Look around, we definitely got it wrong. HOWEVER, the Lord said HIS CHURCH would not fail. That's the one I'm involved with: fellowship with mature beleivers, meet each other in our homes, worship together, pray together, share meals together, confront if necessary, forgive often, encourage always. Everything else is man made.
Thank you so much, I have felt that home assembly is the most edifying meeting for me. I have gotten more out of Wed. Night bible study at church with 12 or so people rather than Sun. Meetings of 65 or 70 people.
I’m so glad someone is talking about this! I’ve been feeling this way for so long and feeling like the way we do church is exactly like you said-not edifying. The only time I get anything out of church is when we do small groups or meet in each others home with groups of believers who all contribute their gifts. Me and a small group of ladies meet every week online for Bible study and we all talk about what we read and input and fellowship. To me this is more church than sitting every week in a building and listening to someone give a sermon. I hope churches change their structure because I honestly Feel like this is why the younger generation is leaving the church. They aren’t going growing, they aren’t getting their questions answered, they aren’t becoming a community with anyone. People are falling away because it’s just not enough.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
I'm struggling in my "strong" evangelical church. I am much more edified at work (Christian School) among those I work closely with than at church. We used to lead nursing home ministry, and hosted Sunday afternoon lunch before we would go to the nursing homes. Since covid, that ministry has sadly died. "Fellowship" at church is no longer fellowship. Our church actually discourages small groups lest someone teach erroneous doctrine. Our spirits are withering. This has always agrivated me. But only just now that I realized how much this has negatively affected me.
@@oscarcat1231 Brother, The study I follow is through a group called First Fruits of Zion. It has a significant focus on the OT in addition to the NT. It considers the Bible one continuous story. Best wishes on your search and God Bless.
This is so spot on! I've been getting less out of the sunday morning performances and more anxious about not having that gathering. Sadly my circle either still (blindly) pushes on sunday mornings, or have left Jesus completely. This talk has stiffened my spine to make something wrong, right! All the best!
That's the sort of assembly i hunger for, sitting in a pew listening to the same guy in a pulpit eveey week then filing out saying hello to some in congregation then repeat the following week. Yes i stopped going as i learnt more on yt
Thus is so good , I was just talking about this the other day. I agree with Tom Wadsworth Today’s churches have adopted the ways of the world and mixed it with God ‘s Word according to the Bible. This has left the Church weak in power, and the people lacking knowledge and growth.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
We don’t have to be exact like the first century. When the Holy Spirit is envolved.. but I see the importance of all coming together to edify, share a word, a scripture a teaching including women. A song a psalm . Love one another encourage and share!
Kimberlyd7398 as long as you are meaning including women in the community absolutely but women can not lead in a position of authority over men scripture is very clear on that men lead the church but those men have to have specific qualities it is found in 1 Timothy 3 and also 1 Timothy 2 addresses things men and women have equal value in we were created in the image of God but we do not have equal roles God is very clear in his word Joyce Meyers is a false teacher she goes against scripture number one she is a pastor which is clearly not okay in the bible and number two she is part of the prosperity gospel that takes truth and twists it to be a false gospel I am not saying you were meaning that including women meant they could preach and lead in a church I was just clarifying that if that was what you meant scripture teaches otherwise
I just quit my church. The pastor is a little nasty about it. The reasons why is too many to list. I just found you - I will be listening to this YT because I want to be educated and I want to learn how to do home church. God knew I needed this. Praise God! 🙏✝️😁❤️👍
Hi brother Tom, I’m so glad someone like yourself has spoken out about this. I totally agree and I myself left the institutional church a couple years ago for these exact reasons. I’ve also noticed their is a system to keep dissatisfied members quiet. I’ve experienced gas lighting and severe ostracism. Even though I was a key member and leader in the church. The leaders made sermons on me once I left and I was called all the things as well. I plan on using your material to speak up about this as well on my RUclips channel! Thank you, I hope when my channel grows I will be able to interview you as well!
We were living in Europe for 9 years (including 4 years in England, early 1990’s & 5 years in Germany, mid 2000’s) and saw the results of what we may call organized religion and in some ways come to see or understand why the Pilgrims felt the need to leave England and come to America. In addition, what the first Thanksgiving meal may have really been all about.
Great conversation thankyou Tom , totally agree i've always been board with preaching but i do search out teaching i have a very enquring mind to know the TRUTH at all cost it is very important to me. The best place i have been is a home church gathering , but i do search out teaching. when i got saved i was a Catholic but soon left there, as it taught nothing of value ,to be able to know my HEAVINLY FATHER and a deep relation with my SAVIOUR YAHSHUA i am now 74 , there is a lot of mud to walk through ,but following Jesus HE leads us through Praise HIM .Thankyou David in Australia
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
@@CA_Watchmanare you saying that if for some reason believers were no longer able to go to a building, outside of their home, then they would be unable to know the Lord?
At my former church which was a megachurch when I left but a single location church when I started, the small groups were not focused around contextual bible study. So, it helped but without contextual bible study, it can become a lot of opinions.
A good resource to help understand how the "Church" ended up where it is today is a book titled "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna. Another is the RUclips channel "Selling Jesus" where they expose the elephant in the room of Western Christianity - the commercialization of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
My videos certainly have some similarities with Viola's book. But that book has some fundamental problems. I refer you to Ben Witherington, a qualified New Testament scholar, who has written three extensive negative reviews of the Pagan Christianity book. Part 1 is here: benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/06/pagan-christianty-by-george-barna-and.html. Part 2 is here: benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/07/pagan-christianityreview-part-two.html. Part 3 is here: benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/07/pagan-christianityreview-part-three.html. In my view, Witherington's criticisms are largely valid. Yet, even if only 40% of Viola's claims are true, the modern church needs to rethink the origins of its meeting practices, which I have attempted to do in my dissertation and my videos.
Yes, part of the problem is the definition of the Greek word ekklesia which many interpret to mean church. If we look at the Greek Septuagint, it means gathering so the word is misused in its modern context. Yes, we need to assemble in groups of 2 or more to support each other and to better worship God but it doesn't require a large building or a large professional clergy that is detached from the realities of the world because they don't work unlike the Apostle Paul, who supported his ministry through tent making.
