or maybe it's a rouse to get parasocial chatters to think they're actually smarter than they are/smarter than her, thus solidifying their parasocialtoxic relationship?
@@riskvideosthe one thing I can never forget about cdawg VA is when he was talking about him starting streaming and it wasn't going well at first and he thought it might be the first thing he ever failed at, because he has never failed at anything he put his mind to
4:17 - Lumi, literally the _ENTIRE_ story & setting of *_Dune_* is 100% based completely around space travel. That's what the Spice is and the whole reason why Arrakis is so important: If Spice production stops literally _everything_ about the multi-planetary civilization that Humanity has managed to establish totally falls apart, because they won't be able to navigate through hyperspace and the limitations of relativistic spacetravel at those immense distances just doesn't work to maintain a single multi-system civilization. Even things like the ways that the Shield technology in *_Dune_* works so that air can still pass through them, but projectiles can't makes their knife-fighting combat styles what they are, as well as why they can't shoot beam weapons at each other without it causing a nuclear chain reaction. Even the genetic mutations of things like the Harkonens are because humans have gradually mutated by living on alien worlds. It's FAR more science than just simple fiction on another planet. *_Star Wars_* is 100% a Space Fantasy, but *_Dune_* is absolutely a Science Fiction.
The focus is on intrigue and politics. She wants it to somehow be about the technology itself, which wouldn't retain more than a percent of the readers.
The shields in dune are still dumb. The average velocity of an air molecule is the speed of sound in its particular medium, so you should suffocate with one on. Also the beam weapon interaction is more dumb and both violates the laws of physics and would pretty much be the only interaction that matters in all military matters.
@@bort6414 That's just splitting hairs between Hard Sci-Fi Vs. Soft Sci-Fi - which isn't relevant as a counter-argument, as _it's still science fiction either way._
dune is not science fiction, there is as much science in it as flash gordon. The ecology in dune doesn't make any sense. The technology used in the universe is stupid. Ohhhh somehow almost all the water is gone on the surface of the planet? why not just mine some asteroids and comets, they are literally full of ice. You dont need ftl for that, just patient. You worry the water will evaporate again? Just use a fucking greenhouse. You can easily bribe the fremen and gain their fealty by offering them as much water as they want and a steady supply of food. the book is more philosophical and methaphorical, it is awesome, dont get me wrong. But calling it scifi is like calling 300 a documentary
I wouldn't call it rage bait, so much as probably (90 to 95%) just engagement bait. "Tolkien is boring" has been used so much, it doesn't even work, no one is going to click on that thumbnail. "Sci-fi is boring" works much better, because there is just enough truth in it (try to read any sci-fi from N.K. Jemisin or Ann Leckie, I double-dare you) to make the charge sound plausible.
So many words leave Loomi's mouth, and yet she says so little. I think the problem with how she's presenting her perspective here is that 1) everything she says feels disjointed, like she just kind of jumps from point to point without expanding on it, and 2) she's not defining her terms, or even thinking about definitions, like at around 4:30 when she's asked to define Sci-Fi, and she doesn't really have a good, concrete answer, or how she only nebulously talks about what "scale" means. I also feel like she's trying to put things too neatly into boxes; a work of fiction can have elements of multiple genres. Idk man she's just being contrarian for no reason. "It's not about science it's about a personal journey" what the fuck does that even mean? Is Ender's Game not a personal journey, while also very much being a Sci-Fi story? Huh?????? Now, because of this video, I hate all women. Thanks, Loomi.
Damn you Lemon woman... Philip K. Dick is like the premier Sci-Fi Author, he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", and the story is about Rick Deckard and how the science advancements of the story affects him and everyone else around him (like the wife). It is a personal story, that happens to be in a science fiction setting.
Lumi wants hard Sci-Fi. But she hates how repetitive realistic Sci-Fi is. Luckily, there's a lot of Sci-Fi in the Romance genre, so it's got the beep boops and the emotional connections between people. Although don't you dare call it Sci-Fi.
There is literary almost no sci-fi as she wishes. If I remember right I hate this kind of sci-fi and avoid it like the plague, mars is the most famous book/movie of the particular category. The whole Dune hexalogy is space opera at it's fines. The current most popular one that had a TV adaptation is Expanse it's sort of space opera hard sci-fi, with a ttrpg feel to it. I think the books were inspired by the authors TTRPG game they had. Lets say she would like the main books in revelation space, but the books is sort of a time paradox/loop. Where at the end of the books they send the tech for space exploration to the past so humans can get ready to fight the machines that exterminate all life in the galaxy. Or she could like Bobivers, basically budy comedy sci-fi, where a dude is turned into AI and sent to nearest star to "explore" the slow way and build more copies of itself with space stations to take in humans. But humanity wipes itself out while he is on the way there.
@@hurrdurrmurrgurr To me it seems Lumi's idea of sci-fi is that it needs to be centered on science fiction ideas. i.e. I, Robot is about sentient robots, Alien is about contact with extraterrestrial life, Space Odyssey is about a rogue AI, etc.
@@daznis the issue is that she doesn't understand the differences between the various subgenres of scifi, though I'd argue the subgenres themselves rarely have hard delineations and you can often find a "hard" story delve into "soft" issues, or have the issues in "soft" stories involve "hard" things. And really, what keeps science fiction from science fantasy? Again you have things spanning the line. You basically have chat showing her that in the clip (Hunger Games and Fallout have elements of SciFi, Frankenstien is technically SciFi). TLDR Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, but still wants to (autistically) have things solidly categorized.
I am horrified to engage in a conversation with a woman who thinks she knows how to define something, but then fails to settle on any actual definition while talking about nothing ad nauseum… there’s a real life horror novella in the making
I've read maybe 10-20 novellas or novels in the last decade, and I know shes missing or flat or not reading much of or any Scifi if that's her opinion. There alot of interesting stuff that raises interesting questions about the human or non-human condition.
@@Theonixco Yeah exactly. There are some great anthologies with very original stories and thought provoking ideas out there. The Hyperion Cantos is one of the greatest t stories I have ever read and it is mostly character development.
Bruh "interpersonal conflict" is what drives many stories... it's what they call "Man vs Man", and the other options are basically just "Man vs Self", "Man vs Society", "Man vs Nature", and "Man vs Fate/Supernatural". That's every story ever (substitute "Man vs..." for "Protagonist vs... " if you want). I agree that a truly space-spanning story tends not to be very interesting unless it goes the space opera route, but that's a personal preference. For the sake of the gimmick, you could relatively easily make something that's basically Star Wars but with all the Force stuff swapped out with technology and "future science" that has an in-universe explanation. It's possible, just probably not very appealing to most people, because the more pressing concern is having compelling characters, competent worldbuilding, and an engaging plot. The strict adherence to "science" tends to be secondary. Even something like Interstellar, which follows the Lemon Woman's rules set forth here, is only as good as it is because of the focus on characters' relationships. Also nobody should ever be accused of enjoying Divergent. Some insults go too far.
