I love your content, and I have a ton of respect for your shooting ability. That said, I want to share something as I had a very similar experience the first time I shot my LMT MWS 20" 6.5 CM. During my first range outing, using high-quality otm Factory ammo, every 5 round group was between 1.5 - 3 MOA at 100 yards. I was beyond disappointed, as I had just spent over $3,000 for the rifle, and another $2500 for the optic setup After doing some research, as difficult as it was to admit, the cause of the poor grouping was me. Initially I thought it had to be the rifle, because I routinely shoot sub .3's with my Accuracy International bolt action rifle. However, I have learned that heavy bolt action Precision rifles are a much more forgiving forgiving platform to shoot accurately The AR-10 platform will exploit any flaw you have in your shooting fundamentals. I find when I shoot with a soft shoulder, focus on trigger press and follow through, bring my thumb to the strong side, and keep the trigger pinned back until the recoil cycle is over, my groups improve significantly. I'm also consciously neutral on the bipod, I do not load it (especially with Atlas or that Magpul) . These have all helped me stay sub MOA with the exact same ammo when I focus on all of the above. Any lack of focus will produce a bad shot. When I do everything right, I now consistently shoot .5 MOA - .9 MOA with 130 gr Berger hybrids I love to hate trying to shoot tiny groups with the AR-10
Thanks for the information, I appreciate the candor. I have shot it since then with no luck. But we shall see what happens! Thanks for watching and the input!
@@HuntFishShootChannelI would try one other thing, try using a benchrest style front rest or at least a big heavy front bag along with a rear bag. Eliminate the bipod as a variable
I has a similar experience when I got into ar308's. Mediocre groups despite shooting well with bolt guns and ar15's. Worked on my technique quite a bit and saw improvement. I didn't really do anything different as much as just doing it better and more consistent. I also have better luck using a sandbag rather than a bipod. Not sure why because bipods have always worked well for me with bolt guns and 15's.
You don’t pay for accuracy when buying a more expensive rifle. You pay to not have tolerance stacking and malfunctions over the long term of the rifle. And build quality. Psa may be accurate but are poorly built, and have many out of spec parts, which causes tolerance stacking.
This! I just put together a dumpster fire of a Frankenstein AR10. Took me a bit to get it running right. But I did. I have under 600 in the gun and another 200 for the scope (PSA daily deal, vortex 3-18) After tweaking and finding the right ammo, she runs great and I can nail 6in plates at 600. So yeah, spend the extra money on ammo and getting better.
@@JulianLares The lower quality according to you but it shoots the same caliber, has better accuracy and is $2,000 cheaper. Mine has 100% reliability, so the "upper tier" juice ain't worth the squeeze.
@@davidwoolard1264 oh, I'm not saying the p AR-10 won't perform, I'm just saying that the $1300 sabre is different than the $800 AR-10 line, so it won't be exactly 1:1 with the super sass since it's a sabre line and not an AR-10 item
Got an ADM UIC 13.9 last year. Came with a loose barrel nut that was barely noticeable. Great gun once I took care of it. But whoa buddy, they got some folks to have a talk with in the offices.
Loose barrel nuts and castle nuts seem to be a common theme. This is why I don't even fully trust companies like Daniel Defense, you really don't know what kind of effort went into the rifle. This is why I put together my own rifles so I can get the exact torque spec, surface prepped screws and loctite etc.
10:31 The bipod rail isn't connected. I'm sure it doesn't hurt anything but you may want to be aware it flex'd and pulled away from the handguard for just a moment
Might be interesting reaching out to criterion actually, they’re crazy about tolerance stacking, your bcg, bolt head, head spacing everything. They might be able to point you in a better direction to tighten up that ADM.
I'd definitely reach out to them as well. Currently waiting to get my upper ADM from them because I was getting poor accuracy. Ended up being a bad bolt which caused damage to the barrel extension. Waiting to hear back on how it shoots once they get it back together but was told they will get it shooting how it should
@HuntFishShootChannel I may see what you mean. After tuning the rifle, it was slightly under gassed with out at suppressor and over gassed with the suppressor. But was 100% functional for 200rds.
@MissouriMan yeah essentially. I couldn’t get it tuned well. And then when I had it tuned to be 99% reliable, their trigger they claim is as good as a Geissele, wouldn’t reset.
@@HuntFishShootChannel oh damn. Yea I did go through the trigger group and polished everything up. It was rough in areas. Didnt have that problem though.
This video proves everything I've always thought about 308 gas rifles. I'm in no way trying to be a wise guy or cut down either of those rifles. I'd love to have either one. The Hide recently did a video on a 308 gas rifle that he re-barreled with a BCA 20" CHF that he bought for 129 bucks. At 110 yards off the bench, Federal Blue Box Hunting Ammo shot a solid 1 inch group on 4 out of 5 shots. He threw one which opened the group up to less than 2". Next up Gold Medal Match, about a 1 1/2" group if I recall correctly. He shot a third ammo that was less stellar but still did as good or better than these two rifles you shot overall. I believe his trigger was a milspec as well. I have nothing against either rifle you shot. They're both superb looking. On any given day, anyone with lots of trigger time behind the 308 can have a great day or a poor day when it comes to shooting groups. I wouldn't pay what they ask for either one of yours. Besides the fact that I live in Illinois, and we can no longer legally purchase anything AR platform related, including parts, it doesn't matter much any way. It sucks and I'm sure you've noticed the huge downward direction of gun crime in Chitown since the new law took effect on 1/2023. (LOL, that's sarcasm) You could go back out there and repeat the same test another day and get stellar results out of one or both. The only thing I couldn't help but notice, both of your rifles looked to be a bit over gassed based on the ejection pattern. I think a slight adjustment on the gas blocks on both might tighten things up if you try this again. To be fair, I'd also do 5 shot groups myself. The PSA rifle seemed to kick like a mule compared to your ADM as well. One last thing. I bought an ADM QD mount. It's great and does a fantastic job at holding my Vortex scope which I transfer from rifle to rifle when I change calibers. One day about 5 years ago I saw a deep sale on the Burris QD mounts. Just under a c-note each delivered. I bought a pair so I could try them. I wanted to stop the insanity of having to re zero every time I switched rifles. I'm pleasantly surprised that over the years, these have served me very well and do an amazing job. Sorry for the short book comment, I just felt like bloviating a bit after seeing this very cool and honest test. I appreciate guys like you who don't sugar coat results, it's very refreshing these days here on YT. Cheers and safe shooting.
Thanks for putting up the video. No offense intended (this is an industry wide problem), but if we're going to compare 2 guns, lets only compare 2 guns. Have everything be the same: scope, mounts, bipod, maybe even muzzle brakes. That way, it is truly the guns being compared. Also, some additional ranges would be nice. A lot more can be seen at 700 yards than 100. Again, no offense intended- I don't have the money to put up a video comparing those 2 guns. But that is also because if I can't do it right, I'm not doing it. You can pay a gunsmith to add an ambi bolt release to the PSA for A LOT less than the cost difference between those 2 rifles...
The difference was purposely, one set up with no budget and the other on a budget. Hence the purpose of the title. It demonstrated our suspicions, money doesn’t guarantee some huge difference in performance. Than you for insight and opinions!
My PSA shoots 150gr cor-lokt sub-moa. Shoots hornady black 168 in a 3 inch group. I want to test more loads, but sometimes your rifle chooses a load it likes and thats just what you go with!
My Palmetto PA 10 Gen 3 rocks. 1 moa with Freedom Munitions. .5 with M118 Best groups. I think I was shooting 1.5 moa for the first 100 rounds, then I started getting tighter groups. 17 gas positions so I can tune down and not need a muzzle brake. $600 if you time with daily deal. I've been rocking the 20 inch for a year, and I just received a 16 inch upper to swap in for a battle rifle configuration. I can't imagine the Saber line being much better. There's just not that much room for improvement. The color is awesome, but I'm not paying twice the money just for FDE.
Just some content advice when comparing guns. As a few other’s advised, show the target when shooting. Get a target camera showing your shots and map the different products on the target. Advice to all , gas guns are a different animal for accuracy due to the expelled gas and different gas systems in play. When you get an accurate load that works stop there! Probably need to reload your own to work as well! My Many years in experience for Mil/Law and Comp Have seen this as well as so many other variables. Enjoyed your content and good editing! Godspeed Comp
A good alternative to these AR10s is the seekins SP10. I've gotten better groups from ball ammo than what's shown in this video. Floats around 1" with fed gmm 175gr sometimes under some over.
