in Australia, warranty under Trade Practices Act overrules any manufacturer warranty. therefore, goods must be "fit for purpose". if a bike can't go on a bike trainer, it is not "fit for purpose". this statutory warranty can be enforced no matter what bike manufacturer / shop says. Case closed!
Hi Shane, Normally I wont comment on youtube but now I have to contribute on the topic. Recently my Felt b14 developed a problem in the bottom bracket bb30 and started making clicking noise. So I contacted the local importer and send them a video about the issue while pedaling on turbo. They never told me anything that would indicate to the bike being prone to issues on turbo etc. even if they easily could of. It seems their bikes are not that sensitive and to me they are always one of the best bang for your buck. Maybe people need to stay away from bikes like trek and specialized if they cant even take the training on turbo and go for felt ? Now after couple weeks I´m getting new frame and actually it is even two models up to Felt b2 since their warranty frames are better than what I had. I would say this was great service. I wanted to buy a specialized tarmac as my new road bike but after this video you just made I wont buy anything from them. Companies already rip us off with their pricing. Its a god damn bicycle and no it did not cost 6000-12000 to make. Like we have seen on the carbon specialist videos. if they all use t700-800 grade since it is the most suitable then why we buy frames with 10 times more that its worth ? Good stuff you have here in the channel. Keep it up :)
Well said. It's just a cop out to replace bikes or if they discover you've used an indoor trainer and then the next week something fails and you no longer have warranty. But the keyword is 'may' end your warranty. And that's down to discretion so if they have a big problem they can just go on like nothing has happened but most of the time will say warranty is void. It's in the terms and conditions. You know, that thing you read while the shopkeeper looks at you impatiently.
BigStu: Reply to your comment that went missing.... Hmm. ok. The tactic of showing/promoting/marketing of these frames being used in ways the general consumer isn't supported with? That doesn't sit well with me. Being able to ride and unlock virtual bikes online that the manufacturer recommends against using on an indoor trainer.... That doesn't sit well with me. If this results in these companies firming up their position, good. At least we'll know. If they update their policy to allow trainer usage, excellent. My intensions are to shed some light on these polices and hopefully have them changed, in favour of the customer. If not, and I'm simply shitlisted by the companies mentioned.... well, I tried.
I admire your glass half-full attitude but don't agree in companies always acting in good faith, if anything my experience in Australia is the polar opposite. In fairness it's often not the company themselves but the distributer, who think it's perfectly acceptable to impose (often significant) markups, but not provide any real support in return. The manufacturer doesn't have to prove anything, they are often saying they will decide whether a claim is allowed. That is a complete nonsense in my opinion. A dispute then needs to be entered into, when there should be no dispute to begin with. If the bike is being used in a reasonable manner that would be considered fair use, then it should not be subjected to any special "grey area" imposed at the manufacturer's whim, because that use just so happened to be a trainer.
You're missing the point. There should not be a "no" involved. This shouldn't be a "grey area". There is no need for it to be a grey area. Why should any consumer be forced to enter into a dispute with a manufacturer/distributer on what should be fair use of the product. You obviously have more time than many of us if you think that's a reasonable consumer process to enter into merely because the manufacturer wants to decide whether they will stand behind their own product! Using a bicycle on a stationary trainer is fair use, it should therefore be covered by the standard product warranty. End of story.
Right on! Great topic to bring to the fore. I have my S-Works on a trainer and have for many year. Now with Zwift, I have one dedicated to just sit on a trainer so I can ride it year round to supplement my outdoor training. I love the group rides and the structured workouts. Their are things I can do on Zwift now quickly and easily that is hard to do on the road. Keep pounding.
Mate, good on your for brining it up! We have two Specialized carbon bikes as well, in fact all our accessories are from them too. I seriously would like to request Specialized to confirm that there would be no warranty issue if we use our bikes on the trainers like Wahoo!! If I knew they are not standing behind their products, I would have definitely buy into another brand. What a shame 👎🏻
Shane Miller it is a very important issue for me as I plan on buying a new bike with in the next 12 months. I use Zwift all the time. So this will effect my decision on brands I look at.
Nope, it doesn't matter. What matters is consumers not being screwed around... and being shown, sold, force fed marketing showing them doing one thing you can't do yourself on the same products. That's shite.
I've been watching your channel for a while now and really enjoy it. Thank you for the information that you put out, things I probably would not even think about until it is too late.
Always on point, Shane! This is my (and many others) fear of getting a nice carbon frame. Trainers are blowing up, these companies need to get with the program. I hope your rants tickle a nerve with the right people.
I have to say I laughed so hard when you were talking about Canyon. How can you market a bike using ergo trainers, support pro teams that use your bikes on ergo trainers and sell ergo' on your own website but turn around and say the general public can't use their own bikes on an ergo. Why sell ergo's on your own website if your not supposed to use your bikes with them? Some of these larger Bike manufacture's need to change their policies when it comes to supporting customers or just outright say you can't use them.... don't just wait till people buy the equipment before say "oh yeah by the way I know you just spend £6,000 on a race bike to look like the pro's but you can't use it for any of the things they use it for... "
Great video - with intelligent, logical and common-sense points - as usual Shane. Totally agree and has been irking me for a while now. Just covering their asses! Next they will be printing "may contain nuts" on the frames 😂. Good on Boardman for being upstanding on this (owned 2 Boardman bikes in the past, great bikes and customer service was always quick and hassle-free) 👍
Hear Hear Shane, this is an important topic … thank you for leading the charge! I don't have a CF bike, but agree that manufactures should stand behind their product, cycle companies included; unless it can be shown that the equipment (frame) has been abused. I definitely wouldn't consider using a turbo / smart trainer abusing a bike, riding it is the intended use, it just happens to not be outside on the road when using a trainer.
Really nice topic never thought about turbo trainer warranty on a bike. that's a new box to tick when buying a bike. I would like to see more interesting videos like this, I cant believe they don't cover turbo trainers, I'm still shaking my head long after watching your informative fact finding mission. Big WELL DONE from me
It was excellent from the point of view of a customer, cycling customers need more people like you, you seem to have a factual unbiased opinion and willing to back it up with facts. wouldn't it be interesting to have a website that pointed them issues out on a bike like a tick chart, or is there one already. Again WELL DONE
I have a Trek Emonda which according to your warranty description from road.cc is a "trainer grey zone" manufacturer. I am only 65 kg and given the lack of frame damage being reported by folks on trainers it is a small theoretical risk. Cheers
I broke my old Trek 5200 on my old Elite fluid trainer and to my surprise Trek replaced it (they gave me a choice of a Madone or Domane frame). With smart trainers and Zwift growing in popularity, and many of us living in climates where riding outdoors is almost impossible for part of the year, some manufacturers' warranty policies seem out of touch.
Bang on. Indoor cycling is now just another option for what riding we can choose to do. It's no longer a niche. The stats I'm pulling from Strava show this as clear as day.
As a specialized dealer I can add a little info to this issue. Late last year specialized issued my shop a recall memo regarding the rear drop out of the venge vias. They've had reports that some people's bikes have been falling out of ergo trainers. They sent us some updated derailleur hangers to replace on all our venge vias customer bikes. These updated hangers have a security tab on them similar to the front fork where the wheel doesn't fall out as soon as you release the QR skewer. In my opinion it's the users responsibility to secure their bikes properly before they hop on the ergo. every trainer I sell I make sure to inform the customer to familiarize themselves with the trainer and even read through the instruction manual before attempting to use it. Most ppl do this but there's a handful that don't and they are the ones who are coming back to me demanding I fix their bikes for them because of their own idiocracy. I had one customer refuse to use the steel QR skewer provided because he says the silver QR doesn't look good and as a result his bike feel off the trainer. some don't tighten the QR tight enough on direct drive trainers and then their bikes fall off. I think a lot of the big bike brands are having difficulty defining their warranty terms regarding ergo trainers because of the fact that it goes both ways. it's hard to put a warranty on your own ignorance or misuse of the product and then blame someone else when something goes wrong even if it was your own fault. But I do understand where you are coming from, from a customer point of view.
+G0LFII Cheers for the comment. I will make a point of doing a 'How to' video this week on best practice for putting a bike on an indoor trainer, all of them! Hopefully it'll go a little way in helping here.
I just purchased a Giant Advanced defy 2. (Carbon) Giant said if I used the correct Skewer on a Turbo trainer, then my bike is 100% covered under the warranty.
