Retired builder and remodeler here for thirty years. You did the right thing by stepping up when you didn't have to. By the time you spend all the time, money, and possibly attorneys avoiding the fix, you're better off just fixing and keeping your reputation intact. Had a similar scenario where I removed the siding and trim and bolted a 3/4 length 1/2" steel plate direct to outside of beam using a engineering formula I had to research myself to give to the project engineer. Whole lot better then removing hangers and trying to wedge in a strengthener. We planned on Rim trimming when we were done, but the owner liked the primer painted plate and bolts so we decorative cut the ends of the steel plate and painted it. Looked like it was intentional from the start which is always a goal.
@@ellkir1521 Not enough jobsite experience for the engineer.. Went to school in the old country in Eastern Europe. We have specialized high schools, and for construction it was a pre engineering curriculum mixed in with architecture. One full day out of the week was visting jobsite around the city and doing reports. One full day was auto cad.. We need this system in the states so badly..
@@gueswhosthis agree with all above. fabulous job by the framers, though I'm terminally lazy, and finding the most effective, long-lasting, easiest to get done "fix" is always at the front of my mind. Still, getting it done right up front is always the best option. On the need for this in the states... if only... we'll have to get kids off social media and drugs long enough for them to see the value of a "real" job.
I was a residential carpenter there in Washington back in the 1980s during the building boom of the late 80s and 1990s. Standing behind your work shows alot of integrity and will go a long way for your brand....
I've lifted a ton of buildings. Next time use one jack. Buy a bigger one. They're cheap. You probably spent more on lumber to mess with two than the const of buying a big enough jack. You eventually figured out that the jack goes a the top. Ditch the metal plate. It's slippery. If you really want to avoid putting a divot into the LVL use a wooden plate. nail it to the beam and let the jack bite into it. Not slippery. One guy works the jack. Everyone else is out of the danger zone prepared to call EMS if necessary. There is absolutely no use for extra squishy humans in the danger zone. Great job getting it done. Hope these tips help someone.
They would have been better using the proper tools like acro jacks, very cheap to hire and not insanely dangerous like building that contraption out of wood then using vehicle jacks.
@@schrodingerscat1863 totally agree. was fortunate to have seen some "old timers" raise a roof to remove a wall and make room for a cap concrete poor.. used their techniques forever after.. and that was back in the 70's.
Let's see now... you have been in business for a long time. You do the right thing even when you don't have to... you have been in business for a long time... I wonder if there is a connection there? Thanks for another video. By the way, that is a beautiful house you built.
@@AwesomeFramersYes, plenty of production builders that build crap day after day and have been in business for a LONG time as well. The difference is that your clients will hire you again and might even invite you to little Jimmy's graduation party.
That made me think of a different story, about getting the contracts. Contractor: Why do you always offer the contract to us? Our rates at 50% higher than our competitors. Customer: Yes, but they need twice as many hours....
I wish I could say I've never had a jack kick out. Even though I knew nobody got hurt, I tensed up watching the guys cranking on the jacks (well, only the first five time I saw it). Good job (and smart business) to take care of an issue outside normal warranty parameters. We all make mistakes, not everybody fixes them. Also, did my heart good seeing one of the crew going over the driveway with the magnet. If you'd spent several thousand dollars fixing the beam but the owner got a flat tire, that's the story he'd tell everyone who would listen.
Dog stepping on a nail is the one that got me. In my defense, I informed her not to let the dogs out back that night because we hadn't done a thorough job of clearing the yard of debris, but she put them out. I never put it in writing and I didn't block her door, so my insurance just ate it. I'm sure she tells anyone who will listen about her dog having to go to the vet because of a nail in the foot.
I disagree somewhat that it shouldn't fall on the engineer on record. It is his responsibility to double check the architectural design and ensure that it will work with the point loads that are there. But it is a little bit on the architect as well. It shouldn't however be on your company Tim. As a contractor too, as long as we build according to the plan, we can't know what beams will be sufficient in place. This is why we need to be sure to build exactly to the drawings so it doesn't fall back on us..... I do like your videos and content and the way you execute them!! Keep em' coming, CHEERS!
@@AwesomeFramers It's not really the plan reviewers responsibility to catch engineering mistakes. Sometimes they do, but if they don't it's not their obligation. Draftsman have no responsibility at all for sizing members. The owner/builder probably didn't specify engineering design criteria and code minimums are laughable and this beam probably meets those anyway. I am a structural eningieer and a contractor and I don't do the engineering on my own projects because there is so little money involved with having someone else do it. I do specify performance and review their calcs, but I am not the engineer of record on our projects. Curious if this fix was engineered and "wet stamped"?
Quick tip that I learned from our concrete guy while remodeling a flip house: Set the post on the flat surface (garage floor) and put your bottle jack ON TOP of the post. The post becomes a wide safe base for the bottle jack and all the action is happening up top. Far less likely to slip out like that. Edit: Just realized that you figured that out later in the video. thanks for this upload yall!
Can also nail on a skirt that will encase the jack and prevent it from kicking out. It's dangerous to jack something up when the jacks and posts aren't plumb and the mating surfaces flat.
Whenever you are using two post, one after the other, you have potential for buckling. You either reinforce the joint to not have a hinge point, or stabilize laterally the joint like they do in this video. Having the jack on top or below doesn't change anything. Be careful or call someone who knows what he's doing.
The mentioned pivot point’ issue. I’m old Sokol here.take it for what it is or isn’t.all the jobs I had to do similar work. I use the large screw jacks. The face is around 5” compared to a hydraulic jack with a 1 1/2” face of the jack piston. I also use a piece of sheet steel to distribute that downward pressure over a larger square ft area. Great video and process of analysis. Thank you for sharing.
I rented screw jacks, very safe & lots of control over jacking speed & height. Two days for your crew, engineering, materials plus a bunch of figuring on your part. Not a small repair for a home owner. Good on you for making it right 👍
What this video shows us is that it is far, far, far better, easier and less costly to overbuild load bearing beams than it is to rectify problems later. Sandwiching a continuous layer of quarter inch plate steel all of the way across the span between the load bearing joists and screwing bolts through the wood beams and the steel plate to tightly sandwich the wood beams and plate steel together would have prevented sagging when it was first built. It is always a Good Lesson when we learn from our mistakes and do not repeat them.
They almost killed a worker fixing a mistake the wrong way with no effort to figure out safety before taking action. Admirable to show off that process, not necessarily to to it in the first place.
This video came across my feed and was the first of yours that i have watched. Several observations: 1. Awesome humor 2. Committed to quality work 3. More committed to excellent reputation 4. Not a finger pointer, passing blame (seem willing to own mistakes and/or absorb blame even if not your personal mistake) 5. That's all about good character Wish you were in Arkansas. You would be my go to. Thanks
@shepgre awesome review I must admit. I have been in the construction business for 35 years and I am all of what you stated. They were in except for number 4 I find it very difficult too withhold the blame when it is somebody else's fault. I find it very difficult to retire now that I have turned sixty four I am still turning tricks for my customers. Although I do believe I am going to finally dissolve benji's custom home improvements company as I haveffectively began handicap ramps and rails incorporate.. I just wish I could get these people to pay me what i'm worth.
This shows how much integrity you have! You did the right thing even though you didnt have too. It was a simple fix and didnt put you out much. Good job as always. Youd be surprised how many builders would just walk and block the homeowners number.
I work on the design side.....this issue is 100% on the engineer. The designer / architect...designed the span and showed "a" beam. But it was up to the engineer to do the load calcs. He-she knew the span, knew the load and did the final calculations.
