That is why corporations and Unions are always bad they are only incentivized to care about their bottom lines and share holders and do nothing for average consumers. We need small Enterprises and a lot of competetion.
@@Krishna-pt3yu You have a really serious misunderstanding of Unions. Are there bad unions that abuse their position? Absofuckinglutely but don't forget that most unions work very hard to protect its members from corporate exploitation. Edit: I say 'most', but maybe 'many' is a fairer way to say it.
@@Krishna-pt3yuunions in the states got a bad reputation because of the State letting mafia taking them over. Union are supposed to be company's. Union in Europe do good job in Collective Bargaining Deal. Even if the employee who buy workforce is good, a deal is the bair minimum so if the CEO goes bad he can't take steps back, like Elon.
@@vidyajamesuIndeed, this mindset is unsanitary and immature. A lot of competition? How will you incentivize it when the huge corporations have solidified power? Best you can do is to innovate in other sectors and also hold the giants accountable via the government. Good unions also hold the companies accountable so that the workers don't get treated like slaves. And even then, it's not secure that good unions last. If the company isn't seeing max profits while a union exists, then the shareholders will replace the CEO with another that is anti-union and bust it up.
The Proton Corporation is owned by the nonprofit Proton Foundation, which has a very explicit charter detailing their values of freedom and democracy and security and privacy for the internet. And that nonprofit is incorporated in a country that legally enforces its charter so that it will be forced forever to act in accordance with its stated goals and intentions.
About the French activist: He used the normal webpage for the email, which is why Proton had to give his IP address to the authorities. Proton does operate a TOR service, where you can access your email without your IP address being exposed, so if he would have used that, the authorities would be left empty-handed. Furthermore, Proton's yearly transparency report does state how many government requests they received, how many they contested, and how many they ultimately complied with. You cannot operate a company in a western country without abiding the law, but I think in this regard, Proton is as good as it gets.
You cannot operate a company *anywhere* without being at a whim of whatever country you're running it from. And if you want to (legally) accept money, you always have to do that.
THere's been others caught by leaving a recovery email that then leads to another service they can obtain information from, eg: using a GMail as your recovery or a phone number. This generally doesn't bother general users like the majority. But if you are an activist or posting things that can likely get you into trouble, such as whistleblowing, you should really be looking into how to create complete new online identities and not be using that hardware or your home network for anything else.
To add to this. Proton has published a statement back then, when this "drama" happened, that this French activist was also informed that his activity must be logged by court order and he still continued as if nothing happened. Obviously felt too save or had a wrong idea of being invincible. So in my book the only one who has to be blamed is the French guy and nobody else.
ProtonMail does also work with other encrypted mail services which use PGP or where the user themselves sets up PGP, so this isn't a closed eco-system.
@@BillAnt It's not about the handshake, you encrypt message contents in your mail client, and you can do that with Google, too. But they still get to see the metadata (and subject!).
@@amunak_ - Rest assured they have using a PGP plug-in, but not much their can do about it. Through as you said, their still know the sender/recipient and subject which is valuable for ad purposes.
There are a lot of claims about Proton's marketing being misleading, but honestly I don't see it. If you actually read what they say instead of half-assidly skimming it and making nonsensical assumptions about what email has a protocol that's capable of doing, it's extremely clear what they mean.
Yea I always wished for Thunderbird to become a proper email provider, but Mozilla tried to axe it on multiple occasions instead. They don't even advertise the client on their website anymore. Also killed their passwords app, it's like they're evolving but backwards..
If the company turns evil or not, will depend on the businessmodel. If they can realize healthy growth without selling out on their values, we might have an actually 'good' company whose interest arent against the interests of their users.
Counterpoint: you can always realise more growth by opening up to the possibility of evil, so it’s ultimately up to the company’s leadership whether or not they keep to the path.
P.S. still don't ever trust them. As they get bigger, their greed will grow in proportion to their size. And with companies that wealthy, greed will always win.
@@Redmentoos Man that took a 180 real quick, but yeah, honestly I think some companies really can be trusted, but regardless it's still good practice for them to act in a way where you don't need to trust them to still have privacy whenever possible. For example: Mullvad, I trust that they aren't gonna spy on me, but it's still really good that they operate in a way where even if they did want to spy on me it would be very difficult
First of all they leaked personal data of an activist from France 3y ago towards the swiss authorities think again they are just the same as Google and other tech companies
Proton has been surrounded by some controversy, but a channel called "Default" made a pretty good video talking about that. In short - it's 100% fine to use for the privacy aware, you just need to remember that email as a technology wasn't designed with privacy and security in mind and you should use other, more secure forms of communication if it's necessary.
I am not sure why there are so many negative comments here. Of course, we have to see what happens in the future and if Proton stays as ethical as it seems right now, but I am quite excited that there appears to be a company that tries to build a eco-system of so many different useful features in a privacy focused way. We can always complain when it goes the wrong way and discontinue using it but for now let´s cheer it up and support it!
Yes. Thank you. They actively lobby the government to enforce freedoms and privacy. So hopefully that government will continue to hold them accountable.
A lot of people seem to thing the downfall of such a company is inevitable. I think it all comes down to the intention. If the company structure makes it impossible to deviate from the original values, then we have a good basis.
@@andrijnovak6367 I don't think its quite as much the lack of trust in the company as it is today, but rather skepticism towards a heroic all-good company coming to the rescue. It sounds too good to be true. But for as long as the foundation controls the company and stays true to it's mission, I prefer supporting them than any other alternative.
I'm actively a fan of Google products and their usage of and view of AI Etc, and I've also been using Proton for over 5 years least. I cheer it on and support it. I also think it's a very distant 2nd in being decent software and I really think Google nails it a LOT of the time. Hell, the pixel phone is the first phone I've actually loved. And I don't use a single thing from Proton except for mall, and even that, I only use a little. The rest is very very meh. We need them and they are good but damn, they have a ways to go.
I never understood the issue when Proton handed over their users IPs to the authorities being controversial. They initially didn't comply which caused such a huge issue that their government "had to" step in from my understanding. I'd trust them more for that than other companies that would've handed user information to the authorities without any resistance.
Well they do also offer a VPN service with a pretty good free option now so as long as they don’t reveal the IP that’s concealing there is a pretty easy way to get around that issue at least.
In their terms, until that incident, they claimed such data wasn't logged. When it happened, they silently changed the ToS to cover that. So, basically, you can put very little trust in a company like Proton.