Here is a related concept - how about the Passage in Mark 2:27 which says “the sabbath was made for man and NOT man for the Sabbath”. That flies in the face of what the typical church experience and expectation is. Sundays become another work day - o my instead of going to the corporate office, you had better show up on time for the corporate church. No sleeping in in a Sunday - worship and getting your “nose counted “ generally can start at 9:00 Am through 11:00 am. But there is the expectation of also attending Sunday School. So even if hointry to have a leisurely day of rest in the lord by showing up At the 11:00 service there is quickly the pressure to Show up earlier for coffee hour beteeen services and then Sunday school that happens at 9:00 or 9:30. And with getting dressed up and getting the kids ready and eating something before so you are not starved and thinking more about Cracker Barrel than the content - Sunday becomes just another work day and perhaps worse than a workday. And yet essentially every single So mine denomination seems to follow the same tired and worn out model. Can’t anyone have a church that starts at 1:00 pm or 2:00 pm? And why are we doing this again? Is the focus worshipping and putting on or attending a service / show or serving the organization on signed on to support. Where is the growth and life with God and one another? Where do you learn about and experience actual intimate life with God and other believers who believe from the heart. So - is there any reason what so ever to wonder why church. Umbers have been dwindling and why church was so utter feckless during Covid and why people are discovering they either don’t need church anymore? The church has become its own worst enemy. And once the churches were hallowed out from within, once there was no genuine fire and authentic faith that is being fed and replenished from within - it was easy to take down the churches with invading apostasy. The people were so weak and tired and the warriors were board and checked out or off fishing. Look at Europe and how they are a forerunner of the decay that is well underway in the American church. I hate to say it - but the church has gotten a lot wrong over decades - the entire model is nearly defunct. It is time to start something new. A new reformation of remnant believers who actually have the unwilling of the Holy Spirit who are the church. Rather than who go to church and put on worship experiences. Seeker friendly was also a horrible deception to get caught up in. It builds a body that is an inch thick and a mile wide. It glorifies the things of the world and prioritizes entettsinient and being winsome over the truths and the blessings of being a Christian. Why does the gospel need to be made more interesting and winsome and entertaining than it already is. If people aren’t captivstred by the truth and essence of the Lord than why do churches need to try to sell it so hard with all the trappings of the modern church. It’s like a three ringer circus and yet the people usually go home And back to life as usual. Where is the genuine transformation? And how did Jesus handle the spread of his message? He didn’t gussey it up and make it formal or fancy or hip or cool. He just sent it before the people and gave them a choice. I set before you blessings and curses, death and life - then he said choose life that you may live. And then / That’s it . Inaho to you to want what He is offering and invite him in, seek him personally - not get swept in by cool activities And loud worship music. That feels like coercion and manipulation. And if people don’t respond what did Jesus do - like the rich young ruler or even the prodigal son? He just let them walk away - to pleasing and begging or whining or Amping up the volume or the message. Either the person is ready and interested in personal transformation or not. Either they have the spirit inside and are Seeking to go deeper and share their own growth with other believers or they are not. Of course you made a huge point in the interview asking about how the church handles spiritual gifts and you saidnexactlynwhatnomjabe experienced for Decades . The church ignores and suppressed personal gifts at every turn (unless they figure out your personality can be tapped into in the realm of hospitality or giving or serving - they will magnify and exhaust (and eventually exhaust) anyone within the group that has those “Gifts”) But don’t even talk about drama and visions, or prophesy or eschatology, or healing - these need to be kept at The margins and hidden under a Bushel. . And to your point - I don’t want to be completely critical of pastors - they are just following the model and doing what seems to be expected of them. But I can confirm that most pastors are all about their programs and harnessing people than about hearing from The people And blocking and encouraging the gifts They the people themselves may have. They are ignoring the fact, as was stated in the interview, that each axtual believer should have Christ dwelling inside them and when they Squelch the individual atheists they are quenching the Spirit. And ultimately we arrive At Churches we See today with a form of Godliness but who lack the power of the Holy Spirit I want to be part of a smaller church or a home church possibly where the programs and expectations on everyone are way less. I am tired of church programs that seem more about harnessing the individuals then simply Helping them . I could give many examples of that . Programs where the obvious goal is to recruit more volunteers to serve the machine. There has got to be a solution and in another comment I can share what has worked for me .
Don’t forget 1Cor 14:32-33, “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” We are not to walk away with understandings that we want to believe, but be sure that our understandings align with the prophets, that is Scriptures.
@@ericstogner2222 ignoring Matthew 5:17-20 is where churches went off track imo. This was a power-play consolidated under Constantine, who worshiped Sol Invictus, 1700 years ago.
One of the reasons attendance is declining is that the errors taught by the certified theologians who got their "degrees" from the institutional church organizations are not able to be challenged or discussed. If any other than the accepted belief of what God's word says is brought forward that idea / person is roundly condemned w/o examining whether or not the scripture(s) under discussion are based on scripture or taught consensus. This is fear driven b/c they first reaction is that if they were wrong then maybe their faith in Jesus may be lessened. When in fact their faith is strengthened by increased knowledge of God's word. The current form of church attendance & sermon preaching does not allow for truly learning the scriptures. The people sense that the traditional teachings have a major problems, so they migrate from congregation to congregation trying to find a better teacher. The certified theologians become sensitive to their paychecks & are afraid to challenge the traditional teachings b/c they may offend and be fired. If a house assembly is composed of people coming together to study together, to edify together then that money aspect disappears, and truth of the scriptures becomes the focus.
In case you didnt consider this , you are conducting a church service right now from your house, im receiving it at my house, tom from his house is also apart of this congregation . How many people can no longer travel to say someone elses house for "worship" . I say that in jest from toms study which i find very interesting. Lord bless you guys, thanks for your inviting me in too your house today...
59:37 I don’t think the purpose of assembling together is to “make us better”, but to better enable us to reach people with the Gospel. After all, our life in the flesh is about saving SOULS.
Well no because the term used is to edify one another. It is surrendering to the Holy Spirit and He 'makes us better.' That is the goal because it is called sanctification in the Word, so yes.
@@maryrosehallowed6662 If you listen at the time stamp to what is being said, Dr Wadsworth is saying the purpose of edifying is to make us better. He always goes on to say that it is OK for us to each identify what is right. While we do have to make that decision, we are commanded to make that decision based on the prophets, as defined in 1Cor 14:32-33.
Making 'better' Witnesses/Disciples of JESUS; ~~~ MEANS Walking in TRUTH (And NOT 'Error') !!! ~~~ :) ~~~ “He that ‘S-A-I-T-H’ he abideth in Him Ought ‘himself’ also Walk, even ‘as’ He Walked.” ~ Apostle John ~ (1 John 2:6) ~~~ “For ‘M-A-N-Y’ Walk, Of whom I have told (Warned) you Often, And now tell you even Weeping, That they are the ‘E-N-E-M-I-E-S’ of the Cross of Christ !!!” ~ Apostle Paul ~ (Phil 3:18) ~~~ :o
My brother in law is a rastafarian, and over the holidays, I was explaining to everyone that the Church has been doing this thing we call church, all wrong. I went on to tell them that Jesus was the first to choose the Greek political word, "Ekklesia" to describe His Citizens of His Kingdom (that btw, is how I now refer to to myself, and not Christian), and that historically, Ekklesia in ancient Greek society were an assembly of the citizens, and all of them had the right to speak, and not just one man, as the church does today. He then replied to me, "Now that actually makes sense to me." My wife has been trying to reach him for years!
The question should be, have we got Jesus right. If you are wrong about Jesus, you are wrong about everything! Or, it doesn’t matter what you have right, if you are wrong about Jesus!!
Two practices of churches today are the focus on the giving of tithes and offerings and magnifying the role of the pastors in the church. The focus is to make the pastors and their families rich through extorting from members various kinds of offerings centering on the personal needs of the pastors.
I’ve heard of painting with a broad brush, but this is over the top. We exist to glorify God. The scenes in the book of revelations kind of sets the tone adequately.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
@@tomwadsworthI sure hope you focus in on 1Cor14:32-33, “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” We cannot choose our interpretation. We are subject to the Scriptures.
You guys are really onto the truth, that we need to talk about it together, o learn from you and likewise you could learn from me if you heard from me. My study is just this a conversation looking to be had...
Exactly. Everything that Jesus fulfilled and made obsolete, they want to reassemble everything back to the Old Testament system. When the Spirit is absent this is the result now. We need to get back to the real church meeting. The way to do it is to have all the chairs in a circle. Everyone is facing one another. No one is elevated. Each one has a contribution that includes the spiritual gifts as per 1 Cor. 14; 26. Yes, edifying is the key word, and in this verse we see the terms of 'each one' contributes, and at 'every meeting.' This was not the exception, this was the rule. The meeting is yielded to the Holy Spirit to lead. No program, no schedule, no script. The spontaneous element of it is there. Many are afraid of this but God will show up and it will be better than whatever man could have done instead. It should begin with praising God as it leads into the rest of it. One problem with the typical 'small groups' stemming out of churches is that the structure is the same, it is top-down, it is highly structured, there is no chance for everyone to share a spiritual gift or such, it is soliciting a scripted reply based on a study guide or some other material that someone else selected. It still won't work that way. Blessings to both of you!
