A conversation about why contrast ratio is reduced on a calibrated display.

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  • Опубликовано: 19 ноя 2024
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Комментарии • 48

  • @Classicdslr
    @Classicdslr 3 года назад +2

    Amazing channel with loads of information that is missing from guides/white papers/user manuals etc from all manufacturers of displays. I wish I found it earlier.
    As an amateur photographer I was involved in editing hundreds of images going after super saturated colors and high contrast. With time this led to severe light sensitivity and the need to look for a minitor with lower contrast ratio , stronger anti-glare properties and lower minimal brightness (around 20cd/m2). The most difficult part is the contrast ratio. There are no IPS monitors with default contrast ratio lower than the standard 1000:1. There are still TN monitors with max brightness of 200cd/m2 and 700:1 but they bring other issues.
    I work on black theme with low lumisity white font in OS and all office software and would like to have reading experience similar to reading a book so my eyes will stay calm for many hours of work. So is it still better to use a standard office model or one for artists which has function like Uniformity equalizer (a.k.a DUE) which lowers the contrast below the default one?
    On standard office models thay say one cannot change the contrast ratio which is stable accross the whole brighness range while here you say that on calibrated monitor you can set any contrats ratio for any brightness level...So is it better for someone sensitive to LED light looking for low contrast to find it trough a purchase of a monitor of the higher class for photographers/video editors?
    I work under dim light conditions and my brightness levels change in the range between 20cd/m2 -60 cd/m2 depending on the internal and ambient light in the work space.
    I also wonder once you calibrate you monitor for the desired brightness level does it mean you cannot any longer use other brightness levels unless you recalibrate it again?
    Could you make a video on this topic if you find monitors for photographers better for office needs than the office models when one is sensitive to high brightness and contrast ratios?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  3 года назад

      Thank you!
      So about the contrast ratio, natively IPS sits at around 1000:1 yes that is true, however, with calibration either software or hardware calibration depending on the program you can alter the contrast ratio or if the program does not allow this you can certainly alter the gamma to bring down the contrast ratio of the display. By definition once you calibrate any display, it would be difficult for the display profile to maintain the 1000:1 ratio and that because in calibration most of the time we would bring the brightness down.
      As for display calibration and brightness, if you are doing color critical work you should keep the display brightness at the minimum of 80 nits. Any lower compresses the display tonal range output so much and that you quickly reach a point of diminishing return.
      To answer your question about brightness level, this depends on a variety of things but assuming that everything is the same any the only variable is the brightness, you do have some margin for brightness changes, I say anything in about a 20 to 30 nits range you should be ok. But most of the time this is what I advise, pick a nit that work best for color critical work and every time you do photo editing just use that nits. For the general computing or content consumption just change the brightness around and don't worry so much about the best calibration or not.
      As are as your question about office monitors, I think that if you purpose is to lower the contrast, I would just do a calibration and you can do it with an fairly economical device such as the X-Rite i1Display Studio. Hope this helps.

    • @Classicdslr
      @Classicdslr 3 года назад

      @@ArtIsRight Thank you for you answer. It seems like an 8 bit screen for photo editing will be ideal for office needs as well regardless of default contrast ratio before calibration. One will have better coating, better colors and the only difficult to find spec is low minimum brightness (for me around 20cd/m2) at such a monitor. The search continues.

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  3 года назад

      These SW are 8 bit + FRC which gets you a visual equivalent of a 10 bit color output. And yes they would be good for office work. Most displays now a day that are half decent are 8 bit + FRC. Again 20 nits is what I would consider an unusable range. What calibrator are you using for measurements to get 20 nits?

    • @Classicdslr
      @Classicdslr 3 года назад +1

      @@ArtIsRight I am not currently using an LCD display since I developped extreme photophobia from a previous laptop display. As weird as it may sound my eyes found significant improvement on an office CRT monitor from 2003 where the maximum brightness is just 100cd/m2 and when turned all the way down to zero the whole screen is black. Each click on the brightness button leads to slight visible step towards increasing/decreasing the brightness so I assumed (hopefuly right) that the whole brighntess range is 0-100cd/m2 . I also noticed when my eyes were recovering that I initially spend more time between 20-30 cd/m2 and after several moths till 45cd/m2 and nowadays even 55 cd/m2. early mornings and night is where I use 20-30cd/m2 brightness for the white font on black background. My case is extreme so recovery needed and still needs unusually low brightness levels. There are specialized forums (mostly in Russian) when many people with this light sensitivity use even as low as 7cd/m2 (Eizo users) for the white fonts. I for e.g. use my cellphone at minimum brightness level during mornings and nights and according to online tests I use brightness of only 6 cd/m2 under low night lamp lighting (for white fonts on black background). I either have to find a model that goes extremelly low in brighntess without PMW and hopefuly 8 bit without FRC or 8 bit +FRC. I am not happy I cannot edit photos for long time but my eyes are more important and hope soon to be able to handle color edits again.

