As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!" I love the way you take things in stride. Problem uncovered...solution figured out! Great attitude! I pray all goes well!
Great video Mads, you are the forever optimist. I know real life after the record button stops isn’t always so rosy, your optimism is really what keeps me coming back either way:) Happy Tuesday!
Hi Mads, You could look into making your own plastic tank, you already have a good hot air gun, a little plastic welding, then use through bulkhead fittings for your hoses to attach to. Then you could also use pvc piping in a lot of places to get rid of all the hose. Simply apply a little heat to where you bend. Would make a good episode too. Cheers
Your boat was built on a Friday afternoon. I laughed so hard I spit up my coffee onto my keyboard. Omg to funny Mads. I am off to buy a new keyboard :).
$0.02 (USD), but if you plan to get a water maker I would recommend to leave out one of the tanks. The tank that you are about to cut would be ideal. Then replace it with a much smaller plastic day tank that pumps from the other tank. Feed the water maker into the larger tank with a bypass valve to the day tank. In the case you get bad water you could clean the day tank, treat it, shut off the pump from the main water tank and use the bypass valve to run the water maker to the day tank. In the extra space you could place the hardware for the water maker.
A water maker should NEVER be plumbed directly into a main storage tank, and should always feed a dedicated collection and test tank, and be configured with control interlocks on redundant valves. (Water maker can't be turned on unless the correct valves are closed kind of thing.) If you have a malfunction in the water maker, the last thing you want is it to be pumping into your primary storage and contaminating your reserve. Personally I also wouldn't feel all that comfortable being out on a boat for any length of time without redundant water storage. (And remember, if your water tanks can free flow between each other by default, they're not redundant tanks, they're a single tank with a really weird shape.)
What about just carrying 5 gallon water jugs besides the main water tank? You can still store them in the same space, and it gives you some flexibility, especially if the jugs are collapsible. They may not be pretty to look at, but give you more options, and may be more practical too. Also cheaper, easier to replace, etc.
Mads if you leave that wet core in place it will drive you crazy over the years knowing that it is there, especially after all the trouble you went through to replace the deck core. I say replace the sections that are wet and also check the surrounding grid section members for wetnesses now and be assured for years to come that you have done all you can during the rebuild. Plus we then get to see you chop up more parts of Athena :)
I would seriously consider drilling into ALL of the structural member & checking for moisture. It'll be fairly simple to patch up the fibreglass after & you'll know for sure that everything is either dry or replaced.
Mads, have you considered putting in 2 smaller tanks rather than one large one? You might find smaller tanks more available AND it solves the problem of no baffles in plastic tanks. Also, you have the choice to only fill one tank unless you are planning a long trip. As far as the "floor"is concerned, I would replace it since it is certainly part of the structure that keeps the hull from flexing due to keel loads. I imagine you have enough foam core left over to make a core for a structural fiberglass floor.
That's what I was thinking....even back in the summer when he was taking the readings. It seemed to me like there might be standing water - or more water collecting during each rain.
No bet, :) any standing or trapped water is going to travel through the hull like a desert lizzard's micro capillary water net. Tho i will bet, there's more, that just hasn't been seen yet.
There are plenty of hindsight lessons to be learned. I can't help but think that Mads should have done a complete strip out of the salon when he had the chance, instead of launching into painting the interior. Until every external hole is sealed any work on the interior could be ruined.
Mads, I recommend making sure there are some baffles in your new tanks. They’ll prevent the liquids from sloshing around and will help with stability while underway not to mention less noise.
Mental note to myself: - make sure that whatever you install, you are always able to uninstall it again and have relatively easy access to what is hiding underneath. - when installing large things like tanks, have some edges or handles to be able to lift or handle these bulky things. Yet again a very great video. Can you see on the moisture readings from the hull that these areas inside where holding water?
Hi Mads another great update 👍with lots to interest and provoke deep meaningful thought.🤔 Firstly - as others have mentioned can you not fleet these tanks out through your new hatch? Second if the answer to the above is YES or you can get it out of the companion way hatch by removing all the woodwork then I would hold fast on purchasing new tanks. Surely you have stainless steel fabricators in Denmark - it must be cheaper to get these pressure tested, identify the weld defects and then repair them. Even better if you could get them to come to the boat and do the whole repair and test in situ (well you could do the testing - You can hire a machine to do that). With the right precautions (and a few fire extinguishers around) it is perfectly feasible to do a repair in situ - but a pressure test to identify the size and location of the leak(s) must be a first step. You could even do a bit of sanding on the tanks to make them more spiffy and appealing to the welder. ;-) Take a leaf out of Doug (SV Seeker) 's book and ask for help - I am sure someone will respond with the right kit and skills. Properly repaired tank will likely last another 30 years. Sorry for the rather lengthy post. We are on tenter hooks here - what is Mads going to find next?
So glad your plans for the weekend were altered and you found that water under the 2nd tank. I work as captain on a Ocean Alexander and have found 2 such areas where water can drain to but then will get trapped with nowhere to go unless the boat rolls in a seaway or gets so high it starts to spill over stringers.
Mads, I think the fiberglass on tank 1 is to protect it not to seal it. Even if tank 1 leaks it is better and cheaper to have it repaired. Have more inspection ports installed in the tops of both tanks, enough that you can reach all parts of the inside of the tanks for cleaning. Here is why, If you sail around more than just your local area you may get contaminated water, being able to visually inspect the inside of the first tank may keep you from pumping who knows what into the other tank. Stainless steel is a great container for water and it will not leach anything into the water. It also won't absorb anything making it possible to clean in an emergency. I would have the tanks inspected and tested and spend the rest of the plastic tank money on something better. Like more sandpaper. :D
How would that work. Isnt the outer hull sealed off from the inner hull? Could some water trapped in that sealed off space somehow find its way into the outer hull?
Movie Maker the bottom that area is the outer hull that the water is sitting in direct contact with. I freaked out when he pulled up the plywood mounting plate for the pump and was poking that gooey fiberglass as that was the outer hull but then he peeled it off and was only a piece of fiberglass used to bond the plate to the outer hull and not the hull itself.
