have to play a troubled subclass to use one, it's not very worth building into.
This just goes to show what Bungie really cares about. That is to keep Handcannons and Hunters on top. Handcannons are rarely nerfed and Hunters usually get overtuned Aspects. There's a reason why Strand Hunter is significantly higher than the other Strand Subclasses. Not only that but after nerfing Stompees to require a Class Ability or else they effectively don't have an Exotic, they applied the same nerf to Antaeus but reversed the nerf on Stompees. Anteaus was strong for sure and needed a nerf, but this seems unfair that the Class Ability nerf for Stompers was removed but not for Anteaus
The fact that every Titan and Warlock run the same subclass isn't the hunters fault. It's because Well and Bubble are simply overpowered in pvp, where zone control wins games. Hunters have more of a spread because they don't have one specific thing that's way out of line. Same thing goes for exotics. Who's fault is it that warlocks can't take off their snake gloves unless they are on freeze mode.
This right here - well and bubble are top tier SSS in dominion because they amount to almost automatic round wins. If a raid boss can’t deal enough dps to overcome a well or bubble, how can a guardian? This is why finality and igneous are on top as well - finality offers a means to combat those supers, and igneous is a solar 120, making it compatible with finality and the artifact mods for radiant at the same time. If the map was smaller, you’d probably see more lunas on that list.
They're strong but op? Idk man I take down bubbles all the time with and without conditional. Wells you can snipe them out. A huge reason is titans and warlocks have no other choice. All other subclasses suck for pvp for those characters.
@@thehashslaingingslasherI can't say they suck. Well at least on a titan. Arc titan is still strong in pvp especially in the 6s and strong in the 3s. Solar titan with some build craft is stoooopid strong. Precious scars plus heal clip plus kill clip is a STRONG combination. I don't want to sound mean but destiny 2 community goal is always to complain rather than find routes that can compete or counter the meta.
@jamaledwards8118 Precious scars is good for survivability and teamplay, but that's about it. You could run a KC weapon with one eyed mask and do better on void. For solid 3s options, you're kinda stuck on void, mostly for the overshields. Arc is still very good in 6s and in 3s if you really lean into getting up close with acds or synthos, but that usually ends up bad. Solar titan counters void titan extremely well, but you gotta lean into sunspots to really make it work. Outside of that, I see no reason to run solar. The problem is there's only 1 way to really run each subclass on Titan for pvp, and that's the part that sucks. It's just so limiting. That's why you don't really see those people out like that.
Hand cannons are fine when they’re the meta but 120s specifically where they can challenge every other weapon in the game is where it’s not fun and then paired with a shotgun you have absolutely everything you need. Shotguns being the only true reliable special weapon really sucks cause if I don’t run one then I feel like defending my myself from a titan ape is impossible. I much prefer to use GLs like truth teller or pardon and also use fusions here and there but the transmat system kinda limits those particular special weapons at least for GLs. The only time where the special ammo transmat feels good is limiting snipers so multiple sniper users on the enemy team feels less threatening and actually possible to go down a lane.
I think the current weapon meta is fine. It just gets tedious when fighting a lobby full of people whose default play style is "backpedal while spamming primary shots". As for subclasses, last year I accepted the fact that warlocks (my fav) are THE PvE class so they get little attention for PvP tuning. It would be nice to have more options for warlocks and titans, but I guess Bungie wants to give New Lights a more predictable Crucible experience, which is understandable.
Might seem like a really dumb question but as someone new to trials (im not paying for lightfall) can the summoner still random drop from an engram this trials? My understanding is every 3 rank ups you get a powerful engram in which could be any weapon at random (inducing the summoner ?) but all other rank up engrams will only be a weapon you already own? is this correct? Ive not reset my passage card thing as thinking this is the best way to get closer to ranking up to get those powerful engrams every 3 ranks and hopefully unlock summoner (if i can unlock it this week?)
Handcannons are the easiest to use weapons in the game, so I could stand to see a few unpopular weapons on top of the meta. I think both titans and warlocks could use some more subclass diversity, especially as a warlock main. And yes, the warlocks get the shaft when it comes to PvP exotics, and honestly exotics in general
Thank you for showing the percentages of sub class usage. Im not crying that hunters are OP, but titans and warlocks SEVERELY need some help. titans hardly have any good supers, only bubble or t crash and both have been nerfed a lot recently (bubble nerf coming in TFS)
I'm surprised Lunas howl is so low. I thought it would've been higher. People thought we would've been in an auto rifle meta with summoner but that really didn't last long.
Kinda sucks that snipers were so dominant for so long, they get nerfed because they are too strong, and then we change the amount of ammo snipers get. The skill floor for snipers has risen dramatically, while shotguns have generally been fine, besides global changes like slide accuracy and AE.
My main problem rn is shotguns i feel like they’re panic buttons most of the time and with titans being so prevalent and them having so many ways to close gaps i see more and more titans just rushing like bulls
The trials meta is so good right now. Sidearms, conditional and chaperone probably need an adjustment but autos, HCs and pulses are all in a great spot balance wise.
@@TrueVanguard haha I just threw that in there because I knew you love them. Aside from chaperone and conditional though we’re in an amazing meta. I use mostly pulses (10k crucible kills on my bygones, excited for it to be usable again) and syncopation and chattering bone have been great this week!
@@TrueVanguard I don't think Bungie has ever nerfed sidearms and their usage rate don't warrant it, however sidearms are very good and if they ever get nerfed you will never be able to protect yourselfs against shotguns with sidearms, sidearms are great self defense from shotguns
I'd like to see Iggy taken down a bit and legendary shotties (mostly agg frame) brought up a notch. It isnt even really a HC+shotty meta. Its an Iggy+Conditional meta. And combined with Dominion it makes for incredibly boring games where everybody just takes potshots at each other until the zone comes in. Subclass usage really shows the core issue. Well and Bubble are just instant win conditions as long as its about capturing a zone. If Hunters had a fast charging super that allowed near-immortality in a specific area they would 100% run that as well. I dont think the core problem is Warlocks/Titans having no other options, its that they have 1 option that is designed for standing in a zone.
Hmm The warlock exotic choice is a multifaceted issue and probably lies deeper than just “they don’t have enough choices” imo. Like most warlocks playing to go flawless are also hunter mains TBF. So switching between subclasses, it’s just easier to pick something that passively gives you a boost such as transversives and ophids if I had to guess.
