It would have been interesting to have a non-dunder version as a control. I know it's a lot of work to do proper comparisons so we appreciate your efforts anyway.
I had the same idea once I finished these experiments! I'm about to start another round of dunder experiments and I'm going to make sure to do a batch without any dunder. So stay tuned!
Outstanding experimentation! I just finished distilling my first rum (Panela, Molasses and Omega Brett Blend #3), and made a large enough ferment to go through 5 stripping runs. The first was virgin, but the remaining runs got a gallon of fresh dunder, including the final spirit run. I'd say it's fairly decent, though I also went deeper than I should into the tails. Now I have 16 liters of dunder made up of both the stillage and the trub from the bottom of the fermenter. I'm getting excited to give this another go! Just came across your channel earlier today and quickly subscribed!
That's very cool that you used the Omega Brett Blend #3! How did the fermentation go with that? I haven't done any rums with dunder in the still, however, I'm planning to soon! Thanks for subscribing!
@@RobynSmithPhD fermentation was good. I under pitched with just 2 packs, and at 33°C. The fermenter was covered, but outdoors without additional heat. Fermentation time was 17 days. 1.070sg, 1.003fg
That's amazing! I've never been able to get a rum wash that dry, but I think that's because of all the unfermentable sugars in molasses (I use all molasses for the sugar source).
I'm not ready to start my home distillation journey quite yet (just retired from fuel ethanol), but am so glad I found this channel. Always thought I was a gin guy, but after a trip to Puerto Rico and my wife's stint in the Caribbean, rum seems like a fun challenge. I'll be back in about a year. 😀
@@RobynSmithPhD I got out my notebook and my first batch was Dec 26 1985 with the book: The Complete Joy of Home Brewing by Charlie Papazian. Just gonna say, IPA's have come a long way. I kind of stopped when microbreweries and work took off, so I could now find and afford good beer plus it was time for a new challenge. Now, A couple years devoted to making a really good rum seems like a good use of my time.
interesting! I'm currently fermenting a 30% 18 month old dunder batch, also slowww fermentation. Hope you'll keep a bucket and do a long aged video someday. Cheers!
Fascinating episode! The potential of live Dunder in the fermentation seems too great, to just add to the Still as some do. As always, I appreciate your scientific approach. Its never enough to Know, but to Know why.
I agree! I think the microbes in the dunder allow even more flavor to be produced during fermentation rather than just adding dunder into the still. It seems like my dunder experiments might be never ending haha
Really interesting videos! Are you only using dunder in your fermentations? I have only been using dunder in my spirit runs, never had the guts to introduce live dunder to my fermentations :D It would be really cool to see a comparison between dunder in fermentation and dunder in spirit run.
Thanks so much! Yes, I'm just using dunder in my fermentations, but I would really like to do that side-by-side comparison. I think my next batch of rums will be one with dunder in the fermentation, one with dunder in the spirit run, and one with both! How much dunder do you add to your spirit run?
Great I´m really looking forward to see your results! :) I have only tried with 20% so far and compared to my very first run without any dunder at all it made a huge difference! Sure some of the difference may be due to me being a better distilller now compared to what I was during the first run, but I do believe that the biggest difference lies in the dunder. I noticed a great difference the very second I poured the dunder into the low wines, a bit funky smelling low wine combined with some fruity and some almost cheesy dunder instantly hit my nose with that well known rum aroma. @@RobynSmithPhD
@@RobynSmithPhD Sweet Im looking forward to it :) But I actually realized that I have used dunder in the fermentation as well, although only fresh straight from the still. But you are using live dunder right? Or what you call muck.
Yes, I'm using live dunder... I don't really consider it muck because it is mostly just stillage, but it definitely blurs the lines between dunder and muck haha.
Great stuff! I have a dunder bucket, but tend to chicken out and use fresh dunder /stillage, appreciate your bravery 😂👍 I never go over 30%, as the ferment stalls, seems to correspond with your findings? Love from Norway ❤
Just found your channel today... definitely subscribing. 😀 Haven't done any distilling at all as it's illegal here in Sweden so I'm into beer instead. Might be able to hypothetically leave it to the alcohol fairy. 🤔😂 Been interested in doing a rum for some time. When ageing the dunder... how long has it been sitting for before you use it?
@@RobynSmithPhD I'm sharing the hobby with a friend and we mostly brew pale ales. But we have an oatmeal stout almost ready for bottling, we also did an awesome raspberry wheat a few weeks ago. So we're not really stuck on one type. We're actually making our biggest brew tomorrow, 55 litres for his upcoming wedding. I'll be making a "hard seltzer" with passion fruit as well. So now you have to start experimenting with blending aged and new dunder for the perfect rum? 😀
@@kristoffer-robinlotze7273 mmmm I love oatmeal stouts! That's so fun! I made a rye whiskey for my sister's wedding and it was such a cool thing to have! Now I have to make a new batch of rum with even older dunder! But yes, I definitely need to play around with blending the batches!
Haha Scott you never disappoint! After a couple of vintages fermenting and aging wine in a concrete tank, I've really wanted to try aging spirits in a small concrete tank!
@@RobynSmithPhD I did a trial with chardonnay in stainless steel and concrete, treaded the same as much as possible... The concrete chard was much more fruit forward on the nose and palate with a soft round mouth feel. I've also aged unoaked cab franc in stainless and concrete. It seems to make the fruit more dark and dense rather than bright red fruit, also is a little more dense on the nose moving to more fresh dirt coffee blackberries. I think all of these things are probably a result of entrained O2 and micro ox coming through the walls, effecting fermentation and aging.