Standing water the cause of high moisture readings on the outside of the hull? I think so. Crazy design choices on that boat. I believe a boat requiring a refit a good choice in that it gets you to inspect every part of it and gets you to know your boat better. This situation with your boat is no exception.
I would pressure test the 2nd tank and if it holds, clean it and use it. I believe you have shown a concern for all Warrior owners with those wet compartments.
I imagine anyone who owns a Warrior is hopefully wondering about the design, but I imagine it is something worth looking out for for any boat. I know I'll be paying extremely close attention to that issue here as I start shopping around for old hulls.
James Ford I was just thinking the same thing! Since Mads started working on Athena, worldwide warrior owners have been cursing on a weekly basis in a variety of languages!!!🤣😂🤣😂
There has to be an explanation on the lack drainage to the bilge. I am perplexed by your discovery here because anywhere where there is cold temps there is some level of condensation and there has to be access for this to get to the bilge. You already know the core has to be fixed sadly but what a stupid project to have to do for something so basic. Now you really have to look at everything with skepticism and really dig. Very glad you found it now for sure. The good thing is that this will be one hell of a solid boat by the time you are done. Thanks for showing you journey as always.
Can I suggest keeping the leaking tank? I know, I know. You don't want a tank leaking water, or anything else for that mater into your boat. I wouldn't either! You can get a liner material that seals the tank from the inside. OR! A rubber or vinal bladder that fits inside the old tank. I personally prefer the idea of poring a coating material in and letting it harden. Just a thought. An option if you will. Great video as usual. Love the "can do" attitude. 😎
Make your own tanks from fiberglass and epoxy. You are definitely able to. Make them in sandwich and use honeycomb as a core material. They will also last forever. Nice videos btw! Great light, great sound, always focus, no hand held and no zooming. It is a pleasure to watch! 99% of the U-tube community has a lot to learn from you. Your positivism makes me happy, and your Danish swearing tells me you are a human after all.
Hey Mads, love the videos! Those tanks will probably fit through the larger fore hatch if you can get them up in the V berth, plus you won't have to lift it as high at once
Mads, have you thought of making your own tank? On the web you will find people who "weld" up plastic for the tank. Look at some of the bus conversion sites to find out more. If you make your own you can get EXACTLY what you want.
Absolutely hilarious the way you presented the issues you found and caused (i.e. the pump hookup - I can relate to that perfectly!). I laughed so hard because I can relate to all the frustrations you discorvered. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to these videos every Sunday. Brilliantly done every week!
Amazing to see you just go for whatever action you think the repair will require, cutting things around like that would make me pause and think like 30 times. :-) I guess after all work you've dealt with you have the needed confidence nothing you cannot handle will come. I've been binge watching your Athena videos. Need to go through the older ones later. Inspiring! Good you found that standing water under the tank. Imagine the evaporation and smell that could bring in warm days (out of Denmark of course). Keep the videos coming and stay positive and strong. Thanks.
You don't have a clue how much respect I have for you. I would have send that boat to boat-heaven already... Be strong, my friend, the hours-days-years you will sail her, make you forget the work, disappointements and efforts you putted in it. ;)
Hey Mads, go with 2 new standard size plastic tanks. Just get the closes fit and get creative with the curved areas for storage lockers. I'm sure you probably checked the Vetus lineup. The money you save on a custom tank you could put towards a 12V water-maker !
Thanks dude _ I am in the throws of renovating an old Atlanta Viking 8.5. The project I have undertaken is very much inspired by your approach and I always eagerly await Sundays as there always seems to be some duality between our two projects. At the moment I have the exact same problems with bilge compartments underneath water tanks all boxed in and no access and no drain holes! Just like you I can't understand that approach at all. I know they are flooded as there is water seeping slowly out... you have just shown me how to deal with the issues and it helps to see you cope so well by being thorough! I can tell you that a cleaning product I use to get the bilge areas clean is 'Cif' a household cream cleaner sold all over Europe. It is excellent for this purpose and cheap, it clears away everything including diesel, rust stains and with a scrub even loose paint comes off. Thanks again for your influence.
You are one resilient chap - I am ashamed (being British) that British boat builders ever stooped to such low levels of build quality but your absolute drive to achieve excellence and your positive attitude win over every time. Your videos are entertaining and motivating - well done and look forward to the next adventure of Mads Meets More Mysteries!!
I am also British as a time served engineer company's are always looking to drive down costs, so they use unskilled labour ,I've just retired i'm glad I'm out of it,no body has pride in their work these days.
For what it's worth, if in your situation, rather than have a large custom tank built, I would install smaller tanks off the shelf. The advantage is that they would be less expensive and if a tank should become fouled, you have other tanks that should still contain potable water. You might even consider a bladder tank. Good work and best wishes, B.
Hi Mads, Love your videos, You could investigate flexible tanks. They have the advantage to keep the air away as they inflate and deflate. You can keep water longer time. I am using that on my boat for over 20 years. Never got a water leak. Vetus is selling them under many sizes.
Oh Mads, I know you want it all to be perfect, but every time you find another issue, my heart sinks. As much as I love your videos, I just want to see you go sailing now. I just hope that Eva is as patient as all heck! :-)
Mads, I know you haven't mentioned the moisture content of the hull for a long time having dried it out. However, given the wet discoveries under the water tanks, it would be interesting to see if the moisture content in those parts of the hull were any higher. If so, could you share that with us in an upcoming video.
Well done for checking that hidden compartment Mads, all that standing water will not have been helping the osmosis or moisture readings in the hull. As for the tank, it looks pretty good. I would take an angle grinder with a stainless steel brush head and clean it all up, and give it a good visual inspection. To test it, if you can rig something to hold 3psi pressure, say in the tank vent from a bike pump, you can then check for leaks with soapy water. if it passes this test, it will be good to go for another few years at least.