Interesting.. which Giant store? I have a TCR which I used in a Kurt Kinetic trainer for Sufferfest etc. When I took the bike back for a routine service they told me one of the rear drop-puts has been crushed / eroded away. Immediately said trainers are not covered by warranty :(
I think the big reason brands says to dont use their carbon bikes on trainers is because some people might dont know how to set their bikes on trainers, and there is also the possibilitie of doing some sprints balacing too much and that can cause some damage on you because you can fall, and on your bike. I can see no other reason on how you can damage a frame on turbo, but i have seen people who dont put their bikes correctly on turbos, and that can really be an issue. I agree 200% with you, and i will spread the message to the people who are afraid of indoor trainers with carbon bikes.
Some people don't know how to ride bikes outside too... that's why they don't cover normal crashes. It's pretty obvious when someone has fallen off a turbo, or misused the skewer, compared to a manufacturing fault appearing when someone uses an ergo....that then will have to pay for the fault themselves. That's the injustice that can occur here. And it's not fair. See my video today about how to correctly mount a bike on a trainer, let's hope a few of these people watch that too. :)
Yes, thats true. Ouh..i didn´t noticed that you have made a new one! Amazing! (And yeah, there is a ton of people who dont know how to ride outside, thats why i dont like to ride with stragers!! But thats another question, but a vital one)
Just about everyone is riding Zwift on carbon as far as I know and understand. I have a Boardman Pro Carbon, and I'm stoked that they say 'No problem', highly underestimated company. Great bikes and after service.
Meh, not surprised about Specialized. I asked shop which tool I needed to remove my crank to replace with another. A throw away comment was "If you bought the bike from us, you'll need us to do it, otherwise you'll void your warranty". If I recall, it was $50 to do it.
I just managed a new 5s PB of 12W/kg on my Triton crit frame, and the bike seemed to love it. I on the hand was utterly broken for about 2hrs. If a low/mid end, relatively low grade frame can take a peak of 1400W through the bb shell and chainstays, then it's pretty much guaranteed that the bikes of Pro's who can top out at almost 2000W at the start of a sprint would be fine too. As everyone else says this stinks of manufacturer greed.
My guess is that it's just an easy way to deal with the issue (well, if there is an issue?). A few words in a policy vs a few hours and $ in the R&D department. Surely it's time for the latter by these big players, especially when they market and sell the dream as they do.
No issue (I hope)! but thinking logically, any given bike's rear end is restrained identically on a wheel as it is on a turbo, at least on a direct drive, so the stresses ARE identical too. Therefore nobody should worry about damaging their frame on one. If mine fails or cracks at any point there'll be a warranty claim and zero mentions of turbos. They'll have to prove otherwise - and won't be able to
I've been hesitant to upload my rants... if you know me in person, I have them often. This was worthy of an upload though. Let's hope for some positive change.
Shane, I think if you strongly feel that your rants are accurate and and not some bias opinion, then I think you should upload more of them. Problem is with the Cycling Industry is that a lot of media sites and review sites are being " gifted " items from Bike and Parts manufactures and we never really get to read the truth. Road.CC Asked the question, outlined the warranty and never really gave us anything. By the way, I own 2 S-Works bikes also, as does my dad who uses Trainers 5x a week, so this type of thing needs to be resolved
Great vid, I did not think this was an issue because so many people use trainers. I guess it is not an issue until something happens. Hope the big name companies re-evaluate customer usage/intent.
I hadn't personally come across this, so thanks for raising this Shane. Is it mainly an Australian warranty issue or worldwide? A fairly ubiquitous frame rigidity test firmly clamps the rear dropout for measurement, so presumably that would be another thing to void the warranty! In the real world some people may purchase a frame and ride it through potholed salty seaside downpours its whole life, alternatively others ride exclusively on billiard table smooth surfaces with never more than 60% humidity. It an extremely variable environment and I can't see any warranty issues there. In contrast trainers are a very controlled environment, and I'm afraid if any manufacturer claims their frames aren't tested in that environment in my opinion that would come down to their laziness and not the inability to actually test them. In the meanwhile, if some manufacturers believe their frames are so crap they can't stand up to usage on a trainer, maybe the best alternative is to avoid purchasing them ;) BTW fitting a frame with strain gauges would be an interesting exercise to compare between real life and trainer use. At face value it would seem the trainer would place more strain on the frame, but when sprinting in real life the bike can often be at some fairly acute angles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the torsional values were higher in real life than on a trainer, where the bike is held perfectly vertical. At the end of the day that power needs to get down to the wheel!
Holy shit, Shane! Brilliant Rant. I just purchased a Wahoo Kickr and l love the freakin thing. Unfortunately for me....I have a 2016 Sworks Tarmac and was looking to purchase a Canyon Ultimate this year when they drop in the US. I won't be making that purchase unless they change their warranty. What do we ( consumers )need to do to help you get these guys to listen? It really is a load of rubbish for these guys to back out like that.....Canyon/Specialized!
Ask them to clarify their position.... and maybe justify their position on breakages. Is it that they don't know (Specialized admit this), or is it they are do see breakages of the frames (that we don't see anywhere...?)
Nice one Shane, companies can't say 'no ergo's allowed' then post pics of pro teams warming up/down on them. Canyon and Specialized need to up date their warranty 'cos this just wont wash I'm afraid, they stand to lose a lot of business/sales if they don't. I don't own a Spec or Canyon nor do I intend on buying one especially after the comments on Road.cc.
yep you knocked the nail on the head. First comes requirements. Are they seriously suggesting they have undertaken a requirements gathering exercise and had NOBODY say there is a need for using the bike indoor? Then you TEST the requirements. In which you verifying and validating. Did we build the right thing, and did we build it correctly?
Great video !! Guess I won’t be getting a specialized. My giant has had part of the dropout worn away where the skewer holds it to the trainer. Because of this the bolt tilted and causing poor shifts. I’ve since has to insert a steel washer between the frame and the skewer bolts. It helps but not 100%. It’s really to bad they didn’t make that better. Not sure if I can get the carbon repaired
Yep. That's *really* really poor policy in my books. I'm sure your Aeroad will be fine on a trainer, if you're using at as per the trainer manufacturer recommendations. All this change will take is for these brands to do a small amount of testing... and to change their tune to support their loyal customers. It's an easy win.
Why would your carbon get damaged in a trainer any more so than riding it outside on the road? There's no data indicating it will. Alloy fatigue on the other hand.....
I've confirmation from Lapierre that warranty is void if I use my bike on trainer. Such a pity to have this in 2022, when indoor training is so popular!
Important issue! Maybe not big as you say but important! Thanks for the ”start” of this conundrum. I own a Cannondale synapse ultegra and a tacx neo smart trainer. I bought them both last year. And it’s not like “hey my bike broke so I go poop out some more money” - no it would really hurt my bank account. So the warranty issue is a very important issue. I don’t know where Cannondale stands on the matter unfortunately and hopefully I don’t have to find out. But! I have seen some “metal dust” on the trainer and been really worried! Where does it come from? Is the trainer wearing down my bike frame??? Or is from the trainer itself?? Quit worrisome I must say. Even though Im not a big follower of social media I do agree with the fact that you state that it “rallys” with wrath if something is a big problem (most of the time it seems anyway) But the cycling community? Are they social media rally people? (don’t know?) How many “dark figures” of broken bikes on trainers are there that we don’t know of ? 50 000 people round the world that uses zwift is surprisingly small actually now that I hear the numbers ant think about them. Hopefully it will grow, since it’s a super great way to do your winter cycling. (fore those of us who don’t like to ride outside between 5 degrees Celsius and -15 degrees Celsius. !! BUT…does our expensive carbon bikes stand for the pressure ???? I’m a bit worried….
wow. thanks Shane, I wont be buying a canyon then if they think its too week for turbo trainers....I can buy a much better bike from boardman for the same money. (bang/buck = W/Kg)
Guy I know bought a 5000+ aeroad after 1000kms notices hairline crack. Sends it back, no questions asked by Canyon. Second time same thing happens, no questions asked by Canyon. Third time this time coming down descent sits on top tube- Crack- (another guy same situation) bike in half with few injuries. He sends email saying third time this happened and theres a problem with the toptubes, being honest about sitting on the.top tube. Canyon says it's not in their warranty and say that only pros should do that where its worth cracking a frame by sitting on TT for winning a race suggesting that it happens often with their bikes. Obviously they trying to save weight in places that need more reinforcement and save money while doing it This is not saying don't buy from Canyon. Just a warning.