The paid professional clergy (Priestly class) isn't going to give up their cushy jobs. It doesn't pay them to make disciples who will take their power influence and control.
As I'm here listening to this discussion, in particular the section on the worship anomaly, I'm left asking myself, "Why would God, the Holy Spirit, who lives within me, lead me to worship God, externally?" Is not our union, the original intent of God, from the time of creation, so that God and mankind would be in continuous fellowship? That was Jesus' mission, to get Holy Spirt back into man, and His greatest work, and the Gospel, in my opinion, was when He gathered the Apostles, and said, while blowing unto each of them, and ultimately all who become Believers, "Receive the Holy Spirit", the very thing He did when He breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils after forming him from the dust of the ground. The prefix "re" means again, and the word "ceive" means to have, so what He's saying is, "Again have the Holy Spirit". So then, the question must be asked, "Why are we practicing worshiping?" Just my thoughts.
I first realized the problem in the church about 20 years ago, a church i often attended in between backslides, there was a rash of divorces, all kinds of sin. I too got divorced. Its as we had a curse in the church, even the pastors son divorced twice, and he is probably the most wonderful one of their family. My conclusuon is as Jesus said , you cant cant put new wine in the old wine skin, you lose both. So its rightly dividing to know where you stand, what is the outcome.
Dr Wadsworth, at the beginning of this year I have found myself being unable to make videos as I usually do with some regularity. This is NOT because I have nothing to say, in fact I'm somewhat overwhelmed with the most beautiful messages and spoilt for choice. I could literally, if I were a minister of a congregation, teach for months on just what I have received in one month. But, I have been burdened with the fact that the church (body of believers) are mostly being lost, not understanding the gospel of the Kingdom and will not be ready when our King (the Lord Yeshua haMoshiach, the groom) returns. I've been told that I should not judge the spiritual state of others, but it isn't my conclusion, it is what He said over and over in various parables. We are at a critical time where I believe the time is so short, and I do not know how to most effectively reach this audience whom I have this tremendous burden for. And there is my problem. It is easy to say, just do something, but I honestly feel overwhelmed with the magnitude of what needs to be done. I've commented on one of your other videos and expressed my great appreciation of your work. We came to similar conclusions from different approaches, and your view resounds with deep truth that has to be disseminated with utmost urgency. At least as a first priority. Even though it has been on my agenda as part of the messages I need to share, I want to ask if I can rather share a short video where I say this ☝🏻, and then link it to this video which clearly and concisely states the case (rather than duplicate your excellent work)? Please check my channel in case you have reservations. I would be most grateful to receive your confirmation and consent. In the meantime, please keep pushing this message. I believe that God might force the issue by sending intense persecution, which will force a return to the original pattern of meeting from house-to-house and true community. This might even be unavoidable. We know that the church flourishes under persecution, but at the least we need to install the foundational understanding for this shift and the coming promised revival (the late rain that will come just before the harvest). Well, as usual I've already said more than enough. Thank you again for your excellent work.
After listening to this. I’m impressed with the statements. I do believe in house churches in that they may be more edifying in building up between believers. But Jesus and the apostles were on different occasions in larger places as the upper room delivering sermons and teachings. And both ways were blessings because it is the word of God and his word is effective either in small groups or large. Although the discoveries are wordy based it doesn’t mean that church and worship are out of order. Even though some seem to approve this. Many still appreciate the sermons and worship in the churches. Not all churches are in decline mode many are thriving and are healthy. Just as house gatherings. What disturbs me in this talk is that we make presumptions to divide and encourage divisions why work for the devil? Will this be any better? What impression will this attitude cause for the loss around us hearing such things. House meeting and church are both good and they have both their purposes.
Tom mentioned 1st Corinthians 14, one verse in particular spoke to me as to the message Paul had was in verse 26 where he says why is it when you come together everyone has a revelation or a psalms and interpretation, then he Saud count this for edification. To me Paul was saying shut about those things of the old, because I'm giving you the new, the gospel. He was bringing the church to faith and his message supersedes the old and it fulfills the old. Just as in Jesus ministry the two mentions of the greatest faith was from two gentiles that were not under the law. They had merely heard about Jesus. It's like the law kills the faith, and Paul says the law is the ministry of death and condemnation, he's not putting down the law in fact I believe he says the law is good it's just not good for man. Which leads back to the tithe is law.
This guy Allan is just soaking up this teaching like he has found the elixir of life, or maybe more appropriately "springs of living water", and he is drinking deeply after years of dehydration from wandering in the desert called the church!
Great conversation, i got a question 2nd Corinthians 8;14,15 does the present church reflect that we honor pauls words, i would say that it has not been practiced. I talked about this over and over in my blog untill one day i happened upon scrioture i believe exodus 12;18, that might be wrong i dont have my bible next to me right now but paul is quoting phrases that pertain to the exodus, that should say so much, it does to my study , my study says that 2nd Corinthians thru Thessalonians is the harvest of the church in advance. The harvest is the exodus. Anyhow im commenting as i listen, i didnt know tom would mention 1st Corinthians 14;26 . Very thought provoking converstation .
I think the crux of the issue with modern churches is the idea that “building up” one another means to bolster or stroke the ego to make people feel good about themselves so that they “feel” encouraged. The reality is, true edification looks more like discipleship that ACTUALLY facilitates and encourages people in their journey to proclaim the Gospel. Having the reading and expositing of scripture be the primary focus of meeting together. Learning scripture in its original context rather than using bits of it here and there to pad a pep talk. We would have a better idea of who is really interested in following Christ if we hit the pause button on the frivolous amenities associated with churches for 12 weeks and simply read Jesus’s actual teachings. I would imagine the people who are there to be entertained will leave and those who are there to be discipled will actually find it more edifying than the cinematic productions services have become. Pastors have become more concerned with head counts than discipleship. The idea of seeing false converts evaporate leaving only a small handful of people behind terrifies them.
Can you please share your understanding about the role of women in the 1 Corinthians 14 gathering? Scripture seems quite clear about them staying silent, and I wonder that many churches neglect the passage because they would then need to resolve this issue at the same time?
Well no, women are not to stay silent. We all have spiritual gifts and are all called to use them. The Bible says there is no male or female. The Bible even says WHEN women prophesy they are to have a head covering on. It does seem like a contradiction but many take this to mean that women cannot be pastors, or in that sort of role of 'authority' in an overseer sense. I have even read somewhere that the 'be silent' part used to be in a footnote and they slipped it into the Bible. Don't think that doesn't happen, they try to dance things in and out of the footnotes when convenient, just like they try to dance out Acts 8; 37 because it refutes infant baptism. Anyway I don't know what their thinking is but why not 'err' in the other direction then? The reason is because this model suits them better for their power structure/business empire.
Where two or three are gathered together in my name I am there in the midst of them (Jesus). It seems organized religion has become a spectator event or show with actors on a stage performing and the spectators sitting and simply observing the show with little to no participation or preparation.
