Great video and experiment but one thing, you say the mushrooms "Aged", in the past i have researched this a lot because all the conflicting opinions always bugged me about this and came to a conclusion from credible sources(micologist, scientific papers, experienced growers) that at the very least oysters and most gourmet mushrooms DO NOT experience senescence/aging, they replicate for what seems to be forever, i have even done more than 20 grain to grain transfers and have not noticed any signs of aging, in fact when isolating on agar and comparing the same strain one from a lab and the other kept alive for almost 2 years by grain to grain transfers they perform almost the same with no one seeming more vigorous than the other. Now there are some biological processes that can cause loss of vigor like an enzyme deficiencies that sometimes happens when grow on certain substrates for too long but even that can be controlled and reversed in some cases, so it's not aging. Honestly i just want the truth and i'm open to have my mind changed so if you have any credible info on this topic i am very interested (but not from stamets which from what i gathered started this whole misunderstanding), i think the last thing i read on the topic was from the book "Radical Mycology: A Treatise on Seeing and Working with Fungi by Peter Mccoy" Imo your lower yields are not from loss of vigor but an accumulation of some sort of bacterial/yeast contamination, lack of nutrients from not using grain spawn and a combination of the mites themselves being vectors of this contamination spreading it throughout your substrate. I love your videos, keep it up!
Completely agree. Since this is a low-tech process and there is no sterilization, I also believe that the lower yields have nothing to do with "aging" per se, but rather contamination/competition, which would be easily increased from batch-to-batch as you pass the increasingly established contamination from batch to batch... He alluded to this increasing establishment with the mite problem. It is essentially the same with any contamination.
@CMZ neu yes it's an interesting point to consider, and certainly possible that the slowing of mycelium was a response to accumulation of competing organisms in the substrate...I have personally experienced mycelium ageing / senescence on at least one occasion previously...years ago when we used to produce our own spawn I was pushing the limit of grain to grain transfers and observed that after expanding 6 or 7 times with bag to bag transfers of sterile grain that the colonisation time slowed and the mycelium began to look less vigorous. In the bulk fruiting substrate (sterilised enriched sawdust) this spawn was slower to colonise and produced increased rates of contamination. In those bags that did fruit, average yields were lower. All substrate and grain was sterilised and inoculate din lab conditions, so unlikely caused by accumulation of contaminants. Senescence is caused mainly by genetic mutations that accumulate over time through cell division. This won't always occur within the same timeframe as the mutations can be random and are also influenced by external factors, as well as vary from strain to strain. Each time the cell DNA replicates itself there is the chance for a harmful mutation to occur so the possibility of these accumulating and senescence happening is influenced by the number of cell divisions, which in turn is influenced by the mass of substrate the mycelium has to grow across and the number of times it is expanded to new substrate. There's a reason why commercial spawn labs always maintain and return to a pure mother culture with established and young genetic lines to multiply up from, rather than an endless series of replications of that culture (which risks unknown genetic deviations, including those that lead to deterioration of the strain). In this experiment the mycelium that was used as spawn had already been through at least 4 expansions during spawn production before we took a small section that then ran onto 5 further expansions of bulk substrate (each around 1 metre in length x 20cm diameter). It will have gone through millions of DNA replications throughout this process, so it's certainly possible that 'ageing' was responsible for slower/weaker growth in latter batches. But also totally possible that accumulation of competing organisms was the cause too. I guess it's difficult to say for sure, but interesting to ponder either way ;-)
@@GroCycleTV At first i also thought Senescence was a thing, the accumulation of mutations, limited number of cell divisions, etc, biologically it all makes a lot of sense, but then again there are a bunch of organisms that clone themselves (or are outright inmortal) and have been doing it successfully for hundred of thousands of years like pando,honey mushrooms, seagrass Posidonia oceanica,etc so we know the cellular machinery that can repair these mutations exists. I think(not sure) paul stamets mentioned that you could see loss of vigor caused by senescence in as little as 20 plate transfers, now i haven't done the math but for example a strain is created in one single lab, which is then shared to many others, they themselves need to maintain these cultures which means reviving every few years them ideally from whatever form of cryogenic storage they were in and make more transfers, them they sell these to other labs and mushroom growers which probably don't have liquid nitrogen storage systems, so more transfers, and eventually the original "pure mother culture" is gonna get contaminated, lost or simply die, when this happen we generally don't lose the strain forever, other labs send samples and it is preserved. To me this seems like a lot more than 20 transfers and even 4 bag expansions and i think i have heard mention that there are even some commercial strains that are over 30 years old and that is a lot of cell divisions for them to remain viable.
@@GroCycleTV In my experience I had also contaminations pile up in grain-to-grain transfers. Back then I my agar didn't yet work (I used potato starch powder instead of real potatoes and that was no good idea) so I also used grain to grain transfers putting a single inoculated grain to a newly sterilized glass in my laminar flow box. While the first glass was very fine, the second generation had visible "brown sweating". I still had it work fine in bulk and got a harvest. However the third time doing grain-to-grain, in all glasses, a rot bacteria took over, visibly killed the mycelium, and I had a stinky mess I threw onto the compost. I had to start over again either cloning mushrooms I could buy in a store, or in case of the golden oyster I cannot, I had to order a grain spawn again. I suppose it's the wonders of the 2D-ness of agar to see areas that are struggling and take out the nicest and cleanest cuts for the next generation.
I have good results by changing the growing technique. After the second flush of oyster mushrooms, I cut some 3 foot logs from live trees at 12 to 18 inch diameter. These logs are then cut into 3 pieces 12 inches long. Using a dark colored plastic garbage bag place a layer of used substrate in the bottom of the bag. Place a section of log standing vertically. Then a layer of substrate and the next section of log, another layer of substrate and the final section of log. The layers of substrate should be 1/2 to 3/4 thick. Close the bag loosely to retain humidity but also allow air exchange. After 4 to 6 weeks at 70 to 75 deg F, the mycelium should be starting to colonize the wood. Monitor the humidity, nothing should be allowed to dry out. When the logs are well colonized, remove the log from the bag and place in a shady spot outdoors. Disassmble the stack and remove as much of the old substrate as possible and reassemble the log. Wrap a band of packing tape to keep insects out at the junctions. Best woods to use are soft hardwoods such as red or silver maple, willow, aspen, basswood, or yellow poplar. It may take up to a few months for the mycelium to fully colonize the wood, but once it does you can get multiple flushes per year for 5 years or more depending on the diameter of the log. Best not to have the wood in direct contact with the soil as it will attract slugs and insects.