I've been watching the UCI World Road championship TTT at Innsbruck- Tirol... I noticed that Specialized and Bianci seem to have no problem with their sponsor teams using their frame attached to a tacx neo to warm up or indeed Pinarello and sky using the wahoo kickr. Have teams like quick-step floors or bora voided their warranty? I bet specialized would have not told Sagan he can't use his signature bike on a tacx neo Why are professional cyclist's who are more capable of 1500w + outputs less likely than a 60kg 46yo with an FTP of < 300w to break their frame? I was told by my specialized dealer to definitely not put my S-Works Tarmac on my Tacx Neo :(
A few points: 1) Bicycle warranties will always be a murky world because bicycle owners maintain, service and fix their own bikes. Most of us would never dream of working on our car, boiler, washing machine etc, but bikes are easy. Our bikes, therefore, are at the mercy of a plethora of tools from the very expensive and highly engineered to the total rubbish. And turbo trainers are tools, for the purposes of this discussion. Our bikes are also at the mercy of us, the consumer, and we vary from the highly skilled and experienced to the total numpty. 2) How many bicycle frames ever get warrantied, never mind as a result of a turbo trainer? My guess is not many. 3) If you're really worried about it (I don't think anybody is) buy a cheap second bike to put on your turbo.
Just listening to the Specialized bit, in the UK all the Specialized concept stores sell Neo's as thats where i bought mine from... Seem strange that a sales person would take your money when buying a Specialized bike and Neo trainer but not say that its not covered under warranty.... Theres no way a sales person wouldnt be honest when it comes to money?
Same with BMC. No mention online of trainer usage, see pro teams using their SLR's on trainers all the time, buy one and in the user manual it states to not use the bike in a trainer! Madness!
My 2016 Giant Advanced 2 cracked in the middle of the seat tube on the tire side (back side) of the tube today. I am gutted, I have only been riding on my Wahoo Snap for 2 months. The bike has never been laid down nor kept anywhere but in the spare bedroom.
You right, there's no data but if for ever reason my dropout breaks and my trek will not support my warranty on my carbon frame. Why take the chance? when I get buy a used trek 2.1 and don't care if it breaks or not!
Shane, I'm not a lawyer and I haven't read all 250 comments on here so this may have already been raised. My understanding is under Australian Consumer Law every product purchased new in Australia comes with a Consumer Guarantee, if you bike a carbon bike from a retailer and state you intend to use it on a turbo trainer and it subsequently fails the retailer must help resolve the problem through repair, replacement or refund. The consumer guarantee is in addition to any manufacturer warranty. So if you can prove you advised the retailer you intended to use the bike on a trainer and they sell you the bike they are liable all other things being equal.
Might be a dumb question but, how could you brake your bike on a indoor trainer? Other then standing up and sprinting and mashing the bike back a forth till it brakes?
The assumption is it puts more stress on the frame at the rear dropouts / stays.... Note "assumption".... there's no data or no indication this is the case. It makes enough sense that a lot of people will believe it to be true. And sure, it's a good theory... but we're not seeing the breakages these warranties appear to be protecting the brands from. More on this.... when you're outside the stresses on the frame will be very similar, if not worse as you're generating more power and stressing the bike at different points (handlebars/headset/etc). What about road surface.. if you hit a bump outside (which doesn't happen on an ergo), does this void warranty?
They've clarified on a social media post that they 'do' cover frame usage on a trainer... and admit there's some confusion of their policy. Still to see this corrected in any official form (their website, media release, etc). So it's still buyer beware at this stage. Let's hope they get on top of it. Canyon in particular are a mess on this one.
There is far more documentation of trainers failing then bikes failing. Wahoo has multiple issues you and dc rainmaker have documented and will warranty trainers that simply stop sending power and speed data.
Shane Miller yeah . they need to test for what the customers are actually using their bikes for not just what they think they are using them for . basically they are just being lazy
"User error"... like crashing, or something out of their control. Sure. Let's say the bike has a few voids in the carbon around the rear dropouts... due to an undetected manufacturing issue. (See Raoul's channel for carbon voids).... You're training on an ergo on your $10k bike... and bam. It breaks *due to a manufacturing defect*... Now you're paying the cost of their manufacturing defect. That's not right.
Shane Miller yeah . Well if it's not strong enough to withstand a turbo session then I think they need to have a bit of a redesign because that is not safe . especially over here in the UK and some of the sizes of pot holes I come across
I'm a very heavy rider, riding a Specialized Comp Carbon on a trainer because it is winter over here (Canada). A couple of weeks ago, my back wheel was a bit wobbly so I got the bike to the LBS, fearing a damaged bearing. The bearing was not damaged but the axle inside the hub was. The LBS contacted Specialized about the part, Specialized agreed that the part was under designed, replaced it, and absorbed the cost. Everyone in the loop knows that the bike was on a trainer, everyone knows I'm overweight. Nobody cared. We have to distinguish between the "lawyerese" and the reality of the service we get from the LBS/manufacturer. I doubt bikes break because of trainers, and I doubt that the manufacturers would actually stiff the buyers. Do you have information to the contrary? On a slightly different subject; my Tacx Ironman trainer shorted mid workout, of course just a few months out of warranty. This type of problem is NOT unheard of; it's been happening for a long while. What does Tacx do? Fix the problem? Nope. So new trainer, but not a Tacx. That would have been foolish...
Good to hear Specialized sorted you out. The issue I have is that current policy is setup to stiff the customers... if the LBS/manufacturer chooses to provide service above and beyond this policy, excellent. But. It can't be relied on, as it clearly states they won't do it. If they're already looking after customers they just need to update the policy. That's a really simple outcome.
Hello, my main point is that Specialized (and others), put all kinds of warnings imposed by their legal departments to protect themselves against lawsuits. For example, the bright yellow stickers on the sides of ladders telling you that getting on the ladder is dangerous. I do not believe that they will stop issuing to warnings. As you pointed out, the likelihood of braking a bike that is mounted on a trainer is very, very low, actually zero. My new trainer, a Drivo, holds the bike through its thru axle; how is that functionally different than using a wheel on the road? Not much, if at all. Do I expect damage to the bike? No. If there are no reports of bike being damaged by mounting them on trainers, there won't be any claims to manufacturers, and they can write all the irrelevant warnings that will keep their lawyers happy. If, and when, the problem arises, when can get on the case of the manufacturers, and "rip them a new one" on social media.
Shane Miller I understand that, but it's contradictory when the manufacturers are nervous about fulfilling warranties when you use your bike on the trainer.
It would be really interesting to let Raoul Luescher cut up and inspect the broken frame to see if there was a weakness/manufacturing defect, or if the trainer is to blame.
I think they know, with the computer software they have they would have to. I think its a case of numbers and what ifs, and maybe its insurance company's or their accountants who force them to have this, when I see this I see a numbers game they look at the 10000 bikes they might sell and the comebacks and someone crunches numbers and figures unfortunately we don't see this only their media propaganda so were fooled to hand over the green backs and find out the hard way. but fortunately for the cyclists of the world we have SHANE MILLER.
*and he's as MAD AS HELL! hahaha :) Kidding. I'd just like to have some kind of positive input on the progression here.... those policies can screw the consumer. They need to change. And we're really the only ones who can call them out on it. Other companies, pros, sponsored riders, etc, all can't do it. Their hands are tied.
Canyon//SRAM on Kickrs at events too. I'm not against this... because I don't believe there's an issue. But I'd kind of embarrassing when we find out customers are not afforded the same rights if they $$ for their bikes and use them in the same way.
Shane Miller I agree. I'm not the slightest bit worried myself either. I just find the whole situation pretty bizarre. Great that you're creating awareness, and I hope frame manufacturers sort this mess out.
wouldn't it be interesting to find out where them bikes ended up, possible == sold as display models with warranty lmao then the poor bugger walks back to find out the bike manufacturer busted his warranty before he bought it.
Another iron in the irony fire. I was just reminded that Leah Thorvilson, who won a professional cycling contract via her effort on Zwift and ergo, is sponsored by Canyon. Too funny.
You mention at the end that frames need to be tested using strain guages. German magazine Tour does test frames using weights and guages (as does Ride?) so shouldn't take much to get the info required.