@@jessealexander4329 that sounds delicious! Yeah, it must be the fact that the wine can breathe in the concrete. It would be very cool to see how that impacts spirits!
That video was rum porn to my ears. Don't worry Jerry its her relationship with rum that is doin it to me. The bug spray is the business when ageing, it adds both tropical flavours and rich dark cherry flavours. Like you mentioned I'm one of those weaker spirits that are not game to do live dunder fermentation instead I boil my dunder with the previous trub and add that to the fermenter. As for aging I would suggest three months on US white oak and then a month on used sherry cask. You can get both in cube form online and just drop six or seven cubes per liter. If you ask I could send you my ebay links for these but its probably cheaper and easier in the US then here in Oz. If you feel you want it to mellow then leave jars open and put some material over the top to stop bugs. Compost flies and the dreaded vinegar fly can destroy your drink. You might lose a little to angels but its worth it. If you want it sweeter and richer then go 52% in the jars or if want it more spicy then go 60%. I wouldn't go higher then that for a rum. In fact with the bug spray factor proof down to 55% or below. When your proof down be careful not to proof down to quickly. I know this sound silly but there is some real chemistry behind it, Saponification reactions can occur if you proof down too quickly or to hot and its bad. think soap, vinegar and methanol flavours. Just keep both water and rum cool and mix slowly.
also if you have too much funkiness (think 14 year olds socks that he has worn all week) char a few pieces of wood if you can, blow torch or gas stove. It will filter some the longer chain fatty acids that refuse to esterferfy (dont think thats a word, but it is a thing, think thats a sign ive had too much rum). 🙂
Wow, thanks for all the suggestions! I'm glad to hear that the bug spray note ages well! Where do you order your staves from? I'd like to check that out!
i just did a rum. i used my dunder in fermenting. i went about 1/3 dunder in my wash, half a gallon of molassas and two packs of brown sugar. might have overshot on the gravity. my meter broke so i winged it. fermenting along. taking longer than i expected. also used original yeast, so maybe that's why it's taken so long to kick off. but it's working now.
Hello! I just found your channel and have really enjoyed your content. Question regarding your finished gravity. Do you know what your PH was? Did you use Glucoamolyse to convert the complex sugars to simple sugars? Keep up the good work!
I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying my content! I don’t know what the pH was… it’s possible that I recorded it, but I’m not sure off the top of my head. And I didn’t use any enzymes in the fermentation. I accepted that the molasses wouldn’t ferment out dry and I was okay with that. Do you use enzymes in your rum washes?
@@RobynSmithPhD I do use glucoamolyse and it ferments out dry every time, but I also haven't used dunder yet. I know that the dunder adds quite a bit of acidity to the wash and was just curious if yours stopped fermenting because of a PH crash or if it stopped because it fermented out all the simple sugars and left the complex sugars behind. I would imagine that it was due to a PH crash and not a sugar issue due to your final gravity was rather high and the fact that dunder brings in the high acidity. Also, I understand that you posted this video a year ago and I can't even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday let alone what I did to a wash 12 months ago 🤣 Thanks for the reply!
@@LuckyD13 I think you're right that the pH impacted how much the wash actually fermented... my washes that used 20% dunder were able to ferment out a lot lower than the washes with 40% dunder. So my guess is that it was the pH and/or the competing microbes (since I used live dunder)... like anything, it was probably a combo of both. I wonder if my washes using 20% dunder would ferment out dry with the addition of glucoamylase! It's definitely something to look into!
@@RobynSmithPhD without checking PH, I think it would be hard to pinpoint the reason for it to not be fermenting completely. Due to the fact that as the wash ferments, the PH drops and stops the yeast from performing, there would be both complex sugars and simple sugars that the yeast has not consumed. So I would guess that it is a PH issue that is keeping the finished gravity so high, and if the PH is raised, it would then need the glucoamolyse to convert the complex sugars for a completely dry fermentation. . But this is all just speculation on my part. I also don't know how the live microbes from the dunder changes the fermentation with regards to the yeast doing its job. I'll give it a shot myself and see what happens! Keep up the good work. We need more people in this hobby.
@@LuckyD13 I plan to get a pH meter that I feel confident in... I currently use the strips, which means I'm going based off of color and I'm never totally confident in my reading because of how the dark color of my molasses wash impacts the color of the strips. The other microbes provide competition for the yeast that I pitch (distillers yeast) and that can slow down and even halt fermentation due to a number of different things. Lemme know how using live dunder impacts your fermentations! And thanks! This is a great hobby to have!
In my reading about making whisky, they say that lactobacillus gives a butterscotch, butter or creamy flavor. I haven't tried yet but I have some dried yogurt culture that I'm thinking about trying in a fermentation. The books say some whisky distilleries add lacto to the fermention on purpose. Bug spray sounds kind of scary though. Heads maybe?
You're right that lactobacillus can add some nice creamy/butterscotch notes and some distilleries might use yeast blends that include some lacto spp. However, lacto can also result in some undesirable flavors and is sometimes seen as a spoilage microbe. You just need to be mindful of how much lacto you're introducing! Let me know the results if you add in a yogurt culture! And I think the bug spray notes are mostly coming from the high ABV, but it's possible that I should have taken a slightly larger heads cut.