Unpopular take on why hunters are dominant in pvp: hunter jump and class ability are far superior in pvp than warlock and titan, especially on one on one engagements. They have a lot of exotics that boost these abilities while warlock and titan have very few choices. I love the hunter class. It’s a lot of fun but having played all classes in pvp I definitely see the advantage. Maybe that’s just me , if you don’t agree that’s okay, I’m just an average PvP player. Much love TV I like seeing you do well brother 🤘
Only reason well/bub are used more is cus they are free wins with the super. when they are nerfed, other classes will be SOO viable all the sudden. Give hunter a super that caps a round to win trial games for existing in a match for 5 min and the numbers will shift immediately
(Keep in mind this is from someone who is, at best, slightly above average in pvp, so please save your "You're just a bad hunter" comments, I already know) 1. Regarding the near constant hand cannon meta, I think it's fine, particularly because of how hand cannons work and where the general aim for Bungie's balancing is, them being a hard hitting weapon that you can peak out of cover with is always going to be a major factor favoring them over other primaries. I think the only options to kick them out of that place would end in them feeling like shit for the more average player, which I assume is where Bungie's aim is. 2. For subclasses, I think warlocks and titans are just in a weird place where their best subclasses are really good, but the rest of them are below average. Warlocks in particular have, in my opinion, the singular best subclass in the game in Dawnblade, seriously it seems Bungie just loves this subclass and tries to give it literally everything, meanwhile their other subclasses are just subpar. Similar with titans and Defender but not as extreme, but overall things like Dawnblade along with Defender getting a free overshield just from placing a barricade make them feel annoying to play against and give the illusion of the whole class being busted. I personally think at least Dawnblade and maybe Defender should get a slight nerf, but all the rest of the warlock/titan subclasses should get some buffs to bring them up to par with the hunter subclasses. I also agree Arcstrider definitely needs something more for pvp, being a melee subclass when titans exist kinda sucks. 3. Don't really have much to say about exotics, I feel like the lack of viable warlock exotics could maybe be at least partially fixed by warlock subclasses being more balanced, since they have a lot more subclass specific exotics than titans or hunters. Edit: back to number 2, something that I think is particularly missing for warlocks is viable supers, roaming ones in particular, since most of them have little to no range.
I think the problem mainly lies in the high end hand cannons being so much better than everything else, maybe iggy and rose need a touch to bring them down but I don’t think that all hand cannons are just op
Usage =/= strength. I think it’s important to consider that adaptive Handcannons are the benchmark at which Bungie balances the rest of the weapons around. Handcannons have between middle of the pack to the LONGEST ttk (depending on archetype) for weapons in the crucible. They’re a difficult weapon to balance too because you can’t just increase the ttk…that would make them completely unusable. Handcannons are also trading ttk AND range flexibility that autos and pulses have for burst damage and better aim assist in their optimal range. Autos and pulses can often shred handcannon users with a better ttk. The reason Bungie nerfed autos is because autos were the superior choice using a TTK that beats out most weapons with a range that also competed against nearly all weapons.
The weapon meta doesn't bother me too much. There really isn't any one combination that is so overwhelmingly dominant (think Lord of Wolves/Omni Meta or OG Lorenz Driver) that you have to use it if it's on the other team in order to have a chance... HOWEVER... I think that specifically Void Titan (not the super as much) but the Bastian Overshield is just so overwhelmingly dominant as a neutral game that it's just boring to play against. Especially if there are multiple on one team. Warlock doesn't have anything that bothers me right now except for the occasional lightning surge damage chaining off walls to insta kill you. Strand hunter is only annoying if the other person has some lag, which makes the game not able to catch up with the player. That's about it, thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
I tried to use my old bygones pulse and it just feels like the 3 round bursts don't land at the same time. Dueling hand cannons felt bad, we both need three trigger pulls but mines felt like it was taking too long to do damage and I lost. I do think everything should be viable so everyone can use what they like.
I have been a striker regardless of its meta status for about a decade now, and nothing gives me life like crushing Bubbles and Wells with Fist of Havoc
Regarding your questions about hand cannons: I don't mind when people use them, I think a lot of players think they take a lot more skill to use then they do and they like to sit on a pedestal thinking they're the edgelord best pvp player ever. They get a ridiculous amount of AA compared to just about anything else, and the map sizes and current ranges make them mini-snipers right now especially igneous. But if people wanna use them and shotties, go for it. I will Dad-rifle-sidearm against them all day long.
True vanguard you aren’t a C tier RUclipsr. You definitely are a S Tier content creator. You are one of the originals. I love your content and how you interact with the viewer with your content
You misspelled S++ tier 😅
C for cringe.
@@xeternalxeyesx nice projection there bud
@@xeternalxeyesxC for could have kept that to yourself. Go project somewhere else.
Agreed!
It's not just the meta we are all bored with. It's the terrible team balance, hardware cheats, other cheats, lag etc. I played 3 matches reported 2 people and received a Bungie thank for reporting a players that violated TOS. Also for the most part loot isn't worth the grind.
This! The hardware cheating on console is out of control and all companies just refuse to do anything.
Yep. Stopped playing Crucible completely because of lobby balancing. It has been so bad for years now. Exhausting.
Intersting meta, seeing Elsies very close in usage to Rose and not a single SMG on that list. Also no Ammit or Prosector. I wonder if that is just because this map plays long range, so the high impact pulses saw more play. But Summoner is still there, and 450's have more range than the Summoner so I wonder if that nerf did kill them off in trials.
Skill issue imo
@@vacidflowerxo2595 how long have you been cheating?
I JUST went Flawless for my very first time today and I've been playing for 3 years
Congratulations!
@@TrueVanguard thank you so much!!! I still have to wrap my head around it that I actually did it! I think the realisation still has to hit me
Nice man! 🤙.. good weekend to do it seeing how last weekend for Igneous
@@adamallen3365 thank you! I also got a decent Igneous I might use when there is a Kinetic slot glaive I could use instead of Unexpected Resurgence in PvP
@@kingechatronii7379congrats best pvp weapon in the game!
I honestly don't know why I play pvp even more, its always the same loadouts if not extremely similar. Conditional Iggy or Conditional Shayuras with Well or Bubble titan. I don't mind the fact that its a good handcannon, its just annoying always fighting the exact same loadouts almost every single game.
That’s just not true I played against HC Summoners Pulses Mida some sidearms
The numbers show a lot more hunters than wells and bubbles.
@@joako3733of the top ten weapons, of the primary weapons there is 5 hand cannons (#1, #3, #4, #6, #10), 1 auto rifle (#5), 2 pulse rifles (#7, #9), 2 shotguns (#2, #8). Hand cannons have over nearly double the kills of the second highest kill count. If you’re playing to win right now you play hand cannon and conditional. Without any question.
Me in the corner doing vile shit with rat king and a nade launcher
@@MitchHeaslip found the bubble crutcher
incredible that conditional finality is the most used special weapon period and no nerf
There's quite no other special that does the same thing. So long as there are no other specials that do the same thing, even with a nerf conditional finality will always be the bubble and well killer.
Why should it get nerfed? It's a great counter to well, bubble and any super. You can freeze and kill any super with it. It doesn't need a nerf at all.
@@otisdriftwood7094 it is out of line, and they all need nerfed. Round 4 of trials shouldn't be a game of Rock Paper Scissors that you can only get the scissors from raiding and being lucky.
@@althechicken9597if there‘s anything out of line is bubble and well being the only supers that are realistic to get and automatic win conditions, especially if you don‘t have conditional. If bubble/well had other counters or wasn‘t that much of an issue, conditional is just a good shotgun, and you know it should be cuz it‘s exotic
@@althechicken9597dude i hate to be that guy but that’s what you signed up for playing a primarily PvE game with a PvP element. Part of what made Crucible so appealing was taking your guns from PvE and bringing them into PvP to kill other players. A lot of the top weapons in Crucible history have come from guns you have to get in PvE. That’s the nature of the game and that will never change
Me personally I’m very happy with the Meta. I feel like many weapons are very viable. Pulse Rifles 2 burst, Prosecutor is still really strong, Heliocentric drank are really good, smgs are strong. The reason I think Handcsnnons are still the most used is because for me it’s my favourite type of weapon. I never take a hand cannon off even if it’s an auto meta. I just love hand cannons
Warlocks have bad exotic options because they have pretty bad abilities. Besides the arc blink melee there isn't really any competition with Celestial Fire and then on top of that what melee exotics do you even have? Claws?! Casting a rift is just an invitation for the enemy to push you since they could walk the entire distance between you before the casting animation ends and you can move again. And again, what rift exotics do you have to pick from? Stag or...? Warlocks as the "grenade class" when most of their grenade exotics are either on kill or don't do anything in PvP.