There's an article from a German magazine from a few years back indicating stresses on a frame outside are more than indoors under almost all wattages. I'd ranted enough, I didn't need to mention this. I'd like to see a new set of data with all the new trainers that are on the market (and in my pain cave) :)
My SL4 Tarmac has done over 12,000km on the ergo...across all the ergos that have been made in the last few years. There's no lack of data out there showing correct use of indoor trainers shouldn't be something they need to worry about.
It is a ridiculous situation. Although I guess we can at least take comfort in the fact that if there are no known instances of carbon bikes being broken on trainers then we will not have to put our voided warranties to the test. Incidentally I just checked my Canyon manual and as well as the no trainers thing it also says carbon bars, stems, seatpost and wheels should be replaced every 15,000km or 3 years
and I was thinking my next bike is going to be a canyon NOT A CHANCE there off my list for life because it's obvious there one of them fine print company's.
It wouldn't take them long to change their tune... in fact they could do it in a day. Put the onus back on the customer to correctly use the trainer they own, as per the trainer manual, and problem solved!
I think issues like this are a systemic attitude within a company, its the way their thinking trends head and its not toward the customer, where as it should have been in the first place, so it will always be this way(train an old dog new tricks?), they may fix the issue but you know they don't have your interest at heart, there trending this way from the beginning. like you said its not just giant, sworks, canyon there are more of them doing this, but also like what you said they can fix this issue with extra reinforced carbon in certain areas, they could also sell there bikes as turbo friendly and if they had the customers interests at heart they would be ahead of the game and done this, I don't believe they don't know the facts you pulled off Strava about turbo trainers. big company's pay big money for staff to know this and if they don't know this, there not smart enough to be buying expensive and supposedly technically advanced bikes from. If I had or worked for a bike company like canyon or giant I would be to the point of obsession on knowing these issues and aggressively exploiting them issues against other company's for my company's financial gains. we all know its a jungle out there and life owes you nothing, when your stupid in the jungle you die.
There is also an Aeroad on a KICKR in there *official headquarter / showroom* Koblenz (Germany) - pretty weird. I've got some pictures of it, just in case you want to boost your rage level even more :)
Yes please! This video might have a round two coming up.... Sagan was on his S-Works warming up for Het Nieuwsblad on the weekend. Shoot the pic over to shane@ shanemiller . net
I have used indoor trainers for 10 years. Most of my training between Mon to Fri is on the indoor. I ave 25,000km a year. Half of that is at least on the indoor.. Never, ever broke a bike on the indoor.
I recall something happening there... I don't know the specifics. How it was clamped in, was it already cracked, etc. All questions warranty departments should be looking into and feeding back to the R&D teams. And Abdullah is a beast! :)
Shane Miller might be worth checking with him. I think it turned out to be a difficult warranty case. Definitely not like "No worries we'll send you a new one". Pretty sure it never got replaced or fixed.
So I'll take a guess it never reached a point where they reviewed their frame to determine if it was a manufacturing issue or 'misuse'. Now that'd be an easy out, and one these 'no ergo' policies allow.
Shane Miller Yeah not sure, check with him. He definitely tried. If anything it looks bad on the company and they have a lost a customer forever, who probably won't recommend the brand to anyone else either. You just gotta replace it or help out in some way. I live in the country, we had a wild cat come into our house at 2am one night, it went bonkers, ended up throwing down my brand new 5k iMac and the screen shattered. I told Apple what had happened and they replaced it for free!
wow specialized! and canyon! please back up your trainer usage with your bicycles. I'm a specialized guy too, and is like to know that my bike is covered with the use on my cycle ops trainer
Their wording in the Road.cc article appears to cover all their bikes.... I'd have to review the policy for each bike/frame to be sure. It'd be extremely surprising if this applies to their mountain bikes too.... those things are built for punishment!
been riding my specialized carbon tarmac indoors for the first time this winter... would be absolutely pissed if something were to happen to it and it not be covered. and thanks to specialized i wouldnt even have the option to just buy a middle of the road frameset. im stuck buying a whole bike to replace it.
You'd have to take your own best interests into account and lie about not using an ergo. Which I'm no recommending... but... if a company can't support their own customers, what are the options?
Shane Miller Absolutely. They leave you no choice. I cannot afford a $4000 s works frameset to replace my tarmac comp. i would be forced to jump to another brand which to me seems foolish of them to loose brand loyalty over warrenty issues that dont even seem to be an issue.
i recently got a sworks tarmac but I'm a bit worried that if anything does go wrong I'm rooted. for that reason i just built my old propel up as a trainer bike. A bit of a compromise but does the job setup reasonably close... After hearing about specialized i kinda wish i bought something else but i do love my tarmac so much just wont use it on the kickr just incase 😶
+Rob Bennett Let them know. It's a simple policy change that's required. There's no data showing your bike will break on a trainer. They've got the resources to fix this.
I think I'm actually lucky to have a dealer who would probably fight tooth and nail for me if something did go wrong. But yeh I have been using bikes on Trainers since original Computrainer with NES hookup and never even thought about problems like whats being discussed. But for some reason I just worry about the S-Works :S I have sent an email to Spesh about it for clarification when/if I get a response Ill post it :D
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9miVG2xT5jY/mqdefault.jpg)
"...they know more about RedTube than carbon tubes..." #gold #beersforlama
1/2 listening to this and 1/2 studying and nearly spilled my drink at this lol
in Australia, warranty under Trade Practices Act overrules any manufacturer warranty. therefore, goods must be "fit for purpose". if a bike can't go on a bike trainer, it is not "fit for purpose". this statutory warranty can be enforced no matter what bike manufacturer / shop says. Case closed!
Hi Shane,
Normally I wont comment on youtube but now I have to contribute on the topic.
Recently my Felt b14 developed a problem in the bottom bracket bb30 and started making clicking noise.
So I contacted the local importer and send them a video about the issue while pedaling on turbo.
They never told me anything that would indicate to the bike being prone to issues on turbo etc. even if they easily could of.
It seems their bikes are not that sensitive and to me they are always one of the best bang for your buck.
Maybe people need to stay away from bikes like trek and specialized if they cant even take the training on turbo and go for felt ?
Now after couple weeks I´m getting new frame and actually it is even two models up to Felt b2 since their warranty frames are better than what I had. I would say this was great service.
I wanted to buy a specialized tarmac as my new road bike but after this video you just made I wont buy anything from them.
Companies already rip us off with their pricing. Its a god damn bicycle and no it did not cost 6000-12000 to make.
Like we have seen on the carbon specialist videos. if they all use t700-800 grade since it is the most suitable then why we buy frames with 10 times more that its worth ?
Good stuff you have here in the channel. Keep it up :)
Thanks for the comment mate. Great example of how things should be across the board, where the customer experience is priority, not a punishment.
Well said. It's just a cop out to replace bikes or if they discover you've used an indoor trainer and then the next week something fails and you no longer have warranty. But the keyword is 'may' end your warranty. And that's down to discretion so if they have a big problem they can just go on like nothing has happened but most of the time will say warranty is void. It's in the terms and conditions. You know, that thing you read while the shopkeeper looks at you impatiently.
BigStu: Reply to your comment that went missing....
Hmm. ok. The tactic of showing/promoting/marketing of these frames being used in ways the general consumer isn't supported with? That doesn't sit well with me. Being able to ride and unlock virtual bikes online that the manufacturer recommends against using on an indoor trainer.... That doesn't sit well with me. If this results in these companies firming up their position, good. At least we'll know. If they update their policy to allow trainer usage, excellent. My intensions are to shed some light on these polices and hopefully have them changed, in favour of the customer. If not, and I'm simply shitlisted by the companies mentioned.... well, I tried.
I admire your glass half-full attitude but don't agree in companies always acting in good faith, if anything my experience in Australia is the polar opposite. In fairness it's often not the company themselves but the distributer, who think it's perfectly acceptable to impose (often significant) markups, but not provide any real support in return.
The manufacturer doesn't have to prove anything, they are often saying they will decide whether a claim is allowed. That is a complete nonsense in my opinion. A dispute then needs to be entered into, when there should be no dispute to begin with. If the bike is being used in a reasonable manner that would be considered fair use, then it should not be subjected to any special "grey area" imposed at the manufacturer's whim, because that use just so happened to be a trainer.
You're missing the point. There should not be a "no" involved. This shouldn't be a "grey area". There is no need for it to be a grey area. Why should any consumer be forced to enter into a dispute with a manufacturer/distributer on what should be fair use of the product. You obviously have more time than many of us if you think that's a reasonable consumer process to enter into merely because the manufacturer wants to decide whether they will stand behind their own product! Using a bicycle on a stationary trainer is fair use, it should therefore be covered by the standard product warranty. End of story.