You should call this episode "Wise Decisions come from Wise Guys" lol but seriously a good move and way less stressful than defending your business in a lawsuit or arbitration hearing regardless of being right. Shows your integrity as builder and as a person and goes a long ways in a community you do lots of work in. Cheers
The takeaway is your integrity; you mentioned that you have your name on enough of the houses in the nieghb', let alone making it worse by trying to say it's not your responsibility via lawyering. You make it right, and there's no story for people to tell about Pioneer except that they heed the call back. It's a good business lesson, thanks.
Glad to hear you can still build prescriptive in some instances, i did one spec back in 2008 this way that turned out fine but glad to hear you took care of it for the Company sake. We have a Rural Residential code that allows for Residential structures to be built without Engineering as long as the owner lives in the home I believe 3yrs. Minimum and your not allowed to rent it, but i tend to oversize situations like this and generally tell the clients that they may save more in materials than the cost of Engineering and they will have piece of mind. Kudos, from a long time builder turned Draftsman! Great content!
I have seen an entire house rack out of shape using this method. At some point the wall and floor above is going release an enormous amount tension. Cracks, window shatter and possibly a countertop failure. Sorry, not impressed.
Wish I could find contractors/builders like AwesomeFramers in So Calif! Even on $3M-$4M houses, construction is often shoddy and cuts corners. The emphasis always seems to be on cosmetic surfaces and finishes to "look expensive", not the underlying construction & mechanical quality -- because that can't be immediately detected.
You're watching the wrong videos. Watch "That Ain't Right" and you might be grateful for what you got. (I was admiring the sweep propped on the garage wall... and then seeing it used at the end.)
I’m in So Cal and I value integrity and honor greatly! We do exist, but the general atmosphere of cynicism and dishonesty prevail such that we don’t get hired because we charge a fair price instead of lowballing every bid and then have to butcher the job to stay in business.
8:08 Every carpenter I know has had this happen at some point. Not-so-pro tip...use an adjustable steel jack post as a progress capture. You guys are the best
Tim it shows that your company too include your great brother are men that treat others as you would like to be treated ! Just really impressed you guys took the high road ! Not surprised! But impressed !
@@andreycham4797those aren’t mutually exclusive. Integrity is technically defined as “the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles.” Fixing an issue that he isn’t required to fix legally (that’s the moral principles in case you missed it) and admitting that he and his company made mistakes in missing the proper sizing of the beam and fixing it at his expense IS a sign of integrity. Posting on RUclips “to make a buck” has zero to do with it and is an example of being honest about making the mistake. So it’s integrity times two.
good for you guys just framed a garage with a remodel on a 3 story house with 2 huge beams in the garage supporting a corner 20ft each way on sandy soil on beach in so cal throughout my time as a builder and remodeler Ive had to fix quite a few things some my fault others not.....its just good business practice
Great video. I applaud how you stand by your work, in this case, a mistake made by someone else. I've had three instances where a contractor simply walked away from problems they were hired to fix and didn't fix, including problems that that they created. Nice fix. (You can do without 17:25 through 20:15. No idea what you're talking about)
I might guess that the engineer may have used a deflection limit of l/360 which is about 3/4” for. 22’ span. Possibly a cambered beam to begin with may have worked better to mitigate it in hindsight. Wonder if your solution will again deflect but I would estimate about a 25% improvement, so about a half inch which is about l/480. A pretty good result. Enjoyed your video , thanks.
Depends on the business law incorporated. If it's not required by law, the no you're not liable. But, as a builder, we do want our stamp on projects to continue being a positive image. These are non-tangible brand assets associated. Contract's with warranties inform the buyer of if things arise. Outside of it, one may not be required by law, but overall product quality vs lawsuits and other factors, it would be simpler to fix anything that may arise, due to our engineerings. "Always Buy Local" Great work guys 👏🏾🔨
The way your man was positioned behind both those jacks pumping them up was damned scarry. Never would I in a million years put myself in that position. Lucky no injury. Imagine having that beam land on your head or shoulder. We jacked up the ceiling beam in our living room, reinforced after realigning and putting two 1/4 inch steel plates secured with 24 lag bolts either side. Like your work ethic!!!
I wonder about the thought process of the different parties involved here. Do I have it right that the 3/4" deflection is not a structural issue, the beam is strong enough, as is? First, I'm amazed an inspector noticed it and I'd be curious as to how he wrote it up. Somewhere between "slight deflection in beam, within tolerances" and "Dangerous sagging in beam, potential failure" Second: How did the homeowner understand what the inspector wrote? I've had homeowners very concerned that a 1/8" check in a 6x6 column was going to cause a catastrophe. I wonder if the homeowner understood that it's not a structural issue. Was there any damage to the interior finishes above from the movement? When that jack kicked out that was my first thought.
Great questions. Beam was at its limit when checked by our engineer this month (he is not the EOR for this project). The owner as having some remodeling done and THAT inspector noticed the sag. Owner reached out to us, I drove over there, took some measurements and got our engineer involved.
It's good to see both. Talking head shows the thought process and how you're functionally solving the problems. Learning different stuff not a HGTV 30 minute build without the real information.
Kudos for being a quality builder who stands behind his work! My solution would have been to tack a steel plate 3/8”x6”x22’-0” to the underside of the span. Jack at mid span. Then screw the plate into the bottom flange of your timber beam. Screw spacing, size, and depth would require design and prefabbed into plate. Maybe add some plywood sheathing to the vertical surface of the beam.
"It was under-designed by the draftsman..." Sorry? Maybe I don't understand what a "draftsman" is, but isn't it an architect or an engineer who designs structures?
"Draftsman" was a term used decades ago when design was done with a pencil and a "drafting board" hence the term "dratfsman". They are typically not engineers and not architects either. Their expertise is taking architectural and engineering information and putting it all on a piece of paper that effectively communicates the intentions of the architect and engineer to the builder. In this particluar scenario the "draftsman" may have created the plans for the house but they certainly did not size all the beams and structure. That was done by the engineer. The "draftsman" just modelled all that in CAD.
As a builder I know how hard it is to find some good faithful guys. Be thankful that you got guys who help you be the best you can be. They all want top dollar with the knowledge of a guy who wonders what lineal means.
Agree, good for you in making the effort to fix it. However, I have a gut feeling that simply adding one more lvl over a 20 ft span is not going to be enough extra strength to prevent a substantial amount of sag from recurring. And now you also have the three original lvls that have been deflected over a long period of time and even if they had no load, would probably retain a bit of sag just from that stress so you're working against that as well with just one additional member. It would have been very interesting to see what the sag was after your upgrade. I think a structural engineer should have been hired to spec a beefy enough solution. I'd sure hate to see you have to come back again after all this, but good luck, I hope it works!
36” wooden wedges driven under the temp. Supports, a 3lb sledge hammer to drive em . Bottle jacks are “dangerous” in this situation. Wedges and clamps are every carpenters friend. 40 years of experience, tips and tricks.
I noticed that after you were done and took out the post, that you didn't double check to see if the sag came back. I'll bet it did somewhat, but not as much as it was. A better approach would have been to glue the extra piece on along with screwing it, then there wouldn't have been any sag because glue doesn't give like screws do in the wood fibers. The best remedy would have been to "over jack" the beam by about 1/4 inch and then make the fix. My guess would be that you started with a 3/4 sag, ended with a 1/2 sag, but if you would have glued it, you would have ended up with a 1/4 sag, and if you over jacked it, you may end up with no sag at all.
Ha! I made the exact same suggestion like couple minutes ago in a post. It just seemed like the smart thing to do, but I didn't suggest over jacking which I think is an even better idea. Some sort of structural glue like a PL or something.
Back in my day I would of stood there on a stack of news papers holding it up myself with good ol' fashioned elbow grease for as long as necessary to get the job done. You kids got it so easy these days.