Another way of getting buttery flavours is to warm up your mash to 50-60 degrees Celsius. Let it cool down naturally overnight, then do your stripping run. Butter for days!
I boil the dunder with a little water before adding molasses. I want the acids that the bugs have produced, not the bugs themselves competing with the bread yeast I use. I correct pH before pitching, but only up to the low 5s and check/adjust during fermentation so it doesn't go below 5. I have thought about pitching some 'live' dunder as fermentation is winding down, or even pitching a little Kveik near the end to dig for more fruity esters.
I bet pitching some live dunder at the end of fermentation would cause the yeast to upregulate ester production! Let me know if you try that and how it turns out! I've never worked with kveik... I typically use distillers yeast for my rum ferments, but I wonder how a molasses wash fermented with kveik would taste! What made you choose bread yeast for fermentation?
@@RobynSmithPhD It just so happens that a dunder run is winding down now (1.018-ish, they never get to .000) and have some new growth flora in my dunder from a catch jar I had in the garden last week. I'll toss a bit in now and see what happens. A couple forum posts strongly recommended bread yeast for rum so I've always used King Arthur's or Red Star bread yeast. DADY for corn, and 1118 for neutral. ABV from a rum wash isn't that high anyway and I suspect that bread yeasts are more tolerant of difficult conditions and warm temperatures. If fermentation stops short I hit it with a good toss of DADY to dry it out. I'm new to kveik, haven't run it yet but have been reading and asking questions, anxious to give it a try. In Jesse's (StillIt) most recent Patreon QnA I asked about using kveik for rum and he said to expect dried fruit flavors, not bright and citrus. I got a separate text reply from a guy on Patreon but don't have it handy right now. He said "Do it."
My rum washes also finish in the 1.013-1.018 range at the lowest. It's just the nature of using molasses! I have also seen bread yeast recommended for rum washes, but I can't remember if the recommendation was accompanied by an explanation as to why bread yeast was better than DADY. I wonder if it's slightly slower than DADY and therefore allows for more flavor development. I've always used DADY, but that's just because I have a big bag on hand. I second the person who told you to go for it with the kveik yeast!
Hi Robyn. Another awesome video! I am just in learning phase of all this. I have watched several of your great videos as well as some by others. Dunder is a daunting concept for me. I love rum, but never knew the kind of Island funk that went into making it. From your microscope video, it looks like the only thing stopping it from killing someone outright is the fact it's distilled. What is the difference between fermenting with dunder and distilling with dunder? Would you ever, for example, use aged dunder in the fermentation and then fresh dunder in the distilling process? What would you consider a "deal breaker" with your dunder? How funky would be too funky? Like if you saw a trout jumping in it or something 😂
Thank you so much! I'm glad to hear you enjoy the videos! Don't let dunder overwhelm you... it's simply the stillage leftover after distillation no matter what anyone tells you. Although my dunder bucket includes some lees from my fermentations. It's not really something that's studied anymore, so there seem to be a lot of unknowns and even more folklore about it. Muck is what I find daunting! I don't *think* dunder would kill anyone, but it would probably make you sick. Still, I would not advise consuming it! The difference between fermenting and distilling with dunder is when the dunder is added. Adding it during fermentation allows any microbes that are in the dunder to participate in fermentation. Also, the chemical composition of the dunder will have an effect on fermentation. This will impact the flavors produced during fermentation and the alcohol yield. When you add dunder during distillation, those microbes aren't able to participate in fermentation at all. The additional flavors that you get from distilling with dunder is coming directly from the dunder. So ultimately, distilling with dunder allows for more controlled flavor addition, while fermenting with dunder creates less predictable flavor addition. You could totally do both! I'm just not sure exactly what the outcome would be. How funky is too funky? Hahaha great question! I think I would have to dump the dunder bucket if the smell was just absolutely awful and/or if there was a fruit fly infestation... so far so good and hopefully that doesn't happen! Thanks for all the great questions! Have fun learning about dunder!
Yes, of course! That’s referencing how much dunder I used in the rum washes. I did two batches with varying amounts of dunder in them. Both were 5 gal batches, so I used 1 gal of dunder in the 20% dunder rum and 2 gals of dunder in 40% dunder rum.
I have it in a 5 gal bucket with the lid loosely placed on top. I keep it on the balcony of my apartment and check on it regularly to make sure there aren't any flies or anything in there.
Thanks so much! My dunder has just been sitting there happily aging since I posted this video... That would make it about 1.5 years old I think, which means I should run another batch of rum with it!
Just went to check my dunder pit after a few months it’s full of worms about a inch long the biggest one but there are hundreds of worms ??? 😮 problem or normal? Also I have all the numbers from two different dunder runs and will pass them along after I distill them the second time
@RobynSmithPhD thank you very much for replying. I made only one's rum. But with bobble plate column. And aged in 30 litres barrel. Rum before aging. It was let's say very boring and hardly any flavours. After aged in barrel, Barrel given some flavours but not impressed. Now i want to try with dunder pit. But my dunder pit failed once. So trying to research more information. And looks like your channel is very good sources for that 🙂
I'm glad to hear you're enjoying my channel! Yeah, using a column will strip a lot of that flavor out, which means you get a much cleaner rum. Can you remove the bubble plates in the column of your still? I think that will help with making your next batch more flavorful!