Nice! Get out on your bike and ride a bit more buddy.
Right on! Great topic to bring to the fore. I have my S-Works on a trainer and have for many year. Now with Zwift, I have one dedicated to just sit on a trainer so I can ride it year round to supplement my outdoor training. I love the group rides and the structured workouts. Their are things I can do on Zwift now quickly and easily that is hard to do on the road. Keep pounding.
Mate, good on your for brining it up! We have two Specialized carbon bikes as well, in fact all our accessories are from them too. I seriously would like to request Specialized to confirm that there would be no warranty issue if we use our bikes on the trainers like Wahoo!! If I knew they are not standing behind their products, I would have definitely buy into another brand. What a shame 👎🏻
100% agree with you on this topic.
Thanks Mike. I'm hoping these bike companies will too... and change things up for the customer. That'd be a win win.
Shane Miller it is a very important issue for me as I plan on buying a new bike with in the next 12 months. I use Zwift all the time. So this will effect my decision on brands I look at.
I Zwift quite a lot too... on S-Works bikes. It's just a pity I have to wear the liability if that's ever an issue. Hmmm.
does it really matter what bike you use on a trainer? you aint moving. Cant you just use an ali beater 20 bucks from gumtree?
Nope, it doesn't matter. What matters is consumers not being screwed around... and being shown, sold, force fed marketing showing them doing one thing you can't do yourself on the same products. That's shite.
I've been watching your channel for a while now and really enjoy it. Thank you for the information that you put out, things I probably would not even think about until it is too late.
Nice rant... and thanks, thats Specialized, Canyon off the list.
Always on point, Shane! This is my (and many others) fear of getting a nice carbon frame. Trainers are blowing up, these companies need to get with the program. I hope your rants tickle a nerve with the right people.
I have to say I laughed so hard when you were talking about Canyon. How can you market a bike using ergo trainers, support pro teams that use your bikes on ergo trainers and sell ergo' on your own website but turn around and say the general public can't use their own bikes on an ergo. Why sell ergo's on your own website if your not supposed to use your bikes with them?
Some of these larger Bike manufacture's need to change their policies when it comes to supporting customers or just outright say you can't use them.... don't just wait till people buy the equipment before say "oh yeah by the way I know you just spend £6,000 on a race bike to look like the pro's but you can't use it for any of the things they use it for... "
MRZTORM24 Considering my first road bike and this is making me think twice about keeping Canyon on the short list.
Great video - with intelligent, logical and common-sense points - as usual Shane. Totally agree and has been irking me for a while now. Just covering their asses! Next they will be printing "may contain nuts" on the frames 😂. Good on Boardman for being upstanding on this (owned 2 Boardman bikes in the past, great bikes and customer service was always quick and hassle-free) 👍
Hear Hear Shane, this is an important topic … thank you for leading the charge! I don't have a CF bike, but agree that manufactures should stand behind their product, cycle companies included; unless it can be shown that the equipment (frame) has been abused. I definitely wouldn't consider using a turbo / smart trainer abusing a bike, riding it is the intended use, it just happens to not be outside on the road when using a trainer.
Excellent job Shane! Thanks for bringing this matter up!
Double thumbs up for the vid.
Really nice topic never thought about turbo trainer warranty on a bike. that's a new box to tick when buying a bike.
I would like to see more interesting videos like this, I cant believe they don't cover turbo trainers, I'm still shaking my head long after watching your informative fact finding mission.
Big WELL DONE from me
Let's hope in the near future I can do an update on this.... with good news! This one was all pretty grumpy. :)
It was excellent from the point of view of a customer, cycling customers need more people like you, you seem to have a factual unbiased opinion and willing to back it up with facts. wouldn't it be interesting to have a website that pointed them issues out on a bike like a tick chart, or is there one already.
Again WELL DONE
Now we know where Shane goes when Von is away. :D
Hey, I believe I have a firm grip on..... carbon fibre. :)
Thought I'd pressed 1.5x speed. Top stuff Mr.Lama
I'm still in the climbing gear.... just wait for when I put it in the BIG DOG and really get moving! ;)
lol
A topic worthy of investigation. Very happy you took it on.
+Normand Robert Cheers. I'd be happier if I didn't have to. After all, it's the offerings of these $$ companies I'm trying to help.
I have a Trek Emonda which according to your warranty description from road.cc is a "trainer grey zone" manufacturer. I am only 65 kg and given the lack of frame damage being reported by folks on trainers it is a small theoretical risk. Cheers
Great video. Keep at it. Canyon was on my list for my next bike. Not any more.
+Marco Stevens I'm sure they make a great bike, that will withstand trainer usage. They just need to test, confirm, and update their policy.
Well said! A disc bike with a thru axle should be very stiff/strong trainer wise
I broke my old Trek 5200 on my old Elite fluid trainer and to my surprise Trek replaced it (they gave me a choice of a Madone or Domane frame). With smart trainers and Zwift growing in popularity, and many of us living in climates where riding outdoors is almost impossible for part of the year, some manufacturers' warranty policies seem out of touch.
Bang on. Indoor cycling is now just another option for what riding we can choose to do. It's no longer a niche. The stats I'm pulling from Strava show this as clear as day.
Well said Shane!
As a specialized dealer I can add a little info to this issue. Late last year specialized issued my shop a recall memo regarding the rear drop out of the venge vias. They've had reports that some people's bikes have been falling out of ergo trainers. They sent us some updated derailleur hangers to replace on all our venge vias customer bikes. These updated hangers have a security tab on them similar to the front fork where the wheel doesn't fall out as soon as you release the QR skewer. In my opinion it's the users responsibility to secure their bikes properly before they hop on the ergo. every trainer I sell I make sure to inform the customer to familiarize themselves with the trainer and even read through the instruction manual before attempting to use it. Most ppl do this but there's a handful that don't and they are the ones who are coming back to me demanding I fix their bikes for them because of their own idiocracy. I had one customer refuse to use the steel QR skewer provided because he says the silver QR doesn't look good and as a result his bike feel off the trainer. some don't tighten the QR tight enough on direct drive trainers and then their bikes fall off. I think a lot of the big bike brands are having difficulty defining their warranty terms regarding ergo trainers because of the fact that it goes both ways. it's hard to put a warranty on your own ignorance or misuse of the product and then blame someone else when something goes wrong even if it was your own fault. But I do understand where you are coming from, from a customer point of view.
+G0LFII Cheers for the comment. I will make a point of doing a 'How to' video this week on best practice for putting a bike on an indoor trainer, all of them! Hopefully it'll go a little way in helping here.
+G0LFII (and I just typed that reply on my Shiv on an ergo between intervals) 👍🏼
I just purchased a Giant Advanced defy 2. (Carbon) Giant said if I used the correct Skewer on a Turbo trainer, then my bike is 100% covered under the warranty.
Is it in writing? I've come across a lot of people singing different tunes... even when representing/selling products from the same company.
Shane Miller Yeah Shane I bought a Giant TCR last year and the dealer were absolutete kunts. So different answers everywhere..
Interesting.. which Giant store? I have a TCR which I used in a Kurt Kinetic trainer for Sufferfest etc. When I took the bike back for a routine service they told me one of the rear drop-puts has been crushed / eroded away. Immediately said trainers are not covered by warranty :(
I spoke to Giant uk direct.
Well put together and interesting ideas lama. Cheers
I think the big reason brands says to dont use their carbon bikes on trainers is because some people might dont know how to set their bikes on trainers, and there is also the possibilitie of doing some sprints balacing too much and that can cause some damage on you because you can fall, and on your bike. I can see no other reason on how you can damage a frame on turbo, but i have seen people who dont put their bikes correctly on turbos, and that can really be an issue. I agree 200% with you, and i will spread the message to the people who are afraid of indoor trainers with carbon bikes.
Some people don't know how to ride bikes outside too... that's why they don't cover normal crashes. It's pretty obvious when someone has fallen off a turbo, or misused the skewer, compared to a manufacturing fault appearing when someone uses an ergo....that then will have to pay for the fault themselves. That's the injustice that can occur here. And it's not fair. See my video today about how to correctly mount a bike on a trainer, let's hope a few of these people watch that too. :)
Yes, thats true. Ouh..i didn´t noticed that you have made a new one! Amazing! (And yeah, there is a ton of people who dont know how to ride outside, thats why i dont like to ride with stragers!! But thats another question, but a vital one)
Well said Shane. 👍👍
Just about everyone is riding Zwift on carbon as far as I know and understand. I have a Boardman Pro Carbon, and I'm stoked that they say 'No problem', highly underestimated company. Great bikes and after service.
