Total Tactics - Gunpowder Formations: The Tercio | Total War: Warhammer 3
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- #howto #totalwarwarhammer3 #immortalempires
Follow Up Video - Total Tactics - Gunpowder Formations: Improving The Tercio • Total Tactics - Gunpow...
This tutorial will teach you about applying real life Pike & Shot tactics with the Spanish Tercio in Total War: Warhammer 3 Immortal Empires. This was made after the 2.2 Update during the Immortal Empires Beta. If you have any questions, or any tips, post them in the comments!
Total War: Warhammer 3 was developed by Creative Assembly and published by Sega. It is part of Games Workshop's Warhammer universe. The music in this video is credited to Creative Assembly and their composers.
Please note this is an unofficial video and is not endorsed by SEGA or the Creative Assembly in any way. For more information on Total War, please visit www.totalwar.com.
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Time Stamps
Intro - 00:00
The Problem with Gunpowder Units - 00:42
The Tercio Formation - 01:22
Applying History - 03:17
Strengths - 04:42
Weaknesses - 05:24
Outro - 06:36
Thank you all so much for watching! 
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Hey guys thanks so much for the amazing response to this! I really appreciate all the feedback and kind words from you. I'll try and respond to as many comments as I can! Cheers y'all!
Cool video and an awesome explanation! I was thinking, what if you move one of the rear halberd units forward, right behind your front line. That way it can reinforce damaged parts of your lines. The downside is that you'll only have on unit guarding the rear, however in practice I find that the AI never really takes the effort to go all the way around my lines to hit me from behind.
Or you could even use the last halberd unit to reinforce your other lines in case the enemy doesn't flank you at all, leaving you with a u-shaped formation instead of a square
And in the Early game you can use the same tactic by using Crossbows first then transitioning over to Handgunners, the same thing with the Infantry start with Spearmen and Swordsmen then transition to Halberdiers.
Bruh, did you made this video based on our talk on your last gunpowder unit video?
@@carlosschwambach9213 it definitely helped to inspire me to look into it more my dude! There were a couple of other comments as well about these kinds of historical formations so I figured it’d be cool to look further into. Thanks again bro!
Warhammer Fantasy, a world where Pike & Shot is practiced alongside tanks, helicopters, machine guns and nuclear missiles.
Lmfao don't forget about the Dragons, Dinosaurs and Daemons!
@@MalleusGaming57 only in Warhammer Fantasy can you have an elven arch-mage flying into battle on a dragon, alongside a squadron of dwarven gyrocopters, and a lance of knights riding pegasi and gryphons, against an evil wizard on a two-headed mutant dragon, a cloud of giant vampire bats, and a bunch of goblin doomdivers frantically flapping their wood-and-cloth wings.
Oh, and down below the aztec gator-men are duking it out with the steampunk plague rats on behalf of their giant toad overlords, while pike-and-shotte formations frantically duke it out with heavy metal vikings and four-colour demon hordes, and the Ents aggressive cousins take on the green-painted supporters of... WAAAGH? Not a club I recognise, but they clearly have loyal fans!
gets even weirder in Age of Sigmar
catridge ammo is common but you can see crossbows still common
revolvers arent as common despite being ordinary weapons
End Times/AdditionofSpacemarines is nuHammer, not Warhammer. Storm of Chaos is the true timeline. They threw Rick Priestly out of his own setting after 6th; brought in new writers to retcon the fuck out of the lore, hand the world to Chaos on a platter, and obliterate it to focus on 40K.
Don't know why people have to start yapping about it all the time. No Warhammer Fantasy fan cares.
I was about to say "can't wait for some band kid to bring up AdditionofSpacemarines", but I'm already late
Your combination of a history lesson and tactics I can use in one of my favorite games, 2 things I love, is amazing. Keep up the good work man.
Thanks so much bro! I'm really glad you enjoyed this I can't wait to make more!
Early Tercio had few light sword infantery with breastplate with shield to support pikemen if their lines break. Those are call "rodeleros" (Sword and buckler Men). Sometimes they hire german mercenaries (Sack of Rome (1527)) so maybe some zweihander (as Landsknechte) doing this task make work too.
Rodeleros would have been cool to throw in, I just didn't feel like Empire Swordsmen (the best stand in) wouldn't add much to this. Greatswords on the other hand as Landsknechte would be really great to support the Halberdiers in the front! I'll probably swap out the Knights for them. Cheers bro!
Early the rodeleros and the swordmans with two handed were crucial to support the pikes in the clash, they were paid double to be there and the 2 handers used their swords to break and get away the enemy pikes.
@@albertobl1948 there was a "class" of mercenary in Germany referred to as "doppelsoldner" (double soldier) who were precisely what you said, men with 2 handers breaking up the enemy pike formation
@@ironCondor623 That is true they were used by the german Lanquesenettes, i can't tell who did it first but Spaniards used that tactic as well, if you think about it being in the first rows of the clash has the biggest risks so as well i has the biggest rewards, by the way the Spaniards that used to be front liners were called double pay soldiers or in Spanish soldados de doble paga.
@@albertobl1948
In the spanish tercio the "Doppelsoldner" were called doblepaga, double pay, who used a 2-handed sword called "Montante" that was about the height of the person wielding it.
I hope they will concept estalia like this in wh3, more focused on cool formations and not just make them a copy of other human factions. In their core, cathay empire bretonia and kislev feel all very similar to me.
That'd be so cool I really can't wait for a Dogs of War/Southern Realms DLC. Like, even just having some proper Pikemen alone would make me really happy haha
Yet only kislev can have a stack of patriarch riding polar bear
That'd be sick. Maybe a chance to add formation presets or some sort of tech that boosts certain stats based on the formation.
i mean all we need is the pikes to be a dedicated poll arm unit etc for all human factions to use.
I always Miss Stuff Like this in warhammer 3. Compared to Rome 1, Napoleon and others its just nothing when it comed to formations.
As a spaniard i feel prod you did the research and practical applications in this game i love so much.