    • @buddyWalrus
      @buddyWalrus 2 года назад

      @@Classicdslr that’s a crazy sounding ailment. Props for finding a way to keep on editing. 👍

  • @ladakhtravellounge8197
    @ladakhtravellounge8197 Год назад +2

    your channel is informative thanks for the amazing information actually I was confuse about contrast ratio with calibrated monitor.

  • @GreyGoshawk
    @GreyGoshawk 4 года назад +2

    Hi Art!
    Just discovered your RUclips channel and it's great!
    I was wondering.
    My use case is that I want my monitor calibrated to sRGB.
    I have two of them so I want them to match.
    However I don't take photos to print, but to post online.
    Also in my room I've got a lot of sunlight so I want to be able to use it on a bright day.
    I find that calibrating to 220 cd/m2 looks great for all round usage for me.
    What I don't understand is if I did want to print something, would the colours look off or is it just the apparent brightness of the image on paper?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  4 года назад +2

      Glad you found the channel.
      You can calibrate your monitors to sRGB, as far as matching that depends. If you have 2 of the same make and model then the possibility of visually matching is better than different model or worse yet 2 different manufacturer.
      If you find that calibrating for 220 works for you, you can keep that. Remember that when you calibrate your display brighter for every know color and coordinate that flash on the screen it would look different than the reference value and would get adjusted. Will this make your color terribly off, no, but it will shift slightly, visually you might not see it, to which you should be ok. The recommend range is not so much just to print on paper but more of a base line for any display calibration.

    • @GreyGoshawk
      @GreyGoshawk 4 года назад

      @@ArtIsRight awesome thanks for the info!
      Btw a topic which I've had a lot of confusion on has been 10 bit colour.
      Like straight away I know that there are panels that support it.
      The idea of 0 to 1023 for RGB values sounds great in terms of like reducing banding.
      I notice it's possible to set display output to 10bpc on the Nvidia control panel.
      But this seems different to enabling HDR at least in windows.
      Photoshop has a setting for 30Bit display?
      And with DCI-P3. Is that a gamut only for HDR?
      You really know your stuff, so think it'd be awesome to have some videos from a pro explaining these confusing details.
      For example:
      My camera shoots in 12 bit raw.
      So could I work in 10bit colour and attach a DCI-P3 profile to the image and share it?
      Like I can see the difference between an sRGB image and one with DCI-P3 in non HDR mode.
      But what's going on there? Haha.
      Like is the 0 to 255 just been stretched out in a different way and I'm not getting more colour detail without HDR?
      Anyway just a suggestion :) Keep up the good work!

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  4 года назад +1

      HDR is separate from bit depth. Higher bit depth does help HDR but it is not necessary. What HDR primary does is scale down the tones so that it can fit with in the range of what the display brightness can produced. As far as color gamut for HDR, it technically is REC 2020 which most display can't even do 80% of because it is really large color space. This is why there are various HDR standards. If you do photography forget about HDR on the display or the OS there's really no benefit in worrying about it. It does not for stills. If you are doing video then yes. It seems you are referring to still images based on what you wrote. So the 12 bit that your camera capture in RAW is the tonal range that it captures. When you are done editing the images if you export the images to JPEG then it will be 8 bit only there's no other options or standard, so edit in the highest bit depth possible and export it out to standard which is 8. As far as sRGB vs DCI-P3 yes you will see a difference the latter is a larger color space.But the question is will most other screens see or worse yet be able to render these difference color space. So far for web use the world is still stuck at sRGB and there's really no move to DCI-P3 yet. You want to make your work accessible to as many displays as possible and if that is the case stick with sRGB. Otherwise people with older computer or os would have issues rendering it as well. 0-255 is still all the same for your image is that just that with different color gamut that number gets mapped differently based on the gamut tagged in the file. And you are not getting more detail in HDR because the HDR that you are referring to for content consumption such as video or games created with HDR in mind.