Hunters have arguably the best class ability, it has the shortest cooldown, and they have the best exotics to support it with: double dodge, both dodges, heal on dodge, blink on dodge, disorient on dodge, bombs on dodge...
All of which work on top of Threaded Specter, Vanishing Step, On Your Mark, Flow State, and Winter's Shroud.
Couldn't have stated it better. You also forgot that Hunters have way more fragments at their disposal. Warlocks get 4 or 3. 😅
Hahaha, New Light explaining Solar Warlock hasn't got enough, especially compared to Hunter 😂 oh man tell me you just started playing Destiny without telling me
@@LilHaze117honestly he’s not wrong, warlocks suck but on pc they do stand a chance but in general they still suck. Stasis is countered by the a button or on console it just doesn’t work, strand just sucks, solar you need to be the best of the best, arc is just a bit worse than the other arc classes, void can shut down areas but need teams to be good
@@LilHaze117 is being wrong a prerequisite for your opinions to be as confident as they are?
Hunters dodge is nothing compared to Icarus dash
Imo hand cannons WILL be the meta as long as they are competitive for one simple reason - people want to use them. If they're roughly even with another weapon, they will still always have the edge because PVP mains think shooting hand cannons makes them better and cooler than shooting any other type of weapon.
Honestly facts. It's always been like this. Hcs are the main unique weapon in destiny
But it's also insanely stronger than most all other weapons. Burst damage is good for corner play, cover play in general, makes em work wonders as clean ups or set ups for clean ups like a shotgun. AE is negligible for the most part because you get so much juice per squeeze. Their AA is generous even for the generous AA for all of the weapons.
They're magnificent fight starters and fight enders. The best, even. They're effective in damn near every encounter by that sense since they cover two of the three parts of the engagement, spare "during the fight" which doesn't weigh in as much since if you're doing good in one end you can get to the other very easily.
Effective results FEEL good. It's like saying steroid users just like the sensation of needle in their ass, and not the conditioned dopamine hit of knowing that sting is making them yoked af.
This copy pasta comment is just cope. People use it because it has the versatility and advantages that make it the best. The reason they feel so good to use is they have insane aim assist and hit boxes and flinch others well
While that is a strong reason I think it’s more because no other primary is like it. To be able to peek shot and put 68-70 on the head is why it’ll always be relevant in the meta conversation
Hand cannon users thinking they have the moral high ground when their guns most of the time have 70+ aim assist and opening shot (the gun is pretty much impossible to miss with)
7:55 - 9:40 I hear what you're saying TV, but I think if there was a Hunter subclass that could create a healing/defensive barrier on the cap point to lock it down, you'd see a similar spread in Hunter subclasses to what Warlock and Titans have now.
Plus that’s not the point of Hunters. They’re always on the move, meant to be the wandering lone gun. Why would they have a team defense super?
My honest opinion is that I think a big part of it is the identity handcannons serve in the playerbase's collective consciousness for most folks.
When you think Destiny 2 gunplay and ask a player what feels good about it, the vast majority of players would say they love handcannons and would often name exotic handcannons when asked what is an iconic Destiny weapon.
In a balanced meta, if all weapons were truly equally viable, people would STILL pick handcannons because... That's just what Destiny players typically do out of preference. Unless there's a clear balance offset, Guardians will gravitate towards their six-shooters.
Hand cannons are fast and easy to use, it allows people to not commit to a fight by putting in high damage and leaving if they don’t hit a head shot. I have 3000+ kills in my igneous alone and it’s ability to reach near 100s in all stats with the combo of celerity and rapid hit is statistically bonkers
The disparity in subclass usage can probably be explained by simply this. Hunters have no zone cap aiding super that can lock up a round win all by itself. The other classes do. So those subclasses are going to be tremendously favored. The choice is made for them if their primary goal is to win
Silence and Squal literally does this. And I'm not sure what you mean by subclass usage disparity, Hunters have been picked 50% more than Titans and Warlocks for the last 6 months.
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger you can’t sit in a silence and squall and cap the point without being contested by anything other than another super. Hunters are plenty strong, I’m not saying they aren’t. But there’s no denying that the win condition provided by well and bubble is the reason for the lack of variety in warlock/Titan players
@@froseph3970Tether can do that though
@@theezenriarinze9203 tether is similar to squall. Great for clearing the zone when people are on it. But pretty situational for defending it. Also doesn’t counter bubble very well.
I think one important distinction to make is that popularity does not necessarily equal viability. Hunters have been a popular choice for years despite existing in metas where Titans and Warlocks occupied the top winning % rates by subclass by a wide margin, i.e, players winning > 90% of their matches.
This doesn't mean that other classes don't have issues with viability and diversity in crucible, but it's easy to conflate those two statistics and make assumptions that aren't necessarily true.
Thing is, if a handcannon and a pulse rifle or auto rifle or whatever are equal in viability, people will still gravitate towards HC for the playstyle and cool factor. Usage and all that isn't everything when you don't consider all variables. Weapons have to be considerably stronger than HC's to edge them out in usage.
Great discussion in this vid as always, TV. My feeling is that no matter how many hunter options you have, you are at a disadvantage playing on hunter no matter what subclass you pick vs. well and bubble. Hoping the super changes go a long way to bringing things more in line which could then open up more viability and variety in warlock and titan options.
I think the Igneous/Conditional is the most OP combination in all of PvP. 120s have better range and damage than 140s and that's exacerbated with Igneous having an adept for stat mods with its stat package being bigger than every other 120 in the game. Igneous covers range better with higher damage to push its range further than a 140, not including the amount of A-tier and above perk combinations you can roll. Conditional being great for shutting down supers like bubble and well makes it one of the best shotguns alongside Matador and it sits in the kinetic slot. The whole build is great for everything from dueling to close quarters and its so potent you might as well run nothing else but this. While Bungie is addressing stats of the other 120s, that won't change a thing with Igneous being the best handcannon in the PvP sandbox.
I don’t think some of the subclasses for Titan and Warlock are bad. It’s just that Well and Bubble are so insanely strong for 3s that you are throwing if you don’t use them. They are practically guaranteed round wins with the fastest cooldowns. Nerfing them would open up the other subclasses to see more play
I agree, except that now blade barrage and tether have the same cooldown as bubble and well. So if bubble and well cooldowns are nerfed, no one would play anything but hunter because supers are almost guaranteed rounds, especially when no one else has one yet.
Lmao solar titan is trash
The other subclasses are in fact just bad though, especially in 3v3. At least on warlock...
@@robertpalmer8080 wym? Arc void and stasis are goated on lock
Hand cannons are stylish and have a high skill ceiling with movement. Punishing if you don’t hit all headshots but very rewarding if you do. I haven’t taken thorn off since the catalyst
I'm so sick of Conditional Finality. Anytime I see it I feel like my eyes are going to roll out of my skull.
bro no matter what you post if I find it I watch it love your stuff
sidearms for LIFE!!!