Side note: There is a great mod called Souther Realms that makes this PlayStatile much better. Estalia has acces to élite albadiers (downgruded Black guard of Nagafoth) that can make the frontline (In the Real tercio front lane Was made of experinced fighters and backlane by fresh recruits so it makes complete historical sense)
There are some cool élite hangunners and other units to add
To finish off i would include mortars instead of canons because the formation is calling for it
I'm not a Spaniard but I am of Latin descent so I got that Spanish pride with you hermano! I'll have to look for that mod, I found a Southern Realms mod but it didn't have much to it, Estalia just had some Pikemen, yours sounds really good! And good call on the Mortars, I figured the Cannons would add some range but once the lines meet its pretty much useless. Gracias mi amigo!
@@MalleusGaming57 Hipanic culture is boss. Have a good day sir. You have earned yourself a new sub
@@javibertolo1968 It really is! Cheers my friend and thank you so much! I really appreciate it
Nouce , that historical time period was super aesthetic , cool to see Warhammer adopt some things from it
Absolutely, I'm really interested to see what more can be adapted and used. Cheers bud!
in real life of course the spanish would have used several tercio formations in a single battle. But this is hard to apply i feel in warhammer total war as there is a limit to how many units you can bring. I do however wonder how well this concept would work with several smaller squares. Might get to intensive on the micro but still could be cool
Yeah I could see doing that with a double stack but I always have trouble controlling so many units. I’m definitely gonna look into trying this out with 2 smaller squares, I’d imagine they’d be more fragile but you’ll be able to get more firepower on your opponent. It’ll be cool to test out.
@@MalleusGaming57 Might be worth using in co-op, if you hand off control of part of your army to another player.
same with field artillery etc though it took till the war of the spanish sucession and latter before that infrastructure to supply and maintain such cannons would become common place.
Indeed, IRL a Tercio formation would probably count as a single "unit" where in Total War that's not possible due to the size and the mixed weaponry used.
@@CollinBuckman It'd be great if Total War could implement combined units like Battle for Middle-Earth 1 had.
I love pike and shot history. This level of experimentation is super fun.
Also this looks like the noob square but professionally done.
Haha a square for a more refined and civilized Noob! I'm having a lot of fun with trying to adapt historical tactics into Warhammer 3, I can't wait to do more! Cheers bud!
I suggest watching "Alatriste (2006)" tells the story of a spanish soldier fighting on "El último tercio" against the french in the battle of rocroi.
This is actually a variant of the deep checkerboard formation : the basic checkerboard has your units spaced on two lines. The deep one has your units spaced on 3 or 4 lines, and you have melee units on the sides and middle of the formation so they porotect the side and can reinforce where needed. Being spaced means your units can fire everywhere, and being deep enough means the enemy can't easily run you down.
Awesome! I didn't know it had a specific term for it thanks bud! I've used a deep checkerboard with Sisters of Avelorn and Ice Guard, I'll have to try one out with gun powder units, sounds like it'd be pretty fun!
The deep one sounds a bit like the Roman Triple Acis. Though that one was only Heavy Infantry, with Cavalry on the Flanks and Skirmishers in front
@@dragon12234 it’s funny you say that, the triple acies is something I wanna look into sometime with this series! No idea how it’d work out but it’ll be fun to find out regardless
Very good idea indeed, would be cool if something like this would be introduced in a future DLC with Estalia and Tilea, Pikeman, Tercio formations etc...
That'd be amazing! They could get buffs for being in formation or something, I really hope we get a Southern Realms DLC
I’ve recently got into Total Warhammer and it then led me to historical formations and battles , for example with Alexander the Great, I like what you do combining them. May you continue to make videos like this! Love them!
That's awesome to hear! Thanks so much I'm glad you enjoyed this, I can't wait to get into more historical tactics, I was just thinking about Alexander the Great's tactics as well, I feel like they'd be really suitable with the Elves. Cheers bro!
This was very nice. You should go deeper with historical formations. French line infantry formation from the 1800's, Polish Hussar cavalcade... Take a look at pre-Tercio Spanish formations (Coronelías) or the Burgundian ordennances.
That all sounds amazing! Thank you those are some great ideas to look into! Oooo the potential is killing me haha
Amazing content, I would love to see more vids likes these so I can apply the formations in the game
Thanks so much! I'm really glad you enjoyed it! I've definitely got more ideas to come!
Keep making these and I'll stay subbed. Thanks for the great content!
I'll definitely be making more, they take a bit more time but they are a lot of fun. Cheers bud I appreciate it!
As always, great video, Malleus. Not something I would have thought of, but I'm going to give it a shot in-game. Thanks!
JJ! Thank you so much bro! Let me know how it goes, I’ve got some ideas and have had a lot of suggestions for improvements on it so can’t wait to try those out
Loving the mods you are using. As someone who really appreciates immersion in the games its really a pleasure
Thanks bud! I love those subtle mods that add little details like the reloading one or more realistic textures. I love the immersion they bring as well
This is a brilliant concept for a channel, applying history to strategy games. Subbed
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that bro! There's so much to learn from history and I find it really fun trying to apply it to the game. Especially a Fantasy one with all the extra craziness
Really enjoyed this video. Thank you!
Appreciate it bro thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
Just saying. Tercio does not mean a particular formation, at the time it was a synonym for Army. And so it was called as such, because the King of Spain referred to them for the first time, in that way, when arranging 3 armies to which to divide the pay. An amount for each Tercio (Each third of the whole theatre of war). 2:40 That's Castillo formation (Castle formation) It's not the only one not even the most used. It is good for unit cohesion as an entity but not as a group. Was generally used when surrounded or at the very, very begining of the battle.
Right on! That's good to know! Thanks bud!
This is great, i hope you decide to make more videos like this!
Thanks bud! Glad you liked it and I definitely have more like this to come!
Very good video mate! History + one of my favorite games! More content like this!
Thanks so much bud! I can't wait to do more! Cheers!
Yeeeeees, I’ve been waiting for more in this series🙏
Haha cheers bro don’t worry there’ll be more to come as well 😁
Fantastic.....well done sir...Bravo!
Thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed it bud!
Micro intensive. I feel the pain, I use some sort of danish pike & shot formation since checkerboard and chevron weren't really satisfying and flexible enough solutions for me. If you're interested I can send you something about it, have never bothered with posting it anywhere so far.
Haha heavy micro makes me dread the idea of an All Cavalry Army, as much I also love the idea of it. That'd be awesome to see dude! I've had a few people ask me about doing something with Danish Pike & Shot formations that'd be cool to see
Interesting information. Thank you so much! 🙂
Thanks for watching bro glad you enjoyed it!