I don't know if both those guns were new out of the box or not but putting one hundred rounds through a gun before testing accuracy is the best policy. Of course, you will want to take your time and clean the barrel between every five rounds through the break-in period then retest. I bet both rifles will shoot much better groups.
Without really getting into it I think this is a pretty good representation… I don’t think expecting 1.5-2 MOA is too much to ask for how this shooting went down. With time/break in they should get better. With ammo testing they should get better, but unless you’re really wanting an AR10 I wouldn’t expect 1 MOA. Just me though. Thanks for the review.
I really wanted to see both of them shoot better, even shot them after this video hoping they were flukes but returned the same results. Fringe 1 MOA at best with 6 different common match ammos
@BadActor- maybe! This UIC is very nice but I haven’t found the right bullets which must be ultra special because I tried all the popular match ammos with 1-1.5 MOA results. Not what I want
I have one of psa's ar-10s. Not even the Sabre line. Bottom of the line. Minus gas/buffering/spring changes. It shoots good. Sub moa all day with the right ammos. I can't speak to the longevity or durability vs an adm. But the psa shoots accurate enough with federal and aac 150gr sp, and aac 168 and 175gr otm.
@jacobdeem8187 over 50 on the ADM and 20 on the Sabre before filming. It’s 2024 and a quality well made barrel especially one that is lapped, doesn’t need a break in. But if a gun shoots 1-1.5 MOA, it’s not all of a sudden going to shoot .5 with break in. Do some gun barrels need a break in? Sure but not high end barrels.
@@HuntFishShootChannel some do some don't need a break in period. I'm not big on break in periods but I've seen plenty of barrels that speed up and tighten up with varying round counts.
I always tell people the same thing here. It depends on your skill sets. If you have no gunsmithing skill, pay the money for top end product. If you routinely break down your rifles blindfolded, custom design parts and accessories, and hand load your own ammo to the third decimal point on powder and bullet grain, well, then you can go cheaper and fix/alter what needs. It's like buying a car. You don't buy a beater if you barely know where to check the oil. That being said, I love my PA-10 Gen3 after I fixed the timing issue causing the firing pin to hit primer so hard it sometimes blew holes through the primer. Consistently shoots .5-.75 MOA at 100m.
Not so much, but I own both and if you spent 4 grand on two bare rifles and they just don’t shoot that well, it’s disappointing. The ADM shoots really well suppressed but the PSA is a dumpster fire
Nice looking rifles. Maybe it's my own fault but I couldn't get consistent groups with that magpul bipod. Just too loosey goosey. Theoretically, if you load it the same amount each shot, it shouldn't matter but i ended up tossing mine in a box and buying another Harris. I also ended up shooting my 308 gas guns with sandbags rather than bipods most of the time. I almost always shoot my bolt guns from bipods but for some reason my gas guns seem to be a tad more consistent from sandbags. Probably something I'm doing wrong but either way I'm getting good groups.
Sooo... Just throwing this out. 1st thing I see is, new gun, regardless of how similar it is to anything else you shoot, you will need to train with it , get used to it, and you will see improvement. Gucci gun with Gucci ammo does not guarantee Gucci results. Next thing is, when I went to sniper school originally, I took one of the recommended guns which was a Remington 700 PSS. This was in the mid 1990's. At the recommendation of some of the old-school snipers of the day, I firelapped the barrel. It is a tedious process and it takes a long time to accomplish. I had a couple months, and to be honest, I cut some corners towards the end. What I saw was my skill improved through the process, and the firelapping improved the performance of the rifle. It was a solid sub moa with Fed match. The last thing, I found that shooting the rifle using the bipod, especially on hard/solid surfaces was not optimal. I started using sand bags, and in the field I would use my pack. I saw noticeable improvement in my accuracy. The bipod became a last ditch tool when the mission, or circumstances dictated it. I eventually had the gun accurized by a guy named Daniel Ross. It was a one hole gun after that. I was not able to shoot it as well as it could shoot. Of course, all of this was my humble opinion, based on my experiences, and training at the time. Incidentally, I own a PSA Super Sass. Just got it and have not had a chance to shoot it yet. I intend to firelap the barrel and see how it turns out. Good stuff! I appreciate your presentation and your honesty.
What the f*ck does firelapping the barrel mean lol? I've never heard of that, I mean it sounds cool don't get me wrong but I've never once heard of that term before haha.
lol. i got excited when you talked about the PSA and got ready to talk about the competitor. Which budget rifle will go against the premium gun? Oh, the PSA was the budget one?!?!?! Sucks to be poor. lol
It was new and barrel was broken in for the video depending on what someone thinks is the round count for that. Regardless it didn’t shoot great even after 200 Thanks for watching!
I am doing further testing but I have a PSA Super SASS and I have got sub-MOA groups with custom loads using the Hornady 178gr BTHP bullets. My buddy shot my rifle but used Gold Medal Sierra MatchKing 308 Win 175 Grain bullets and also got sub-MOA groups. We are not pro shooters and like I said I will be doing more testing to measure the performance over time, but so far those two options have been great. Edit: They do make a factory match round with that Hornady 178gr BTHP top, but I haven't tried the factory stuff yet.
I’m sure there is a load that works and shoots sub MOA but currently my rifle is having trigger reset issues. It’s an easy repair by me but unfortunately not acceptable for the price. PSA has shown me their guns are not for serious end users. They are range guns. They make some great stuff and make lots of mediocre stuff. Which is okay!
@@HuntFishShootChannel That is unfortunate. Sorry yours has given you so many issues. I just wanted to give you some ideas of decent rounds to look into for future investigations if you were interested. I hope mine continues to not have issues! haha.
I've heard after around 100 rounds these precision barrels tighten up their groups. I've certainty experienced this with hunting rifles. I'd be interested to see a follow up. To be honest I've never actually seen a gas rifle shoot sub moa so 1.5 to 2 might be as good as it gets. Thanks for the honest review!
Also I have a bear creek 6.5 creedmoor, the barrel looks like a sewer pipe, phosphated inside, also a bull barrel, that thing shoots half MOA groups all day long. Some of it is the luck of the draw on parts, buying more expensive stuff just gives you a better chance.
I think a 3 round group is an embarrassingly poor test to recommend a purchase on, you also don't in anyway discuss longevity, reliability, warranty, or use case
We specifically state why a three shot group was used. In addition 3 shot groups is the standard which 98% of rifles on the market are held to for accuracy guarantees. This is an initial review, not a long term use review. Use case? That’s up to the individual to make that choice. Finally, if this test was poor, do you have an example of yourself making a similar video for us to see how it’s done? If so drop us a link 🙏
I wonder what the groups would have looked like if you had the same scope and bipod on each rifle. I have found that the bipod, in particular, makes a great deal of difference in the group size.
Honestly bro... First these were the first shots for either gun? Do ya think maybe when ya get them broke in the barrels on both will geoup better? Second my advise try the Federal 175 gr SMKs... After they are broke in they both ought to shoot that round pretty good, ive seen that load ran in a TON of AR10s and its the most consistently accurate box load
The PSA doesn’t shoot any better and when we showed the groups, that was after zero and 20-30 rounds through them. PSA actually reached out to us about this video and said we could expect 1.2 MOA accuracy out of the rifle, which it did do. The adm actually shoots 168 Grain better than the 175 SMK GMM, but it does shoot a little better. Does it shoot like .5 or better, no it shoots .80 consistently.
Interesting. I have a Franken gun that is closer to the ADM than to the PSA. Mine has Criterion 16" barrel, Brownels BCG, forged receivers from wherever, Radian Raptor charging handle, Gieslie trigger and midwest industries handguard. The stock on mine is a carbine style Magpul, but it will get upgraded. It's scoped with a SFP 2.5-15 Trigicon Credo. I'm in it for around 1500 without the optic, but some of those parts were bought when things were hard to find and priced at a premium. My results are similar to yours. Winchester M118 is shooting sub MOA to 2 MOA, and I have two 5 shot groups with Fed 165gr Berger that are .93 and 1.34. I'll have some more ammunition to work through this week. I have seen others remark that sometimes these rifles will settle in after 6 or 700 rounds. I'm probably still a bit shy of that.
Any way we can see how a midwest industries rifle compares with their criterion barrel? Rifle is about $1700 i believe which seems like a pretty good deal from a fairly solid company but reviews are very seldom to find
I really expected the PSA to get bashed in this video. So thanks for being honest. But I’m still not buying either gun. LOL. I have to much fun building them myself. And after your video it looks like I’m putting better guns together for cheaper.