Feeling the passion on this one. There is good opportunity here for bike companies to up their game. Who wants to be left behind?
Meh, not surprised about Specialized. I asked shop which tool I needed to remove my crank to replace with another. A throw away comment was "If you bought the bike from us, you'll need us to do it, otherwise you'll void your warranty". If I recall, it was $50 to do it.
+tk38 Customer wasn't #1 there then!
I just managed a new 5s PB of 12W/kg on my Triton crit frame, and the bike seemed to love it.
I on the hand was utterly broken for about 2hrs.
If a low/mid end, relatively low grade frame can take a peak of 1400W through the bb shell and chainstays, then it's pretty much guaranteed that the bikes of Pro's who can top out at almost 2000W at the start of a sprint would be fine too. As everyone else says this stinks of manufacturer greed.
My guess is that it's just an easy way to deal with the issue (well, if there is an issue?). A few words in a policy vs a few hours and $ in the R&D department. Surely it's time for the latter by these big players, especially when they market and sell the dream as they do.
No issue (I hope)! but thinking logically, any given bike's rear end is restrained identically on a wheel as it is on a turbo, at least on a direct drive, so the stresses ARE identical too.
Therefore nobody should worry about damaging their frame on one. If mine fails or cracks at any point there'll be a warranty claim and zero mentions of turbos. They'll have to prove otherwise - and won't be able to
Love this video! Needs to go viral!
I've been hesitant to upload my rants... if you know me in person, I have them often. This was worthy of an upload though. Let's hope for some positive change.
Shane, I think if you strongly feel that your rants are accurate and and not some bias opinion, then I think you should upload more of them. Problem is with the Cycling Industry is that a lot of media sites and review sites are being " gifted " items from Bike and Parts manufactures and we never really get to read the truth. Road.CC Asked the question, outlined the warranty and never really gave us anything. By the way, I own 2 S-Works bikes also, as does my dad who uses Trainers 5x a week, so this type of thing needs to be resolved
Brilliant I completely agree. This must be addressed by the manufacturers
Way to go Shane, very well said.
Great vid, I did not think this was an issue because so many people use trainers. I guess it is not an issue until something happens. Hope the big name companies re-evaluate customer usage/intent.
Using your bike correctly on an indoor trainer isn't an issue, this is the first thing I explain.
Brilliant vlog Shane, I too found the bit in the canyon manual after purchase, nice bike but that bit is sus.
I hadn't personally come across this, so thanks for raising this Shane. Is it mainly an Australian warranty issue or worldwide?
A fairly ubiquitous frame rigidity test firmly clamps the rear dropout for measurement, so presumably that would be another thing to void the warranty!
In the real world some people may purchase a frame and ride it through potholed salty seaside downpours its whole life, alternatively others ride exclusively on billiard table smooth surfaces with never more than 60% humidity. It an extremely variable environment and I can't see any warranty issues there. In contrast trainers are a very controlled environment, and I'm afraid if any manufacturer claims their frames aren't tested in that environment in my opinion that would come down to their laziness and not the inability to actually test them. In the meanwhile, if some manufacturers believe their frames are so crap they can't stand up to usage on a trainer, maybe the best alternative is to avoid purchasing them ;)
BTW fitting a frame with strain gauges would be an interesting exercise to compare between real life and trainer use. At face value it would seem the trainer would place more strain on the frame, but when sprinting in real life the bike can often be at some fairly acute angles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the torsional values were higher in real life than on a trainer, where the bike is held perfectly vertical. At the end of the day that power needs to get down to the wheel!
Go Shane go! The hypocrisy of Canyon and Specialized is pathetic!
+Rixter It just needs to be calibrated. :) I'm going into bat for them here to get it sorted.
Holy shit, Shane! Brilliant Rant. I just purchased a Wahoo Kickr and l love the freakin thing. Unfortunately for me....I have a 2016 Sworks Tarmac and was looking to purchase a Canyon Ultimate this year when they drop in the US. I won't be making that purchase unless they change their warranty. What do we ( consumers )need to do to help you get these guys to listen?
It really is a load of rubbish for these guys to back out like that.....Canyon/Specialized!
Ask them to clarify their position.... and maybe justify their position on breakages. Is it that they don't know (Specialized admit this), or is it they are do see breakages of the frames (that we don't see anywhere...?)
Nice one Shane, companies can't say 'no ergo's allowed' then post pics of pro teams warming up/down on them. Canyon and Specialized need to up date their warranty 'cos this just wont wash I'm afraid, they stand to lose a lot of business/sales if they don't. I don't own a Spec or Canyon nor do I intend on buying one especially after the comments on Road.cc.
My fear: Companies will update their warranties and, therefore, update their prices...higher...to cover any possible loss. It's all BS.
Can their prices go any higher? I was set to upgrade last year.... but the quote I received put a stop to that.
yep you knocked the nail on the head. First comes requirements. Are they seriously suggesting they have undertaken a requirements gathering exercise and had NOBODY say there is a need for using the bike indoor? Then you TEST the requirements. In which you verifying and validating. Did we build the right thing, and did we build it correctly?
As always, spot on, Shane!
Cheers. I'm not always spot on. But I will always be loud! ;)
Great video !! Guess I won’t be getting a specialized. My giant has had part of the dropout worn away where the skewer holds it to the trainer. Because of this the bolt tilted and causing poor shifts. I’ve since has to insert a steel washer between the frame and the skewer bolts. It helps but not 100%.
It’s really to bad they didn’t make that better. Not sure if I can get the carbon repaired
Great video mate !
PREACHIN LAMA! Great stuff🤘🏻🌿
Kudos for the Comical Ali reference!
I use my Canyon Aeroad with my trainer all the time. I also found out, that it damages caused by trainers are not covered after I bought the bike.
Yep. That's *really* really poor policy in my books. I'm sure your Aeroad will be fine on a trainer, if you're using at as per the trainer manufacturer recommendations. All this change will take is for these brands to do a small amount of testing... and to change their tune to support their loyal customers. It's an easy win.
Well said Shane.
That's why I have aluminum trek 2.1 alpha with my wahoo kickr! I didn't want to worry about my carbon frame getting damage by my trainer
Why would your carbon get damaged in a trainer any more so than riding it outside on the road? There's no data indicating it will. Alloy fatigue on the other hand.....
Thanx Shane
I've confirmation from Lapierre that warranty is void if I use my bike on trainer. Such a pity to have this in 2022, when indoor training is so popular!
They really need to move on from 1995 with that policy.
Important issue! Maybe not big as you say but important!
Thanks for the ”start” of this conundrum.
I own a Cannondale synapse ultegra and a tacx neo smart trainer.
I bought them both last year.
And it’s not like “hey my bike broke so I go poop out some more money” - no it would really hurt my bank account.
So the warranty issue is a very important issue. I don’t know where Cannondale stands on the matter unfortunately and hopefully I don’t have to find out.
But!
I have seen some “metal dust” on the trainer and been really worried! Where does it come from? Is the trainer wearing down my bike frame??? Or is from the trainer itself?? Quit worrisome I must say.
Even though Im not a big follower of social media I do agree with the fact that you state that it “rallys” with wrath if something is a big problem (most of the time it seems anyway) But the cycling community? Are they social media rally people? (don’t know?) How many “dark figures” of broken bikes on trainers are there that we don’t know of ? 50 000 people round the world that uses zwift is surprisingly small actually now that I hear the numbers ant think about them. Hopefully it will grow, since it’s a super great way to do your winter cycling. (fore those of us who don’t like to ride outside between 5 degrees Celsius and -15 degrees Celsius. !! BUT…does our expensive carbon bikes stand for the pressure ???? I’m a bit worried….
