Pershing vs. T-34: Korea 1950
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- The Battle around the Pusan Perimeter during 1950 saw a showdown between the relatively untried American Pershing tank and the battle-hardened North Korean T-34/85. Neither had encountered each other before, but the outcome would establish who had the best armour during the rest of the Korean conflict, with important consequences. Find out the winner...
Dr. Mark Felton is a well-known British historian, the author of 22 non-fiction books, including bestsellers 'Zero Night' and 'Castle of the Eagles', both currently being developed into movies in Hollywood. In addition to writing, Mark also appears regularly in television documentaries around the world, including on The History Channel, Netflix, National Geographic, Quest, American Heroes Channel and RMC Decouverte. His books have formed the background to several TV and radio documentaries. More information about Mark can be found at: en.wikipedia.o...
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Disclaimer: All opinions and comments expressed in the 'Comments' section do not reflect the opinions of Mark Felton Productions. All opinions and comments should contribute to the dialogue. Mark Felton Productions does not condone written attacks, insults, racism, sexism, extremism, violence or otherwise questionable comments or material in the 'Comments' section, and reserves the right to delete any comment violating this rule or to block any poster from the channel.
Credits: RUclips Creative Commons; WikiCommons; Google Commons; Mark Felton Productions
Sources: 'Korean War Battles: the T-34 and American T-26 Pershing at Obong-ni', Warfare History Network; 'T-34-85 vs M-26 Pershing' by Steven Zaloga.
The Korean war deserves more attention
There is an old saying: "If it's a fair fight, then your tactics suck!"
One of the most interesting things about tank warfare in Korea was that the Sherman did better than the T-34. It pretty much puts the myths of the Sherman being useless and the T-34 being the best tank of WW2 to rest.
I'm a bit perplexed by all of the comments saying that this is an unfair comparison, as if these were RUclipsrs making a "comparison video". It's a historical video showing what happened the first time these tanks actually faced each other in combat. There are comments which seem to suggest that the Americans should have put Shermans up against them instead, just to be fair about it.
It's almost like people can't differentiate between YT and reality any more.
Well it was basically an ambush by the M26s, which is why it is a bit unfair to make big statements about which tank was better.
If it had been the T-34s set up on the road firing into a column of M26s driving towards them then the T-34s would have almost certainly have won just as easily as the M26s did in reality. And it would be equally unfair to then call the T-34 the superior tank.
I have no doubt that the M26 is the better tank but this scenario only really shows that the Americans had better army organisation and training.
i hope this was a troll
that's the truth
So many youtube armchair experts.
@@mig0150 M26 was superior, it wasn't an ambush, it was a piercing attack that got stopped.
You would have flat ground and a timer to be fair? I could had you a lightsaber and I bet John Paul Jones would kill you with his issued saber.
gtfo
I don't think people understand war isn't fair.
"T34 vs M26 isn't fair"
War Isn't Fair.
Get over it.
I love the Pershing's design........it's fantastic, just awesome
Sohom Chatterjee it the First generation of the Patton series.
The suggestion that the M46 Patton was somehow inferior to the M26 Pershing is very misleading. The M46 was not inferior to the M26. In fact, the M46 was identical to the M26 in both firepower and protection, as it was simply an M26 with a more powerful engine and improved transmission, along with some other minor improvements. The 1,160 M46 and M46A1 tanks produced were manufactured by converting existing M26 tanks. The M46 was more mobile than the M26, due to its more powerful engine, and this proved to be a significant advantage in the mountainous terrain of the Korean peninsula, with its only real disadvantage being that it consumed more fuel. A survey done in 1954 identified a total of only 119 tank versus tank actions in the Korean War, with about 50% of those involving M4A3E8 Sherman tanks. The M26 was involved in 32% of the actions and the M46 was involved in only 10% of the actions. If the differences in the kill to loss ratios of the Pershing and Patton prove anything at all, it is that kill to loss ratios are simply not reliable as an indication of the relative capabilities of the vehicles when the sample sizes are that small. What is far more telling than those ratios is the fact that all M26 tanks were withdrawn from Korea during 1951, while the M46 and M4A3E8 tanks remained in frontline service in Korea for the rest of the conflict. The limited mobility of the M26, along with the extreme rarity of tank versus tank actions after November of 1950, made the M26 the least useful of the three types under the prevailing circumstances of the conflict after 1950.