I grow my oyster mushrooms in trays and right now I am on the 4th generation using the same spawn. I have been getting at least 3 flushes each generation. After the 3rd or 4th flush I add a product to the surface called Gardener & Bloom Soil Conditioner. It lists the ingredients as: recycled forest products, arbor fines, composted chicken manure, gypsum, oyster shell & dolomite limes (as pH adjusters), vermicompost, bat guano, kelp meal, Mycorrhizae. I do not reclean my trays when adding the new substrate. I don not grow commercially, just for myself and my husband.
Hi, Thanks for asking. After the 4th generation of casing layers, each generation had 3 flushes, I started to get a significant amount of fungus gnats invading the trays, so I had to scrap everything and start over. Kandice
Out of curiosity have you considered running an experiment of an attempt to use the substrate to spawn onto some grain spawn then back to the bags? Have you noticed much difference?
You are doing the same experiment I am at the moment. I have been growing plants for years and just started growing mushrooms. I am using a 'forest floor' method and creating a sandwich of different barks, logs, sticks and even a small amount of rocks to grow them in. Early days but the theory is the same with plants. I.e. 'Feed the soil, not the crop'. I have a feeling that if you use different food sources for each generation, it will take care of pests and atrophy and you will get a better result. Like human beings, fungi would need a varied diet. Good on you guys for looking for more earthy, 'low tech' ways to grow your crops.
Thankyou for this good info. We are new to mushroom growing but it’s working. Very exciting. We’re in South Africa and unusual mushrooms are very popular here in the Western Cape
Could it be that your lower yields are because substrate doesn't have the same amount of nutrition as the grains? what if you introduce new grains along with the new substrate to feed the old mushroom? I doubt it has anything to do with how many generations the mycelium colony is.
Cool video, thanks for sharing! The first explanation which comes to mind is that the absence of grain lowers the amount of nutrients in the substrate. Would be interesting to replicate the experiment, but using the same grain/bulk ratio as with normal grows. A question unrelated to the video, have you ever experimented with mycorrhizal fungi? Seems like nobody has figured out how to cultivate them yet, the implications are huge though.
I wonder if you can cut it. Like use some substrate, and some grain spawn. Maybe you can use the substrate to innoculate some grain, and then use that as grain spawn, since grain has a lot of nutrients and might revitalize it. Another thing is want to see tested is if adding nutrients to the soil helps, is imagine it allow the mycelium to take a strong home if those free nutrients are applied right next to the mycelium area.
Excellent info, I wondered whether or not it was feasible. As with plants when they are weakened pest appear so it stands to reason the same would be true for aged mycelium fruits. Good experiment ... thanks for doing this and sharing the info. So grateful, thank you !!
Do you think the majority of the loss in yield comes from the aged mycelium or is it the missing nitrogen? Would this significantly change if you use supplements, e.g. mix in coffee grounds?
@@JOHNfuknRAMBO I know, but he does not test it. If this was a scientific work, it would be rejected. Anecdotally, it is still interesting, but not rigorous.
Thanks for the educational video. Just did my experiment last weekend.
4 года назад+4
Very interesting ! By the way are you going to share with us what you have discovered with mushroom growing in buckets ? Especially the practical aspect like cleaning the buckets. But also things like buckets sizing and impact on yield.
We're currently creating a set of more in depth lessons in our course on this topic. We may cover it more briefly in a future RUclips video at some point as well, but it was the top topic that our course members have been asking for more lessons on so we can go into more detail there.
Cheers for this, great content as always and I've been eagerly awaiting the results of this experiment! :) - I hope the mite issue wasn't too much of a problem for you guys to get under control! - Good luck with making all those growing kits for Christmas :)
I am very keen to get an outside bed growing as one of your videos showed. I am wondering if it is the 'forcing' of many crops/year that this (video above) would affect? Indeed if the mushroom bed produces continuously why can't a commercial column? Is it the cost effectiveness of it or the mites/pests/diseases,and if it is the mites/pests/diseases, do you get the mites/pests/diseases on the outdoor mushroom bed? If the mites/pests/diseases do affect the mushroom bed, can the mushrooms still be eaten and what can be done to remedy the mites pests and diseases of the outdoor bed,or is it a complete restart (it doesn't seem to be a worry when collecting from the wild)?
Thanks for sharing the result. I think by using a substrate as spawn, adding a nitrogen-rich growing material with straw can improve the yield. Just a theory...
@@GroCycleTV Agree. Probably adding some coarse hardwood sawdust to the initial substrate which is going to be used as spawn later would improve the result. In other words, using a richer initial sterile substrate. Something that Oyster mushroom mycelium will have a longer time to work on it and yet can drain nutrition from it. This seems to be an interesting subject and if solved, it can reduce costs a lot since grain spawn is the biggest cost.
Maybe this will interest you - I decided to "feed" my Oyster mushroom mycellium between 2 and 3 fruiting. For this purpose, I cooked the grain and injected the resulting "soup" around the bag. Now I'm waiting for the next fruiting and the result. I am curious if anyone has tried this method before?
@@Reynevan800 Thanks for sharing. Sine mycelium activity creates byproducts in growth medium (waste), it reduces growth medium's healthiness, and adding nutrition to the growth medium which is already used for 2-3 times of fruiting may not help much. Also adding liquid changes the solid-moisture balance which may cause rotting mycelium due to lack of enough air. I have not grown mushroom yet and what I say here is just based on my imagination and theoretical view, which may not be correct. Hope you get a good result.