Hi Mads, Before cutting your water tank i would get a price a stainless welding a new tank floor on it. It might save you a few bucks and should kast you a long time as you have addressed your electrolysis issues which probably caused the tank failure in the first place. I love your channel mate TIM
Re your question about tank 2, clean and test but before refitting, redo all the plumbing so connections (the fill and vent) are easily accessed rather than hidden. Also sit the tank on hard rubber or silicon rather than bare wood. Maybe add a wifi enabled level sensor? Flow sensor on the pump outlet? :)
Pay the 1100 get plastic. The cross pieces are ribs and the lengthwise are stringers. In FG boats they are all the same construction. More modern construction uses a polyvinyl foam instead of wood. Wood rots. Brands are Economy Plate Divinylcell, Airex and Klegecell. Replacing the stringers and ribs is your call. I drill a large (2 to 4 inches ) diameter hole where the drain should be. If it is rotten back that far then replace the structure. When the new structure is finished I make a drain hole. I put a piece of PVC pipe in for the drain hole and install it with 5200. The structure will last 100 years. I have also seen and used PVC pipe as stringer and rib. It can be cut apart and heated to reshape. It can be flattened, bent, pieced, curved into any shape. It is cheep. It is permanent. It is structurally strong. When covered with FG and e-poxy it makes a rib or stringer system that will never rot for 1000 years. The PVC will outlast the foam. Neither are UV resistant. The sun will turn both to powder. I would never seal those chambers off. Put a hatch cover over each compartment and use each compartment for storage of something not used often maybe a water-maker would partially fit or that pump thing or pluming.
Thomas D Harrell, Has anyone to your knowledge used two part expanding foam as a possible structural component for the compression portion of laminate? I wonder if one could open the top of the rib, hollow out the wet wood, fill with foam, and recover with glass?
Re: the tanks. The stainless steel tanks can be cleaned, re-welded and galvanized. Plastic tanks only last 10 years before the get impregnated from contaminates in the water and then permeate a smell, and no matter how many times you clean it, nothing can be done. Just like the hoses hardening, so do the plastic tanks. Re: the wood frames, I doubt it will make a difference. Drill a few vent holes in the top of the frames, hook up your vacuum pump to the lower hole and suction the water out.
Thank you so much for the repeated belly laughs! Not at you, but the situation! I’m surprised you don’t have a bruised forehead from all of the ‘discoveries’ ! Seriously if you don’t laugh you would have to cry! You are a wonder. I adored your fan club drawing; mark the date and frame it for permanent exposure, “You got one of those?” You’re one up on everyone!!!!!
Eventhough the fibreglass is only 3mm thick, it is still the most important part of that floor (don't know whether that is the correct term). You have to consider that in order to deform both the plywood and the fibreglass need to deform. In terms of deformation per amount of force the fibreglass is much stiffer so will take all the load. Now in the case of a floor, its main purpose is to stop the hull from deforming inward. So basically when the hull "tries" to deform, it would need to elongate the top of the floor. The sides of the floor only exist to connect the hull with the upper plane. If you were to replace them you can use foam instead of plywood for the exact same reason.
Nice spelunking! Too bad you found all those design flaws. Or maybe I should very good that you found them. Old boats are a learning but fun experience. Speaking of experience, your words that plastic tanks should last forever may not quite be true. I have had to replace them myself because they usually fail around the inlet or outlet fittings. The way the plastic threads are fastened to the tank is by some sort of plastic welding process that is questionable to my way of thinking. When your fittings are threaded into them they flex quite a bit and may eventually leak. Please beware of this before you decide to change from stainless steel tankage. Thanks for the fun videos. You are doing a first rate rebuild! Looking forward to the next one!
Hi MadsTry Tanknologie in Hamburg. They made new water, diesel, and black water tanks for my Rustler. Hamburg is near enough for you to collect, or at least shipping would be cheaper than UK. They did a good job of my tanks.Regards,Bill
You know with all the video documentation on your boat projects, if / when you decide to sale you are sure to get top dollar. Keep it up you are getting so close.
I like one of the ideas below of removing the bottom 10mm (10 not 1) from the rusty tank and having a new ss base professionally welded in, cleaned and pressure tested. The tanks need to be secured, you sure would NOT want them rattling about the cabin in a knockdown half full of water! As far as the ribs go; I imagine that holesawing 2 or 3 +/- 75mm dia holes per rib, along each rib's horizontal centre line, would give you a fair indication of any rot, without losing any beam strength. Also like a viewers idea of a large/ish one near the current drain hole to show amount of rot penetration. One would need to seal the cut edges, of course.You could later use these holes for cabling or plumbing runs. Replace any rotten ribs, I think that a quick "patch job" will just haunt you in the future. Great vid, as always. It's something I look forward to each Monday.
Cutting up the tank - Jig saw or reciprocating will work but you will be fight vibration/flex in the tank walls. As crazy as it sounds, your small circular saw with a carbide tipped blade will work and go VERY quickly. I would not use my best blade, but it will work. I don't recall, but an angle grinder with the appropriate disc would also work. Last, start a decent size hole and use straight cutting aviation snips.
The removal of that tank should be relatively simple. Just rig a sling and yard it out from above by hand. I'm also sure that any local welding shop could manufacture one of them for a lot less than $1,100. Most of those shops are also able to line tanks with plastic too. I'd check into that for both tanks. I'd also look into that for the diesel tanks. I hope that your structural repairs go smoothly. Just be certain that you've stabilized the remaining structure before you remove any portion of it. Luck and enjoy.
I appreciate your dedication to your RUclips channel even when it would be easier to just skip filming and getting to work on your boat. Thanks and keep it up. Can you make your own custom water tank? Use a bladder and a wooden enclosure?
Hi Mads, Another great video thanks.......As for the water tanks there really is nothing better than Stainless. We have rubber bladders in our Catamaran however they never really fill properly and are difficult to inspect inside and clean out. We have 2 x 200 liter stainless diesel tanks which we recently removed and sent off for pressure testing and repair. This was relatively inexpensive compared to new tanks, even if they had to cut the bottom off your tank and replace it that would still be way less than a new tank.
Imagine the things that people never know when buying a used boat? Makes you think whether these highly paid engineers are worth all the money they're paid? Hmmm? I think you should go into boat building, after this experience you are probably more qualified then the real deal. You work is impeccable and it's a real pleasure to watch you work and think problems through! Thanks for being the inspiration that you are to the rest of us trying to slog through are projects. Two Thumbs Up!!!!
mads - stainless tanks are the best - not sure why you want plastic? the water tank needs the welds "pickled" , that is an acid solution that restores the anti corrosion properties of stainless where its been welded - great videos!