Our Structural Engineer is very much of the opinion that you cannot beat steel for large spans like this. I was leaning on him pretty hard last year in an effort to eliminate steel from a proposed design and the required volume of engineered timber to carry the same loads ended up being cost prohibitive compared to steel. Curious about the role your draftsman plays in this? Here a draftsman would fairly strictly be drawing what was prescribed by the structural engineer but you seem to suggest the draftsman in this case was being retrospectively peer reviewed by the engineer which seems a bit backwards......? Regardless, as everyone is saying, kudos for taking this responsibility when you technically didn't have to!!!!
The Engineer is in charge and is responsible for design . The Engineer does the designing. The draftsman does the drawing. It is the Engineer responsibility to check the draftsman's work. If the Engineer missed the draftsman's error it is the Engineer's error. This seems like the Engineer not taking responsibility for his work and passing the blame to the lowest paid individual.
The cost comparison of volume of engineered wood versus steel is a great comment, I would would prefer steel for this span, and the top comment mentions a similar remediation using steel plate reinforcement of wood beam.
Glad you stepped up and fixed it. Your solution is fine, but I would have looked at placing that beam ABOVE the existing outside beam by removing some siding and sheathing. By placing it above and tying it in with truss ties to make double-height beam, it would have been considerably stronger. Also once a beam (even and enginerred one) sags it always wants to fall back into that sag and pull your new beam with it. I would have jacked it up with a slight crown past level before tying in the new beam. Just my thought after doing this for 30 years
It all falls on the engineers' shoulders. They are the one's who hold the responsibility.. That's exactly why nothing can be done without the engineers stamp of approval. His only job is to check the specs of situations like this and be sure that it's not under built.. Now usually LVL's in cases like this, are required to be glued and screwed together at a specific interval, (such as 4 screws high spaced every 8 inches, etc.); which should be listed in the detailed blueprints. And if it's not there, you should always double check with the engineer or at the very least, check with the lumber yard as to recommended spans... You guys may have just installed it wrong; sometimes it actually calls for lag bolts. But again, the engineer should have specified. Whenever I had questionable spans like this, I always got something in writing from the engineer.. even if just a text message.. I always made sure to know exactly what was called for and how it should be installed; and typically we would just over build it. So it called for 16" LVL's.. I would just order 18" LVL's to be sure. The customer was always happy to know that it's over spec. They aren't worried about saving a few hundred dollars on a beam.. Just build it over spec and they will be happy campers.
@@gabemillee3726 Wrong.. The Architect makes the drawing first and then it's up to the engineer to make it happen. They have to "engineer" the drawing and stamp their approval on exactly how it should be built. I built houses for over a decade and have had many meetings with both of them in the room. The engineer has final say on what materials to use and what size, etc.. that's literally his only job. He's the math nerd that tells everyone what has to be used.
@@gabemillee3726 The architect just draws a line across the page and says "I want a beam across here"-- and his job is done. Now the Engineer has to calculate all the weight loads above that area and spec out the size and spans, etc.. Then the framer just builds it to that spec. Again, no one can do anything without the ENGINEER's approval. They have to literally stamp the print, which is a legally binding agreement that he is responsible if they build it to HIS SPEC and it still fails... That's why it costs so much to get that engineer's stamp, because he's taking on a lot of responsibility and liability. So it's not cheap.
Should’ve used the steel plate all the way across or it should’ve been a steel I-beam at the very beginning of construction. Also, I’d like to see how much the deflection was after the post was removed. Anyhow, I think you guys stepped up and did the right thing. Great work. 👍
I am thinking you have could be customers hanging on the fence with your proposals , if they watch this video , you may just snag a couple .......would or will be custormers....good business and a good fix, I wonder though, could the beam have had a slight crown and it just got turned down when you framed the house,even though you are always watching for crowns in most dimensional lumber , we get spoiled on engineered beams being straight but now and then I have found one with a small crown. Also , many of my larger jobs that had long spans of 40 to 50 ft ,the manufacturer of the beams and girders had made them with crowns in them because the load going on them was heavy enough to level them out, it was amazing to see such beams deflect as much as some have. I have spent a life time of problem solving as they come and as you know, its part of it on restoration work , its great that you did this video to show thinking that may be outside the box, keep em coming , stay safe .
I've spent 10 yrs repairing, rebuilding, restructuring, lifting leveling squaring up my 100 yr old historic home. I also used to do building moving rigging etc with mobile offices and buildings. Next time, build concrete block piers and use 20ton jacks with white oak load spreaders. Way easier and safer to manage for lifting, and I've iut 10 beams in my home using this method
Interesting to watch how different building techniques are used around the world. In Norway, I think it's more common to use gluelam beam than LVL/LSL for heavy beams. For joists, it's fairly common to use I-joists with OSB core. For the temporary support column, I think it is a nice idea to use a pair of wedges under the column. Use (maybe 10" of 2x6, cut it diagonally, and you easily have 3/8" adjustment, adjustment, and still 6x6 support surface. When you install it, your cut only need to be approximately, because you can make it exact with the wedges. When you remove it, you just remove the screws that kept it from moving, then knock the wedges out from under it. (No need to use the saw to cut it)
The work you will gain by doing the right thing will more than pay for the time and materials you use. Plus you can sleep well knowing you did the right thing. I wish more people had your attitude.
Nicely done. 32:12 As far as cutting that column: I wonder if cutting it from both sides at 45 degree downward angle would allow it to slide out. I suspect it would probably just bind the blade at the last second. maybe if you cut one side, then shimmed the kerf then cut the other side.
Nice fix. I've caught a few undersized beams on engineered plans. Recently on a project the engineer spec'd a double 2x10 when it should've been a triple 2x10. I only caught it because I was recently into the header span tables for another project and remembered how far a double 2x10 could span. He apparently had it spec'd for 50 psf snow load when we were in a 70 psf area.
The builder has the responsibility to do a job according to code no matter how it’s drawn on the plans. It literally says as much on any set of actual plans. As an electrician I can’t put a meter can on the roof just because it was drawn that way.
I've been a structural ironworker for 24 years and I was flinching when you guys were jacking that up initially especially with the one guys head in between the jack posts. But I wonder why you would choose an engineered wood product for such a span to begin with. Why not steel? Or even a flitch beam would've been superior to all that mess. If you'd like an inhouse iron guy I'd consider relocating now that I'm divorced. Lol.
"Why not steel? Or even a flitch beam would've been superior to all that mess." ~~ Both would have sagged just the same and there is nothing wrong with that!
Technically your company didn’t have to do anything, but good on you to protect your reputation. A flitch beam option would likely have helped with the defection but would be costly. Pro-tip: jack up the ends of the new beam to its final location instead of “beating” it up. I installed many of these beams solo and have had to find ways to complete the job.
I see a 6x14 laying on a driveway that slopes away from the garage. The jack, itself, isn't pointing at the subject beam, but at a point in front of the garage. A guaranteed failure, if it is unrestrained. Also, the rigidity of the building, will only allow the beam to rise in the middle, if the many fasteners bend slightly to allow for the shear strength of the sheathing and interior drywall or, if said panels buckle. Sorry, for my lack of eloquence. Physics and geometry always win. Nice show, by the way.
As a rule a good structural crew doesn't have to do remediation like this therefore the lack of knowledge on jacking up this kind of load Im taking notes on the process Great effort
I have found that performing this kind of repair with a 3 ton floor jack allows you to save the energy you would use pounding it in. Really saves you for the end of the day push.
Cool -- i recently jacked up the center of my ~3 story post & beam Victorian, fitted LVLs & posts, on custom lally columns & footers on ledge in the basement. 4 jack points. ALONE. Love your vids, worked for a guy like you in CA when i was 20.