Why is everyone acting like he is just comparing it's a historical video tf
ohhh now i gotta ask for Centurions in Korea pretty please
Me, too!
The centurion was arguably the best tank in the Korean War
It came to Korea after this action took place and proved itself to be a very good tank. Have never heard its kill ratio but it should be pretty high. Only reason it's not mentioned is that it was not in use at the time on this engagement this was a us marine operation and their tank force.
@@willmarcheselli1986 At the end of WW2, the Brits produced the Comet tank.
It saw limited action for obvious reasons, and served as the basis for the excellent Centurion.
BY far the best tanks in korea. Now if the had T-54s i'd say otherwise.
Kids whose only combat experience is on a keyboard are all saying, "Dude, like, Pershing against T34? Like that is so unfair! Who did the match balancing on that?"
I have news for you kids. . . .This is called 'history' and 'reality' and neither of these are fair nor were they ever intended to be so. It actually happened that way in Korea. Stupidity on the internet astounds me, it really shouldn't.
Why you defend America though? South Vietnam?
Obviously in games t-34 is weaker than those pershings, bruh the answer is biting you already.
It's a fair point but the title of the video of T-34-85 vs. Pershing kind of implies this line of thinking. The title wasn't the Pusan Perimeter tank battles, which would be a more history-oriented title...
Also the T34 had 80 percent casualties when armor was pierced
The T34 wasn't built for survivability. Most T34s didn't even have driver seats.
Camping Pershings spamming gold rounds
How to overcome Russian bias? Dab that #2 key! 😁
Don’t you hate when a noob camper finishes the game and brag around he had 44% WR.
Gold chucking noobs. Pz uninstall. Alt-F4. :D
The British Centurion's did very well in Korea too!
Kim Jong Un voted this down.
Another great film👍
More stuff on Korea would be appreciated though👌
Thank God, Korea is such a breath of fresh air considering the over saturation of WW2 stuff out there. Nicely done.
There was never any doubt that the T26E3 Pershing Tank was better than the T-34/85
A “Fair” fight is when you win, period! War has simple rules, defeat the enemy with the least amount of losses.
A lot of the people whining about this being an unfair match are the exact same people who sit there and trash U.S. Armor by saying that the M4 Sherman wasn't a match for tanks like the Tiger in a head-on engagement. Pay them no mind.
Those T-34 will be fighting in conflicts around the world for ever.
Technically the T-34's not on the same planet as the Pershing, but you'd have to also wonder at the discrepancy between the training of the Americans versus the N Koreans.
The U.S.
Were Marines so I could bet a pay check. Training was a world apart.
And like Marines,
They stayed in the middle of the road. As as much as a challenge, as to insure the road was blocked.
One way or another, No enemy tanks were getting thru.
The mission complete at all cost.
Very good point, the Korean crew training was see 1 do 1 teach 1
Now if thy wouldve been up against experienced Soviet crews, different story, although the T26 is a tank from a different era compared with the T34
You also have to remember most of these American troops were not the veterans of ww2, most of which were no longer needed in service and were living out a peaceful life in America. The men who fought in Korea were green recruits that barely missed out on ww2
In terms of combat ability the M26 and T-34-85 are about equal with the Pershing having a the advantage at being able to kill a T-34 from any combat range(T-34 needed to be within 500 meter to pen a M26 frontally) while the T-34 was far superior to the Pershing in speed(56kph ~16hp/T vs 40kph ~11hp/T)
@@ODSTOninersIxTwO The Pershing's front plates were mostly immune to the 85mm, with the exception of lucky shots (like one which hit an M46's towing lug and was directed downward, perpendicular to the plate.) Meanwhile, the Pershing's HVAP round could easily punch straight through a T34 lengthwise.) The T34/85, a stopgap design, was simply outclassed by the Pershing (which was intended to fight the Tiger I).