@@naervern2107 But the thing is that the data wasn't logged. They had to get the IP from a live connection. And it's quite difficult to not know the unobfuscated IP address of a person directly connected to you for communications.
the issue is that mozilla is a weird thing of a company, firefox is open source however the board of mozilla is not, which is why even though no users want ai, ai can make it into the main browser.
@@beefox__Plenty of users want AI in their browser... have you never even used it before? Why do you think ChatGPT is so popular among people? It's useful.
Zen Browser came out to push the needle and make Firefox better, and if things go haywire I believe that it, LibreWolf and Mullvad Browser can pick up where Mozilla would have left. Not to mention there is also Ladybird which is completely independent of Chromium, Firefox and WebKit.
3:22 Proton's solution in the meantime is you can send an "encrypted mail" to someone that actually sends a link to a note that they need a password to open. The note is email-formatted and doesn't leave their servers, so if you send the password via something like Signal then Google/Microsoft/Yahoo etc can't read your private emails to non-Proton users
*Consumers don't care about privacy*. Any service that focuses on privacy will never get beyond a niche service. Privacy is a feature that everyone says is important, but when it comes to actually spending money, it's not a priority.
Consumers don't care about privacy when they don't feel directly effected by it constantly being violated. They're used to not having it and forget it can be different
WE NEED PROTON MAPS!! just make OSM but with a good interface so i can ditch Gmaps and make it easy to suggest edits so the community can help it be better!!
@weekendwarrior3420 I think it's pretty naive to think that Garmin doesn't track users. Also, it's pretty bad use of money. Not only are the devices pretty bad but you already have devices that can do navigation. Most people have their previous phone, I don't understand why people aren't finding ways to use their old phones. There are several open source and privacy-friendly navigation apps for Android. If you run GrapheneOS then you're much better off privacy-wise than a Garmin product.
Openstreetmaps has sone good apps that makes it very easy to suggest edits. Also the osmand app is pretty good? Google will always be better, as using so much data from people, just makes searches faster. Also only google will have reviews and pictures. But osm is already better for finding specifics loke water or toilets, and for walking or biking. Which is crazy that an opensource thing does it better than a big giant company
I feel like we don't just need a good ecosystem from a company, we need a good ecosystem of companies. Like why not build proton mail support directly into thunderbird? Why not interoperate with other encrypted mail service providers?
Yeah, except this time, the corporation in question, as I've said in a bunch of other comments on this thread, is owned by a non-profit foundation with a very explicit charter, and that foundation in turn has been incorporated in a country that actually legally enforces non-profit charters, such that it can't just change its mind and start doing something else.
Companies aren't inherently evil but it's always about profit. Sometimes they have to do something evil to get more profit and sometimes they have to do more good.
Proton user here. The company has been expanding into a lot of different products lately and there are still a bunch of basic things (like syncing contacts with mobile, calendar stuff, etc) that are missing. Performance of the email client compared to gmail and others is painfully slow. And their marketing posts are bs, they don't seem to be written by people aware of real privacy and security concepts. I don't think this is a "company you can actually like", it's perhaps the lesser of current evils.
As long as they don't get significant market share they won't be able to enshitify their services without using signficant amount of users. Just pray as a Proton user that they stay niche and don't become big and greedy. It's kind of messed up, but it's basically a law now that when your tech company is big enough you will eventually make your platform/service worse because you have the market power to do so without losing the userbase. So as a consumer you basically have to root against the success of the service so they stay hungry and bleeding edge.
It could definitly go either direction at this point. I hope they'll solidify the foundation's power over the coming years. Also I never trusted their VPN service. If you're paying for Proton Unlimited you might as well use it, but if you're not I would reccomend going for another VPN service right now.
I got to meet them in an type of event fair at EPFL in Lausanne when they launched a few years ago, I’ve been using them since then and I don’t regret it!
Proton is great but they need to work toward improving their current products rather than rolling out new ones. There’s a long list of feature requests from customers which have been unmet.
Unfortunately. That is why I cancelled my paid membership to one of their products because the app was just not finished in my opinion. Not sure why this is so because the bugs/feature requests are not that hard as it seems to me as a software developer.
I remember I first heard of proton mail a couple years ago when an investigative journalism podcast I was listening to said that listeners could send secure tips to their proton email - rather than an email of the media organisation. Cool that it has this potential, as others have pointed out being under the Proton Foundation with a clear ethical charter, and being open-source, means it will have at least some longevity.
As a proton user, I don't use all their services but the ones I do use I absolutely love. If I ever stop loving them I'll leave in a second. They have to earn my appreciation to keep getting my money.
This video is a complete nerd-out for me! I'm of pretty much identical views on Proton, and I'm glad to see them being recovered like this. By the way - valid points about ownership!
Its funny because I used simple email and standard notes before proton acquired them but I was using proton mail $5 plan . So over time as they expanded their ecosystem I was already a user of the apps they acquired
If you want a VPN, don't use whatever service the RUclipsr you're watching is shilling (most of which are owned by the same, dubious company) and get Proton VPN. If a RUclipsr is shilling it, there's almost always a better alternative available.
I wonder what’s the general consensus on Cloudflare WARP. It seems like another pretty good free VPN option. I was split between the two options but I like how WARP doesn’t require a login.
Even if proton get shittier over time and probably will, it cannot get too bad because there will be no difference compared to the other players. Also even if the privacy features are not perfect just the fact that is not one of the FAANGs and that we have a decent alternative that is always relying on paying and not on ads is a good thing.
I have been using Proton for several years and have an unlimited plan. My biggest fear is that this company will be swallowed up by some big US company, but then I will go somewhere else.
For those of us that just want a consumer level of privacy, I'm happy with my Proton Unlimited package. Like many others here though, the existing products (Android, in my case) do need better attention. The mail client is fine but the calendar needs a lot of work. I so want to use it, but it just lacks too many basics.
7 years ago, TechAlter put out a video, “Why enthusiast brands will betray you.” As much as I hope to be proven wrong, that video outlines why Proton is great for now, but once they get big enough…
Big fan of Proton, good pricing and it's permanent as long as you don't switch and great product that gest closer to Google by the week (the calendar is still not there yet though)
I'm a Proton user, even though they have issues -- I'm sticking to it. Not loving too many products too fast -- some of the core products need love (email, calendar app, etc).