I wish you would have mentioned women being aloud to share in th gathering also. Corinthians teaches in that day as to the way their head must be covered . And they cld pray too in the assembly
Sadly history has taught us that the church has never been more vibrant more impacting in the world than when it is in persecution and distress. Perhaps, that might be what it will take for the church to reclaim its first century concept of the small church setting. I have noticed that many churches have adopted the home cell concept, but it has been my feeling and conviction that, try as you may as long as that church building is standing, no matter how many home cells you got going on, its really not the same. They didn't have the comfort nor the support of the big building corporate concept to rely on. In other words, they did not a corporate office that sat over a corporate gathering of people, dictating its movement and function..
The beginning of state recognition of Christianity in Italy shifted power from the office of the apostle/missionary and the office of the prophet, into the hands of the bishop/pastor. There is a five fold ministry of: Apostle Prophet Evangelist Pastor Teacher Recognizing of course that the office of the prophet in the New Testament is not exactly the same as in the Old Testament. And concerning apostles, there is a general meaning concerning those who can be trusted to be sent out to form new communities without falling into moral temptation. With the focus resting on the bishop, the anointing of the apostle and prophet was bound. In the future, as Christianity unites around the words of the returning lord, who comes in the capacity of the third Adam, the five fold ministry will be replaced by the true family structure ushered in by the Second Advent.
Maybe we should ask the questions what would have happened if Adam and Eve had obeyed God’s instructions. After all, it is God who wanted them to obey. What was in God’s mind for their relationship with Him? Would it be a public building and prescribed times to gather with formulaic worship accompanied by music and gestures? We know you can be induced to bow, or you can fall to your knees if you are really in the presence of God because of your heart. I think it’s safe to say God wants the later example. Then what would have been the result of Adam and Eve not having required Jesus to be the Second Adam who overcame Satan’s temptation, that the first Adam could not? Answer: Grand Big Familyism. In that case, of course there would have been no archangel with a legitimate right to accuse man. Any problem of a sensitive emotional nature therefore would generally have been solved in the family. The earth is supposed to be an extended family, and there is nothing superior to being able to realize that the Creator of the universe is your very own father as well as your parents, siblings and extended family across the earth’s Father. In this context, gathering probably should be done like the government is supposed to do, to solve problems as we fix this world. Government as an apparatus needs the direction from the values of God’s children. Then why are not Christians running the major social systems? One reason is that they have not availed themselves of the merit of the Completed Testament Age. Such was a similar thing when the chosen people didn’t hearken to the Messianic thought of Jesus.
51:40 The talents, wisdom, and insights in “these folks” are only worth, to what extent, how well they align with the prophets. 1Cor14:32-33, “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” We cannot choose our interpretation. We are subject to the Scriptures. If this movement does not align with Scriptures, this movement will be part of the apostasy, not the edification. Gal 6:6 applies here: “Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.”
@@maryrosehallowed6662 I am hearing that each person’s own perspective is of value. That is not the standard, but what the prophets have written is the standard that aligns with the Bible.
I wish you would have mentioned women being aloud to share in th gathering also. Corinthians teaches in that day as to the way their head must be covered . And they cld pray too in the assembly and mature believers in a small gathering do not need pastors in charge .
Jesus warned us that the path that leads to Life is difficult and that few will find it. It never occurred to me that stepping off the Jesus-flavored part of the broad path is selfish. I have grown to recognize cultural Christians. They don’t want to hear about what local gatherings are supposed to be about because it doesn’t serve them; it serves God. They don’t want genuine Bible studies, they want to be entertained by the Lost Ladies of LifeWay bookstore. I don’t think it’s possible to change the model from inside the beast but maybe if we open our homes to people willing to hear God’s Word, He can change the model.
The constant use of the filler word "right?" was so distracting, I almost had to go find a different interview of the guest. Sorry, just constructive criticism. There are so many more expedient vocabulary words to choose from.
Cori thians, along with 11 other books, is written by who? A false apostle! There were only 12 apostles! NOT 13! Also, we need to stop calling a building made by man of stones and bricks. JEHOVAH'S CHURCH is NOT LOSING PEOPLE! JEHOVAH'S CHURCH IS NOT IN PANIC MODE! JEHOVAH IS NOT PANICKING! HIS PEOPLE ARE BLESSED AND JUST FINE. YOU CONNECT WITH YESHUA THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT! HOW MANY BUILDINGS DID THE 12 APOSTLES BUILD?.ABSOLUTELY ZERO!
Dr. Wadsworth, i invite you to see the LDS services. I know if you give it a deep dive you will be very impressed. (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) ❤
Hebrews 10:25 has nothing to do with church attendance. The word interpreted as “assembling together” is a noun, not a verb. It was a reference to leaving the body of Christ to go back to Judaism. Church attendance was not the problem being addressed in Hebrews, walking away from Christianity to return to a defunct covenant that had already been fulfilled was the problem. Verse 23 is about not losing faith, verse 24 is about encouraging people to continue in the faith, verse 25 is a reference to people who have already abandoned the faith and verse 26/27 describe the consequences of abandoning the faith.
Stop this nonsense. Ephesians 3:21; Matthew 16:16-20. 28:18-20. It seems someone has to find a new way to promote some novel idea that has been missed by the elect of God guided by the word and Holy Spirit. John 17 says the opposite. Has Jesus failed ? Apparently He has. Social media has made us all mad. The flesh, pride, and social media are doing far more evil than good. God is giving this age over to great delusion, confusion, and leading this world into that final judgment. Revelation 6:12-17; 20:11-15 are fast approaching! When Jesus returns in glory, will he find faith upon the earth? Many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 7:13,14; 22:1-14; 25:1-13; Luke 13:22-30. The real question is, who is preaching the faithful gospel today? Does absolute and ultimate biblical truth reign among those who profess Christ? This kind of thinking leads us away from what true salvation really is. If we get salvation right true and proper worship follows! John 17:17.
He's not saying you can't worship properly at a christian building, he's saying that's not how they did it back then. It was about fellowship and making disciples.
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Look around, we definitely got it wrong. HOWEVER, the Lord said HIS CHURCH would not fail. That's the one I'm involved with: fellowship with mature beleivers, meet each other in our homes, worship together, pray together, share meals together, confront if necessary, forgive often, encourage always. Everything else is man made.
What's the gathering name?
What do you mean by worship? 🤔
Thank you so much, I have felt that home assembly is the most edifying meeting for me. I have gotten more out of Wed. Night bible study at church with 12 or so people rather than Sun. Meetings of 65 or 70 people.
Thank you for the message Tom, my understanding is" Mortals want to build a top-down system, but Elohim wants to build a family".
I’m so glad someone is talking about this! I’ve been feeling this way for so long and feeling like the way we do church is exactly like you said-not edifying. The only time I get anything out of church is when we do small groups or meet in each others home with groups of believers who all contribute their gifts. Me and a small group of ladies meet every week online for Bible study and we all talk about what we read and input and fellowship. To me this is more church than sitting every week in a building and listening to someone give a sermon. I hope churches change their structure because I honestly
Feel like this is why the younger generation is leaving the church. They aren’t going growing, they aren’t getting their questions answered, they aren’t becoming a community with anyone. People are falling away because it’s just not enough.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
I'm struggling in my "strong" evangelical church. I am much more edified at work (Christian School) among those I work closely with than at church. We used to lead nursing home ministry, and hosted Sunday afternoon lunch before we would go to the nursing homes. Since covid, that ministry has sadly died. "Fellowship" at church is no longer fellowship. Our church actually discourages small groups lest someone teach erroneous doctrine. Our spirits are withering. This has always agrivated me. But only just now that I realized how much this has negatively affected me.
Stopped going to Sunday church 6 mos ago. I go to 3 bible studies on Tuesday Wednesday & Thursday.