@RobynSmithPhD I bought copper onion head. Was practising for couple years making whisky. Now filled up 50 litres barrel with bourbon 😁 And is time for rum 😁
@This Blog's NEAT very strong at 68 percent to 55. I used 20 lbs bananas and decided to split to two 5 vers.i let the bananas ripen for two weeks then baked them black. I added pineapple from cans, no preservatives. Not enough sugars I thought so I added brown sugar with molasses. I think it would have been better without pineapple. Next I'm going full bananas! Regards
@@jsEMCsquared oooh that roasted bananas sounds really cool! I’ve seen a recipe where the bananas were coated in sugar before roasting in the oven to really caramelize the bananas. Did the pineapple overpower the banana notes? I’d really like to do a grilled pineapple rum… I think that could taste really fun!
@@RobynSmithPhD grilling might take away some pineapple harshness. Yes I think the pineapple stole some flavor. However, one cannot taste the alcohol at all mixed with banana/pineapple juice! Watch out!
I kept the cuts as close to the same as I could for each of these rums. Are you curious about the flavor profiles of each of my cuts jars? Or are you curious about what my actual cuts were? Trying to remember off the top of my head (I'm out of town and don't have my lab notebook on me), I collected low wines (stripping run) down to around 35% ABV and then collected the spirit at 70% ABV. I took a relatively small foreshots cut because I wanted to keep as much of the funky flavors as I could. But if I were to distill them again based on taste alone, I would have probably taken a little more foreshots on rums that were fermented with 40% dunder. I thought those rums had a little too much of the harsh flavors that came through.
@@RobynSmithPhD hmmmm.. what's your phd in? A question for you. When you look online at the muck pit, it's always disgusting. Why? Are you intending to go commercial?
@@RobynSmithPhD The sweetest most delicious drink i have ever tasted was a cachasa in the Amazonian jungle. A woman had set up her business, and produced this most delicious elixir. On my way to replicate, i am at molasses. They do not hold that special flavour, but rather allow for the production of something even more unique.
@@nothinghere1996 That sounds delightful! It would be so cool to be able to play around with making rum from fresh-pressed sugarcane juice like they do for cachaça. To answer your questions above, I earned my PhD in chemical engineering. And I don't intend to go commercial at this time... maybe it'll be something I consider in the future! Muck pits are filled with a lot of things that make them pretty disgusting... they contain things like lees, dunder, and cane trash and are essentially pools of decaying sludge. They are filled with tons of bacteria!
@@RobynSmithPhD Nice. Organic Chemistry.. then a good rum should be easy for you. Have you tried authentic cachaca? i don't mean the factory made pio 51 garbage. made well, it is by far the most memorable drink i have tasted. The factors are the type of juice and more importantly by a factor of 200%, the type of yeast. I hear you about the muck pit. invert your thinking and you will arrive.
Is interesting all the complexities that you get in the different experiments, but what about the intensity of them? Is the 40% twice as funky as the 20% , does it worth doing it with aged 40% for how powerful it gets? Interesting vids, Please continue experimenting. Pedro from Colombia
That's a great question! I would say that it's not twice as funky... and neither reminds me of a super high-ester Jamaican rum. A lot more experimentation needs to be done to figure that out!
Holy carp !! how do you get roast banana, salt and vinegar chips and bug spray flavours?? Eek!. I am trying to educate my palate. These are not descriptors that would apply to my hobby product. Some toasted barrel staves will definitely improve yours. good luck
Get some staves from a red wine barrel, Cut to length about 12 cm, split so that it will fit into jour demijohn, roast at 190 degrees C for 40 minutes.
Just like anything, tasting takes practice! I find that tasting wheels help a lot when it comes to identifying different tasting notes. So just keep practicing! And thanks for the suggestion! Red wine staves will definitely pair well with the fruitiness of the rums.
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It would have been interesting to have a non-dunder version as a control. I know it's a lot of work to do proper comparisons so we appreciate your efforts anyway.
I had the same idea once I finished these experiments! I'm about to start another round of dunder experiments and I'm going to make sure to do a batch without any dunder. So stay tuned!
Outstanding experimentation!
I just finished distilling my first rum (Panela, Molasses and Omega Brett Blend #3), and made a large enough ferment to go through 5 stripping runs. The first was virgin, but the remaining runs got a gallon of fresh dunder, including the final spirit run. I'd say it's fairly decent, though I also went deeper than I should into the tails.
Now I have 16 liters of dunder made up of both the stillage and the trub from the bottom of the fermenter. I'm getting excited to give this another go!
Just came across your channel earlier today and quickly subscribed!
That's very cool that you used the Omega Brett Blend #3! How did the fermentation go with that? I haven't done any rums with dunder in the still, however, I'm planning to soon! Thanks for subscribing!
@@RobynSmithPhD fermentation was good. I under pitched with just 2 packs, and at 33°C. The fermenter was covered, but outdoors without additional heat. Fermentation time was 17 days. 1.070sg, 1.003fg
That's amazing! I've never been able to get a rum wash that dry, but I think that's because of all the unfermentable sugars in molasses (I use all molasses for the sugar source).
Great video, would love to see a full fermentation and destilling video showcasing your recipe and methods.
I'll work on that!
Ok, I am super excited to stumble on your page tonight, this is the type of content I like to see.
Thanks so much!!
More questions than answers, but loved it as always!
I know, still so many questions!