StillThis channel is the best gift of 2018 and Christmas isn't even here yet.
Tank duels, uboat mysteries, missing planes, chronicling famous leaders and less known soldiers. This channel is the dream of everyone who is interested in 20th century history. It's almost like watching the old history channel but maybe even better.
You should make a video about the use of helicopters during the Korean war.
My great uncle was a tank commander in the Korean war, 1st Tank Battalion, 1st Marine Division.
So? Is this your claim to fame?
Mark M I wish I could provide you with more details about his life. His company and his service dates. He moved to Mississippi in the 60s and his family stayed so I have no one to talk to about him. Based upon his medals and family stories he served in Korea and the Vietnam war with the 1st Marine Division as a tank commander, although I do not know how much time he has logged in an actual tank as his final rank before retirement was Lt. Col. Happy mate?
Mark. I spoke with my gramps at xmas dinner tonight about his time as a tank commander in Korea. He served in a Sherman M4a3 with the Lord Strathcona's of the Canadian Army. He did see T34s there but they were far away and he never engaged them. The artillery took them out from long range, but he said at night they could be seen moving around. He said the Sherman was great and Hella reliable. I believe their job in Korea was to sit on a hill to take fire from the Chinese so they US airforce to could then smoke their positions. He also served in a centurion when stationed in Germany and loved that tank. Hated the Patton tank said it was a piece a shut as he had a chance to test it as I believe the CDN fires were choosing between the two tanks. It was really cool to hear all of his first hand knowledge about these fighting vehicles and how much they hurt your back. Also said the Yanks were shot drivers compared to the Canadians and saw one corporal have his rank stripped on the spot for smashing his gun into the tank in front of his.
I have to say I don't make comments on RUclips much but you're short videos on a multitude of subjects are excellent sir. Out of all of the RUclipsrs that I have seen that make short videos about historical things I'm different aspects of life, War Etc yours are thoroughly done that you can relay a good point great information over a short period of time. Keep the video's coming. All the best from Metro Detroit Michigan USA
I've always liked the Pershing T-26 tank. It looks balanced compared to the Sherman
Three thumbs down from North Korean tankers.😛
Probably commi chines.
North Korean don't have Internet or youtube bahaha
dead NK tankers that tanked that is
Because north korean tankers are dumb
149 actually
The film from 1:19 is about the last Panther in Cologne.
Why did the M46s perform so much worse?
Well placed powerful armor under well motivated commanders are the winning factor for tank battles
And this video proves it
At that time it’s a fight for survival for UN troops in Korea
For its day the Pershing was a decent fighting vehicle.
Another Superb Video Mr Felton....Thank You So Much!!!
My only real beef would be that by 1950, the T26 had already been accepted and type classfied as M26. Regarding the unfair comparison comments, this is what actually transpired, so get over it. You always want to have overmatch against your enemy's equipment.
My great grandfather fought in this war and I just find it so fascinating learning about one of Americas forgotten wars
Overwhelming force and extreme, efficient violence, this is what wins battles. Whatever the enemy has, you bring more, faster, stronger and better. And use it better than them.
Every military commander since the first ever battle that they consider a fight fair if all their men come back and the enemy’s don’t.
Hey could you do a video on the Baltic Forest Brothers its a story with very small coverage
Yes indeed
Kingdom of Italy ball that is an amazing story, where two sides who opposed each other joined to fight against communism.
If he would such would be intetesting video.
I personally know some of the Estonian Forest Brothers.
You're a great narrator.
I like the trumpets in your opening too.
Seems quite nostalgic.