My biblical literacy in going up ! 🙏
Agreed, I learned more in my last 4 years of home Bible study than the previous 50 years of church.
Are those Bible studies linked to a church? I’d like to do the same
@@oscarcat1231 Brother, The study I follow is through a group called First Fruits of Zion. It has a significant focus on the OT in addition to the NT. It considers the Bible one continuous story. Best wishes on your search and God Bless.
@@WTHenry2023 thanks for your response. I’m a sister, 🙏
@@oscarcat1231 Blessings Sister
This is so spot on! I've been getting less out of the sunday morning performances and more anxious about not having that gathering. Sadly my circle either still (blindly) pushes on sunday mornings, or have left Jesus completely. This talk has stiffened my spine to make something wrong, right! All the best!
That's the sort of assembly i hunger for, sitting in a pew listening to the same guy in a pulpit eveey week then filing out saying hello to some in congregation then repeat the following week. Yes i stopped going as i learnt more on yt
Thus is so good , I was just talking about this the other day. I agree with Tom Wadsworth Today’s churches have adopted the ways of the world and mixed it with God ‘s Word according to the Bible. This has left the Church weak in power, and the people lacking knowledge and growth.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
We don’t have to be exact like the first century. When the Holy Spirit is envolved.. but I see the importance of all coming together to edify, share a word, a scripture a teaching including women. A song a psalm . Love one another encourage and share!
Kimberlyd7398 as long as you are meaning including women in the community absolutely but women can not lead in a position of authority over men scripture is very clear on that men lead the church but those men have to have specific qualities it is found in 1 Timothy 3 and also 1 Timothy 2 addresses things men and women have equal value in we were created in the image of God but we do not have equal roles God is very clear in his word Joyce Meyers is a false teacher she goes against scripture number one she is a pastor which is clearly not okay in the bible and number two she is part of the prosperity gospel that takes truth and twists it to be a false gospel I am not saying you were meaning that including women meant they could preach and lead in a church I was just clarifying that if that was what you meant scripture teaches otherwise
I just quit my church. The pastor is a little nasty about it. The reasons why is too many to list. I just found you - I will be listening to this YT because I want to be educated and I want to learn how to do home church. God knew I needed this. Praise God! 🙏✝️😁❤️👍
Hi brother Tom, I’m so glad someone like yourself has spoken out about this. I totally agree and I myself left the institutional church a couple years ago for these exact reasons. I’ve also noticed their is a system to keep dissatisfied members quiet. I’ve experienced gas lighting and severe ostracism. Even though I was a key member and leader in the church. The leaders made sermons on me once I left and I was called all the things as well. I plan on using your material to speak up about this as well on my RUclips channel! Thank you, I hope when my channel grows I will be able to interview you as well!
Stop feeling obligated to go to church buildings...that would be a healthy start.
We were living in Europe for 9 years (including 4 years in England, early 1990’s & 5 years in Germany, mid 2000’s) and saw the results of what we may call organized religion and in some ways come to see or understand why the Pilgrims felt the need to leave England and come to America. In addition, what the first Thanksgiving meal may have really been all about.
It was a pleasure Dr. Tom. I look forward to future conversations! Blessings.
Great conversation thankyou Tom , totally agree i've always been board with preaching but i do search out teaching i have a very enquring mind to know the TRUTH at all cost it is very important to me. The best place i have been is a home church gathering , but i do search out teaching. when i got saved i was a Catholic but soon left there, as it taught nothing of value ,to be able to know my HEAVINLY FATHER and a deep relation with my SAVIOUR YAHSHUA i am now 74 , there is a lot of mud to walk through ,but following Jesus HE leads us through Praise HIM .Thankyou David in Australia
I am watching from Mexico. Love your content, it resonates with me deeply. Blessings Dr. Tom
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
THIS IS CHURCH PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER TO KNOW OUR LORD MORE, HELP OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS ON THE WAY, AND GET THE GOSPEL OUT
On the way is outside the church building. I've found it difficult to find 'church' activities (visiting feeding helping) outside the building.
You can ‘know the Lord’ by reading and prayer at home. That’s not a primary reason.
@@CA_Watchmanare you saying that if for some reason believers were no longer able to go to a building, outside of their home, then they would be unable to know the Lord?
At my former church which was a megachurch when I left but a single location church when I started, the small groups were not focused around contextual bible study. So, it helped but without contextual bible study, it can become a lot of opinions.
A good resource to help understand how the "Church" ended up where it is today is a book titled "Pagan Christianity"
by Frank Viola and George Barna. Another is the RUclips channel "Selling Jesus" where they expose the elephant in the room of Western Christianity - the commercialization of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
My videos certainly have some similarities with Viola's book. But that book has some fundamental problems. I refer you to Ben Witherington, a qualified New Testament scholar, who has written three extensive negative reviews of the Pagan Christianity book.
Part 1 is here: benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/06/pagan-christianty-by-george-barna-and.html.
Part 2 is here: benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/07/pagan-christianityreview-part-two.html.
Part 3 is here: benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/07/pagan-christianityreview-part-three.html.
In my view, Witherington's criticisms are largely valid. Yet, even if only 40% of Viola's claims are true, the modern church needs to rethink the origins of its meeting practices, which I have attempted to do in my dissertation and my videos.
Good advice. I frequently cite this book.
Yes, part of the problem is the definition of the Greek word ekklesia which many interpret to mean church. If we look at the Greek Septuagint, it means gathering so the word is misused in its modern context. Yes, we need to assemble in groups of 2 or more to support each other and to better worship God but it doesn't require a large building or a large professional clergy that is detached from the realities of the world because they don't work unlike the Apostle Paul, who supported his ministry through tent making.
Here is a related concept - how about the Passage in Mark 2:27 which says “the sabbath was made for man and NOT man for the Sabbath”. That flies in the face of what the typical church experience and expectation is. Sundays become another work day - o my instead of going to the corporate office, you had better show up on time for the corporate church. No sleeping in in a Sunday - worship and getting your “nose counted “ generally can start at 9:00
Am through 11:00 am. But there is the expectation of also attending Sunday School. So even if hointry to have a leisurely day of rest in the lord by showing up
At the 11:00 service there is quickly the pressure to
Show up earlier for coffee hour beteeen services and then Sunday school that happens at 9:00 or 9:30. And with getting dressed up and getting the kids ready and eating something before so you are not starved and thinking more about Cracker Barrel than the content - Sunday becomes just another work day and perhaps worse than a workday.
And yet essentially every single
So mine denomination seems to follow the same tired and worn out model. Can’t anyone have a church that starts at 1:00 pm or 2:00 pm?
And why are we doing this again? Is the focus worshipping and putting on or attending a service / show or serving the organization on signed on to support.
Where is the growth and life with God and one another? Where do you learn about and experience actual intimate life with God and other believers who believe from the heart.
So - is there any reason what so ever to wonder why church. Umbers have been dwindling and why church was so utter feckless during Covid and why people are discovering they either don’t need church anymore? The church has become its own worst enemy. And once the churches were hallowed out from within, once there was no genuine fire and authentic faith that is being fed and replenished from within - it was easy to take down the churches with invading apostasy. The people were so weak and tired and the warriors were board and checked out or off fishing.
Look at Europe and how they are a forerunner of the decay that is well underway in the American church.