Would it be possible to “re-invigorate” it by transferring some mycelium to sterilized grain, so the mushroom won’t end up nutrient deficient due to being grown in the same medium over and over again? What about letting one batch of mushrooms “grow up” after a few transfers, and produce spores, so you can add a piece of the gills to one batch of sterilized grain, so you produce “baby” mushrooms? :) I’m just looking into growing mushrooms, so have no experience. It’s just me thinking aloud, to see if you can reduce costs as a hobby grower, lol. :p
great vid. One question. considering that the A & B result are essentially the same it seems, as you mention, the grain spawn seem to be acting as a "seed" AND supplement, What percentage innoculation rate was used with the spawn for that chart.? (ok 2 questions) Would that same result be achieved if you added sterile grain (at same percentage) to the straw and then added the A or B substrate to innoculate? How about a test.
Very interesting video, thankyou for sharing....looks like it’s not viable especially if mites are a risk, best to keep everything clean and fresh. Really appreciate your trials and experiments, thankyou x
Dude -- thanks a lot for this very useful experiment! It is very hard to find info on this anywhere. I am in the middle of a similar experiment. I used hay to do chestnuts. They colonized the bucket but no fruit. So, I am reusing colonized hay to mix in the new substrate made of HWFP. Will see how it goes.
Thank you very much for the video! answered more than satisfactorily to the questions I had in mind! For a small scale (personal use) yield, what would you suggest to keep on going without having to buy more spores? Is the way forward replicating previous batches through spores? thank you!
This might be a silly question but can you mix grain spawn into the "spent" hay and fresh hey mix? Of tge same variety of course or would they still compete?
Is it possible that the mites are a result of using hay/straw substrate for your spawn? If using grain, coconut coir, wood pellets or brown rice to propagate the mycelium, do you see the same issue with mites?
So is it confirmed that the inky difference the grain spawn provide is the nutritional value? If that’s the case, is there a supplement that can he added to the bulk substrate to “strengthen” it? I supplemented my cococoir with gypsum (blended up sheetrock to save money haha); would this provide the missing nutrients from the grain spawn? What if I was to mix in some sterilized grain to a batch of sterilized coir before grandfathering in a chunk of substrate from an old batch to colonize it, would that provide the nutrients in the same way?
How about doing small scale diy grain spores production? So you only have to sterilize a small proportion as much substrate and keep just the spore production part strictly sterile, but can selectively breed your own variants?
The differences on yield may be because of the fact that the grain spawn has more nutrition than the used substrate which had less nutrition than grain in the first place rather than due to aging. The concept of aging through generations is itself suspect biologically. Mutations take more time than that.
Hi. Your videos are very informative. I would like to know why when inoculating spawns into wood logs, the book kept saying not to squash the mycelium or pack too tight into holes. Would mycelium die?
just tell me how ? how the spores die? how long does it take them to die? please establish it with prove. i am having oyster mushroom spore print on aluminum foil and kept on roof top direct sunlight around 49 to 51 degree Celsius. from 23rd January 2017 and just last week i use that spore print for liquid culture using kyro syrup and distilled water there is a heavy growth of Mycelium.please explain the "term spore die"
I wonder if you reused the substrate but pasteurized it and used the traditional grain spawn. Or just mixed 50% used substrate with new substrate all pasteurized.
Chicken of the Woods need the strength and stability of a wood log to grow. Logs can be inoculated a partially buried in soil to maintain moisture levels. Oak, ash, or cherry are good choices.
Hello, thank you for your work, I'm learning too much things. Here we are working to start our Mushrooms store in Brazil, and I saw that you crop the Oyster Mushroom and put in the paper box. My question is if we can use paper box like in your video to sell to the clients, Will Mushrooms eat the paper box? Thanks for atention In Brazil we need to develop suatainable ways to sell cause The trash is a serius problem.
how about pasteurization of inoculated substrate. Mix it with fresh substrate. The idea is that we shall have a nutrient-rich substrate that shall ultimately end up delivering high production.
That was my first thought! I'm going to try adding aprox. the same amount of sterilized grain as I'd use with grain spawn and compare those yields. I'm imagining in the wild that the mycelium would only bother fruiting in those areas where it has access to those extra nutrients, otherwise it would just keep growing and spreading till it found some. If it is stronger, that might also reduce risk of the mites. The substrate that wasn't getting colonised by the slower mycelium would have been a perfect breeding ground for them.
yes I agree if you have ongoing mushroom production, it is not worth as a core technique to implement regularly. It's fine for small or one off hobby growing though
Curious about the yield comparison. So if you split the bag 5 times (20% ea) and each produced less than half (say 40%) of the spawn bag. Doesn't that mean you actually get more yield overall? It's actually 40% x 5 compared to the one spawned bag, no?
Exactly! It would also be interesting to see/ do a cost/kg experiment. There should be a way to not depend on externally produced grain spawn (at least not for every flush)
We introduced more mycelium load with the used substrate (inoculated at 20% rate) vs grain spawn (inoculated at 7%). So not a direct comparison...if we added the used substrate at 7% I think we would have seen slower growth, more contamination and lower yields, but we wanted to give it a chance of success with a higher spawn rate vs lower rate of grain spawn
Does rice grow in your area? Any grain stem should have roughly the same nutrient content as wheat, which is most common here. If there's no grain, you may be able to try some various shell/husks of legumes or I believe sunflower, which is sometimes used to supplement hardwood substrates. I've also had success with using store-bought aspen shavings (as animal bedding) with no supplementation, just with lower yields; if you're just growing for personal use, that wouldn't break the bank the bank in small quantities.
Help, need your advice, bought some oyster mushroom kits, & lions main grow kits, i saw in 1 of your video what it should look like, im a little worried about the yellowing & browning in it, heres a pic of what it looks like, HELP 😃
hello. has anyone tried pine wood pellets with grains as substrare for oyster mushrooms? do you think it works ? kinda hard in my area in spain to get hardwood . thank you
fellas, I'm interested in growing medicinal mushrooms, probably reiki, lion's mane, and turkey tails to start out with. How can I find out which species can be grown without the use of an autoclave/pressure cooker, just with pressurized or lye washed sawdust, straw or whatnot?