  • @rushikeshhande4185
    @rushikeshhande4185 Год назад

    Hi can you please answer my question,
    I am planning to buy acer ultrawide monitor with 34 inches and the resolution is qhd
    Color gamut is NTSC 72%
    And the contrast ratio is 700:1 native. Can you please check whether it's a good number or not?
    My usecase is very minimal like I just edit some RUclips videos not more than that but my main concern is about viewing angle and contrast ratio of it.
    Please help me out

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  Год назад

      that number is not so good, probably entry model. Unless you are getting a stealer price, I would steer clear.

  • @Superman-pn1rx
    @Superman-pn1rx 3 года назад +2

    excellent video. thanks

  • @reedcarpenter2994
    @reedcarpenter2994 3 года назад

    Does contact ratio matter on smaller TV's. Like 22"? I can choose a 22" with 4000 to 1 or 24" 800 to 1. Would I be able to tell a difference? Both are native and I'm using it for TV watching.

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  3 года назад

      It has to do with how black, your black is compared to the white. You can probably visually see the difference, it issue is that if the panel is lower quality you may end up with crush blacks.

  • @ksc6000
    @ksc6000 2 года назад

    Maybe you can help with this:
    I have a Dell display that was recommended as a good photo editing monitor for sRGB content, and it has a stated contrast ratio of 1000:1 I believe. I used a Spyder device to calibrate it. I’m sure if I calibrate it to 80 nits, it’ll be much lower as you said. But that’s not my question.
    What I’m struggling with is black levels. I edited some photos on it of a model standing in front of a dark background (it was a white wall but I didn’t light it, and I put a round black reflector behind her). The reflector wasn’t large enough to completely cover the wall behind her, but it was dark enough and looked fine to me on the monitor, as in it looked completely black behind her.
    However, when I got a macbook (I believe its stated contrast ratio is around 1300:1), and I looked at the photos on that - the wall was very obviously showing behind the black reflector where it wasn’t covering it. So I re-edited the photo to crush the black levels and had to do some painting in photoshop even.
    How are people editing on monitors that have 1000:1 contrast ratios? When I look up “best photo editing monitors”, they’re all around that contrast ratio. I feel I wouldn’t have caught this unless I saw it on my macbook which has much better black levels. It makes me feel like the only device I can edit photos and know that the dark areas look correct is something like an XDR display or the new macbooks with mini-LED.
    Can you please help me understand what I’m missing here?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  2 года назад +1

      There's really a lot to unpack. Let's start out with the premise that Mini LED / OLED are the best to view photo works.
      1. You have to ask what is the purpose of the edit. Is this to print or digital viewing only. The answer to this can drastically change the approach that one would take. This is the reason why even if one does not print, it is always a good idea to edit images to a set standard, i.e. printing. And one may say that one don’t print now, however, if that need should ever arise in the future then it also save on time (needing less time for reedits).
      2. These true black backlight are relatively new. So to say that they are the best for this type of creative work is an assumption that can be made, however, it is a one-sided look at how these back light may have solved your issue. But then you have to asked, how were photographers editing digital images before these display tech came about and were they able to get great edits?
      3. Back light tech aside there are other factors to consider such as the amount of color gamut coverage and other factors. Again is there a need for print and what is the editing purpose, end goal?
      4. Contrast ratio is predominantly a spec and it is, in a way almost, irrelevant when you it comes to image evaluation. This loop back into the first point again, what is the purpose. Because if one print, then what we have 1000:1 or more is way too high for the DMax of most paper. With the exception of super glossy. But then if the premise is to do work for web then how does one accommodate for all of the type of displays and backlight that are out in the world? The answer is that is you can’t and it is a can of worm that you don’t want to open up.
      5. Evaluating image on a XDR display, what is the brightness that you have set? Because that will change the way how the image look as well. This is why editing to print standard help because it sets many of the key parameter for image evolution, brightness of the display being the key.
      6. Are you in a fully calibrated environment to start out with, meaning is the Dell Calibrated and to what brightness and same thing with the laptop. You can start to see an idea forming that contrast ratio is just a small part of a larger equation. And even though the question is not about the calibration nit, you can start to see that perhaps it should be because they are all related.
      7. The best way to edit these type of extreme range work sometimes is histogram and point equation, this is where you put a color picker in the area of the image that you want dark and you evaluate the number for RGB. If you want dark it should be between 0 and 5 black without details. If you do it visually by display you can but you are shooting darts at a constant moving target and that is never a great way to edit. Again this circle back to calibration.
      8. These newer backlight have their plus and minuses for image evolution. At the end of the day, if you feel that it is the best medium for you to evaluate in, this is a choice that you make. However, if you look at this holistically, you will quickly find that even displays with 1000:1 ratio will work just fine.
      9. Hope this helps.