Thank you for taking responsibility for your oversight and fixing it even though you were not "legally" responsible. Did you eat the costs, bill the owner, or charge back to the architects? You know you were doing it wrong. Why didn't you put the jacks at the top to start with? Because it was to much work? Was there any cracking or symptoms of the sag in the building above? Cracked plaster, windows, misaligned doors, cracked granite, new gaps? If the problem had not been spotted, could it have lead to a failure? Deconstructing joists. What a fix.
On an outdoor patio cover I used #4 rebar epoxied in a 1/2" wide , 1/2" deep grove with structural epoxy to reinforce the bottom of a sagging beam due to a knot. When I let down the jack the next day the sag was gone.
At least $600 for a plumber to move a couple of pvc pipes. I am an electrician, and if one of the regular builders i work for had an issue like this, I would help them out for a crate of beer. It's like 10 minutes of work. Crazy.
Spent my whole life in the Building Trades really brings back memories Some bad but mostly good .In my 70s now ., Good follow up guys . Those A frame steps are different ,I had bought steps with flat steps on both sides of the ladder 250 dollars back in the day .
I don’t like beam deflection in residential projects but it happens on engineered beams. On one job I added shear plywood to the beam and wall above after jacking it to straight. After removing the Jack it remained dead straight.
The allowable deflection, which is designed in is span/360, but with timber, because it is a natural material that moves as it dries, larger deflections are commonplace. I worked on a historic building where the 14" x 12" oak beams over the dining hall took on a sag of 12" over a span of 30ft that was mostly due to self weight. In mitigation they were 350 years old! These beams were then supported by the steel frame for the new roof over and there followed a delicate exercise of pulling up the beams to only take off the load (and no more) on them.
You should install squash blocks on the wood I beams for the temp wall. Also you can use screw jacks on the beam and the temp wall to take the load of the floor system off the beam and spread the load across the slab. A point load without a footing underneath the slab can punch shear through or crack the slab. Flitch plate would also be something to consider for the beam.
One post jacks up, the other has wedges taking up slack as a securing system if the jacking post deviates from vertical axis. In some cases acro-props can be the secondary.
You guys did the right thing, and I’m sure that you’ll be rewarded in other ways going forward. That aside, I think that you’re covering for the engineer, after all he designed it. To eliminate sag completely, a steel I beam probably should’ve been used?
They make some ridiculously tall LVLs now. Clearance has to be taken into consideration too. As a 42 year construction worker with 22 years as a licensed contractor, when things got changed during the build, a structural engineer should have ciphered that load. I, myself, wouldn't have thought that much deflection would have taken place on a triple...what...16"? The kitchen MIGHT have made me pause for thought, not too sure about that either. Good ol' hindsight!! 🤪
As far as we know the guy who invented the A-frame support system died about 7000-9000 years ago. It is known the ancient Egyptians used them very early into things. Of course it took till the Ancient Greeks about 2500 years ago to completely explain and prove mathematically why it works.
My friend lost a couple of front teeth when a bottle jack kicked out on him, and it could have been a lot worse. Be careful out there, folks. Nice job! That Kyle is a smart guy!
Once you change the design you're responsible for it. Regardless if it was wrong in the first place. I would suggest that that still will sag over in the next year or so It needs to be steel
Even you said that your team missed this flaw. A twenty foot span is very long with that kind of load above it. Anything over ten feet should require steel instead of glued wood.
"Under-designed by the drafter" is not a sufficient explanation for the error. It was foolish to continue jacking when you found 1/4" out of plumb, while the other worker said it was close to plumb when he began.
Possible RCA: Beam was designed without camber. Beam was built with a defect. Beam was installed with camber down. Structural engineer did not use correct live load calcs. Structural engineer used incorrect calc tables to determine beam size. Agree beam was undersized for a perimeter wall. My opinion from San Francisco California.
Just a tip: I think you missed the opportunity here to show us the amount of sag with a laserline en afterwards in the same way proving you fixed it. There is no way of telling that you did after you took away the 6x6...
The problem with hydraulic jacks is that almost always will leak down . I had similar problem an used a steel screw jack. It was my own house so I could raise it in increments over about a week. I actually raised about 3/8" high, bolted a 1/2' x 12" x18 foot steel plate to the double LVL header with 24 1/2" grade 8 bolts thru bolted to the LVLs on16" centers. It eventually settled down to almost level, about 1/8" high.
@@tonymers Sure, the hangers require a wipe down for paints and glues to adhere. A properly installed hanger doesn't squeak. Putting a dab of glue in the saddle doesn't do any good since the weight of the member supported will always be pushing towards the ground. I used to glue them, then realized if I just did a good job installing, I could skip that step as unnecessary. That was in the early 2000's. We have been building in the same communities since the middle 1980's and live in those communities. We'd hear if they squeak.
Retired builder and remodeler here for thirty years. You did the right thing by stepping up when you didn't have to. By the time you spend all the time, money, and possibly attorneys avoiding the fix, you're better off just fixing and keeping your reputation intact.
Had a similar scenario where I removed the siding and trim and bolted a 3/4 length 1/2" steel plate direct to outside of beam using a engineering formula I had to research myself to give to the project engineer. Whole lot better then removing hangers and trying to wedge in a strengthener. We planned on Rim trimming when we were done, but the owner liked the primer painted plate and bolts so we decorative cut the ends of the steel plate and painted it. Looked like it was intentional from the start which is always a goal.
Flitch plates are very handy when you don’t want the hassle of an I beam.
@@thebullgator Yeah, saved me allot of work. I was surprised my Engineer never heard of it and didn't know how to do the math on one.
@@ellkir1521 Not enough jobsite experience for the engineer..
Went to school in the old country in Eastern Europe. We have specialized high schools, and for construction it was a pre engineering curriculum mixed in with architecture. One full day out of the week was visting jobsite around the city and doing reports. One full day was auto cad.. We need this system in the states so badly..
@@gueswhosthis agree with all above. fabulous job by the framers, though I'm terminally lazy, and finding the most effective, long-lasting, easiest to get done "fix" is always at the front of my mind. Still, getting it done right up front is always the best option. On the need for this in the states... if only... we'll have to get kids off social media and drugs long enough for them to see the value of a "real" job.
I was a residential carpenter there in Washington back in the 1980s during the building boom of the late 80s and 1990s. Standing behind your work shows alot of integrity and will go a long way for your brand....
Little bit of generosity goes along way Tim. Your company just got stronger.
I've lifted a ton of buildings. Next time use one jack. Buy a bigger one. They're cheap. You probably spent more on lumber to mess with two than the const of buying a big enough jack. You eventually figured out that the jack goes a the top. Ditch the metal plate. It's slippery. If you really want to avoid putting a divot into the LVL use a wooden plate. nail it to the beam and let the jack bite into it. Not slippery. One guy works the jack. Everyone else is out of the danger zone prepared to call EMS if necessary. There is absolutely no use for extra squishy humans in the danger zone.
Great job getting it done. Hope these tips help someone.
They would have been better using the proper tools like acro jacks, very cheap to hire and not insanely dangerous like building that contraption out of wood then using vehicle jacks.
@@schrodingerscat1863 totally agree. was fortunate to have seen some "old timers" raise a roof to remove a wall and make room for a cap concrete poor.. used their techniques forever after.. and that was back in the 70's.
Its like the guy with missing fingers telling us how to use a saw.
rookie moves, this is how people get hurt, i wouldnt show your jacking skill off
You can also get hydraulic jacks that have lines and an external pump so you can jack it up remotely.