Eh, first of all, man versus nature/supernatural isn’t interpersonal conflict. Also, there have been stories that aren’t really conflict based in hard sci-fi novels, like the original Rama story by Arthur C Clarke. They just tend not to be made into movies.
I didn't want to bring up the accursed show, but the lemon has forced my hand. In the Big Bang Theory, Mr. Bazinga Man constantly makes fun of the engineer in the friend group as if he's a moron. Hearing this take from Ms. Engineering Background, I now understand.
so her arguement is that the setting of the story doesnt equal what the of theme of the story is. starwars is fantasy cause it revolves around magic cosmic space wizards even though there is spaceships and laser guns.
I think she would argue that Ender's Game would be sci-fi not because it is in space but because all the plot points involve winning a war using technology.
I would argue that Star Wars isn’t sci-fi. Just because they use space ships doesn’t make it science fiction, nothing they do in space or with their space ships deals with ANYTHING related to actual space travel. There’s no concern about distance, they just fly to different planets like they’re driving to the next town over. Hyperspace is just a hand wave, even in Star Trek, where they have warp drives and can go ftl, distance and time to get somewhere is still a factor (even at 10x the speed of light it would take about five months to get to the nearest star), they don’t ever do anything with gravity or weightlessness, they fly through densely packed meteor fields that don’t exist in real life… they might as well be flying magic chariots to magical lands around the stars. Science fiction, even soft sci-fi, needs to have SOME tether to science.
i would say star wars is more "science fantasy" it blends elements of both sci fi and fantasy. maybe a hot take but i would also say warhammer 40k is science fantasy too
This is why Clio would never be in phase, she is way way too blunt to be cohesive with phase, and why she's perfect in a give no shits aussie Vershion.
Sorry guys and Lumi fans, I don't get it. Dune literally tells about the world of the future, in which the war with artificial intelligence ended and its further development fell under the ban, as a result of which people began to genetically improve themselves. The main focus of the story is on political games, but the scientific layer on which the events take place is huge. How can this even NOT be considered sci-fi?
The sci-fi is just setting and world building, not what the story set within that setting is about. Good sci-fi is people centered, with good world building sure, but good sci-fi puts the personal stories of the characters within that world building front and center.
Interpersonal relationships in media is more of a thing that women care about Sure, it can add to a story, but in dramas made for ladys the Interpersonal BS is the bulk of the movie
You act like guys don't care about it either, Games of Thrones is all about interpersonal relationships but in terms of kingdoms and land. Like even the most action movie you can tell aka The Matrix is all about personal struggle and being one with your self with OTHERS helping to realize your potential. Most anime are super boring without that "interpersonal relationships" like would you care about why pikolo and goku don't like each other without their hated for each other from ... a frendamy relationship?
@cimozjen2167 yea but in dbz the interpersonal relationships aren't the absolute peak main points of the story, the combat is where the climaxing is You also act like I didn't say "it can add to the story" and that in media aimed at women, the interpersonal relationships are the climax - they are the main focus. Ever watch a soap opera? Where as in something like dbz relationships are part of it, but combat is a very large part of the franchise
@@cimozjen2167 I agree, stuff like Interpersonal relationships is what makes my favorite science fiction media my favorite (along with worldbuilding, which I think is best dispersed through dialogue in said relationships)
@@VetriVadewith all due respect to DBZ and its author. His work is great and its beloved by many inculding me. That said DBZ is an absolutely flat, power scaling, turn your brain off, action fantasy. There is no substance there outside of combat and stakes being upped constantly just for the sake of extending the story. Im not saying there is no drama there but I'd say the spread is like 90-10 for the action. Once again, I do enjoy me some DBZ. I think better example makes JJK and Chainsaw-Man. JJK is a full on dark power fantasy that pulls in a lot of interpesonal story beats but its main focus is still action. Chainsaw-Man on the other hand is a dark drama that involves a lot of fantasy and action elements but its main focus are interpersonal relationships. Both are important. It depends on the story and taste
@@VetriVade The combat is set dressing for the character relationships. The Saiyan saga is about Goku's people returning, the Frieza saga is about a tyrant abusing lesser people, the Cell saga is about Goku and Dr Gero's legacy. The only saga where combat is more important than characters is the tournament of power and everyone agrees Jiren is a shitty antagonist because of it.
Scifi, science fiction, is one of the most vast and varied genres in all of fiction. Narrowing it to just space related scifi does the genre an incredible disservice.
I'd probably define "sci-fi" as a fiction story with a "fictional" technological/scientific development that shapes a universe similar to our own (for instance: star trek is scifi because of the development of warp travel - instead of moving through space faster the ships curve space more, while something more fantastical like star wars is less likely to be considered scifi because the universe it presents is fundamentally different to our own in terms of its makeup - star wars has a magical "force" which isn't measureable, that being said there are still scifi concepts within star-wars and non scifi concepts in star-trek but it is "less" scifi than something like "Foundation" or Star-Trek.) I don't think the definition matters though, art is art and pushing boundaries regardless of whether a story is strictly "scifi" or just has "scifi" concepts within it doesn't really impact the quality of the story it tells - and I think the best scifi isn't about the technological differences between our universe and its fictional universe but instead about characters reactions and experiences when faced with these differences - a scifi story without characters would be pretty dull imo.
isnt the whole point directly connected with the biosphere of the planet? Btw the whole point of dune is that it needs to look magical, with a science undertone, so that the perspective of the messiah can work
One word rebuttal to this entire video: Hyperion. That four-book series is flat-out amazing, just outstanding story-telling - there's a reason Dan Simmons won the Hugo Award twice and should have won all four times the series was up for it (and this was back in the 90s, when winning a Hugo actually meant something). I will agree, though, that a lot of sci-fi, especially older sci-fi like DUNE, can be kind of dry, especially the "hard sci-fi" that insists on being strictly accurate, down to the lats detail.
That's... not really an argument, though. "Hyperion is great, therefore saying Divergent/HG aren't Sci-Fi is wrong" has about as much sense as saying "Crime and Punishment is great, therefore 50SoG is a deep psychological narrative." Hyperion can be great... and not be Sci-Fi. HG can be awful... and _also_ not be Sci-Fi. I believe (mostly because I have a friend who argues the exact same thing as Lumi) that what she understands as "Sci-Fi", is Lem and the like. Because it deals with hard science, and not some weird "hyperspace polarizations" that mean jack s., and could be easily replaced with "Magical Crystal of Elendil" and it would make pretty much the same amount of sense. Personally, I'd argue there are two definitions of SciFi - the OG old one, which is what Lumi seems to be talking about, and the new "Pop" one - which means pretty much anything dealing with technology that isn't straight up defined as "magic".
@@Xoruam I have no take on Divergent/HG beyond them being YA that just happened to port in elements, I would never bring them up in a discussion about Sci-fi (so that was kind of weird for me to see). I I absolutely agree that there are lots of Sci-fi "flavors" that make any sweeping take on the field kind of pointless. Fantasy goes through these things very regularly ("Is is this epic fantasy or sword and sorcery? Is Romantasy an actually sub-genre or just a marketing gimmick? Are hard magic and soft magic systems actually two different types of fantasy? etc., etc., etc..." ) I enjoy discussions about specific works vs. talking about a genre or field of writing, for all the reasons you point out above. You kinda have to approach each book on their own merits, in the end.....