I hate to say it - but the church has gotten a lot wrong over decades - the entire model is nearly defunct. It is time to start something new. A new reformation of remnant believers who actually have the unwilling of the Holy Spirit who are the church. Rather than who go to church and put on worship experiences. Seeker friendly was also a horrible deception to get caught up in. It builds a body that is an inch thick and a mile wide. It glorifies the things of the world and prioritizes entettsinient and being winsome over the truths and the blessings of being a Christian. Why does the gospel need to be made more interesting and winsome and entertaining than it already is. If people aren’t captivstred by the truth and essence of the Lord than why do churches need to try to sell it so hard with all the trappings of the modern church. It’s like a three ringer circus and yet the people usually go home
And back to life as usual. Where is the genuine transformation?
And how did Jesus handle the spread of his message? He didn’t gussey it up and make it formal or fancy or hip or cool. He just sent it before the people and gave them a choice. I set before you blessings and curses, death and life - then he said choose life that you may live. And then /
That’s it . Inaho to you to want what
He is offering and invite him in, seek him personally - not get swept in by cool activities
And loud worship music. That feels like coercion and manipulation.
And if people don’t respond what did Jesus do - like the rich young ruler or even the prodigal son? He just let them walk away - to pleasing and begging or whining or Amping up the volume or the message. Either the person is ready and interested in personal transformation or not. Either they have the spirit inside and are
Seeking to go deeper and share their own growth with other believers or they are not.
Of course you made a huge point in the interview asking about how the church handles spiritual gifts and you saidnexactlynwhatnomjabe experienced for
Decades . The church ignores and suppressed personal gifts at every turn (unless they figure out your personality can be tapped into in the realm of hospitality or giving or serving - they will magnify and exhaust (and eventually exhaust) anyone within the group that has those
“Gifts”)
But don’t even talk about drama and visions, or prophesy or eschatology, or healing - these need to be kept at The margins and hidden under a
Bushel.
.
And to your point - I don’t want to be completely critical of pastors - they are just following the model and doing what seems to be expected of them. But I can confirm that most pastors are all about their programs and harnessing people than about hearing from
The people
And blocking and encouraging the gifts
They the people themselves may have. They are ignoring the fact, as was stated in the interview, that each axtual believer should have Christ dwelling inside them and when they
Squelch the individual atheists they are quenching the Spirit. And ultimately we arrive
At Churches we
See today with a form of
Godliness but who lack the power of the Holy Spirit
I want to be part of a smaller church or a home church possibly where the programs and expectations on everyone are way less.
I am tired of church programs that seem more about harnessing the individuals then simply Helping them . I could give many examples of that . Programs where the obvious goal is to recruit more volunteers to serve the machine.
There has got to be a solution and in another comment I can share what has worked for me .
Don’t forget 1Cor 14:32-33,
“And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
We are not to walk away with understandings that we want to believe, but be sure that our understandings align with the prophets, that is Scriptures.
@@ericstogner2222 ignoring Matthew 5:17-20 is where churches went off track imo. This was a power-play consolidated under Constantine, who worshiped Sol Invictus, 1700 years ago.
@@peterjennen99 Matthew 7:12 backs up your point. It lets us know the basis of all His teachings.
SPOT ON BLESSINGS FROM THE UK
Thank you!!!
One of the reasons attendance is declining is that the errors taught by the certified theologians who got their "degrees" from the institutional church organizations are not able to be challenged or discussed. If any other than the accepted belief of what God's word says is brought forward that idea / person is roundly condemned w/o examining whether or not the scripture(s) under discussion are based on scripture or taught consensus. This is fear driven b/c they first reaction is that if they were wrong then maybe their faith in Jesus may be lessened. When in fact their faith is strengthened by increased knowledge of God's word.
The current form of church attendance & sermon preaching does not allow for truly learning the scriptures. The people sense that the traditional teachings have a major problems, so they migrate from congregation to congregation trying to find a better teacher. The certified theologians become sensitive to their paychecks & are afraid to challenge the traditional teachings b/c they may offend and be fired. If a house assembly is composed of people coming together to study together, to edify together then that money aspect disappears, and truth of the scriptures becomes the focus.
Such a great interview!
In case you didnt consider this , you are conducting a church service right now from your house, im receiving it at my house, tom from his house is also apart of this congregation . How many people can no longer travel to say someone elses house for "worship" . I say that in jest from toms study which i find very interesting. Lord bless you guys, thanks for your inviting me in too your house today...
Thank you again.
59:37 I don’t think the purpose of assembling together is to “make us better”, but to better enable us to reach people with the Gospel. After all, our life in the flesh is about saving SOULS.
Well no because the term used is to edify one another. It is surrendering to the Holy Spirit and He 'makes us better.' That is the goal because it is called sanctification in the Word, so yes.
@@maryrosehallowed6662 If you listen at the time stamp to what is being said, Dr Wadsworth is saying the purpose of edifying is to make us better. He always goes on to say that it is OK for us to each identify what is right. While we do have to make that decision, we are commanded to make that decision based on the prophets, as defined in 1Cor 14:32-33.
Making 'better' Witnesses/Disciples of JESUS;
~~~
MEANS Walking in TRUTH (And NOT 'Error') !!!
~~~
:)
~~~
“He that ‘S-A-I-T-H’ he abideth in Him
Ought ‘himself’ also Walk, even ‘as’ He Walked.”
~ Apostle John ~
(1 John 2:6)
~~~
“For ‘M-A-N-Y’ Walk,
Of whom I have told (Warned) you Often,
And now tell you even Weeping,
That they are the ‘E-N-E-M-I-E-S’ of the Cross of Christ !!!”
~ Apostle Paul ~
(Phil 3:18)
~~~
:o
No flesh saves souls. Only Yah does.
My brother in law is a rastafarian, and over the holidays, I was explaining to everyone that the Church has been doing this thing we call church, all wrong. I went on to tell them that Jesus was the first to choose the Greek political word, "Ekklesia" to describe His Citizens of His Kingdom (that btw, is how I now refer to to myself, and not Christian), and that historically, Ekklesia in ancient Greek society were an assembly of the citizens, and all of them had the right to speak, and not just one man, as the church does today. He then replied to me, "Now that actually makes sense to me." My wife has been trying to reach him for years!
Tom i must correct you, you are in a house, right now, your in my house here in alabama , loud and clear. In fact your setting right next to me.
Very thought provoking. The only negative I have was that there at a minimum of 12 adds that popped up
The question should be, have we got Jesus right. If you are wrong about Jesus, you are wrong about everything! Or, it doesn’t matter what you have right, if you are wrong about Jesus!!
Two practices of churches today are the focus on the giving of tithes and offerings and magnifying the role of the pastors in the church. The focus is to make the pastors and their families rich through extorting from members various kinds of offerings centering on the personal needs of the pastors.
I’ve heard of painting with a broad brush, but this is over the top. We exist to glorify God. The scenes in the book of revelations kind of sets the tone adequately.
I pray this content gets wide circulation.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
Thanks for your work Tom!
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
@@tomwadsworthI sure hope you focus in on 1Cor14:32-33, “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
We cannot choose our interpretation. We are subject to the Scriptures.
too many commercials.
“HEREIN is My Father ‘Glorified’;
That ‘Y-o-u’ bear MUCH FRUIT: So Shall ‘Y-o-u’ Be MY Disciples.”
~ JESUS CHRIST ~
(St John 15:8)
~~~
:)
You guys are really onto the truth, that we need to talk about it together, o learn from you and likewise you could learn from me if you heard from me. My study is just this a conversation looking to be had...