One thing that should be noted is that, while they do open source their codes, they only show what they want to show so you cant really 100% say for sure that they are being truthful. Their vpn for example is using another open source vpn library like can we say for sure that their commercial vpn is also using that open source vpn library.
If you starts from all free, it is difficult to ask people to pay….. I have worked in similar scale company before. Private, profitable company, no VC money, selling product for global scales. It is much better to work in there than most places. The company is earning the $$$ most people will consider enough for life, not that much pressure come from management, no crazy deadline, smart people to work with and we can focus to improve the product. But things just become bad when it is sold to public traded company, management style change, smart people left, good people retired, and some evil people want to maximise the profit, hire bad people for less cost etc
Remember that you can always choose to do the right thing, even if it is harder to choose to do the right thing, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Maybe you are in a bad jurisdiction or whatnot, but implementing OpenPGP or S/MIME or both is a no brainer.
Proton is a great company, don't get me wrong. But true privacy is always in self hosting all of these services yourself. As well. You're the one in control of it. A good VPS is only about 5 bucks a month (depending on the provider). Or have control over the hardware as well, and self host it at home, for free. apart from electricity and internet.
And a VPS won't work as a VPN, because you'd be the only person using that VPS as a proxy and not only that, but Anyone watching any site you might want to disguise your visit to could easily take your VPS's IP address and trace it back to your account on whatever company like DigitalOcean or whatever you got the VPS from and from there get your PII trivially.
Of course self hosting gives you full control and has some benefits (but also disadvantages like not having a team of security experts checking your system). But most people just lack the skills to do so. My parents and grandparents would be incapable of doing something like this and I choose not to, just because I don't want to spend my time troubleshooting my own server. With mass surveillance we also need privacy for the masses.
@@tec4303 Self host is honestly, incredibly easy with software like "Yunohost". Just do a single command in ssh, and you're server is setup for you, with good security practices. Anybody can gain a skill, you just have a try.
So let me get this straight, I try to hide who I am, so I change the IP of my computer, which is tied to me, by routing my traffic through a virtual server which I also own, which is also tied to me? Even better, just put the VPN server in my own home so that it has the very same IP as my computer? Thank you so much, this is genius.
Don’t know if I agree, Martin. Having different providers for different services is actually a good thing. Ecosystems tie you to a single company way too much. Proton pushing for one so hard makes me not want to use their mail service anymore.
Ecosystems tends to be more convient and easier to use specially on mobile, sso with single credentials, less payment info to manage etc. I think it will attract more people than alienate.
I really don'y think they "push" you towards their ecosystem, you don't have to use it, it's just there to be convenient for people coming over from Google, Microsoft and Apple.
Indeed good to place eggs in different baskets, but bad for mass market adoption. If users are gonna be brain dead and follow the path of least resistance, then this is a good way to get them onboard. And for the rest of more privacy concious people, they still have that option. I pay gor proton for example, but I dont use all of the services I get, only a select few and use other services for the rest
I love what Proton stands for, but why do they have to be so expensive??? For 2TB storage per year in AUD, Google is $125, Mega is $165, Dropbox is $184, but proton is $285 for 1TB or 449 for 3TB
I’d love to use proton, but it’s way too expensive for me to justify it. I’m not saying the price isn’t fair, considering they only rely on income through subscriptions, but for me personally I just can’t spend that much on a mail suit.
My question after that video is: How? How did they manage to get a solid business model as an email provider that is only secure when communicating with other customers?
I love proton, they are not perfect and at times need some time to iron out things but they do try. Their possibly the most easy to use private service provider.
They are good enough for the normal person wanting to limit their reliance on Google/Apple/Whatever. Just don't rely entirely on the promise for privacy and security. Their apps are good enough for me, some functionality is missing, but still better than having lots of useless bloat.
proton can pay a small donation to signal and maybe incorporate a version of signal into proton for business video calls and p2p calls within their service. This increases the network effect for both the players.
Proton mail also allows you to send email with password instead of just plaintext to gmail or other unencrypted servers. This means other user just receive link with prompt to enter password (you have to tell them that password). This atleast mitigate the gmail automatically reading the email content.
Tbh Mental Outlaw is the other extreme of privacy discussion. His videos are too obsessed with privacy to your average internet user, may as well just get off the grid
The problem is that all of their apps are half baked. They don’t even have search in calendar on mobile or full text search for mail on mobile. It’s hard to attracts new users when their products are so limited. They need to stop launching new half-done products and focus on the existing ones.
I prefer private companies over public companies. Sure their financial Reports are not public but especially in the case for companies on the stock market, private companies don't have to grow so agressively and become hostile. It's "okay" to loose some money, especially in a ressesion (obviously always taking a loss is bad, but its not so "overly feared and problematic")
Proton's much better, but they do have many red flags, recently they rug pulled their own paying users, posting offers and saying that if you bought them, you would get premium features, and after a few weeks changed their ToS removing said features. Their official account made the comments so yeah.
I'm a big fan of Proton, too. Been using their email and VPN for more than a year now, and I'm very interested if they can offer a complete alternative to the Google-Microsoft-Apple ecosystem.
I have been thinking about switching from Google Workspace to Proton. But the 'ecosystem' is something that I find to be the biggest turnoff. Proton Mail is expensive because of the rest of the features. I have VPN, I have cloud storage, I have a password manager. I intend to keep using those, and not switch to the Proton features that are included. I don't care if its only a 1 euro discount... its the principle. This kind of behavior is not something that fits in my definition of consumer friendly. Also arbitrary limits like having 15 e-mail aliases in the unlimited plan... thats not unlimited and there is no reason to limit them on the highest tier subscription. So yea, I'll continue thinking about it for the forseeable future.
I hope Proton would go into web & email hosting. Also, cloud service for small businesses -- above what Gdrive offers but below what Azure and AWS typically service
I like Proton's products but they're also paywalling things like biometric auth on Proton Pass for desktop while moving to a nonprofit model. It's a mixed bag 🤷♀
Depends on who the owners are. Companies funded by VC money and publicly traded companies will squeeze every drop of good out of everything. However private companies owned by one or a few people will do what those people believe in. And they will survive enshittyfication as long as the owner is engaged. See Valve as an example.