First you are in no way a C tier RUclipsr. You're one of my go-to Destiny folks, end of story.
As for the meta - let's say as a solo Warlock player reaching his 50th tier around the sun who's been told to 'never touch PVP again' and 'delete their account and uninstall the game' I can't say I've ever enjoyed the meta in any 3v3 arena. I'm literally one of those guys who can only play 3 hours a night thanks to my schedule and being told the way to be successful is (1) Use weapons I don't vibe with (2) Play another class entirely and (3) Raid so I can get Conditional Finality makes getting the (really nice) PVE solo loot in trials about as enjoyable as a colonoscopy without the anesthetic.
Honestly, it's your passion for PVP that keeps me coming back, following your advice as best as my old man body can, and trying something new.
Thank you for this one, TV. It’s nice to see the stats back up what is actually felt in the game. As a warlock main it frustrated me so to hear people complain about Ophidians.. when the warlock only has limited exotic PvP options compared to the other classes. Even with the disparity, the game has been a lot of fun to play lately.
Big Like on this video.
It's important to remember that that cauldron weekend it was also when the sun oner was dropping so a lot of people trying out rolls, same with this weekend igneous was always gonna be huge because you get a new drop and you try it out in the next game
Weapon wise I don’t mind the meta, so long as the weapons are not too oppressive; I’ll still use what I like using regardless of it being meta or not. I do wish warlocks got some love in the subclass and exotic armor department
I’ll just say this… I do not like hand cannon shotgun metas, but that’s coming from a controller player who is average at best. Scouts and pulses are my favorite to play, and when the majority of players are super aggressive, I can’t stand a chance. Then if I try using hand cannons or shotguns, I have a hard time managing peak shooting because I get out-strafed every time. I don’t know if the because I’m on controller, but it is very frustrating. Shotguns are a whole other beast. For whatever reason, whenever I use a shotgun, it feels like the shots miss entirely more often then not even though I’m on target. It could be down to playing controller again, but that doesn’t make it any less frustrating. I’ve watched many RUclips videos to try and improve, and it just feels like I haven’t been able to get much better. I think it comes down to matchmaking, but I could be wrong. I’d just think that, consistently playing since house of wolves, I should be able to compete in PvP fairly well. PvP has potential to be fun, but it’s much less fun when you’re either being carried or getting stomped in most of your matches.
Also a controller player here. I feel you, I used to be pretty decent on D1 and D2 but since crossplay was introduced the PvP just doesn't feel the same on controller. I can't spin fast enough, head tracking is harder and no way I can outstrafe a mouse and keyboard player. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing in slow motion. I just decided to pretty much stop playing PvP, which is a shame cos it was good.
@@Ko12395 FR though😅
Nah it's likely you.
@@Ko12395do you play on PC or console? If you play on console and don't specitically play with PC friends you will never play against PC players.
This is a tale of two visions because to you it looks like warlocks don't have options but to me it just looks like warlocks are only willing to use their "best" options while hunters are more likely, probably due simply to having a larger player population, to try "off-meta" options
Hand Canons are the lightsabers of Destiny.. They just feel cool to use and feel amazing. As long as HC's can hang a lot of people will use them. Also I had my most successful runs this weekend when I switched off HC shotty to SMG/Pulse so just because it's used a lot doesn't mean it was the most effective
I think that the reason a lot of people are fine with hand cannons being the meta is because the gameplay doesn't necessarily shift around them.
Handcannons are playable in almost any scenario, so when they're at their best, playstyles don't really have to change around them.
Meanwhile, if smg's are at the top, you need to play your distance, and if pulses or scouts are at the top, lanes are death sentences.
The funny thing is that, despite them solidly being at the top, I think that most weapon types have at least one thing that they do better than handcannons. It's just a matter of adaptability. If you have a handcannon, playing your cards right will win you a fight against almost any other weapon type, because you have the option to use that hc in a position where the opponents weapon is worse off than yours.
As for the subclass usage rates, I do personally believe that every subclass can compete, with the exception of maybe a couple that are in a REALLY bad spot, but the reason that other classes are so much less spread out than hunters is probably just because under the current ruleset solar warlock and void titan are incredibly oppressive. To the degree that if you're on one of those classes and not running that setup, a lot of people would consider it as throwing.
Hunters don't have that problem because they don't have that one subclass that is so much better than the rest that it doesn't feel like there's any other option. I suspect that when well and bubble get reigned in with final shape we're gonna see those numbers spread out a bit more. At least, I'd hope so.
Another reason that hunter is so popular, especially on a map like that. Where there's different levels, different lines of sight, different angle it's a lot easier to get to those angles with the hunter jump in their movement in general than it is with a warlock or Titan jump while still trying to shoot in midair
Bold of you to assume I ever liked trials . I like it more than the days of 90% of kills being from a shotgun/ one hit ability though
The reason Hunter numbers are so high is dodging is better to break your opponents aim than a barrier or a rift. Not getting hit is better than trying to block or heal through the damage at all skill levels.
They also happen to be the only ones able to do that vertically. If you break line of sight, and they don't, you win.
Hunter jump is also far more OP than people are willing to talk about. Neither of the other class's jumps can be used as an evasion tool. Hunter jump is essentially a vertical dodge with no cooldown. It is absolutely a huge part of the reason Hunter is picked 50% MORE than the other classes in trials and no one is even discussing it.
Not to mention Dodge itself. Neither of the other class abilities extend an active engagement. Dodge creates a get out of jail free card in many situations outside of one-shot kills. If you want to kill a Hunter, you often have to kill them twice. The first time - then they get to reset that would-be death with their panic button - and try again.
Though it's probably not worth all the complaining. It's been 10 years. Bungie isn't fixing it.
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger I will rock a Hunter dodge in PvP and a Titan barricade in PvE come Destiny 3. Also just wanted to put this out there because people don’t talk about it as “obvious”
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger Although I somewhat agree with you. You can't tell me void barricade doesn't completely out-shine every other class's ability. It's the single strongest class ability in the game for both PVP and PVE. There's no denying the hunter jump is the strongest jump ability in the game. It's so good, and between triple/strafe jump it can be tricky for people to re-acquire LOS on a hunter compared to warlock/titan. And while dodge is a good safety tool. A pre-emptive rift/void barricade is far far far harder to duel against than any hunter dodge. If you don't have under-over on your gun, and both you, and them land every shot perfectly. The hunter will lose 100% of the time. The hunter is the best at avoiding hits, but Warlock/Titan have defensive abilities that let them get hit WAY more.
@@BarderBetterFasterStronger Also, hunters also have the single worst main stat in the game, and they're the only class that needs to pay attention to all 3 in PVP. Low res is a death sentence, and low recovery will keep you out of fights way longer than any warlock/titan since they can max out both stats, and still have well balanced secondary stats.
I don’t understand why Bungie thinks I wanna do Trials carries in solos. I know we all get the bad teammates sometimes but Jeez…I CONSTANTLY, more times than not, get 0.3s to 0.8s on my team while the other team is crazy stacked. I hate sbmm but I hate this too. I don’t mind having bad players on my team as long as the other team also has bad players. The balancing is nonexistent.