I would not test for accuracy until you have at least 100 rounds through them. Even if it's M80 ball ammo. I've seen multiple Sabre 10 rifles shooting .75in moa at 100 yards. But they had a few hundred rounds through them. Also the PSA's seem to like Federal Gold Match 175gr or 168gr. To me that's the best factory load you can buy.
Funny. My 2003 vintage green Armalite AR10T shoots less than 1" groups - which was the norm for these rifles. I guess I'll keep shooting it and let people who buy "for looks" keep buying to look cool. Mean green still has no replacement.
I hear a lot of complaints on the PSA not having ambi controls, they offer a billet option that has them. You just bought the wrong one if you wanted that.
Am I the only one that noticed the bipod rail on the PSA was loose while shooting? I feel like that might have contributed to the accuracy issues. I've been shooting a lot of .308 lately and my POF Revolution is just about at 1.25 MOA with the right ammo. I'm also doing 10 round groups though. 3 rounds just doesn't seem like enough to get a solid representation of the barrel's actual accuracy. I know that if I only fired 3 rounds with my POF, I could easily say it's sub-MOA. Last time I took it out, the first 6 rounds were touching and less than a half an inch. Regardless, the accuracy of that ADM is just unacceptable. I would show this video to them and see what's going on with the rifle cause a $3k rifle should shoot better than that.
Not loose at all. The Magpul bipod has significantly more flex and play than the atlas. Three rounds was used as it’s the standard for manufacturers to use for accuracy testing. Bolt guns have no issue reaching sub Moa if they are good rifles with 3 rounds but for some reason less than accurate ARs need 5 or more? The reality is if the gun can’t shoot sub Moa with 3 shots, it won’t do it in 5. In regards to the ADM, I’m dissatisfied to say the least. I have shot it more since we filmed with the same results. There could be an ammo out there but I haven’t found it yet in any of the normal good shooting 308 stuff. Black hills will be next
@@HuntFishShootChannel I wasn't referring to the bipod, but the rail it's mounted on itself. I can literally see it separate from the handguard several times through the video while shooting. As for the grouping, I don't think you understood what I said. I'm not saying the rifle would group tighter with a larger amount of bullets per grouping, if anything, it'd be even worse, but that'd be an accurate representation of what the rifle is actually doing. Everyone is moving to 10 round groups now because of what I explained. With my POF, if I do a 3 round group, I can practically stack the bullets on top of each other and claim I have a half-MOA gun, but if I fire just a few more rounds, suddenly my group opens up a bit. It's just to say that 3 round groups are basically luck, as opposed to what the rifle is actually reliably capable of. As for bolt guns, I can think of a number of reasons a barrel manufacturer would only fire three rounds through their bolt gun barrel, but the most prominent being what I just explained. If they only fire 3 rounds and get a quarter-MOA grouping, they can sell the barrel as "Quarter-MOA". It's why you hear these claims of "sub-MOA" guns all day long but as soon as the bullets meet paper, those claims go out the window. Haven't you heard of the 1-MOA-All-Day challenge going around? Forgotten weapons did a great video explaining it and showing it.
@jonathanmisetich1520 you can do ten rounds sure but you are then looking at heat deflection on the overwhelming majority of guns. I understood completely what you said, I have also seen the information from forgotten weapons about this. I don’t care if a manufacturer guarantees sub MOA or not, I want the gun the to shoot it. If a rifle doesn’t shoot it, I generally do not like it. The reason competition rifles have ultra heavy barrels is a the number of rounds in a course of fire can be increased without shot stringing due to the barrel heating up like a lighter contour. It’s important to know every rifles tipping point for heat but most is around 7 rounds, especially gas guns. How much will they deviate? Thats case by case basis. The level of deviation is more or less depending on how good the barrel is or not, high end barrels will deviate yet still remain effective for use under heavy firing schedules while low tier will not. As far as the 1 MOA all day challenge I am familiar depending on which variation we are talking about, it’s been around for a long time. I have 3 particular rifles in my safe I can guarantee I pull out, shoot sub MOA, use a load I know shoots well in them and more importantly I know exactly where my cold bore shot will land. I get rid of rifles which do not shoot sub MOA every time I take them out.
The site for that rifle is VKTR industries. I'm kind of torn between that one and the Mitchell def I want a great one and done home def and range mpr rifle
The PSAs like the 150GR ammo. Mine shoots 150 better than any other. Also, looks like the PSA needs the gas turned down a couple of notches. It was far too jumpy.
I am and I was surprised as well. I bought it because I expected elite level accuracy and I have yet to achieve that with it around 200 rounds in so far
Love your channel man a little suggestion if I may, a better rear bag setup will help a lot, rifle sinks a lot in the rear on recoil in video and will cause your high fliers, bipods on a bench with ar10’s is a no go, better off prone and load heavy on those pods or shoot a sand bag front rest if on bench, keep that trigger pinned after the shot breaks it helps tremendously with follow through and finger stays in sane position for all the rounds fired in the group. Both those rifles will shoot 1 moa or better with federal gold medal match and the proper technique
Appreciate the input and you following the channel. But both these rifles will not shoot 1 MOA or better with GMM and proper technique as they won’t do it on a lead sled either. Out of general curiosity, why not off the bench? The bipods are loaded and is easily visible along with pinning the trigger to the rear while shooting the comparison groups, you can even hear trigger reset. I’m all for tips and suggestions but for every tip we receive off the internet there is a contradiction to it three lines down. The bag has worked without flaw in every other video regardless of caliber or rifle but I’m always into better gear. Thanks for the input and watching
@@HuntFishShootChannel Just suggestions to try, I’ve had my ass kicked by Ar10’s in the past until I adopted different methods. Frank Gali with snipers hide channel has probably the best vids on RUclips on shooting gas guns accurately. A lead sled will only cause more issues with Ar10’s trust me been there before. Good luck man
I will second greasemonkeyviking. I own a Seekins SP10 and can get .75 moa regularly with FGMM 168 and 175. I shoot prone with the bipod loaded into my shooting mat and my rear bag is fairly firm to get a straight backward recoil. I have a twist rate of 1/11.25 though, AND I found it took 20 rounds before the groups really tightned up when I got it new. But, absolutely, AR10's seem to need a different technique. I know I had to modify my technique and I still pay close attention to how I handle the rifle when firing. These types of rifles aren't very forgiving. Thanks for taking the time to do the video and sharing it! Craig
if its straight out the box then i dont assume they're gonna be great but after a hundred or so rounds when the barrel gets broken in then it should do better
Match grade barrels rarely if ever need a break in. Regardless if a gun shoots 1.5 MOA it’s not all of a sudden going to shoot 3/4 MOA. Both guns were shot 20-30 rounds before the groups were done.
The psa might need to get “broken in”, & the criterion should’ve been good to go though. Maybe the weight or the round wasn’t best for the twist rate? Or maybe it just doesn’t like that particular load. I’ve had Tula 55gr group better than several different boxes of winchester from white box to some hunting loads that were like $2/round when I bought them.
Why does it need broken in? It’s a 416R 5r rifled Faxon barrel, meant to be a match barrel and even then I have shot over 50 rounds through it with no change. But we tried 165, 168, 175grain 175 grain. All weights that would be ideal for the barrel. All match grade. Unfortunately no Luck
Our economy is really fucked if $1500 is considered budget. That said, even if you dont like the Sabre, accuracy, setup, etc. It's still a solid starting platform to build on. Just swap barrels and maybe other parts, and you can fine tune this into a solid tack driver.
I own neither but it seems to me the ADM should be sub moa with match ammo and if it is not then you should be contacting them. The PSA Sabre is a first gen attempt that may need some polishing but I can tell you right off the rip that your picatinny rail is not attached properly which will and probably did cause a shift in each shot. It also looked like you fired the first shot when you wasn't expecting to lol. Maybe it was the way you edited but that isn't going to lean towards consistency either. If I were to try and give an honest review of these guns I would try to keep things as consistent as possible limit the variables you can control. Double check all attachments are torqued to spec and insure they are properly attached ;). I would also have a table stop to keep my bipod from moving forward after every shot. You should also keep data on which ammo brand and grain each rifle likes as some are very picky. If it was about the best possible groups I could get I would even consider using the Nightforce Scope and the Atlas Bipod on both rifles at least for testing groups and comparisons. It isn't a very apples to apples comparison when you use budget optics vs high end optics and bipods. That is not even considering the different triggers in each rifle which makes a difference especially if you are going back and forth between rifles. Overall for the money PSA did a good job with the Super Sass but further testing will tell the real story. As for the ADM rifle I have always heard great things about them and it seemed to be a let down based on your results. Maybe under better settings or even a different shooter the results would improve but I would be contacting them to see about sending it in because that is not sub moa.