I thoroughly enjoyed your videos your succinct and accurate in your description of the events. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Just remember that the T-34 was a good tank but it was far from any kind of wonder weapon. The Soviets by their own accounts claim they lost over 70% of all "medium" tanks built. Medium tank of course refers to the T-34. So with over 50 thousand T-34s built that means they lost 35,000 T-34's on the eastern front. I would never have given the T-34 a chance against the Pershing
One point. The HVAP (High Velocity Armor Piercing) SHOT, not shell. Just as the alternate AT round was the T33E1 shot, a 90mm drop chilled forged steel shot. Second, four of the M46 losses concerned tanks loaded on rail cars which could not be removed before being overrun by CCV forces.
Dude, the "T26" designation was applied to the test models and early prototypes that were the first ones sent to Europe near the end of WWII. The designation was officially replaced by M26 before that war ended and over five years before the Korean War started.
"Technical Sergeant" was an Army rank suggesting the Pershings were Army and attached to the Marines.
Cab you explain the use of tanks as artillery in Korea? I've seen the footage of tanks shooting at extreme angles at something.
Love to hear about more Korean war stuff. Keep em commin!
M26, not T26. T26 was the prototype. The M26 Pershing was the production model.
The T-34/85 was succesful in the first part of the war because the Allies only had M24 Chaffee light tanks deployed in Korea.
The T-34 was comparable to the Sherman. Pershing was comparable to Tiger and Panther. So the Pershing totally outclassed the T-34. Which resulted in very one-sided battles between M26 and T-34.
The M46 Patton was essentially an upgraded M26 with a better engine, as the original M26 was underpowered. It had less kill ration because it was introduced much later in the war and at much lower quantity.
The M26/M46 fought alongside the M4A3E8 Sherman "Easy Eight'.
The Sherman also outperformed the T-34/85 in combat. Both could penetrate each others armor at engagement ranges. But the Sherman's better optics meant that it could hit its target first.
This comparison is in a way unfair. But in another way it is fair. Because after WW2 the M26 design (a powerful quality heavy armored tank killing tank) became the basis for US tank designs to follow. The T-34 (simple tank build in huge quantities to overwealm opponent) because the basis for Russian tank designs to follow. This is seen even today with western tanks, being heavier, better protected and build for quality rather than quantity, than Russian tanks, which are build for quantity rather then quality.
Read Osprey Publication book M26/M46 Pershing.
NationalSniper Pretty sure, t54s,t55s, t64s all had comparable armor to their contemporary counterparts. It wasn’t until the abrams that russian tank design lagged.
The real difference between Western tanks and soviet tanks is gun depression...
The M26 had the M3 90mm cannon but the M46 had the M3A1 which was higher velocity and was better suited for the new M348 HEATFS shells that the US army introduced.
NationalSniper T-34-85 wasn’t even in production in the first part of the war - get your basic facts right. It was T-34 with 76-mm cannon that was around back then. T-34-85 was the russian panic answer to Tigers (appeared at the russian front at the end of 1942) and Panthers (1943), so it was only around for the last two years of war.
As for the comparison I agree with many people here and you as well- narrator saying that T26 were superior because they killed T-34-85s in an ambush is a pretty stupid selection of the facts to look at and draw conclusions from those. Nonetheless they got it right, - T26 was largely a post-war tank, just like the British Centurion, although they appeared right at the end of war, and of course they were far superior.
The Pershing tanks shown were t26. You can tell by the gun and tracks. He's not wrong
This isn't even a comparison video. It's about what happened the first time the two met in the field, with information on the two sprinkled in.
NOOOOOO!! YOU CAN'T JUST MATCH PERSHING AGAINST T-34!! THAT'S UNFAIR.
haha 90mm cannon goes boom and T-34 goes kaboom
The Mark Felton`s voice sounds like "robot voice "perfected .
The Shermans didn't do too bad, either, sounds like. Not as good, but still something like a 2:1 kill ratio, if I understood correctly.
I would have been surprised if the Pershing did not defeat the T-34, as it was an older design. It is surprising M-46 Patton wasn't better.
Did you ever work on any TV documentaries for like the history channel or the BBC? Because I swear you have the perfect voice for it
Damn, 7 90mm Shells against a T-34-85, and crew still bailed
Pershing all the way!