Science fiction is where someone invents a thing and writes about how it affects people Science fantasy is where someone writes a story about people and then invents stuff to enable the story to happen
Scifi is the extrapolation on what future technology would create. It's Fiction based on possible (if possible realitic) Science. The best scifi ever written is Asimov Robot saga. The guy not only invented the concept of Robot and AI, before computers were even a thing, but he also wrote about the impact on society these robot and AI would have. With the current rise of AI his writing have never been so prophetic. THIS is scifi. These days, Scifi, just like fantasy, is an aesthetic choice based on vague popculture understanding on what the original works meant.
Indeed, Sci-fi has to include advances in science as the main catalyst for the story. For this reason I do not consider Star Wars sci-fi. Scope doesn't matter. Space doesn't matter. Science does.
The definition of sci-fi is technology that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, magic could be called science we haven't figured out yet. Alice in Wonderland could be considered sci-fi. When definitions are too loose, they lose all meaning.
It sounds like lumi has a problem with space opera rather than sci fi but also only sees space opera as the one true Sci fi. This is why lumi is our favorite
All Tomorrows is technically sci-fi and it's far from uniform or bland. The issue is that for the longest time people are trying to copy star trek and have a beautiful, prosperous, united society. The reality is that the chances of that happening approach zero, so going into a different direction, with different human factions, body modification due to different environments, etc could be far more interesting.
7:39 That’s where supernatural sci-fi comes in Magic based on pseudo-science, folklore/myth, and theory crafting on the limits of natural laws as we know them is peak
I partially agree with her that Mad Max isn't Scifi, it's entirely based on existing technology in a regressed post-Apocalypse, but something like Fallout is both Post-Apocalypse AND Scifi. The Hunger Games I can't speak on because I've never read or seen it, but certainly the fact it's in the future seems largely irrelevant, so maybe it's not Scifi? But Lumi really seems to be under the mistaken impression that the only Scifi that is "Scifi" is the very specific subset of "Hard Science Fiction" that was common mostly in the mid-20th century. Even a modern 'hard' Scifi like The Expanse wouldn't be Scifi by her definition. In general, Scifi is absolutely an extremely broad "genre", just like Romance and Fantasy. There's a reason there's hundreds of different subcategories within the "Scifi" umbrella. But "being set in the future" isn't enough - nor is it exclusive, as Star Wars is undeniably Scifi-Fantasy but is explicitly set in the past, not to mention any other Scifi story that takes place in a fictional advanced Space Past, like Halo's Forerunner stories. The understood definition of Scifi, really, is stories where a setting is different to our own through _some_ notable change in technology or the like that is strictly within the realms of science (fictional or otherwise) such as FTL travel, Alien Visitors, Sentient Robots, Time Travel et al, rather than the difference being purely magical or fundamentally fantastical, IE Fantasy. That's why Star Wars, with FTL drives and the Force, is both, but Star Trek, where all the "magic" is accepted to simply be science we don't _yet_ understand, is decidely Scifi. This is also why Alternate History is often considered Scifi even if there's no elements like Aliens or Time Travel, because it's just "What if real world, but different?"
Something can be sci fi without telling a story that needs to be sci fi. Its like how you can have a story set in new york without the statue of liberty.
Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, or that things can have genre crossover, but still wants to have things solidly categorized. I find it funny that she views everyone in chat as wanting slop when for her sci-fi has to be in space.
You know I ragged on this without context on Twitter but I'd rather throw Dune away than claim The Hunger Games as a sci-fi series. And to be fair her point about "it needs to have science" is a valid one and I wholeheartedly agree with it - but I'm a sci fi writer and obsessive sci-fi nerd so I'm probably biased in that regard. Disqualifying anything that throws personal journeys out is a certified Lumi take though.... Also also, the first person who tries to qualify the *space opera* that is Star Wars as a sci-fi series in my replies is getting shipped off to Siberia. Don't you dare.
If you're getting rid of Dune because it's science is fantastical then you need to get rid of Star Trek and most of the genre as well. The Hunger Games has nothing of substance we don't have today (or when it was written to be more correct) except for a few structural political changes whereas Dune has interstellar travel, forcefields and societies based off genetic manipulation. Once you're through with the disqualifiers Lumi tacks on to decide what is not sci-fi all you're left with are thesis papers on string theory for science fiction.
In the beginning of Sci Fi as a genere there was distinct emphasis on the scientific aspect (e.g. how society would look like if we had discovered this or that machine). The science was used to extrapolate from current knowledge what was possible to do in the (far) future with current scientific discoveries (e.g. laser, some kind of theoretical way to traverse traverse space, etc.). Later this part of Sci Fi was categorized as a Hard Sci Fi. I'm not sure what is definition of general Sci Fi now, but it seems to be that anything that uses Sci Fi gadgets gets this label automatically. I don't think Hunger Games would be Sci Fi just because it happens in the future because they don't use gadgets that much and it seems to be places in near future. It's more about how a society can change, but without any scientific impulse (just strait up extrapolation of the divide of people to the haves, and have-nots). Still there is Foundation series of Isaac Asimov that is pretty close to that description (though it happens in the far future) and I would argue that it is one of the best Sci Fi series written. I think that the difference there is that series assumes that social science got to a point where it's possible to predict large social movements like raise and fall of empires on the macro scale and while it didn't give characters ability to avoid tragedies, it let them to prepare for them and lessen the negative aspects of the future. It has the vastness of space, but it is concerned mostly with the politics of the setting and how characters resolve current crisis using political mechanisms. Still doesn't pass the Lemon woman test, but I like it.
Not only Dune is clearly a sci-fi, but it's also on a surprisingly hardish side of it. Most of things there deliberately made look bizarre, but fundamentally aren't that impossible. And even more magical stuff like FTL is more grounded, they even still use nukes as a "no u" button. Even their space wizards are possibly least wizardly in a history of space wizardry. And then there's ecology which is just Herbert's main specialty and done with great care. There's just no way to spin Dune as non sci-fi without being laughed out of the room. And concerning hunger games, I don't really know. I haven't really watched it, but from tidbits I've seen I can't really remember anything that technological tbh. Like, maybe a camera drones flying around? Doesn't really cut it for me. I dunno, were there at least flying cars or something?
Fallout is Sci-Fi with it's lost technology like energy weapons, power armor, and things like the FEV and project Eden as the plot, clearly post apocalyptical as a setting. Hunger Games has a dystopian setting but is barely sci-fi, in the sense the technology doesn't affect the story in the slightest and could have taken place in an arena in ancient Rome, it's mostly a backdrop for the setting.
The term both she and chat are looking for is "Speculative Fiction." A lot of the best sci-fi is speculative, but it's not mandatory. -and to be fair, the root concept of Divergent is neat; it just doesn't do anything interesting with it.