Part of the vs. or comparison was more budget friendly vs high end. Unfortunately the ADM has no such accuracy guarantee and is hovering around 1 MOA with further testing. Just nothing great. Thanks for watching and the input!
As an armorer, mechanically speaking both rifles, lack the proper buffer system. If you were to put an actual rifle length AR 10 buffer kit on the PSA with an H3 buffer it would bring it to it cycling process with M 118 and M 118 LR. Remember that the reason why that PSA is recalling so much is because it has an H buffer on it. Eugene Stoner figured this out a long time ago when he created the original AR 10 and the SR 25 platform, a.k.a. the M1 10 my recommendation at least mechanically is to put of the proper buffer system on that PSA and maybe on also the ADM. You can look at a lot of the armorer manuals for the SR 25 and it will tell you exactly this.
The ADM shoots better with different ammos and the PSA, I don’t shoot it anymore. But both guns at around 100 rounds through them before the groups were done. In addition they are match grade barrels and in theory from both manufacturers they shouldn’t need broken in.
How many rounds went through the PSA prior to this video? I’ve read some reviews that mention 70+ rds and the barrel came around and started shooting 1 MOA.
Buys forged model instead of billet on the sass and then proceeds to complain about it not being billet or the ambi bolt release that the billet has lol
they can put the words "match grade" on any box of ammo, unless i personally know what's going into that round i dont call it match grade, i handload all my match grade ammo.
@@HuntFishShootChannel I'm definitely not suggesting I'm a capable shooter. The system is certainly more accurate than I am lol. I did run different ammo through it too, Hornady 178gr BTHP was also very accurate. I'm pretty tempted to try AAC offerings
I have a good amount of experience with Criterion 556 barrels and I have to say I was really surprised by this….. I built a LMT MARS H 6.5 CM and was kicking around getting a Criterion barrel made for it….. I’ll stick with my LMT barrel for now, try some Berger 175 gr and see what that does in both, if not send the gun to Criterion and ask Mike Ross to play around Willy’s it and do his magic
i had a ADM uic 308 and the accuracy was not good , i tried every load and match grade ammo , even used a leadsled and it just wasnt that good . i have a Aero precision i built in 308 and was more accurate , love the ADM receivers but the barrel was not great .
I see you using a shit bipod on the PSA cause I have the OG Sabre 10 billet and it shoots everything sub moa and has been out to 800 yards no issue many times
Considering this rifle is different in every aspect than the rifle you mention, I’m not sure what basis it shooting Sub MOA has. But happy to hear yours shoots well!
Ok we stated the why and also did the three rounds as show for how most manufacturers demonstrate sub MOA. If they won’t shoot sub MOA 3 shot groups they won’t do it in 5, 6 7 or 9 or 10.
12mins in and my takeaway thus far is that both rifles need their gas adjusted, a muzzle brake, and possibly some fiddling with buffer weights/springs 15 minutes in and I can say confidently that my Bear Creek Arsenal build is more accurate than both of these. Those groups are pathetic. The BCA is heavier, likely less reliable, and a lot cheaper; but hey I’ll take that win
The gas on the PSA could be a touch lower but I tried it and didn’t get lock back on every magazine. The gas on the ADM is fine and weighted perfectly. Outside of not shooting sub MOA the adm is very soft shooting and shoots great like an AR15.
The 168 A-MAX Hornady is accurate in every gun I shoot them in except for these unfortunately. Usually if I shoot a gun with that ammo and it doesn’t shoot well, it’s the gun not ammo.
High-end rifle with High-end scope vs cheaper rifle with cheaper scope. PSA did a good job.
Very true!
I love your content, and I have a ton of respect for your shooting ability. That said, I want to share something as I had a very similar experience the first time I shot my LMT MWS 20" 6.5 CM. During my first range outing, using high-quality otm Factory ammo, every 5 round group was between 1.5 - 3 MOA at 100 yards. I was beyond disappointed, as I had just spent over $3,000 for the rifle, and another $2500 for the optic setup
After doing some research, as difficult as it was to admit, the cause of the poor grouping was me. Initially I thought it had to be the rifle, because I routinely shoot sub .3's with my Accuracy International bolt action rifle. However, I have learned that heavy bolt action Precision rifles are a much more forgiving forgiving platform to shoot accurately
The AR-10 platform will exploit any flaw you have in your shooting fundamentals.
I find when I shoot with a soft shoulder, focus on trigger press and follow through, bring my thumb to the strong side, and keep the trigger pinned back until the recoil cycle is over, my groups improve significantly. I'm also consciously neutral on the bipod, I do not load it (especially with Atlas or that Magpul) . These have all helped me stay sub MOA with the exact same ammo when I focus on all of the above. Any lack of focus will produce a bad shot. When I do everything right, I now consistently shoot .5 MOA - .9 MOA with 130 gr Berger hybrids
I love to hate trying to shoot tiny groups with the AR-10
Thanks for the information, I appreciate the candor. I have shot it since then with no luck. But we shall see what happens!
Thanks for watching and the input!
@@HuntFishShootChannelI would try one other thing, try using a benchrest style front rest or at least a big heavy front bag along with a rear bag. Eliminate the bipod as a variable
Thanks for sharing these tips!
I has a similar experience when I got into ar308's. Mediocre groups despite shooting well with bolt guns and ar15's. Worked on my technique quite a bit and saw improvement. I didn't really do anything different as much as just doing it better and more consistent.
I also have better luck using a sandbag rather than a bipod. Not sure why because bipods have always worked well for me with bolt guns and 15's.
What I see is that if you want a pretty decent AR10, get the Sabre.
That would be a correct observation
Yep the Sabor !
Buy the absolute cheapest AR-10 rifle you can. Replace the barrel and Bolt. You will end up with an unbelievably accurate rifle for a great price
@@hawaiiangunner Yup, correct... If you're going to spend your cash. Barrel, Bolt, and Trigger.
Love mine.
I would take PSA as the winner. Almost same moa but alot difference in price.
Very true!
Same!
You don’t pay for accuracy when buying a more expensive rifle. You pay to not have tolerance stacking and malfunctions over the long term of the rifle. And build quality. Psa may be accurate but are poorly built, and have many out of spec parts, which causes tolerance stacking.
@@HatsuneM1ku01that’s true! But my wallet says otherwise
@HatsuneM1ku01 this happpens with PSA rather often
I don't feel so bad with my $600 gen2 pa10 now. I can by a lot m80 ball with that extra two grand.
Yes you can!
This! I just put together a dumpster fire of a Frankenstein AR10.
Took me a bit to get it running right. But I did. I have under 600 in the gun and another 200 for the scope (PSA daily deal, vortex 3-18)
After tweaking and finding the right ammo, she runs great and I can nail 6in plates at 600. So yeah, spend the extra money on ammo and getting better.
To be fair, the pa10 and the sabre ar-10s are two different tiers of quality
@@JulianLares The lower quality according to you but it shoots the same caliber, has better accuracy and is $2,000 cheaper. Mine has 100% reliability, so the "upper tier" juice ain't worth the squeeze.
@@davidwoolard1264 oh, I'm not saying the p AR-10 won't perform, I'm just saying that the $1300 sabre is different than the $800 AR-10 line, so it won't be exactly 1:1 with the super sass since it's a sabre line and not an AR-10 item
Got an ADM UIC 13.9 last year. Came with a loose barrel nut that was barely noticeable. Great gun once I took care of it. But whoa buddy, they got some folks to have a talk with in the offices.
Good to know! Thanks for sharing!
Loose barrel nuts and castle nuts seem to be a common theme. This is why I don't even fully trust companies like Daniel Defense, you really don't know what kind of effort went into the rifle. This is why I put together my own rifles so I can get the exact torque spec, surface prepped screws and loctite etc.
I had a buddy that had a higher end AR that just wouldn't run. It turned out that the screws in his gas block had been stripped.
10:31 The bipod rail isn't connected. I'm sure it doesn't hurt anything but you may want to be aware it flex'd and pulled away from the handguard for just a moment
Thank you for the heads up!
Might be interesting reaching out to criterion actually, they’re crazy about tolerance stacking, your bcg, bolt head, head spacing everything. They might be able to point you in a better direction to tighten up that ADM.