Let's see now... you have been in business for a long time. You do the right thing even when you don't have to... you have been in business for a long time... I wonder if there is a connection there? Thanks for another video. By the way, that is a beautiful house you built.
Nope those two facts cannot be related to each other 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@AwesomeFramersYes, plenty of production builders that build crap day after day and have been in business for a LONG time as well. The difference is that your clients will hire you again and might even invite you to little Jimmy's graduation party.
That made me think of a different story, about getting the contracts.
Contractor: Why do you always offer the contract to us? Our rates at 50% higher than our competitors.
Customer: Yes, but they need twice as many hours....
I wish I could say I've never had a jack kick out. Even though I knew nobody got hurt, I tensed up watching the guys cranking on the jacks (well, only the first five time I saw it). Good job (and smart business) to take care of an issue outside normal warranty parameters. We all make mistakes, not everybody fixes them. Also, did my heart good seeing one of the crew going over the driveway with the magnet. If you'd spent several thousand dollars fixing the beam but the owner got a flat tire, that's the story he'd tell everyone who would listen.
Dog stepping on a nail is the one that got me. In my defense, I informed her not to let the dogs out back that night because we hadn't done a thorough job of clearing the yard of debris, but she put them out. I never put it in writing and I didn't block her door, so my insurance just ate it.
I'm sure she tells anyone who will listen about her dog having to go to the vet because of a nail in the foot.
I disagree somewhat that it shouldn't fall on the engineer on record. It is his responsibility to double check the architectural design and ensure that it will work with the point loads that are there. But it is a little bit on the architect as well. It shouldn't however be on your company Tim. As a contractor too, as long as we build according to the plan, we can't know what beams will be sufficient in place. This is why we need to be sure to build exactly to the drawings so it doesn't fall back on us..... I do like your videos and content and the way you execute them!! Keep em' coming, CHEERS!
When that registered engineer signs the docs he/she acquires structural integrity.
No engineer was involved until now. The plan was submitted "prescriptive"
No engineer made a mistake. As I stated in the video, the draftsman undersized the beam and no one caught it.
@@AwesomeFramers It's not really the plan reviewers responsibility to catch engineering mistakes. Sometimes they do, but if they don't it's not their obligation. Draftsman have no responsibility at all for sizing members. The owner/builder probably didn't specify engineering design criteria and code minimums are laughable and this beam probably meets those anyway. I am a structural eningieer and a contractor and I don't do the engineering on my own projects because there is so little money involved with having someone else do it. I do specify performance and review their calcs, but I am not the engineer of record on our projects. Curious if this fix was engineered and "wet stamped"?
@@AwesomeFramers A draftsman is not an engineer. Are you saying you didn't have an engineer? If you did, it's still his responsibility.
Quick tip that I learned from our concrete guy while remodeling a flip house: Set the post on the flat surface (garage floor) and put your bottle jack ON TOP of the post. The post becomes a wide safe base for the bottle jack and all the action is happening up top. Far less likely to slip out like that. Edit: Just realized that you figured that out later in the video. thanks for this upload yall!
Can also nail on a skirt that will encase the jack and prevent it from kicking out. It's dangerous to jack something up when the jacks and posts aren't plumb and the mating surfaces flat.
Another tip is to nail the post on at the top. You add a scrap of lumber to nail it to.
Whenever you are using two post, one after the other, you have potential for buckling. You either reinforce the joint to not have a hinge point, or stabilize laterally the joint like they do in this video. Having the jack on top or below doesn't change anything. Be careful or call someone who knows what he's doing.
I dont care if you are responsible to fix it,, the fact that you did regardless of this shows integrity. Thats worth more than $$$
The mentioned pivot point’ issue. I’m old Sokol here.take it for what it is or isn’t.all the jobs I had to do similar work. I use the large screw jacks. The face is around 5” compared to a hydraulic jack with a 1 1/2” face of the jack piston. I also use a piece of sheet steel to distribute that downward pressure over a larger square ft area. Great video and process of analysis. Thank you for sharing.
I rented screw jacks, very safe & lots of control over jacking speed & height. Two days for your crew, engineering, materials plus a bunch of figuring on your part. Not a small repair for a home owner. Good on you for making it right 👍
Screw jacks are the only simple , safe and effective method.
I own a pair use them every couple of years , well worth it.
Been there done that. Use the right tool for the job.
Spread the money loaded costs or go figure
What this video shows us is that it is far, far, far better, easier and less costly to overbuild load bearing beams than it is to rectify problems later. Sandwiching a continuous layer of quarter inch plate steel all of the way across the span between the load bearing joists and screwing bolts through the wood beams and the steel plate to tightly sandwich the wood beams and plate steel together would have prevented sagging when it was first built. It is always a Good Lesson when we learn from our mistakes and do not repeat them.
Blown away that you guys went back and fixed that! In the UK you’d get one phone call to the builder and you’d never hear back from them… EVER!
UK doesn't exist.
It's called Islamabad
This is how a good business should operate, outstanding
They almost killed a worker fixing a mistake the wrong way with no effort to figure out safety before taking action. Admirable to show off that process, not necessarily to to it in the first place.
20 +years to get a good reputation one day to get a bad reputation. Absolutely did the right thing. Cool video
This video came across my feed and was the first of yours that i have watched.
Several observations:
1. Awesome humor
2. Committed to quality work
3. More committed to excellent reputation
4. Not a finger pointer, passing blame (seem willing to own mistakes and/or absorb blame even if not your personal mistake)
5. That's all about good character
Wish you were in Arkansas. You would be my go to.
Thanks
Well said. Also my first recommendation to this channel, that I know of. Liked and subscribed.
@shepgre awesome review I must admit. I have been in the construction business for 35 years and I am all of what you stated. They were in except for number 4 I find it very difficult too withhold the blame when it is somebody else's fault. I find it very difficult to retire now that I have turned sixty four I am still turning tricks for my customers. Although I do believe I am going to finally dissolve benji's custom home improvements company as I haveffectively began handicap ramps and rails incorporate.. I just wish I could get these people to pay me what i'm worth.
This shows how much integrity you have! You did the right thing even though you didnt have too. It was a simple fix and didnt put you out much. Good job as always.
Youd be surprised how many builders would just walk and block the homeowners number.
I work on the design side.....this issue is 100% on the engineer. The designer / architect...designed the span and showed "a" beam. But it was up to the engineer to do the load calcs. He-she knew the span, knew the load and did the final calculations.
Man I wish I'd known about you when we started our build. Huge integrity. I will definitely send anyone that's looking your way.
You should call this episode "Wise Decisions come from Wise Guys" lol but seriously a good move and way less stressful than defending your business in a lawsuit or arbitration hearing regardless of being right. Shows your integrity as builder and as a person and goes a long ways in a community you do lots of work in. Cheers
The takeaway is your integrity; you mentioned that you have your name on enough of the houses in the nieghb', let alone making it worse by trying to say it's not your responsibility via lawyering. You make it right, and there's no story for people to tell about Pioneer except that they heed the call back. It's a good business lesson, thanks.
Glad to hear you can still build prescriptive in some instances, i did one spec back in 2008 this way that turned out fine but glad to hear you took care of it for the Company sake.
We have a Rural Residential code that allows for Residential structures to be built without Engineering as long as the owner lives in the home I believe 3yrs. Minimum and your not allowed to rent it, but i tend to oversize situations like this and generally tell the clients that they may save more in materials than the cost of Engineering and they will have piece of mind.
Kudos, from a long time builder turned Draftsman! Great content!
20 ft span...full kitchen... ext wall w/floor / 2 stories , wall above/rafter load..granite kitchen counter..
USE STEEL...ADD A SAFETY /OVER LOAD FACTOR...?