I really like this mixture of tactics, history, and their application in tw. I would def check em out if you did more.
Glad you liked it bud! I'll definitely be coming out with more, gonna take another look at the Tercio for the next one!
Man this is insanly good content for me. I hate playing as the empire on the battlefield : ok at everything but weak vs ai cheat which tips the fargile balance of the empire.
But roleplaying as the empire on the campaign map is so freaking cool.
Such vids on actual brilliant tactics of history, usefull for my addiction is amazing
That’s awesome I’m so glad you enjoyed this bud! I hope it’ll help you out, stay tuned for more!
I think it is awesome how you were able to use a real life tactic and make it work in total war. I'll definitely have to try it out myself. Seems to work well. One thing I might (which does defeat the purpose of it, unless I can being in more units) is have a 2nd line of reserves at the front of the formation. Since the front will be taking mose of the beating it probably be best to reinforce it to keep it from failing.
Thanks so much! I find it a really interesting and fun challenge to adapt real life tactics and see how they can work in game, I can’t wait to try out more. And yeah that’s a good idea, I was thinking of either replacing the Knights or 2 units from the back for some Greatswords to help reinforce the front, they’d definitely help
Awesome video! Good to see you using real life scenarios!
A suggestion though: Maybe make a simple set up of the formations on some software (even paint will do!) to see exactly how it would play out.
Also, some more eagle eyed views of the battle would also be great!
Thanks so much bud! And yeah I definitely will do some more overhead shots next time, I wasn't 100% sure what I wanted to film but I've got a better grasp on it now. I think lol Cheers, thanks for the advice bro!
Oh this is super cool... I bet with some modification you could make this devastating for any range-heavy faction. Currently playing a Wood Elf campaign so I might just try this with some Eternal Guard + Glade Guard with maybe a few edge-prowling Waystalkers.
Lmao Squirrel, bro, I don’t even wanna think about how disgusting Wood Elves would be! 😂😂 Even a low tier army would be really cost effective like this I’d imagine. Plus they’ll be able to shoot over the Eternal Guard
Thats pretty cool man, thanks.
No, no, thank you for watching bud! Glad you enjoyed it!
Bro keep up the content you have talent
Thanks so much bro! I really appreciate that and I've definitely got more to come! Cheers bud!
I would recommend using two of your halberdiers as a reserve and shrinking the square accordingly. You gotta have something to shore up your front line with when they hit it. Also having a wizard would be extremely helpful, fight fire with fire.
Yeah I'm thinking of actually replacing 1 Halberd and Gunner from the back with Greatswords to support the front. That should help reinforce it, and stay thematically in line with the Tercio. I feel like Gelt would be a great commander for this since yeah he's a Wizard so he'll be able to buff your units and bombard enemy blobs
Brilliant idea! Can’t wait to try it out in my next empire campaign.
Thanks so much! I really wanna try it out in a campaign as well. I feel like it’d be most useful against Melee Horde armies like Greenskins, Chaos and Vampires. Let me know how it goes!
@@MalleusGaming57 hundred percent! It feels like it would be great against the green tide or the horde of undead!
@@Apophis150 bro I can picture some absolutely epic looking battles against them! 😁
Nice video! Gracias!
Gracias amigo! De nada! Glad you enjoyed it bud
It is intriguing that you cover this formation. I was experimenting on it myself and it isn't easy to pull off with what you listed near the end. My armies usually follow a composition that of a checkerboard formation or somewhat like an arrowhead with reserves of fast units or just more infantry.
In context to Warhammer 3 especially Immortal Empires there are alot of Large Unit targets in the game now and certain factions like Daemons or Ogres are not in short supply thus keeping me to utilize Spearman units as specialists either waiting to engage and focuse down the large entities or to reinforce the line when it breaks.
Playing on a competitive Total War Discord also makes me worry about bringing something I couldn't survive without like a Steam tank. In terms of the Empire I'll usually favor midrange spending units with performance to back it up. As long as you have a decent front line, good missile troops, and some empire knights to quickly mobilize is essential.
In terms of this strategy I'd test it out against Khorne, Tzeentch, and Ogre Kingdoms to try and perfect a general concept to facing the horrors of the Old World and beyond. It'll be hard of course but these factions cover the general criteria that would put your army in peril. Ironically you can do this more effectively with Skavan since losses mean almost nothing and anybody that breaks their first time will come back pretty much at a similar strength as they started at least for Skaven.
Yeah it definitely has its Pros and Cons, part of what I like so much with this series I'm doing is figuring out ways to adapt these tactics to all the insanity that Warhammer has haha! I really wish Empire had a heavier infantry unit for the frontlines, Greatswords don't quite cut it. I'll definitely try it out against more of the other races, though I feel like Tzeentch is gonna thrash it, though the Spearmen you mentioned may be slightly better against them thanks to their shields. Thanks so much for the advice my friend!
Probably best to use greatswords as the front of the box for the extra survivability or even a unit of knights held in the box who can quickly shore up a broken side in an emergency.. I just tried this and had a very fun battle against vampire counts. I use many mods including SFO Grimhammer III battle beta and another mod which doubles the size of every unit and increases health of characters and monsters. Battles last a while and this formation was very satisfying to use as it played out. I don't normally enjoy Empire campaigns, but going to give this a go using the Tercio formation. Should be extra fun and chaotic when there are multiple armies involved on either side. Thanks.
That is so awesome! I can’t wait for SFO to be fully released. And yeah some Greatswords in place of the Knights would probably really help out the front of the formation, definitely gonna make use of those. I’m super glad you enjoyed this bro and it’s helping out in your campaign! Cheers!
Been using this tactic since Shogun one when it first came out.
Issues in warhammer as noted spells breath and artillery. For empire I find anti inf units to clear chaff on attackers flanks or center. Once attacking cav or fast units are contained advancing a second line of "pike" and pull back first line. Giving them a charge into a new fresh line.
Crossbow men are great as a second line unit as well.
One tip is play in slow mode. And don't be afraid of pause button. Mainly when you need a few units to move at once. Pause game command units then start game. I would argue the AI can and does use all pieces at once while we have to move our mouse around. Pause evens the playing field.
One battle is over save and watch your work unfold in real time again.
Issue: Pause if on to long will create playback hiccups in saves.