I'd definitely reach out to them as well. Currently waiting to get my upper ADM from them because I was getting poor accuracy. Ended up being a bad bolt which caused damage to the barrel extension. Waiting to hear back on how it shoots once they get it back together but was told they will get it shooting how it should
I feel your frustration. About to go zero the PSA 10A1. I'll let you know how that does.
I don’t own the rifle anymore. I thought it would be good to suppress and it was a train wreck.
@HuntFishShootChannel I may see what you mean. After tuning the rifle, it was slightly under gassed with out at suppressor and over gassed with the suppressor. But was 100% functional for 200rds.
@MissouriMan yeah essentially. I couldn’t get it tuned well. And then when I had it tuned to be 99% reliable, their trigger they claim is as good as a Geissele, wouldn’t reset.
@@HuntFishShootChannel oh damn. Yea I did go through the trigger group and polished everything up. It was rough in areas. Didnt have that problem though.
Thank you for being honest and bringing us amazing much needed content.
Thank you! And thanks for watching!
This video proves everything I've always thought about 308 gas rifles. I'm in no way trying to be a wise guy or cut down either of those rifles. I'd love to have either one. The Hide recently did a video on a 308 gas rifle that he re-barreled with a BCA 20" CHF that he bought for 129 bucks. At 110 yards off the bench, Federal Blue Box Hunting Ammo shot a solid 1 inch group on 4 out of 5 shots. He threw one which opened the group up to less than 2". Next up Gold Medal Match, about a 1 1/2" group if I recall correctly. He shot a third ammo that was less stellar but still did as good or better than these two rifles you shot overall. I believe his trigger was a milspec as well. I have nothing against either rifle you shot. They're both superb looking. On any given day, anyone with lots of trigger time behind the 308 can have a great day or a poor day when it comes to shooting groups. I wouldn't pay what they ask for either one of yours. Besides the fact that I live in Illinois, and we can no longer legally purchase anything AR platform related, including parts, it doesn't matter much any way. It sucks and I'm sure you've noticed the huge downward direction of gun crime in Chitown since the new law took effect on 1/2023. (LOL, that's sarcasm)
You could go back out there and repeat the same test another day and get stellar results out of one or both. The only thing I couldn't help but notice, both of your rifles looked to be a bit over gassed based on the ejection pattern. I think a slight adjustment on the gas blocks on both might tighten things up if you try this again. To be fair, I'd also do 5 shot groups myself. The PSA rifle seemed to kick like a mule compared to your ADM as well. One last thing. I bought an ADM QD mount. It's great and does a fantastic job at holding my Vortex scope which I transfer from rifle to rifle when I change calibers. One day about 5 years ago I saw a deep sale on the Burris QD mounts. Just under a c-note each delivered. I bought a pair so I could try them. I wanted to stop the insanity of having to re zero every time I switched rifles. I'm pleasantly surprised that over the years, these have served me very well and do an amazing job. Sorry for the short book comment, I just felt like bloviating a bit after seeing this very cool and honest test. I appreciate guys like you who don't sugar coat results, it's very refreshing these days here on YT. Cheers and safe shooting.
Thanks for putting up the video. No offense intended (this is an industry wide problem), but if we're going to compare 2 guns, lets only compare 2 guns. Have everything be the same: scope, mounts, bipod, maybe even muzzle brakes. That way, it is truly the guns being compared. Also, some additional ranges would be nice. A lot more can be seen at 700 yards than 100. Again, no offense intended- I don't have the money to put up a video comparing those 2 guns. But that is also because if I can't do it right, I'm not doing it. You can pay a gunsmith to add an ambi bolt release to the PSA for A LOT less than the cost difference between those 2 rifles...
The difference was purposely, one set up with no budget and the other on a budget. Hence the purpose of the title. It demonstrated our suspicions, money doesn’t guarantee some huge difference in performance. Than you for insight and opinions!
I'm still watching the video, so maybe I'm off base but If a rifle has poor groups at 100, they only spread 7x or more ar 700
Honesty what a breath of fresh air!!! Great video, subscribed!!!
Thank you! You can expect that all the time here!
My PSA shoots 150gr cor-lokt sub-moa. Shoots hornady black 168 in a 3 inch group. I want to test more loads, but sometimes your rifle chooses a load it likes and thats just what you go with!
Is it this model?
Honestly appreciate the honest accuracy review
Thank you for watching! Much appreciated!
My Palmetto PA 10 Gen 3 rocks.
1 moa with Freedom Munitions.
.5 with M118
Best groups. I think I was shooting 1.5 moa for the first 100 rounds, then I started getting tighter groups.
17 gas positions so I can tune down and not need a muzzle brake.
$600 if you time with daily deal.
I've been rocking the 20 inch for a year, and I just received a 16 inch upper to swap in for a battle rifle configuration.
I can't imagine the Saber line being much better. There's just not that much room for improvement. The color is awesome, but I'm not paying twice the money just for FDE.
Just some content advice when comparing guns. As a few other’s advised, show the target when shooting. Get a target camera showing your shots and map the different products on the target. Advice to all , gas guns are a different animal for accuracy due to the expelled gas and different gas systems in play. When you get an accurate load that works stop there! Probably need to reload your own to work as well! My Many years in experience for Mil/Law and Comp
Have seen this as well as so many other variables. Enjoyed your content and good editing! Godspeed
Comp
Thank you for the input and watching
A good alternative to these AR10s is the seekins SP10. I've gotten better groups from ball ammo than what's shown in this video. Floats around 1" with fed gmm 175gr sometimes under some over.
I need an SP10 in my life!
I don't know if both those guns were new out of the box or not but putting one hundred rounds through a gun before testing accuracy is the best policy. Of course, you will want to take your time and clean the barrel between every five rounds through the break-in period then retest. I bet both rifles will shoot much better groups.
Yeah I don’t subscribe to that break in policy for any of my guns. but they have several rounds through each with little change
Without really getting into it I think this is a pretty good representation… I don’t think expecting 1.5-2 MOA is too much to ask for how this shooting went down. With time/break in they should get better. With ammo testing they should get better, but unless you’re really wanting an AR10 I wouldn’t expect 1 MOA. Just me though. Thanks for the review.
Thank you and thanks for watching!
Thanks For The Honesty..... An Endangered Trait In Modernity....
I really wanted to see both of them shoot better, even shot them after this video hoping they were flukes but returned the same results. Fringe 1 MOA at best with 6 different common match ammos
@@HuntFishShootChannel Both Nice Weapons.... Must Be The Knights Secret Sauce ... Ha ha
@BadActor- maybe! This UIC is very nice but I haven’t found the right bullets which must be ultra special because I tried all the popular match ammos with 1-1.5 MOA results. Not what I want
@@BadActor- Seekins SP10 has entered the chatroom...
Need an SP10
I have one of psa's ar-10s. Not even the Sabre line. Bottom of the line. Minus gas/buffering/spring changes. It shoots good. Sub moa all day with the right ammos. I can't speak to the longevity or durability vs an adm. But the psa shoots accurate enough with federal and aac 150gr sp, and aac 168 and 175gr otm.
Glad to hear that yours does!
PSA reached out to us and said we could expect 1.2 MOA out of our rifle. Which is what it shoots
Love the honesty at the end.
Gotta stay honest!
Now that’s a no b.s. review if I’ve ever seen one, nicely done
Thank you!
#MakeGunReviewsHonestAgain2024
Man, I wanted at least one of those to shoot really well! That's the most important criteria for sure!
Agreed. They shoot ok but not great
Did we hear round count on each gun? I don't feel like I did. This certainly makes a difference
@jacobdeem8187 over 50 on the ADM and 20 on the Sabre before filming. It’s 2024 and a quality well made barrel especially one that is lapped, doesn’t need a break in. But if a gun shoots 1-1.5 MOA, it’s not all of a sudden going to shoot .5 with break in.
Do some gun barrels need a break in? Sure but not high end barrels.
@@HuntFishShootChannel some do some don't need a break in period. I'm not big on break in periods but I've seen plenty of barrels that speed up and tighten up with varying round counts.
@jacobdeem8187 agreed, it can be case by case basis no doubt
Does forged vs billet just boil down to forged is stronger but billet offers ambi controls?
That's a great question. I have zero clue. LOL
Thanks for an honest review
Customer reviews on PSA website say they had to break the Faxon barrel in. It takes about 100 rounds to break in.
there are reviews on their site, I have read them and talked to PSA. Was told to expect 1.2 MOA, so basically what was demonstrated
I always tell people the same thing here. It depends on your skill sets.