Exactly. Everything that Jesus fulfilled and made obsolete, they want to reassemble everything back to the Old Testament system. When the Spirit is absent this is the result now. We need to get back to the real church meeting. The way to do it is to have all the chairs in a circle. Everyone is facing one another. No one is elevated. Each one has a contribution that includes the spiritual gifts as per 1 Cor. 14; 26. Yes, edifying is the key word, and in this verse we see the terms of 'each one' contributes, and at 'every meeting.' This was not the exception, this was the rule. The meeting is yielded to the Holy Spirit to lead. No program, no schedule, no script. The spontaneous element of it is there. Many are afraid of this but God will show up and it will be better than whatever man could have done instead. It should begin with praising God as it leads into the rest of it. One problem with the typical 'small groups' stemming out of churches is that the structure is the same, it is top-down, it is highly structured, there is no chance for everyone to share a spiritual gift or such, it is soliciting a scripted reply based on a study guide or some other material that someone else selected. It still won't work that way. Blessings to both of you!
The paid professional clergy (Priestly class) isn't going to give up their cushy jobs. It doesn't pay them to make disciples who will take their power influence and control.
Seminaries are probably in the same boat most of the time.
@@BillTony2 How do you think we got here?
Let's collect some ideas of ways modern churches can begin the change to the more biblical model that you speak of......
I identified nine such ways ... in Worship Video #7 What Do We Do Now?. It's here: ruclips.net/video/CGPSQVoZrMg/видео.html
Thank you😊
As I'm here listening to this discussion, in particular the section on the worship anomaly, I'm left asking myself, "Why would God, the Holy Spirit, who lives within me, lead me to worship God, externally?" Is not our union, the original intent of God, from the time of creation, so that God and mankind would be in continuous fellowship? That was Jesus' mission, to get Holy Spirt back into man, and His greatest work, and the Gospel, in my opinion, was when He gathered the Apostles, and said, while blowing unto each of them, and ultimately all who become Believers, "Receive the Holy Spirit", the very thing He did when He breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils after forming him from the dust of the ground. The prefix "re" means again, and the word "ceive" means to have, so what He's saying is, "Again have the Holy Spirit". So then, the question must be asked, "Why are we practicing worshiping?" Just my thoughts.
I first realized the problem in the church about 20 years ago, a church i often attended in between backslides, there was a rash of divorces, all kinds of sin. I too got divorced. Its as we had a curse in the church, even the pastors son divorced twice, and he is probably the most wonderful one of their family. My conclusuon is as Jesus said , you cant cant put new wine in the old wine skin, you lose both. So its rightly dividing to know where you stand, what is the outcome.
Dr Wadsworth, at the beginning of this year I have found myself being unable to make videos as I usually do with some regularity. This is NOT because I have nothing to say, in fact I'm somewhat overwhelmed with the most beautiful messages and spoilt for choice. I could literally, if I were a minister of a congregation, teach for months on just what I have received in one month. But, I have been burdened with the fact that the church (body of believers) are mostly being lost, not understanding the gospel of the Kingdom and will not be ready when our King (the Lord Yeshua haMoshiach, the groom) returns. I've been told that I should not judge the spiritual state of others, but it isn't my conclusion, it is what He said over and over in various parables.
We are at a critical time where I believe the time is so short, and I do not know how to most effectively reach this audience whom I have this tremendous burden for. And there is my problem. It is easy to say, just do something, but I honestly feel overwhelmed with the magnitude of what needs to be done. I've commented on one of your other videos and expressed my great appreciation of your work. We came to similar conclusions from different approaches, and your view resounds with deep truth that has to be disseminated with utmost urgency. At least as a first priority.
Even though it has been on my agenda as part of the messages I need to share, I want to ask if I can rather share a short video where I say this ☝🏻, and then link it to this video which clearly and concisely states the case (rather than duplicate your excellent work)? Please check my channel in case you have reservations. I would be most grateful to receive your confirmation and consent.
In the meantime, please keep pushing this message. I believe that God might force the issue by sending intense persecution, which will force a return to the original pattern of meeting from house-to-house and true community. This might even be unavoidable. We know that the church flourishes under persecution, but at the least we need to install the foundational understanding for this shift and the coming promised revival (the late rain that will come just before the harvest).
Well, as usual I've already said more than enough. Thank you again for your excellent work.
After listening to this. I’m impressed with the statements. I do believe in house churches in that they may be more edifying in building up between believers. But Jesus and the apostles were on different occasions in larger places as the upper room delivering sermons and teachings. And both ways were blessings because it is the word of God and his word is effective either in small groups or large.
Although the discoveries are wordy based it doesn’t mean that church and worship are out of order. Even though some seem to approve this. Many still appreciate the sermons and worship in the churches. Not all churches are in decline mode many are thriving and are healthy. Just as house gatherings.
What disturbs me in this talk is that we make presumptions to divide and encourage divisions why work for the devil? Will this be any better? What impression will this attitude cause for the loss around us hearing such things. House meeting and church are both good and they have both their purposes.
In Corinthians Paul told them to eat at home, because they were abusing the Lord’s Supper.
Tom mentioned 1st Corinthians 14, one verse in particular spoke to me as to the message Paul had was in verse 26 where he says why is it when you come together everyone has a revelation or a psalms and interpretation, then he Saud count this for edification. To me Paul was saying shut about those things of the old, because I'm giving you the new, the gospel.
He was bringing the church to faith and his message supersedes the old and it fulfills the old. Just as in Jesus ministry the two mentions of the greatest faith was from two gentiles that were not under the law. They had merely heard about Jesus.
It's like the law kills the faith, and Paul says the law is the ministry of death and condemnation, he's not putting down the law in fact I believe he says the law is good it's just not good for man. Which leads back to the tithe is law.
Amen!!!
This guy Allan is just soaking up this teaching like he has found the elixir of life, or maybe more appropriately "springs of living water", and he is drinking deeply after years of dehydration from wandering in the desert called the church!
Great conversation, i got a question 2nd Corinthians 8;14,15 does the present church reflect that we honor pauls words, i would say that it has not been practiced. I talked about this over and over in my blog untill one day i happened upon scrioture i believe exodus 12;18, that might be wrong i dont have my bible next to me right now but paul is quoting phrases that pertain to the exodus, that should say so much, it does to my study , my study says that 2nd Corinthians thru Thessalonians is the harvest of the church in advance. The harvest is the exodus. Anyhow im commenting as i listen, i didnt know tom would mention 1st Corinthians 14;26 .
Very thought provoking converstation .
Can you rephrase your question?
I think the crux of the issue with modern churches is the idea that “building up” one another means to bolster or stroke the ego to make people feel good about themselves so that they “feel” encouraged.
The reality is, true edification looks more like discipleship that ACTUALLY facilitates and encourages people in their journey to proclaim the Gospel. Having the reading and expositing of scripture be the primary focus of meeting together. Learning scripture in its original context rather than using bits of it here and there to pad a pep talk.
We would have a better idea of who is really interested in following Christ if we hit the pause button on the frivolous amenities associated with churches for 12 weeks and simply read Jesus’s actual teachings. I would imagine the people who are there to be entertained will leave and those who are there to be discipled will actually find it more edifying than the cinematic productions services have become.
Pastors have become more concerned with head counts than discipleship. The idea of seeing false converts evaporate leaving only a small handful of people behind terrifies them.
Can you please share your understanding about the role of women in the 1 Corinthians 14 gathering? Scripture seems quite clear about them staying silent, and I wonder that many churches neglect the passage because they would then need to resolve this issue at the same time?
Send me an email at tomwadsworth.com/contact. I will share my understanding about the role of women.