Animatrix was an interesting watch back in the day, I always enjoyed the one about the runner who breaks a world record and pushes beyond his limits which begins to desync him with the matrix. Also I always had a soft spot for the one about the girl looking for her cat and discovering an anomaly in an abandoned building with a group of kids, the colours is that one are great and the overall experience of a “real life” glitch and how you would interact with it.
Maybe Lumi tryin to say sometimes you could tell the same story in different genres,like for instance we have Robocop which is cyberpunk,but you could also tell it in a fantasy setting (think D&d) but the main character is now a warforged paladin.....
I would agree that "Dune" is not sci-fi. The humanity of the "Dune" universe is not shaped by advanced tech, and they really want to keep it that way. On surface, it's about politics in space. On deeper level, it's all about timeless things like religion, society, and philosophy.
I think the cringey part is when she decides to react to the single chat comment that agrees with her instead of everyone else who is saying she's wrong. The definition of selective reading.
Hunger games is literally premised by a warring set of small nations (states? idr), where Capital eventually outpaces all the rest and holds them in more primitive states of living at threat of nuking them off the map. All the while the people of Capital live the completely alien lives based on their superior technologies and body alterations. You have to have literally not understood the show to think it wouldn't qualify as sci-fi lol.
It's more like a capital with slave cities/camps. The capital is the gather point of resources while these slave camps are kept at the lowest level of technology to keep them productive. It kind of doesn't qualify as sci-fi because the level of technology doesn't really matter and the advanced technology that exists doesn't impact the story. The story could have been in 1200 AD without altering the core plot.
Dune is classic Science Fiction because it fully extrapolates from the genesis "what if" that so many of the old Sci-Fi stories did... "What if we lived on a planet that was one gigantic desert?" And everything flows from there. However because of the scope, I think that it better fits into the "science fantasy" genre because modern sci-fi does not hand itself the same way that it did generations ago.
In general, Lumi's predictably wrong. But who the fuck could ever think The Hunger Games is sci-fi? Ooh, weird outfits and hairstyles, so sci-fi in my archery movie!
I see the Lemon Woman has no idea what sci-fi actually is about, but to be fair that goes for most people and I'm old enough to not bother correcting people anymore.
I'm not a sci-fi aficionado, but she stated Interstellar as what she would consider as one so I guess any commenters should debate what makes Interstellar sci-fi to her versus something like Dune not. I feel like a hard example like Interstellar should give enough into what she views as sci-fi focused on space.
Cultural classic milestones of the genre like Terminator, Planet of the Apes, Alien, The Matrix, Back to the Future, and others went through a revolving door of being considered sci-fi and then not, like, a minimum of three times over the course of 12 minutes. I hope she never leaves entertainment for the sake of the patience and mental well-being of the fellow engineers that would have to suffer the constant contradictions and cognitive dissonance in whatever project they were working on.
I disagree, the reality and the size of space don't necessarily have an impact on a science-fiction story. You can tell any story you want, it's all about the characters, the world building and the setting. See on the TV side with Babylon 5, The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica or classic Star Trek (from TOS to Enterprise).
Lumi is just mad that a story usually has a personal story and sci-fi has a story in it. She probably reads textbooks and non-fiction as "science fiction"
Book genres are publishing/marketing tool to get a book on the same shelf as another book, and sell to dum-dums that want the same stuff they already like without experiencing new or nuanced stories. For instance, they seek the "Space" shelf.
I have no idea if Lumi has read it, but I feel she'd both be angered by and fascinated by "The Killing Star" by Pellegrino and Zebrowski. It's got a really annoying subplot in it that took the story in a really bad direction for me, butt he hard sci-fi in it might be her thing.
Lumi (woman) doesn't realize that the realistic sifi she wants turns into cosmic horror very quickly.
Lumi in a nutshell: She's smart enough to say dumb things regularly.
or maybe it's a rouse to get parasocial chatters to think they're actually smarter than they are/smarter than her, thus solidifying their parasocialtoxic relationship?
She seems to have forgotten the fiction part of science fiction
This clip turned me into a mysoginist.
Average reaction after 5 minutes of lemon.
Women ☕️
Based. She sounds dumb af.
Yeah lumi does that
This clip turned me on
I am constantly shocked every time lumis engineer background gets brought up
The lemon woman is a repeated reminder that a degree is just an expensive piece of paper.
@@ffwast yeah. I was surprised CDawg had a background in engineering too. You wouldn't guess these goofballs would.
Did we ever learn what kind of engineer lumi is?
@@riskvideosthe one thing I can never forget about cdawg VA is when he was talking about him starting streaming and it wasn't going well at first and he thought it might be the first thing he ever failed at, because he has never failed at anything he put his mind to
@@ramelband Basket weaving
This clip is a lot funnier if you slowly start decreasing the volume around a minute in and then close the tab.
99.9% of the time when people argue about the definitions of genres is just an excuse to exclude things they don't like, lmao
Anything explained by an engineer that can't park a truck and forgets the difference between a helicopter and a plane rings hollow to me
Jurasic park is Sci-Fi
Also it's part of the horror genre.
It features drama between people, therefore not sci-fi according to lemon logic.
@@hurrdurrmurrgurrSci-Fi is when no people…
@@williethenerfherder2193 It was to 7 year old me.
4:17 - Lumi, literally the _ENTIRE_ story & setting of *_Dune_* is 100% based completely around space travel.
That's what the Spice is and the whole reason why Arrakis is so important: If Spice production stops literally _everything_ about the multi-planetary civilization that Humanity has managed to establish totally falls apart, because they won't be able to navigate through hyperspace and the limitations of relativistic spacetravel at those immense distances just doesn't work to maintain a single multi-system civilization.
Even things like the ways that the Shield technology in *_Dune_* works so that air can still pass through them, but projectiles can't makes their knife-fighting combat styles what they are, as well as why they can't shoot beam weapons at each other without it causing a nuclear chain reaction. Even the genetic mutations of things like the Harkonens are because humans have gradually mutated by living on alien worlds. It's FAR more science than just simple fiction on another planet.
*_Star Wars_* is 100% a Space Fantasy, but *_Dune_* is absolutely a Science Fiction.
Nah it's space fantasy
The focus is on intrigue and politics. She wants it to somehow be about the technology itself, which wouldn't retain more than a percent of the readers.
The shields in dune are still dumb. The average velocity of an air molecule is the speed of sound in its particular medium, so you should suffocate with one on. Also the beam weapon interaction is more dumb and both violates the laws of physics and would pretty much be the only interaction that matters in all military matters.
@@bort6414 That's just splitting hairs between Hard Sci-Fi Vs. Soft Sci-Fi - which isn't relevant as a counter-argument, as _it's still science fiction either way._
dune is not science fiction, there is as much science in it as flash gordon. The ecology in dune doesn't make any sense. The technology used in the universe is stupid.
Ohhhh somehow almost all the water is gone on the surface of the planet? why not just mine some asteroids and comets, they are literally full of ice. You dont need ftl for that, just patient. You worry the water will evaporate again? Just use a fucking greenhouse.