Given choice between plastic tanks and stainless I would choose stainless. Plastic tanks make the water taste funky. I learned that the hard way..... Also you may want to get a really cheep wet/dry shop vac. The make sucking the water and other sludge out of the bilge a lot less challenging.
Hi Mads, maybe you can build a tank by your own with fibreglass. Something about british boat building, I own a catalac catamaran from the 80`s I replace now all the iron steering gear that moves the rudders , by stainless steel.
I have two of these stainless tanks as well. They've also rusted (and failed) at the welds because whatever they used was not 304 stainless. I've heard lots of people sandblast the inside of the tanks and then have a 2 part epoxy painted on the inside so it will never rust again. Would probably be cheaper to do it this way, plus when water is in a plastic tank it tastes like plastic. Just my 2 cents!
good welder could cut the bottom of the tank out with a plasma torch and weld a new piece of stainless in. Probably cheaper than a new tank. Enjoy the videos!
Hi Mads, another great video, always educational to watch you discover and think out solutions to those little surprises. The question i have is, where did that water come from? In such a sealed up space, i'm thinking that it must be from the tank, no? On the plus side, you now now why your hull wasn't drying out, that water was most definitely osmosing. Have a great week!
Also, good job finding the waterlogged subframe. My take is you should rebuild them and glass them over. Drill some more cores' and see which ones should be remade. Go with some big solid wood members. Where are the keel bolts in relation to those . Have to be careful this is not part of the structure that supports the keel.
Did you test if the water in the compartments was fresh (rain) or salty (ocean) water? I have similar problems with a recently bought Viking 30 built in 1989...built in water & fuel tanks, now in need of inspection and possibly replacement and cannot get to them (argh!) plus limber holes either covered up or not sealed from water ingressing into the members. Luckily here in Perth, Australia, summers are usually dry and I'm gradually getting a consistently dry bilge. Love following your progress Mads. Such an inspiration. Thanks.
The wet crossmember between the stringers: I had one repaired. They used a 1 1/2 inch boring bit to drill some holes in the side. They then cut the top off and working between the holes and the top, extracted the rotten 3/4 inch plywood. They taped over the large holes and poured epoxy / microballons in the void. After 1/3 filling it, they pushed a piece of half inch plywood into the void and finished filling to the top. After it hardened they laid three layers of chopped strand over the top and painted.
Mads is it possible to purchase two standard sized plastic tanks to put in the same spot as the custom tank and just interconnect them together? Would that be undesirable? I really enjoy your show. It is hugely entertaining and very informative. Thank you for sharing your adventure.
I see no problem in doing a quick reverse-flush before connecting the pump up the 'right way' and draining the tank. Good engineering practice. Great video!
Wow, this process is fantastic! Love your approach and gumption when confronted with new obstacles! So, are you sure how the water got into the compartments under the 2nd tank? The leaky crimped hose? But did that lead to seeping into the floor core structure by the 1st tank? I suppose the designers might have thought there would be no water getting below the floor (short of a sinking and then who'd care), so weep holes seemed unneeded...a mystery! I saw a recomentation for flexible bag tanks...I wonder if there is a suitable technique for adding a sealing liner to an existing metal tank? If you chose to remove the tanks, could you construct a hoist on the cabin top and lift them through the open hatch? You really get us thinking! I am sure having viewed your ingenuityvia these videos will help me when I encounter similar problems on my much smaller retrofit project (21ft 1974 MacGregor Venture)! Cheers!
Wow, Their quality control was top notch. No wait, a notch in the stringers is what was needed. I would like to know what the original price was for a Warrior.
700 pounds would buy a LOT of jerry cans :) Glad you found the standing water, perhaps Warrior thought there would be no water on the INSIDE of their boats.... Cheers from PEI Canada, and congrats on your first piece of Fan Art!
How glad I´m to follow your videos.
I´m a 62 years old sailor from Brazil, and still learning with your videos.
Just go ahead.
No wonder your hull is drying out slowly... There is more water on the inside than there was on the outside!
As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!" I love the way you take things in stride. Problem uncovered...solution figured out! Great attitude! I pray all goes well!
First piece of fan mail! Woot! My kids and I also enjoy watching your channel together. They Are 5 and 6 years old. (They want a sailboat now)
Great video Mads, you are the forever optimist. I know real life after the record button stops isn’t always so rosy, your optimism is really what keeps me coming back either way:) Happy Tuesday!
Hi Mads,
You could look into making your own plastic tank, you already have a good hot air gun, a little plastic welding, then use through bulkhead fittings for your hoses to attach to. Then you could also use pvc piping in a lot of places to get rid of all the hose. Simply apply a little heat to where you bend. Would make a good episode too. Cheers
Your boat was built on a Friday afternoon. I laughed so hard I spit up my coffee onto my keyboard. Omg to funny Mads. I am off to buy a new keyboard :).
Mads another great video. Loved it and Clapped when you put the little girls picture up. Well Done!
$0.02 (USD), but if you plan to get a water maker I would recommend to leave out one of the tanks. The tank that you are about to cut would be ideal. Then replace it with a much smaller plastic day tank that pumps from the other tank. Feed the water maker into the larger tank with a bypass valve to the day tank. In the case you get bad water you could clean the day tank, treat it, shut off the pump from the main water tank and use the bypass valve to run the water maker to the day tank. In the extra space you could place the hardware for the water maker.
A water maker should NEVER be plumbed directly into a main storage tank, and should always feed a dedicated collection and test tank, and be configured with control interlocks on redundant valves. (Water maker can't be turned on unless the correct valves are closed kind of thing.)
If you have a malfunction in the water maker, the last thing you want is it to be pumping into your primary storage and contaminating your reserve.
Personally I also wouldn't feel all that comfortable being out on a boat for any length of time without redundant water storage. (And remember, if your water tanks can free flow between each other by default, they're not redundant tanks, they're a single tank with a really weird shape.)