If you have no gunsmithing skill, pay the money for top end product. If you routinely break down your rifles blindfolded, custom design parts and accessories, and hand load your own ammo to the third decimal point on powder and bullet grain, well, then you can go cheaper and fix/alter what needs.
It's like buying a car. You don't buy a beater if you barely know where to check the oil.
That being said, I love my PA-10 Gen3 after I fixed the timing issue causing the firing pin to hit primer so hard it sometimes blew holes through the primer. Consistently shoots .5-.75 MOA at 100m.
Thanks for sharing
I did Billet Aero Precision with Ballistic Advantage barrel, sub MOA with factory Federal Gold match 168 all day long and it works out to 600 yards.
That’s great!
I think it may be the shooter
You should buy both rifles, buy all the ammo and do the same test, but don’t complain if you get similar results
Damn man, I think you struck a cord with your statement lol!
Not so much, but I own both and if you spent 4 grand on two bare rifles and they just don’t shoot that well, it’s disappointing. The ADM shoots really well suppressed but the PSA is a dumpster fire
Thanks for the honest comparison!
Thanks for watching
Nice looking rifles. Maybe it's my own fault but I couldn't get consistent groups with that magpul bipod. Just too loosey goosey. Theoretically, if you load it the same amount each shot, it shouldn't matter but i ended up tossing mine in a box and buying another Harris.
I also ended up shooting my 308 gas guns with sandbags rather than bipods most of the time. I almost always shoot my bolt guns from bipods but for some reason my gas guns seem to be a tad more consistent from sandbags. Probably something I'm doing wrong but either way I'm getting good groups.
Sooo... Just throwing this out. 1st thing I see is, new gun, regardless of how similar it is to anything else you shoot, you will need to train with it , get used to it, and you will see improvement. Gucci gun with Gucci ammo does not guarantee Gucci results. Next thing is, when I went to sniper school originally, I took one of the recommended guns which was a Remington 700 PSS. This was in the mid 1990's. At the recommendation of some of the old-school snipers of the day, I firelapped the barrel. It is a tedious process and it takes a long time to accomplish. I had a couple months, and to be honest, I cut some corners towards the end. What I saw was my skill improved through the process, and the firelapping improved the performance of the rifle. It was a solid sub moa with Fed match. The last thing, I found that shooting the rifle using the bipod, especially on hard/solid surfaces was not optimal. I started using sand bags, and in the field I would use my pack. I saw noticeable improvement in my accuracy. The bipod became a last ditch tool when the mission, or circumstances dictated it. I eventually had the gun accurized by a guy named Daniel Ross. It was a one hole gun after that. I was not able to shoot it as well as it could shoot.
Of course, all of this was my humble opinion, based on my experiences, and training at the time.
Incidentally, I own a PSA Super Sass. Just got it and have not had a chance to shoot it yet. I intend to firelap the barrel and see how it turns out.
Good stuff! I appreciate your presentation and your honesty.
What the f*ck does firelapping the barrel mean lol? I've never heard of that, I mean it sounds cool don't get me wrong but I've never once heard of that term before haha.
lol. i got excited when you talked about the PSA and got ready to talk about the competitor. Which budget rifle will go against the premium gun? Oh, the PSA was the budget one?!?!?! Sucks to be poor. lol
Wish you would have had an SR25 or LWRCI REPR on hand to set a standard to compare these to
Ain’t that the truth!
Lmt mars h
Is the PSA a new rifle/Did you break in the barrel? Nice video
It was new and barrel was broken in for the video depending on what someone thinks is the round count for that. Regardless it didn’t shoot great even after 200
Thanks for watching!
If you want a decent rifle. Build it.
I am doing further testing but I have a PSA Super SASS and I have got sub-MOA groups with custom loads using the Hornady 178gr BTHP bullets. My buddy shot my rifle but used Gold Medal Sierra MatchKing 308 Win 175 Grain bullets and also got sub-MOA groups. We are not pro shooters and like I said I will be doing more testing to measure the performance over time, but so far those two options have been great.
Edit: They do make a factory match round with that Hornady 178gr BTHP top, but I haven't tried the factory stuff yet.
I’m sure there is a load that works and shoots sub MOA but currently my rifle is having trigger reset issues. It’s an easy repair by me but unfortunately not acceptable for the price. PSA has shown me their guns are not for serious end users. They are range guns. They make some great stuff and make lots of mediocre stuff. Which is okay!
@@HuntFishShootChannel That is unfortunate. Sorry yours has given you so many issues. I just wanted to give you some ideas of decent rounds to look into for future investigations if you were interested.
I hope mine continues to not have issues! haha.
@adamjackson9365 I will continue I’m sure. The good news is the ADM shoots like a dream suppressed and I found some ammo which shoots a bit better
Thank you for the review
Thank you for watching
I've heard after around 100 rounds these precision barrels tighten up their groups. I've certainty experienced this with hunting rifles. I'd be interested to see a follow up. To be honest I've never actually seen a gas rifle shoot sub moa so 1.5 to 2 might be as good as it gets. Thanks for the honest review!
A follow up will happen if they get more accurate!
Some gas guns struggle for 1 MOA but these shouldn’t be. Thanks for watching!
Absolutely take care brother!
Depends a lot on the barrel AND the ammo. I've got a precision AR-15 that can do quarter MOA groups with handmade special ammo, 22" bull barrel etc.
Also I have a bear creek 6.5 creedmoor, the barrel looks like a sewer pipe, phosphated inside, also a bull barrel, that thing shoots half MOA groups all day long. Some of it is the luck of the draw on parts, buying more expensive stuff just gives you a better chance.
I think a 3 round group is an embarrassingly poor test to recommend a purchase on, you also don't in anyway discuss longevity, reliability, warranty, or use case
We specifically state why a three shot group was used. In addition 3 shot groups is the standard which 98% of rifles on the market are held to for accuracy guarantees. This is an initial review, not a long term use review. Use case? That’s up to the individual to make that choice.
Finally, if this test was poor, do you have an example of yourself making a similar video for us to see how it’s done? If so drop us a link 🙏
I wonder what the groups would have looked like if you had the same scope and bipod on each rifle. I have found that the bipod, in particular, makes a great deal of difference in the group size.
Well no different. I tried to help the PSA after the video and it just doesn’t get better. Regardless of what’s on it.
I've heard reports of people having loss of accuracy with a Warcomp. It doesn't matter unless your actually trying to build a gun for accuracy though.
Honestly bro... First these were the first shots for either gun? Do ya think maybe when ya get them broke in the barrels on both will geoup better?
Second my advise try the Federal 175 gr SMKs... After they are broke in they both ought to shoot that round pretty good, ive seen that load ran in a TON of AR10s and its the most consistently accurate box load
The PSA doesn’t shoot any better and when we showed the groups, that was after zero and 20-30 rounds through them. PSA actually reached out to us about this video and said we could expect 1.2 MOA accuracy out of the rifle, which it did do.
The adm actually shoots 168 Grain better than the 175 SMK GMM, but it does shoot a little better. Does it shoot like .5 or better, no it shoots .80 consistently.
Interesting. I have a Franken gun that is closer to the ADM than to the PSA. Mine has Criterion 16" barrel, Brownels BCG, forged receivers from wherever, Radian Raptor charging handle, Gieslie trigger and midwest industries handguard. The stock on mine is a carbine style Magpul, but it will get upgraded. It's scoped with a SFP 2.5-15 Trigicon Credo. I'm in it for around 1500 without the optic, but some of those parts were bought when things were hard to find and priced at a premium.
My results are similar to yours. Winchester M118 is shooting sub MOA to 2 MOA, and I have two 5 shot groups with Fed 165gr Berger that are .93 and 1.34. I'll have some more ammunition to work through this week. I have seen others remark that sometimes these rifles will settle in after 6 or 700 rounds. I'm probably still a bit shy of that.
600-700 rounds to get accuracy? Sweet Jesus lol
Any way we can see how a midwest industries rifle compares with their criterion barrel? Rifle is about $1700 i believe which seems like a pretty good deal from a fairly solid company but reviews are very seldom to find
The rifle is hard to find as well, but I’ll keep it in mind!
I really expected the PSA to get bashed in this video. So thanks for being honest. But I’m still not buying either gun. LOL. I have to much fun building them myself. And after your video it looks like I’m putting better guns together for cheaper.
Thanks for watching! No bashing here!
Dang it! I was hoping for the SASS to group better.