You can easily bribe the fremen and gain their fealty by offering them as much water as they want and a steady supply of food.
the book is more philosophical and methaphorical, it is awesome, dont get me wrong. But calling it scifi is like calling 300 a documentary
Disrespectfully disagree with the yellow woman.
This has to be rage bait, right?
Nah shes just a famale.
no, she's just female
I wouldn't call it rage bait, so much as probably (90 to 95%) just engagement bait. "Tolkien is boring" has been used so much, it doesn't even work, no one is going to click on that thumbnail. "Sci-fi is boring" works much better, because there is just enough truth in it (try to read any sci-fi from N.K. Jemisin or Ann Leckie, I double-dare you) to make the charge sound plausible.
Lumi's entire character is being rage bait.
No unfortunately some people criticize things without first understanding what they are or why they are enjoyed.
So many words leave Loomi's mouth, and yet she says so little. I think the problem with how she's presenting her perspective here is that 1) everything she says feels disjointed, like she just kind of jumps from point to point without expanding on it, and 2) she's not defining her terms, or even thinking about definitions, like at around 4:30 when she's asked to define Sci-Fi, and she doesn't really have a good, concrete answer, or how she only nebulously talks about what "scale" means. I also feel like she's trying to put things too neatly into boxes; a work of fiction can have elements of multiple genres. Idk man she's just being contrarian for no reason. "It's not about science it's about a personal journey" what the fuck does that even mean? Is Ender's Game not a personal journey, while also very much being a Sci-Fi story? Huh?????? Now, because of this video, I hate all women. Thanks, Loomi.
Maybe that's her master plan. To make us all misogynistic. And we are falling right into it. Diabolical
TRUE!
The average Lemon woman experience.
Damn you Lemon woman... Philip K. Dick is like the premier Sci-Fi Author, he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", and the story is about Rick Deckard and how the science advancements of the story affects him and everyone else around him (like the wife). It is a personal story, that happens to be in a science fiction setting.
Lumi wants hard Sci-Fi. But she hates how repetitive realistic Sci-Fi is. Luckily, there's a lot of Sci-Fi in the Romance genre, so it's got the beep boops and the emotional connections between people. Although don't you dare call it Sci-Fi.
Shes a woman. She always wants the opposite of what she says.
There is literary almost no sci-fi as she wishes. If I remember right I hate this kind of sci-fi and avoid it like the plague, mars is the most famous book/movie of the particular category. The whole Dune hexalogy is space opera at it's fines. The current most popular one that had a TV adaptation is Expanse it's sort of space opera hard sci-fi, with a ttrpg feel to it. I think the books were inspired by the authors TTRPG game they had. Lets say she would like the main books in revelation space, but the books is sort of a time paradox/loop. Where at the end of the books they send the tech for space exploration to the past so humans can get ready to fight the machines that exterminate all life in the galaxy. Or she could like Bobivers, basically budy comedy sci-fi, where a dude is turned into AI and sent to nearest star to "explore" the slow way and build more copies of itself with space stations to take in humans. But humanity wipes itself out while he is on the way there.
Even hard sci-fi is about people living in these future scenarios. Lumi's idea of sci-fi is a list of readouts from the voyager space probe.
@@hurrdurrmurrgurr To me it seems Lumi's idea of sci-fi is that it needs to be centered on science fiction ideas. i.e. I, Robot is about sentient robots, Alien is about contact with extraterrestrial life, Space Odyssey is about a rogue AI, etc.
@@daznis the issue is that she doesn't understand the differences between the various subgenres of scifi, though I'd argue the subgenres themselves rarely have hard delineations and you can often find a "hard" story delve into "soft" issues, or have the issues in "soft" stories involve "hard" things.
And really, what keeps science fiction from science fantasy? Again you have things spanning the line.
You basically have chat showing her that in the clip (Hunger Games and Fallout have elements of SciFi, Frankenstien is technically SciFi).
TLDR Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, but still wants to (autistically) have things solidly categorized.
So, to lumi sci-fi is when you write an essay about a laser rifle and how it's being used to colonize the smarfendop planet
Xeelee Sequence
And that's why it is based, the opposite of this 🍋
I am horrified to engage in a conversation with a woman who thinks she knows how to define something, but then fails to settle on any actual definition while talking about nothing ad nauseum… there’s a real life horror novella in the making
Lumi: I want my sci-fi all about space, and technology and all that science stuff!
Also Lumi: most space-sci-fi is boring
I love this woman
she basically contradicts herself every 3 minutes. no consistency.
Suddenly, I'm getting extremely angry.
She is really just admitting she hasn't read much.
Please be patent, she is a woman.
Other than vampire smut books
I've read maybe 10-20 novellas or novels in the last decade, and I know shes missing or flat or not reading much of or any Scifi if that's her opinion. There alot of interesting stuff that raises interesting questions about the human or non-human condition.
@@Theonixco Yeah exactly. There are some great anthologies with very original stories and thought provoking ideas out there. The Hyperion Cantos is one of the greatest t stories I have ever read and it is mostly character development.
A woman of many opinions and none of them are right.
Bruh "interpersonal conflict" is what drives many stories... it's what they call "Man vs Man", and the other options are basically just "Man vs Self", "Man vs Society", "Man vs Nature", and "Man vs Fate/Supernatural". That's every story ever (substitute "Man vs..." for "Protagonist vs... " if you want). I agree that a truly space-spanning story tends not to be very interesting unless it goes the space opera route, but that's a personal preference. For the sake of the gimmick, you could relatively easily make something that's basically Star Wars but with all the Force stuff swapped out with technology and "future science" that has an in-universe explanation. It's possible, just probably not very appealing to most people, because the more pressing concern is having compelling characters, competent worldbuilding, and an engaging plot. The strict adherence to "science" tends to be secondary. Even something like Interstellar, which follows the Lemon Woman's rules set forth here, is only as good as it is because of the focus on characters' relationships.
Also nobody should ever be accused of enjoying Divergent. Some insults go too far.
Eh, first of all, man versus nature/supernatural isn’t interpersonal conflict.
Also, there have been stories that aren’t really conflict based in hard sci-fi novels, like the original Rama story by Arthur C Clarke. They just tend not to be made into movies.
Ah, so Dune? The book is actually way more focused on the technology, geology and biology of Arrakis, and is actually very intelligent about it
Genre police never heard of space operas
Do women just lose 50 iq points selectively?
At least.
On the regular
IQ means next to nothing, yet the fact you are taking this ragebait seriously speaks volumes about how low yours is :")
I didn't want to bring up the accursed show, but the lemon has forced my hand.
In the Big Bang Theory, Mr. Bazinga Man constantly makes fun of the engineer in the friend group as if he's a moron. Hearing this take from Ms. Engineering Background, I now understand.
so her arguement is that the setting of the story doesnt equal what the of theme of the story is. starwars is fantasy cause it revolves around magic cosmic space wizards even though there is spaceships and laser guns.
And she's wrong. Science Fiction is a setting descriptor, not a theme.