What about just carrying 5 gallon water jugs besides the main water tank? You can still store them in the same space, and it gives you some flexibility, especially if the jugs are collapsible. They may not be pretty to look at, but give you more options, and may be more practical too. Also cheaper, easier to replace, etc.
Unless the tanks capacity is small, I would go with Perrys idea. But you should have at least 75 gallons (280 liters) imo.
Surprisingly amusing and technically fascinating ! 8 mm or 80 mm that is the question. Thank you to a very dedicated boat restorer.
You could store your water in the portions of the hull without drains, thereby saving the cost of a water tank. : )
That is cruel! But hilarious. Get rid of those tanks Mads!
Mads if you leave that wet core in place it will drive you crazy over the years knowing that it is there, especially after all the trouble you went through to replace the deck core. I say replace the sections that are wet and also check the surrounding grid section members for wetnesses now and be assured for years to come that you have done all you can during the rebuild. Plus we then get to see you chop up more parts of Athena :)
after finding the two spaces full of water, i'd be looking at ALL the members that contact those spaces....
I would seriously consider drilling into ALL of the structural member & checking for moisture. It'll be fairly simple to patch up the fibreglass after & you'll know for sure that everything is either dry or replaced.
After rotted transoms, the most common issue with power boats. I'd look there for advice on how to tackle.
I think your videos are great. After today's video I have given up my plan to buy and restore an old boat!
Sign me up for the "Oh Glorious Sanding Shirt" or maybe a "Pretty Dang Spiffy" shirt with a caliper or cable clip.
I would buy the pretty dang spiffy too!
I'm there for the pretty dang spiffy as well, sign me up
you are amazing. watching your videos make me happy!
Mads, have you considered putting in 2 smaller tanks rather than one large one? You might find smaller tanks more available AND it solves the problem of no baffles in plastic tanks. Also, you have the choice to only fill one tank unless you are planning a long trip. As far as the "floor"is concerned, I would replace it since it is certainly part of the structure that keeps the hull from flexing due to keel loads. I imagine you have enough foam core left over to make a core for a structural fiberglass floor.
It's almost as though those 80mm machine screws are 10 times the size of the 8mm ones.
That damned metric system!!
Great job! Looking forward to the next video. Fair winds!
How much do you Want to bet these hidden water pockets were slowing down the hull drying process???
That's what I was thinking....even back in the summer when he was taking the readings. It seemed to me like there might be standing water - or more water collecting during each rain.
No bet, :) any standing or trapped water is going to travel through the hull like a desert lizzard's micro capillary water net. Tho i will bet, there's more, that just hasn't been seen yet.
I was thinking the same thing.
There are plenty of hindsight lessons to be learned. I can't help but think that Mads should have done a complete strip out of the salon when he had the chance, instead of launching into painting the interior. Until every external hole is sealed any work on the interior could be ruined.
Mads, I recommend making sure there are some baffles in your new tanks. They’ll prevent the liquids from sloshing around and will help with stability while underway not to mention less noise.
WestFieldfasters... best shop ever, not sure my wife agrees with me though 😀thx Mads
Wow no wonder your keel couldn't dry out. Great job finding all the hiddy holes for water. Love the progress.
Mental note to myself:
- make sure that whatever you install, you are always able to uninstall it again and have relatively easy access to what is hiding underneath.
- when installing large things like tanks, have some edges or handles to be able to lift or handle these bulky things.
Yet again a very great video. Can you see on the moisture readings from the hull that these areas inside where holding water?
Hi Mads another great update 👍with lots to interest and provoke deep meaningful thought.🤔
Firstly - as others have mentioned can you not fleet these tanks out through your new hatch?
Second if the answer to the above is YES or you can get it out of the companion way hatch by removing all the woodwork then I would hold fast on purchasing new tanks. Surely you have stainless steel fabricators in Denmark - it must be cheaper to get these pressure tested, identify the weld defects and then repair them. Even better if you could get them to come to the boat and do the whole repair and test in situ (well you could do the testing - You can hire a machine to do that). With the right precautions (and a few fire extinguishers around) it is perfectly feasible to do a repair in situ - but a pressure test to identify the size and location of the leak(s) must be a first step. You could even do a bit of sanding on the tanks to make them more spiffy and appealing to the welder. ;-)
Take a leaf out of Doug (SV Seeker) 's book and ask for help - I am sure someone will respond with the right kit and skills.
Properly repaired tank will likely last another 30 years.
Sorry for the rather lengthy post.
We are on tenter hooks here - what is Mads going to find next?
Wow, you are dedicated! I salute you! Great videos!
oh glorious, glorious hindsight
So glad your plans for the weekend were altered and you found that water under the 2nd tank. I work as captain on a Ocean Alexander and have found 2 such areas where water can drain to but then will get trapped with nowhere to go unless the boat rolls in a seaway or gets so high it starts to spill over stringers.
Dude you are super patient and calm. i would freak out if the stringers are bad that's allot of work to fix.
Mads, I think the fiberglass on tank 1 is to protect it not to seal it. Even if tank 1 leaks it is better and cheaper to have it repaired. Have more inspection ports installed in the tops of both tanks, enough that you can reach all parts of the inside of the tanks for cleaning. Here is why, If you sail around more than just your local area you may get contaminated water, being able to visually inspect the inside of the first tank may keep you from pumping who knows what into the other tank. Stainless steel is a great container for water and it will not leach anything into the water. It also won't absorb anything making it possible to clean in an emergency. I would have the tanks inspected and tested and spend the rest of the plastic tank money on something better. Like more sandpaper. :D
You need to send a signed picture of you and Jökull to Yael your fan! It would make Yael day. You know you are teaching how to restore sailboats.
Well that explains why it took so long drying out the hull.
How would that work. Isnt the outer hull sealed off from the inner hull? Could some water trapped in that sealed off space somehow find its way into the outer hull?
Movie Maker the bottom that area is the outer hull that the water is sitting in direct contact with. I freaked out when he pulled up the plywood mounting plate for the pump and was poking that gooey fiberglass as that was the outer hull but then he peeled it off and was only a piece of fiberglass used to bond the plate to the outer hull and not the hull itself.