Flitch , angle......OR a steel post alternstive
Not a builder or engineer, but that sure makes sense to use a steel structure in key parts of the structure.
meal or wood, it doesn't really matter so long as it engineered properly. metal I beams can have more deflection at times than a thick paralams.
It would have been steel to begin with here in UK
I have seen an entire house rack out of shape using this method. At some point the wall and floor above is going release an enormous amount tension. Cracks, window shatter and possibly a countertop failure. Sorry, not impressed.
exactly, steel beam, T type
Wish I could find contractors/builders like AwesomeFramers in So Calif! Even on $3M-$4M houses, construction is often shoddy and cuts corners. The emphasis always seems to be on cosmetic surfaces and finishes to "look expensive", not the underlying construction & mechanical quality -- because that can't be immediately detected.
You're watching the wrong videos. Watch "That Ain't Right" and you might be grateful for what you got.
(I was admiring the sweep propped on the garage wall... and then seeing it used at the end.)
I’m in So Cal and I value integrity and honor greatly! We do exist, but the general atmosphere of cynicism and dishonesty prevail such that we don’t get hired because we charge a fair price instead of lowballing every bid and then have to butcher the job to stay in business.
8:08 Every carpenter I know has had this happen at some point.
Not-so-pro tip...use an adjustable steel jack post as a progress capture.
You guys are the best
Whew
Tim it shows that your company too include your great brother are men that treat others as you would like to be treated ! Just really impressed you guys took the high road ! Not surprised! But impressed !
Excellent work and act of integrity sharing a mistake, lesson learned and the final repair.
Where is the integrity here ? He made a movie out of this to promote his company and made a buck off of RUclips
@@andreycham4797those aren’t mutually exclusive. Integrity is technically defined as “the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles.” Fixing an issue that he isn’t required to fix legally (that’s the moral principles in case you missed it) and admitting that he and his company made mistakes in missing the proper sizing of the beam and fixing it at his expense IS a sign of integrity. Posting on RUclips “to make a buck” has zero to do with it and is an example of being honest about making the mistake. So it’s integrity times two.
@@andreycham4797 you get pennies from YT for videos...LOL
The marketing value of backing your work would be priceless. Sometimes you have to give away a nickel to make a dime.
good for you guys
just framed a garage with a remodel on a 3 story house with 2 huge beams in the garage supporting a corner 20ft each way on sandy soil on beach in so cal
throughout my time as a builder and remodeler Ive had to fix quite a few things some my fault others not.....its just good business practice
Great video. I applaud how you stand by your work, in this case, a mistake made by someone else. I've had three instances where a contractor simply walked away from problems they were hired to fix and didn't fix, including problems that that they created. Nice fix. (You can do without 17:25 through 20:15. No idea what you're talking about)
I might guess that the engineer may have used a deflection limit of l/360 which is about 3/4” for. 22’ span. Possibly a cambered beam to begin with may have worked better to mitigate it in hindsight. Wonder if your solution will again deflect but I would estimate about a 25% improvement, so about a half inch which is about l/480. A pretty good result. Enjoyed your video , thanks.
Depends on the business law incorporated. If it's not required by law, the no you're not liable. But, as a builder, we do want our stamp on projects to continue being a positive image. These are non-tangible brand assets associated. Contract's with warranties inform the buyer of if things arise. Outside of it, one may not be required by law, but overall product quality vs lawsuits and other factors, it would be simpler to fix anything that may arise, due to our engineerings. "Always Buy Local" Great work guys 👏🏾🔨
The way your man was positioned behind both those jacks pumping them up was damned scarry. Never would I in a million years put myself in that position. Lucky no injury. Imagine having that beam land on your head or shoulder. We jacked up the ceiling beam in our living room, reinforced after realigning and putting two 1/4 inch steel plates secured with 24 lag bolts either side. Like your work ethic!!!
I wonder about the thought process of the different parties involved here. Do I have it right that the 3/4" deflection is not a structural issue, the beam is strong enough, as is?
First, I'm amazed an inspector noticed it and I'd be curious as to how he wrote it up. Somewhere between "slight deflection in beam, within tolerances" and "Dangerous sagging in beam, potential failure"
Second: How did the homeowner understand what the inspector wrote? I've had homeowners very concerned that a 1/8" check in a 6x6 column was going to cause a catastrophe.
I wonder if the homeowner understood that it's not a structural issue.
Was there any damage to the interior finishes above from the movement? When that jack kicked out that was my first thought.
Great questions. Beam was at its limit when checked by our engineer this month (he is not the EOR for this project). The owner as having some remodeling done and THAT inspector noticed the sag. Owner reached out to us, I drove over there, took some measurements and got our engineer involved.
It's good to see both. Talking head shows the thought process and how you're functionally solving the problems. Learning different stuff not a HGTV 30 minute build without the real information.
Kudos for being a quality builder who stands behind his work!
My solution would have been to tack a steel plate 3/8”x6”x22’-0” to the underside of the span. Jack at mid span. Then screw the plate into the bottom flange of your timber beam. Screw spacing, size, and depth would require design and prefabbed into plate. Maybe add some plywood sheathing to the vertical surface of the beam.
Bought two from Amazon, always buy local 😂. Love the humor!
Amazon is based in Washington, so he did technically buy local 😂
@@scooter9023 I know, that’s why I find it so funny.
Warehouse distribution center is probably local?
Was just thinking you should slot the pipes out, and then you did exactly that. This was fun to watch. Thanks for sharing, warts and all.
"It was under-designed by the draftsman..."
Sorry? Maybe I don't understand what a "draftsman" is, but isn't it an architect or an engineer who designs structures?
"Draftsman" was a term used decades ago when design was done with a pencil and a "drafting board" hence the term "dratfsman". They are typically not engineers and not architects either. Their expertise is taking architectural and engineering information and putting it all on a piece of paper that effectively communicates the intentions of the architect and engineer to the builder.
In this particluar scenario the "draftsman" may have created the plans for the house but they certainly did not size all the beams and structure. That was done by the engineer. The "draftsman" just modelled all that in CAD.
As a builder I know how hard it is to find some good faithful guys. Be thankful that you got guys who help you be the best you can be. They all want top dollar with the knowledge of a guy who wonders what lineal means.
Agree, good for you in making the effort to fix it.
However, I have a gut feeling that simply adding one more lvl over a 20 ft span is not going to be enough extra strength to prevent a substantial amount of sag from recurring. And now you also have the three original lvls that have been deflected over a long period of time and even if they had no load, would probably retain a bit of sag just from that stress so you're working against that as well with just one additional member.
It would have been very interesting to see what the sag was after your upgrade. I think a structural engineer should have been hired to spec a beefy enough solution. I'd sure hate to see you have to come back again after all this, but good luck, I hope it works!
36” wooden wedges driven under the temp. Supports, a 3lb sledge hammer to drive em . Bottle jacks are “dangerous” in this situation. Wedges and clamps are every carpenters friend. 40 years of experience, tips and tricks.
I've done that "jack" trick more than once on sagging beams in old buildings . . . and it's always a little leery ! Good Job ! Great Vid !
I noticed that after you were done and took out the post, that you didn't double check to see if the sag came back. I'll bet it did somewhat, but not as much as it was. A better approach would have been to glue the extra piece on along with screwing it, then there wouldn't have been any sag because glue doesn't give like screws do in the wood fibers. The best remedy would have been to "over jack" the beam by about 1/4 inch and then make the fix. My guess would be that you started with a 3/4 sag, ended with a 1/2 sag, but if you would have glued it, you would have ended up with a 1/4 sag, and if you over jacked it, you may end up with no sag at all.
Agree.
I suppose a post-tension cable system could have been designed, if the sag is now that large of an issue.