PSA reached out to us and they average 1.2 MOA so you are seeing near peak performance
I would not test for accuracy until you have at least 100 rounds through them. Even if it's M80 ball ammo. I've seen multiple Sabre 10 rifles shooting .75in moa at 100 yards. But they had a few hundred rounds through them. Also the PSA's seem to like Federal Gold Match 175gr or 168gr. To me that's the best factory load you can buy.
Accuracy testing continues and yet to see a change even after barrel “break in” on a premium barrel.
Funny. My 2003 vintage green Armalite AR10T shoots less than 1" groups - which was the norm for these rifles. I guess I'll keep shooting it and let people who buy "for looks" keep buying to look cool. Mean green still has no replacement.
💪💪💪
I hear a lot of complaints on the PSA not having ambi controls, they offer a billet option that has them. You just bought the wrong one if you wanted that.
No I just didn’t think billet model was work 2k. It’s grossly overpriced. it’s also not ambi like the ADM. it doesn’t feature ambi bolt lock.
Am I the only one that noticed the bipod rail on the PSA was loose while shooting? I feel like that might have contributed to the accuracy issues. I've been shooting a lot of .308 lately and my POF Revolution is just about at 1.25 MOA with the right ammo. I'm also doing 10 round groups though. 3 rounds just doesn't seem like enough to get a solid representation of the barrel's actual accuracy. I know that if I only fired 3 rounds with my POF, I could easily say it's sub-MOA. Last time I took it out, the first 6 rounds were touching and less than a half an inch. Regardless, the accuracy of that ADM is just unacceptable. I would show this video to them and see what's going on with the rifle cause a $3k rifle should shoot better than that.
Not loose at all. The Magpul bipod has significantly more flex and play than the atlas. Three rounds was used as it’s the standard for manufacturers to use for accuracy testing. Bolt guns have no issue reaching sub Moa if they are good rifles with 3 rounds but for some reason less than accurate ARs need 5 or more? The reality is if the gun can’t shoot sub Moa with 3 shots, it won’t do it in 5.
In regards to the ADM, I’m dissatisfied to say the least. I have shot it more since we filmed with the same results. There could be an ammo out there but I haven’t found it yet in any of the normal good shooting 308 stuff. Black hills will be next
@@HuntFishShootChannel I wasn't referring to the bipod, but the rail it's mounted on itself. I can literally see it separate from the handguard several times through the video while shooting.
As for the grouping, I don't think you understood what I said. I'm not saying the rifle would group tighter with a larger amount of bullets per grouping, if anything, it'd be even worse, but that'd be an accurate representation of what the rifle is actually doing. Everyone is moving to 10 round groups now because of what I explained. With my POF, if I do a 3 round group, I can practically stack the bullets on top of each other and claim I have a half-MOA gun, but if I fire just a few more rounds, suddenly my group opens up a bit. It's just to say that 3 round groups are basically luck, as opposed to what the rifle is actually reliably capable of.
As for bolt guns, I can think of a number of reasons a barrel manufacturer would only fire three rounds through their bolt gun barrel, but the most prominent being what I just explained. If they only fire 3 rounds and get a quarter-MOA grouping, they can sell the barrel as "Quarter-MOA". It's why you hear these claims of "sub-MOA" guns all day long but as soon as the bullets meet paper, those claims go out the window. Haven't you heard of the 1-MOA-All-Day challenge going around? Forgotten weapons did a great video explaining it and showing it.
@jonathanmisetich1520 you can do ten rounds sure but you are then looking at heat deflection on the overwhelming majority of guns. I understood completely what you said, I have also seen the information from forgotten weapons about this. I don’t care if a manufacturer guarantees sub MOA or not, I want the gun the to shoot it. If a rifle doesn’t shoot it, I generally do not like it.
The reason competition rifles have ultra heavy barrels is a the number of rounds in a course of fire can be increased without shot stringing due to the barrel heating up like a lighter contour. It’s important to know every rifles tipping point for heat but most is around 7 rounds, especially gas guns. How much will they deviate? Thats case by case basis. The level of deviation is more or less depending on how good the barrel is or not, high end barrels will deviate yet still remain effective for use under heavy firing schedules while low tier will not.
As far as the 1 MOA all day challenge I am familiar depending on which variation we are talking about, it’s been around for a long time. I have 3 particular rifles in my safe I can guarantee I pull out, shoot sub MOA, use a load I know shoots well in them and more importantly I know exactly where my cold bore shot will land. I get rid of rifles which do not shoot sub MOA every time I take them out.
I've got a gen 3 non Saber 20" model. It shoots better than I do.
That’s great!
Is that a Garmin Instinct 2? I have one and love it, great watch!
That’s the one! Still ticking, it’s about 5 years old now!
PS, sub'd because you're awesome man. Kudos for the frankness
We’re the winners. Thx for the warning
Big thing is its not a PSA barrel, but a Faxon match barrel
Truth!
Although not technically an AR10, the HK MR762a1 is a better rifle. Yes, it's also more expensive than either one of those.
No doubt that’s a great rifle. 💪
Great video. I appreciate your honesty on these rifles, Mike have you heard or know anything about the VK1 Ar15 that seems like a excellent rifle
I need to try one of those!
The site for that rifle is VKTR industries. I'm kind of torn between that one and the Mitchell def I want a great one and done home def and range mpr rifle
Only problem is have to get dig parts and not easily interchangeable or at least when I looked last
80% a billet piece, find a quality barrel, good bolt and a decent upper for 1/2 of the price :)
Great video brother ! Keep getting it !
Thanks!
The PSAs like the 150GR ammo. Mine shoots 150 better than any other.
Also, looks like the PSA needs the gas turned down a couple of notches. It was far too jumpy.
That’s not what PSA told us. I don’t own the PSA anymore but thanks for the input
That's the worst performance I've seen from the ADM. It is generally level with the DD, PWS, and Seekins. Great video.
I am and I was surprised as well. I bought it because I expected elite level accuracy and I have yet to achieve that with it around 200 rounds in so far
Love your channel man a little suggestion if I may, a better rear bag setup will help a lot, rifle sinks a lot in the rear on recoil in video and will cause your high fliers, bipods on a bench with ar10’s is a no go, better off prone and load heavy on those pods or shoot a sand bag front rest if on bench, keep that trigger pinned after the shot breaks it helps tremendously with follow through and finger stays in sane position for all the rounds fired in the group. Both those rifles will shoot 1 moa or better with federal gold medal match and the proper technique
Appreciate the input and you following the channel. But both these rifles will not shoot 1 MOA or better with GMM and proper technique as they won’t do it on a lead sled either.
Out of general curiosity, why not off the bench? The bipods are loaded and is easily visible along with pinning the trigger to the rear while shooting the comparison groups, you can even hear trigger reset. I’m all for tips and suggestions but for every tip we receive off the internet there is a contradiction to it three lines down.
The bag has worked without flaw in every other video regardless of caliber or rifle but I’m always into better gear.
Thanks for the input and watching
@@HuntFishShootChannel Just suggestions to try, I’ve had my ass kicked by Ar10’s in the past until I adopted different methods. Frank Gali with snipers hide channel has probably the best vids on RUclips on shooting gas guns accurately. A lead sled will only cause more issues with Ar10’s trust me been there before. Good luck man
@greasemonkeyviking384 thanks for our the info! Snipers hide is fantastic 🙌
I will second greasemonkeyviking. I own a Seekins SP10 and can get .75 moa regularly with FGMM 168 and 175. I shoot prone with the bipod loaded into my shooting mat and my rear bag is fairly firm to get a straight backward recoil. I have a twist rate of 1/11.25 though, AND I found it took 20 rounds before the groups really tightned up when I got it new. But, absolutely, AR10's seem to need a different technique. I know I had to modify my technique and I still pay close attention to how I handle the rifle when firing. These types of rifles aren't very forgiving.
Thanks for taking the time to do the video and sharing it!
Craig
if its straight out the box then i dont assume they're gonna be great but after a hundred or so rounds when the barrel gets broken in then it should do better
Match grade barrels rarely if ever need a break in. Regardless if a gun shoots 1.5 MOA it’s not all of a sudden going to shoot 3/4 MOA. Both guns were shot 20-30 rounds before the groups were done.
Should have had a nightforce on the Sabre as well. Good video
Thank you and that would be a waste of a nightforce. Also this was to demonstrate budget vs high end
@@HuntFishShootChannelgotcha man good video.
@mrhunt0341 thank you!