The reason the Marines got the newer M26s is because the M26 had some reliability issues mostly revolving around it having the same engine as the M4 while being around 10 tons heavier
Some history that I didn't know. Thanks, Mark
The M4 sermon or jumbo Sherman with the 76 would’ve been easily able to destroy t34s
What was wrong with the Patton tank? I thought it was to be a replacement for the m26?
I always wondered how American armor faired against Soviet steel in Korea. This is amazing!
Another Great History lesson from Mark of the deployment and use of the Pershing. Now for those who want Technical Videos about all the tanks mentioned here and many others. Head over to the "Chieftains Hatch". A one Nicholas Moran, former Irish Guard/U.S. Army Armor officer and now Historian and Archaist for War Gaming, puts out the straight dope on any and all things Armored! ^_^
Your videos are so informative. I really enjoy watching all of them.
Much like communism. The T-34/85 was outdated.
Any weapon outdated or not can still kill
Pershing and T-34 is not fair comparasion, 1 is heavy tank other is medium tank, this would be Russian equivalent to Pershing, this one was their WW2 heavy tank, made with same purpose as Pershing to be answer for Tiger/Panther. Soviets also struggled with them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS_tank_family
I expected that comment to trigger snowflakes, not armchair tankers...
...then again, what's the difference?
@@Dotalol123 The IS series(51 tons) were not true heavy tanks neither. As by the time they were deployed tanks grew in size. The T34(30 tons) faced off against PZIII-IV(28 tons) until the Tiger showed up in 42. The panther at 50 tons was classified as a medium tank. The only army to field heavy tanks of that time period were the Germans. The Tiger(63 tons) and Tiger II(77 tons) were the heavy tanks. Post WWII the concept moved to MBT by the 1960s. The Americans had the heavy tank M103(65 tons) in the 50s but they dropped it for the M60(50-55 tons). Pulling the last M103 off the line in 1974. Eventually the MBT in the US morphed into the M1 Abrams at up to 73 tons. The Pershing was by WWII standards a medium tank. It was 4 tons less heavy than a Panther. The M4 Sherman topped out at 42 tons for reference.
IS-3
The T34/85 is an older medium tank compared to the Pershing who was a late WWII heavy tank. If the North Korea would have had IS-2 or IS-3 it would be a different story. It is also in general the case that the attacking side looses more tanks than the defenders. The defender can dig in his tank en can be camouflaged.
The pershing was a medium tank and it wasn't in Korea very long anyway before being replaced by shermans
Very interesting! I knew that the Pershing was a formidable tank but... damn, that's a lot!
As an aside, once the T34s disappeared from the battlefields the Americans preferred to use the Sherman as its lower weight, size and logistics requirements made it more useable on Korean terrain. That is a useful point in the discussion on whether the US would have been better off in Normandy with the Pershing had it been available.
This leaves one question..what would have happened if the Pershings would have run against a line of T 34/85 s like that or into an ambush ?
I spent 5 years active army and 25 in the reserves. I read a lot about WW II and the Korean War and this is the first I have heard of this. I had read of Task Force Smith and the ineffectiveness of hand served anti tank weapons of the day. I thought North Korean tanks were largely taken out by artillery and close air.
Excellent! Could you do something on the Battle of Imjin from the Gloucestershire regiment perspective please?
The T-34s were basically caught in what amounts to an ad-hoc ambush against an opponent with an arguably superior gun. It should be no surprise that they got destroyed.
MatoVuc and superior armor
Another excellent video Mark! Thank you so much.
the kill ratios are interesting but info on how many tanks of each kind were in theater would add clarity to the data
James Barca ...RUclips was first pitted against Reality almost immediately upon YT launch. Reality, in essence, was the forerunner, paving the way for all imagined thereafter. However, when the two first met on the battlefield, it was quite a surprise. Although Reality was the stuff of actual substance, YT quickly went into mass production to the point where lackluster Reality took quite a beating. The war is not expected to end anytime soon, and there is no 'behind the lines' at all.
really appreciate your very informative videos
The 4th T34 was singing I'm so ronree
Very interesting like all the productions by Mark Felton, but not a surprise regarding the results of the combat. You can compare the Pershing with german tanks like the Panther or Tiger I. A battle between these tanks and T-34/85s should have seen the same results under similar circumstances.