Well no, women are not to stay silent. We all have spiritual gifts and are all called to use them. The Bible says there is no male or female. The Bible even says WHEN women prophesy they are to have a head covering on. It does seem like a contradiction but many take this to mean that women cannot be pastors, or in that sort of role of 'authority' in an overseer sense. I have even read somewhere that the 'be silent' part used to be in a footnote and they slipped it into the Bible. Don't think that doesn't happen, they try to dance things in and out of the footnotes when convenient, just like they try to dance out Acts 8; 37 because it refutes infant baptism. Anyway I don't know what their thinking is but why not 'err' in the other direction then? The reason is because this model suits them better for their power structure/business empire.
Where two or three are gathered together in my name I am there in the midst of them (Jesus). It seems organized religion has become a spectator event or show with actors on a stage performing and the spectators sitting and simply observing the show with little to no participation or preparation.
Are you sure that teach and preach are not some times used interchangably?
I wish you would have mentioned women being aloud to share in th gathering also. Corinthians teaches in that day as to the way their head must be covered . And they cld pray too in the assembly
Sadly history has taught us that the church has never been more vibrant more impacting in the world than when it is in persecution and distress. Perhaps, that might be what it will take for the church to reclaim its first century concept of the small church setting. I have noticed that many churches have adopted the home cell concept, but it has been my feeling and conviction that, try as you may as long as that church building is standing, no matter how many home cells you got going on, its really not the same. They didn't have the comfort nor the support of the big building corporate concept to rely on. In other words, they did not a corporate office that sat over a corporate gathering of people, dictating its movement and function..
Some people see 'the corporate office" and those who "dictate its movement and function" as the source of the problem.
What the believers are losing by not having the correct set up of the assembly is the bottom line.
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The beginning of state recognition of Christianity in Italy shifted power from the office of the apostle/missionary and the office of the prophet, into the hands of the bishop/pastor.
There is a five fold ministry of:
Apostle
Prophet
Evangelist
Pastor
Teacher
Recognizing of course that the office of the prophet in the New Testament is not exactly the same as in the Old Testament. And concerning apostles, there is a general meaning concerning those who can be trusted to be sent out to form new communities without falling into moral temptation.
With the focus resting on the bishop, the anointing of the apostle and prophet was bound. In the future, as Christianity unites around the words of the returning lord, who comes in the capacity of the third Adam, the five fold ministry will be replaced by the true family structure ushered in by the Second Advent.
New Testament Church or a New Age Religious Business??
Maybe we should ask the questions what would have happened if Adam and Eve had obeyed God’s instructions. After all, it is God who wanted them to obey.
What was in God’s mind for their relationship with Him? Would it be a public building and prescribed times to gather with formulaic worship accompanied by music and gestures?
We know you can be induced to bow, or you can fall to your knees if you are really in the presence of God because of your heart. I think it’s safe to say God wants the later example.
Then what would have been the result of Adam and Eve not having required Jesus to be the Second Adam who overcame Satan’s temptation, that the first Adam could not? Answer: Grand Big Familyism.
In that case, of course there would have been no archangel with a legitimate right to accuse man. Any problem of a sensitive emotional nature therefore would generally have been solved in the family.
The earth is supposed to be an extended family, and there is nothing superior to being able to realize that the Creator of the universe is your very own father as well as your parents, siblings and extended family across the earth’s Father.
In this context, gathering probably should be done like the government is supposed to do, to solve problems as we fix this world. Government as an apparatus needs the direction from the values of God’s children.
Then why are not Christians running the major social systems? One reason is that they have not availed themselves of the merit of the Completed Testament Age. Such was a similar thing when the chosen people didn’t hearken to the Messianic thought of Jesus.
51:40 The talents, wisdom, and insights in “these folks” are only worth, to what extent, how well they align with the prophets.
1Cor14:32-33,
“And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
We cannot choose our interpretation. We are subject to the Scriptures.
If this movement does not align with Scriptures, this movement will be part of the apostasy, not the edification.
Gal 6:6 applies here: “Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.”
What he is saying is supported by the Bible, not against it. Otherwise what is your point?
@@maryrosehallowed6662 Please read my post again.
@@maryrosehallowed6662 I am hearing that each person’s own perspective is of value. That is not the standard, but what the prophets have written is the standard that aligns with the Bible.
I wish you would have mentioned women being aloud to share in th gathering also. Corinthians teaches in that day as to the way their head must be covered . And they cld pray too in the assembly and mature believers in a small gathering do not need pastors in charge .
Has anyone tried teaching other people to teach? Has anyone tried to change the model? Or are we just leaving church and going our selfish way?
Jesus warned us that the path that leads to Life is difficult and that few will find it. It never occurred to me that stepping off the Jesus-flavored part of the broad path is selfish.
I have grown to recognize cultural Christians. They don’t want to hear about what local gatherings are supposed to be about because it doesn’t serve them; it serves God. They don’t want genuine Bible studies, they want to be entertained by the Lost Ladies of LifeWay bookstore.
I don’t think it’s possible to change the model from inside the beast but maybe if we open our homes to people willing to hear God’s Word, He can change the model.
Why not leave our church and start a home church ? Why not?
We call them pastors now
The constant use of the filler word "right?" was so distracting, I almost had to go find a different interview of the guest. Sorry, just constructive criticism. There are so many more expedient vocabulary words to choose from.
Not sure, but I think you have the doctrine wrong and that is the only thing that counts, wherever you assemble or don't assemble.
Great content but lousy interview. Too much talk and not enough listening to Tom.
Cori thians, along with 11 other books, is written by who? A false apostle! There were only 12 apostles! NOT 13!
Also, we need to stop calling a building made by man of stones and bricks. JEHOVAH'S CHURCH is NOT LOSING PEOPLE! JEHOVAH'S CHURCH IS NOT IN PANIC MODE! JEHOVAH IS NOT PANICKING! HIS PEOPLE ARE BLESSED AND JUST FINE. YOU CONNECT WITH YESHUA THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT! HOW MANY BUILDINGS DID THE 12 APOSTLES BUILD?.ABSOLUTELY ZERO!
Dr. Wadsworth, i invite you to see the LDS services. I know if you give it a deep dive you will be very impressed.
(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) ❤
Hebrews 10:25 has nothing to do with church attendance.
The word interpreted as “assembling together” is a noun, not a verb. It was a reference to leaving the body of Christ to go back to Judaism. Church attendance was not the problem being addressed in Hebrews, walking away from Christianity to return to a defunct covenant that had already been fulfilled was the problem.
Verse 23 is about not losing faith, verse 24 is about encouraging people to continue in the faith, verse 25 is a reference to people who have already abandoned the faith and verse 26/27 describe the consequences of abandoning the faith.
Stop this nonsense. Ephesians 3:21; Matthew 16:16-20. 28:18-20. It seems someone has to find a new way to promote some novel idea that has been missed by the elect of God guided by the word and Holy Spirit. John 17 says the opposite. Has Jesus failed ? Apparently He has. Social media has made us all mad. The flesh, pride, and social media are doing far more evil than good. God is giving this age over to great delusion, confusion, and leading this world into that final judgment. Revelation 6:12-17; 20:11-15 are fast approaching! When Jesus returns in glory, will he find faith upon the earth? Many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 7:13,14; 22:1-14; 25:1-13; Luke 13:22-30. The real question is, who is preaching the faithful gospel today? Does absolute and ultimate biblical truth reign among those who profess Christ? This kind of thinking leads us away from what true salvation really is. If we get salvation right true and proper worship follows! John 17:17.
You must have missed the point of the video.
He's not saying you can't worship properly at a christian building, he's saying that's not how they did it back then. It was about fellowship and making disciples.
@inchristalone25 Fair enough. I am really reacting to the caption or the title of the video. Thank you.
@@michaelfalsia6062 so then watch it ..? Quick to judge