Thanks. I have additional reasons now not to buy Specialized or Canyon.
wow. thanks Shane, I wont be buying a canyon then if they think its too week for turbo trainers....I can buy a much better bike from boardman for the same money. (bang/buck = W/Kg)
Guy I know bought a 5000+ aeroad after 1000kms notices hairline crack. Sends it back, no questions asked by Canyon. Second time same thing happens, no questions asked by Canyon. Third time this time coming down descent sits on top tube- Crack- (another guy same situation) bike in half with few injuries. He sends email saying third time this happened and theres a problem with the toptubes, being honest about sitting on the.top tube. Canyon says it's not in their warranty and say that only pros should do that where its worth cracking a frame by sitting on TT for winning a race suggesting that it happens often with their bikes. Obviously they trying to save weight in places that need more reinforcement and save money while doing it
This is not saying don't buy from Canyon. Just a warning.
I've been watching the UCI World Road championship TTT at Innsbruck- Tirol... I noticed that Specialized and Bianci seem to have no problem with their sponsor teams using their frame attached to a tacx neo to warm up or indeed Pinarello and sky using the wahoo kickr. Have teams like quick-step floors or bora voided their warranty? I bet specialized would have not told Sagan he can't use his signature bike on a tacx neo Why are professional cyclist's who are more capable of 1500w + outputs less likely than a 60kg 46yo with an FTP of < 300w to break their frame?
I was told by my specialized dealer to definitely not put my S-Works Tarmac on my Tacx Neo :(
A few points:
1) Bicycle warranties will always be a murky world because bicycle owners maintain, service and fix their own bikes. Most of us would never dream of working on our car, boiler, washing machine etc, but bikes are easy. Our bikes, therefore, are at the mercy of a plethora of tools from the very expensive and highly engineered to the total rubbish. And turbo trainers are tools, for the purposes of this discussion. Our bikes are also at the mercy of us, the consumer, and we vary from the highly skilled and experienced to the total numpty.
2) How many bicycle frames ever get warrantied, never mind as a result of a turbo trainer? My guess is not many.
3) If you're really worried about it (I don't think anybody is) buy a cheap second bike to put on your turbo.
Just listening to the Specialized bit, in the UK all the Specialized concept stores sell Neo's as thats where i bought mine from... Seem strange that a sales person would take your money when buying a Specialized bike and Neo trainer but not say that its not covered under warranty.... Theres no way a sales person wouldnt be honest when it comes to money?
Same with BMC. No mention online of trainer usage, see pro teams using their SLR's on trainers all the time, buy one and in the user manual it states to not use the bike in a trainer! Madness!
The article does not mention Cervelo. Do we know anything about Cervelo's policy on trainers?
I'll have to look into it. If anyone knows or has links, please post here!
My 2016 Giant Advanced 2 cracked in the middle of the seat tube on the tire side (back side) of the tube today. I am gutted, I have only been riding on my Wahoo Snap for 2 months. The bike has never been laid down nor kept anywhere but in the spare bedroom.
BonkerzDeWolfe21 pics..??? Can’t find any pics online...
brilliant! go get 'em lama.
man, that is quite the pisstake from canyon, there!! i thought so highly of them, too!
You right, there's no data but if for ever reason my dropout breaks and my trek will not support my warranty on my carbon frame. Why take the chance? when I get buy a used trek 2.1 and don't care if it breaks or not!
The guy behind the bike shop counter knows more about redtube than bike tube, funniest comment for a long time
Well said!
Huge and well diserved rant on canyon. That's a company know to ship cracked frames to customers. lulz.
thanks for the content.
regards.
Cube do not honour warranty if breakage occurs on a turbo, too.
Shane, I'm not a lawyer and I haven't read all 250 comments on here so this may have already been raised. My understanding is under Australian Consumer Law every product purchased new in Australia comes with a Consumer Guarantee, if you bike a carbon bike from a retailer and state you intend to use it on a turbo trainer and it subsequently fails the retailer must help resolve the problem through repair, replacement or refund. The consumer guarantee is in addition to any manufacturer warranty. So if you can prove you advised the retailer you intended to use the bike on a trainer and they sell you the bike they are liable all other things being equal.
Might be a dumb question but, how could you brake your bike on a indoor trainer? Other then standing up and sprinting and mashing the bike back a forth till it brakes?
The assumption is it puts more stress on the frame at the rear dropouts / stays.... Note "assumption".... there's no data or no indication this is the case. It makes enough sense that a lot of people will believe it to be true. And sure, it's a good theory... but we're not seeing the breakages these warranties appear to be protecting the brands from.
More on this.... when you're outside the stresses on the frame will be very similar, if not worse as you're generating more power and stressing the bike at different points (handlebars/headset/etc). What about road surface.. if you hit a bump outside (which doesn't happen on an ergo), does this void warranty?
Spot on Shane, double standards, Canyon off my shopping list.
They've clarified on a social media post that they 'do' cover frame usage on a trainer... and admit there's some confusion of their policy. Still to see this corrected in any official form (their website, media release, etc). So it's still buyer beware at this stage. Let's hope they get on top of it. Canyon in particular are a mess on this one.
There is far more documentation of trainers failing then bikes failing. Wahoo has multiple issues you and dc rainmaker have documented and will warranty trainers that simply stop sending power and speed data.
ive got a carbon specialized from 2008, used on the trainer a bit and the frame seems to be fine
Seems fine for everyone.... except the companies who make the frames. Who then even admit not knowing/testing if it really is an issue.
Shane Miller yeah . they need to test for what the customers are actually using their bikes for not just what they think they are using them for . basically they are just being lazy
Jack Newman it's a giant company, of course they've done testing. this gives them reason to deny warranty due to user error.
"User error"... like crashing, or something out of their control. Sure. Let's say the bike has a few voids in the carbon around the rear dropouts... due to an undetected manufacturing issue. (See Raoul's channel for carbon voids).... You're training on an ergo on your $10k bike... and bam. It breaks *due to a manufacturing defect*... Now you're paying the cost of their manufacturing defect. That's not right.
Shane Miller yeah . Well if it's not strong enough to withstand a turbo session then I think they need to have a bit of a redesign because that is not safe . especially over here in the UK and some of the sizes of pot holes I come across
Good stuff. By the way, I don't think anyone is surprised by you ranting after the deer incident! Rant away!
I'm a very heavy rider, riding a Specialized Comp Carbon on a trainer because it is winter over here (Canada). A couple of weeks ago, my back wheel was a bit wobbly so I got the bike to the LBS, fearing a damaged bearing. The bearing was not damaged but the axle inside the hub was.
The LBS contacted Specialized about the part, Specialized agreed that the part was under designed, replaced it, and absorbed the cost. Everyone in the loop knows that the bike was on a trainer, everyone knows I'm overweight. Nobody cared.
We have to distinguish between the "lawyerese" and the reality of the service we get from the LBS/manufacturer. I doubt bikes break because of trainers, and I doubt that the manufacturers would actually stiff the buyers. Do you have information to the contrary?
On a slightly different subject; my Tacx Ironman trainer shorted mid workout, of course just a few months out of warranty. This type of problem is NOT unheard of; it's been happening for a long while. What does Tacx do? Fix the problem? Nope. So new trainer, but not a Tacx. That would have been foolish...
Good to hear Specialized sorted you out. The issue I have is that current policy is setup to stiff the customers... if the LBS/manufacturer chooses to provide service above and beyond this policy, excellent. But. It can't be relied on, as it clearly states they won't do it. If they're already looking after customers they just need to update the policy. That's a really simple outcome.
Hello, my main point is that Specialized (and others), put all kinds of warnings imposed by their legal departments to protect themselves against lawsuits. For example, the bright yellow stickers on the sides of ladders telling you that getting on the ladder is dangerous. I do not believe that they will stop issuing to warnings.
As you pointed out, the likelihood of braking a bike that is mounted on a trainer is very, very low, actually zero. My new trainer, a Drivo, holds the bike through its thru axle; how is that functionally different than using a wheel on the road? Not much, if at all. Do I expect damage to the bike? No.
If there are no reports of bike being damaged by mounting them on trainers, there won't be any claims to manufacturers, and they can write all the irrelevant warnings that will keep their lawyers happy. If, and when, the problem arises, when can get on the case of the manufacturers, and "rip them a new one" on social media.
I always wondered if the trainer was damaging, my bike. Now you've got me worried.
No. Watch the start again. There's no data indicating it is a problem. My issue is with the warranty policy. Please don't confuse the two.
Shane Miller I understand that, but it's contradictory when the manufacturers are nervous about fulfilling warranties when you use your bike on the trainer.
Those redtube joke is so true! Some people in LBSs are so inexperienced, they cannot do a proper indexing of gears.
Canyon : Buy our bikes - Buy our trainers BUT don't use our bikes on our trainers............. This is #1 bullshit.