The psa might need to get “broken in”, & the criterion should’ve been good to go though. Maybe the weight or the round wasn’t best for the twist rate? Or maybe it just doesn’t like that particular load. I’ve had Tula 55gr group better than several different boxes of winchester from white box to some hunting loads that were like $2/round when I bought them.
Why does it need broken in? It’s a 416R 5r rifled Faxon barrel, meant to be a match barrel and even then I have shot over 50 rounds through it with no change.
But we tried 165, 168, 175grain 175 grain. All weights that would be ideal for the barrel. All match grade. Unfortunately no
Luck
Our economy is really fucked if $1500 is considered budget. That said, even if you dont like the Sabre, accuracy, setup, etc. It's still a solid starting platform to build on. Just swap barrels and maybe other parts, and you can fine tune this into a solid tack driver.
Agreed. It is a shame in the grand scheme of things
I own neither but it seems to me the ADM should be sub moa with match ammo and if it is not then you should be contacting them. The PSA Sabre is a first gen attempt that may need some polishing but I can tell you right off the rip that your picatinny rail is not attached properly which will and probably did cause a shift in each shot. It also looked like you fired the first shot when you wasn't expecting to lol. Maybe it was the way you edited but that isn't going to lean towards consistency either.
If I were to try and give an honest review of these guns I would try to keep things as consistent as possible limit the variables you can control. Double check all attachments are torqued to spec and insure they are properly attached ;). I would also have a table stop to keep my bipod from moving forward after every shot. You should also keep data on which ammo brand and grain each rifle likes as some are very picky. If it was about the best possible groups I could get I would even consider using the Nightforce Scope and the Atlas Bipod on both rifles at least for testing groups and comparisons. It isn't a very apples to apples comparison when you use budget optics vs high end optics and bipods. That is not even considering the different triggers in each rifle which makes a difference especially if you are going back and forth between rifles.
Overall for the money PSA did a good job with the Super Sass but further testing will tell the real story. As for the ADM rifle I have always heard great things about them and it seemed to be a let down based on your results. Maybe under better settings or even a different shooter the results would improve but I would be contacting them to see about sending it in because that is not sub moa.
Part of the vs. or comparison was more budget friendly vs high end. Unfortunately the ADM has no such accuracy guarantee and is hovering around 1 MOA with further testing. Just nothing great. Thanks for watching and the input!
As an armorer, mechanically speaking both rifles, lack the proper buffer system. If you were to put an actual rifle length AR 10 buffer kit on the PSA with an H3 buffer it would bring it to it cycling process with M 118 and M 118 LR. Remember that the reason why that PSA is recalling so much is because it has an H buffer on it. Eugene Stoner figured this out a long time ago when he created the original AR 10 and the SR 25 platform, a.k.a. the M1 10 my recommendation at least mechanically is to put of the proper buffer system on that PSA and maybe on also the ADM. You can look at a lot of the armorer manuals for the SR 25 and it will tell you exactly this.
I agree with you, which is likely why the ADM uses an H3 buffer and also shoots softer. Thanks for sharing the input!
@@HuntFishShootChannel you are most welcome, kind, sir
Maby both havent reached their barrel break in period?
The ADM shoots better with different ammos and the PSA, I don’t shoot it anymore. But both guns at around 100 rounds through them before the groups were done. In addition they are match grade barrels and in theory from both manufacturers they shouldn’t need broken in.
How many rounds went through the PSA prior to this video? I’ve read some reviews that mention 70+ rds and the barrel came around and started shooting 1 MOA.
Close to that, it still doesn’t shoot better.
The uic-10a is ambi bolt release. How old is that rifle? And non sub moa on maych grade. Pretty sus as the kids would say
What??? I said the rifle is an Ambi bolt release and bolt lock. I’ll tell you what is sus, your listening ability
Buys forged model instead of billet on the sass and then proceeds to complain about it not being billet or the ambi bolt release that the billet has lol
Ive read that you need to at least put a 100 rounds through each rifle to get an accurate grouping. Kind of a break-in period.
No kitten? Thanks for the info
Nobody is the winner. I haven’t seen ar10 performance and reliability that has made me want to purchase one.
It’s feeling like that
What’s wrong with the sig tread ar10 with a vortex viper.. heavy but does what is suppose to do
Lmt mars H
Lwrc will change ur mind
they can put the words "match grade" on any box of ammo, unless i personally know what's going into that round i dont call it match grade, i handload all my match grade ammo.
They can do that you are right but the brands used are well regarded for consistent accuracy and or tolerance
damn, i put a 20inch Criterion chrome lined barrel in my PA10 gen2 with the JP headspaced bolt. Rounds touch with m80 ball if im doing my part.
That is awesome! Maybe I get there one day with an ammo I choose but not right now
@@HuntFishShootChannel I'm definitely not suggesting I'm a capable shooter. The system is certainly more accurate than I am lol. I did run different ammo through it too, Hornady 178gr BTHP was also very accurate. I'm pretty tempted to try AAC offerings
I have a good amount of experience with Criterion 556 barrels and I have to say I was really surprised by this….. I built a LMT MARS H 6.5 CM and was kicking around getting a Criterion barrel made for it….. I’ll stick with my LMT barrel for now, try some Berger 175 gr and see what that does in both, if not send the gun to Criterion and ask Mike Ross to play around Willy’s it and do his magic
@LONEWOLF_LCD I have a few different ammos I’ll have to try and get because many of the usually 308 match ones haven’t worked
IMO… I’d still get the PSA but I’d swap that barrel out for a Mos Tek
Roger that
Is it bad that I know PSA, but I’ve never heard of adm? I own Seekins and LWRC gas guns, but am not familiar with adm…
Not bad but very surprised lol
i had a ADM uic 308 and the accuracy was not good , i tried every load and match grade ammo , even used a leadsled and it just wasnt that good . i have a Aero precision i built in 308 and was more accurate , love the ADM receivers but the barrel was not great .
Good to know! Thanks for sharing!
It’s a law of diminishing returns.
Yes
a lot of weight at the end on that bipod, putting tension on the barrel nut the handguard is bolted to.
Shouldn’t be an issue, it’s not that much pressure or enough to cause deflection
I see you using a shit bipod on the PSA cause I have the OG Sabre 10 billet and it shoots everything sub moa and has been out to 800 yards no issue many times
Considering this rifle is different in every aspect than the rifle you mention, I’m not sure what basis it shooting Sub MOA has. But happy to hear yours shoots well!
Great video
Thank you!
3 round groups is barely an accuracy test…
Ok we stated the why and also did the three rounds as show for how most manufacturers demonstrate sub MOA. If they won’t shoot sub MOA 3 shot groups they won’t do it in 5, 6 7 or 9 or 10.
Put a bag under front end and adjust the gas system
👍
12mins in and my takeaway thus far is that both rifles need their gas adjusted, a muzzle brake, and possibly some fiddling with buffer weights/springs
15 minutes in and I can say confidently that my Bear Creek Arsenal build is more accurate than both of these. Those groups are pathetic. The BCA is heavier, likely less reliable, and a lot cheaper; but hey I’ll take that win
The gas on the PSA could be a touch lower but I tried it and didn’t get lock back on every magazine. The gas on the ADM is fine and weighted perfectly. Outside of not shooting sub MOA the adm is very soft shooting and shoots great like an AR15.
Great job 👍
Thank you! 🙏
My super sass groups closed right up at about 90 rds in
That’s good, mine didn’t.
Try a JP Enterprises compete AR-10 rifle it’s on another level with gold metal match.
X ring did a review on that and he was less than impressed.
PSA gen 3 ar 10 6.5 creed is a great rifle shoots sub MOA
I’d like to see cause that’s one of my cheapies and I don’t got the range past 50 yards
Should have used The same bipod on both
No. The video was purposefully meant to demonstrate high end vs cheaper!
Thanks for no
Sugar coating and saying how it is
💪
Bummer Dude! Hopefully the ADM will improve as it gets broken in.
One will hope!
I shoot an 18 inch and I get those groups with 150 grain. I'm yet to try match ammo 168 /175 grain.
The 168 A-MAX Hornady is accurate in every gun I shoot them in except for these unfortunately. Usually if I shoot a gun with that ammo and it doesn’t shoot well, it’s the gun not ammo.
@@HuntFishShootChannel I'm going to try some match ammo and see what I can do with my aero
Can someone explain why it's so hard to find sub MOA AR10s?
Because they have to be built to certain standards that are usually designated to custom or high end manufacturers
Ear pro your using and what's the NRR on those?
29 and they are Axil XCors
Thanks brother 😊