Haha it really is a timeless classic! That's awesome! That's a good call with the second pike line and the crossbowmen since they can shoot over the front line. And definitely sound advice with Pausing! I used to heavily when recording this as I was pretty much testing to see how it'd work. I saved the replay for the cinematic shots because there was no way I'd be able to get them and properly control everything. Thanks bro!
@@MalleusGaming57 Welcome love to see what you come up with for other races.
Cool video!
Thanks bud glad you enjoyed it!
I'm from spain and this is a GREAT video!!
Glad you enjoyed it mi amigo! Glad I can do my Spanish brethren proud!
I dig the history lesson, i dont play warhammer 3 but this was cool to watch still
Awesome thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it bud
Yes, this a video I have been searching for. Thank you and the Algorithm Gods.
Haha ask and ye shall receive! Thanks bud glad you enjoyed it!
Fun to play such historic fomation and it work well
Totally agree my dude! It's fun to have the variety of what you can do, and its so cool to see them in action
This is actually really cool I might have to try this later
Awesome glad you liked it bud! Let me know how it works out for you
@@MalleusGaming57 it worked like a charm against vampire counts, new favorite tactic
I absolutely love that real life tactics can be used in these games
It's so cool being able to make use of them, I find it really adds some nice variety to the battles
awesome video
Thanks so much bro!
A spaniard here, your pronunciation was as spot on as a non native spanish speaker can get, and then some.
Deeper history lesson here: during a long part of the Middle Ages, heavy shock cavalry ruled even over the infantry that in games like Total War was supposed to stop it, therefore the need of proper pikemen, like the scotish schiltrons. Then, how do you deal with these pikemens now? You can use archers, but witharmor getting improved at Big Foot leaps and welsh bowmen being at the end of their tech tree, so to speak, there was a need for another countermeassure. while Germans used greatswords, it was still risky...
So, here we are, year 1492. The Reconquista has finally ended, but new frons are being opened for the war accustomed iberians. And they get all they needed: Philip of Burgundy, husband of the daughter of the Catholic Monarchs, Juana, brought landsknechts to the wedding, introducing the idea of pikes; the castilians knew about blackpowder, as the very first usage of this weapon in Europe was precisely during the conquest of the castle of Niebla (southwestern Andalucía) in late 1200', and a great weapon to use against massed pikemen and to surpass the armor that bow and arrow can no longer get through; a military genious as El Gran Capitán, and a war to test it all, in Italy defending the interest of Aragón against the french. This was the Tercio: proffesional volunteers with true meritocracy to get promotions, disciplined soldiers, experienced and educated officers, and good tactics lead to the astounding victories at Bicocca (0 spanish casualities) and Pavia (french king captured) and eveng surviving for more than a century, giving the sweddish a run for their money at Nordlingen.
Haha thanks mi amigo! I'm of Latin descent so I'm sure that helped with my pronunciation :) that's all fascinating! I read a lot when doing research for this and it was so difficult trying to just keep things short and to the point with the video because all the history behind the Tercio is so cool. It really amazing how effective it was. Taking 0 casualties at Bicocca is absolutely astounding. Cheers hermano!
I wish there was a way to automate complex maneuvers like these. This formation would be most effective with several squares in a staggered line formation, the way the Swiss did it. With one square forward, a second one to its right and slightly behind, and a third as a reserve to maneuver. The artillery would hang back. Of course, the amount of units needed to make this work wouldn't fit a stack. And it would be mental to try and micro it.
Yeah man whenever I'm controlling 2 stacks at once its way too much for me, and thats just with regular battle lines! That'd be so cool though if you could like Parent one formation to another or something so it'd like follow it and keep its shape. I'm really curious as to how this would work out if it were split into 2 smaller Tercios, so 4 Halberds and 4 Gunners on the corners each. I'll have to try that out!
You can lock them in with Ctrl G and that will help you move them around, so that helps the Micro at least.
@@hawkticus_history_corner lmao wow I can’t believe that completely slipped my mind! Yes! Good call my dude! Having them in 2 locked control groups and then you can move them together with Alt dragging. Hm, 2 smaller Tercios is sounding better and better
I usually as Empire use alternating gunners, melee and spears. One group has a unit of spears, a unit of melee (free company, greatswords or swordsmen) and gunners. I also integrate artillery. Smaller artillery like hellblaster volley guns work well as kind of like heavy MG crews while cannons are less flexible.
You have everyone in square formation to be able to move quickly. Spears should be square or rectangle, 6 or more ranks deep.
You start with gunners in front and to the side of each spear unit with melee in the rear. Artillery should be positioned safely and not in the back.
When gunners fall back, fall back through the gaps between spear units. The enemy will not charge through those gaps. If he does, he is vulnerable on three sides. Your spears will engage in a deep formation with flanks providing clear lines of fire for gunners and artillery. If the enemy surrounds them they are vulnerable to gunners.
Melee is used where necessary to plug gaps, intercept units, reinforce or replace spears on the frontline.
When you move a gunner always move as a group, gunners and spears. They can flank while being covered from attack.
Cavalry if historical would be pistoliers and lancers. Pistoliers harass the sides of big enemy formations and chase routing units. Lancers keep the flanks safe alongside dragoons (dismounted gunners) in wider formations and attack or break the enemy where necessaru. Outriders can fulfil the role of dragoons or leaders of pistolier groups very well.
That sounds really epic I love it! I’m gonna have to try it out! I love the idea of Pistoliers but unfortunately I feel the unit is kinda crap haha I do love Outriders though I feel they’re a bit better off than the Pistoliers
@@MalleusGaming57 Pistoliers in real life were heavy cavalry and they were great at attacking pike blocks. They should have better melee stats than Empire Knights but worse charge. Over time they became light cavalry with sabers and pistols but there were also heavy cavalry with heavy straight swords called Cuirassiers who also wore armour and charged straight ahead. But generally pistol carrying cavalry in early pike and shot should be heavy cavalry and should have armour piercing too.
Oh man those kind of Pistoliers sound absolutely epic! The tabletop models upon which these ones are based were purely a short ranged light missile cavalry, though they did get a little bit of an extra punch in close combat with their dual pistols. Gimme a solid armoured Sword and Pistol rider any day!