I think she would argue that Ender's Game would be sci-fi not because it is in space but because all the plot points involve winning a war using technology.
Star wars is science fantasy
I would argue that Star Wars isn’t sci-fi. Just because they use space ships doesn’t make it science fiction, nothing they do in space or with their space ships deals with ANYTHING related to actual space travel. There’s no concern about distance, they just fly to different planets like they’re driving to the next town over. Hyperspace is just a hand wave, even in Star Trek, where they have warp drives and can go ftl, distance and time to get somewhere is still a factor (even at 10x the speed of light it would take about five months to get to the nearest star), they don’t ever do anything with gravity or weightlessness, they fly through densely packed meteor fields that don’t exist in real life… they might as well be flying magic chariots to magical lands around the stars.
Science fiction, even soft sci-fi, needs to have SOME tether to science.
i would say star wars is more "science fantasy" it blends elements of both sci fi and fantasy. maybe a hot take but i would also say warhammer 40k is science fantasy too
she's so cooked bros :(
Juiced lemon
Wow she is objectively wrong. It's like saying first contact isn't Sci-Fi because it' Picard's personal journey.
Check Clio's comment at 10:16 lol
Clio being based as usual
This is why Clio would never be in phase, she is way way too blunt to be cohesive with phase, and why she's perfect in a give no shits aussie Vershion.
This is cruel and unusual punishment
My favorite Sci-Fi movie was Flubber
Tardgineer*
It's cute how she tries to put a single label on a box containing multiple things.
Instantly transported back to my 401 English class where we spent a full week on this exact debate.
What was the conclusion? Hopefully better than the L take by lemon woman here.
Totally didn't cheat on the RAADS-R
It’s all amazing to me how smart people loop right back around to being stupid just because of their ego .
Fachidiot is the term I believe.
it's amazing how you think she's not ragebait farming and is actually giving a take. sounds like your ego is the thing blind here lol
It's just the grandfather of most sci-fi along with Starship Troopers, no big deal.
Welcome to Loombi's radical skedaddical magical yapping power hour.
5:20 Gaslight, 6:24 Gatekeep,
10:24 Girlboss
Sorry guys and Lumi fans, I don't get it. Dune literally tells about the world of the future, in which the war with artificial intelligence ended and its further development fell under the ban, as a result of which people began to genetically improve themselves. The main focus of the story is on political games, but the scientific layer on which the events take place is huge. How can this even NOT be considered sci-fi?
Sigh, this lemon.
Every good sci-fi is people-based. That fact doesnt make it not-scifi.
Being "people-based" doesnt turn sci-fi into fantasy.
This is one of my favorite Lumi clips. Lumi lumening, the Lumi faced train shirt, the Wiishop track... 👌
The sci-fi is just setting and world building, not what the story set within that setting is about. Good sci-fi is people centered, with good world building sure, but good sci-fi puts the personal stories of the characters within that world building front and center.
Interpersonal relationships in media is more of a thing that women care about
Sure, it can add to a story, but in dramas made for ladys the Interpersonal BS is the bulk of the movie
You act like guys don't care about it either, Games of Thrones is all about interpersonal relationships but in terms of kingdoms and land. Like even the most action movie you can tell aka The Matrix is all about personal struggle and being one with your self with OTHERS helping to realize your potential. Most anime are super boring without that "interpersonal relationships" like would you care about why pikolo and goku don't like each other without their hated for each other from ... a frendamy relationship?
@cimozjen2167 yea but in dbz the interpersonal relationships aren't the absolute peak main points of the story, the combat is where the climaxing is
You also act like I didn't say "it can add to the story" and that in media aimed at women, the interpersonal relationships are the climax - they are the main focus. Ever watch a soap opera?
Where as in something like dbz relationships are part of it, but combat is a very large part of the franchise
@@cimozjen2167 I agree, stuff like Interpersonal relationships is what makes my favorite science fiction media my favorite (along with worldbuilding, which I think is best dispersed through dialogue in said relationships)
@@VetriVadewith all due respect to DBZ and its author. His work is great and its beloved by many inculding me.
That said DBZ is an absolutely flat, power scaling, turn your brain off, action fantasy. There is no substance there outside of combat and stakes being upped constantly just for the sake of extending the story. Im not saying there is no drama there but I'd say the spread is like 90-10 for the action.
Once again, I do enjoy me some DBZ.
I think better example makes JJK and Chainsaw-Man.
JJK is a full on dark power fantasy that pulls in a lot of interpesonal story beats but its main focus is still action.
Chainsaw-Man on the other hand is a dark drama that involves a lot of fantasy and action elements but its main focus are interpersonal relationships.
Both are important. It depends on the story and taste
@@VetriVade The combat is set dressing for the character relationships. The Saiyan saga is about Goku's people returning, the Frieza saga is about a tyrant abusing lesser people, the Cell saga is about Goku and Dr Gero's legacy. The only saga where combat is more important than characters is the tournament of power and everyone agrees Jiren is a shitty antagonist because of it.
Scifi, science fiction, is one of the most vast and varied genres in all of fiction. Narrowing it to just space related scifi does the genre an incredible disservice.
im genuinely so fucking mad
If Lumi was a man I'd be fuming but she's not so water of a duck's back
I'd probably define "sci-fi" as a fiction story with a "fictional" technological/scientific development that shapes a universe similar to our own (for instance: star trek is scifi because of the development of warp travel - instead of moving through space faster the ships curve space more, while something more fantastical like star wars is less likely to be considered scifi because the universe it presents is fundamentally different to our own in terms of its makeup - star wars has a magical "force" which isn't measureable, that being said there are still scifi concepts within star-wars and non scifi concepts in star-trek but it is "less" scifi than something like "Foundation" or Star-Trek.)
I don't think the definition matters though, art is art and pushing boundaries regardless of whether a story is strictly "scifi" or just has "scifi" concepts within it doesn't really impact the quality of the story it tells - and I think the best scifi isn't about the technological differences between our universe and its fictional universe but instead about characters reactions and experiences when faced with these differences - a scifi story without characters would be pretty dull imo.
Tell me you haven't watched _Planetes_ without telling me you haven't watched _Planetes._
isnt the whole point directly connected with the biosphere of the planet?
Btw the whole point of dune is that it needs to look magical, with a science undertone, so that the perspective of the messiah can work
Space Fantasy is a genre term that needs to come back.
One word rebuttal to this entire video: Hyperion. That four-book series is flat-out amazing, just outstanding story-telling - there's a reason Dan Simmons won the Hugo Award twice and should have won all four times the series was up for it (and this was back in the 90s, when winning a Hugo actually meant something).
I will agree, though, that a lot of sci-fi, especially older sci-fi like DUNE, can be kind of dry, especially the "hard sci-fi" that insists on being strictly accurate, down to the lats detail.
That's... not really an argument, though.
"Hyperion is great, therefore saying Divergent/HG aren't Sci-Fi is wrong" has about as much sense as saying "Crime and Punishment is great, therefore 50SoG is a deep psychological narrative."