Ah yes, a rare promising company is trying to go big and still has its values so let me call it a future evil instead of supporting (or even being neutral) That mentality won't help you bro
When he showed the gmail and protonmail logo side by side, I just then realised their logo seem completely opposite. I don't know if that's on purpose but protonmail's logo seems like it's made from the negative space of gmail's, almost. Like it's signaling that they are giving everything gmail isn't. Pretty interesting.
You mean at 2:50? They look nothing alike. Google is clearly a M, with multiple contrasting colours. Protonmail is a vague with very sharp corners and purple gradients.
Even if proton didn't do encryption between proton users, or didn't have open source client side code, or was just as bad as the other guys in every way, there's still a case for giving some of the resources to a third guy, rather than just continuing to contribute towards the empire of the first two...
I've tried to find out how Proton Scribe, the AI assistant, works and how "open" it is. It seems they are using Mistral AI, which basically says "we don't tell you where our training data is coming from" 😏. So, its very likely they use data that violates licenses and/or ToU agreements (just as everybody else btw).
I work with Proton, and I'm a privacy activist for all. The work we do is genuinely beneficial for the world, to counteract big mass surveillance big tech corporations. We provide privacy by default technologies. I have sign up referrals if interested. All my profits go to genuine clean sustainable foundations too.
@@AdmiralSP Not ethical. But since we're on the subject of reaching the masses, they are right now, but that may end soon. Google isn't allowed to pay browsers to make them the default search engine anymore and that payment made up something like 90% of mozilla's annual income, so they may cease to exist in a year.
@@bandito241 they sell your information just like google does, they use it to advertise to you just like google does, there was a person who was supposed to be the next ceo of mozilla who get fired for taking medical leave to treat his cancer in a very sneaky and illegal way, they take the money that gets donated to the mozilla foundation and spend it on weird AI things instead of paying firefox developers, they've added new ways to track you and steal your information in recent versions of firefox, etc., etc., etc.
unfortunately as the past 20 years or so have shown us, anything that you don't host yourself that claims to be something like this is essentially a honey pot,.in a long enough time line anyway. especially a company that consolidates several sensitive products into one account.
I ended up choosing Tuta instead, for very small reasons like pricing model and specific features I wanted. Do you have thoughts about Tuta? Might it be worth a video?
A part of Proton AG is open source and it's a privacy orientated company. As a Proton user I would like to say it's a good company which maintains a balance in every sector. We don't know about the future. But for now, I'll give positive reviews about Proton AG.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Just remember, never simp for a company. The ''evil'' company we know was good until they become too big.
That is why corporations and Unions are always bad they are only incentivized to care about their bottom lines and share holders and do nothing for average consumers. We need small Enterprises and a lot of competetion.
@@Krishna-pt3yu You have a really serious misunderstanding of Unions. Are there bad unions that abuse their position? Absofuckinglutely but don't forget that most unions work very hard to protect its members from corporate exploitation. Edit: I say 'most', but maybe 'many' is a fairer way to say it.
@@Krishna-pt3yuunions in the states got a bad reputation because of the State letting mafia taking them over. Union are supposed to be company's. Union in Europe do good job in Collective Bargaining Deal. Even if the employee who buy workforce is good, a deal is the bair minimum so if the CEO goes bad he can't take steps back, like Elon.
@@vidyajamesuIndeed, this mindset is unsanitary and immature. A lot of competition? How will you incentivize it when the huge corporations have solidified power? Best you can do is to innovate in other sectors and also hold the giants accountable via the government. Good unions also hold the companies accountable so that the workers don't get treated like slaves. And even then, it's not secure that good unions last. If the company isn't seeing max profits while a union exists, then the shareholders will replace the CEO with another that is anti-union and bust it up.
The Proton Corporation is owned by the nonprofit Proton Foundation, which has a very explicit charter detailing their values of freedom and democracy and security and privacy for the internet. And that nonprofit is incorporated in a country that legally enforces its charter so that it will be forced forever to act in accordance with its stated goals and intentions.
Craigslist is my 'good company' - 250 million monthly visits, $500m+ revenue, and just 50 employees. Simple, user friendly and stable since 1995
You’re clueless. Craigslist is huge, and very complex, both technically, legally etc. Craigslist is a Behemoth
User friendly? 😂
@@loganwenzel1615 maybe if you hate the UI being updated, ever, I could see that.
"User friendly" is questionable
@@loganwenzel1615 It's not pretty, but if you can read and operate a mouse, it's the easiest website in the world to use.
About the French activist: He used the normal webpage for the email, which is why Proton had to give his IP address to the authorities. Proton does operate a TOR service, where you can access your email without your IP address being exposed, so if he would have used that, the authorities would be left empty-handed.
Furthermore, Proton's yearly transparency report does state how many government requests they received, how many they contested, and how many they ultimately complied with. You cannot operate a company in a western country without abiding the law, but I think in this regard, Proton is as good as it gets.
You cannot operate a company *anywhere* without being at a whim of whatever country you're running it from. And if you want to (legally) accept money, you always have to do that.
THere's been others caught by leaving a recovery email that then leads to another service they can obtain information from, eg: using a GMail as your recovery or a phone number.
This generally doesn't bother general users like the majority. But if you are an activist or posting things that can likely get you into trouble, such as whistleblowing, you should really be looking into how to create complete new online identities and not be using that hardware or your home network for anything else.
To add to this. Proton has published a statement back then, when this "drama" happened, that this French activist was also informed that his activity must be logged by court order and he still continued as if nothing happened. Obviously felt too save or had a wrong idea of being invincible. So in my book the only one who has to be blamed is the French guy and nobody else.
ProtonMail does also work with other encrypted mail services which use PGP or where the user themselves sets up PGP, so this isn't a closed eco-system.
Google would never allow PGP handshake cuz they want to read all your mail for ad purposes. lol
@@BillAnt It's not about the handshake, you encrypt message contents in your mail client, and you can do that with Google, too. But they still get to see the metadata (and subject!).
It doesn't support autocrypt at least.
@@amunak_ - Rest assured they have using a PGP plug-in, but not much their can do about it. Through as you said, their still know the sender/recipient and subject which is valuable for ad purposes.
As a proton user, I'm not a fan of proton marketing
There are a lot of claims about Proton's marketing being misleading, but honestly I don't see it. If you actually read what they say instead of half-assidly skimming it and making nonsensical assumptions about what email has a protocol that's capable of doing, it's extremely clear what they mean.