Haven't had net for a while. Looking forward to catching up!
Standing water the cause of high moisture readings on the outside of the hull? I think so. Crazy design choices on that boat. I believe a boat requiring a refit a good choice in that it gets you to inspect every part of it and gets you to know your boat better. This situation with your boat is no exception.
Its better to change all your tanks in plastic and not worry anymore rust in the future, you have done really good work on your boat more power to you
watching you with the water tank is a great taster of what's to come when the washing machine arrives
I would pressure test the 2nd tank and if it holds, clean it and use it. I believe you have shown a concern for all Warrior owners with those wet compartments.
I imagine anyone who owns a Warrior is hopefully wondering about the design, but I imagine it is something worth looking out for for any boat. I know I'll be paying extremely close attention to that issue here as I start shopping around for old hulls.
would hope everyone who owns a warrior will now be taking a VERY hard look to see if they have similar issues.....
Pressure test is the way to go. Either pressurize the tank or draw a vacuum, depending on what equipment you have available
Tim Hyatt I think you're going to see a whole lot of Warrior boats on the market soon and at fire sale prices.
James Ford
I was just thinking the same thing!
Since Mads started working on Athena, worldwide warrior owners have been cursing on a weekly basis in a variety of languages!!!🤣😂🤣😂
There has to be an explanation on the lack drainage to the bilge. I am perplexed by your discovery here because anywhere where there is cold temps there is some level of condensation and there has to be access for this to get to the bilge. You already know the core has to be fixed sadly but what a stupid project to have to do for something so basic. Now you really have to look at everything with skepticism and really dig. Very glad you found it now for sure. The good thing is that this will be one hell of a solid boat by the time you are done. Thanks for showing you journey as always.
Can I suggest keeping the leaking tank? I know, I know. You don't want a tank leaking water, or anything else for that mater into your boat. I wouldn't either! You can get a liner material that seals the tank from the inside. OR! A rubber or vinal bladder that fits inside the old tank. I personally prefer the idea of poring a coating material in and letting it harden. Just a thought. An option if you will. Great video as usual. Love the "can do" attitude. 😎
Make your own tanks from fiberglass and epoxy. You are definitely able to. Make them in sandwich and use honeycomb as a core material. They will also last forever.
Nice videos btw! Great light, great sound, always focus, no hand held and no zooming. It is a pleasure to watch! 99% of the U-tube community has a lot to learn from you.
Your positivism makes me happy, and your Danish swearing tells me you are a human after all.
Hey Mads, love the videos! Those tanks will probably fit through the larger fore hatch if you can get them up in the V berth, plus you won't have to lift it as high at once
Mads, have you thought of making your own tank? On the web you will find people who "weld" up plastic for the tank. Look at some of the bus conversion sites to find out more. If you make your own you can get EXACTLY what you want.
Absolutely hilarious the way you presented the issues you found and caused (i.e. the pump hookup - I can relate to that perfectly!). I laughed so hard because I can relate to all the frustrations you discorvered. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to these videos every Sunday. Brilliantly done every week!
Amazing to see you just go for whatever action you think the repair will require, cutting things around like that would make me pause and think like 30 times. :-) I guess after all work you've dealt with you have the needed confidence nothing you cannot handle will come. I've been binge watching your Athena videos. Need to go through the older ones later. Inspiring!
Good you found that standing water under the tank. Imagine the evaporation and smell that could bring in warm days (out of Denmark of course).
Keep the videos coming and stay positive and strong. Thanks.
With an old sailboat, there is always that one more thing to fix. Start putting her back together soon. Great video, good luck Mads.
You don't have a clue how much respect I have for you. I would have send that boat to boat-heaven already... Be strong, my friend, the hours-days-years you will sail her, make you forget the work, disappointements and efforts you putted in it. ;)
P.S. I enjoy it when you curse in your native language. I am learning so much. LOL I can now curse out my boss and he doesn't even know it. lol
Hey Mads, go with 2 new standard size plastic tanks. Just get the closes fit and get creative with the curved areas for storage lockers. I'm sure you probably checked the Vetus lineup. The money you save on a custom tank you could put towards a 12V water-maker !
I think it’s a good idea to get tank 2 out and test it to see if there is dripping ore not
Thanks dude _ I am in the throws of renovating an old Atlanta Viking 8.5. The project I have undertaken is very much inspired by your approach and I always eagerly await Sundays as there always seems to be some duality between our two projects. At the moment I have the exact same problems with bilge compartments underneath water tanks all boxed in and no access and no drain holes! Just like you I can't understand that approach at all. I know they are flooded as there is water seeping slowly out... you have just shown me how to deal with the issues and it helps to see you cope so well by being thorough! I can tell you that a cleaning product I use to get the bilge areas clean is 'Cif' a household cream cleaner sold all over Europe. It is excellent for this purpose and cheap, it clears away everything including diesel, rust stains and with a scrub even loose paint comes off. Thanks again for your influence.
You are one resilient chap - I am ashamed (being British) that British boat builders ever stooped to such low levels of build quality but your absolute drive to achieve excellence and your positive attitude win over every time. Your videos are entertaining and motivating - well done and look forward to the next adventure of Mads Meets More Mysteries!!
I am also British as a time served engineer company's are always looking to drive down costs, so they use unskilled labour ,I've just retired i'm glad I'm out of it,no body has pride in their work these days.
For what it's worth, if in your situation, rather than have a large custom tank built, I would install smaller tanks off the shelf. The advantage is that they would be less expensive and if a tank should become fouled, you have other tanks that should still contain potable water. You might even consider a bladder tank. Good work and best wishes, B.
Hi Mads,
Love your videos,
You could investigate flexible tanks. They have the advantage to keep the air away as they inflate and deflate. You can keep water longer time. I am using that on my boat for over 20 years. Never got a water leak. Vetus is selling them under many sizes.
I agree that you should test the second tank. Also, you might be able to connect 2 or 3 off-the-shelf tanks that fit in the space available.