Fun experiment! Thanks for taking the time. I need a smaller vessel so I can go down the rabbits hole with you.
I have a feeling there will be a lot more of these experiments haha
I'm not ready to start my home distillation journey quite yet (just retired from fuel ethanol), but am so glad I found this channel.
Always thought I was a gin guy, but after a trip to Puerto Rico and my wife's stint in the Caribbean, rum seems like a fun challenge.
I'll be back in about a year. 😀
I'm glad you found my channel too! Have you started dabbling with home brewing?
@@RobynSmithPhD I got out my notebook and my first batch was Dec 26 1985 with the book: The Complete Joy of Home Brewing by Charlie Papazian. Just gonna say, IPA's have come a long way.
I kind of stopped when microbreweries and work took off, so I could now find and afford good beer plus it was time for a new challenge. Now, A couple years devoted to making a really good rum seems like a good use of my time.
This is great. New 'shiner - loads of really interesting stuff on your channel! Cheers!
Thanks so much! I hope it's helpful to you!
interesting! I'm currently fermenting a 30% 18 month old dunder batch, also slowww fermentation. Hope you'll keep a bucket and do a long aged video someday. Cheers!
I still have a bucket! So I definitely will do another batch with it!
Fascinating episode! The potential of live Dunder in the fermentation seems too great, to just add to the Still as some do. As always, I appreciate your scientific approach. Its never enough to Know, but to Know why.
I agree! I think the microbes in the dunder allow even more flavor to be produced during fermentation rather than just adding dunder into the still. It seems like my dunder experiments might be never ending haha
Really interesting videos! Are you only using dunder in your fermentations? I have only been using dunder in my spirit runs, never had the guts to introduce live dunder to my fermentations :D
It would be really cool to see a comparison between dunder in fermentation and dunder in spirit run.
Thanks so much! Yes, I'm just using dunder in my fermentations, but I would really like to do that side-by-side comparison. I think my next batch of rums will be one with dunder in the fermentation, one with dunder in the spirit run, and one with both! How much dunder do you add to your spirit run?
Great I´m really looking forward to see your results! :)
I have only tried with 20% so far and compared to my very first run without any dunder at all it made a huge difference! Sure some of the difference may be due to me being a better distilller now compared to what I was during the first run, but I do believe that the biggest difference lies in the dunder.
I noticed a great difference the very second I poured the dunder into the low wines, a bit funky smelling low wine combined with some fruity and some almost cheesy dunder instantly hit my nose with that well known rum aroma.
@@RobynSmithPhD
@@stefanleijon9637 awesome! I’ll try 20% and see how that compares to 20% in the fermentation! Stay tuned!
@@RobynSmithPhD Sweet Im looking forward to it :) But I actually realized that I have used dunder in the fermentation as well, although only fresh straight from the still. But you are using live dunder right? Or what you call muck.
Yes, I'm using live dunder... I don't really consider it muck because it is mostly just stillage, but it definitely blurs the lines between dunder and muck haha.
Great stuff! I have a dunder bucket, but tend to chicken out and use fresh dunder /stillage, appreciate your bravery 😂👍
I never go over 30%, as the ferment stalls, seems to correspond with your findings?
Love from Norway ❤
Interesting that your ferments stall above 30%! That does coincide with what I observed! I think 30% must be the magic number!
Just found your channel today... definitely subscribing. 😀
Haven't done any distilling at all as it's illegal here in Sweden so I'm into beer instead. Might be able to hypothetically leave it to the alcohol fairy. 🤔😂 Been interested in doing a rum for some time.
When ageing the dunder... how long has it been sitting for before you use it?
Thanks so much for subscribing! What kind of beers do you make? The alcohol is very busy over here in the US (haha). My dunder was aging for 6 months!
@@RobynSmithPhD I'm sharing the hobby with a friend and we mostly brew pale ales. But we have an oatmeal stout almost ready for bottling, we also did an awesome raspberry wheat a few weeks ago. So we're not really stuck on one type.
We're actually making our biggest brew tomorrow, 55 litres for his upcoming wedding. I'll be making a "hard seltzer" with passion fruit as well.
So now you have to start experimenting with blending aged and new dunder for the perfect rum? 😀
@@kristoffer-robinlotze7273 mmmm I love oatmeal stouts! That's so fun! I made a rye whiskey for my sister's wedding and it was such a cool thing to have!
Now I have to make a new batch of rum with even older dunder! But yes, I definitely need to play around with blending the batches!
@@RobynSmithPhD I'm not a stout guy but it'll be interesting to taste this one. 😀
Looking forward to upcoming videos. 😀
These experiments are always great fun. As for aging, dare I suggest a red clay kvevri? 😋
Wow, I was not expecting that suggestion for aging!
Haha Scott you never disappoint! After a couple of vintages fermenting and aging wine in a concrete tank, I've really wanted to try aging spirits in a small concrete tank!
@@jessealexander4329 That could be very interesting! What effect does the concrete have on the wine? Does it impact the wine in a similar way as clay?
@@RobynSmithPhD I did a trial with chardonnay in stainless steel and concrete, treaded the same as much as possible... The concrete chard was much more fruit forward on the nose and palate with a soft round mouth feel. I've also aged unoaked cab franc in stainless and concrete. It seems to make the fruit more dark and dense rather than bright red fruit, also is a little more dense on the nose moving to more fresh dirt coffee blackberries. I think all of these things are probably a result of entrained O2 and micro ox coming through the walls, effecting fermentation and aging.