I got banned from their email, for no reason
I first saw marketing for Proton on an adult web site with sketchy ads lol
That's because in some US states (Texas for example) you need to use a VPN to be able to watch p*rn. @@wrentubes1886
at least they are not as annoying and pushing like tutanota
As a proton user I confirm this - it allows to run all Steam games with 1 click
Unless anti-cheat :(
funny.
@@1.0 unless the developers have explicitly chosen not to have their games anti-cheat work with proton
Not anymore :(
Lol that is a different tool
Proton is what Mozilla should have been.
Exactly
Yea I always wished for Thunderbird to become a proper email provider, but Mozilla tried to axe it on multiple occasions instead. They don't even advertise the client on their website anymore. Also killed their passwords app, it's like they're evolving but backwards..
Proton is paid. Firefox is free. There's no way to monetize a browser without selling your data.
@@Jose04537 Firefox is not the only product Mozilla has. In fact, it also has subscription services, the same monetization model Proton uses.
A wild Kora spotted!
If the company turns evil or not, will depend on the businessmodel. If they can realize healthy growth without selling out on their values, we might have an actually 'good' company whose interest arent against the interests of their users.
They didn't go public, so that's a good start...
Counterpoint: you can always realise more growth by opening up to the possibility of evil, so it’s ultimately up to the company’s leadership whether or not they keep to the path.
Proton is proof that companies can be trustworthy, affordable, open-source-based, and still be profitable.
P.S. still don't ever trust them. As they get bigger, their greed will grow in proportion to their size. And with companies that wealthy, greed will always win.
Until they get too big or go public.
@Jose04537 Yeah, i was a bit stoned on the second one
@@Redmentoos Man that took a 180 real quick, but yeah, honestly I think some companies really can be trusted, but regardless it's still good practice for them to act in a way where you don't need to trust them to still have privacy whenever possible.
For example: Mullvad, I trust that they aren't gonna spy on me, but it's still really good that they operate in a way where even if they did want to spy on me it would be very difficult
First of all they leaked personal data of an activist from France 3y ago towards the swiss authorities think again they are just the same as Google and other tech companies
Proton has been surrounded by some controversy, but a channel called "Default" made a pretty good video talking about that. In short - it's 100% fine to use for the privacy aware, you just need to remember that email as a technology wasn't designed with privacy and security in mind and you should use other, more secure forms of communication if it's necessary.
Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. This comment should be pinned
"By Default". It's a great video
I am not sure why there are so many negative comments here. Of course, we have to see what happens in the future and if Proton stays as ethical as it seems right now, but I am quite excited that there appears to be a company that tries to build a eco-system of so many different useful features in a privacy focused way. We can always complain when it goes the wrong way and discontinue using it but for now let´s cheer it up and support it!
Yes. Thank you. They actively lobby the government to enforce freedoms and privacy. So hopefully that government will continue to hold them accountable.
A lot of people seem to thing the downfall of such a company is inevitable. I think it all comes down to the intention. If the company structure makes it impossible to deviate from the original values, then we have a good basis.
@@andrijnovak6367 I don't think its quite as much the lack of trust in the company as it is today, but rather skepticism towards a heroic all-good company coming to the rescue. It sounds too good to be true. But for as long as the foundation controls the company and stays true to it's mission, I prefer supporting them than any other alternative.
Completely agree.
I'm actively a fan of Google products and their usage of and view of AI Etc, and I've also been using Proton for over 5 years least. I cheer it on and support it. I also think it's a very distant 2nd in being decent software and I really think Google nails it a LOT of the time. Hell, the pixel phone is the first phone I've actually loved.
And I don't use a single thing from Proton except for mall, and even that, I only use a little. The rest is very very meh. We need them and they are good but damn, they have a ways to go.
For me the most important thing is that Proton is not an American company and this is why I don’t think it will end up like the other giants.
spotify?
I never understood the issue when Proton handed over their users IPs to the authorities being controversial. They initially didn't comply which caused such a huge issue that their government "had to" step in from my understanding. I'd trust them more for that than other companies that would've handed user information to the authorities without any resistance.
I agree, but the best is to have absolutely 0 logs in the first place, but there are laws against that
Well they do also offer a VPN service with a pretty good free option now so as long as they don’t reveal the IP that’s concealing there is a pretty easy way to get around that issue at least.
@@username-mb2qh Mullvad VPN is confirmed to not store logs
In their terms, until that incident, they claimed such data wasn't logged. When it happened, they silently changed the ToS to cover that. So, basically, you can put very little trust in a company like Proton.
@@naervern2107 But the thing is that the data wasn't logged. They had to get the IP from a live connection. And it's quite difficult to not know the unobfuscated IP address of a person directly connected to you for communications.
Let's hope they won't take after Mozilla, which is an absolute mess of a company and will end up ruining the only competitor Chrome has...
the issue is that mozilla is a weird thing of a company, firefox is open source however the board of mozilla is not, which is why even though no users want ai, ai can make it into the main browser.
@@beefox__Plenty of users want AI in their browser... have you never even used it before? Why do you think ChatGPT is so popular among people? It's useful.
Zen Browser came out to push the needle and make Firefox better, and if things go haywire I believe that it, LibreWolf and Mullvad Browser can pick up where Mozilla would have left. Not to mention there is also Ladybird which is completely independent of Chromium, Firefox and WebKit.
I wonder if Proton can purchase Mozilla. To be the "google replacement", an owned browser should be in their toolbelt.
Mozilla went downhill when Brendan Eich left the company
3:22 Proton's solution in the meantime is you can send an "encrypted mail" to someone that actually sends a link to a note that they need a password to open.
The note is email-formatted and doesn't leave their servers, so if you send the password via something like Signal then Google/Microsoft/Yahoo etc can't read your private emails to non-Proton users
*Consumers don't care about privacy*. Any service that focuses on privacy will never get beyond a niche service. Privacy is a feature that everyone says is important, but when it comes to actually spending money, it's not a priority.
proton is free ! enterprise features are under a paywall
@@bad_dragonA Proton subscription is worth the money.
Consumers don't care about privacy when they don't feel directly effected by it constantly being violated. They're used to not having it and forget it can be different
WE NEED PROTON MAPS!! just make OSM but with a good interface so i can ditch Gmaps and make it easy to suggest edits so the community can help it be better!!
Organic Maps is 1000% what you want, it's truly excellent.