Agree completely with your comment. The load is now on the repair beam.
Ha! I made the exact same suggestion like couple minutes ago in a post. It just seemed like the smart thing to do, but I didn't suggest over jacking which I think is an even better idea. Some sort of structural glue like a PL or something.
You guys are awesome taking your responsibility further than required.
Back in my day I would of stood there on a stack of news papers holding it up myself with good ol' fashioned elbow grease for as long as necessary to get the job done. You kids got it so easy these days.
Your videos are always very knowledgeable and fun to watch ! Keep up the great work!
Our Structural Engineer is very much of the opinion that you cannot beat steel for large spans like this. I was leaning on him pretty hard last year in an effort to eliminate steel from a proposed design and the required volume of engineered timber to carry the same loads ended up being cost prohibitive compared to steel. Curious about the role your draftsman plays in this? Here a draftsman would fairly strictly be drawing what was prescribed by the structural engineer but you seem to suggest the draftsman in this case was being retrospectively peer reviewed by the engineer which seems a bit backwards......? Regardless, as everyone is saying, kudos for taking this responsibility when you technically didn't have to!!!!
The Engineer is in charge and is responsible for design . The Engineer does the designing. The draftsman does the drawing. It is the Engineer responsibility to check the draftsman's work. If the Engineer missed the draftsman's error it is the Engineer's error. This seems like the Engineer not taking responsibility for his work and passing the blame to the lowest paid individual.
The cost comparison of volume of engineered wood versus steel is a great comment, I would would prefer steel for this span, and the top comment mentions a similar remediation using steel plate reinforcement of wood beam.
@@groverw7507 Yeah, a flitch plate in addition to the extra ply of LVL would be belt and braces for sure….!
Yes that is what i was thinking and if you need more strength bring a welder in as a welder myself i have done this for builders many times.
Even steel sags
Glad you stepped up and fixed it. Your solution is fine, but I would have looked at placing that beam ABOVE the existing outside beam by removing some siding and sheathing. By placing it above and tying it in with truss ties to make double-height beam, it would have been considerably stronger. Also once a beam (even and enginerred one) sags it always wants to fall back into that sag and pull your new beam with it. I would have jacked it up with a slight crown past level before tying in the new beam. Just my thought after doing this for 30 years
It all falls on the engineers' shoulders. They are the one's who hold the responsibility.. That's exactly why nothing can be done without the engineers stamp of approval. His only job is to check the specs of situations like this and be sure that it's not under built.. Now usually LVL's in cases like this, are required to be glued and screwed together at a specific interval, (such as 4 screws high spaced every 8 inches, etc.); which should be listed in the detailed blueprints. And if it's not there, you should always double check with the engineer or at the very least, check with the lumber yard as to recommended spans... You guys may have just installed it wrong; sometimes it actually calls for lag bolts. But again, the engineer should have specified. Whenever I had questionable spans like this, I always got something in writing from the engineer.. even if just a text message.. I always made sure to know exactly what was called for and how it should be installed; and typically we would just over build it. So it called for 16" LVL's.. I would just order 18" LVL's to be sure. The customer was always happy to know that it's over spec. They aren't worried about saving a few hundred dollars on a beam.. Just build it over spec and they will be happy campers.
Youre talking rss screws right? Not just regular construction screws.
We always build any headers overspec too. Just easier to do. No worries.
The engineer does not make the drawing, the engineer gives the specification, the draft man makes the blueprint. In real life it doesn't fall on them.
@@gabemillee3726 Wrong.. The Architect makes the drawing first and then it's up to the engineer to make it happen. They have to "engineer" the drawing and stamp their approval on exactly how it should be built. I built houses for over a decade and have had many meetings with both of them in the room. The engineer has final say on what materials to use and what size, etc.. that's literally his only job. He's the math nerd that tells everyone what has to be used.
@@gabemillee3726 The architect just draws a line across the page and says "I want a beam across here"-- and his job is done. Now the Engineer has to calculate all the weight loads above that area and spec out the size and spans, etc.. Then the framer just builds it to that spec. Again, no one can do anything without the ENGINEER's approval. They have to literally stamp the print, which is a legally binding agreement that he is responsible if they build it to HIS SPEC and it still fails... That's why it costs so much to get that engineer's stamp, because he's taking on a lot of responsibility and liability. So it's not cheap.
That was a FANTASTIC non-edited non-click-bait thumbnail! 👏👏👏
Should’ve used the steel plate all the way across or it should’ve been a steel I-beam at the very beginning of construction. Also, I’d like to see how much the deflection was after the post was removed.
Anyhow, I think you guys stepped up and did the right thing. Great work. 👍
Where I live you wouldn't be allowed to do that span in timber. Steel beam only.
In order of decreasing commonality…
• Making mistakes
• Identifying mistakes
• Owning mistakes
• Fixing mistakes
I am thinking you have could be customers hanging on the fence with your proposals , if they watch this video , you may just snag a couple .......would or will be custormers....good business and a good fix, I wonder though, could the beam have had a slight crown and it just got turned down when you framed the house,even though you are always watching for crowns in most dimensional lumber , we get spoiled on engineered beams being straight but now and then I have found one with a small crown. Also , many of my larger jobs that had long spans of 40 to 50 ft ,the manufacturer of the beams and girders had made them with crowns in them because the load going on them was heavy enough to level them out, it was amazing to see such beams deflect as much as some have. I have spent a life time of problem solving as they come and as you know, its part of it on restoration work , its great that you did this video to show thinking that may be outside the box, keep em coming , stay safe .
I've spent 10 yrs repairing, rebuilding, restructuring, lifting leveling squaring up my 100 yr old historic home. I also used to do building moving rigging etc with mobile offices and buildings.
Next time, build concrete block piers and use 20ton jacks with white oak load spreaders. Way easier and safer to manage for lifting, and I've iut 10 beams in my home using this method
Interesting to watch how different building techniques are used around the world.
In Norway, I think it's more common to use gluelam beam than LVL/LSL for heavy beams.
For joists, it's fairly common to use I-joists with OSB core.
For the temporary support column, I think it is a nice idea to use a pair of wedges under the column.
Use (maybe 10" of 2x6, cut it diagonally, and you easily have 3/8" adjustment, adjustment, and still 6x6 support surface.
When you install it, your cut only need to be approximately, because you can make it exact with the wedges.
When you remove it, you just remove the screws that kept it from moving, then knock the wedges out from under it.
(No need to use the saw to cut it)
The work you will gain by doing the right thing will more than pay for the time and materials you use. Plus you can sleep well knowing you did the right thing. I wish more people had your attitude.
Nicely done. 32:12 As far as cutting that column: I wonder if cutting it from both sides at 45 degree downward angle would allow it to slide out. I suspect it would probably just bind the blade at the last second. maybe if you cut one side, then shimmed the kerf then cut the other side.
Nice fix. I've caught a few undersized beams on engineered plans. Recently on a project the engineer spec'd a double 2x10 when it should've been a triple 2x10. I only caught it because I was recently into the header span tables for another project and remembered how far a double 2x10 could span. He apparently had it spec'd for 50 psf snow load when we were in a 70 psf area.
The builder has the responsibility to do a job according to code no matter how it’s drawn on the plans. It literally says as much on any set of actual plans. As an electrician I can’t put a meter can on the roof just because it was drawn that way.
I thought you were going to leave central support! -- OMG you guys went to town on this ! Thank God for Rain.
I've been a structural ironworker for 24 years and I was flinching when you guys were jacking that up initially especially with the one guys head in between the jack posts.
But I wonder why you would choose an engineered wood product for such a span to begin with. Why not steel? Or even a flitch beam would've been superior to all that mess.