@@jessealexander4329 that sounds delicious! Yeah, it must be the fact that the wine can breathe in the concrete. It would be very cool to see how that impacts spirits!
That video was rum porn to my ears. Don't worry Jerry its her relationship with rum that is doin it to me. The bug spray is the business when ageing, it adds both tropical flavours and rich dark cherry flavours. Like you mentioned I'm one of those weaker spirits that are not game to do live dunder fermentation instead I boil my dunder with the previous trub and add that to the fermenter. As for aging I would suggest three months on US white oak and then a month on used sherry cask. You can get both in cube form online and just drop six or seven cubes per liter. If you ask I could send you my ebay links for these but its probably cheaper and easier in the US then here in Oz.
If you feel you want it to mellow then leave jars open and put some material over the top to stop bugs. Compost flies and the dreaded vinegar fly can destroy your drink. You might lose a little to angels but its worth it.
If you want it sweeter and richer then go 52% in the jars or if want it more spicy then go 60%. I wouldn't go higher then that for a rum. In fact with the bug spray factor proof down to 55% or below. When your proof down be careful not to proof down to quickly. I know this sound silly but there is some real chemistry behind it, Saponification reactions can occur if you proof down too quickly or to hot and its bad. think soap, vinegar and methanol flavours. Just keep both water and rum cool and mix slowly.
also if you have too much funkiness (think 14 year olds socks that he has worn all week) char a few pieces of wood if you can, blow torch or gas stove. It will filter some the longer chain fatty acids that refuse to esterferfy (dont think thats a word, but it is a thing, think thats a sign ive had too much rum). 🙂
Wow, thanks for all the suggestions! I'm glad to hear that the bug spray note ages well! Where do you order your staves from? I'd like to check that out!
i just did a rum. i used my dunder in fermenting. i went about 1/3 dunder in my wash, half a gallon of molassas and two packs of brown sugar. might have overshot on the gravity. my meter broke so i winged it. fermenting along. taking longer than i expected. also used original yeast, so maybe that's why it's taken so long to kick off. but it's working now.
I would really like to propagate my own yeast and use that for some rum fermentations too!
Hello! I just found your channel and have really enjoyed your content. Question regarding your finished gravity. Do you know what your PH was? Did you use Glucoamolyse to convert the complex sugars to simple sugars?
Keep up the good work!
I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying my content! I don’t know what the pH was… it’s possible that I recorded it, but I’m not sure off the top of my head. And I didn’t use any enzymes in the fermentation. I accepted that the molasses wouldn’t ferment out dry and I was okay with that. Do you use enzymes in your rum washes?
@@RobynSmithPhD
I do use glucoamolyse and it ferments out dry every time, but I also haven't used dunder yet. I know that the dunder adds quite a bit of acidity to the wash and was just curious if yours stopped fermenting because of a PH crash or if it stopped because it fermented out all the simple sugars and left the complex sugars behind. I would imagine that it was due to a PH crash and not a sugar issue due to your final gravity was rather high and the fact that dunder brings in the high acidity.
Also, I understand that you posted this video a year ago and I can't even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday let alone what I did to a wash 12 months ago 🤣
Thanks for the reply!
@@LuckyD13 I think you're right that the pH impacted how much the wash actually fermented... my washes that used 20% dunder were able to ferment out a lot lower than the washes with 40% dunder. So my guess is that it was the pH and/or the competing microbes (since I used live dunder)... like anything, it was probably a combo of both. I wonder if my washes using 20% dunder would ferment out dry with the addition of glucoamylase! It's definitely something to look into!
@@RobynSmithPhD without checking PH, I think it would be hard to pinpoint the reason for it to not be fermenting completely. Due to the fact that as the wash ferments, the PH drops and stops the yeast from performing, there would be both complex sugars and simple sugars that the yeast has not consumed. So I would guess that it is a PH issue that is keeping the finished gravity so high, and if the PH is raised, it would then need the glucoamolyse to convert the complex sugars for a completely dry fermentation. . But this is all just speculation on my part. I also don't know how the live microbes from the dunder changes the fermentation with regards to the yeast doing its job. I'll give it a shot myself and see what happens!
Keep up the good work. We need more people in this hobby.
@@LuckyD13 I plan to get a pH meter that I feel confident in... I currently use the strips, which means I'm going based off of color and I'm never totally confident in my reading because of how the dark color of my molasses wash impacts the color of the strips. The other microbes provide competition for the yeast that I pitch (distillers yeast) and that can slow down and even halt fermentation due to a number of different things. Lemme know how using live dunder impacts your fermentations! And thanks! This is a great hobby to have!
So always aged. Got it lol.
It would have been even more interesting to let it age with oak chips... 😉
I working on that right now!
In my reading about making whisky, they say that lactobacillus gives a butterscotch, butter or creamy flavor. I haven't tried yet but I have some dried yogurt culture that I'm thinking about trying in a fermentation. The books say some whisky distilleries add lacto to the fermention on purpose. Bug spray sounds kind of scary though. Heads maybe?
You're right that lactobacillus can add some nice creamy/butterscotch notes and some distilleries might use yeast blends that include some lacto spp. However, lacto can also result in some undesirable flavors and is sometimes seen as a spoilage microbe. You just need to be mindful of how much lacto you're introducing! Let me know the results if you add in a yogurt culture!