The weakness being vulnerable to dragons and magic is especially interesting to think about for me, because it really drives the point home that the Tercio was designed so specifically to be good at what it does in an irl setting, it has such an obvious disregard for things that the enemy would not have been able to do in the 1500s (magic and dragons) to seriously threaten its formational integrity on the battlefield.
I’d imagine with some time and effort invested, someone might be able to come up with an improved Tercio formation that is specifically warhammer-esque, with considerations for all the fantastical elements in mind.
That’s an aspect that really interests me with this series as well, adapting real life tactics for a fantasy setting, and seeing what can be done to deal those weaknesses while still staying true to the spirit of those tactics. I find it really fun to think about and experiment with. Cheers bro!
Very cool video i like it.
Thank you very much I'm glad you did! Cheers bud!
I love this kinda stuff, I remember trying to use some of the Roman formations with the Triarii, Principes and Hastati using skirmisher units and different unit ranks mostly for the sake of fun, as it's hard to implement when dragons land on your ass lol, more kinda stuff like this would be great
Haha yeah the Romans definitely had trouble dealing with all those Dragons flying around for sure! Pesky beasts! Seriously though Roman formations is totally something I'd be interested in taking a look at with this series, I can't wait! Cheers bro glad you enjoyed this and thanks so much!
"Vulnerable to magic and dragons" - well hopefully no one used any of those for military needs in 17th century *Kappa*
Lmao hopefully indeed!
I mean it's accurate. Pike squares and infantry square's greatest weakness is artillery since they're in a compact square which means a cannon ball will wreck havoc through their formation. What's preventing them from breaking will be their training and discipline and sheer iron balls to stand up while being shredded by artillery and firearms alike.`
I tend to use similar formations the only things I would note is that is the formation does not have to be symmetrical. If you pull one of the 2 rear halberd units of the rear and either put it on the front or keep it in the center as a reserve it is helpful. It is rare that you get overwhelming forces going all the way around to the rear of the formation to attack even in multiplayer so weakening it slightly is worth a reserve.
That’s some definitely good advice! I was thinking of removing one of the back Halberds and maybe even the back Handgunner unit (not the back corner ones though) and replacing them with Greatswords. I could also replace the Knights with Greatswords and add 2 other units, maybe some Mortars, a Wizard or something
@@MalleusGaming57 Maybe, especially the possibility of removing the back handgunner screen. The cavalry is pretty useful though especially if you weaken the rear wall to reinforce the front that way you can prioritize anything that hits the weak side. Another idea is that traditionally the cavalry should probably be pistoleers rather then heavy knights. Mortars are pretty good in the center or even cannons if you can leave the proper gap in the front to shoot past the line without letting leakers through.
@@FakeSchrodingersCat yeah I’m really liking the idea of using Outriders for the cavalry (I love the idea of Pistoliers but they’re just not good haha) definitely gonna have to play around a bit with the composition, quite a few choices can be made
@@MalleusGaming57 outriders can work. Pistoleers are situational I have had decent success with sitting behind engaged units but they definitely don't have the firepower to break a charge or go head to head with other ranged units.
Nice usage of a German diagramm of the Tercio at 2:41
That diagram really helped me figure out just what exactly would be going in a Tercio, it was super useful! Cheers bud!
I love trying irl tactics in Warhammer. Some things that I learned and tried.
IRL, armies started out with low proportions of guns per pike. Say 2 pikes to 1 gun. Eventually it went to a 50/50 split, and then to 2 guns for 1 pike.
Also, they said that most armies wanted about as much cavalry as infantry. We don't always hear about it, but cav can be used to protect flanks, as reserves to shore up the front line, a hammer, to chase off and destroy fleeing units, to scout and skirmish with the enemy before contact.
In Warhammer, the AI rushes your line, and if they can, they try to flank around. Ranged units shoot as they get in range, and artillery fires where they can. So the key is being able to withstand the frontal assault, as you showed in this video. Protect your flanks, and let your guns fire.
I think the Tercio struggles in Warhammer. IRL, there were no instant commands or perfect knowledge of the battlefield. So it made sense to group all your men around, and you didn't have to worry about flanks. But in Warhammer, the enemy will crash down upon one side, and then you don't have most of your army in the fight. And if or when they break that side, then your are flanked to the max!
Checkerboard and Chevrons are compromises that address these problems. Checkerboard lets you get close to a 50/50 gun and infantry split, whereas chevrons can get you to that 2 guns/1 infantry split. Checkerboard is safer, while Chevron has higher potential damage. And the more damage you deal, the less damage you take. The problem with Chevrons is that it skimps on infantry for guns, which weakens the line.
If we have the chevron with 2 guns for 1 infantry, then at most, we can have 6 infantry and 12 guns, with the Lord and a misc unit, maybe a cannon. This is really powerful, especially if you put one 3 man unit to protect each flank. I like having the guns in front to fire a volley, before quickly pulling them back to safety, in order to blast the enemy who get caught on the infantry. Instead of forcing a rigid chevron, I prefer using the infantry as a road block, with the guns behind and shooting, almost like a mini-Tercio. The guns will move where they are most needed, perhaps even reinforcing another part of the line.
In my testing, the chevrons invest too much into guns, which leaves other parts of the army lacking. It is a powerful offensive formation, but kind of a glass cannon.
Cavalry is key, because of their responsiveness. Enemy cav will try to wheel around, out of reach of danger, and if you've played Dwarves, you know the hopeless feeling. Plus, extra cav can serve as a reserve force behind the front line, charging into whichever part of the line is weakening. And if they are not needed there, then they can ride out to assist the rest of the cav in a multitude of operations.
(Some armies placed guns among their cav, to reinforce. Imagine two units of Empire Knights on a flank, with a unit of handguns in between. When the enemy approaches, the handguns can open fire, weakening the enemy before you cav charge home, steel in hand. I think it would be really good, but it is hard to find the room.)
The real problem is that we only have 20 units to play with, and we need a Lord. So we need to figure out what ratio to use. We need some cav. We need enough infantry to hold back the enemy charge. We need enough guns to kill the enemy army. And we need some artillery to help us with sieges.
Checkerboard is more stable. You can either bookend the line with infantry or guns. For example, in a 9 man line, you can have either 5 inf and 4 guns, or 5 guns and 4 inf. Having the inf on the outside protects the guns from attack, but leaves you short on guns. Having guns on the outside gives you more firepower, but leaves them vulnerable to flanking. However, you can secure that with cav.