Hyperion can be great... and not be Sci-Fi. HG can be awful... and _also_ not be Sci-Fi.
I believe (mostly because I have a friend who argues the exact same thing as Lumi) that what she understands as "Sci-Fi", is Lem and the like. Because it deals with hard science, and not some weird "hyperspace polarizations" that mean jack s., and could be easily replaced with "Magical Crystal of Elendil" and it would make pretty much the same amount of sense.
Personally, I'd argue there are two definitions of SciFi - the OG old one, which is what Lumi seems to be talking about, and the new "Pop" one - which means pretty much anything dealing with technology that isn't straight up defined as "magic".
@@Xoruam I have no take on Divergent/HG beyond them being YA that just happened to port in elements, I would never bring them up in a discussion about Sci-fi (so that was kind of weird for me to see). I
I absolutely agree that there are lots of Sci-fi "flavors" that make any sweeping take on the field kind of pointless. Fantasy goes through these things very regularly ("Is is this epic fantasy or sword and sorcery? Is Romantasy an actually sub-genre or just a marketing gimmick? Are hard magic and soft magic systems actually two different types of fantasy? etc., etc., etc..." )
I enjoy discussions about specific works vs. talking about a genre or field of writing, for all the reasons you point out above. You kinda have to approach each book on their own merits, in the end.....
I know I stopped watching her streams for a reason
As a Jules Verne reader as a child, I get her "angle". However, it is still☕
Science fiction is where someone invents a thing and writes about how it affects people
Science fantasy is where someone writes a story about people and then invents stuff to enable the story to happen
All fiction is where someone writes a story about people and then invents stuff to enable the story to happen
Correct; it's a space opera.
Scifi is the extrapolation on what future technology would create.
It's Fiction based on possible (if possible realitic) Science.
The best scifi ever written is Asimov Robot saga.
The guy not only invented the concept of Robot and AI, before computers were even a thing, but he also wrote about the impact on society these robot and AI would have.
With the current rise of AI his writing have never been so prophetic.
THIS is scifi.
These days, Scifi, just like fantasy, is an aesthetic choice based on vague popculture understanding on what the original works meant.
Indeed, Sci-fi has to include advances in science as the main catalyst for the story. For this reason I do not consider Star Wars sci-fi. Scope doesn't matter. Space doesn't matter. Science does.
I think...Star Wars has an advancement in technology with the Death Star, a planet killer, the point the whole plot revolves around.
No amount of star(d) yap will change the fact that Herbert sent the inial serials into a sci-fi magazine to be published.
"Most spaceship related stories, they're just dry to me."
The Last Angel
Think, like, Dead Space
But the Marker is unironically the good guys.
Lumi probably thinks The Time Machine isn't sci-fi.
The definition of sci-fi is technology that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, magic could be called science we haven't figured out yet. Alice in Wonderland could be considered sci-fi.
When definitions are too loose, they lose all meaning.
It sounds like lumi has a problem with space opera rather than sci fi but also only sees space opera as the one true Sci fi. This is why lumi is our favorite
"Fallout isn't sci-fi"
Phase Disconnect bringing you only the hottest lava takes.
All Tomorrows is technically sci-fi and it's far from uniform or bland. The issue is that for the longest time people are trying to copy star trek and have a beautiful, prosperous, united society.
The reality is that the chances of that happening approach zero, so going into a different direction, with different human factions, body modification due to different environments, etc could be far more interesting.
7:39 That’s where supernatural sci-fi comes in
Magic based on pseudo-science, folklore/myth, and theory crafting on the limits of natural laws as we know them is peak
Showing 'divergent' movie poster had the same feeling of revulsion in me as an exorcist to a demon
SHE ALSO NEEDS PREGHNANCY BUT SHIINA MORE
If there’s magic it’s fantasy, if there’s no magic then it’s Scifi.
I partially agree with her that Mad Max isn't Scifi, it's entirely based on existing technology in a regressed post-Apocalypse, but something like Fallout is both Post-Apocalypse AND Scifi. The Hunger Games I can't speak on because I've never read or seen it, but certainly the fact it's in the future seems largely irrelevant, so maybe it's not Scifi? But Lumi really seems to be under the mistaken impression that the only Scifi that is "Scifi" is the very specific subset of "Hard Science Fiction" that was common mostly in the mid-20th century. Even a modern 'hard' Scifi like The Expanse wouldn't be Scifi by her definition.
In general, Scifi is absolutely an extremely broad "genre", just like Romance and Fantasy. There's a reason there's hundreds of different subcategories within the "Scifi" umbrella. But "being set in the future" isn't enough - nor is it exclusive, as Star Wars is undeniably Scifi-Fantasy but is explicitly set in the past, not to mention any other Scifi story that takes place in a fictional advanced Space Past, like Halo's Forerunner stories.
The understood definition of Scifi, really, is stories where a setting is different to our own through _some_ notable change in technology or the like that is strictly within the realms of science (fictional or otherwise) such as FTL travel, Alien Visitors, Sentient Robots, Time Travel et al, rather than the difference being purely magical or fundamentally fantastical, IE Fantasy. That's why Star Wars, with FTL drives and the Force, is both, but Star Trek, where all the "magic" is accepted to simply be science we don't _yet_ understand, is decidely Scifi. This is also why Alternate History is often considered Scifi even if there's no elements like Aliens or Time Travel, because it's just "What if real world, but different?"
Something can be sci fi without telling a story that needs to be sci fi. Its like how you can have a story set in new york without the statue of liberty.
i would love to hear her opinion about "feminization of academia and useless degrees".
Lumi doesn't actually understand the difference between Sci-fi, Sci-Fan, and Space-Fantasy, let alone the various subgenres, or that things can have genre crossover, but still wants to have things solidly categorized.
I find it funny that she views everyone in chat as wanting slop when for her sci-fi has to be in space.
You know I ragged on this without context on Twitter but I'd rather throw Dune away than claim The Hunger Games as a sci-fi series. And to be fair her point about "it needs to have science" is a valid one and I wholeheartedly agree with it - but I'm a sci fi writer and obsessive sci-fi nerd so I'm probably biased in that regard. Disqualifying anything that throws personal journeys out is a certified Lumi take though....
Also also, the first person who tries to qualify the *space opera* that is Star Wars as a sci-fi series in my replies is getting shipped off to Siberia. Don't you dare.
A thing can be more than one thing at once.
If you're getting rid of Dune because it's science is fantastical then you need to get rid of Star Trek and most of the genre as well. The Hunger Games has nothing of substance we don't have today (or when it was written to be more correct) except for a few structural political changes whereas Dune has interstellar travel, forcefields and societies based off genetic manipulation.
Once you're through with the disqualifiers Lumi tacks on to decide what is not sci-fi all you're left with are thesis papers on string theory for science fiction.