If you'd like an inhouse iron guy I'd consider relocating now that I'm divorced. Lol.
"Why not steel? Or even a flitch beam would've been superior to all that mess." ~~ Both would have sagged just the same and there is nothing wrong with that!
Technically your company didn’t have to do anything, but good on you to protect your reputation. A flitch beam option would likely have helped with the defection but would be costly. Pro-tip: jack up the ends of the new beam to its final location instead of “beating” it up. I installed many of these beams solo and have had to find ways to complete the job.
Respect, enige wat ik kan zeggen.
Veel overtredingen zijn dweilen met de kraan open, het grootste gebrek aan respecteren van je rijbewijs en omgeving.
I see a 6x14 laying on a driveway that slopes away from the garage. The jack, itself, isn't pointing at the subject beam, but at a point in front of the garage. A guaranteed failure, if it is unrestrained. Also, the rigidity of the building, will only allow the beam to rise in the middle, if the many fasteners bend slightly to allow for the shear strength of the sheathing and interior drywall or, if said panels buckle. Sorry, for my lack of eloquence. Physics and geometry always win. Nice show, by the way.
As a rule a good structural crew doesn't have to do remediation like this therefore the lack of knowledge on jacking up this kind of load
Im taking notes on the process
Great effort
I have found that performing this kind of repair with a 3 ton floor jack allows you to save the energy you would use pounding it in. Really saves you for the end of the day push.
Cool -- i recently jacked up the center of my ~3 story post & beam Victorian, fitted LVLs & posts, on custom lally columns & footers on ledge in the basement. 4 jack points. ALONE. Love your vids, worked for a guy like you in CA when i was 20.
Thank you for taking responsibility for your oversight and fixing it even though you were not "legally" responsible. Did you eat the costs, bill the owner, or charge back to the architects?
You know you were doing it wrong. Why didn't you put the jacks at the top to start with? Because it was to much work?
Was there any cracking or symptoms of the sag in the building above? Cracked plaster, windows, misaligned doors, cracked granite, new gaps?
If the problem had not been spotted, could it have lead to a failure?
Deconstructing joists. What a fix.
On an outdoor patio cover I used #4 rebar epoxied in a 1/2" wide , 1/2" deep grove with structural epoxy to reinforce the bottom of a sagging beam due to a knot. When I let down the jack the next day the sag was gone.
At least $600 for a plumber to move a couple of pvc pipes. I am an electrician, and if one of the regular builders i work for had an issue like this, I would help them out for a crate of beer. It's like 10 minutes of work. Crazy.
Maybe the plumber doesn't indulge in alcohol and runs a proper shop
Spent my whole life in the Building Trades really brings back memories Some bad but mostly good .In my 70s now ., Good follow up guys . Those A frame steps are different ,I had bought steps with flat steps on both sides of the ladder 250 dollars back in the day .
When engineers and architects come together to bring you joy and everlasting happiness.
41 years in the 🔨🔨business - Thank you for doing the right thing. Small cost in the scope of life 😊
I don’t like beam deflection in residential projects but it happens on engineered beams. On one job I added shear plywood to the beam and wall above after jacking it to straight. After removing the Jack it remained dead straight.
The new tripple hammer bolt is sweet👌
The allowable deflection, which is designed in is span/360, but with timber, because it is a natural material that moves as it dries, larger deflections are commonplace. I worked on a historic building where the 14" x 12" oak beams over the dining hall took on a sag of 12" over a span of 30ft that was mostly due to self weight. In mitigation they were 350 years old! These beams were then supported by the steel frame for the new roof over and there followed a delicate exercise of pulling up the beams to only take off the load (and no more) on them.
You should install squash blocks on the wood I beams for the temp wall. Also you can use screw jacks on the beam and the temp wall to take the load of the floor system off the beam and spread the load across the slab. A point load without a footing underneath the slab can punch shear through or crack the slab.
Flitch plate would also be something to consider for the beam.
One post jacks up, the other has wedges taking up slack as a securing system if the jacking post deviates from vertical axis. In some cases acro-props can be the secondary.
You guys did the right thing, and I’m sure that you’ll be rewarded in other ways going forward.
That aside, I think that you’re covering for the engineer, after all he designed it.
To eliminate sag completely, a steel I beam probably should’ve been used?
They make some ridiculously tall LVLs now. Clearance has to be taken into consideration too. As a 42 year construction worker with 22 years as a licensed contractor, when things got changed during the build, a structural engineer should have ciphered that load. I, myself, wouldn't have thought that much deflection would have taken place on a triple...what...16"? The kitchen MIGHT have made me pause for thought, not too sure about that either. Good ol' hindsight!! 🤪
As far as we know the guy who invented the A-frame support system died about 7000-9000 years ago. It is known the ancient Egyptians used them very early into things. Of course it took till the Ancient Greeks about 2500 years ago to completely explain and prove mathematically why it works.
Good people make the world go around. Nice fix!
A testament to your channel's name! Good job :-)
"Pump it up, Chris!"
"I'm about to!"
"Pump it up, Chris!"
"That's what I was born to do!"
My friend lost a couple of front teeth when a bottle jack kicked out on him, and it could have been a lot worse. Be careful out there, folks. Nice job! That Kyle is a smart guy!
Norm was the King of weekend update, buddy!
Once you change the design you're responsible for it. Regardless if it was wrong in the first place. I would suggest that that still will sag over in the next year or so It needs to be steel
Even you said that your team missed this flaw. A twenty foot span is very long with that kind of load above it. Anything over ten feet should require steel instead of glued wood.
Even steel will sag
Thanks for being an upstanding contractor.
I can't believe y'all tried to jack that up that way. We ALWAYS in the old mobile home days put the jack closest to the item to move. ALWAYS
"Under-designed by the drafter" is not a sufficient explanation for the error. It was foolish to continue jacking when you found 1/4" out of plumb, while the other worker said it was close to plumb when he began.
Possible RCA:
Beam was designed without camber.
Beam was built with a defect.
Beam was installed with camber down.
Structural engineer did not use correct live load calcs.
Structural engineer used incorrect calc tables to determine beam size.
Agree beam was undersized for a perimeter wall.
My opinion from San Francisco California.
Taking that post out, I was thinking that is a place for the electric chain saw. However, why you did not use jack posts from the get go is beyond me.
Very honorable of you! So what is the best way to size a beam? Maybe you mentioned it in a video before?
Have an engineer do it 👍
Timmy and crew true Maestros, like the name says Awesome framers. Thanks for Sharing...
Just a tip: I think you missed the opportunity here to show us the amount of sag with a laserline en afterwards in the same way proving you fixed it. There is no way of telling that you did after you took away the 6x6...
That 6x6 was under a lot of load.....
The problem with hydraulic jacks is that almost always will leak down . I had similar problem an used a steel screw jack. It was my own house so I could raise it in increments over about a week. I actually raised about 3/8" high, bolted a 1/2' x 12" x18 foot steel plate to the double LVL header with 24 1/2" grade 8 bolts thru bolted to the LVLs on16" centers. It eventually settled down to almost level, about 1/8" high.
Forgot to put some adhesive glue in those hangers to prevent from potential squeaking.
I didn't forget, I find adhesive to be a waste of time.
@@AwesomeFramers Please explain.
@@tonymers Sure, the hangers require a wipe down for paints and glues to adhere. A properly installed hanger doesn't squeak. Putting a dab of glue in the saddle doesn't do any good since the weight of the member supported will always be pushing towards the ground. I used to glue them, then realized if I just did a good job installing, I could skip that step as unnecessary. That was in the early 2000's. We have been building in the same communities since the middle 1980's and live in those communities. We'd hear if they squeak.
That was a pretty slick repair.