Oh Mads, I know you want it all to be perfect, but every time you find another issue, my heart sinks. As much as I love your videos, I just want to see you go sailing now. I just hope that Eva is as patient as all heck! :-)
Mads, I know you haven't mentioned the moisture content of the hull for a long time having dried it out. However, given the wet discoveries under the water tanks, it would be interesting to see if the moisture content in those parts of the hull were any higher. If so, could you share that with us in an upcoming video.
Well done for checking that hidden compartment Mads, all that standing water will not have been helping the osmosis or moisture readings in the hull. As for the tank, it looks pretty good. I would take an angle grinder with a stainless steel brush head and clean it all up, and give it a good visual inspection. To test it, if you can rig something to hold 3psi pressure, say in the tank vent from a bike pump, you can then check for leaks with soapy water. if it passes this test, it will be good to go for another few years at least.
Hi Mads,
Before cutting your water tank i would get a price a stainless welding a new tank floor on it. It might save you a few bucks and should kast you a long time as you have addressed your electrolysis issues which probably caused the tank failure in the first place. I love your channel mate
TIM
Re your question about tank 2, clean and test but before refitting, redo all the plumbing so connections (the fill and vent) are easily accessed rather than hidden. Also sit the tank on hard rubber or silicon rather than bare wood. Maybe add a wifi enabled level sensor? Flow sensor on the pump outlet? :)
Having sanded my (much smaller) boat last summer with the exact same sander, I urgently require exactly this t-shirt!
Pay the 1100 get plastic.
The cross pieces are ribs and the lengthwise are stringers. In FG boats they are all the same construction. More modern construction uses a polyvinyl foam instead of wood. Wood rots. Brands are Economy Plate Divinylcell, Airex and Klegecell.
Replacing the stringers and ribs is your call. I drill a large (2 to 4 inches ) diameter hole where the drain should be. If it is rotten back that far then replace the structure. When the new structure is finished I make a drain hole. I put a piece of PVC pipe in for the drain hole and install it with 5200. The structure will last 100 years.
I have also seen and used PVC pipe as stringer and rib. It can be cut apart and heated to reshape. It can be flattened, bent, pieced, curved into any shape. It is cheep. It is permanent. It is structurally strong. When covered with FG and e-poxy it makes a rib or stringer system that will never rot for 1000 years.
The PVC will outlast the foam. Neither are UV resistant. The sun will turn both to powder.
I would never seal those chambers off. Put a hatch cover over each compartment and use each compartment for storage of something not used often maybe a water-maker would partially fit or that pump thing or pluming.
Thomas D Harrell,
Has anyone to your knowledge used two part expanding foam as a possible structural component for the compression portion of laminate? I wonder if one could open the top of the rib, hollow out the wet wood, fill with foam, and recover with glass?
Again a super interesting video, I really like it that you are always positive 🙂
Re: the tanks. The stainless steel tanks can be cleaned, re-welded and galvanized.
Plastic tanks only last 10 years before the get impregnated from contaminates in the water and then permeate a smell, and no matter how many times you clean it, nothing can be done. Just like the hoses hardening, so do the plastic tanks.
Re: the wood frames, I doubt it will make a difference. Drill a few
vent holes in the top of the frames, hook up your vacuum pump to the
lower hole and suction the water out.
Thank you so much for the repeated belly laughs! Not at you, but the situation! I’m surprised you don’t have a bruised forehead from all of the ‘discoveries’ ! Seriously if you don’t laugh you would have to cry! You are a wonder.
I adored your fan club drawing; mark the date and frame it for permanent exposure, “You got one of those?” You’re one up on everyone!!!!!
Eventhough the fibreglass is only 3mm thick, it is still the most important part of that floor (don't know whether that is the correct term). You have to consider that in order to deform both the plywood and the fibreglass need to deform. In terms of deformation per amount of force the fibreglass is much stiffer so will take all the load. Now in the case of a floor, its main purpose is to stop the hull from deforming inward. So basically when the hull "tries" to deform, it would need to elongate the top of the floor. The sides of the floor only exist to connect the hull with the upper plane. If you were to replace them you can use foam instead of plywood for the exact same reason.
Nice spelunking! Too bad you found all those design flaws. Or maybe I should very good that you found them. Old boats are a learning but fun experience. Speaking of experience, your words that plastic tanks should last forever may not quite be true. I have had to replace them myself because they usually fail around the inlet or outlet fittings. The way the plastic threads are fastened to the tank is by some sort of plastic welding process that is questionable to my way of thinking. When your fittings are threaded into them they flex quite a bit and may eventually leak. Please beware of this before you decide to change from stainless steel tankage. Thanks for the fun videos. You are doing a first rate rebuild! Looking forward to the next one!
Hi MadsTry Tanknologie in Hamburg. They made new water, diesel, and black water tanks for my Rustler. Hamburg is near enough for you to collect, or at least shipping would be cheaper than UK. They did a good job of my tanks.Regards,Bill
I'd go with new plastic tanks for both. The drainage stuff must be maddening!
As always good job
You know with all the video documentation on your boat projects, if / when you decide to sale you are sure to get top dollar.
Keep it up you are getting so close.
I like one of the ideas below of removing the bottom 10mm (10 not 1) from the rusty tank and having a new ss base professionally welded in, cleaned and pressure tested. The tanks need to be secured, you sure would NOT want them rattling about the cabin in a knockdown half full of water! As far as the ribs go; I imagine that holesawing 2 or 3 +/- 75mm dia holes per rib, along each rib's horizontal centre line, would give you a fair indication of any rot, without losing any beam strength. Also like a viewers idea of a large/ish one near the current drain hole to show amount of rot penetration. One would need to seal the cut edges, of course.You could later use these holes for cabling or plumbing runs. Replace any rotten ribs, I think that a quick "patch job" will just haunt you in the future. Great vid, as always. It's something I look forward to each Monday.
Cutting up the tank - Jig saw or reciprocating will work but you will be fight vibration/flex in the tank walls. As crazy as it sounds, your small circular saw with a carbide tipped blade will work and go VERY quickly. I would not use my best blade, but it will work.
I don't recall, but an angle grinder with the appropriate disc would also work.
Last, start a decent size hole and use straight cutting aviation snips.