@@alexisdumas84or osmandmaps or magic earth, all great
I love OsmAnd. Especially since open street maps have POIs like toilets 😅
@weekendwarrior3420 I think it's pretty naive to think that Garmin doesn't track users. Also, it's pretty bad use of money. Not only are the devices pretty bad but you already have devices that can do navigation. Most people have their previous phone, I don't understand why people aren't finding ways to use their old phones.
There are several open source and privacy-friendly navigation apps for Android. If you run GrapheneOS then you're much better off privacy-wise than a Garmin product.
Openstreetmaps has sone good apps that makes it very easy to suggest edits.
Also the osmand app is pretty good? Google will always be better, as using so much data from people, just makes searches faster. Also only google will have reviews and pictures.
But osm is already better for finding specifics loke water or toilets, and for walking or biking. Which is crazy that an opensource thing does it better than a big giant company
I feel like we don't just need a good ecosystem from a company, we need a good ecosystem of companies.
Like why not build proton mail support directly into thunderbird?
Why not interoperate with other encrypted mail service providers?
Remember when google has this motto (Don't be evil)
*had
@@matthi9384 sorry English is not my first language :D
Yeah, except this time, the corporation in question, as I've said in a bunch of other comments on this thread, is owned by a non-profit foundation with a very explicit charter, and that foundation in turn has been incorporated in a country that actually legally enforces non-profit charters, such that it can't just change its mind and start doing something else.
@@MrChubib0Maybe consider correcting your comment then instead of misleading everyone who sees it.
In china Google is banned. Apple not. And we know china has full access to every company and service that is allowed there.
Companies aren't inherently evil but it's always about profit. Sometimes they have to do something evil to get more profit and sometimes they have to do more good.
Proton user here. The company has been expanding into a lot of different products lately and there are still a bunch of basic things (like syncing contacts with mobile, calendar stuff, etc) that are missing. Performance of the email client compared to gmail and others is painfully slow. And their marketing posts are bs, they don't seem to be written by people aware of real privacy and security concepts. I don't think this is a "company you can actually like", it's perhaps the lesser of current evils.
I wonder how long it takes for this video to age like milk
My guess is 5 years
I give it 3
As long as they don't get significant market share they won't be able to enshitify their services without using signficant amount of users. Just pray as a Proton user that they stay niche and don't become big and greedy.
It's kind of messed up, but it's basically a law now that when your tech company is big enough you will eventually make your platform/service worse because you have the market power to do so without losing the userbase.
So as a consumer you basically have to root against the success of the service so they stay hungry and bleeding edge.
It is owned by a non-profit foundation.
It could definitly go either direction at this point. I hope they'll solidify the foundation's power over the coming years. Also I never trusted their VPN service. If you're paying for Proton Unlimited you might as well use it, but if you're not I would reccomend going for another VPN service right now.
@@username65585 so is FIFA
I got to meet them in an type of event fair at EPFL in Lausanne when they launched a few years ago, I’ve been using them since then and I don’t regret it!
Proton is great but they need to work toward improving their current products rather than rolling out new ones. There’s a long list of feature requests from customers which have been unmet.
Unfortunately. That is why I cancelled my paid membership to one of their products because the app was just not finished in my opinion. Not sure why this is so because the bugs/feature requests are not that hard as it seems to me as a software developer.
I remember I first heard of proton mail a couple years ago when an investigative journalism podcast I was listening to said that listeners could send secure tips to their proton email - rather than an email of the media organisation. Cool that it has this potential, as others have pointed out being under the Proton Foundation with a clear ethical charter, and being open-source, means it will have at least some longevity.
For now.... Give it enough time
As a proton user, I don't use all their services but the ones I do use I absolutely love. If I ever stop loving them I'll leave in a second. They have to earn my appreciation to keep getting my money.
This video is a complete nerd-out for me! I'm of pretty much identical views on Proton, and I'm glad to see them being recovered like this. By the way - valid points about ownership!
Its funny because I used simple email and standard notes before proton acquired them but I was using proton mail $5 plan . So over time as they expanded their ecosystem I was already a user of the apps they acquired
Great video as always. Keep up the good work man
0:17 I missed Framework there
If you want a VPN, don't use whatever service the RUclipsr you're watching is shilling (most of which are owned by the same, dubious company) and get Proton VPN. If a RUclipsr is shilling it, there's almost always a better alternative available.
ProtonVPN is ok. Mullvad is better IMO
Remember: RUclips promos are way more expensive than ads. If a company can afford shill time, they are probably making a *lot* of money off it.
@@ILoveTinfoilHats The profit margins on VPN services are crazy high.
@@PXAbstraction yup. That and every other scam and/or fear mongering service on RUclips.
I wonder what’s the general consensus on Cloudflare WARP. It seems like another pretty good free VPN option.
I was split between the two options but I like how WARP doesn’t require a login.
I'm so glad this was a positive vid. I've been a proton member since 2019. It's awesome how they've grown in the past 5 years
Even if proton get shittier over time and probably will, it cannot get too bad because there will be no difference compared to the other players. Also even if the privacy features are not perfect just the fact that is not one of the FAANGs and that we have a decent alternative that is always relying on paying and not on ads is a good thing.
I have been using Proton for several years and have an unlimited plan. My biggest fear is that this company will be swallowed up by some big US company, but then I will go somewhere else.
But you can't take your precious email with you unlike mobile numbers. :(
@@BillAnt You can, if you have used your own domain with proton
@@XGD5layer - Well yeah, but relatively few have their own domains.
Thanks ! I have been avoiding 'Proton' but now I will, at least, check them out !
For those of us that just want a consumer level of privacy, I'm happy with my Proton Unlimited package.
Like many others here though, the existing products (Android, in my case) do need better attention. The mail client is fine but the calendar needs a lot of work. I so want to use it, but it just lacks too many basics.
7 years ago, TechAlter put out a video, “Why enthusiast brands will betray you.”
As much as I hope to be proven wrong, that video outlines why Proton is great for now, but once they get big enough…
Sadly it's inevitable.
Big fan of Proton, good pricing and it's permanent as long as you don't switch and great product that gest closer to Google by the week (the calendar is still not there yet though)
I'm a Proton user, even though they have issues -- I'm sticking to it.
Not loving too many products too fast -- some of the core products need love (email, calendar app, etc).
As a Malaysian, i got confused for awhile 😂
elaborate? :D
@@cryonuess there is a malaysian car manufacturer named proton.