Nice video. What is the point in doing grain inoculation and substrate inoculation in separate steps? Could a nutrified substrate be inoculated from agar or LC and moved to fruiting? I guess it will work, does it? Thanks for sharing knowledge ❤️
Grain works much better to transfer established mycelium, creating multiple points of inoculation in the bulk substrate. Liquid culture or agar are normally used to create grain spawn further back in the expansion process. If you try inoculating bulk substrate with liquid culture it is usually much slower to colonise in sawdust or straw than it is on grain.
You really needed to clone a mushroom from the last batch... grow it on agar. make fresh uncontaminated grain spawn and then see how the mycelium is, if it still acts OLD, or did it get fresh. Now it is only speculation that the mycelium has aged. probably it is contamination
@@georgelionon9050 @GroCycle Yes I was wondering the same thing. Red Wiggler worms are great at fixing nitrogen and other nutrients in their castings. I grew a few varieties of mushrooms a couple years ago that I've never found locally and always wanted to taste. I used some of the worm castings in both the rye berry mix I used to colonize, as well as more in the fruiting substrate I used. This was just hobby farming plus me liking to try new things so I'm not really sure if that was good practice or gave any benefit to the mushrooms, but I always believe the closer you can stick to nature the better. They grew just fine, and I had no issues with contamination like I had worried about. This was just an at-home grow with a home-made kit and spores purchased from an online mycology site. And no professional sterilizing equipment, just some mason jars and a pressure cooker. Coco-coir plus worm castings plus coffee grounds for the fruiting substrate in just one of those disposable aluminum pans they sell to cook turkeys in. After fruiting I fed the leftovers back to the worms, full circle.
@@Thingsyourollup What I was wondering, if the worm bin is doing well with taking care of used mycelium? The red wigglers usually nurture by sucking on rot bacteria. But in case of mycelium, it doesn't rot, since the mushroom fights the bacteria. Where hot composting can get to 50° C and the mushroom would die/decompose faster? I have two worm bins in my cellar and just recently put in a large quantity of failed mycelium that had too much green mold in it. I'm waiting on how well it decomposes... Or if the fungus gnats just explode :(
The guy from southwest mushrooms uses substrate as spawn once, he gets just a little drop in yields but not as drastically as yours(he uses master's mix). I think this has to do with lacking of proper nutrients.
It wasn't clear how you harvested the spent spawn from each batch to produce the next. Something occurred to me in looking at the process. Here is an experiment to see if the aging and senescence of repeated reuse of substrate might be mitigated by slective pulling if "starter" spawn for the next cycle. You start out with a single bag of spawn (round #1). Then you take that any of that spawn and layer it in the next bag with new substrate. So, in round #2, we will have a bag of, say, 7" of old spawn, with 7" of new straw substrate on top, then 7" of old spawn topped with 7" of new straw and so on. In round #3, if we only take mycelia from the newer substrate from round #2, and layer it with fresh substrate, we are in a sense, propagating "young" mycelia. We would only be dealing with 2nd generation spawn throughout. In order to insure (as much as possible) that we never have spawn older than 2 generations, we could dye or not dye the new substrate each round. So, in this instance, in round #2, the new straw would be dyed blue (or whatever). Then, in cycle #3, only the blue-dyed straw would be collected for innoculation and it would be layered with undyed new substrate. For #4, the undyed spawn from generation layered once again with dyed spawn and so on. Over time, senescence would eventually creep in, but with the constant renewal, it wouldn't be as quick as what you experienced, assuming you didn't take the precautions I have outlined in each generation. Of course, the mites issue wouldn't be affected, but with strict heat treatment of the substrate, it might never arise. What do you think?
Maybe say things once instead of repeating your self saying the same thing multiple times. On the whole, I am grateful you performed and recorded this experiment.
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Great video and experiment but one thing, you say the mushrooms "Aged", in the past i have researched this a lot because all the conflicting opinions always bugged me about this and came to a conclusion from credible sources(micologist, scientific papers, experienced growers) that at the very least oysters and most gourmet mushrooms DO NOT experience senescence/aging, they replicate for what seems to be forever, i have even done more than 20 grain to grain transfers and have not noticed any signs of aging, in fact when isolating on agar and comparing the same strain one from a lab and the other kept alive for almost 2 years by grain to grain transfers they perform almost the same with no one seeming more vigorous than the other.
Now there are some biological processes that can cause loss of vigor like an enzyme deficiencies that sometimes happens when grow on certain substrates for too long but even that can be controlled and reversed in some cases, so it's not aging.
Honestly i just want the truth and i'm open to have my mind changed so if you have any credible info on this topic i am very interested (but not from stamets which from what i gathered started this whole misunderstanding), i think the last thing i read on the topic was from the book "Radical Mycology: A Treatise on Seeing and Working with Fungi by Peter Mccoy"
Imo your lower yields are not from loss of vigor but an accumulation of some sort of bacterial/yeast contamination, lack of nutrients from not using grain spawn and a combination of the mites themselves being vectors of this contamination spreading it throughout your substrate.
I love your videos, keep it up!
Completely agree. Since this is a low-tech process and there is no sterilization, I also believe that the lower yields have nothing to do with "aging" per se, but rather contamination/competition, which would be easily increased from batch-to-batch as you pass the increasingly established contamination from batch to batch...
He alluded to this increasing establishment with the mite problem. It is essentially the same with any contamination.
CMZ neu thank you for this gem of info!
@CMZ neu yes it's an interesting point to consider, and certainly possible that the slowing of mycelium was a response to accumulation of competing organisms in the substrate...I have personally experienced mycelium ageing / senescence on at least one occasion previously...years ago when we used to produce our own spawn I was pushing the limit of grain to grain transfers and observed that after expanding 6 or 7 times with bag to bag transfers of sterile grain that the colonisation time slowed and the mycelium began to look less vigorous. In the bulk fruiting substrate (sterilised enriched sawdust) this spawn was slower to colonise and produced increased rates of contamination. In those bags that did fruit, average yields were lower. All substrate and grain was sterilised and inoculate din lab conditions, so unlikely caused by accumulation of contaminants.