In the beginning of Sci Fi as a genere there was distinct emphasis on the scientific aspect (e.g. how society would look like if we had discovered this or that machine). The science was used to extrapolate from current knowledge what was possible to do in the (far) future with current scientific discoveries (e.g. laser, some kind of theoretical way to traverse traverse space, etc.). Later this part of Sci Fi was categorized as a Hard Sci Fi. I'm not sure what is definition of general Sci Fi now, but it seems to be that anything that uses Sci Fi gadgets gets this label automatically. I don't think Hunger Games would be Sci Fi just because it happens in the future because they don't use gadgets that much and it seems to be places in near future. It's more about how a society can change, but without any scientific impulse (just strait up extrapolation of the divide of people to the haves, and have-nots).
Still there is Foundation series of Isaac Asimov that is pretty close to that description (though it happens in the far future) and I would argue that it is one of the best Sci Fi series written. I think that the difference there is that series assumes that social science got to a point where it's possible to predict large social movements like raise and fall of empires on the macro scale and while it didn't give characters ability to avoid tragedies, it let them to prepare for them and lessen the negative aspects of the future. It has the vastness of space, but it is concerned mostly with the politics of the setting and how characters resolve current crisis using political mechanisms. Still doesn't pass the Lemon woman test, but I like it.
Not only Dune is clearly a sci-fi, but it's also on a surprisingly hardish side of it. Most of things there deliberately made look bizarre, but fundamentally aren't that impossible. And even more magical stuff like FTL is more grounded, they even still use nukes as a "no u" button. Even their space wizards are possibly least wizardly in a history of space wizardry. And then there's ecology which is just Herbert's main specialty and done with great care. There's just no way to spin Dune as non sci-fi without being laughed out of the room.
And concerning hunger games, I don't really know. I haven't really watched it, but from tidbits I've seen I can't really remember anything that technological tbh. Like, maybe a camera drones flying around? Doesn't really cut it for me. I dunno, were there at least flying cars or something?
What do you answer to the statement that sci-fi is kinda dead?
she really went “erm ackshually” on us
Fallout is in the Post apocaliptic genre , hungergames is a dystopian sci-fi , dune is also a post apocalipse with techno barbarism
Fallout is Sci-Fi with it's lost technology like energy weapons, power armor, and things like the FEV and project Eden as the plot, clearly post apocalyptical as a setting. Hunger Games has a dystopian setting but is barely sci-fi, in the sense the technology doesn't affect the story in the slightest and could have taken place in an arena in ancient Rome, it's mostly a backdrop for the setting.
So basically Lumi is into Man after Man and All Tomorrows.
4:56 If saw it in the SciFi channel as a kid then it’s Science Fiction as far as I’m concerned.
Like the classic Godzilla movies.
The term both she and chat are looking for is "Speculative Fiction." A lot of the best sci-fi is speculative, but it's not mandatory.
-and to be fair, the root concept of Divergent is neat; it just doesn't do anything interesting with it.
Wonder if Lumi would consider Dead Space to be true science fiction.
She most likely gravitates towards space operas.
In any case, the first matrix was great sci-fi. The anime anthology too.
Animatrix was an interesting watch back in the day, I always enjoyed the one about the runner who breaks a world record and pushes beyond his limits which begins to desync him with the matrix. Also I always had a soft spot for the one about the girl looking for her cat and discovering an anomaly in an abandoned building with a group of kids, the colours is that one are great and the overall experience of a “real life” glitch and how you would interact with it.
@DMAN99 yeah. Those were cool. 2nd renaissance was nuts too.
Maybe Lumi tryin to say sometimes you could tell the same story in different genres,like for instance we have Robocop which is cyberpunk,but you could also tell it in a fantasy setting (think D&d) but the main character is now a warforged paladin.....
I would agree that "Dune" is not sci-fi. The humanity of the "Dune" universe is not shaped by advanced tech, and they really want to keep it that way.
On surface, it's about politics in space. On deeper level, it's all about timeless things like religion, society, and philosophy.
I think the cringey part is when she decides to react to the single chat comment that agrees with her instead of everyone else who is saying she's wrong. The definition of selective reading.
Hunger games is literally premised by a warring set of small nations (states? idr), where Capital eventually outpaces all the rest and holds them in more primitive states of living at threat of nuking them off the map. All the while the people of Capital live the completely alien lives based on their superior technologies and body alterations. You have to have literally not understood the show to think it wouldn't qualify as sci-fi lol.
It's more like a capital with slave cities/camps. The capital is the gather point of resources while these slave camps are kept at the lowest level of technology to keep them productive. It kind of doesn't qualify as sci-fi because the level of technology doesn't really matter and the advanced technology that exists doesn't impact the story. The story could have been in 1200 AD without altering the core plot.
Dune is classic Science Fiction because it fully extrapolates from the genesis "what if" that so many of the old Sci-Fi stories did... "What if we lived on a planet that was one gigantic desert?" And everything flows from there. However because of the scope, I think that it better fits into the "science fantasy" genre because modern sci-fi does not hand itself the same way that it did generations ago.
Lumi would like Old Man's War.
In general, Lumi's predictably wrong. But who the fuck could ever think The Hunger Games is sci-fi? Ooh, weird outfits and hairstyles, so sci-fi in my archery movie!
I see the Lemon Woman has no idea what sci-fi actually is about, but to be fair that goes for most people and I'm old enough to not bother correcting people anymore.
I'm not a sci-fi aficionado, but she stated Interstellar as what she would consider as one so I guess any commenters should debate what makes Interstellar sci-fi to her versus something like Dune not. I feel like a hard example like Interstellar should give enough into what she views as sci-fi focused on space.
No space magic in interstellar?
Apart from, you know, the 4D space aliens with time powers who live inside the blackhole
Cultural classic milestones of the genre like Terminator, Planet of the Apes, Alien, The Matrix, Back to the Future, and others went through a revolving door of being considered sci-fi and then not, like, a minimum of three times over the course of 12 minutes.
I hope she never leaves entertainment for the sake of the patience and mental well-being of the fellow engineers that would have to suffer the constant contradictions and cognitive dissonance in whatever project they were working on.
Tell me you haven't read the expanse without telling me you haven't read the expanse
Star trek, star wars, battlestar galáctica, literary countless options but theres so many its a pop culture reference redundante
Pippa and Lumi on the L-take farming race
Project Hail Mary, best near future hard SF in space in decades.
I disagree, the reality and the size of space don't necessarily have an impact on a science-fiction story. You can tell any story you want, it's all about the characters, the world building and the setting. See on the TV side with Babylon 5, The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica or classic Star Trek (from TOS to Enterprise).
Space sci-fi wtf, get me a food sci-fi
Lumi is just mad that a story usually has a personal story and sci-fi has a story in it. She probably reads textbooks and non-fiction as "science fiction"
Book genres are publishing/marketing tool to get a book on the same shelf as another book, and sell to dum-dums that want the same stuff they already like without experiencing new or nuanced stories. For instance, they seek the "Space" shelf.
Lumi needs to read Children of Time
I have no idea if Lumi has read it, but I feel she'd both be angered by and fascinated by "The Killing Star" by Pellegrino and Zebrowski. It's got a really annoying subplot in it that took the story in a really bad direction for me, butt he hard sci-fi in it might be her thing.