My new tech is to go 1 gun, 1 infantry. Place the guns directly in front of their infantry unit. Have the guns max stretched out, and have the infantry in a block. The guns fire some initial volleys, and then pull back behind the infantry. Since they are stretched out, and the infantry is a block, they can still shoot around the infantry with most of their guns, while leaving little to no opening for the enemy to sneak through.
I like bringing 6 cav. 2 cav on each flank to guard and then move out aggressively. And 2 cav in reserve, to protect the artillery, reinforce the line if need be, or if not needed, they can move out to the flanks to get into the action, which greatswords or other reserve units couldn't do.
Artillery fills out the rest of the army. I think 4 is a good max. Artillery is great for sieges, and for outranging your enemy, but once the battle closes to hand to hand, they struggle to find targets without butchering your own men.
This was all amazing thank you so much! I definitely agree, a Checkerboard or Chevron is easier to use but for variety’s sake I do like having different tactics to use. Your composition ideas are great! I’ll definitely look into trying them out thank you so much bro!
@@MalleusGaming57 I'm glad you liked it. I typed it all fast, and then was like, should I really post all this? :D This was actually my second attempt since I didn't post another one, but I just really wanted to share. :D
After I left my comment, I went back into Warhammer 3 to do some more testing, against a 20 man Orc Boyz rush army. Surprisingly to me, the chevron army did the best, because more guns made a big difference. Also, focusing the Lord down first made a big difference.
My army was 6 halberds, 12 handguns, the Lord, and 1 cannon, which was needed to get them to come at me. The orc army could easily have outflanked me, but as I pulled my handguns back, they targeted the halberds, which let me shoot them to pieces.
I did feel the need for some cav, especially when I won the battle, and couldn't chase the fleeing orcs. But my front line was stretched as it was. That's where I got the idea for a reinforcing army filled with cav.
Cut the army down to 5 halberds, 10 handguns, 4 cannons, and the Lord. Then a reinforcing army with another Lord, and up to 12 Empire Knights/Reiksguard, and 6 Pistoliers/Outriders. I think that's what it takes to have a complete IRL style army, that works in Warhammer 3.
Plus, the chevron style used, of two flanking handguns for every halberd unit, is very similar to the formations used by the Dutch in the 80 Years War, and the Swedish under Gustavus Adolphus in the 30 Years War.
Good luck with the videos! They are very fun!
@@shorewall bro thank you so much! I love that composition and never really thought about having a reinforcing cavalry army! I guess it’s a lot more viable now that the Supply Lines aren’t as punishing. I’ll definitely look into more of those formations, getting them to work in the game is a lot of fun
I think a rotating circle with checkerboard gaps for the range to fire thru is superior. You have to lock all halberdiers in formation, but this lets you rotate the entire formation like a carousal wheel, which will cause the AI to tilt sideways, exposing their flank to musket fire, while simultaneously allowing the pike unit behind them to rear charge the exposed enemy unit.
It can take a while to setup, but I think it's worth a shot.
That sounds really really cool I just don’t think I’m picturing it properly for how it’d work. Could you elaborate on that please because it sounds badass and I really wanna try it haha
Nice video
Thanks bro!
The only problem is my pikes can't really hold the line because the enemies have way superior Stats
This tactic works amazingly in Medieval 2 tho
Oh man I miss Medieval 2 I need to play it again sometime. I've found Halberds to be fairly good at holding, a few defensive buffs from a Wizard or General definitely help a lot though. My next iteration of this is gonna have some Greatswords as back up for the front line though, hopefully that'll help a lot
Soy español de andalucia, y me siento orgulloso de que un anglosajón conozca el arma sublime del gran capitán que hizo nuestro imperio indestructible
Well I'm not Anglo-Saxon, I'm Latino haha its my Spanish heritage as well bud! Cheers!
Hm, perhaps you could try the Swedish Brigade system only with a mix of greatswords as shock troops. Come to think about it, you could include swordsmen or greatswords in the Tercio as tactical QRF or shock troops.
Absolutely I'll be looking into that at some point. I love learning about and trying to adapt historical formations that'd be really cool. And yeah I'll definitely be adding in some Greatswords, a lot of people here have recommended it and its just such a good idea. Cheers bud!
it's a cool video 🎉
you should have a look at mod named: landschneckt (an empire reskin) which looks more historic 😊 cheers and looking forward to seeing your next video!
Thanks so much! That sounds cool I'll look into it, cheers bud!
Great video, various comments the Tercio close combat is a fusion the swordmen, pikemen and halberdiermen. So your inclousion of halberdiermen is perfect because the first line is their place, also you can incloude swordmen has a second line because all soldiers has one and when the pike is broke the pikemen combert a swordmen and fight like one. Another thing, you can incloude one greatswords as a dooppelsolner (to breake onther pike's formation) or guard for the general (maestre de campo) because is also historical. For the cavallery you must incloude 2 or 3 imperial pistoliers or outriders (reiters and arcabuceros a caballo) as skirmish or protect the flank and 1 or 2 knights in reserve.
The Tercio was a perfect unit because is professional soldiers and his flexibility in the field, adopt various formations and tactics not only "cuadro cerrado".
Thanks for the video and sorry for my english.
Thanks for watching! Your English is really good no need to apologize :) Having some Greatswords is a great idea, a few people have mentioned it and I totally agree they'd help out the front line a lot. I wish the army could be a bit bigger than 20 units, adding in some Outriders would be amazing along with the Knights. Thanks for your comment and advice amigo!
nice video
Thanks bro! Glad you liked it!
Interesting :)
Thanks glad you enjoyed it!
Do more tactic videos like this
Cheers bud! I've got some more planned out!
Love it real live warfare combined with Fantasy warfare
Thanks bud! Glad you enjoyed it! I found it really fascinating what you can pull from real life tactics, and how you can adapt them to deal with all the crazy fantasy stuff. It's a neat little challenge
Interesting video! I can however see a possible weakness that wasn't directly mentioned. Both gunpowder and pike units (halbardiers, spears etc) Are not well suited against an enemy with superior ranged weapons. Woodelves, Highelves etc. Since bows can fire in a arc this means that depending on the terrain they will have clear line of sight of your units while you will have almost zero chance of retaliating. Especially effective when neither of your units use shields and part of them are facing the flanks leaving their sides exposed.