Senescence is caused mainly by genetic mutations that accumulate over time through cell division. This won't always occur within the same timeframe as the mutations can be random and are also influenced by external factors, as well as vary from strain to strain. Each time the cell DNA replicates itself there is the chance for a harmful mutation to occur so the possibility of these accumulating and senescence happening is influenced by the number of cell divisions, which in turn is influenced by the mass of substrate the mycelium has to grow across and the number of times it is expanded to new substrate. There's a reason why commercial spawn labs always maintain and return to a pure mother culture with established and young genetic lines to multiply up from, rather than an endless series of replications of that culture (which risks unknown genetic deviations, including those that lead to deterioration of the strain).
In this experiment the mycelium that was used as spawn had already been through at least 4 expansions during spawn production before we took a small section that then ran onto 5 further expansions of bulk substrate (each around 1 metre in length x 20cm diameter). It will have gone through millions of DNA replications throughout this process, so it's certainly possible that 'ageing' was responsible for slower/weaker growth in latter batches. But also totally possible that accumulation of competing organisms was the cause too. I guess it's difficult to say for sure, but interesting to ponder either way ;-)
@@GroCycleTV At first i also thought Senescence was a thing, the accumulation of mutations, limited number of cell divisions, etc, biologically it all makes a lot of sense, but then again there are a bunch of organisms that clone themselves (or are outright inmortal) and have been doing it successfully for hundred of thousands of years like pando,honey mushrooms, seagrass Posidonia oceanica,etc so we know the cellular machinery that can repair these mutations exists.
I think(not sure) paul stamets mentioned that you could see loss of vigor caused by senescence in as little as 20 plate transfers, now i haven't done the math but for example a strain is created in one single lab, which is then shared to many others, they themselves need to maintain these cultures which means reviving every few years them ideally from whatever form of cryogenic storage they were in and make more transfers, them they sell these to other labs and mushroom growers which probably don't have liquid nitrogen storage systems, so more transfers, and eventually the original "pure mother culture" is gonna get contaminated, lost or simply die, when this happen we generally don't lose the strain forever, other labs send samples and it is preserved.
To me this seems like a lot more than 20 transfers and even 4 bag expansions and i think i have heard mention that there are even some commercial strains that are over 30 years old and that is a lot of cell divisions for them to remain viable.
@@GroCycleTV In my experience I had also contaminations pile up in grain-to-grain transfers. Back then I my agar didn't yet work (I used potato starch powder instead of real potatoes and that was no good idea) so I also used grain to grain transfers putting a single inoculated grain to a newly sterilized glass in my laminar flow box. While the first glass was very fine, the second generation had visible "brown sweating". I still had it work fine in bulk and got a harvest. However the third time doing grain-to-grain, in all glasses, a rot bacteria took over, visibly killed the mycelium, and I had a stinky mess I threw onto the compost.
I had to start over again either cloning mushrooms I could buy in a store, or in case of the golden oyster I cannot, I had to order a grain spawn again.
I suppose it's the wonders of the 2D-ness of agar to see areas that are struggling and take out the nicest and cleanest cuts for the next generation.
I have good results by changing the growing technique. After the second flush of oyster mushrooms, I cut some 3 foot logs from live trees at 12 to 18 inch diameter. These logs are then cut into 3 pieces 12 inches long. Using a dark colored plastic garbage bag place a layer of used substrate in the bottom of the bag. Place a section of log standing vertically. Then a layer of substrate and the next section of log, another layer of substrate and the final section of log. The layers of substrate should be 1/2 to 3/4 thick. Close the bag loosely to retain humidity but also allow air exchange. After 4 to 6 weeks at 70 to 75 deg F, the mycelium should be starting to colonize the wood. Monitor the humidity, nothing should be allowed to dry out. When the logs are well colonized, remove the log from the bag and place in a shady spot outdoors. Disassmble the stack and remove as much of the old substrate as possible and reassemble the log. Wrap a band of packing tape to keep insects out at the junctions. Best woods to use are soft hardwoods such as red or silver maple, willow, aspen, basswood, or yellow poplar. It may take up to a few months for the mycelium to fully colonize the wood, but once it does you can get multiple flushes per year for 5 years or more depending on the diameter of the log. Best not to have the wood in direct contact with the soil as it will attract slugs and insects.
I grow my oyster mushrooms in trays and right now I am on the 4th generation using the same spawn. I have been getting at least 3 flushes each generation. After the 3rd or 4th flush I add a product to the surface called Gardener & Bloom Soil Conditioner. It lists the ingredients as: recycled forest products, arbor fines, composted chicken manure, gypsum, oyster shell & dolomite limes (as pH adjusters), vermicompost, bat guano, kelp meal, Mycorrhizae. I do not reclean my trays when adding the new substrate. I don not grow commercially, just for myself and my husband.
Did you continue on with these generations and the Gardener & Bloom Soil Conditioner? If so, how did it work out?
Hi, Thanks for asking. After the 4th generation of casing layers, each generation had 3 flushes, I started to get a significant amount of fungus gnats invading the trays, so I had to scrap everything and start over.
Kandice
@@ladykilla85 PS, I think it is important to start the next generation before the substrate is not starving and starting to die off.
@@Naturally-Kandice Thanks!
Wait, do they colonize the new casing layer? Still learning..
I've been eagerly waiting for this video. very cool results! thanks for sharing this experiment!
Out of curiosity have you considered running an experiment of an attempt to use the substrate to spawn onto some grain spawn then back to the bags? Have you noticed much difference?
You are doing the same experiment I am at the moment. I have been growing plants for years and just started growing mushrooms. I am using a 'forest floor' method and creating a sandwich of different barks, logs, sticks and even a small amount of rocks to grow them in. Early days but the theory is the same with plants. I.e. 'Feed the soil, not the crop'. I have a feeling that if you use different food sources for each generation, it will take care of pests and atrophy and you will get a better result. Like human beings, fungi would need a varied diet. Good on you guys for looking for more earthy, 'low tech' ways to grow your crops.
Sound interesting! Let us all know it it goes 👍
Thankyou for this good info. We are new to mushroom growing but it’s working. Very exciting. We’re in South Africa and unusual mushrooms are very popular here in the Western Cape
Excellent content. This is the kind of thing that will benefit the community as a whole, where we can build off each other's work.
i tried your experiment using substrate as spawn and it works.. so amaaaazziiing..!!! thanks..
Very professional and informative video, thank you.