    • @NYRanimaciones
      @NYRanimaciones 2 месяца назад

      @@ArtIsRight awesome response

  • @bradylangford5696
    @bradylangford5696 4 года назад

    I have an SW 2700. After watching several of your videos, I calibrated with both the i1 Display Pro and the Spyder Xpro. I used Palette Master for most attempts, but I also tried the X Rite and Datacolor software. I have made at least 10 calibrations with different combinations of input. The results have been consistently poor. The best result had an average delta of just under 3 with a max of about 9. I. Talked to BenQ tech support last week. They offered a few suggestions which I tried without success. I have tried to reach them several times this week with no success both via phone and email. Any suggestions?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  4 года назад

      @BJL
      Answers these questions for me and we’ll go from here.
      1. What computer (Laptop - Mac specify the model, year and size, Desktop, iMac, all in 1 PC, custom build, etc ) and OS version (For Mac please specify the dot release) are you using?
      2. What calibrator are using?
      3. What version of PME are you using?
      4. What BenQ model do you have?
      5. What cable are you using to connect your BenQ to your computer for the display signal, HDMI, Display Port, etc.
      6. If you are using USB-C skip this question, if not, are you using a USB link cable between your laptop and display?
      7. If you are using Mac was this a clean install or was the OS upgraded from a previous version at any point (I.e. From Mojave 10.13.x to Catalina 10.14.x)? Or was this Mac restore from a back up, time machine or other wise?
      8. For PC, what GPU are you using? If Nvidia are you using their new Studio Driver?

  • @Time_Traveling_Lesbian
    @Time_Traveling_Lesbian 3 года назад

    Does this apply to oled displays. Even if you calibrate them the contrast would still be infinite ♾ right?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  3 года назад

      IPS LED Backlight Specific Conversation.

  • @oprd13
    @oprd13 3 года назад

    Top videos.

  • @ShadowFlame7
    @ShadowFlame7 3 года назад

    thanks for the info

  • @gdoria74
    @gdoria74 3 года назад

    Hi! After all calibration process, my monitor still got a contrast ratio close to 800:1 do I have to manually dim the contrast when editing photos for printing?
    Or do I have to dim it manually and recalibrate to get to a specific target?
    Or that does not matter? (meaning that a photo might look washed on the print while looking perfect on the calibrated monitor?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  3 года назад

      what display are you using? Software, calibration devices etc?

    • @gdoria74
      @gdoria74 3 года назад

      @@ArtIsRight My external Monitor is a LG W1942P and I also use a vaio laptop with a LG LP156WF4_SPU1 display, I am using the i1 Display PRO Plus with the i1 Profiler software.

    • @gdoria74
      @gdoria74 3 года назад

      I also followed your windows tutorial and external monitor tutorial. Used 80cd config.

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  3 года назад

      Contrast on the display is somewhat related to brightness but not entirely. if you want to control the contrast on your display you can use i1Profiler and set the contrast ratio that you want. This way you would have a profile that match closer to print. A video on that should be coming out soon.

    • @gdoria74
      @gdoria74 3 года назад

      Great! Then I can step the contrast manually and recalibrate until the desired ratio?

  • @garbygarb31
    @garbygarb31 4 года назад

    Sounds a lot like contrast ratio and the dynamic range of a display is very similar ?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  4 года назад

      You have the right idea, they are somewhat related in casualty, where one setting can alter the visual appearance of another. Overall, individually they still described a different function of the display.

    • @mbahmarijan789
      @mbahmarijan789 2 года назад

      HDR technology is playing at dimming zones area. Whereas the contrass ratio is often dependent on the panel type and quality (i.e oled, va, ips, tn)

  • @theedstv
    @theedstv 9 месяцев назад

    so generally, for the average person, IPS>VA right?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  9 месяцев назад

      yes

    • @theedstv
      @theedstv 9 месяцев назад

      @@ArtIsRight i've read forum threads recently that some people claim less eye fatigue using VA vs IPS and swear by it. any known explanation to this?

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  9 месяцев назад +1

      from person to person. VA has worse angle of view and color response. For Pro color work, it is a no go

    • @theedstv
      @theedstv 9 месяцев назад

      thanks alot @@ArtIsRight

    • @ArtIsRight
      @ArtIsRight  9 месяцев назад

      😀