Okay, so what's the solution then? You say you hate SBMM but you also hate getting matched with random players, so how do you want it? You just want to be the best player on your team while the other team also has one good player so you two can duel while the lower skill players play amongst themselves? Strawmaning here a little, obviously, but I hope you see my point.
@@dahSweepJust let the man vent his frustration. I’ve been experiencing similar things as him and yes, it gets old very quick.
@@dahSweep you hope I see your point while you completely miss mine. You realize sbmm and team balance aren’t the same thing right?
@@dahSweep I want to not be able to predict with 99% guarantee who is going to be on my team. First thing would be bringing freelance back.
I think one of the reasons hunters have more diversity is they don't have a lockdown support super. If they had something like well or bubble that's all you'd see. On the flip side, if supers weren't a thing in trials you'd see people using other classes for the play-making neutral game.
If supers weren't available arc would be a top choice because of the many ability Regen fragments, also for some reason bungie can't make innovative warlock exotics as a whole especially for pvp just look at the new chest peace for final shape
Invis hunter with radar booster on weapons in solos. Is insane flank of radar and use wormhuak or fortifet
Your content is s tier you keep shit real and honest keep it up
You really gonna do ToadSmoothie like that
People complain about dawnblade but the reason you see it so often is because of how mid the other warlock subclasses are. In this sandbox, either you have to have a highly mobile setup or have some sort of heal/overshield/ability spam (which is why osiomancy is good). I think a lot of it could be solved if healing and empowering rifts got a buff to their animation speed so its easier to heal mid fight instead of becoming ape bait every time. Solar is the only subclass that doesn't have an aspect tied to the rift, so I think this would naturally help bring the other subclasses up a bit in terms of usage
Hey can't say enought how much you are one of the only RUclipsrs I enjoy watching. Keep it up TV, I appreciate you and I know a lot of other people do too. Imma keep showing up!
Also! Thoughts. Brief. I think pulses are still viable, lightweights feel great, heavier frames like messenger or elsies are still pulling weight. The problem is igneous. The same as the problem with bows was monarch. Bungie doesn't understand that certain weapons are just oppressive because of their stats or traits... which is... odd? I don't know how you see igneous hammers doing this and think "its a handcannon issue".
Ok I lied not brief. But for warlocks I agree completely. They don't know what to do with the class in PVP. They are confused so confused when ti comes to exotics in general as well.
One thing that I would love to hear your thoughts on is heavy ammo in PVP. I personally think it's the least fun mechanic currently. Out of all abilities or classes. Heavy ammo ruins more games for me. In 6's I think its abhorent that all members can pull. And in 3's I think it's annoying at best.
Very validating to hear this info! Many elite PvPers would have you believe that Solar warlock and Void Titan are the ONLY viable choices for PvP. Some would argue that Void titan and Solar Lock are so overpowered that their players won't use anything else, while claiming that Hunter doesn't have a place in the meta (copium).The hunter class has WAY more strong options for endgame PvP. That's why it's so popular.
(my thoughts on the sandbox as a reply to this in order to keep this comment short and sweet)
(ABILITY SANDBOX) Well and Bubble are oppressive by themselves. Strand hunter is so strong it might as well be the infinity gauntlet from Fortnite... Don't like strand hunter? Void hunter exploits the most important mechanic inPvP! (radar). Void hunter takes too much brain power? They can run blade barrage + athrys's embrace and get the cheeseist melee kills possible. None of those interest you? Revenant hunter can spam slow + damage boost weapons for faster ttk with Bakris. (not to mention revenant hunter super lasts 2 years, tracks, and traps people inside to kill them). The solar titan OHKO wave is comically cheesey and requires little skill to get multikills with.
(WEAPON, GEAR SANDBOX) Sidearms are low risk - high reward primaries that require much less skill than other close range options (due to very forgiving bodyshot ttk AND requiring less hits than SMGs) while being more lethal in close range than anything but specials (which have much higher cost to use due to ammo scarcity) Don't get me started on how broken Forerunner is lol. Stomp33s give hunters the best 'neutral game' in the crucible with ZERO drawback or cooldown. The flinch mechanic punishes players for using weapons that don't have high stability, allowing players with more accurate guns (easier to use) to barely need to aim, while weapons that are less stable (harder to use) are flinched onto a differnt map and ultimately unable to dependably hit shots. Snipers are not viable for a majority of MnK players; requiring you to either have elite MnK skill, use controller, or use a Xim. Hand cannons still lob melons at people.
Hunters running hand cannon/shotty. It's a pretty simple meta lol
Titans with bubble ??
I mean hunter handcannons and shotgun been meta for 10 years boring as heck imo.
@@davensuites
Meta for 10 years is just a wrong statement, especially since we just came out of a 4+ seasons of Peacekeepers SMG/Sniper meta
Now its meta, just used to be a solid option alot of good players enjoy. Like high impact pulses were much stronger and still are. @davensuites
Hunters are more skillful. Titans with bubbles and over shields are the problem. Weapons aren’t.
I completely agree w you on warlocks being underwhelming when it comes to playstyle choice
Don’t downplay yourself TV you’re one of my main destiny creators I watch and you’ve helped me improve in many aspects of the game even went flawless this weekend with briars cuz of you lol
It’s also sad with the special changes how snipers are rarely used anymore
Just goes to show you that only bad players crutched their free teamwipes with Cloudstrike 2 shots on spawn and had no real skill. So-called "sniper mains" all crutching shotgun now lmao
@@literallynobody1515 yeah I’d agree with you on that. Cloudstrike was so dumb getting multi kills for one snipe. I wish I could use mercurial / beloved more though now
I wanted to slap you like Edna did to Elastigirl when you called yourself a C-Tier creator. And like she said, "GET. YOURSELF. TOGETHER. YOU ARE TRUE VANGUARD!" Or at least I think that's the quote from the movie. lol You are one of the most informative and reasonable creators out there, especially in the D2 space. You never give a viewpoint on something without testing it out and comparing it to other options and you never give a take on the game that isn't well thought out understanding both sides of the argument. You think outside the box and learn how to make some "off-meta" builds work to perfection. Keep up the awesome work
we had the smg meta, then the auto meta and i thought it was meh not terrible, but i think the hand cannon meta is stale and like you said needs to be nerfed. however, i want all weapon types to be viable and good and have bungie let us have more competitive options
What kind of nerf would you propose? I’m not against one but I couldn’t think of a way they could weaken them without gutting them.
There shouldnt be a nerf. That's the issue. Nerf something then they buff something else and boom new meta new complaints.
It's Iggy that is meta, not handcannons as a whole. If anything, nerf Iggy and keep the rest the way it is
Fuck that , nerf summoner and autos , they are so easy and way too lethal
@@Sicruett You're right, but in my mind there are some potential nerf ideas that I would tell bungie to consider, aiming for a balance between toning them down and keeping them viable:
Option 1: Range Falloff Adjustments:
This wouldn't be a drastic nerf, but could make other weapon types more competitive in specific ranges. Bungie could slightly decrease the effective damage range of hand cannons, encouraging shotgunners to close the gap and pulse rifles to hold their ground at mid-range.