Could it be that your lower yields are because substrate doesn't have the same amount of nutrition as the grains? what if you introduce new grains along with the new substrate to feed the old mushroom? I doubt it has anything to do with how many generations the mycelium colony is.
I appreciate the empirical approach!
Cool video, thanks for sharing! The first explanation which comes to mind is that the absence of grain lowers the amount of nutrients in the substrate. Would be interesting to replicate the experiment, but using the same grain/bulk ratio as with normal grows.
A question unrelated to the video, have you ever experimented with mycorrhizal fungi? Seems like nobody has figured out how to cultivate them yet, the implications are huge though.
Great question, we are all on the forefront of much research to be done. Time for some scientific method.
They require plant roots to cultivate. Without the roots they don't stay in the soil. Well, maybe the spores do.
I wonder if you can cut it. Like use some substrate, and some grain spawn. Maybe you can use the substrate to innoculate some grain, and then use that as grain spawn, since grain has a lot of nutrients and might revitalize it. Another thing is want to see tested is if adding nutrients to the soil helps, is imagine it allow the mycelium to take a strong home if those free nutrients are applied right next to the mycelium area.
Excellent info, I wondered whether or not it was feasible. As with plants when they are weakened pest appear so it stands to reason the same would be true for aged mycelium fruits. Good experiment ... thanks for doing this and sharing the info. So grateful, thank you !!
What would happen if you did this but then also supplemented the substrate with nitrogen? 🤔
Do you think the majority of the loss in yield comes from the aged mycelium or is it the missing nitrogen? Would this significantly change if you use supplements, e.g. mix in coffee grounds?
In the first video of this he mentioned "senescence" - basically the mycelium ages and degrades over time... I don't think nutrients would help sadly
@@JOHNfuknRAMBO I know, but he does not test it. If this was a scientific work, it would be rejected. Anecdotally, it is still interesting, but not rigorous.
Thanks for the educational video. Just did my experiment last weekend.
Very interesting ! By the way are you going to share with us what you have discovered with mushroom growing in buckets ? Especially the practical aspect like cleaning the buckets. But also things like buckets sizing and impact on yield.
Also interested in how the bucket process is going
We're currently creating a set of more in depth lessons in our course on this topic. We may cover it more briefly in a future RUclips video at some point as well, but it was the top topic that our course members have been asking for more lessons on so we can go into more detail there.
well done. I was pleased to see the conclusion pop up.
Cheers for this, great content as always and I've been eagerly awaiting the results of this experiment! :) - I hope the mite issue wasn't too much of a problem for you guys to get under control! - Good luck with making all those growing kits for Christmas :)
I actually might get one for my sister in law... I tried ordering some during lockdown but they were all sold out! XD - You popular peeps! ;) :)
You guys are a riot. You have covered everything and i really appreciate it.
I am very keen to get an outside bed growing as one of your videos showed.
I am wondering if it is the 'forcing' of many crops/year that this (video above) would affect? Indeed if the mushroom bed produces continuously why can't a commercial column? Is it the cost effectiveness of it or the mites/pests/diseases,and if it is the mites/pests/diseases, do you get the mites/pests/diseases on the outdoor mushroom bed? If the mites/pests/diseases do affect the mushroom bed, can the mushrooms still be eaten and what can be done to remedy the mites pests and diseases of the outdoor bed,or is it a complete restart (it doesn't seem to be a worry when collecting from the wild)?
Thank you so much for the very informative video and thank you for taking the time on doing this very important test! God bless you!
What about for grain spawn? can you continue inoculating jars with jars of spawn then using those jars to inoculate more?
Thanks for sharing the result.
I think by using a substrate as spawn, adding a nitrogen-rich growing material with straw can improve the yield. Just a theory...
Yes this could help increase the yield, but also increases chance of contamination if you add too much nitrogen to a non-sterile substrate.
@@GroCycleTV Agree. Probably adding some coarse hardwood sawdust to the initial substrate which is going to be used as spawn later would improve the result. In other words, using a richer initial sterile substrate. Something that Oyster mushroom mycelium will have a longer time to work on it and yet can drain nutrition from it.
This seems to be an interesting subject and if solved, it can reduce costs a lot since grain spawn is the biggest cost.
Maybe this will interest you - I decided to "feed" my Oyster mushroom mycellium between 2 and 3 fruiting. For this purpose, I cooked the grain and injected the resulting "soup" around the bag. Now I'm waiting for the next fruiting and the result. I am curious if anyone has tried this method before?
@@Reynevan800 Maybe you should to add bran instead of grain.
@@Reynevan800 Thanks for sharing. Sine mycelium activity creates byproducts in growth medium (waste), it reduces growth medium's healthiness, and adding nutrition to the growth medium which is already used for 2-3 times of fruiting may not help much. Also adding liquid changes the solid-moisture balance which may cause rotting mycelium due to lack of enough air. I have not grown mushroom yet and what I say here is just based on my imagination and theoretical view, which may not be correct. Hope you get a good result.
Would it be possible to “re-invigorate” it by transferring some mycelium to sterilized grain, so the mushroom won’t end up nutrient deficient due to being grown in the same medium over and over again?
What about letting one batch of mushrooms “grow up” after a few transfers, and produce spores, so you can add a piece of the gills to one batch of sterilized grain, so you produce “baby” mushrooms? :)
I’m just looking into growing mushrooms, so have no experience. It’s just me thinking aloud, to see if you can reduce costs as a hobby grower, lol. :p
great vid. One question. considering that the A & B result are essentially the same it seems, as you mention, the grain spawn seem to be acting as a "seed" AND supplement, What percentage innoculation rate was used with the spawn for that chart.? (ok 2 questions) Would that same result be achieved if you added sterile grain (at same percentage) to the straw and then added the A or B substrate to innoculate? How about a test.
I'm new to growing mushrooms, I notice you use long bags. What should I look for or better yet who do you buy from? Thank you for what you do.
Hi. Can i use my microgreen waste (which is composting) as substrate for mushrooms? after posterization?
Nice share. Thank you. Your presentations provide a healthy dose of balance and reason.
Very interesting video, thankyou for sharing....looks like it’s not viable especially if mites are a risk, best to keep everything clean and fresh.