Now I know why it sounded so familiar initially.
Fellow Malaysians, that explains…..
Whenever I share my Proton email address to Malaysians, they were like “you working with Proton ah”?
@@jun_suzuki42 Oh man, that's a social engineering angle if I ever saw one.
One thing that should be noted is that, while they do open source their codes, they only show what they want to show so you cant really 100% say for sure that they are being truthful. Their vpn for example is using another open source vpn library like can we say for sure that their commercial vpn is also using that open source vpn library.
If you starts from all free, it is difficult to ask people to pay…..
I have worked in similar scale company before. Private, profitable company, no VC money, selling product for global scales. It is much better to work in there than most places. The company is earning the $$$ most people will consider enough for life, not that much pressure come from management, no crazy deadline, smart people to work with and we can focus to improve the product.
But things just become bad when it is sold to public traded company, management style change, smart people left, good people retired, and some evil people want to maximise the profit, hire bad people for less cost etc
Remember that you can always choose to do the right thing, even if it is harder to choose to do the right thing, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Maybe you are in a bad jurisdiction or whatnot, but implementing OpenPGP or S/MIME or both is a no brainer.
10:20 If they have +50% of the shares, that's probably enough to keep the company safe from adapting non-user friendly practices
Proton is a great company, don't get me wrong.
But true privacy is always in self hosting all of these services yourself. As well. You're the one in control of it. A good VPS is only about 5 bucks a month (depending on the provider).
Or have control over the hardware as well, and self host it at home, for free. apart from electricity and internet.
And a VPS won't work as a VPN, because you'd be the only person using that VPS as a proxy and not only that, but Anyone watching any site you might want to disguise your visit to could easily take your VPS's IP address and trace it back to your account on whatever company like DigitalOcean or whatever you got the VPS from and from there get your PII trivially.
Of course self hosting gives you full control and has some benefits (but also disadvantages like not having a team of security experts checking your system).
But most people just lack the skills to do so. My parents and grandparents would be incapable of doing something like this and I choose not to, just because I don't want to spend my time troubleshooting my own server. With mass surveillance we also need privacy for the masses.
@@tec4303 Self host is honestly, incredibly easy with software like "Yunohost". Just do a single command in ssh, and you're server is setup for you, with good security practices.
Anybody can gain a skill, you just have a try.
it is also hard to self-host email because many big email providers block entire blocks of IPs to avoid spam
So let me get this straight,
I try to hide who I am, so I change the IP of my computer, which is tied to me, by routing my traffic through a virtual server which I also own, which is also tied to me?
Even better, just put the VPN server in my own home so that it has the very same IP as my computer?
Thank you so much, this is genius.
But do the recent additions of their A.I. writer and crypto wallets mark the start of Proton's journey to enshittification?
Don’t know if I agree, Martin. Having different providers for different services is actually a good thing. Ecosystems tie you to a single company way too much. Proton pushing for one so hard makes me not want to use their mail service anymore.
Ecosystems tends to be more convient and easier to use specially on mobile, sso with single credentials, less payment info to manage etc. I think it will attract more people than alienate.
It’s arguably a more ethically run ecosystem, but @Nicola-ch1rg you are right. De-coupling would be de-risking
I really don'y think they "push" you towards their ecosystem, you don't have to use it, it's just there to be convenient for people coming over from Google, Microsoft and Apple.
it's quite easy to integrate free software with other free software, which means you have lots of replacements for the ecosystem apps
Indeed good to place eggs in different baskets, but bad for mass market adoption. If users are gonna be brain dead and follow the path of least resistance, then this is a good way to get them onboard. And for the rest of more privacy concious people, they still have that option. I pay gor proton for example, but I dont use all of the services I get, only a select few and use other services for the rest
I miss the old studio! This background purple-grey is a bit too boring
Current background feels like brilliant logo
The background is a green screen
At least the name is back!
I actually kind of like the background in this video
I love what Proton stands for, but why do they have to be so expensive??? For 2TB storage per year in AUD, Google is $125, Mega is $165, Dropbox is $184, but proton is $285 for 1TB or 449 for 3TB
Great video! Thank you for all the details. I like Proton a lot and I am using it since a few years now as my email
I also use proton and I love it. I love what they do and I really wish they offered a full disc encryption for my computer.
I’d love to use proton, but it’s way too expensive for me to justify it. I’m not saying the price isn’t fair, considering they only rely on income through subscriptions, but for me personally I just can’t spend that much on a mail suit.
the free tier of proton mail is basicly equivalent to gmail
My question after that video is: How? How did they manage to get a solid business model as an email provider that is only secure when communicating with other customers?
I love proton, they are not perfect and at times need some time to iron out things but they do try. Their possibly the most easy to use private service provider.
They are good enough for the normal person wanting to limit their reliance on Google/Apple/Whatever. Just don't rely entirely on the promise for privacy and security. Their apps are good enough for me, some functionality is missing, but still better than having lots of useless bloat.
proton can pay a small donation to signal and maybe incorporate a version of signal into proton for business video calls and p2p calls within their service. This increases the network effect for both the players.
Proton mail also allows you to send email with password instead of just plaintext to gmail or other unencrypted servers. This means other user just receive link with prompt to enter password (you have to tell them that password). This atleast mitigate the gmail automatically reading the email content.
You and Mental Outlaw probably need to have a chat.
hes just shilling
Why exactly? Proton is superior for now and I don't see any issues with it. I agree with this channel
Tbh Mental Outlaw is the other extreme of privacy discussion. His videos are too obsessed with privacy to your average internet user, may as well just get off the grid
Finance bros be like, "Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior Jack Welch?"
The problem is that all of their apps are half baked. They don’t even have search in calendar on mobile or full text search for mail on mobile. It’s hard to attracts new users when their products are so limited. They need to stop launching new half-done products and focus on the existing ones.
Proton VPN is among the better options available, and its free service is quite impressive
Request to do a video about email providers other than the big mega corps.
While you're waiting, you can check out the LTT series "De-google your life"
Don't know if its same company, but I owned high-tech Proton Monitor and Pulse Code Modulator over 50 years ago
I prefer private companies over public companies. Sure their financial Reports are not public but especially in the case for companies on the stock market, private companies don't have to grow so agressively and become hostile. It's "okay" to loose some money, especially in a ressesion (obviously always taking a loss is bad, but its not so "overly feared and problematic")
Proton's much better, but they do have many red flags, recently they rug pulled their own paying users, posting offers and saying that if you bought them, you would get premium features, and after a few weeks changed their ToS removing said features. Their official account made the comments so yeah.