The removal of that tank should be relatively simple. Just rig a sling and yard it out from above by hand. I'm also sure that any local welding shop could manufacture one of them for a lot less than $1,100. Most of those shops are also able to line tanks with plastic too. I'd check into that for both tanks. I'd also look into that for the diesel tanks.
I hope that your structural repairs go smoothly. Just be certain that you've stabilized the remaining structure before you remove any portion of it.
Luck and enjoy.
Hi Mads, that are bizar ideas of hidden treasures,.. I enjoy your videos every week again.
At the end of the ride, your boat will be a jewell....Rob
Dude your life is sooooo filled with sanding. This must have been a nice week
I appreciate your dedication to your RUclips channel even when it would be easier to just skip filming and getting to work on your boat. Thanks and keep it up. Can you make your own custom water tank? Use a bladder and a wooden enclosure?
Hi Mads, Another great video thanks.......As for the water tanks there really is nothing better than Stainless. We have rubber bladders in our Catamaran however they never really fill properly and are difficult to inspect inside and clean out.
We have 2 x 200 liter stainless diesel tanks which we recently removed and sent off for pressure testing and repair. This was relatively inexpensive compared to new tanks, even if they had to cut the bottom off your tank and replace it that would still be way less than a new tank.
Imagine the things that people never know when buying a used boat? Makes you think whether these highly paid engineers are worth all the money they're paid? Hmmm? I think you should go into boat building, after this experience you are probably more qualified then the real deal. You work is impeccable and it's a real pleasure to watch you work and think problems through! Thanks for being the inspiration that you are to the rest of us trying to slog through are projects. Two Thumbs Up!!!!
mads - stainless tanks are the best - not sure why you want plastic? the water tank needs the welds "pickled" , that is an acid solution that restores the anti corrosion properties of stainless where its been welded - great videos!
Outstanding I loved it
Well , here was a important lesson to be learned.
Might explain some of the moisture problems with Athena's hull way back. Anyway, great video again, thumb's up 👍.
Given choice between plastic tanks and stainless I would choose stainless. Plastic tanks make the water taste funky. I learned that the hard way..... Also you may want to get a really cheep wet/dry shop vac. The make sucking the water and other sludge out of the bilge a lot less challenging.
Nice drawing :)
For those who wanted to know what he cleaned the bilges with, the U.K version is called 'Sugr Soap'.
Hi Mads, maybe you can build a tank by your own with fibreglass. Something about british boat building, I own a catalac catamaran from the 80`s I replace now all the iron steering gear that moves the rudders , by stainless steel.
I have two of these stainless tanks as well. They've also rusted (and failed) at the welds because whatever they used was not 304 stainless. I've heard lots of people sandblast the inside of the tanks and then have a 2 part epoxy painted on the inside so it will never rust again. Would probably be cheaper to do it this way, plus when water is in a plastic tank it tastes like plastic. Just my 2 cents!
good welder could cut the bottom of the tank out with a plasma torch and weld a new piece of stainless in. Probably cheaper than a new tank. Enjoy the videos!
What a day!!! I feel like crying.....
Hi Mads, another great video, always educational to watch you discover and think out solutions to those little surprises. The question i have is, where did that water come from? In such a sealed up space, i'm thinking that it must be from the tank, no? On the plus side, you now now why your hull wasn't drying out, that water was most definitely osmosing. Have a great week!
Also, good job finding the waterlogged subframe. My take is you should rebuild them and glass them over. Drill some more cores' and see which ones should be remade. Go with some big solid wood members. Where are the keel bolts in relation to those . Have to be careful this is not part of the structure that supports the keel.
Did you test if the water in the compartments was fresh (rain) or salty (ocean) water?
I have similar problems with a recently bought Viking 30 built in 1989...built in water & fuel tanks, now in need of inspection and possibly replacement and cannot get to them (argh!) plus limber holes either covered up or not sealed from water ingressing into the members. Luckily here in Perth, Australia, summers are usually dry and I'm gradually getting a consistently dry bilge.
Love following your progress Mads. Such an inspiration. Thanks.
Good job you found that water trapped, it could've been there for another 20 to 30 years eeek 😬
SVC
The wet crossmember between the stringers: I had one repaired. They used a 1 1/2 inch boring bit to drill some holes in the side. They then cut the top off and working between the holes and the top, extracted the rotten 3/4 inch plywood. They taped over the large holes and poured epoxy / microballons in the void. After 1/3 filling it, they pushed a piece of half inch plywood into the void and finished filling to the top. After it hardened they laid three layers of chopped strand over the top and painted.
Have you seen the film Money Pit? They do end up with a nice place at the end.
Mads is it possible to purchase two standard sized plastic tanks to put in the same spot as the custom tank and just interconnect them together? Would that be undesirable? I really enjoy your show. It is hugely entertaining and very informative. Thank you for sharing your adventure.
I see no problem in doing a quick reverse-flush before connecting the pump up the 'right way' and draining the tank. Good engineering practice. Great video!
I have a Bosch GAS 20 LFC vacuum cleaner. It’s great for hooking up to a sander. Also made for sucking up water. Looks it would be perfect for you.
Wow, this process is fantastic! Love your approach and gumption when confronted with new obstacles! So, are you sure how the water got into the compartments under the 2nd tank? The leaky crimped hose? But did that lead to seeping into the floor core structure by the 1st tank? I suppose the designers might have thought there would be no water getting below the floor (short of a sinking and then who'd care), so weep holes seemed unneeded...a mystery!
I saw a recomentation for flexible bag tanks...I wonder if there is a suitable technique for adding a sealing liner to an existing metal tank?
If you chose to remove the tanks, could you construct a hoist on the cabin top and lift them through the open hatch?
You really get us thinking! I am sure having viewed your ingenuityvia these videos will help me when I encounter similar problems on my much smaller retrofit project (21ft 1974 MacGregor Venture)!
Cheers!
Wow, Their quality control was top notch. No wait, a notch in the stringers is what was needed. I would like to know what the original price was for a Warrior.
700 pounds would buy a LOT of jerry cans :) Glad you found the standing water, perhaps Warrior thought there would be no water on the INSIDE of their boats.... Cheers from PEI Canada, and congrats on your first piece of Fan Art!