You are absolutely right it'd be an absolute massacre against Elves. This definitely isn't something you'd want to bust out all the time, it seems best against hordes of Melee troops. I feel like Elves in particular are just a hard counter to this. Thanks for watching bud!
Would be amazing a unit based on the tercios for the future dogs of war dlc
Bro I'm craving Dogs of War now after researching and recording this vid! Pikemen, arquebusiers, pavise crossbowmen and all the crazy DoW units! It'd be so good!
As a Spanish im proud of your video
🇪🇦⚔
Gracias mi hermano! I'm not from Spain but I am of Latino descent so it felt nice to represent for my Spanish heritage! Glad you enjoyed it!
My dude reinvented the noob box.
I call it: El Noob Box
the spanish invented the noob box xD jokes a side, nice content, i just found your channel, and im binge watching!
Lmao they originally called it "El Noob Box" haha glad you enjoyed it bro and thanks so much!
The Tercio could move but in game I don't think that's possible if you want to keep the formation. The Tercio was used in a line formation as well with pike in the center and shot on the flanks. I don't think this would work at all in game though. I was able to use this formation to very good effect in Medieval 2.
I really need to play Medieval 2 again its been a while and it was my first Total War game! With this formation you can move them around as long as you lock the group together with Ctrl + G, they'll march forward and then retake their positions. I didn't know it was used as a line formation as well, this has been really interesting for me learning about these tactics, thanks bud!
The problem the people who invented the tercio is that nobody ever thought that they could simply corner camp
Omg such scrubs! Didn't even know how to corner camp! Lmao I was thinking this was kinda like making your own Corner Camp, I guess really if the terrain is just not suitable or anything
My Empire Campaign was going super poorly until I adopted a similar tactic. Every army consisted of the same:
-Arch Lector
-Warrior Priest
-Light Mage
-5 Halberds
-6 Handgunners
-2 Reiksguard
-2 Cannons
-2 Hellstorm Rocket Batteries (replace w/Cannons for early game)
Basically had a similar deployment strategy; except I did not have as deep a formation since I wanted all my guns shooting at the same time- the Spaniards didnt have Net of Amytok, so we have a bit of an advantage for being able to focus fire.
Bro! I didn’t even think of Warrior Priests or an Archlector! They’d be sooo good buffing the troops! I really like your army composition definitely gets me thinking for this. Cheers bud!
As an Spaniard, the tercio was not only a professional unit was the élite.
The idea was the coordination of Pikes and shot. The arcabusiers(shot) was to attack in distance to the enemy while is advancing to the front. Once that the enemy unit are near to combat hand by hand they go back of the pikes. The pikes was to fight hand by hand.
At first point were effective because Spain was the inventor of Firearms in Europe and was used by tercios in 1450. Comparing with other european countries that used in XVII. Century. Not to say the great experience of combat in Reconquista. In Italy worked so well because France was really confident in medieval armies with famous French cavalry.
At the Netherlands, thats the point. Spain hold only the south part. And also they have the support of England. Once they achieved to used also the firearms in XVII.century that makes spanish tercios little by little reduce the superior technology.
It’s a really cool time period, I had a lot of fun researching about it. Does my Spanish heart proud!
@@MalleusGaming57 The Spain Great Captain was the Father of the spanish tercio infantery.
as a spanish guy i aprove this video COJONES!
Welp guess I'm starting a new Empire campaign with Tercio armies now
Haha let me know how it goes bud! I’m thinking of doing the same
Early modern muskets at worst would get a 3/5 hit rate at a single target to 80 meters and irl were more likely using a bit better gas seal than modern paper towels and would be firing on an entire formation in salve or volley
I wish there was a way to make a countermarch in Warhammer, the front rank fires and while spending 30 - 50 seconds loading would go the the back of the loose gunman square, rinse and repeat and save a few salves for a close and last minute volley at around 20 - 50 meters
Another weakness is that it doesn’t concentrate force at the front. AI in WHTW doesn’t really flank that much except with cavalry, so your units at the front will be punished while are redeploying your halberds from the sides to go help them.
Very good point! I’m thinking of taking a unit of Handgunners and Halberds from the back and using them to reinforce the front. A single unit of Halberds should be fine at the back, just in case
@@MalleusGaming57yeah
just an issue that makes me get bored eventually with TW games. Once you can predict the AI and manipulate it, the excitement of the battles goes away and it becomes more of a sandbox game, which is still fun but without the same sense of threat. Just a problem with single player games in general I guess.
@@photosyntheticzee9915 only bring Vlad max out level and equip and you can kill with this one unit army 3 Dark Elves armies lol
The Mediterranean in me loves this offensive defense.
Haha this was a lot of fun to do and the Spanish in me was pretty proud! Cheers buddy!
Hi, great you picked up this tactic / formation and good to see, that certain real life tactics work also in a game like warhammer fantasy. Now to the tercio and your interpretation. I think, the way you set this square up is way to wide. Tercios were indeed rather densly packed masses of (cheap) Pike-Infantery supported by small "Fortresses" of Arquebusiers and Musketiers ( even Crossbows in the very early phase ) and swordmen. Now using halberds in place of pikes is certainly the way to go in WH3 as the empire has no pikemen. But you would need to make the tercio square much smaller in order to achieve : 1. more depth in your halberd regiments to receive charges from strong close combat units , Monsters and cavalry. 2. to reduce the distances your gunpowder detachments ( fortresses ) have to move into the safety of the inner tercio-square and 3. free up regiments of halberdiers to place into the inner tercio with the task of providing quick support to those parts of the tercio rim which may need support. You could even use sword and shield regiments for this task as they have more staying power then halberds usually. So as a starter, I'd cut the dimensions of the tercio by 50%. I know, that this may increase losses in case of cannon fire or breath-attacks / magic missiles , but tbh. that was the problem for tercios in reality too ( see descriptions of the battle of Roicy ). It was also the reason, why not all countries were able to use tercioas so successful as the spanish. Their men were not only highly trained, but also highly disciplined and did not break easily when facing losses in their ranks and files due to cannon-fire. This kind of character for troops was not so widespread among other countries armies at the time ( around 30 years war ). Good luck for your further battles and keep up the interesing, good work.