Option 2: Flinch Rebalance:
Flinch is the screen shake caused when taking damage. A slight increase in flinch from hand cannons could make it harder to land those precise follow-up shots, rewarding good aim from the opposing player.
Option 3: Archetype Tuning:
Not all hand cannons are created equal. Bungie could target specific archetypes (like the dominant 140 RPM ones) with adjustments to damage output, recoil patterns, or reload speeds. This allows them to address outliers without hurting all hand cannons.
I hope Bungie doesn't nerfs anything about handcannons I think they are not overpowerd at all especially because the 120 handcannons are the meta and they have a really slow time to kill with a full second. Those 120 handcannons are not that good on their own they are just that popular because they have a lot of range and are great at team-shooting just like the high impact pulse rifles you can do quite a lot of damage with those weapons with getting just one burst or bullet on an enemy team player and than have your teammates finishing up the kill with team shoots.
In terms of weapon balance when hand cannons make up the majority of kills it is usually split between 140 and 120s. Admittedly 120s are dominated by a singular weapon in the archetype but there are tons of competitive 140 hand cannons. However when we've seen other weapons with useage spikes like that its usually because of a singular archetype and usually because of 1 to 3 weapons in that archetype.
Worth keeping in mind when talking about these historical spikes.
Yooo that no scope!! Banger gameplay and takes as always TV.
I think part of the issue for subclasses is the super tiers. If I want to get a super in Trials as a Titan, I need to run bubble. I went flawless for my first time last weekend running Arc Titan (with Ace of Spades/Cartesian Coordinate), and in 30+ games I never got closer than 3/4 of a super bar. In previous weekends when I've run Void Titan, I routinely got my bubble and was able to steal rounds (or at least force counter supers). I like the Arc kit better, so I decided to just stick with that, but Void is definitely easier.
Personally I had a good time in trials this weekend with ability and special usage, still available but not constant. Felt like I needed to be more strategic with their usage. I had some good success with traveler's chosen, but most of my wins came with thorn or Luna. I think you definitely right about the class balancing though, and after now getting a decent adept igneous, it does feel like easy mode even if it is enjoyable.
Love you TV, you are always and S tier content creator! You always have fit content more aligned with my playstyle, so never feel like you're not good enough! P.S. love your views when in DCP, keep it up :)
I will say regarding warlock, stasis warlock is under used and has some good options other than ophidians and osmiomancy, stag getting your rift back and dropping a healing rift on death is great, balidores for frost armor/ stasis surge, but you are correct hunters have the most options for sure.
I enjoy sidearms and lightweight weapons(short range primaries) the most, I like to pair them with snipers.
And honestly, I feel like hand cannons/shotguns are the identity of Destiny PVP.
And I kinda like it, because it is more rewarding to close the gap against them compared to doing that against autos and pulses.
And it feels like they have their distinctive range, and easier to duel them.
The simple answer is handcannons are cool, and are very popular with most of the playerbase. When they are not very good, the request for buffs are always incredibly loud compared to literally any other weapon.
Really enjoyed this video, I run lucky pants last word Lunas and have been really enjoying this weeks trials. Went flawless first try, feels like a mid to close range map if you play the angles right. Titans can be annoying around tight angles, and warlocks floating at range. But that’s not bad, different classes should have different abilities. We have dodge, and technically more uptime of our melee with gamblers. But overall I’d say the meta doesn’t seem too bad except the overuse of igneous and (un)conditional combo lol. Seems a little strong especially when that’s the go to combo.
I've been tired of hand cannons being meta for years. I just don't find the style of play fun. It's just sliding around in and out of cover, jumping around everywhere, running away the second you take damage
I love playing other niche weapons/builds but I do think when the meta is handcannon its the most balanced. The auto and smg metas leaves no room to breathe and pulse and scouts is too slow. As a day 1 warlock, the discussion about exotics is eye opening and explains why I been thinking about switching my "main". I am craving more diverse builds at the high end pvp.
Problem is the matchmaking. If you’re a pretty good player and for whatever reason don’t go flawless within your first 3 cards, it’s a wrap. You’re gonna be playing 7-9 lighthouse games against 3 stacks.
As a SOLAR TITAN conditional / iggy main I love this meta. Hunters are so easy to dunk on. Game feels great right now to me, everyone is moving!!!
Been following for a while. It was an honor to match against you this morning. Never been happier to get 5-0’d lol. your vids have helped me get a lot better and gives us warlocks hope
I think handcannons will always be a favorite, and they don’t get nerfed frequently because require more skill to achieve optimal TTK than other options. I like using a bunch of stuff, don’t mind variety. And I think trials/PVP meta is fairly balanced in practice but slanted in terms of statistics
Well done. Very well put together.
True vanguard is the only RUclipsr I keep up with I work too much lol I love this guy
As someone who plays a lot of Shadebinder, I would like to say that Osmiomancy Gloves aren't always the best pick. They are good and pretty easy to use, but not always best. I use Transversives with Duskfields personally for consistency
All this to say that yeah no, even with Osmio that high up it still doesn't always compare to the other two
Agree big time on the warlock exotics. And they rolled back the stompee nerf when they have tons of options
As long as the game is aiming for even an inkling of a competitive state, the METAs will come and go. Players will flock to what is viable and easiest to master. This has been the Destiny way since the beginning of franchise. The problem is Bungie does not give room for other players to create their own unique METAs due to not improving the struggling and underutilized concepts that people want to use but dont because it does not hit the mark for being viable and powerful.
Everything you stated is spot on and I have been saying in the forums for years on and off.
Viability and Potency should go hand in hand.
A Warlock and Titan who can consume a grenade, melee and class ability could easier go a long way.
Supers need to be roaming, supportive and shutdown by default.
When they bring in new supers, all supers need to come with the same layout ie shutdown or defensive but different concept of play.
After being gone for over a year, i found it refreshing that the meta let almost all weapons shine. I have always been a handcannon main so you wont hear my complain much.
I agree with frost bolts recent tweets. Void overshield should be nerfed. It’s wild how it’s lasted this long. Any other game it would not be allowed
Wild how Hunter jump & dodge are still insanely crutch and Bungie refuses to acknowledge a nearly 2-1 class disparity
I would love to see Trials Report put out another "top end stats" report like they did a year or so back, showcasing what the spread on players that are winning 90%+ of their games while also playing 50+ games a weekend are using exclusively. There were some massive outliers in terms of what that group was using compared to the general meta last time, and I'd be curious to see if there were similar things. Particularly I remember Void Titan and Khepri's Sting being *way* more common than in the general population, as well as Behemoth (likely due to how well it could play in 3-stacks). Some of that has since been changed, but I'm curious if there are any similar discrepancies.
Part of me wonders, because while I was seeing a lot of Igneous this weekend, that wasn't the gun I was struggling to beat. It was stuff like Elsie's that was screwing me up, because a lot of the lanes on the new map are at ranges where even Igneous starts to run into the harsh hand cannon range fall off relative to things like pulses, scouts and autos that are a bit more forgiving past drop off. 'Cause sure, even baseline Igneous doesn't feel falloff till 35m, but it's fallen off *entirely* by 50, whereas Summoner might start at 25m baseline, it doesn't actually finish falling off till over 60m, and it's going from 25 damage to 15, not 88 to 29. It really does feel like a map where hand cannons *shouldn't* be performing as well as they are, but at some point if 60% of the players are using hand cannons, it's not surprising the account for a huge chunk of the kills, hence the kill count by weapon type is only a part of the story, and you need usage numbers to really see how well they're performing.