It would be really interesting to let Raoul Luescher cut up and inspect the broken frame to see if there was a weakness/manufacturing defect, or if the trainer is to blame.
Agreed. But this what Specialized should have done. It only to learn more about their own products.
I think they know, with the computer software they have they would have to. I think its a case of numbers and what ifs, and maybe its insurance company's or their accountants who force them to have this, when I see this I see a numbers game they look at the 10000 bikes they might sell and the comebacks and someone crunches numbers and figures unfortunately we don't see this only their media propaganda so were fooled to hand over the green backs and find out the hard way. but fortunately for the cyclists of the world we have SHANE MILLER.
*and he's as MAD AS HELL! hahaha :) Kidding. I'd just like to have some kind of positive input on the progression here.... those policies can screw the consumer. They need to change. And we're really the only ones who can call them out on it. Other companies, pros, sponsored riders, etc, all can't do it. Their hands are tied.
BMC have confirmed in writing, if you put your bike in a turbo the warranty is void!
Come to think of it, the Zwift event in Oslo was at a Specialized dealer, on Specialized bikes. Maybe those bikes were written off after the event? 😂
Canyon//SRAM on Kickrs at events too. I'm not against this... because I don't believe there's an issue. But I'd kind of embarrassing when we find out customers are not afforded the same rights if they $$ for their bikes and use them in the same way.
Shane Miller I agree. I'm not the slightest bit worried myself either. I just find the whole situation pretty bizarre. Great that you're creating awareness, and I hope frame manufacturers sort this mess out.
wouldn't it be interesting to find out where them bikes ended up, possible == sold as display models with warranty lmao then the poor bugger walks back to find out the bike manufacturer busted his warranty before he bought it.
good point 👍
Another iron in the irony fire. I was just reminded that Leah Thorvilson, who won a professional cycling contract via her effort on Zwift and ergo, is sponsored by Canyon. Too funny.
You mention at the end that frames need to be tested using strain guages. German magazine Tour does test frames using weights and guages (as does Ride?) so shouldn't take much to get the info required.
There's an article from a German magazine from a few years back indicating stresses on a frame outside are more than indoors under almost all wattages. I'd ranted enough, I didn't need to mention this. I'd like to see a new set of data with all the new trainers that are on the market (and in my pain cave) :)
yes yes yes, keep the bike makers/ bike sellers honest. Great
CANYON//SRAM team; sponsored by Wahoo and Zwift helping to market those lovely Canyon bikes.
BMC will void warranty too for ergo use. And Specialized is Just one big marketing brand..
Using my specialized on my trainer for over a month, no issues on the bike at all. Maybe i should be their tester.
My SL4 Tarmac has done over 12,000km on the ergo...across all the ergos that have been made in the last few years. There's no lack of data out there showing correct use of indoor trainers shouldn't be something they need to worry about.
I am using tarmac and there is some noise while I am riding. Just hope nothing will break... 😁
It is a ridiculous situation. Although I guess we can at least take comfort in the fact that if there are no known instances of carbon bikes being broken on trainers then we will not have to put our voided warranties to the test. Incidentally I just checked my Canyon manual and as well as the no trainers thing it also says carbon bars, stems, seatpost and wheels should be replaced every 15,000km or 3 years
and I was thinking my next bike is going to be a canyon NOT A CHANCE there off my list for life because it's obvious there one of them fine print company's.
It wouldn't take them long to change their tune... in fact they could do it in a day. Put the onus back on the customer to correctly use the trainer they own, as per the trainer manual, and problem solved!
I think issues like this are a systemic attitude within a company, its the way their thinking trends head and its not toward the customer, where as it should have been in the first place, so it will always be this way(train an old dog new tricks?), they may fix the issue but you know they don't have your interest at heart, there trending this way from the beginning. like you said its not just giant, sworks, canyon there are more of them doing this, but also like what you said they can fix this issue with extra reinforced carbon in certain areas, they could also sell there bikes as turbo friendly and if they had the customers interests at heart they would be ahead of the game and done this, I don't believe they don't know the facts you pulled off Strava about turbo trainers. big company's pay big money for staff to know this and if they don't know this, there not smart enough to be buying expensive and supposedly technically advanced bikes from.
If I had or worked for a bike company like canyon or giant I would be to the point of obsession on knowing these issues and aggressively exploiting them issues against other company's for my company's financial gains. we all know its a jungle out there and life owes you nothing, when your stupid in the jungle you die.
I feel that the Australian Consumer Law would cover this under reasonable use of the product.
There is also an Aeroad on a KICKR in there *official headquarter / showroom* Koblenz (Germany) - pretty weird. I've got some pictures of it, just in case you want to boost your rage level even more :)
Yes please! This video might have a round two coming up.... Sagan was on his S-Works warming up for Het Nieuwsblad on the weekend. Shoot the pic over to shane@ shanemiller . net
wouldn't it be interesting to tweet this question on eurosports coverage of one of the big races.
You mean the big races pros refuse to ride disc brakes due to safety.... yet drop warm up watt bombs on trainers? Makes you wonder.....
I have used indoor trainers for 10 years. Most of my training between Mon to Fri is on the indoor. I ave 25,000km a year. Half of that is at least on the indoor.. Never, ever broke a bike on the indoor.
Ps used them before that but not in a full structured manner
Didn't Abdullah snap the chain stay of his TCR during a sprint effort on a trainer in Maven's pain cave?
I recall something happening there... I don't know the specifics. How it was clamped in, was it already cracked, etc. All questions warranty departments should be looking into and feeding back to the R&D teams. And Abdullah is a beast! :)
Shane Miller might be worth checking with him. I think it turned out to be a difficult warranty case. Definitely not like "No worries we'll send you a new one". Pretty sure it never got replaced or fixed.
So I'll take a guess it never reached a point where they reviewed their frame to determine if it was a manufacturing issue or 'misuse'. Now that'd be an easy out, and one these 'no ergo' policies allow.
Shane Miller Yeah not sure, check with him. He definitely tried. If anything it looks bad on the company and they have a lost a customer forever, who probably won't recommend the brand to anyone else either. You just gotta replace it or help out in some way.
I live in the country, we had a wild cat come into our house at 2am one night, it went bonkers, ended up throwing down my brand new 5k iMac and the screen shattered. I told Apple what had happened and they replaced it for free!
What is your opinion of aluminum bikes on indoor trainers? Would they fatigue quickly?
It depends..... that one is best left for the experts such as Raoul over at ruclips.net/channel/UCY9JUMYI54lLOHpb_zbIedQ
wow specialized! and canyon! please back up your trainer usage with your bicycles. I'm a specialized guy too, and is like to know that my bike is covered with the use on my cycle ops trainer
So Specialized not recommending their carbon frames so by omission are they recommending we use their alloy frames !?
Their wording in the Road.cc article appears to cover all their bikes.... I'd have to review the policy for each bike/frame to be sure. It'd be extremely surprising if this applies to their mountain bikes too.... those things are built for punishment!
been riding my specialized carbon tarmac indoors for the first time this winter... would be absolutely pissed if something were to happen to it and it not be covered. and thanks to specialized i wouldnt even have the option to just buy a middle of the road frameset. im stuck buying a whole bike to replace it.
You'd have to take your own best interests into account and lie about not using an ergo. Which I'm no recommending... but... if a company can't support their own customers, what are the options?
Shane Miller Absolutely. They leave you no choice. I cannot afford a $4000 s works frameset to replace my tarmac comp. i would be forced to jump to another brand which to me seems foolish of them to loose brand loyalty over warrenty issues that dont even seem to be an issue.
Brandon Wagner how did it go? Any damage?
i recently got a sworks tarmac but I'm a bit worried that if anything does go wrong I'm rooted. for that reason i just built my old propel up as a trainer bike. A bit of a compromise but does the job setup reasonably close... After hearing about specialized i kinda wish i bought something else but i do love my tarmac so much just wont use it on the kickr just incase 😶
+Rob Bennett Let them know. It's a simple policy change that's required. There's no data showing your bike will break on a trainer. They've got the resources to fix this.
I think I'm actually lucky to have a dealer who would probably fight tooth and nail for me if something did go wrong. But yeh I have been using bikes on Trainers since original Computrainer with NES hookup and never even thought about problems like whats being discussed. But for some reason I just worry about the S-Works :S I have sent an email to Spesh about it for clarification when/if I get a response Ill post it :D
Keep us posted! Thanks mate.