Really appreciate your trials and experiments, thankyou x
This channel is simply fantastic
thanks for your resource. Inspiring ...
thank you for the useful info! Comparing to this, is the Stem Butt Method for growing spawn and then propagating again to substrate safer?
it's a similar thing really, but I would say you get stronger growth from using substrate as spawn vs stem butts on cardboard
Dude -- thanks a lot for this very useful experiment! It is very hard to find info on this anywhere. I am in the middle of a similar experiment. I used hay to do chestnuts. They colonized the bucket but no fruit. So, I am reusing colonized hay to mix in the new substrate made of HWFP. Will see how it goes.
Im trying cold water pasteurization , can you reuse the water? If soo, how many times?
Thank you very much for the video! answered more than satisfactorily to the questions I had in mind! For a small scale (personal use) yield, what would you suggest to keep on going without having to buy more spores? Is the way forward replicating previous batches through spores? thank you!
This might be a silly question but can you mix grain spawn into the "spent" hay and fresh hey mix? Of tge same variety of course or would they still compete?
Thanks for doing the experiment for us!
Hi Adam and Eric, thanks for this and all your other inspiring videos! Can I please ask how do you cut your straw into small pieces?
Is it possible that the mites are a result of using hay/straw substrate for your spawn? If using grain, coconut coir, wood pellets or brown rice to propagate the mycelium, do you see the same issue with mites?
Thank you. You saved me doing the same experiment ☺️
Do you think that adding bokashi to the older substrate might produce better results?
Great video. Great test. Thank you.
So is it confirmed that the inky difference the grain spawn provide is the nutritional value? If that’s the case, is there a supplement that can he added to the bulk substrate to “strengthen” it? I supplemented my cococoir with gypsum (blended up sheetrock to save money haha); would this provide the missing nutrients from the grain spawn? What if I was to mix in some sterilized grain to a batch of sterilized coir before grandfathering in a chunk of substrate from an old batch to colonize it, would that provide the nutrients in the same way?
How about doing small scale diy grain spores production? So you only have to sterilize a small proportion as much substrate and keep just the spore production part strictly sterile, but can selectively breed your own variants?
The differences on yield may be because of the fact that the grain spawn has more nutrition than the used substrate which had less nutrition than grain in the first place rather than due to aging. The concept of aging through generations is itself suspect biologically. Mutations take more time than that.
How about using a first wash substrate for grain spawn ??
So what do you do about your mite problem? Seems like that could spread to a whole warehouse quickly.
Have you played around with using used hardwood substrate in the same way?
Hi. Your videos are very informative. I would like to know why when inoculating spawns into wood logs, the book kept saying not to squash the mycelium or pack too tight into holes. Would mycelium die?
Would freezing the sub strait kill the mites?
Thank you for your experiments, it really helps
Thanks for the helpful videos!
just tell me how ? how the spores die? how long does it take them to die? please establish it with prove. i am having oyster mushroom spore print on aluminum foil and kept on roof top direct sunlight around 49 to 51 degree Celsius. from 23rd January 2017 and just last week i use that spore print for liquid culture using kyro syrup and distilled water there is a heavy growth of Mycelium.please explain the "term spore die"
I wonder if you reused the substrate but pasteurized it and used the traditional grain spawn. Or just mixed 50% used substrate with new substrate all pasteurized.
Good evening,
I follow the videos for the cultivation of mushrooms, really interesting, I wanted to ask you the sterilized straw? as?
Thanks
What?
Random question! Is growing chicken of the woods mushrooms same process as growing gray dove oyster mushroom using rye grain and hay straw?
Chicken of the Woods need the strength and stability of a wood log to grow. Logs can be inoculated a partially buried in soil to maintain moisture levels. Oak, ash, or cherry are good choices.
Hello, thank you for your work,
I'm learning too much things.
Here we are working to start our Mushrooms store in Brazil, and I saw that you crop the Oyster Mushroom and put in the paper box.
My question is if we can use paper box like in your video to sell to the clients, Will Mushrooms eat the paper box?
Thanks for atention
In Brazil we need to develop suatainable ways to sell cause The trash is a serius problem.
how about pasteurization of inoculated substrate. Mix it with fresh substrate. The idea is that we shall have a nutrient-rich substrate that shall ultimately end up delivering high production.
I wonder if mixing in a tiny amount of diatomaceous earth with the substrate would assist in keeping away mites and other pests.
I like your work guys,keep up a good work
Great video. One spore at a time.
What if I reuse the substrate as spawn, but I throw in some sterilized grains or other supplements? That might offset the lower yields.
That was my first thought! I'm going to try adding aprox. the same amount of sterilized grain as I'd use with grain spawn and compare those yields. I'm imagining in the wild that the mycelium would only bother fruiting in those areas where it has access to those extra nutrients, otherwise it would just keep growing and spreading till it found some. If it is stronger, that might also reduce risk of the mites. The substrate that wasn't getting colonised by the slower mycelium would have been a perfect breeding ground for them.
@@aaronchang9317 That was my idea as well. Did you get any results yet?
No point in adding sterilized grain unless your main part of a substrate is sterile.
Also thank you so much for doing all this. Super interesting/helpful stuff
Thank you very much for this video. I was planning on doing this ( pre fruiting) but this has changed my mind. The cost savings is not worth it.
yes I agree if you have ongoing mushroom production, it is not worth as a core technique to implement regularly. It's fine for small or one off hobby growing though
@@GroCycleTV if I may, what are your thoughts on using five gallon buckets vs bags? I will be getting started next march.
Curious about the yield comparison. So if you split the bag 5 times (20% ea) and each produced less than half (say 40%) of the spawn bag. Doesn't that mean you actually get more yield overall? It's actually 40% x 5 compared to the one spawned bag, no?
Exactly! It would also be interesting to see/ do a cost/kg experiment.
There should be a way to not depend on externally produced grain spawn (at least not for every flush)
Thanks a lot for ur experiment
Thanks for doing it 🙏🙏,,
Maybe I missed it in the video, but did you introduce the same mycelium load with the used substrate vs grain spawn?