My problem is that any time a non handcannon meta appears the complaining and whinging starts immediately.
Immortal was hit with a range nerf a month after release. Shayuras had its zoom and range nerf 5 times. But yet Igneous hammer has had been on top longer then either of those two outliers. But you even suggest a nerf to Iggy o handcannons can the pitch forks come out in mass.
Shit is so old at this point it dont even matter
Because two were used by Titans and one is used by Hunters. Coincidence?
You completely lost me on this one, hand cannons are a skill based weapon. And ALL skill based weapons should be rewarded. Anyone can hold down the trigger with a auto rifle it's not difficult. Ppl would be rewarded for using more skill based weapons.
I think if the trials gamemode was changed then the Warlock and Titan subclass balance shifts completely. Defensive supers in a mode that practically gives a free win when used on a point makes the choice super obvious. Since the best Hunters have is a shut down to said defensive supers, theres a lot of good subclass choices. Or a Hunter can just forego a shutdown super in favor of better neutral play as is the case with Strand.
Conditional will go down in usage when there are other counters to bubble/well. Igneous is a different story, precision instrument just needs a nerf for it to be put in it's place. Tbh I preferred the immortal meta, over the scout/pulse/handcannon meta we've had since witch queen. It at least got titans to not barricade as frequently. Also, titans and warlocks don't have "just one good option". They're over tuned. In a 4-4 game bubble/well will auto win if nobody has conditional ammo. Nerf them and they'll more likely resemble the hunter split for subclass usage.
Hard agree on being able to counter hc’s, regardless of them being top dawgs. I always feel comfortable taking on just about any engagement w the combo of pulse/sidearm like you said yourself
Worst part about it is bubble and well. I find hand cannon metas fun as they reward good map control and can be outplayed by aggressive players with short ttk weapons if not peak shooting properly.
My only problem with igneous is that PI makes it able to 2 head 1 body any resil, but besides that I think it’s not that bad.
Conditional could use some tuning around how strong its stasis spread is and its handling but think it’ll fall off a little once bubble and well are nerfed enough.
Could also note that I think since adept and non adept are split and shiny and non shiny are split, that summoner, Elsie’s, messenger, lunas, likely all compete with ace of spades for that number 2 spot, so it’s not that unbalanced there imo. All that to say that I think other things are shining as well, just not to an extreme extent as entire archetypes. If PI is nerfed for 120’s and conditional is nerfed with bubble and well nerfs being enough I think we’ll see a relatively balanced meta.
I love when HCs are on top and I dont mind it at all. For some reason fighting anything else other than HCs just feels oppressive and a lot more than an issue
As for the video now that I have watched and grasped. It's important to note that alot of warlock exotics take effect mostly on a subclass, most of said subclasses have very little staying power in pvp. It's not exactly warlock exotics being bad in pvp, it's partly because alot of them don't promote any sort of benefiting effects on solar, the best warlock pvp class. When alot of the warlock exotics have basically little effect in pvp or you have to play a troubled subclass to use one, it's not very worth building into.
This just goes to show what Bungie really cares about. That is to keep Handcannons and Hunters on top. Handcannons are rarely nerfed and Hunters usually get overtuned Aspects. There's a reason why Strand Hunter is significantly higher than the other Strand Subclasses. Not only that but after nerfing Stompees to require a Class Ability or else they effectively don't have an Exotic, they applied the same nerf to Antaeus but reversed the nerf on Stompees. Anteaus was strong for sure and needed a nerf, but this seems unfair that the Class Ability nerf for Stompers was removed but not for Anteaus
The fact that every Titan and Warlock run the same subclass isn't the hunters fault. It's because Well and Bubble are simply overpowered in pvp, where zone control wins games.
Hunters have more of a spread because they don't have one specific thing that's way out of line.
Same thing goes for exotics. Who's fault is it that warlocks can't take off their snake gloves unless they are on freeze mode.
This right here - well and bubble are top tier SSS in dominion because they amount to almost automatic round wins.
If a raid boss can’t deal enough dps to overcome a well or bubble, how can a guardian? This is why finality and igneous are on top as well - finality offers a means to combat those supers, and igneous is a solar 120, making it compatible with finality and the artifact mods for radiant at the same time. If the map was smaller, you’d probably see more lunas on that list.
Further - it’s not a HC/shotty meta - it’s a finality meta, and igneous happens to be the objectively best weapon to pair with it.
They're strong but op? Idk man I take down bubbles all the time with and without conditional. Wells you can snipe them out. A huge reason is titans and warlocks have no other choice. All other subclasses suck for pvp for those characters.
@@thehashslaingingslasherI can't say they suck. Well at least on a titan. Arc titan is still strong in pvp especially in the 6s and strong in the 3s. Solar titan with some build craft is stoooopid strong. Precious scars plus heal clip plus kill clip is a STRONG combination. I don't want to sound mean but destiny 2 community goal is always to complain rather than find routes that can compete or counter the meta.
@jamaledwards8118 Precious scars is good for survivability and teamplay, but that's about it. You could run a KC weapon with one eyed mask and do better on void. For solid 3s options, you're kinda stuck on void, mostly for the overshields. Arc is still very good in 6s and in 3s if you really lean into getting up close with acds or synthos, but that usually ends up bad. Solar titan counters void titan extremely well, but you gotta lean into sunspots to really make it work. Outside of that, I see no reason to run solar. The problem is there's only 1 way to really run each subclass on Titan for pvp, and that's the part that sucks. It's just so limiting. That's why you don't really see those people out like that.
Hand cannons are fine when they’re the meta but 120s specifically where they can challenge every other weapon in the game is where it’s not fun and then paired with a shotgun you have absolutely everything you need. Shotguns being the only true reliable special weapon really sucks cause if I don’t run one then I feel like defending my myself from a titan ape is impossible. I much prefer to use GLs like truth teller or pardon and also use fusions here and there but the transmat system kinda limits those particular special weapons at least for GLs. The only time where the special ammo transmat feels good is limiting snipers so multiple sniper users on the enemy team feels less threatening and actually possible to go down a lane.
I think the current weapon meta is fine. It just gets tedious when fighting a lobby full of people whose default play style is "backpedal while spamming primary shots". As for subclasses, last year I accepted the fact that warlocks (my fav) are THE PvE class so they get little attention for PvP tuning. It would be nice to have more options for warlocks and titans, but I guess Bungie wants to give New Lights a more predictable Crucible experience, which is understandable.
0:43 Noice! Rev0 is a beast.
This is a dope video TV. I honestly hope Bungie sees this video.
Might seem like a really dumb question but as someone new to trials (im not paying for lightfall) can the summoner still random drop from an engram this trials?
My understanding is every 3 rank ups you get a powerful engram in which could be any weapon at random (inducing the summoner ?) but all other rank up engrams will only be a weapon you already own? is this correct?
Ive not reset my passage card thing as thinking this is the best way to get closer to ranking up to get those powerful engrams every 3 ranks and hopefully unlock summoner (if i can unlock it this week?)