Proton should make a competitor to signal or merge with them and create a premium version to bring in revenue
Thanks for this video! It's good to know that we still have some hope in terms of privacy. I will consider these services.
I'm a big fan of Proton, too. Been using their email and VPN for more than a year now, and I'm very interested if they can offer a complete alternative to the Google-Microsoft-Apple ecosystem.
Imagine a fusion of Brave + Proton + CalyxOS + Signal + TOR would be such a crazy feat. ProCaSiTOR vs GAFAM
I've moved to quite a few of Proton's services. Email, drive, and password mgr
I have been thinking about switching from Google Workspace to Proton. But the 'ecosystem' is something that I find to be the biggest turnoff. Proton Mail is expensive because of the rest of the features. I have VPN, I have cloud storage, I have a password manager. I intend to keep using those, and not switch to the Proton features that are included. I don't care if its only a 1 euro discount... its the principle. This kind of behavior is not something that fits in my definition of consumer friendly. Also arbitrary limits like having 15 e-mail aliases in the unlimited plan... thats not unlimited and there is no reason to limit them on the highest tier subscription. So yea, I'll continue thinking about it for the forseeable future.
The alias limit is to prevent commercial abuse
I hope Proton would go into web & email hosting. Also, cloud service for small businesses -- above what Gdrive offers but below what Azure and AWS typically service
I like Proton's products but they're also paywalling things like biometric auth on Proton Pass for desktop while moving to a nonprofit model. It's a mixed bag 🤷♀
freedom-respecting software can be commercial
I have used protons products for 6 years and love the company ❤️
If it exists, it will undergo enshittification. Rule #36.
There is also p..rn of it
#34
@@texanplayer7651 I am pro Proton porn (Proporn). If there is Amateur Proton porn, then I am pro Pro Proton Porn.
Depends on who the owners are. Companies funded by VC money and publicly traded companies will squeeze every drop of good out of everything.
However private companies owned by one or a few people will do what those people believe in. And they will survive enshittyfication as long as the owner is engaged. See Valve as an example.
Ah yes, a rare promising company is trying to go big and still has its values so let me call it a future evil instead of supporting (or even being neutral)
That mentality won't help you bro
@@texanplayer7651 Protondaddy, please protonate me. :3
There is something very wrong with Proton. I think it’s a honeypot. Their product design is the same as HushMail and that was backdoored for the US.
When he showed the gmail and protonmail logo side by side, I just then realised their logo seem completely opposite.
I don't know if that's on purpose but protonmail's logo seems like it's made from the negative space of gmail's, almost. Like it's signaling that they are giving everything gmail isn't.
Pretty interesting.
You mean at 2:50? They look nothing alike. Google is clearly a M, with multiple contrasting colours. Protonmail is a vague with very sharp corners and purple gradients.
@@jojodroid31
exactly. what a great logo!
Even if the "Foundation" 100% owns the company - who runs the Foundation? That's another important question. People can be bought.
You can read their blog post, it's explained there
Even if proton didn't do encryption between proton users, or didn't have open source client side code, or was just as bad as the other guys in every way, there's still a case for giving some of the resources to a third guy, rather than just continuing to contribute towards the empire of the first two...
Hold up, they bought standard notes too?
I was waiting for you video
Proton makes cars too! They sell em in Malaysia
I've tried to find out how Proton Scribe, the AI assistant, works and how "open" it is. It seems they are using Mistral AI, which basically says "we don't tell you where our training data is coming from" 😏. So, its very likely they use data that violates licenses and/or ToU agreements (just as everybody else btw).
I work with Proton, and I'm a privacy activist for all. The work we do is genuinely beneficial for the world, to counteract big mass surveillance big tech corporations. We provide privacy by default technologies. I have sign up referrals if interested. All my profits go to genuine clean sustainable foundations too.
Proton needs to make a browser based on the Gecko engine
Yes, we need better Firefox, or in future create Browser based on servo or ladybird
@@spiritofstar Librewolf
@@formbi no
@@spiritofstar lol
I'll just continue waiting (impatiently) for the Ladybird browser.
2:18 Pretty good
3:00 both need Proton
i really hope they release a browser. that would be so cool
Great breakdown!
Good until the get bigger and the Feds decides it's time to ask for user data like Telegram.
At least proton encrypts their users data by default lol.
If you accept the walled garden. Apple is one option for people. But its not free in any shape or size.
0:17 you definitely have mozilla in the wrong category there...
girl.. anyway
You saying Mozilla is not ethical? Or they are reaching the masses?
@@AdmiralSP Not ethical. But since we're on the subject of reaching the masses, they are right now, but that may end soon. Google isn't allowed to pay browsers to make them the default search engine anymore and that payment made up something like 90% of mozilla's annual income, so they may cease to exist in a year.
@@Danny.._why are they not ethical?
@@bandito241 they sell your information just like google does, they use it to advertise to you just like google does, there was a person who was supposed to be the next ceo of mozilla who get fired for taking medical leave to treat his cancer in a very sneaky and illegal way, they take the money that gets donated to the mozilla foundation and spend it on weird AI things instead of paying firefox developers, they've added new ways to track you and steal your information in recent versions of firefox, etc., etc., etc.
unfortunately as the past 20 years or so have shown us, anything that you don't host yourself that claims to be something like this is essentially a honey pot,.in a long enough time line anyway. especially a company that consolidates several sensitive products into one account.
One annoying thing is that Proton being more private also used more by criminals and some sites are banning signups by Proton emails domains...
Any email provider can be used by criminals.
I ended up choosing Tuta instead, for very small reasons like pricing model and specific features I wanted. Do you have thoughts about Tuta? Might it be worth a video?
AFAIK the CERN in Switzerland is also the same place where the first mail (maybe?) was sent or something similar.
It is where HTML was created.
Proton apps are very well made too. Fantastic UX
Love ur content
E-mail is antiquated and fundamentally insecure, we need a new decentralized system, that is secure and not owned/controlled by any single entity.
A part of Proton AG is open source and it's a privacy orientated company. As a Proton user I would like to say it's a good company which maintains a balance in every sector. We don't know about the future. But for now, I'll give positive reviews about Proton AG.