We introduced more mycelium load with the used substrate (inoculated at 20% rate) vs grain spawn (inoculated at 7%). So not a direct comparison...if we added the used substrate at 7% I think we would have seen slower growth, more contamination and lower yields, but we wanted to give it a chance of success with a higher spawn rate vs lower rate of grain spawn
Lol bro I saw that anarchy sign you drew on specimen A 😂😂🤘🏽
Very useful, thank you
Hi i lived in Singapore, not able to find straws, wat other materials can be use to substitute for straw?
Does rice grow in your area? Any grain stem should have roughly the same nutrient content as wheat, which is most common here. If there's no grain, you may be able to try some various shell/husks of legumes or I believe sunflower, which is sometimes used to supplement hardwood substrates. I've also had success with using store-bought aspen shavings (as animal bedding) with no supplementation, just with lower yields; if you're just growing for personal use, that wouldn't break the bank the bank in small quantities.
Help, need your advice, bought some oyster mushroom kits, & lions main grow kits, i saw in 1 of your video what it should look like, im a little worried about the yellowing & browning in it, heres a pic of what it looks like, HELP 😃
hello. has anyone tried pine wood pellets with grains as substrare for oyster mushrooms? do you think it works ? kinda hard in my area in spain to get hardwood . thank you
fellas, I'm interested in growing medicinal mushrooms, probably reiki, lion's mane, and turkey tails to start out with. How can I find out which species can be grown without the use of an autoclave/pressure cooker, just with pressurized or lye washed sawdust, straw or whatnot?
If uou have sawdust spawn, simply inoculate some fresh cut logs and grow them on wood. The logs will produce mushrooms for many years.
thank you for sharing
Nice video.
What is the point in doing grain inoculation and substrate inoculation in separate steps?
Could a nutrified substrate be inoculated from agar or LC and moved to fruiting? I guess it will work, does it?
Thanks for sharing knowledge ❤️
Grain works much better to transfer established mycelium, creating multiple points of inoculation in the bulk substrate. Liquid culture or agar are normally used to create grain spawn further back in the expansion process. If you try inoculating bulk substrate with liquid culture it is usually much slower to colonise in sawdust or straw than it is on grain.
You really needed to clone a mushroom from the last batch...
grow it on agar. make fresh uncontaminated grain spawn and then see how the mycelium is, if it still acts OLD, or did it get fresh.
Now it is only speculation that the mycelium has aged. probably it is contamination
How do you dispose of the colonized substrate after you're finished fruiting it?
we normally compost it and then it gets used on a neighbouring market garden
@@GroCycleTV Do you do vermicompost or hot composting?
@@georgelionon9050 @GroCycle Yes I was wondering the same thing. Red Wiggler worms are great at fixing nitrogen and other nutrients in their castings. I grew a few varieties of mushrooms a couple years ago that I've never found locally and always wanted to taste. I used some of the worm castings in both the rye berry mix I used to colonize, as well as more in the fruiting substrate I used. This was just hobby farming plus me liking to try new things so I'm not really sure if that was good practice or gave any benefit to the mushrooms, but I always believe the closer you can stick to nature the better. They grew just fine, and I had no issues with contamination like I had worried about. This was just an at-home grow with a home-made kit and spores purchased from an online mycology site. And no professional sterilizing equipment, just some mason jars and a pressure cooker. Coco-coir plus worm castings plus coffee grounds for the fruiting substrate in just one of those disposable aluminum pans they sell to cook turkeys in. After fruiting I fed the leftovers back to the worms, full circle.
@@Thingsyourollup What I was wondering, if the worm bin is doing well with taking care of used mycelium? The red wigglers usually nurture by sucking on rot bacteria. But in case of mycelium, it doesn't rot, since the mushroom fights the bacteria. Where hot composting can get to 50° C and the mushroom would die/decompose faster?
I have two worm bins in my cellar and just recently put in a large quantity of failed mycelium that had too much green mold in it. I'm waiting on how well it decomposes...
Or if the fungus gnats just explode :(
Compost it. It will turn into wonderful garden soil!
if you use the same material for both spawn and substrate the results will probably be less divergent
The guy from southwest mushrooms uses substrate as spawn once, he gets just a little drop in yields but not as drastically as yours(he uses master's mix). I think this has to do with lacking of proper nutrients.
Be interesting to see if coffee offsets the supplement issue
Results 3 mites- they must have come from somewhere. I don't think it has the correlation because you use spent substrate as spawn.
It wasn't clear how you harvested the spent spawn from each batch to produce the next. Something occurred to me in looking at the process. Here is an experiment to see if the aging and senescence of repeated reuse of substrate might be mitigated by slective pulling if "starter" spawn for the next cycle.
You start out with a single bag of spawn (round #1). Then you take that any of that spawn and layer it in the next bag with new substrate. So, in round #2, we will have a bag of, say, 7" of old spawn, with 7" of new straw substrate on top, then 7" of old spawn topped with 7" of new straw and so on.
In round #3, if we only take mycelia from the newer substrate from round #2, and layer it with fresh substrate, we are in a sense, propagating "young" mycelia. We would only be dealing with 2nd generation spawn throughout.
In order to insure (as much as possible) that we never have spawn older than 2 generations, we could dye or not dye the new substrate each round. So, in this instance, in round #2, the new straw would be dyed blue (or whatever). Then, in cycle #3, only the blue-dyed straw would be collected for innoculation and it would be layered with undyed new substrate. For #4, the undyed spawn from generation layered once again with dyed spawn and so on.
Over time, senescence would eventually creep in, but with the constant renewal, it wouldn't be as quick as what you experienced, assuming you didn't take the precautions I have outlined in each generation. Of course, the mites issue wouldn't be affected, but with strict heat treatment of the substrate, it might never arise.
What do you think?
any difference in taste? maybe aged mycelium make tasty mushrooms!
I am not convinced that “aging” is the explanation. If you think of the life cycle of mushroom, the term aging does not sound right.
Anyone like this video first before me! I dont want to be the triple 6 liker of this video lols
Maybe say things once instead of repeating your self saying the same thing multiple times. On the whole, I am grateful you performed and recorded this experiment.
Very useful, thank you