Handcannons are the easiest to use weapons in the game, so I could stand to see a few unpopular weapons on top of the meta. I think both titans and warlocks could use some more subclass diversity, especially as a warlock main. And yes, the warlocks get the shaft when it comes to PvP exotics, and honestly exotics in general
Thank you for showing the percentages of sub class usage. Im not crying that hunters are OP, but titans and warlocks SEVERELY need some help. titans hardly have any good supers, only bubble or t crash and both have been nerfed a lot recently (bubble nerf coming in TFS)
I'm surprised Lunas howl is so low. I thought it would've been higher. People thought we would've been in an auto rifle meta with summoner but that really didn't last long.
I love your content tv keep up the great stuff
Kinda sucks that snipers were so dominant for so long, they get nerfed because they are too strong, and then we change the amount of ammo snipers get. The skill floor for snipers has risen dramatically, while shotguns have generally been fine, besides global changes like slide accuracy and AE.
My main problem rn is shotguns i feel like they’re panic buttons most of the time and with titans being so prevalent and them having so many ways to close gaps i see more and more titans just rushing like bulls
The trials meta is so good right now. Sidearms, conditional and chaperone probably need an adjustment but autos, HCs and pulses are all in a great spot balance wise.
Bro sidearms don’t even get used why you bully me?
@@TrueVanguard haha I just threw that in there because I knew you love them. Aside from chaperone and conditional though we’re in an amazing meta. I use mostly pulses (10k crucible kills on my bygones, excited for it to be usable again) and syncopation and chattering bone have been great this week!
@@TrueVanguard I don't think Bungie has ever nerfed sidearms and their usage rate don't warrant it, however sidearms are very good and if they ever get nerfed you will never be able to protect yourselfs against shotguns with sidearms, sidearms are great self defense from shotguns
I'd like to see Iggy taken down a bit and legendary shotties (mostly agg frame) brought up a notch. It isnt even really a HC+shotty meta. Its an Iggy+Conditional meta. And combined with Dominion it makes for incredibly boring games where everybody just takes potshots at each other until the zone comes in.
Subclass usage really shows the core issue. Well and Bubble are just instant win conditions as long as its about capturing a zone. If Hunters had a fast charging super that allowed near-immortality in a specific area they would 100% run that as well. I dont think the core problem is Warlocks/Titans having no other options, its that they have 1 option that is designed for standing in a zone.
Hmm The warlock exotic choice is a multifaceted issue and probably lies deeper than just “they don’t have enough choices” imo. Like most warlocks playing to go flawless are also hunter mains TBF. So switching between subclasses, it’s just easier to pick something that passively gives you a boost such as transversives and ophids if I had to guess.
Unpopular take on why hunters are dominant in pvp: hunter jump and class ability are far superior in pvp than warlock and titan, especially on one on one engagements. They have a lot of exotics that boost these abilities while warlock and titan have very few choices. I love the hunter class. It’s a lot of fun but having played all classes in pvp I definitely see the advantage. Maybe that’s just me , if you don’t agree that’s okay, I’m just an average PvP player. Much love TV I like seeing you do well brother 🤘
100% truth, Hunter jump + dodge are major OP crutches that nobody wants to admit
Only reason well/bub are used more is cus they are free wins with the super. when they are nerfed, other classes will be SOO viable all the sudden. Give hunter a super that caps a round to win trial games for existing in a match for 5 min and the numbers will shift immediately
(Keep in mind this is from someone who is, at best, slightly above average in pvp, so please save your "You're just a bad hunter" comments, I already know)
1. Regarding the near constant hand cannon meta, I think it's fine, particularly because of how hand cannons work and where the general aim for Bungie's balancing is, them being a hard hitting weapon that you can peak out of cover with is always going to be a major factor favoring them over other primaries. I think the only options to kick them out of that place would end in them feeling like shit for the more average player, which I assume is where Bungie's aim is.
2. For subclasses, I think warlocks and titans are just in a weird place where their best subclasses are really good, but the rest of them are below average. Warlocks in particular have, in my opinion, the singular best subclass in the game in Dawnblade, seriously it seems Bungie just loves this subclass and tries to give it literally everything, meanwhile their other subclasses are just subpar. Similar with titans and Defender but not as extreme, but overall things like Dawnblade along with Defender getting a free overshield just from placing a barricade make them feel annoying to play against and give the illusion of the whole class being busted. I personally think at least Dawnblade and maybe Defender should get a slight nerf, but all the rest of the warlock/titan subclasses should get some buffs to bring them up to par with the hunter subclasses. I also agree Arcstrider definitely needs something more for pvp, being a melee subclass when titans exist kinda sucks.
3. Don't really have much to say about exotics, I feel like the lack of viable warlock exotics could maybe be at least partially fixed by warlock subclasses being more balanced, since they have a lot more subclass specific exotics than titans or hunters.
Edit: back to number 2, something that I think is particularly missing for warlocks is viable supers, roaming ones in particular, since most of them have little to no range.
I think the problem mainly lies in the high end hand cannons being so much better than everything else, maybe iggy and rose need a touch to bring them down but I don’t think that all hand cannons are just op
Usage =/= strength. I think it’s important to consider that adaptive Handcannons are the benchmark at which Bungie balances the rest of the weapons around. Handcannons have between middle of the pack to the LONGEST ttk (depending on archetype) for weapons in the crucible. They’re a difficult weapon to balance too because you can’t just increase the ttk…that would make them completely unusable. Handcannons are also trading ttk AND range flexibility that autos and pulses have for burst damage and better aim assist in their optimal range.
Autos and pulses can often shred handcannon users with a better ttk. The reason Bungie nerfed autos is because autos were the superior choice using a TTK that beats out most weapons with a range that also competed against nearly all weapons.
Usage = strength in a tryhard mode where the only goal is to win at any cost. Nobody uses weak loadouts intentionally lol, what a cope
The weapon meta doesn't bother me too much. There really isn't any one combination that is so overwhelmingly dominant (think Lord of Wolves/Omni Meta or OG Lorenz Driver) that you have to use it if it's on the other team in order to have a chance... HOWEVER... I think that specifically Void Titan (not the super as much) but the Bastian Overshield is just so overwhelmingly dominant as a neutral game that it's just boring to play against. Especially if there are multiple on one team. Warlock doesn't have anything that bothers me right now except for the occasional lightning surge damage chaining off walls to insta kill you. Strand hunter is only annoying if the other person has some lag, which makes the game not able to catch up with the player. That's about it, thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
I tried to use my old bygones pulse and it just feels like the 3 round bursts don't land at the same time. Dueling hand cannons felt bad, we both need three trigger pulls but mines felt like it was taking too long to do damage and I lost. I do think everything should be viable so everyone can use what they like.
I have been a striker regardless of its meta status for about a decade now, and nothing gives me life like crushing Bubbles and Wells with Fist of Havoc
good thing that for the majority of the game's lifespan Arc Titan has been meta then isn't it?
@@iamsuperman10 Had to put that note in there fore someone gave me shit about striker this striker that, yk
Regarding your questions about hand cannons: I don't mind when people use them, I think a lot of players think they take a lot more skill to use then they do and they like to sit on a pedestal thinking they're the edgelord best pvp player ever. They get a ridiculous amount of AA compared to just about anything else, and the map sizes and current ranges make them mini-snipers right now especially igneous. But if people wanna use them and shotties, go for it. I will Dad-rifle-sidearm against them all day long.