To be fair to the tank, they stumbled into an ambush against American tanks supported by infantry, both of who knew they were coming. From your description, there didn't seem to be North Korean infantry supporting the T-34s. A T-55 or a T-62 in a similar situation would brew up too.
The T-34/85 is still definitely inferior to the Pershing. Not just because of this engagement though.
Absolutely!!!
Fantastic Commanding Narrative voice Mark!!
Shocking how the Pershing's gun could penetrate so easily the T34-85 but at the same time the T34 even when hit had some life left in it, even if very short.
The only reason why the T34s failed to perform is because they lacked the crew skill "brothers in arms", while the Pershing crews all had the "sixth sense" skill. In this way, during the battle the Pershing crew could see the red light bulb go off and the world of tanks voice, "they've spotted us" go off. I think if NK had access to the T34 Rudy, or other premium tier 6 T34 tanks they may have had a better chance. Plus, remember that the Pershing entry level is a tier 8 tank so that is a bit imbalanced ... but fair according to matchmaker.
This isn't a comparison video -- it's the history of the first known conflict between T-34s and Pershings. That's it. People should stop acting like it's a bad comparison because it isn't made to be a comparison at all.
We would like you to please create a detailed video describing the Patton tank in Korea. Why did it perform poorly?
I’m a little surprised Dr Felton, as you didn’t include an account of the Churchill’s performance during the Korean conflict. Can we assume that a video on just that subject is in the works?
Another excellent video of high standard. Thanks.
another great video , thank you
to anybody saying this is unfair, since when did T34 become superior, Soviets only rely on numbers. A lone Soviet T34 cant do anything.
Very interesting. Thank you for this.
Mark please tell us what the title is of this wonderful music that you use at the beginning of your video in this case this specific video as I think this is the best intro music you use. This music sounds like Army heroism to me. Thanks much and please kindly give me your answer?
Fascinating.
This is one the smartest LTs I've seen sense Audie !
mUh t 34 85..
Not sure why comments are saying you shouldn't compare T-34-85's to Pershing tanks. War isn't fair. It's about getting the upper hand. Yes, the Soviet tanks were older and under equipped. Granted, but war doesn't care. This was basically just showcasing that already known fact and I think it did a good job of it.
Thx for your great work small videos but very rich in informations 👍👍👍👍
You see the pershings are a tier 8 tank and the T34-85 is only tier 6.
This is to be expected.
Understood that referance
Good footage from The Forgotten War. The T-34 had finally met its match.
The lessons learned in WW2 with the shermans inadequate gun...culminated to the development of the high velocity 90mm gun on the Pershing...They really got that gun Right....The result ....Holes right through the frontal Armor of the T34 and its cast steel Turret....Designed to punch holes in the massive Armor plate on the Tiger and king Tiger...meant the T-34 was easy Pickens for the Pershing Punch...
Love your presentations Mark.
The Russians new how to use the T34 effectively, the North Koreans didn't so that added to our advantage.
Did the russians who trained the North Koreans to use the T34 all of a sudden forget how to drive and use their vehicles?
Well , the Russian loss ratio was appalling compared to US loss ratio ; concerning T's; P's and S's vs German Armor.
iirc , the North German 1st pincer at Kursk saw 1k P4s & Tiger 1s against +3k T34s
with : 17 German tanks lost against Soviets 620 T24s lost
German offensive , Soviet counteroffensive (values are +/-)
Such disastrous losses were never encountered on the US side , although US would still loose big time against trained SS or Wehrmacht tank units (in general)
... not sure about UK
Love your channel
Thanks Mark!
MARINE marksmanship rules the day.
GET SOME !