Cheers bud thanks for the advice! I was really surprised at how well this worked when I first started looking into it, I agree with everything you said. Since this initial video I've refined it a bit more, I think probably my videos "Improving The Tercio" and "Testing The Tercio" show how the suggestions you made play into effect. I appreciate the feedback and support brother!
Bro do some campaign using such historical warfare tactics that would be awesome
Oh I definitely plan to! I've made heavy use of Checkerboard and Chevron formations but this'll be really fun to use! Preferably I'd like to use a Southern Realms mod to unlock Estalia!
Seems that the biggest obvious weakness is that it's an inefficient allocation of forces; since maintaining the formation means you'll always have troops out-of-combat while your opponent commits their full strength.
So if two forces of equal value fight one another, with one deployed in this way, there's a clear misbalance.
Yeah that totally makes sense, I found that 2 smaller Tercios helped with that, getting more of your units engaged. Cheers bro!
Very interesting, could you do the same and discuss the Dutch reforms to the tercio by Maurice of Nassau. I'm not sure it can be modelled in wh3.
Thank you! And I absolutely will that sounds like it’d be really cool. Admittedly I know absolutely nothing about it but I love history and researching about it! Hopefully at least something can be utilized in wh3. Cheers bud!
Now this is the kind of warhammer content I'm looking for. Gotta love legend but you just dont get this kinda stuff with him
Thanks so much my dude! I can't wait to do more like this!
I've used this strategy since warhammer 1. The choice of kings.
Lmao yes!! That's so cool! Have you found its become less effective or anything as the game evolved?
If you brought a Captain or maybe some Greatswords instead of the cavalry you could really get some more beef in that infantry line whilst not needing to worry about screening out enemy cav as much
That's a good idea, I was thinking the cavalry aren't really too necessary in this, replacing them with some Greatswords behind the front line of Halberds seems like great solution! Cheers bud!
@@MalleusGaming57
Happy to help.
Also helps cut down on the micro.
If you do this with Gelt or bring a caster with a good unit buffing lore you can probably make this work really nicel
Bro, Gelt buffing the front line and dropping spells on those nice clumped up formations! It'll be so brutal! I love it
Cool! Gonna try this in my Shogun Total War campaign. Less chance of dragon attack 😂.
Less chance. But not "No Chance" :p lmfao that'd be one helluva surprise wouldn't it? Cheers bro I need to check out Shogun some day I've heard nothing but amazing things about it
@@MalleusGaming57 It’s a little dated but it’s very well balanced.
Your best counter to enemy flying units and artillery is to reduce the number of pikemen reduce the size of the square but increase the number of artillery pieces to better duel the enemy artillery and focus fire on enemy large or flying units. In the case of magic your only counter is to use your missile units and artillery to try and focus down the magic user and then use either a hero/lord or a cavalry unit to break out of your square formation and strike at your opponents magic user while the rest of their forces are occupied fighting you.
Yeah that's part of the reason why I'm hesitant to get rid of the Cavalry, they'd be super helpful in striking out against key enemy units far away. At the same time I was thinking of how effective more cannons would be for counter artillery fire. Would Volley Guns be too much to use with a Tercio you think?
@@MalleusGaming57 I think that's something you have customise according to the opponent you face since some artillery tends to be more effective than others depending on who your fighting but as Napoleon said "God is on the side with the most cannons"
Your spanish pronunciation is spot on. Congrats.
Thanks so much!
Using history to inform your fantasy tactics. Just like the OG creators of Warhammer Fantasy.
We've gone full circle.
Haha some things really are timeless
Great video! I've tried this, but pike and shot are no match against an angry elf lady that can summon sword tornados.
Lmao Sword of Khaine don't care about nobody's tactics!
I have tried 3 custom battles against vampires, 3 against beastmen, and 3 against high elves. I figured the vampire fear/terror was a hard counter since it instantly broke the square, but raw damage from beastmen was also too much, so finally I thought this formation was only good against "peer" factions who fought similarly to the Empire, but High Elves also won due to their superior range and the innately defensive nature of the Tercio.
My experience with this formation has been that
it is INCREDIBLY micro intensive
the infantry are in long and thin 3 or 4 rank deep formations that result in rapid casualty losses due to how many are exposed to melee by forming 1st rank
the enemy has a numerical advantage in infantry and/or cavalry, so once melee begins the handguns get pressured into the square and basically only get to fire from the outer rear of the square. The problem with that is you have 8 handguns, and arranging 4 handguns in a line on the back of the square means you have 2 handguns ready to duck back into the square and 6 handguns who won't make it before getting caught by melee infantry or run over by cavalry
I tried replacing 4 guns with 4 empire knights, knights still numerically inferior and always got 2v1d. When the enemy missiles were exposed, the knights couldn't abuse that because their purpose was to defensively charge threats to the handguns. This method did not fare better. So I tried punishing missiles with cavalry. This resulted in too much micro when combined with trying to manage the handguns.
I tried shrinking the square to extend halberd life times, I tried Generals and Captains with Hold the Line! and Stand Your Ground!, I tried ranged skirmisher cavalry, I tried demigryphs because they have better raw stats...
I feel like an idiot, like there's some incredibly obvious aspect of this formation I'm missing? But the only thing I can think of is something this video doesn't use to justify the formation, which is that the halberd square lends to a lot of enemy infantry blobs for bombardment/breath/wind spells.
Sounds like you’ve really been putting it through its paces my dude! What army compositions did you use for the Vamps, Beasts and Elves? I wanna try it out too as I’ve only used it against an equal funds Chaos Warriors army. I’ll let you know what I find out!
It is quite ironic that in fact it is artillery that is the killer of the Tercio formation
The problem of this formation are the Fénix from Elves and the Ghost Galeons from Vampire Coast, but the historical ones, not those from Warhammer. That's how Spain lost world hegemony, vampire pirates and the bloody leaf lovers.
I recommend you try spearmen with shields. With tech and redline they get a whopping 64 melee defense!
That sounds really good, especially with their shields to help against missiles
perhaps if the corners of the tercio overlapped for a denser more resistant flank. I think I would also attempt to rotate the tercio 45 degrees before contact if possible, but I know that could be difficult.
Oh yeah an overlap and then moving to form a wedge shape would be really cool, but yeah you're right it'd be super tricky to pull off without getting caught mid-maneuver. Something to try though for sure