And I think the bug spray notes are mostly coming from the high ABV, but it's possible that I should have taken a slightly larger heads cut.
Another way of getting buttery flavours is to warm up your mash to 50-60 degrees Celsius. Let it cool down naturally overnight, then do your stripping run.
Butter for days!
@@golly181 I didn’t know that! Thanks for the tip! I wonder why that’s the case 🤔
I boil the dunder with a little water before adding molasses. I want the acids that the bugs have produced, not the bugs themselves competing with the bread yeast I use. I correct pH before pitching, but only up to the low 5s and check/adjust during fermentation so it doesn't go below 5.
I have thought about pitching some 'live' dunder as fermentation is winding down, or even pitching a little Kveik near the end to dig for more fruity esters.
I bet pitching some live dunder at the end of fermentation would cause the yeast to upregulate ester production! Let me know if you try that and how it turns out! I've never worked with kveik... I typically use distillers yeast for my rum ferments, but I wonder how a molasses wash fermented with kveik would taste! What made you choose bread yeast for fermentation?
@@RobynSmithPhD It just so happens that a dunder run is winding down now (1.018-ish, they never get to .000) and have some new growth flora in my dunder from a catch jar I had in the garden last week. I'll toss a bit in now and see what happens.
A couple forum posts strongly recommended bread yeast for rum so I've always used King Arthur's or Red Star bread yeast. DADY for corn, and 1118 for neutral. ABV from a rum wash isn't that high anyway and I suspect that bread yeasts are more tolerant of difficult conditions and warm temperatures. If fermentation stops short I hit it with a good toss of DADY to dry it out.
I'm new to kveik, haven't run it yet but have been reading and asking questions, anxious to give it a try. In Jesse's (StillIt) most recent Patreon QnA I asked about using kveik for rum and he said to expect dried fruit flavors, not bright and citrus. I got a separate text reply from a guy on Patreon but don't have it handy right now. He said "Do it."
My rum washes also finish in the 1.013-1.018 range at the lowest. It's just the nature of using molasses!
I have also seen bread yeast recommended for rum washes, but I can't remember if the recommendation was accompanied by an explanation as to why bread yeast was better than DADY. I wonder if it's slightly slower than DADY and therefore allows for more flavor development. I've always used DADY, but that's just because I have a big bag on hand.
I second the person who told you to go for it with the kveik yeast!
@@RobynSmithPhD Yes, there are a lot of solids and dissolved organic bits in molasses.
Kveik is coming but too many irons in the fire just now.
@@RobynSmithPhD bread yeast is made using molasses as the nutrient, so it probably feels right at home making rum
Hi Robyn. Another awesome video! I am just in learning phase of all this. I have watched several of your great videos as well as some by others. Dunder is a daunting concept for me. I love rum, but never knew the kind of Island funk that went into making it. From your microscope video, it looks like the only thing stopping it from killing someone outright is the fact it's distilled. What is the difference between fermenting with dunder and distilling with dunder? Would you ever, for example, use aged dunder in the fermentation and then fresh dunder in the distilling process? What would you consider a "deal breaker" with your dunder? How funky would be too funky? Like if you saw a trout jumping in it or something 😂
Thank you so much! I'm glad to hear you enjoy the videos! Don't let dunder overwhelm you... it's simply the stillage leftover after distillation no matter what anyone tells you. Although my dunder bucket includes some lees from my fermentations. It's not really something that's studied anymore, so there seem to be a lot of unknowns and even more folklore about it. Muck is what I find daunting!
I don't *think* dunder would kill anyone, but it would probably make you sick. Still, I would not advise consuming it!
The difference between fermenting and distilling with dunder is when the dunder is added. Adding it during fermentation allows any microbes that are in the dunder to participate in fermentation. Also, the chemical composition of the dunder will have an effect on fermentation. This will impact the flavors produced during fermentation and the alcohol yield. When you add dunder during distillation, those microbes aren't able to participate in fermentation at all. The additional flavors that you get from distilling with dunder is coming directly from the dunder. So ultimately, distilling with dunder allows for more controlled flavor addition, while fermenting with dunder creates less predictable flavor addition. You could totally do both! I'm just not sure exactly what the outcome would be.
How funky is too funky? Hahaha great question! I think I would have to dump the dunder bucket if the smell was just absolutely awful and/or if there was a fruit fly infestation... so far so good and hopefully that doesn't happen!
Thanks for all the great questions! Have fun learning about dunder!
@@RobynSmithPhD Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions!
@@gordlockwood1213 of course!
hi ryan
Can you explain what you mean by 40% or 20%?
Is Dunder 40% or 20% alcohol?
Yes, of course! That’s referencing how much dunder I used in the rum washes. I did two batches with varying amounts of dunder in them. Both were 5 gal batches, so I used 1 gal of dunder in the 20% dunder rum and 2 gals of dunder in 40% dunder rum.
How did you keep your dunder for 6 months? As in where and in what?
I have it in a 5 gal bucket with the lid loosely placed on top. I keep it on the balcony of my apartment and check on it regularly to make sure there aren't any flies or anything in there.
Hi Robyn, I've been watching your whole dunder series - fantastic job! I'm wondering how the aging is going/
Thanks so much! My dunder has just been sitting there happily aging since I posted this video... That would make it about 1.5 years old I think, which means I should run another batch of rum with it!
Just went to check my dunder pit after a few months it’s full of worms about a inch long the biggest one but there are hundreds of worms ??? 😮 problem or normal? Also I have all the numbers from two different dunder runs and will pass them along after I distill them the second time
Oh boy, are they worms or maggots? I would say that's not great and you probably don't want to use it... Out of curiosity, how does it smell?
Hello there.
Can you tell please distilling method.
It was potstill or bobble plates?
Thanks regards
It was a pot still! Each rum was double distilled using the same copper pot still and the same distillation cuts were taken.
@RobynSmithPhD thank you very much for replying.
I made only one's rum. But with bobble plate column. And aged in 30 litres barrel. Rum before aging. It was let's say very boring and hardly any flavours. After aged in barrel,
Barrel given some flavours but not impressed.
Now i want to try with dunder pit. But my dunder pit failed once. So trying to research more information. And looks like your channel is very good sources for that 🙂
I'm glad to hear you're enjoying my channel! Yeah, using a column will strip a lot of that flavor out, which means you get a much cleaner rum. Can you remove the bubble plates in the column of your still? I think that will help with making your next batch more flavorful!
@RobynSmithPhD I bought copper onion head.
Was practising for couple years making whisky.
Now filled up 50 litres barrel with bourbon 😁
And is time for rum 😁
That's great! You should get a lot more flavors with the onion head!
How do you get all those flavors? I think you named all of them!
I made my first banana pineapple rum.
That's awesome! How did the rum turn out? It takes a lot of practice to identify all of the aromas and flavors!
@This Blog's NEAT very strong at 68 percent to 55. I used 20 lbs bananas and decided to split to two 5 vers.i let the bananas ripen for two weeks then baked them black.
I added pineapple from cans, no preservatives.
Not enough sugars I thought so I added brown sugar with molasses.
I think it would have been better without pineapple.
Next I'm going full bananas!
Regards
@@jsEMCsquared oooh that roasted bananas sounds really cool! I’ve seen a recipe where the bananas were coated in sugar before roasting in the oven to really caramelize the bananas. Did the pineapple overpower the banana notes? I’d really like to do a grilled pineapple rum… I think that could taste really fun!
@@RobynSmithPhD grilling might take away some pineapple harshness. Yes I think the pineapple stole some flavor. However, one cannot taste the alcohol at all mixed with banana/pineapple juice! Watch out!
@@jsEMCsquared Hahaha that's why tiki cocktails are so dangerous! They're potent, but they don't taste like it!
i am curious about your cuts. i notice a bitterness comes in, right before the tails begin. the foreshots are where must of the flavour comes from.
I kept the cuts as close to the same as I could for each of these rums. Are you curious about the flavor profiles of each of my cuts jars? Or are you curious about what my actual cuts were? Trying to remember off the top of my head (I'm out of town and don't have my lab notebook on me), I collected low wines (stripping run) down to around 35% ABV and then collected the spirit at 70% ABV. I took a relatively small foreshots cut because I wanted to keep as much of the funky flavors as I could. But if I were to distill them again based on taste alone, I would have probably taken a little more foreshots on rums that were fermented with 40% dunder. I thought those rums had a little too much of the harsh flavors that came through.
@@RobynSmithPhD hmmmm.. what's your phd in? A question for you. When you look online at the muck pit, it's always disgusting. Why?
Are you intending to go commercial?
@@RobynSmithPhD The sweetest most delicious drink i have ever tasted was a cachasa in the Amazonian jungle. A woman had set up her business, and produced this most delicious elixir. On my way to replicate, i am at molasses. They do not hold that special flavour, but rather allow for the production of something even more unique.
@@nothinghere1996 That sounds delightful! It would be so cool to be able to play around with making rum from fresh-pressed sugarcane juice like they do for cachaça.
To answer your questions above, I earned my PhD in chemical engineering. And I don't intend to go commercial at this time... maybe it'll be something I consider in the future! Muck pits are filled with a lot of things that make them pretty disgusting... they contain things like lees, dunder, and cane trash and are essentially pools of decaying sludge. They are filled with tons of bacteria!
@@RobynSmithPhD Nice. Organic Chemistry.. then a good rum should be easy for you.
Have you tried authentic cachaca? i don't mean the factory made pio 51 garbage. made well, it is by far the most memorable drink i have tasted. The factors are the type of juice and more importantly by a factor of 200%, the type of yeast.
I hear you about the muck pit. invert your thinking and you will arrive.
Is interesting all the complexities that you get in the different experiments, but what about the intensity of them? Is the 40% twice as funky as the 20% , does it worth doing it with aged 40% for how powerful it gets? Interesting vids, Please continue experimenting. Pedro from Colombia
That's a great question! I would say that it's not twice as funky... and neither reminds me of a super high-ester Jamaican rum. A lot more experimentation needs to be done to figure that out!
Holy carp !! how do you get roast banana, salt and vinegar chips and bug spray flavours?? Eek!. I am trying to educate my palate. These are not descriptors that would apply to my hobby product. Some toasted barrel staves will definitely improve yours. good luck
Get some staves from a red wine barrel, Cut to length about 12 cm, split so that it will fit into jour demijohn, roast at 190 degrees C for 40 minutes.
Just like anything, tasting takes practice! I find that tasting wheels help a lot when it comes to identifying different tasting notes. So just keep practicing! And thanks for the suggestion! Red wine staves will definitely pair well with the fruitiness of the rums.